The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Camelot poised to survive I-44 expansion:

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Camelot will remain despite I-44 widening
By TOM DROEGE World Staff Writer
12/3/2006

With its broken windows and crumbling facade, the abandoned Camelot Hotel in Tulsa looks ripe for the wrecking ball.

Neighbors living next to the tattered structure crossed their fingers, hoping the approaching expansion of Interstate 44 would be the perfect reason to knock it down.

The hotel, along with more than 270 other properties set to be uprooted, sits within a stone's throw of the roaring highway.

But the old hotel is not going anywhere, says the Oklahoma Department of Transportation. And people living in the area are upset.

"It brings the whole neighborhood down," said Gary Buitrago, who can see the Camelot from his backyard. "It really is an eyesore."

About two weeks ago police arrested five men in connection with burglary and vandalism of the hotel. Witnesses saw objects being thrown from its upper windows.

Police say they've been called to the 330-room hotel several times in the last few years to deal with trespassing, burglaries and prowler reports.

"It's a huge distraction from the rebuilding of Brookside," said Cary Eskridge, who lives a few blocks away.

Buitrago, Eskridge and others living in the area were hoping eminent domain might do something they considered good - remove the Camelot. After all, the shadowy structure looms just north of I-44 on Peoria Avenue.

Turns out only a small piece of the hotel's land will be needed.

"The right of way barely grazes it," said ODOT spokesman Cole Perryman. "I know there has been a lot of talk about it, but right now it is being minimally impacted."

So the Camelot, in all its former glory, will apparently go unscathed.

A glitzy landmark in the 1960s and 1970s, the hotel became famous for hosting Elvis Presley and Richard Nixon when they made trips through Tulsa.

Built in the 1960s to resemble a medieval castle -- complete with a moat, drawbridge and turrets -- the hotel became a popular spot for banquets and galas, honeymoons and special occasions.

Its heydays are long gone. In 1996 the Tulsa City-County Health Department condemned the building for health and safety code violations.

Marharishi Ayur-Ved University, an institution that teaches transcendental meditation, bought the building in 1993 for $1.15 million with intentions of transforming the property into what it called a "holistic, meditation-friendly" hotel.

Representatives of Marharishi Ayur-Ved University could not be reached for comment.

Land acquisition firms recently sent letters to about 53 property owners between Riverside Drive and Peoria Avenue on the north side of I-44.

These properties are part of what ODOT calls the first phase of a 272-property "total take" required to make way for the I-44 widening from Yale Avenue to Riverside Drive.

April 2007 is the goal for buying up those first phase properties and relocating occupants.

Tom Droege 581-8361
tom.droege@tulsaworld.com

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What does the future hold for this space?  Proximity to I-44 provides visibility and accessibiity while the location is a natural anchor for south Brookside.  Given a proper "vision," the property could be a real boon for development in the area.  

And what in the world is Marharishi Ayur-Ved University?  Geesh...this property should be leveled..yesterday.

Yeah it should be demolished, that building is completely falling apart.  But what should go in its place?

Unless the City can come up with a plan for the entire area between I44 and 41st, Peoria to Riverside, the property will continue to be a negative impression as the gateway to Tulsa.

Once a glitzy landmark? Maybe to Ainsley Perault....Could it be all that asbestos scares any developer from resurrecting the property?

Perhaps it could be bought. Come on 5013c's! Buy it! The Maharaja surely has a price.

Did someone offend these spiritual Asians and now they refuse to talk. Sure appears that way every time there is an article in the newspaper.

Private property rules....for a while longer.

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Originally posted by SXSW

Yeah it should be demolished, that building is completely falling apart.  But what should go in its place?

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A park....from Riverside to Peoria and from I 44 to 41st. Likelihood? Zilch.

asbestos is flame retardant, not flame proof.  torch it.

I always thought it would be a good location for a midrise apartment complex. perhaps a condo. say 10 stories, 100 units. If Churches was gone a low rise parking garage in the rear could be built. It would have a nice "overlook" of Riverside and Brookside both. Possibly even put in some ground floor retail spaces. It would make a nice high density residential/commercial location. Right off the interstate, easy access to Brookside and Riverside. If I were given a choice between a nice place on south Memorial or a nice place on Brookside, Brookside would be my choice every time.

Interesting how many Tulsan's seem to want to level concrete and or historic buildings.  I just watched Fantastic Tulsa Films, and the number of Art Deco and nicely designed buildings that were razed downtown and turned into parking lots and other plain ugly buildings is just not right.

Tulsa Historical Society seems to be a place to look at photos of things that once were.  Thought they were there to preserve and protect existing structures.  

Never understood why buildings East of the Mississippi seem to of with stood the test of time.  But in this area, some want to tear down anything that is a decade or more old.  

Tulse is beginning to resemble the theme of the Movie where "all restaurants are now Taco Bell."  

Camelot Inn lots of memories from that location.  Remember playing rock n roll music in the ballrooms for groups such as the Young Republicans.  

And the wonderful restaurant there that served a giant German Pancake with lemon wedges, yummy.  They also featured an awesome buffet with carved Prime Rib served with horseradish and sour cream sauce.

Always an exciting time at the Camelot Inn, I recall taking the tour when Randy Wheeler's dad I think his name was David Wheeler and his partner opened the Hotel.  We were shown the Suites on the top floor that provided a wonderful view of Tulsa.  Wheeler had a pop machine in their clubhouse at their home which were a nickel in the 70's.

Believe the pay at the gigs at the Camelot we played paid $50, that was ten dollars more than take home for a 40 hour work week at minimum wage then. Ridge Bond booked those gigs for us.  I always stopped in and ordered a German Pancake after we played.  

What happened to the Economic Development division of the Chamber that promoted Tulsa to outside developers wanting to invest here?  Believe Micky Thompson was in charge of that at one time.

The current owner, despite commentary to the contrary, is looking to make a buck. The school is one of those "pay us money, come to our seminars, get right with the world in only 12 steps" kinda places. It is not affiliated with any major religions. They have mentioned selling prices before but they were quite large. Bets are that they wanted I-44 to take it out just as much as the neighbors did.


I would like to see it remodeled but I doubt it will happen.

I have been told by a very reliable source that the asbetos mitigation problem is what prevents the Camelot from either being rehab'd or demolished. This source also recounted several disturbing blood spots on floors and walls.

The Abundant Life building is in the same boat (asbestos-wise), nothing will happen with these structures until the property they are sitting on becomes more valuable.

actually, watching the abundant life building go up in smoke would be worth paying to see.

"...nothing will happen with these structures until the property they are sitting on becomes more valuable"

This is the saddest thing I think I've heard when it comes to Tulsa.  There are probably hundreds of buildings around town that this mantra applies to.  Since property values in Tulsa do nothing but stagnate, there are very few private developers that want to INVEST in building here.  I really can't blame them.  No wonder we need public tax dollars for just about everything we want to do as a city.  I'm getting ill...

I say remodel it, maintain the theme. Kinda like the "Medieval Times" restaurants/shows. Buy out the castle of muskogee and move those people to the camelot. If food supplies are low, send armies to pillage brookside.

Why would anyone spend more money to remove the asbestos in the Camelot than it would cost to build a new hotel?  And then still have to remodel, not to mention the cost to purchase the Camelot in the first place.  Would be far cheaper and easier to build a new hotel in downtown or else where.

I doubt that the property value is going to go up enough in our lifetime to make it worth tearing down.

Best case: the I-44 widening causes the dirt value to go up enough that demolition is feasible to a national company looking for an interstate location.  Continued Brookside renewal + fresh interstate concrete = retailers salivating.  

More likely: It stands till the city tears it down.

I don't think any developer can make a dime on the location because the current owner wants to make a bundle. And they are not in need of selling it.

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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

I don't think any developer can make a dime on the location because the current owner wants to make a bundle. And they are not in need of selling it.

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Yes to all of this thread. It serves as a roadmap for why buildings decay and are eventually levelled in this city. Kind of like global warming. Once it starts it perpetuates itself. It will take a huge economic event to change the dynamics.

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Originally posted by TheArtist

Why would anyone spend more money to remove the asbestos in the Camelot than it would cost to build a new hotel?  And then still have to remodel, not to mention the cost to purchase the Camelot in the first place.  Would be far cheaper and easier to build a new hotel in downtown or else where.

I doubt that the property value is going to go up enough in our lifetime to make it worth tearing down.

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Asbestos remediation would happen if you remodel or tear it down....Either way it has to be delt with.....

Asbestos is not a problem as long as it isn't "friable", meaning torn, frayed, disturbed, etc. to the point that particles become airborne.  Can't it just be covered up in a remodel?  I'm sure there are small pockets where it would have to be removed to allow for structural changes, but if you kept it as a hotel, wouldn't the basic layout be the same?

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Originally posted by inteller

asbestos is flame retardant, not flame proof.  torch it.

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I second that. [;)]

A good primer on the Camelot, it's current owner, and other similar ventures (Part 1 of a 4 part series):

http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm120.html

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Originally posted by DM

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Originally posted by inteller

asbestos is flame retardant, not flame proof.  torch it.

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I second that. [;)]

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Doesn't burning asbestos release toxic fumes?  I certainly wouldn't want to be within 100 miles if it were burned.

I think people are too quick to presume tearing down is the best alternative when asbestos is present.  Breadburner is right--you have to be just as careful with the asbestos whether you tear down the building, or encapsulate it.  And if you tear down the building, you still have the problem of disposing of the asbestos.

I am not saying that Camelot should necessarily be preserved, but I don't think the asbestos should be the deciding factor.

The price tag is the deciding factor. North of 4 million....

I'm only 20, so I have no fond "moments" at the Camelot, but I have always, always looked at it in marvel, even as a five-year old:  Why was it run-down?  Why didn't somebody do something to fix it?  I wonder what used to happen there... It must have been magical.

I find myself asking these same questions today, and I know now that the Camelot was just the biggest still-standing example of what people in Tulsa think about history and architecture: it's not worth time or money to take care of things now or restore old buildings.  
Grandeur, schmandeur.  
Presevation?  That's what you do to fruits in cans, right?  
Pride?  It comes and goes...

Reading the replies on this topic only confirm my thoughts:  Tulsans just don't care.
Has anyone else noticed that the only thing mentioned in this discussion are in terms of dollars and cents?  While that counts for a lot, i.e. determining who can do what with the property, it shouldn't be the overriding factor in this hotel's storied life!  Once host to Elvis, President Richard Nixon, a British parliamentarian and other high-profile people, the Camelot isn't something that can be measured solely in dollars.  And neither can its refurbishment.

Think of the headlines:  Legend of Camelot Lives On...  Think of the memories yet to be made in this hotel that hasn't lived out its life yet...  Think of the views of downtown;  or, for all you money-mongers:
Imagine the proft to be made, the money it could bring in by those people wishing to relive their experiences at the hotel, by all the people visiting Tulsa who wish to stay in Brookside, by everyone who passes by on I-44, or by those who choose to host conventions there.  Think of the potential development in the area that could come from its rehabilitation (yet, can most Tulsans see potential in anything?).  Who would want to stay in a castle?  I know I would.

Building hotels isn't a cheap job unless they're just that: cheap hotels.  Tulsa has enough of these.  Yes, a Renaissance was built, but it looks like a cheap knock-off lego building with no charm, personality, history or elegance (what can one expect from a Hammonds?).  It has no real presence; and even though the Camelot isn't in use, hence the dilapidation, it still has more "presence" than any new hotel development has or could have.
So the owner is asking $3 million for it.  Negotiate!  And guess what?  It costs about $1.3 million just to build a Mazzio's; and up to $2.9 million for a Sonic Drive In.  Seriously, people.  Sonic.  What would you rather see there Tulsa, another parking lot (you know, that way people could park there and ride a  trolley to Brookside!  Novel idea!  Woo hoo!  Wonderful use of historic space!)?  Or better yet, another nice, new strip mall?  Yes, the model of the 71st Street corridor is exactly what should be used for redeveloping this once glorious hotel in a mature neighborhood.  Bravo.

Is it just me? But I do not find the Camelot Hotel to be in any way a desirable or attractive building. I am usually one of the people who love historic buildings, and can see value and worth in some that other can't. I love the Abundant Life building for instance.  But the Camelot to me is just boring and ugly.  The sign on the top of it looks tacky.  I dont know how you could remodel it to make it attractive? Perhaps make it 70s kisch?  That could be done on the inside, even have the people at the front desk wearing polyester suits and those wide ties lol.  Keep the same retro, "faux castle" plastic and tin decor etc. But how would you get the outside to look more that way, to make it obviously fun and not just unattractive?  Its not as though the place could be updated to look attractive to modern standards so it would almost have to be retro.

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Originally posted by TheArtist

Is it just me? But I do not find the Camelot Hotel to be in any way a desirable or attractive building. I am usually one of the people who love historic buildings, and can see value and worth in some that other can't. I love the Abundant Life building for instance.  But the Camelot to me is just boring and ugly.  The sign on the top of it looks tacky.  I dont know how you could remodel it to make it attractive? Perhaps make it 70s kisch?  That could be done on the inside, even have the people at the front desk wearing polyester suits and those wide ties lol.  Keep the same retro, "faux castle" plastic and tin decor etc. But how would you get the outside to look more that way, to make it obviously fun and not just unattractive?  Its not as though the place could be updated to look attractive to modern standards so it would almost have to be retro.

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No, it's not just you, Artist.  I agree.  I can see nothing desirable or attractive about that building.  It is ugly and looks cheap and tacky (one could say "a cheap knock-off lego building with no charm, personality, or elegance").

I was surprised to read that it once hosted such high-profile guests.  Was it once the best hotel in Tulsa?  Hard to believe.

DScooter...if it were apathy or we did not care then we would not be posting here....

The Camelot can't be rejuvenated. Recall, the days of romance created it. Those days are history. We live in a different world today.

BTW, they want $5 million.....

I think what's scaring off potential developers of the Camelot is the sheer size of the thing. Developers are more inclined to roll the dice if it's a smaller size.

But the Camelot is so big, it's difficult to come up with a viable financial plan for it.

Cost of energy today has caused many businesses to down size and install high effiency HVAC units.  

Engineers could design zone systems for heating and cooling that unit may be cost effective again.  Having to heat and cool the entire building is out of the question.  

Been in a Wal Mart, K-Mart or other large box type store since the price of energy skyrocketed?  Better wear your coat in cold weather and shorts and a very thin tee-shirt in the hot weather.

Could do as Oral Roberts did with the prayer tower building, and not use finish or use the upper floors of the building until grow developed.  Block the elevator and lock the stair well doors to those floors that are inactive.

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Originally posted by Oil Capital

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Originally posted by TheArtist

Is it just me? But I do not find the Camelot Hotel to be in any way a desirable or attractive building. I am usually one of the people who love historic buildings, and can see value and worth in some that other can't. I love the Abundant Life building for instance.  But the Camelot to me is just boring and ugly.  The sign on the top of it looks tacky.  I dont know how you could remodel it to make it attractive? Perhaps make it 70s kisch?  That could be done on the inside, even have the people at the front desk wearing polyester suits and those wide ties lol.  Keep the same retro, "faux castle" plastic and tin decor etc. But how would you get the outside to look more that way, to make it obviously fun and not just unattractive?  Its not as though the place could be updated to look attractive to modern standards so it would almost have to be retro.

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No, it's not just you, Artist.  I agree.  I can see nothing desirable or attractive about that building.  It is ugly and looks cheap and tacky (one could say "a cheap knock-off lego building with no charm, personality, or elegance").

I was surprised to read that it once hosted such high-profile guests.  Was it once the best hotel in Tulsa?  Hard to believe.

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Althought it was quite a novelty in its day, being one of the first large scale 'themed' hotels I can think of (pre-dates the Excalibur in Vegas by many decades), there were several other hotels in Tulsa that were of a higher class than the Camelot.

I agree that its an eyesore and as it's not histoically or architecturally significant I believe it should be torn down. Doesn't the city of Tulsa have any say in owners allowing a blighted building to just sit there and rot? Can't the owners be fined?

Camelot was better than the best.  

It actually had people that spent money in it.  

Was one of if not the busiest Hotels in the area.

Something that has not been seen in Tulsa in a few decades. This was BC time. Before Casinos.

Wasn't it also in one of those Matt Dillon/SE Hinton movies?  I am thinking Tex.

We should have stronger laws that force owners to maintain structures at least a bit.  At least replace the broken windows.

Whenever I see a teenager who just wrecked the car his parent's bought him, I think they should have a law that if you're too stupid to own something, you shouldn't be allowed to own it. Similar arguments could be made for parenting and home ownership.

At minimum, doing nothing should be a fine-able offense, with a large enough fine that it outweighs any potential future profit from rising property values.

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Originally posted by pmcalk

Wasn't it also in one of those Matt Dillon/SE Hinton movies?  I am thinking Tex.

We should have stronger laws that force owners to maintain structures at least a bit.  At least replace the broken windows.

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Yep, it was Tex- Matt Dillon makes a phone call from a pay phone across the street.

Interesting article on the Camelot's history:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm120.html

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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

DScooter...if it were apathy or we did not care then we would not be posting here....

The Camelot can't be rejuvenated. Recall, the days of romance created it. Those days are history. We live in a different world today.

BTW, they want $5 million.....

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To the contrary, this discussion is really just an outlet for the apathy and general dislike for the property.  

Does it matter that it was created in an era that is no longer here?  Why does that make it less valuable instead of more?  Your statement is a perfect example of the mindset of most other Tulsans.  Instead of treasuring the past, it's just lightly tossed aside for great strip-mall developments and wonderful surface parking.  It shouldn't be this way.

And, btw, they aren't asking for $5 million, as the woman from Maharishi Global (the owner) showed me yesterday, but much closer to what I quoted:  Asking price: $3,500,000.
(Source) (http://"http://www.available.com/classified/get_item.php?id=177#")

The Mayo was purchased for $250,000.

The camelot is not worth over 10x that.

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Originally posted by DScott28604

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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

DScooter...if it were apathy or we did not care then we would not be posting here....

The Camelot can't be rejuvenated. Recall, the days of romance created it. Those days are history. We live in a different world today.

BTW, they want $5 million.....

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To the contrary, this discussion is really just an outlet for the apathy and general dislike for the property.  

Does it matter that it was created in an era that is no longer here?  Why does that make it less valuable instead of more?  Your statement is a perfect example of the mindset of most other Tulsans.  Instead of treasuring the past, it's just lightly tossed aside for great strip-mall developments and wonderful surface parking.  It shouldn't be this way.

And, btw, they aren't asking for $5 million, as the woman from Maharishi Global (the owner) showed me yesterday, but much closer to what I quoted:  Asking price: $3,500,000.
(Source) (http://"http://www.available.com/classified/get_item.php?id=177#")

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Why are you so hostile?  

Yes, a lot of history has happened at this hotel....and in 40 years, people will look at that tacky Renaissance hotel at 71st and say "Wow, think of all the history that's happened here..." because history is bound to happen there one way or another because it's a major hotel in the busiest part of town.  I think the debate on this forum is about "Why hasn't something happened with this building, and if something isn't going to happen, can we please put it out of it's misery."  As it stands, it's a blight on that part of the city, not an asset.  It's not a matter of apathy at all.

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Originally posted by DScott28604

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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

DScooter...if it were apathy or we did not care then we would not be posting here....

The Camelot can't be rejuvenated. Recall, the days of romance created it. Those days are history. We live in a different world today.

BTW, they want $5 million.....

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To the contrary, this discussion is really just an outlet for the apathy and general dislike for the property.  

Does it matter that it was created in an era that is no longer here?  Why does that make it less valuable instead of more?  Your statement is a perfect example of the mindset of most other Tulsans.  Instead of treasuring the past, it's just lightly tossed aside for great strip-mall developments and wonderful surface parking.  It shouldn't be this way.

And, btw, they aren't asking for $5 million, as the woman from Maharishi Global (the owner) showed me yesterday, but much closer to what I quoted:  Asking price: $3,500,000.
(Source) (http://"http://www.available.com/classified/get_item.php?id=177#")

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The point is, it would cost far more money to restore that thing than to just knock it down and build something else, and since it is of no historic or architectural relevance you would be hard pressed to find anyone interested in preservation.

It is a shame that it was let go the way it was, but it happened and unfortunately the building is too far gone to now do anything but knock it down. If anything the currect owners are to blame for letting it get to the state its in.

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Originally posted by DScott28604

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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

DScooter...if it were apathy or we did not care then we would not be posting here....

The Camelot can't be rejuvenated. Recall, the days of romance created it. Those days are history. We live in a different world today.

BTW, they want $5 million.....

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To the contrary, this discussion is really just an outlet for the apathy and general dislike for the property.  

Does it matter that it was created in an era that is no longer here?  Why does that make it less valuable instead of more?  Your statement is a perfect example of the mindset of most other Tulsans.  Instead of treasuring the past, it's just lightly tossed aside for great strip-mall developments and wonderful surface parking.  It shouldn't be this way.

And, btw, they aren't asking for $5 million, as the woman from Maharishi Global (the owner) showed me yesterday, but much closer to what I quoted:  Asking price: $3,500,000.
(Source) (http://"http://www.available.com/classified/get_item.php?id=177#")

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Well then they came down on the price. I would guess the cost of abatement is the diff...

I saw a few very old run-down pics of the Camelot posted here awhile back.  Are there any more pics of the Camelot in its hey-day?

Seems like the only logical end is the city knocking it down and doing the asbestos removal.

What about the historic chicken restraunt?  Any complaints about removing it? ;)

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Originally posted by TheArtist

   Its not as though the place could be updated to look attractive to modern standards so it would almost have to be retro.

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There are many people who would agree that retro is attractive to modern standards, i.e. postmodernism...

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Originally posted by bacjz00

"...nothing will happen with these structures until the property they are sitting on becomes more valuable"

This is the saddest thing I think I've heard when it comes to Tulsa.  There are probably hundreds of buildings around town that this mantra applies to.  Since property values in Tulsa do nothing but stagnate, there are very few private developers that want to INVEST in building here.  I really can't blame them.  No wonder we need public tax dollars for just about everything we want to do as a city.  I'm getting ill...

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Actually, property values in Tulsa are currently holding their value much better than most traditional boom markets such as the west coast.  Property values in California and Arizona have actually been decreasing in many instances in the past year.  Home values in the Tulsa metro area have increased quite a bit in the past 5-7 years.  This being said, the Camelot is priced too high at $3.5 million.  No one will pay that much for it.  The Peace Palace people will eventually either have to come down on their price or renovate the building- the latter of which is likely far more expensive.  The most likely thing to happen is for the current owner to tear the building down themselves.  The lot could be quite valuable being right next to I-44 and so close to Brookside.  I personally would love to see someone with a few extra bucks on hand renovate the hotel into a retro-themed condo/office project with retail on the ground floor.  Unfortunately, that's probably very wishful thinking because that would require Tulsa to suddenly gain citizens with foresight, optimism, and a desire to preserve history.

Overheard an interesting conversation today concerning the Camelot.  Someone told the group that the reason the Camelot sits like it does without any redevelopment is due to the fact it sits on a giant sinkhole.

[B)]

(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p41bc30a380218bdfdf1e2ae3d43e4097/eb1c497d.jpg)

(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p32dc98f42e0a4bc7c8ecc313ed867abd/eb1c4944.jpg)

(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p6b8dd1249d61d927938c8d184ae99694/eb1c4912.jpg)

The broken windows remind me of an oversized advent calendar.  Or a game of Punch-a-Bunch (http://"http://gscentral.net/punch.htm")

Our best bet is for some nutjob to just burn the place down at this point.

This just in:

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From the Tulsa World:
Taylor announces plan to tear down Camelot Hotel


By Staff reports
4/10/2007  1:22 PM


The city is considering a plan to finance the destrution of the dilapidated Camelot Hotel, Mayor Kathy Taylor announced Tuesday.

The Tulsa Industrial Authority is set to vote Wednesday on a loan agreement with building owner, Marharishi Ayur-Ved.

A landmark in the 1960s and 1970s, the hotel became famous for hosting Elvis Presley and Richard Nixon when they made trips through Tulsa.

It was built in the 1960s to resemble a medieval castle, complete with a moat, drawbridge and turrets. The hotel became a popular spot for banquets and galas, honeymoons and special occasions.

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Wondered about all of the news vans out there.

Also here:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6325

It's unfortunate that it could not be renovated.....I think that would be the highest and best use for the future considering whats going on and going to be done in the future.....If the ownner would get real on the price it's a possibilty.....

Anyone know of any websites out there dedicated to the history of the Camelot hotel?

The feller at 'lost tulsa' did a camelot shoot for flickr (http://"http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=camelot+hotel").

Did anyone else hear the rumor that the a friend of the mayor's wants to build a shopping center on that spot?

What's wrong about putting a shopping center there?

I'm sure the neighbors would like a shopping center over a giant obscenely lit convenience store or a vermon infested building

I live at 50th and Quincy, and I definitely would prefer a shopping center over a convenience store or the current sad state of the Camelot...  However, the Bellaire shopping center just across the street seems to be a bit empty, plus the dollar store and Hancock Fabrics are both closing so it will be even more bare soon.  Seems like a shopping center would do little good if they're having so much trouble filling the existing one up with tenants.

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Originally posted by flybriz

I live at 50th and Quincy, and I definitely would prefer a shopping center over a convenience store or the current sad state of the Camelot...  However, the Bellaire shopping center just across the street seems to be a bit empty, plus the dollar store and Hancock Fabrics are both closing so it will be even more bare soon.  Seems like a shopping center would do little good if they're having so much trouble filling the existing one up with tenants.

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Well, the whole retail area there has gotten rather blighted, and I place about 80% of the blame on the condition of the Camelot.  I imagine that if the Camelot came down and a new center were put in it's place, it would help bring the entire area back up.  It's hard to imagine opening a new store in the bellaire center when there is an eyesore across the street.

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Originally posted by tulsa1603

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Originally posted by flybriz

I live at 50th and Quincy, and I definitely would prefer a shopping center over a convenience store or the current sad state of the Camelot...  However, the Bellaire shopping center just across the street seems to be a bit empty, plus the dollar store and Hancock Fabrics are both closing so it will be even more bare soon.  Seems like a shopping center would do little good if they're having so much trouble filling the existing one up with tenants.

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Well, the whole retail area there has gotten rather blighted, and I place about 80% of the blame on the condition of the Camelot.  I imagine that if the Camelot came down and a new center were put in it's place, it would help bring the entire area back up.  It's hard to imagine opening a new store in the bellaire center when there is an eyesore across the street.

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I agree the Camelot is a large source of the "ghettofication" of that intersection.  When everything closes down and turns into Cash Advance stores and Pawn Shops, with your occasional Rent to Own and Prepaid phone place, you know things have gone downhill a bit.

That being said, the entire Brookside area is not going to be able to thrive unless there is an injection of population density in the area.   Stores and businesses don't just magically fill themselves up.  They need a local population to fill them up.  So my point is that the Brookside area needs some infill, perhaps some mid-rise residential, if some of the struggling storefronts are to thrive and for some of the blight to be feasibly replaced.

I dunno about the Camelot property itself.  I think it would be a good retail space.  But further up in the 41st to 36th area there really needs to be some dense infill installed.