The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

If Commissioner Miller & Co. have no better ideas for the Bell's property than a parking lot, cannot Bell's or some citizen's group make the case in a lawsuit that this harms the taxpayers of Tulsa?

There must be something else they have in mind like a grand new entrance or other commercial endeavor.  And how can Miller advocate for the Channels taxpayer subsidy and then claim Bell's is an unfair subsidy?

Glad you started this thread...

There are several houses on the corner across from Bells that are being taken out for what I understand to be an office Building...

If the residents of that neighborhood were upset because of the noise at Bells.... Maybe they will be pleased to see an ocean of tail lights and bumpers as they have their morning coffee.?

Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I'm starting to think Ms Miller knows of someone wanting to open up in Tulsa and they needed Bells to be gone.

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I'm starting to think Ms Miller knows of someone wanting to open up in Tulsa and they needed Bells to be gone.

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This isn't going to turn into another Disneyland thread, is it?[;)]

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Originally posted by Chicken Little

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I'm starting to think Ms Miller knows of someone wanting to open up in Tulsa and they needed Bells to be gone.

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This isn't going to turn into another Disneyland thread, is it?[;)]

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Nope, nor six flags.

Theories:
1. Someone else says they can run Bell's better than Robbie can. They have money to invest. Bell's gets evicted, is forced to leave the lion's share of their assets, making it easy for the new owners to be up and running by the new season. (ie Casa Bonita/Casa Viva)

2. Miller's "secret plan" mentioned in the paper several days ago that is supposed to be announced this month features a riverside amusement park and the investors believe Tulsa can't support two of them.

3. The county wants to put in an semi-upscale hotel/convention space adjacent to the expo center.

4. I got more but I'll stop here.

Keep going.....sounds plausible so far

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

The county wants to put in an semi-upscale hotel/convention space adjacent to the expo center.

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Oops...

(excerpted in part from a 12/31/2004 article:)

Ralph L. Jones Jr.'s management company will be paid a $215,000 settlement because Tulsa County officials will not allow the Tulsa developer to build a second hotel at the fairgrounds.

Records show that American Management Inc. had an option to lease 2.5 acres for a second hotel on a mutually agreeable site near Gate 12 on 21st Street. But fairgrounds officials and AMI could never agree on a specific location.

Jones owns and operates the Microtel that was built at the fairgrounds in 1999.

"Granted, it said in a mutually agreeable place, but mutually agreeable means you can't be unreasonable, and the fairgrounds said we don't want to build a hotel anywhere out here," said Tulsa County Public Facilities Authority member Bob Dick. "I believe in good faith. I think when we signed the original contract, that was probably what was envisioned. I think that contract had some value and I didn't want to test it in a court of law."

AMI president Chris Knapp informed Expo Square in March 2003 that the ideal site for a second hotel would be in front of the Exposition Center on a long, narrow strip of land encompassing most of the parking lot.

Dick said having a hotel built in front of the Exposition Center's facade wouldn't work for aesthetic reasons.

"I just didn't think it was in our best interest to give up 21/2 acres of prime parking right next to the Expo building," said Expo Square President Denny Tuttle.

The May 1997 agreement predated a master plan that was later developed for Expo Square that focuses on it being a family entertainment and events center with an emphasis on livestock facilities. Since then, Dick said, the whole landscape at the fairgrounds has changed.

"The highest, best use of land, I don't feel would have been another hotel. That's kind of our entry way," Dick said.

As a result of the settlement, AMI will be paid $215,000 and a second hotel will no longer be an option. AMI will pay $65,000 in past-due rent on the hotel that it withheld from the fairgrounds during the dispute.

The fairgrounds receives $42,200 annual rent for the hotel, plus a percentage of gross room revenues. The fairgrounds was projected to earn about $100,000 a year, but actual reve nues have ranged between $69,000 to about $98,000 a year, records show.

Jones' financial relationship with the fairgrounds is complex. Jones put up the money to construct the $2.1 million simulcasting facility at Fair Meadows and in return was allowed to build a $4 million, 103-room hotel on the fairgrounds.

His company holds food and beverage rights from the sports bar in the simulcast facility and retains the $2 admission revenues to pay the debt on the building.

AMI owns the simulcast building but leases the land from the Public Facilities Authority. Tom Hilborne, the authority's attorney, said the lease was transferred in January 1998 to Fair Meadows Racing and Sports Bar LLC, which was signed by Jones as manager. A limited liability company does not have to disclose its members.

Jones is listed as an officer of the not-for-profit Revival America Association. The group's Web site posts the same address as the simulcasting facility.

AMI also owns the hotel building and pays a lease to the fairgrounds for the land. AMI records list Knapp as president, Carl P. Hall as vice president and Audrey Williams as secretary. Tuttle said AMI assigned the hotel lease to Jasper Development, which is also an LLC. Knapp signed as president in that agreement.

Jones' proposal to build the Microtel was controversial at the time because the Public Facilities Authority did not seek competitive proposals from other developers. Jones was campaign manager in Dick's unsuccessful bid for mayor of Tulsa in 1994. Jones has been one of Dick's top political contributors in the past.

But Dick said that Jones' building of a simulcast facility kept the fairgrounds from closing its doors during hard financial times. Fairgrounds buildings were in poor condition. The racing simulcast operation was previously run out of the old Trade Center.

"The simulcast facility is what kept the doors open to the fairgrounds for a long time. Now with the improvements we're making, other things are starting to kick in, but had we not had a simulcasting facility, there was talk of shutting down a lot of venues and reducing a number of shows we had out there because we were losing money on them," Dick said.

Wasn't Ralph Jones the campaign manager for Bob Dick?

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Wasn't Ralph Jones the campaign manager for Bob Dick?

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(From above)
Jones was campaign manager in Dick's unsuccessful bid for mayor of Tulsa in 1994. Jones has been one of Dick's top political contributors in the past.

I should try reading the whole story...

Did you read the Robbie Bell blamed the fairgrounds decision to build an RV park on 15th street for his financial problems in 2003 and 2004?

He said it drastically reduced the foot traffic in the area. Explain to me how some RVs parked a quarter of a mile away from his gate reduced his foot traffic.

No, Robbie. That was the same time as you stopped maintaining the park even closing the miniature golf course. That was also the same time that your patrons started shooting at each other.

No Robbie, the RV park patrons were not to blame. Look in the mirror. Bell's is a rundown and unsafe place to take families.

They should leave or make dramatic improvements.

Why why why would a proposal to create level parking lot in Tulsa ever surprise anyone???

Parking lots are good at the fairgrounds or anywhere else for that matter. Here are the top ten reasons we need more parking lots, generally.
 
1. In the event of a gang war, there is no place to hide in an empty parking lot. They either kill each other, or they all run away.

2. More parking allows everyoneto park sideways, taking two parking spots.

3. It's much easier to charge $5 for a parking space than it is to pay $1.25 for a bus ticket.

4. The asphalt companies need the business, or they will be forced to relocate to another state.  

5. Parking lots are good places to meet to sell drugs, have flea markets, and velvet paintings.

6. Parking lots are more fun to kids than amusement parks are.

7. It would give Paul Tay a safe place to ride his bike.

8.  It would eliminate the bothersome chore of watching kids have fun in the summer.  They need more time to play xbox anyway - good for eye hand coordination.

9.  Some of the most beautiful parts of the fairgounds won't be obscured by the unsightly amusement rides.

10. Everyone knows that Amusement Parks are the main cause of global warming. Hot, smelly asphalt actually  helps heal the ozone layer.

I am confused.  I thought they had just recently and finally, after many years, come to terms on allowing Bells to expand.  And now we're talking about kicking them out and replacing them with a parking lot?  What is going on???

I think sgrizzle theory number one is probably closest to the mark. The park won't go away, it just won't be called "Bell's" anymore.

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Originally posted by Oil Capital

I am confused.  I thought they had just recently and finally, after many years, come to terms on allowing Bells to expand.  And now we're talking about kicking them out and replacing them with a parking lot?  What is going on???

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Because part of Robbie's business plan was to skimp on keeping the park clean and squalor-free, and to lowball the Fairgrounds on rent.  He thought he could get away with it, but the fairgrounds has other ideas?

Thats how I see it, could be wrong.

Indian owned and operated Casinos do not have to be on Indian land.  There are 3 operating in the US currently that are not on Indian Land.  

Because the casinos in Oklahoma seem to be enjoying huge profits at this time, why not replace existing space at the Expo with a business that would increase the revenue stream 10 fold.

My question, which has not been answered by the Tulsa World and the 4 TV station News departments is: When was the Expo Square Master Plan written, and why is it not public information?  

Second Question is if the Expo Master Plan was written prior to VISION 2025, why was Bell's Amusement Park not included in VISION 2025.  

And what of the donation by Murphy Brothers to Randi Millers campaign and Murphy Bros long term non compete contract bid with the Fair Grounds.  Why no investigation into that?

As our tax dollars are streaming out to build a modern Water Park in Broken Arrow, Remodel Main Street in Collinsville and various other projects outside of Tulsa.  

Spending all the money on other projects while allowing our existing Tulsa City/County park neighborhood swimming pools to sit empty with no water and no lifeguard on duty.

And now to decide to evict a Tulsa Historical Landmark off the County Fair Grounds after leading the owners on and allowing the to pursue a legal battle in District Court for years regarding a major improvement to their facility.  May want to look at the definition of “Unconscionable” agreements as used in Commercial Real Estate contracts.  

I would be hauling the County and everyone involved into Federal Court if I were Bell’s attorney.  

I recall the Fair Board and that group being taken to court over many things that have gone on there.  Including specific show producers that have had “Exclusive Rights” and blocked dates from competitors.  

The Fairgrounds is intended for the entertainment of the community, small medium and large events should have equal rights on that facility.  Bell’s and the other tenants have all experienced lower numbers as have the majority of most businesses in the Tulsa area over the past years since the 911 attacks.   Price of Energy increasing 33.3+ percent did not allow too many families to have the extra entertainment money to spend these past years.  

I submit there are more businesses going out of business in Tulsa than going into business.  Especially locally owned businesses.  Sure you have the giants like Wal Mart, National Chain fast food joints and a few others those that come and go like the wind.  But overall lets see the numbers of New vrs closed businesses.        

Best Economy in 50 Years!    For Who?  

I say let Bell’s be part of the all mighty VISION 2025 PLAN.   Oh, forgot they are not located outside of Tulsa, and the City/County does not handle the ticket booth.

Many communities would love to have an Amusement Park.  There are two in the US that are National Historic Landmarks.   Seems the Tulsa Area has lost a few over the past years.  Skyline, Crystal City, Lakeview, Orcutt Park now Swan Lake, Sand Springs Amusement Park,

Had to give you a breather.

Now Bell's seems to be added to that long list of long gone Amusement Parks in the Tulsa Area.

VISION 2025 has done zero for me that I know of.  

And now that I find Bell's is not included in the list of improvements from the VISION 2025 deal, I think it sucks.

Bell's should have a marathon ZINGO RIDE 24 hours per day seven days a week like a SIT IN of the 60's.   Sell T-Shirt that Say I rode Zingo for the last time.

Play the Movie Hair Spray on Giant Screens.  

VISION 2025 is good for who?

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Speaking of the Channels, anyone ever stood on the banks of the Arkansas River and took a good wif of the aroma there?  Neighbors near Charles Page Blvd sued the oil refineries few years ago and won.  They won $1 each for having to put up with the Smell annoyance.  Always heard AIR would be sold one day.  Guess they will be selling the tenants AIR there along with Filtered Water.

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Originally posted by AMP


My question, which has not been answered by the Tulsa World and the 4 TV station News departments is: When was the Expo Square Master Plan written, and why is it not public information?  

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Public information:
(http://vision2025.info/includes/categories/exposquare/projects/exposquaremasterplan/bigimage1.jpg)

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Originally posted by AMP


Second Question is if the Expo Master Plan was written prior to VISION 2025, why was Bell's Amusement Park not included in VISION 2025.  

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Lots of things weren't included. Could be because it's a private entity, could be because no-one submitted bells, could be something that was cut.


And what of the donation by Murphy Brothers to Randi Millers campaign and Murphy Bros long term non compete contract bid with the Fair Grounds.  Why no investigation into that?

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Originally posted by AMP


As our tax dollars are streaming out to build a modern Water Park in Broken Arrow, Remodel Main Street in Collinsville and various other projects outside of Tulsa.  

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It is a COUNTY tax and the dollars are spent all over the COUNTY. By and large, the city of Tulsa gets almost all of the money.

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Originally posted by AMP


Spending all the money on other projects while allowing our existing Tulsa City/County park neighborhood swimming pools to sit empty with no water and no lifeguard on duty.

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The Tulsa parks system got money from vision2025 too. Why not ask them where they're spending it instead of complaining because someone else got money?

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Originally posted by AMP


And now to decide to evict a Tulsa Historical Landmark off the County Fair Grounds after leading the owners on and allowing the to pursue a legal battle in District Court for years regarding a major improvement to their facility.  May want to look at the definition of “Unconscionable” agreements as used in Commercial Real Estate contracts.  

I would be hauling the County and everyone involved into Federal Court if I were Bell’s

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You forget, Robbie Bell was the one who suggested Bell's leave the fairgrounds originally. This was only a few months ago. Bell's has spent enough on legal fees. Robbie was the one who signed the contract that allowed the county to kick him out so easily. He would have ZERO legal grounds for a lawsuit.

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Originally posted by AMP

Had to give you a breather.

Now Bell's seems to be added to that long list of long gone Amusement Parks in the Tulsa Area.

VISION 2025 has done zero for me that I know of.  

And now that I find Bell's is not included in the list of improvements from the VISION 2025 deal, I think it sucks.

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Bell's might've been a good addition. However no-one, including you, cared back when it was time to put things on Vision2025. Too late now. Vision2025 is an economic development package, not a wishlist of things yielding personal gain. I support Vision2024 and the closest Vision2025 project to me is about 4 miles.

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Originally posted by AMP


Bell's should have a marathon ZINGO RIDE 24 hours per day seven days a week like a SIT IN of the 60's.   Sell T-Shirt that Say I rode Zingo for the last time.

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Good idea. You should contact Bell's. Noise ordinance be damned.

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Originally posted by AMP

"Indian owned and operated Casinos do not have to be on Indian land.  There are 3 operating in the US currently that are not on Indian Land."

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they are all on original historic allotments... the land may have been sold to a non-indian in the intermediate time...

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"As our tax dollars are streaming out to build a modern Water Park in Broken Arrow..."

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What project? That crappy Raddison?

Where is Bells master plan?  What has frustrated me over the years is watching the amusement park get worse and worse, not better. I remember going to both Silver Dollar city and Bells as a kid.  Bells had more rides and promise but has only gotten worse while places like Silver Dollar City have exploded, and yes during the post 911 economy.

I have also been very frustrated to watch Bells gimicy media stunts.  Every spring it seems he would roll out some plan like giving the park a western theme ( which never happened) or adding a major new ride ( which never happened) or talk about the possibility of moving ( which may now happen lol) and many other things where he got free publicity in the local paper and news.  But yet the park only languished and decayed. Tulsa deserved better.  It seemed he never had any vision or plan, any creative drive to make the park the best it could be.  

Dont get me started about not having enough land.  Ever been to a Disney Quest?  Small space, lots of fun.  Called being creative.  The lawsuit with the neighbors about a new roller coaster?  It took him 11 years and a lawsuit to figure out he could put it on the other side of the park? Puleeze. And did you see the rendering of the other coaster with the sound buffering?  It was horrible looking and would have been an eyesore for sure.

I just don't think Robby Bell has the imagination, creativity and drive to grow and maintain a wonderful amusement park.  My fear is that wherever he goes it will be the same. And its my guess, most others see that as well. We have seen is "plans" before not happen, over and over.  Why would anyone think it would be different this time?

Bell's third generation owner has brought all this upon himself.

When you let everything fall apart, the landlord should not renew your lease.

I was talking about this at a party over the weekend and I was amazed at how many people said they loved Bell's, but had not been there for years. They had some memory of it being fun, but had not seen it in the current state of disrepair. One guy said that he went last summer so his kids could drive the little cars and that only three cars out of a dozen were actually working. He asked the person working and they said the others were cannabilized to keep those three running.

Moving will be the best thing for Bell's and the fairgrounds.

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Bell's third generation owner has brought all this upon himself.

When you let everything fall apart, the landlord should not renew your lease.

I was talking about this at a party over the weekend and I was amazed at how many people said they loved Bell's, but had not been there for years. They had some memory of it being fun, but had not seen it in the current state of disrepair. One guy said that he went last summer so his kids could drive the little cars and that only three cars out of a dozen were actually working. He asked the person working and they said the others were cannabilized to keep those three running.

Moving will be the best thing for Bell's and the fairgrounds.

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Sounds like Robbie Bell is putting the carnie back in the amusement park business.

The reason people have fond memories of bells is because they went in the heyday of amusement parks.  These days most parks, with the exception of six flags, are just overgrown carnivals.  And the difference between amusement parks and carnivals is the scuminess level.

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Originally posted by TheArtist


I have also been very frustrated to watch Bells gimicy media stunts.  Every spring it seems he would roll out some plan like giving the park a western theme ( which never happened) or adding a major new ride ( which never happened) or talk about the possibility of moving ( which may now happen lol) and many other things where he got free publicity in the local paper and news.  But yet the park only languished and decayed. Tulsa deserved better.  It seemed he never had any vision or plan, any creative drive to make the park the best it could be.  

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You do realize that all of those plans -- including the Bell's Boom Town -- were held up by lawsuits, no?

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Originally posted by TheArtist


Dont get me started about not having enough land.  Ever been to a Disney Quest?  Small space, lots of fun.  Called being creative.  The lawsuit with the neighbors about a new roller coaster?  It took him 11 years and a lawsuit to figure out he could put it on the other side of the park? Puleeze. And did you see the rendering of the other coaster with the sound buffering?  It was horrible looking and would have been an eyesore for sure.

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A Disney Quest is NOT an amusement park.  And, as I understand, only one was built outside of Walt Disney World, in Chicago, and it closed down after about two years.

The proposed new roller coaster was to go parallel to Zingo right up against Zingo.  The rendering with all of the tunnels was not the original design.  The tunnels were added for sound mitigation for the neighbors.  There is not enough space on the other side of Zingo for a regular full-sized wooden roller coaster.  The new roller coaster proposed for the other side is of a radical design to fit into a site normally considered too small for such a coaster.

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Originally posted by TheArtist


I just don't think Robby Bell has the imagination, creativity and drive to grow and maintain a wonderful amusement park.  My fear is that wherever he goes it will be the same. And its my guess, most others see that as well. We have seen is "plans" before not happen, over and over.  Why would anyone think it would be different this time?

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It's nearly impossible to run a flourishing amusement park under the kind of constraints they've had at Expo Square.  That it's doing this well is admirable indeed.  Compare that with Six Flags, for example -- a company that is struggling to stay afloat under the burden of a $2 BILLION debt.  I wonder if their business plan would pass muster with Expo Square!

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Bell's third generation owner has brought all this upon himself.

When you let everything fall apart, the landlord should not renew your lease.

I was talking about this at a party over the weekend and I was amazed at how many people said they loved Bell's, but had not been there for years. They had some memory of it being fun, but had not seen it in the current state of disrepair. One guy said that he went last summer so his kids could drive the little cars and that only three cars out of a dozen were actually working. He asked the person working and they said the others were cannabilized to keep those three running.

Moving will be the best thing for Bell's and the fairgrounds.

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That sounds like the rides at the fair last year.  My Ma either volentered or went to the fair everyday last year, and Murphy Brothers finally got the one ride operational on the lst day of the fair. The only time I go to Bells is during the fair, their ticket prices were too high for what they had to offer.  I don't see me or my family going to the fair in the coming years.

Smoking Gun Discovered at Expo Square

Story about the Smoking Gun found at Expo Square:  
 
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=115226
 
Seems the Murphy Bros contribution to elected officials may have some strings attached.  
 
And again someone at the County has leaked information, AND a statement to the Press. Thought they were under some sort of Gag Order.  

Would think Bell could get a Judge to give him an injunction to extend his ability to move his equipment off the property, expecially since the Fair Grounds has not shown an immediate use for the property.  Not like they need to place an ad searching for a new tenant.  Especially  if their plans are to make the land a parking lot.  But now we discover Murphy has first rights to the property.

So how is Expo Square damaged as there is no revenue stream from the additional parking that could be quantified, and they have what appears to be a prospective tenant that signed on prior to the action taken against Bells.

Wonder if the patrons of the Fair would be willing to pay the same price for gate fees and Mega Ride pass fees as in 2006, with none of the Bell's Rides there for 2007?  

With the loss of Bell's, the Expo may not need the additional parking for the Fair.  

That would be a good poll for the Tulsa World, KOKI TV and other polling sites to run.

Many people are unaware that Bell's also owns the popular Giant Sky Ride Ski Lift that runs East and West at Expo Square.

With the loss of Bell's and an addition of a Parking Lot the Expo is beginning to resemble Down Town Tulsa.  

Used to have a state of the art 3/4 mile clay racetrack at Expo Square that drew 13,000+ race fans every Saturday night during the Spring and  Summer months.  But the races were too noisy according to neighbor Gloria Huckabee, so the motorsports industry got evicted by fiat off the grounds.  Turned it into a single purpose use "Sand Box" and a parking lot. Sand is the enemy of motorsports.

Now motorsports is allowed at Expo Square, but only Indoors with all the doors and windows shut so the neighbors won't be disturbed by a little noise.  I recall they didn't make Garth Brooks play indoors when he performed at Driller's Stadium.

Indiana provides Tax Incentives for Motorsports Industry businesses.  They even provide schlorships for University courses involving Motorsports training.   Their Governor even rides a Harley Davidson.  

NASCAR one of the top Fortune 100 businessses.

Cannot we just keep Zingo?  The rest is not as compelling as that wooden roller coaster thing, y'know?  Is that not what Tulsans want, anyway?

I think Bells has been stagnating where it is and having it move may just be the thing to kick Robby into gear and better the park.  

 It may put fresh energy and interest into the park by having it move.  If it succeeds and grows in one of the suburbs that will be better for Tulsa than having the park slowly rust and fall apart where it is.  

To have a good, clean, prospering amusement park would be good for the whole area.  Perhaps a business partner would add an influx of money, and much needed drive, creativity and vision for the park as well.



But back to the parking lol. Werent there plans for the expo to have a second level parking garage?  Would having the bells space then negate having to spend the money on building it?

When will there be a window of opportunity to fence off 3/4 of the parking near the Pavillion and Expo to erect temporary fencing to keep foot and driven traffic away from Cranes that will be operating North of the Expo building removing the Giant Sky Ride.  

Anyone have any memory of how long it took to install that ride or Zingo?

A team of engineers would be needed to direct the dismantling of the heavy equipment at Bell's.  

About the heaviest thing the people making these decisions have lifted is a vaccum cleaner.

After you assemble the team of engineers to develop the plan, check for burried underground cables, pipes and other hazards, then obtain permits to excavate, move overhead power lines, remove sewers and plumbing, comply with code inspections, obtain more permits, have additioal inspections while waiting for numerous personnel to return from vacations, holiday leave, family medical act leave, funerals, weddings, sick leave and other un-forseen delays.  

Purchase special liability insurance for moving heavy equipment and additional insurance for moving the parts down the streets avenues and highways in Oklahoma.  Special permits from the Department of Transportation and times with escorts, plus PSO to travel along lifting powerlines along the designated route.

After the paper work weighs about as much as the Belger Cartage Crane ball, you may be able to unscrew the first bolt.  

My question is how is the Expo going to deal with all the construction and moving around of heavy equipment and crane operations while having their annual events that have been advertised since last year?  

Think OSHA the DOT and the Equipment Operators Engineers Union will allow the operators to work with buildings in close proximity being occupied?
 
Then the re-location team must obtain duplicate and additional permits, fees and studies to allow the equipmenet to be erected in it's new location.

I would say around 5 months time to do the study, draw up the engineers guidelines, obtain permits and other legally required documents, retain a major Cartage service to attempt to dissasemble most the tall and heavy equipment there.  That is if the Cartage Service has equipment available, if there are licensed operators, and if there are enough trained Iron Worker personnel to assist with the tackle and gear.

Anyone ever moved anything that weighs over 2 tons and is 100+ feet in the air?

Ooops sounds like Robby had better get busy looking for a wrecking ball and a mess of dump trucks really quick like if thats the case. Robby is a big boy I am sure he was aware of what was in the contract when he signed it and as a studious business man, responsibly has contingency plans in place.

If its the tax payer dollars it would take to remove the stuff that you are worried about, I am sure we could sell off a lot of that stuff or at least sell it off for scrap metal then sue for any remaning cost.

There's no reason to jump to the conclusion already that Bell's assets are to be demolished.  The sky ride is an underappreciated rare treasure and a Tulsa landmark that should remain where it is.  It is frequently reported to be the biggest money-making ride at the fair, year after year.

(http://static.flickr.com/115/263384358_dbbee51cae.jpg) (http://"http://www.flickr.com/photos/ezeiza/263384358/")

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Originally posted by SJC TUL

There's no reason to jump to the conclusion already that Bell's assets are to be demolished.  The sky ride is an underappreciated rare treasure and a Tulsa landmark that should remain where it is.  It is frequently reported to be the biggest money-making ride at the fair, year after year.

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It is a shame - a true tragedy - that we cannot finnagle some way to save Zingo and the Sky Ride.  If our County Commission is that pathetic, we need to recall them.

Hmmmm.... it might not be a county issue for long.... not if the fairgrounds get annexed into the city of Tulsa.

They are looking into how much money this would cost the tax payers. I want to know when "How much it will cost the tax payers" became important? [}:)]

Concider this: If it is annexed, the next time it needs an upgrade or something done - it will be on the CITY taxpayers alone and not the entire county.....

quote:

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Originally posted by TheArtist

I think Bells has been stagnating where it is and having it move may just be the thing to kick Robby into gear and better the park.  

 It may put fresh energy and interest into the park by having it move.  If it succeeds and grows in one of the suburbs that will be better for Tulsa than having the park slowly rust and fall apart where it is.  

To have a good, clean, prospering amusement park would be good for the whole area.  Perhaps a business partner would add an influx of money, and much needed drive, creativity and vision for the park as well.



But back to the parking lol. Werent there plans for the expo to have a second level parking garage?  Would having the bells space then negate having to spend the money on building it?

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If you were in Bells' position, I rather doubt you would have done much differently.  Is any business really going to invest a lot of money in their business when they have not been able until very recently to reach agreement with the neighborhood allowing for a necessary expansion?  And further, it turns out, when your lease is nearing expiration, and you have a County Board of Commissioners who seem intent on running you out at the end of your lease?

And back to the parking issue.  Wouldn't the lease money from Bell's pay for or at least help to pay for a parking structure?

This whole mess at the fairgrounds is very disappointing.  Just when it starts to look like Tulsa might finally be turning a corner... or at least approaching the corner and thinking about turning... we have another example of incredibly bad leadership thrown in our faces.

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Originally posted by Oil Capital

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Originally posted by TheArtist

I think Bells has been stagnating where it is and having it move may just be the thing to kick Robby into gear and better the park.  

 It may put fresh energy and interest into the park by having it move.  If it succeeds and grows in one of the suburbs that will be better for Tulsa than having the park slowly rust and fall apart where it is.  

To have a good, clean, prospering amusement park would be good for the whole area.  Perhaps a business partner would add an influx of money, and much needed drive, creativity and vision for the park as well.



But back to the parking lol. Werent there plans for the expo to have a second level parking garage?  Would having the bells space then negate having to spend the money on building it?

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If you were in Bells' position, I rather doubt you would have done much differently.  Is any business really going to invest a lot of money in their business when they have not been able until very recently to reach agreement with the neighborhood allowing for a necessary expansion?  And further, it turns out, when your lease is nearing expiration, and you have a County Board of Commissioners who seem intent on running you out at the end of your lease?

And back to the parking issue.  Wouldn't the lease money from Bell's pay for or at least help to pay for a parking structure?

This whole mess at the fairgrounds is very disappointing.  Just when it starts to look like Tulsa might finally be turning a corner... or at least approaching the corner and thinking about turning... we have another example of incredibly bad leadership thrown in our faces.

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I think the "agreement with the neighborhood" thing is a prime example of how Robby has no creative vision.  It took him 11 years to figure out he could build the coaster on the other side of the park? Puleeze. Its sad that someone could be so moronic it would take them that long to figure something like that out. No creative genius this Robby Bell.  

As for worrying about being run out, the reason he has to worry is because they see Bells as being in such a bad state of affairs.  If Bells were up to snuff and playing a higher quality game they would probably be glad to see them stay.

Bells has only gotten worse since I was a kid, not better.

Bells has continually paraded "new improvements coming" that have never happened.  Remember all the nifty drawings of the western style theme they were supposed to do the park in? All the stories in the paper and in the news about it?  

 Thats just one example of something that was said would happen but didn't.  This pattern of improvements that never happened combined with the reality of a place that has only gotten worse, has left many people like myself, and probably those commissioners, extremely frustrated and disappointed.  

Bells would get everyone excited each spring, just as they were opening for the season, (Coincidence of timing or a trick to get free advertising from the tv news and paper each opening season?) by parading out some new thing that they were wanting to do.  Then it would never happen.

How many times does this have to happen before one gets suspicious?  How many times does one get their hopes up only to see them dashed, before you get jaded and turn to disbelief?

Enough is enough.

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Originally posted by AMP

Now motorsports is allowed at Expo Square, but only Indoors with all the doors and windows shut so the neighbors won't be disturbed by a little noise.  I recall they didn't make Garth Brooks play indoors when he performed at Driller's Stadium.

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Holding the races indoors at the Exposition Building does not lessen the noise.  I live down off of Yale at 26th Street and every year when they have that Chili Bowl racing thing, I can hear the engines racing loud and clear at my house, with all my doors and windows closed.  It only happens once a year for a few days, so I just shrug it off.  But if I can hear it so loud at my house a half mile away, I can't imagine what the noise must be like for the people that live just across 21st street, or on Indianapolis to the west.
And I could hear Garth and other Driller Stadium events at my house too, but it is not often enough to be much of a nuisance to me.  What I don't like are the frequent fireworks in the summer for Driller's games.  Sends my pets into nervous fits.

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Bell's third generation owner has brought all this upon himself.

When you let everything fall apart, the landlord should not renew your lease.

I was talking about this at a party over the weekend and I was amazed at how many people said they loved Bell's, but had not been there for years. They had some memory of it being fun, but had not seen it in the current state of disrepair. One guy said that he went last summer so his kids could drive the little cars and that only three cars out of a dozen were actually working. He asked the person working and they said the others were cannabilized to keep those three running.

Moving will be the best thing for Bell's and the fairgrounds.

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I agree 100%.  I am a middle-aged, single male with no children, but I used to enjoy going to Bell's on occasion with friends to play miniature golf and enjoy nice weather.  The last time I went to Bell's was just after they instituted a $1 admission fee, so it must be at least 10 years ago.

The golf course was still open, but it was a wreck.  All the old lovely water features were dried up and full of dead leaves and trash, the turf was worn out and full of holes, none of the mechanical hazards functioned, etc.  As I left that day, I thought to myself that that was my last visit to Bell's, and it was.

Sure they spent a lot of money on the Mind Melt ride, but they have obviously spent zilch on general upkeep and keeping the place an attractive recreation spot for people of all ages.  Zingo has been there since 1968, so I am sure the Bell family has recouped their investment on that one.  Unless they have a solid, formal plan to upgrade and beautify the park, with tangible results, I say the Expo Square board has made the right decision.

Kart Before the Horse - Buyer Beware

Just wondering why the developers would build residential near the County Fair Grounds to begin with, and second why would you buy a home so close to the Fair Grounds knowing there are events that have noise related equipment performing?  Again we go back to VISION 2025 and why they did not consider relocating the entire Facility to an appropriate location.

Must of been the same planners that allowed residential to be built on the flight path of Tulsa International Airport.

Noise problems sound more like lack of planning initially by the Zoning commission than the problem of the Fair Grounds or the event producers.  Home builders and home buyers must of known of the noise levels with regard to a Fair Grounds that has a 3/8 mile racetrack.

A dozen other cities Fair Grounds I have visited have either retail commercial buildings surrounding their Fair Grounds or Industrial areas. Not sure if the Fairgrounds or the surrounding buildings came first, but one would think the Fairgrounds occupied the space first.  Springfield, Illinois has one of the nicest well planned Fairgrounds I have visited.  Del Mar, California is another well thought out facility. Fiesta Texas is located in an old Rock Quarry, it rocks.

For the future the County/City should visit other States facilities and look at what works prior to jumping in with out planning ahead.  

I asked Vision 2025 at a couple of meetings what the dimensions of the floor in the new Tulsa arena was, and what the loading dock door dimensions werem and load limit of the floor were, but no one seemed to have the answer and never contacted me with the data.  

Perhaps moving the entire Fairgrounds to a larger and more suitable location would make more sense than just moving Bells.

What ever happens, it would be wise to invite every firm that has produced shows at the various venues in the area to attend and have input from them as to their requirements.  

Consultative information gathering of specific specs by end users seems only logical prior to hiring an architect.
     
Regarding maintenance of facilities, I recall the Fairgrounds seeking funding from a $1.00 sur-charge on tickets to charging for parking and a request of funds from the Tourist taxes for required maintenance of the facility.   The Vision 2025 funding helped to up-grade existing buildings and to construct new buildings there.  

Since majority of the buildings and facilities such as tbe Grand Stands and the Racetrack, Pavillion and the IPE Building that were on Expo Square prior to their requests for funding were either donated or provided by private businesses and no tax dollars or Fairgrounds funds went to construct them.  

Correct me, but I do not believe the Fair Grounds paid for any improvements from the rent of private facilities there.  So where then did the $12,000,000 that Bell's paid in rent go?  For Maintenance?  

Or the $5,000,000 each year off the gate fee alone at the State Fair.  

Also add up the other tenants, Drillers, Big Splash, OSU Extension office, City/County Health Department, Armory when it paid rent. Anyone have a list of where all those revenues went?  

If the majority of those funds were used for maintenance, the Fairgrounds must of missed maintaning the Bells area according to those that say it is in dis-repair.  And why was it they had to seek additional funding for maintenance a few years ago?  

Seems a few dollars are not accounted for, could be wrong but I just don't see it costing over a Million dollars per year in maintenance costs for the small area of land the Fairgrounds occupies.  

Someone explain the accounting procedures please.

Boo, hoo.  People need to take off their rose colored glasses and realize that the park is a dump.  It could be nice, if Robbie Bell had invested money to clean it up and keep it clean.  Instead he is now spending his time rambling on and on about how this whole thing is mysterious to him.

Considering the facts regarding Expo Square and the Bell's lease were not released until a few days after the Election, it seems only resonable to entertain a RECALL of everyone that was on the ballot that is involved in these decisions.

JMHO

Markk, have to agree with to to a degree.  

Major problem with Tulsa is the low wages, lay offs and lack of gainfull positions in the market.  Just ask Warren, he has pinpointed the problem regarding lack of Medical Insurance and low wages for his increased costs at St Francis Hospital.  Minimum wage = minmum results, and in more than one area.

Main reason venues, events, businesses that require a higher price for tickets cannot do business here, or run at deficit in specific areas.  

Same reasons you do not see major league sporting clubs here or a NASCAR tack, or for that matter any type of an operating Dirt Track located in Tulsa.  

Tulsa Speedway, Eastland Mall are other victims of the failing economy in Tulsa.  

After paying 40% increase in energy, State Income Tax, Turnpike fees and outrageous property taxes and insurance premiums, near 10% tax on food, pharmacuticals, clothing and other essentials it is no wonder people are broke as a joke and diving deeper into debt every month.  

Would be interesting to see how many people with Oklahoma drivers licenses changed them to other states in the past 4 years, and what states they moved to.

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Originally posted by Markk

Boo, hoo.  People need to take off their rose colored glasses and realize that the park is a dump.  It could be nice, if Robbie Bell had invested money to clean it up and keep it clean.  Instead he is now spending his time rambling on and on about how this whole thing is mysterious to him.

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All I am saying is give Zingo a chance . . .  The park is in disrepair, no doubt, but why does Zingo have to go?  Cannot we agree to save Zingo?

The orginal ZINGO Roller Coaster of which the ZINGO at Bell's was named after.  

The first Zingo which was located in Crystal City Amusement Park West of, Tulsa no longer thrills riders of all ages.

(http://tulsatvmemories.com/imag2003/zingoold.jpg)

Anyone remember the Trampoline Pits at Bell's or the Alley Oop metal cage self propelled swing contraption that Bell Senior built?

Guess most kids today are connected to the operators end of some overpriced Video Game instead of excerising by running, jumping and operating self propelled equipment at an Amusement Park.

(http://tulsatvmemories.com/imag1999/pong.gif)

(http://tulsatvmemories.com/imag2003/seaplane.jpg)

AMP- you brought up some interesting points.  I agree- the whole fairgrounds is in a terrible location.  What were developers thinking when they built homes right on the fairgrounds' back porch?  And I get really sick of hearing the redidents' woes.  Seriously, who in their right mind plans on living in a quiet neighborhood right next door to  a county fairgrounds?  Not to mention the smell of farm animals during the fair.  Unfortunately it looks like the fairgrounds will be at its current location for a long time based on their funding from Vision 2025.  But without Bell's and likely Drillers Stadium, they will quickly start to resemble the fairgrounds of any other county fairgrounds in some small town in Oklahoma.  I don't care how much revenue some redneck cattle show generates- it doesn't belong in Tulsa.  Robby Bell ought to sell his equipment to another amusement park operator who can connect Bell's with Big Splash and the horse racing track, possibly making a real attraction.  The fairgrounds should find a philanthropist who can help them buy out some of the homes closest to the area and build a buffer between the left over homes and the fairgrounds.  If the Drillers move, the stadium could be modified into an outdoor theatre mixed with some restaurant/clubs and small retail stores.  Without Bell's the State Fair will likely lose serious revenue dollars.  The only reason the Fair was ever fun was beause the midway and Bell's, two mediocre entities, combined together to make something kind of cool.  Without drastic new direction and foresight, the fairgrounds and the Tulsa State Fair will be a complete waste of space- and more importantly- money.

New Use for Bell's Parking lot Discovered....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-BPb4DUO7I

Is there some reason why the Bells couldnt have slowly bought up blocks of property to the west of the amusement park and used that for parking and or more "quiet" types of attractions to act as a buffer?  Built the roller coasters closest to the fairgrounds and the things like the put put course, boat rides,restaurants etc. on the west side of the grounds.

 Not to mention he could have done something like the different indoor attractions and theme parks around the country like DisneyQuest. I always have a blast going to those.  Plus it would be year round revenue and entertainment. There were always so many creative options for him to expand and grow that he never took.

http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/wdw/entertainment/entertainmentDetail?id=DisneyQuestIndoorInteractiveThemeParkEntertainmentPage&bhcp=1

http://www.park-tickets.com/florida-attraction-guide/disney-quest.aspx

I did the coaster simulator, created my coaster in outer space, then rode in it, and yes I was green with sickness afterwards,[:P]. First and last time I will ride in on of those.

Bell's opened in 1951, when the biggest thrill ride around was the Tilt-A-Whirl.  Many of the homes around Bell's were built before the park opened.  Bell's was originally a kiddie park, with kiddie rides for small children and miniature golf for adults.  Today, amusement parks want the biggest, fastest, most dangerous thrill rides, and the Bell's location is not suited for these.  In 1951, the Bell's location was on the outskirts of the city limits.  My home was built in 1954 at 26th and Yale, and was considered the far southeast limits of the city at the time.
I think the fairgrounds authorities should try to keep the Zingo coaster, buy it from Bell, and keep it for the fairgrounds.  If Bell wants to stay in the park business, then he should move all their other rides to a better suited location, where expansion and greater thrill rides are possible.

Bell's rent was based on revenue, and the revenue kept falling.

Aside from the behind-the-scenes politics that finally killed this landmark, the key factor was the falling grosses.

I blame 2 elements for this. One is local, the other global.

1)The revenue drop at Bell's coincided with the rise of the Casinos. Instead of staying a "Family" park, it became a place where the kids got dropped off while the parents went gambling.

2)The rise of online fantasy games (such as World of Warcraft) has taken a big chunk out of the amusement industry. How many 18 to 20-somethings hung out out Bell's last year?  Cocooning is still a marketing trend that grows each year as the internet expands.

These factors were not Bell's fault. And if Bell didn't have the revenue, then he couldn't upgrade the park.

This reason is why I think a future "bells" should be a come & go park tied into a shopping and entertainment district. You could have an outdoor ampitheater, restaurants, etc. Then if you want to go ride the zingo, you can. No gate admission.

All on the river preferably. Around 21st, 41st, or Sand Springs.

There's already a shopping and entertainment development built on the river with an outdoor ampitheater; the Riverwalk Crossing at 96th & Riverside, on the Jenks side of the river.

I'm not sure Bell's could afford to move out there, though.

The Riverwalk is by far the best piece of river development out there right now, and it didn't cost $60 million of the taxpayer's money.

Riverwalk doesn't have the room. A boardwalk-facing development featuring second story lofs, hotels, and amusement park rides would be a real attraction.

Riverwalk Crossing isn't the best in riverfront development, it's just the best we've got so far.

Maybe if Bell's moved to about 81st St. South on the west side it could be near the Riverwalk and still have plenty of room to expand.  I think if Bell's, the Riverwalk (with phase 2 actually finished), the aquarium, and expanded Creek Nation Casino were all connected by a water taxi, the whole area would make for a decent entertainment destination.  This is what the Riverwalk really needs-- to be part of an entertainment destination instead of trying to serve as an entertainment destination itself.  The whole area could be called "Riverside South," and marketed as one entity.  Of course, that low water dam would help this a lot, too.