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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: TulsaBeMore on July 14, 2021, 12:37:44 am



Title: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: TulsaBeMore on July 14, 2021, 12:37:44 am
I attempted to insert the images, but I am apparently incapable of understanding how to accomplish it.

(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpghttps://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)

(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg])


(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg])

News reports indicate the original contract between PAC Trust and Indianapolis developer Flaherty & Collins expired last year, but the entities are still working together.  These "new" renderings showed up on F&C's website sometime last year ---- the nearly 30-story tower is "new."


Current posting with images on Flaherty & Collins website:  https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/

The Annex, a partnership with the Tulsa Performing Arts Center (TPAC) Trust, includes 240 luxury apartment homes and resort-style amenity spaces including a pool, fitness center, aqua lounge, outdoor grilling stations and bike storage space with repair tools.

Annex would also include a 35,000 square foot grocery (Reasor's in original plan), and an additional 7,000 square feet of additional retail space, along with 636 spaces in a multi-story parking garage that will be shared with TPAC guests.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 14, 2021, 07:15:26 am
Yes these renderings came out some time ago. Heard on the news this morning that they intend to proceed with this project and are eager to get going, but need to come to a new agreement since covid put them on pause and the contract expired last year.

Sounds like the project is still a go. This would obviously be a huge project for downtown. They also said they reached out to the city to ask about new skyscrapers. City said there's things pending, but nothing confirmed yet.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on July 14, 2021, 07:38:28 am
That would be great if the tower is still in the works. The two new 11-12 story towers going up right now are pretty cool, but an actual addition to the skyline would be very welcome, especially if it fills in a parking crater! Heck, I could even go for a unit myself, I've been pondering a move to the downtown area for awhile, but want to hold off a couple years for the housing market to cool off a bit and some of these projects to get finished first.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: TheArtist on July 14, 2021, 07:51:46 am
I attempted to insert the images, but I am apparently incapable of understanding how to accomplish it.

(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpghttps://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)

(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg])


(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg])

News reports indicate the original contract between PAC Trust and Indianapolis developer Flaherty & Collins expired last year, but the entities are still working together.  These "new" renderings showed up on F&C's website sometime last year ---- the nearly 30-story tower is "new."


Current posting with images on Flaherty & Collins website:  https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/

The Annex, a partnership with the Tulsa Performing Arts Center (TPAC) Trust, includes 240 luxury apartment homes and resort-style amenity spaces including a pool, fitness center, aqua lounge, outdoor grilling stations and bike storage space with repair tools.

Annex would also include a 35,000 square foot grocery (Reasor's in original plan), and an additional 7,000 square feet of additional retail space, along with 636 spaces in a multi-story parking garage that will be shared with TPAC guests.

I wonder if the moderators could update the forum to a more modern format where you can "drag & drop" or "insert" images?


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 14, 2021, 08:08:24 am
Surprised this project still is alive... would be a game changer in my opinion! Could really improve living in downtown.

The best method I've found for uploading images is uploading a photo to imgur and then getting the forum code. Works fairly well.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on July 14, 2021, 09:13:01 am
(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)

Here is the rendering.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Red Arrow on July 14, 2021, 10:09:36 am
I wonder if the moderators could update the forum to a more modern format where you can "drag & drop" or "insert" images?

We had something like that for a while but there were too many inappropriate images.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: nxb33 on July 14, 2021, 12:34:15 pm
Project is still very much alive and moving along.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 22, 2021, 01:59:56 pm
Just saw this story on it as well:

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/operating-trust-says-sale-tulsa-pac-parking-lot-still-works#stream/0

Interesting that the story does say that Reasor's has pulled out of the discussions but that a full-service grocer is still part of the plans. They have confirmed the hotel component as well which means the high-rise version of the renderings is probably what we'd see built. Number of parking spaces is down to 450 ish from the 600+ range originally.

Wonder who the full-service grocer would be if not Reasor's. Not sure if Whole Foods would be interested in a third location or not, they have anchored a lot of similar developments and this developer even built the Whole Foods anchored mixed-use development in Indianapolis. 360Market Square (https://flco.com/company-properties/360marketsquare/)

They've also built one for Kroger in downtown Indianapolis in addition to that Whole Foods development (https://flco.com/company-properties/axis/). Obviously Kroger wouldn't be an option here.

If Reasor's wasn't interested the only other options might be a Whole Foods or a Walmart Neighborhood Market.  


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: DTowner on July 22, 2021, 03:15:27 pm
So, the tower is the apartment building?  Seems really tall for 240 apartments.  If this hotel is on second street, it is actually further from the PAC entrance than the Hyatt.  And is another hotel really what downtown needs?

My understanding was, at least several years ago, the PAC trust was adamant about a full-service grocery store no matter how unrealistic the demand.

I put this project in the category of “nice ideas, but not going to happen in the next 5 years.”


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 22, 2021, 04:41:07 pm
So, the tower is the apartment building?  Seems really tall for 240 apartments.  If this hotel is on second street, it is actually further from the PAC entrance than the Hyatt.  And is another hotel really what downtown needs?

My understanding was, at least several years ago, the PAC trust was adamant about a full-service grocery store no matter how unrealistic the demand.

I put this project in the category of “nice ideas, but not going to happen in the next 5 years.”


The residential is the tower, and if you consider the average unit size of most apartments and that the residential portion would be built over a little under 1/4 of that block. You're talking maybe being able to fit 10-12 units per floor which would mean 20-24 floors for the residential portion.

I believe the brand for hotel would most likely be AC Hotel (Marriot brand) - they're a great brand and mostly built in urban areas. I'd consider them a slightly more fancy version of Aloft but not quite to a 4-star type hotel level of service. I can easily see this being a good fit for that project given it would align with PAC visitor demographics and offer a slightly cheaper option to Hyatt Regency next door to the PAC too.

I think the PAC trust is right on with wanting a grocer in order for the project to be worth it. If you think about it, this block makes the most sense for a grocer downtown long term. It's within walking distance of all the major office buildings, not too far from many of the convention hotels, and along one of the few east west street that actually don't dead-end at the IDL plus having visibility along 2nd to the north and Cincinnati for people wanting to stop on their way out of downtown too. It's also smack in the middle of all the new housing that has been built downtown too to the east, west, and north of that site. I frankly can't think of a better location downtown for a grocer than that block so I'm glad they have been holding out and making sure that is part of the project.

The downtown hotel market really serves a broader area than just downtown too so there's a good amount of demand - there's extremely limited options for decent hotels anywhere in the midtown area. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on July 22, 2021, 04:48:15 pm
The downtown hotel market really serves a broader area than just downtown too so there's a good amount of demand - there's extremely limited options for decent hotels anywhere in the midtown area. 

There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 22, 2021, 05:27:25 pm
There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.

I'd consider the hotels along I-44 as 'midtown' but I wouldn't really consider any or at least very, very few as 'decent' hotels. Ambassador is in Uptown now so with the Brut hotel that'd be two in Uptown. Campbell is along 11th, but it's also a very small hotel.

I have also wondered why Utica Square didn't have a hotel especially with St. John's across the street. Cherry Street is close enough to downtown it probably doesn't need it's own hotel but the vacant lot along Utica would make sense to develop as hotels with other mixed-uses. Brookside could use a hotel or two as well especially being walk-able to the Gathering Place when the southern portions are completed.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 22, 2021, 05:34:49 pm
There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.

That's why I stay downtown when I'm back. The only other place I might go to would be the Marriott at 71st & Lewis. The area around 31st & Memorial was okay back in 1998, but I've seen too much of there and the ones at 41st & Memorial on "The First 48". Can't stand casinos, and I wouldn't spend enough time there, and 71st & 169, no way. Everything out there is here in Phoenix with the exception of a couple of places.

Besides, I like the view downtown.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vrbBH68/0/b3937ba6/M/i-vrbBH68-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa-2020/n-S5Fm4M/i-vrbBH68/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-bGnhqQn/0/dc914a9a/M/i-bGnhqQn-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa-2020/n-S5Fm4M/i-bGnhqQn/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-H2c7BcD/0/57b17451/M/i-H2c7BcD-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa/n-9wf5f4/i-H2c7BcD/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PwggLtw/0/6ad73369/M/i-PwggLtw-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa/n-9wf5f4/i-PwggLtw/A)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Jeff P on July 28, 2021, 10:43:27 am
I'd consider the hotels along I-44 as 'midtown' but I wouldn't really consider any or at least very, very few as 'decent' hotels. Ambassador is in Uptown now so with the Brut hotel that'd be two in Uptown. Campbell is along 11th, but it's also a very small hotel.

I have also wondered why Utica Square didn't have a hotel especially with St. John's across the street. Cherry Street is close enough to downtown it probably doesn't need it's own hotel but the vacant lot along Utica would make sense to develop as hotels with other mixed-uses. Brookside could use a hotel or two as well especially being walk-able to the Gathering Place when the southern portions are completed.

Agreed. It seems Brookside would be an ideal spot for like a little boutique hotel with the Gathering Place right there.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 20, 2021, 04:28:35 pm
Flaherty & Collins bought the land

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on September 20, 2021, 04:34:10 pm
Flaherty & Collins bought the land

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)

That's really good news.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Tulsan on September 20, 2021, 05:15:41 pm
I was told by an attorney for the PAC Trust back in 2018, after Reasor’s had dropped out, that they were requiring a grocery agreement to be in place before allowing the deal to proceed. She said finding a new operator was proving to be one of the multiple hurdles they had no ready solution for. 

Seems like they finally got it all figured out. Excited to hear what they end up doing.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on September 20, 2021, 05:38:25 pm
Let's go!! This is big news... fingers crossed for a grocery store!


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Tulsan on September 20, 2021, 08:01:33 pm
Flaherty & Collins bought the land

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)

The updated story has some great info.

Quote
The proposed multi-use site, dubbed the Annex, would include a 20,000-square-foot grocery store, 10,000 square feet of additional retail space, a 240-unit apartment building and a boutique hotel. The project would also include a parking garage with approximately 450 spaces, which could be utilized by visitors both to the Tulsa PAC and City Hall.

Flaherty & Collins Properties' proposal is essentially the same one it first presented in 2017 to the Tulsa PAC Trust. The principal difference is the addition of the 100-room hotel, which will be operated by Origin Hotel. It will be the first Origin Hotel in Oklahoma.

Regarding the hotel - Origin is boutique chain under the Wyndham badge, with just a few locations - Raleigh, Lexington, a couple of Colorado spots, and coming soon in Austin.  Looks like a pretty nifty concept. https://www.originhotel.com/

Quote
Ryan Cronk, a partner with Flaherty & Collins, said that a company has agreed to have one of its grocery stores be part of the project, but the company wishes to make its participation officially known at a later date.

“I can say that it is an established business, with about 80 stores,” Cronk said.

My bet is that the unnamed grocery is Homeland returning to the Tulsa market - http://hacretail.com/.  Nice way to make a splash on reentry.  Admittedly, Whole Foods or another premium grocer might be more sexy, but Homeland will serve the downtown market well.





Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 20, 2021, 08:39:32 pm
Homeland is to OKC what Reasors is to Tulsa.  The older stores are mediocre and the newer ones are pretty nice.  20k sq ft is a decent size but about half the size of a typical full service grocery store.  Hopefully it has a cafe and large prepared food section; it should do very well during lunch hour.

Excited to see some updated renderings.  I personally like this F&C project in Columbus and think something like it would be awesome here: https://flco.com/news-articles/flaherty-collins-properties-chosen-as-part-of-development-team-to-transform-scioto-peninsula-in-columbus-oh/ (https://flco.com/news-articles/flaherty-collins-properties-chosen-as-part-of-development-team-to-transform-scioto-peninsula-in-columbus-oh/)

(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Scioto-1.jpg)

The article says they are supposed to start construction in late 2022, likely delivering in mid 2024.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on September 21, 2021, 08:24:25 am
Great to see this finally moving forward, but the renderings in the TW article are definitely a little lackluster. The apartments/condo tower was stripped out and turned into an ugly non-descript 6 story thing. The grocery looks pretty uninspiring too. I'm glad we get the store and even more housing and infil development, but this is a prime lot and I was hoping for something truly grand. I knew I was getting my hopes up for the tower though, that was too good to be true. I wonder how long it will be until we see an actual addition to Tulsa's skyline.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on September 21, 2021, 08:35:33 am
Yeah the updated drawings are very meh. Was hoping for a tower, still a vast improvement from the lot.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: DowntownDan on September 21, 2021, 09:01:25 am
I don't really care about height. One of my favorite cities to walk is Washington, D.C., where all of the buildings are limited to I think 12 or 15 stories. Tulsa doesn't need any more tall buildings, we need to infill parking lots with small and mid-scale development. This seems to fit the bill. I do agree, however, that the renderings look fairly plain, pretty much another version of The Edge and The View. Not horrible, but just kind of boring. And Homeland was my thought too based on the descriptions. The other places I had in mind (Sprouts maybe?) have more locations than the description. A quick google shows that Homeland as of 2019 had 79 locations (not all Homeland branded), so that has to be it, and I'm okay with it if it is in line with the nicer ones in OKC.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on September 21, 2021, 09:14:00 am
I don't really care about height. One of my favorite cities to walk is Washington, D.C., where all of the buildings are limited to I think 12 or 15 stories. Tulsa doesn't need any more tall buildings, we need to infill parking lots with small and mid-scale development. This seems to fit the bill. I do agree, however, that the renderings look fairly plain, pretty much another version of The Edge and The View. Not horrible, but just kind of boring. And Homeland was my thought too based on the descriptions. The other places I had in mind (Sprouts maybe?) have more locations than the description. A quick google shows that Homeland as of 2019 had 79 locations (not all Homeland branded), so that has to be it, and I'm okay with it if it is in line with the nicer ones in OKC.

Sprouts had been looking around the 15th & Peoria area for a while but I don't think could ever find a site.

Homeland does seem to fit everything they are saying. The Homeland that just opened in NE OKC is about 30,000 sq. ft. so similar size. It's very nice and would be exactly what downtown needs.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/08/31/oklahoma-city-homeland-grocery-store-near-me-open-food-desert/5577563001/

https://okcfox.com/news/local/homeland-at-ne-okc-grand-opening


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: brettakins on September 21, 2021, 09:37:24 am
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/05/e051269c-2e45-57df-8328-805e13fea316/6149d55a3320b.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C637)

Quote
An Architect's rendering looking west from the corner of Detroit Avenue and Third Street shows the Annex, a multi use project by Flaherty and Collins Properties that will occupy the parking lot just east of the Tulsa Performing Arts Center downtown. The Tulsa PAC trust, which has owned the lot since 1977, voted to sell the property to Flaherty and Collins for $5.5 million.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 21, 2021, 10:51:02 am
Interested to see how they parking this.  The way the site slopes you could have an entire parking level partially underground on the south side and at-grade with 2nd St on the north side.  In that case you could take an escalator/elevator/stairs from the parking into the grocery store above that fronts 3rd St.  That is how it is done at the downtown Whole Foods in both Austin and Denver.

3rd St will have the grocery store frontage that wraps around the Detroit side along with the hotel entrance at 3rd & Cincinnati.  Perfect spot for people coming for shows at the PAC.  Interested to see what the 2nd St frontage looks like hopefully there is a decent amount of retail space to continue activity with the new OTASCO development/The Brook across the street and the lot next to it ripe for future redevelopment.

This combined with Santa Fe Square will make the whole area feel livelier. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Jake on September 21, 2021, 12:25:17 pm
I know the “it’s better than what’s there now” mindset is prevalent and I’m happy for development that takes surface parking away, but going from a 26 story tower to an nondescript apartment building is heartbreaking and hilarious.

I understand tall buildings don’t necessarily create lively, liveable cities and all that jazz. Its just jarring to see the before and after renderings.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on September 21, 2021, 01:27:32 pm
I know the “it’s better than what’s there now” mindset is prevalent and I’m happy for development that takes surface parking away, but going from a 26 story tower to an nondescript apartment building is heartbreaking and hilarious.

I understand tall buildings don’t necessarily create lively, liveable cities and all that jazz. Its just jarring to see the before and after renderings.

It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.

This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.

Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 21, 2021, 01:45:34 pm
It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.

This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.

Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.

I like the smaller grocery footprint better and think it will be more viable than a large store.  With the rise of grocery delivery there just isn't a need for as much space, and what is there should be good for downtown residents and office workers (large prepared foods section, deli/seafood counter, small bakery, coffee shop).

I'm interested in what happens to the site across from the TPAC on 3rd.  I know this has been floated as a potential expansion space for the theater and possibly a hotel.  An AC Hotel or equivalent would do well at the corner of 3rd & Boston.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Jake on September 21, 2021, 01:59:55 pm
nvm


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: DowntownDan on September 21, 2021, 03:16:11 pm
Wasn't office space in the original plan? Maybe the extra levels were office space that doesn't have a market right now with WPX having a bunch of office space it needs to lease.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on September 21, 2021, 03:26:23 pm
It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.

This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.

Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.

According to what the TW wrote they also cut the garage size from 636 to 450. With a 240 unit apartment building, 100 room hotel and grocery store is 450 enough spaces to service the PAC as well?

Incidentally, the 26 story tower is still on the Flaherty & Collins website. That website also still has the garage at 636 spaces and notes a 35,000 Sq Ft grocery location.
https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 22, 2021, 06:44:13 am
For parking let’s say the 240 units breakdown into the following: 25% studio, 50% one bed and 25% two bed units.  That’s 300 bedrooms.  If they park it one stall per bedroom that’s 300 stalls for the apartments.  That leaves 150 for the grocery store, hotel and PAC. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on September 22, 2021, 08:37:36 am
nvm

I get a lot of developments here seem to be bait and switch (Cimarex, Santa Fe Square, etc.) this just isn't one of them. If you look at the proposal they submitted to win the competition with the PAC from the other three developers what they are proposing now is still more than what was in the orginal proposal. The high-rise version didn't come about until much later in the proses for the reasons I said. If you want to see high-rise residential, this project is going to lead that route because they are still going to have to build it with steel/concrete and charge higher rents so it will test/establish a market for where rental rates can go in Tulsa and if the market will support high-rise residential. So all in all this isn't the development to be disappointed about compared to say Santa Fe Square currently.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on September 22, 2021, 08:44:13 am
For parking let’s say the 240 units breakdown into the following: 25% studio, 50% one bed and 25% two bed units.  That’s 300 bedrooms.  If they park it one stall per bedroom that’s 300 stalls for the apartments.  That leaves 150 for the grocery store, hotel and PAC. 

That's a good breakdown, plus those 300 stalls will never be 100% in use during the day time when the grocer and or PAC would be holding events. The hotel will likely valet cars which means they can park a lot in a very small amount of space. The PAC events are not going on when the grocer would be busy either so really it's a good use of space and they actually seem to not be over building parking here. The PAC could always offer valet services too and use that garage. With the massive garage at Santa Fe Square too just a couple blocks away that can more than easily handle any over flow parking for any PAC event too.

I still don't understand why the City has not retrofitted their parking garage given it's location to open in the evenings. Like use some of the COVID funds to upgrade security so no one can access the building and open it for free in the evenings. It's right in the middle of Blue Dome/Greenwood/Arts District - just seems dumb we have a public asset sitting there restricted and unused in such a valuable location for a parking structure.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Vision 2025 on September 23, 2021, 02:53:10 pm
While the PAC typically has Saturday and Sunday matinées, the majority of shows are typically in the evening at 7 or 7:30.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 26, 2021, 12:32:06 pm
Here is a rendering from 2nd & Detroit.  My guess is the Detroit parking garage entrance will be for the grocery store/PAC with an escalator/elevator into the grocery store above.  The other garage entrance on 2nd will be for the apartment residents and hotel.  

Typically the main lobby/leasing center would be located in the middle of the block adjacent to the parking entrance (there will likely be a handful of visitor spaces adjacent to the lobby).  There will be some kind of retail space, not sure if it is located at the Detroit or Cincinnati corner though.

(https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/784d653/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2654x1635+0+55/resize/880x542!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fkwgs%2Ffiles%2F202109%2Fannex_september_2021_rendering_from_second_and_detroit.png)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on September 27, 2021, 07:48:45 am
Even though it's not a "tower", that 11 stories will really fill up the area and add a ton of density. Kinda odd that they are putting the apartments on the PAC corner rather than putting the hotel or store there, but I guess it might have something to do with the grading since that corner is the high point and both the store and the hotel need the basement/parking levels.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on September 27, 2021, 09:12:58 am
Even though it's not a "tower", that 11 stories will really fill up the area and add a ton of density. Kinda odd that they are putting the apartments on the PAC corner rather than putting the hotel or store there, but I guess it might have something to do with the grading since that corner is the high point and both the store and the hotel need the basement/parking levels.

Exactly, you can just partially excavate the site and get nearly the entire existing lot of parking underneath the grocery and hotel fronting 3rd.  Agree on the density this is overall a great project for this location.  Now just need this one and Santa Fe to actually start in mid-2022.  



Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: owenix on November 01, 2021, 06:53:08 pm
Reasors was sold today to Brookshire Grocery Company. This may explain the unnamed chain indicated in the sale article from September.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: tulsabug on November 01, 2021, 07:27:48 pm
Reasors was sold today to Brookshire Grocery Company. This may explain the unnamed chain indicated in the sale article from September.

Sad to see anything go under a Texas company's ownership but Reasors did seem to be lacking in the capital they needed to compete so I guess better than languishing. I can't imagine the unnamed chain is Reasors though - seems more in line with an Aldi or something.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on November 01, 2021, 08:03:25 pm
Pretty sure it's Homeland.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: tulsabug on November 02, 2021, 02:30:14 pm
Pretty sure it's Homeland.

Has Homeland actually built any stores lately or just converted ones they've acquired? I'm not saying they couldn't build something new but I would think if they're wanting to reenter the Tulsa market they'd be better off buying an existing store that was at least making money as opposed to this relative unknown. I mean - we all would like a grocery store downtown but business-wise it's a total crap-shoot on it's actual viability even with people actually living downtown.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on November 02, 2021, 03:22:17 pm
Has Homeland actually built any stores lately or just converted ones they've acquired? I'm not saying they couldn't build something new but I would think if they're wanting to reenter the Tulsa market they'd be better off buying an existing store that was at least making money as opposed to this relative unknown. I mean - we all would like a grocery store downtown but business-wise it's a total crap-shoot on it's actual viability even with people actually living downtown.

Homeland recently built a 30k sf new store in NE OKC that is pretty nice.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on December 16, 2021, 02:29:14 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/up-to-22-million-bond-issuance-planned-for-downtown-project-linked-to-new-grocery-store/article_03b694de-5e7c-11ec-b03e-5f3dce5d98d1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

So this is moving forward with a possible construction start date of Q2 2022, meaning this summer. Very exciting. Since the rest of Santa Fe Square is also most likely going to start construction at this time, that'll be two major projects under construction taking up former surface parking lots. A huge reduction in empty space downtown, not to mention so much more cohesion across the blue dome district. Really looking forward to this, even though the big tower has been removed.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on December 16, 2021, 09:24:41 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/up-to-22-million-bond-issuance-planned-for-downtown-project-linked-to-new-grocery-store/article_03b694de-5e7c-11ec-b03e-5f3dce5d98d1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

So this is moving forward with a possible construction start date of Q2 2022, meaning this summer. Very exciting. Since the rest of Santa Fe Square is also most likely going to start construction at this time, that'll be two major projects under construction taking up former surface parking lots. A huge reduction in empty space downtown, not to mention so much more cohesion across the blue dome district. Really looking forward to this, even though the big tower has been removed.

That will be a lot of construction in the Blue Dome, especially an 11 story residential tower.  Good to see things shifted back from the Arts District but would like to see additional projects there too, hopefully Western Supply gets off the ground in 2022 and we start to see plans developed for the TDA lots north of 244 and the Evans-Fintube site. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 04, 2022, 11:22:01 am
Anyone heard rumblings on the timeline for this? Hopefully still set for this summer... I keep looking and hoping that I spot signs of construction. Haven't yet :)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Tulsan on May 04, 2022, 07:59:55 pm
Anyone heard rumblings on the timeline for this? Hopefully still set for this summer... I keep looking and hoping that I spot signs of construction. Haven't yet :)

It’s moving forward. They have to redo a sewer line. No building permit yet, though. I don’t know exact timeline but appears on track.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 09:15:37 pm
It’s moving forward. They have to redo a sewer line. No building permit yet, though. I don’t know exact timeline but appears on track.

I believe they still have a bit to go on getting construction documents ready and then will be submitting for permits. I talked with the developers not too long ago and they are full steam ahead. I would imagine it'll be fully under construction by fall.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on May 06, 2022, 10:22:29 am
I believe they still have a bit to go on getting construction documents ready and then will be submitting for permits. I talked with the developers not too long ago and they are full steam ahead. I would imagine it'll be fully under construction by fall.

I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown.  This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable.  Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 06, 2022, 11:19:35 am
I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown.  This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable.  Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future. 

Agreed - it will also make downtown finally feel somewhat connected/cohesive. Right now it feels like very fragmented neighborhoods because of the big parking lots. Once the Santa Fe lot is gone and PAC lot is gone you'll have a pretty dense core with only small parking lots mixed in the Deco District, Blue Dome, East Village, Greenwood, and Arts District will all feel more like one big area versus separate places. We just are in need of some decent streetscaping, I wish Tulsa would figure out a way to pull off something like Project 360 in OKC.

Not sure if anyone has noticed by they've started the process of converting Cincinnati and Detroit to two way streets. They're starting it by the WPX building, not sure how long it will take them to do it all the way north to the split and south to the BA.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 06, 2022, 11:34:11 am
Totally agree ^. Will give the downtown area much better flow. Next on my wishlist is the development of the seemingly random assortment of abandoned buildings in prime spots... Across from McNellies is a big one, totally kills that corner. The old gas station (?) in the arts district across from the tavern. Can't believe that spot hasn't been bought and turned into something. You couldn't ask for a better location.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on May 06, 2022, 11:40:40 am
Totally agree ^. Will give the downtown area much better flow. Next on my wishlist is the development of the seemingly random assortment of abandoned buildings in prime spots... Across from McNellies is a big one, totally kills that corner. The old gas station (?) in the arts district across from the tavern. Can't believe that spot hasn't been bought and turned into something. You couldn't ask for a better location.

It's a manufacturing facility and they don't want to move. They actually filed not too long ago to expand the building and the city turned them down. I can't remember the name of the company.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 06, 2022, 03:37:23 pm
It's a manufacturing facility and they don't want to move. They actually filed not too long ago to expand the building and the city turned them down. I can't remember the name of the company.

That's interesting... maybe we can pitch in and help them gently relocate haha. It's an eyesore on the area... although it really puts the Mixed into Mixed use.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on May 06, 2022, 04:22:00 pm
If I recall, they actually wanted to add some retail frontage somehow... but it was kind of a weird deal. They want to stay where they are at because they like the location and have been there forever - long before the area became hip. Some of their machinery isn't easy to move apparently. Probably the type of stuff that isn't even made anymore so if they move they risk something going wrong and having to figure out all new equipment and a new process.

There was also some flak about the building itself. Apparently some value it as historical despite it not looking like much. It could be restored to look like an antique gas station I guess...


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: tulsabug on May 06, 2022, 04:55:43 pm
What building are we talking about?


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 05:20:37 pm
That's interesting... maybe we can pitch in and help them gently relocate haha. It's an eyesore on the area... although it really puts the Mixed into Mixed use.

Just when I think no one is stupid enough to pay a high price, well above fair market value, for something, someone does.



Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 05:44:03 pm
I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown.  This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable.  Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future. 

Make downtown attractive enough and limit parking enough and MAYBE we can get park-and-ride lots and commuter rail.  Probably won't happen in my lifetime though.




Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 06, 2022, 06:57:42 pm
$200 million will get you three miles of street car tracks and rail cars.

Quote
The Tempe Streetcar will begin service in early 2022 after delays in the manufacturing and delivery of six vehicles made by Brookville Equipment Corporation. The $200 million project will include three miles of track, 14 stops and two connections to the already existing Valley Metro Rail.

The project, originally projected to be completed in mid-2021, is a collaboration between the city of Tempe and Valley Metro originating from a voter-approved regional transportation plan in 2004. The project is jointly funded by ASU, the Federal Transit Administration, a half-cent sales tax approved by Tempe voters in 1996 for transit expansion and a mix of private investors.

https://www.statepress.com/article/2021/10/tempe-streetcar-delay-economic-development (https://www.statepress.com/article/2021/10/tempe-streetcar-delay-economic-development)

Route map

https://kjzz.org/file/tempe-streetcar-map-20180815png (https://kjzz.org/file/tempe-streetcar-map-20180815png)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Red Arrow on May 07, 2022, 01:20:25 pm
$200 million will get you three miles of street car tracks and rail cars.

So we are only about 25 years away from something similar if we start now.

Is that 3 miles of track or route?  Double track is the way to go.



Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 07, 2022, 07:53:32 pm
So we are only about 25 years away from something similar if we start now.

Is that 3 miles of track or route?  Double track is the way to go.



It's a 3 mile loop (1.5 miles each side) with a spur at each end for cars to change direction.

North end of the loop

https://goo.gl/maps/Xc87311yJeN2S9hr9 (https://goo.gl/maps/Xc87311yJeN2S9hr9)

East end of the loop stops at the light rail station on the Tempe/Mesa border.

https://goo.gl/maps/BjSi5zTDKjSCzMqr9 (https://goo.gl/maps/BjSi5zTDKjSCzMqr9)

In theory and being looked at is extending the street car route into the downtown area of Mesa since the streetcar and light rail cars use the same gauge track and overhead electrical pickup and this intersection is where the crossover would be.

https://goo.gl/maps/eKPLgkYYBmPNLCbc9 (https://goo.gl/maps/eKPLgkYYBmPNLCbc9)

The timeline has been extremely long mainly, IMO, because the target for transit here keeps moving, and has been changing since the mid 80's. Originally in the 80's was a plan for a combination of express buses and light rail, think hub and spoke method, to run down the center of the freeways, IIRC, with them all meeting together at a terminal just off of downtown Phoenix. Most of the terminal was built when they completed I-10 with the Deck Park Tunnel/Margaret T. Hance Park. The light rail was eventually built in the late 2000's and the area between the park and the library on Central Ave is where the top part of the station was to be built.

Overhead

https://goo.gl/maps/YSpKMfaXaYLjq1K68 (https://goo.gl/maps/YSpKMfaXaYLjq1K68)

This is the entrance/exit for where the buses would have entered from I-10.

West side

https://goo.gl/maps/ZvyFU1FWNQVLUJz68 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZvyFU1FWNQVLUJz68)

East side

https://goo.gl/maps/PpepmRH4iKazG1SV6 (https://goo.gl/maps/PpepmRH4iKazG1SV6)

The terminal area in the tunnel is now used by ADOT for equipment storage especially for the equipment they use for cleaning the tunnel two to three times a year.

https://www.12news.com/article/features/phoenix-has-forgotten-underground-bus-station/75-1e5ad90e-22e2-411e-b84a-ec4af12b521a (https://www.12news.com/article/features/phoenix-has-forgotten-underground-bus-station/75-1e5ad90e-22e2-411e-b84a-ec4af12b521a)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: Red Arrow on May 09, 2022, 08:53:47 pm
It's a 3 mile loop (1.5 miles each side) with a spur at each end for cars to change direction.

So, double ended cars.  Philadelphia had single ended PCC cars for many years which required a loop at the end of the route.  The suburban trolleys I knew were double ended.  A short route could be a simple switch to the other side like the Woodland Ave stop in Springfield on the Media line.  The end of the line in Media was simply an end of the track.  The old trolleys with trolley poles had a pole at each end.  The motorman had to lower one and raise the other to operate in the opposite direction. Probably not much fun in the rain or snow.  Not a problem with the pantograph type pickup.

Quote
In theory and being looked at is extending the street car route into the downtown area of Mesa since the streetcar and light rail cars use the same gauge track and overhead electrical pickup and this intersection is where the crossover would be.

Not sure about Streetcar and Light Rail mixing.  I've read that mixing Light Rail and Heavy Rail is generally not allowed even if the rail gauge and power source is the same.

Overhead view of the Woodland Ave stop.  The outbound double track stops at Woodland Ave. The switch (turnout) is a bit from the road, probably to allow 2 car multiple units.
https://goo.gl/maps/kqmdqzK5gizp2vWu5

Street view looking inbound to 69th Street.  Media, PA being the outbound end of the route.
https://goo.gl/maps/Hx4KfdbnE2iXa2e4A

I don't remember if it is single track from here to Media or if it is double track part way.

Edit: add end of line in Media:

Looks like there were some overhead wire maintenance difficulties when this street view picture was taken.
https://goo.gl/maps/T68pzFk4vXs2GRL99


Back to Tempe...
Do you know if Girder Rail was used rather than regular rail?  I ask because the last I heard, all Girder Rail is foreign sourced which causes funding problems with USA $.

http://www.rail-fastener.com/grooved-rail.html#:~:text=Due%20to%20the%20asymmetric%20cross-section%20of%20the%20girder,steel%20rails%2C%20more%20sophisticated%20welding%20techniques%20are%20required.







Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 10, 2022, 01:01:52 pm
I don't know about the actual rail used but will look around and see.

Valley Metro which runs both the light rail and the street car systems use the same tracks and the same repair yard, so the street cars are capable and actually have been during the "burning in period" for the cars have been running on the light rail tracks.

Quote
“They are going be doing some tests of the vehicle in our maintenance facility, then each vehicle has to do what’s called burn in and travel several-hundred miles to make sure it’s basically able to withstand travel on the track,” said Valley Metro’s Madeline Phipps. “We’re going to use the light-rail track for that because with only a three-mile loop on the Tempe Streetcar line, that would take a really long time.

“Then we’ll do testing on the actual Tempe Streetcar system, probably starting in late May. Streetcar vehicles can travel on the light-rail track. In fact, every night, the streetcars will switch over onto the light-rail track and travel to our maintenance center at 30th Street and Washington to be serviced.”

https://www.wranglernews.com/2021/04/02/run-into-town-on-a-rail-tempe-streetcar-ready-to-ease-congestion/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThen%20we'll%20do%20testing,and%20Washington%20to%20be%20serviced.%E2%80%9D (https://www.wranglernews.com/2021/04/02/run-into-town-on-a-rail-tempe-streetcar-ready-to-ease-congestion/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThen%20we'll%20do%20testing,and%20Washington%20to%20be%20serviced.%E2%80%9D)

On the expansion into Mesa, I may have been somewhat wrong on the routes. They are studying the expansion now and awaiting results from Tempe's first year or two, as well as a 0.5% transportation tax that was passed in 2004 is set to expire in 2025 unless it is renewed by a public vote, and any infrastructure money from the Fed.

Quote
Tempe's $200 million streetcar won't be up and running until early next year, but some leaders already are eyeing expansion.

Valley Metro officials in 2020 began evaluating five possible expansion routes. One expansion — which would take it to Mesa near the Chicago Cubs spring training park and the busy Mesa Community College campus — ranked in third place.

That's the only explored route that would take streetcar deep into west Mesa. The others are almost entirely in Tempe, although the No. 1 option would just cross the Mesa border and go up to Dobson Road in Mesa. The five potential expansion routes are:

First place: A line running east on Rio Salado Parkway, roughly from Rural to Dobson roads. This would run along the Tempe Novus Innovation Corridor, which is partially being built on the old Karsten Golf Course.

Second place: A line running south on Rural Road from Rio Salado Parkway to Southern Avenue. At Southern Avenue, it would run west to Mill Avenue.

Third place: A line entirely in Mesa, running along Dobson Road from Rio Salado Parkway to Southern Avenue, then cutting east along Southern Avenue to Country Club Drive and running north along Country Club Drive to Main Street.

Fourth place: A line extending further south on Mill Avenue, to Southern Avenue.

Fifth place: A line going further west on Rio Salado Parkway.


Valley Metro CEO Scott Smith, who oversaw much of light rail's Mesa expansion as mayor, isn't ruling it out. But, he said it'll take years for an expansion like that to take shape.

If it does happen, he said, it'll be thanks to two things: the recently approved $1.2 trillion federal infrastructure package and a potential renewal of Maricopa County's transportation tax, which is set to expire in 2025.

Francisco Heredia, a Mesa City Councilmember who leads two Valley Metro boards of directors, hopes it extends into Mesa.

He sees the potential Mesa route as a boon to spring-training baseball, shopping centers and the massive community college campus. It also could spur more redevelopment in the nearby Fiesta District.

"It's going to be important access for the future," he said.

Smith and Heredia spoke with The Arizona Republic at Valley Metro's expanded, solar-powered Operations and Maintenance Center in Phoenix. The center, where workers repair and maintain light rail vehicles and streetcar, recently underwent a $92 million expansion.

Extension could be 5-10 years out, but one leader wants to know next year
Leaders acknowledge an expansion could be years out, and likely hinges on whether voters renew the 0.5% county transportation sales tax. But Heredia hopes to have a timeline in the next year.

"We're going to see how Tempe's system operates and learn from that," the Mesa council member said.

Potentially expanding into Mesa comes with some hurdles. The streetcar would have to intersect with light rail at Dobson Road and Main Street, as well as a Union-Pacific train line on Dobson.

At least one of those issues may have a solution already.

Streetcar intersects with light rail lines twice in Tempe. At those points, the streetcar disconnects from the overhead line, which powers it and charges its battery, and runs solely on battery power. Smith calls it a "hybrid" model of rail.

Smith said the streetcar needs two things to expand: more grant funding and an extension on the county transportation sales tax.

The massive bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act would go a long way for the former. The deal promised some $8 billion in grants for rail projects across the U.S. The biggest hurdle is getting some of that competitive grant money, Smith said.

"If streetcar happens (in Mesa), the infrastructure package is the reason it happens," he said.

But there's still the elephant in the room for rail projects: Prop. 400.

The tax, which voters approved in 2004, paved the way for light rail by increasing sales tax 0.5%. But it's set to expire in 2025. Smith said he hopes an extension will head to the ballot in 2022 or 2024.

"Come back in 2025 or 2026 and we'll see if the streetcar expansion can happen," he said. "If voters approve that extension, Mesa can immediately begin planning."


(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/12/10/PPHX/c1704623-3ab3-4969-ba31-ca4b09cfb028-streetcar_expansion_routes.png?width=848&height=642&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)

Here's the link to the article, you can get to it by using an incognito window since it's behind a paywall.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 10, 2022, 01:34:35 pm
A side note on Tempe and how much it has changed, here are two views from the same spot on Google Street View, the first is from May of 2011 and the second is from March of 2021


https://goo.gl/maps/89noe8h4kr4ZKT1Y9 (https://goo.gl/maps/89noe8h4kr4ZKT1Y9)

https://goo.gl/maps/n39XCNHYt6PXkdzr7 (https://goo.gl/maps/n39XCNHYt6PXkdzr7)




Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 06, 2022, 08:49:36 am
Keep hoping to see some initial work on this site... nothing doing yet :)


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 06, 2022, 09:24:29 am
Keep hoping to see some initial work on this site... nothing doing yet :)

My assumption is they are working on construction docs and plans... they can take a long time especially with as backed up as most architects are at the moment. Some offices were at least 6 months out from even being able to start a project, let alone the time to actually work through getting it ready to submit to the city. So we could easily still be close to the end of this year before we see anymore plans from the developer or early next year.

It's definitely a tricky time because the longer it takes to get closer to construction and as interest rates keep rising hopefully this doesn't kill the project. It's a legitimate developer who has done plenty of similar projects, but rising rates are going to more quickly impact large projects like this than smaller developments.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 06, 2022, 01:01:22 pm
My assumption is they are working on construction docs and plans... they can take a long time especially with as backed up as most architects are at the moment. Some offices were at least 6 months out from even being able to start a project, let alone the time to actually work through getting it ready to submit to the city. So we could easily still be close to the end of this year before we see anymore plans from the developer or early next year.

It's definitely a tricky time because the longer it takes to get closer to construction and as interest rates keep rising hopefully this doesn't kill the project. It's a legitimate developer who has done plenty of similar projects, but rising rates are going to more quickly impact large projects like this than smaller developments.

Good insight. Would be devastating if this project gets killed. Tulsa is so close to getting some more good momentum downtown.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: shavethewhales on July 06, 2022, 01:42:43 pm
Well, hotel occupancy still seems to be doing well as far as I'm aware, and downtown apartments are still popular. Their profit margins may shrink due to interest expense, but I doubt the margins are so close that interest rate rises would knock them off. Construction costs are probably a bigger hinderance. We're still seeing overall project prices that are double what they were before the pandemic.

There's also fears of the overall economy going into a recession and layoffs starting up. Banking industry has already been impacted and that represents a lot of jobs downtown. Energy isn't doing as good as you'd think despite the profit margins you hear about. The drilling/midstream companies still can't get the capital to expand like they'd want and they are scared to jump in too quickly like they have in the past anyway. That means the downtown firms aren't hiring en mass like the old days either, and of course WPX is gone...

So all in all, I'm not surprised that they are dragging their feet and share the hope that things will go through as planned eventually. Hopefully things will level off by fall all around.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on July 06, 2022, 02:14:40 pm
Well, hotel occupancy still seems to be doing well as far as I'm aware, and downtown apartments are still popular. Their profit margins may shrink due to interest expense, but I doubt the margins are so close that interest rate rises would knock them off. Construction costs are probably a bigger hinderance. We're still seeing overall project prices that are double what they were before the pandemic.

There's also fears of the overall economy going into a recession and layoffs starting up. Banking industry has already been impacted and that represents a lot of jobs downtown. Energy isn't doing as good as you'd think despite the profit margins you hear about. The drilling/midstream companies still can't get the capital to expand like they'd want and they are scared to jump in too quickly like they have in the past anyway. That means the downtown firms aren't hiring en mass like the old days either, and of course WPX is gone...

So all in all, I'm not surprised that they are dragging their feet and share the hope that things will go through as planned eventually. Hopefully things will level off by fall all around.

This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them.  For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF.  I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.

I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site. 


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: swake on July 06, 2022, 02:27:34 pm
This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them.  For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF.  I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.

I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site. 

That law would impact state sales taxes, not local sales tax. No impact.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: SXSW on July 14, 2022, 07:53:35 am
Hearing this is still moving forward, albeit slowly, due to redesign associated with the grocery store operator.  I would expect to see a spring groundbreaking.


Title: Re: PAC Parking Lot Development
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 15, 2022, 10:58:30 am
This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them.  For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF.  I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.

I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site. 

I don't believe the city has bonded the TIF for this yet so not sure if there's any specific timelines on this one.

Santa Fe though has already been bonded when they started the office portion so that's why they have specific timelines on it. The TIF for Santa Fe was calculated based on ad valorem and sales of both the office and residential portions. So if they backed out of the apartment portion it was be a pretty significant issue (not saying they would I think they are pretty eager to start once they have the office building far enough along and it's no longer a staging issue).

I don't think the PAC developer is being held to anything at the moment, I don't think the city will issue the bonds until they're within a month or two of breaking ground and have permits, etc.