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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: patric on May 10, 2020, 06:39:14 pm



Title: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 10, 2020, 06:39:14 pm
Hey, Elon Musk, There's a "Big F***ing Field" in Tulsa for Tesla's Cybertruck Factory
A cheeky website is begging Tesla to bring its Cybertruck production to Oklahoma.

"Hey Elon, we hear you need a big f*cking field. We've got just the place for your Cybertruck Gigafactory. It's in Tulsa." Pardon the language, but that statement headlines a new website www.bigf***ingfield.com, that apparently exists as a bid to get Tesla to situate its newly announced Cybertruck electric pickup-truck factory in Tusla, Oklahoma. Tesla CEO Elon Musk recently tweeted that the automaker was looking to plop its new Cybertruck Gigafactory someplace in the "central USA," and places don't come more centralized in America than Oklahoma, we suppose.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-factory-website-tulsa-big-effing-field-campaign/



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2020, 07:11:02 pm
And don't get much more stupid when trying to attract big business.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 10, 2020, 07:25:14 pm
Hey, Elon Musk, There's a "Big F***ing Field" in Tulsa for Tesla's Cybertruck Factory
A cheeky website is begging Tesla to bring its Cybertruck production to Oklahoma.

"Hey Elon, we hear you need a big f*cking field. We've got just the place for your Cybertruck Gigafactory. It's in Tulsa." Pardon the language, but that statement headlines a new website www.bigf***ingfield.com, that apparently exists as a bid to get Tesla to situate its newly announced Cybertruck electric pickup-truck factory in Tusla, Oklahoma. Tesla CEO Elon Musk recently tweeted that the automaker was looking to plop its new Cybertruck Gigafactory someplace in the "central USA," and places don't come more centralized in America than Oklahoma, we suppose.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-factory-website-tulsa-big-effing-field-campaign/





That's pretty f***ing funny


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 10, 2020, 10:00:39 pm
With his sense of humor I think he'd love it. Just have to hope he comes across the page  :P


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 13, 2020, 08:03:25 am
I was listening to KRMG this morning and they had Gov Stitt on talking about several things. He mentioned that he was on the phone with Tesla yesterday. I would assume that was just the state reaching out to guage interest and give their pitch, but perhaps it could lead to more serious discussions.

Tesla did say they're looking for a location in the central region of the country to produce cybertrucks. Give them the big fu**ing field....


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 14, 2020, 01:30:42 pm

There is a similar discussion about Telsa Service Center in Oklahoma City on OKCTalk.com Forum:  https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&highlight=telsa (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&highlight=telsa)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 15, 2020, 03:19:02 pm
CNBC just reported Tesla is considering 2 locations in Tulsa and that the site for a new factory is down to Austin and Tulsa.

Kick Navistar out if they can't maintain the building. That site is about 50% the size of the Fremont plant and they could occupy it almost immediately. Wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the site. As shitty as Navistar has been considering the lease is for $1, get ride of them. Telsa would probably expand that building and would employee twice as many people with higher wages. The Fremont plant employs 10,000. There's not many locations in the US with direct rail access and direct runway access less than 5 miles from an ice free port. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 15, 2020, 03:20:16 pm
Yep down to Tulsa and Austin

 https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2020/05/15/report-tesla-to-build-factory-in-austin-and-produce-model-y-vehicles-by-end-of-2020/ (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2020/05/15/report-tesla-to-build-factory-in-austin-and-produce-model-y-vehicles-by-end-of-2020/)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 15, 2020, 03:48:52 pm
Yep down to Tulsa and Austin

 https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2020/05/15/report-tesla-to-build-factory-in-austin-and-produce-model-y-vehicles-by-end-of-2020/ (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/technology/2020/05/15/report-tesla-to-build-factory-in-austin-and-produce-model-y-vehicles-by-end-of-2020/)

Tesla in Tulsa?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 15, 2020, 04:10:09 pm
CNBC just reported Tesla is considering 2 locations in Tulsa and that the site for a new factory is down to Austin and Tulsa.

Kick Navistar out if they can't maintain the building. That site is about 50% the size of the Fremont plant and they could occupy it almost immediately. Wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the site. As shitty as Navistar has been considering the lease is for $1, get ride of them. Telsa would probably expand that building and would employee twice as many people with higher wages. The Fremont plant employs 10,000. There's not many locations in the US with direct rail access and direct runway access less than 5 miles from an ice free port.  

I thought the same thing. When the article came out about Navistar my first thought was that there was no way Bynum and the City would risk losing 1600 jobs without trying to negotiate terms. Basically it came off as an unnecessarily aggressive move by the city to me.

In my mind that told me that they had another potential tenant lined up and were looking to use that as leverage against navistar, or intend to kick navistar out to replace them with another tenant. That announcement just so happened to come out the same time as Tesla's announcement to expand into the center of the country, which I don't think is a coincidence.

So Tesla was shown two sites in Tulsa. Perhaps the Navistar site is option #1 if they don't come to terms and then a backup site if Navistar complies with city demands.

Just speculation. Would be fantastic for Tesla to set up shop here though.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 15, 2020, 04:12:09 pm
The Fremont factory employs 10,000 people.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on May 15, 2020, 04:52:15 pm
I thought the same thing. When the article came out about Navistar my first thought was that there was no way Bynum and the City would risk losing 1600 jobs without trying to negotiate terms. Basically it came off as an unnecessarily aggressive move by the city to me.

In my mind that told me that they had another potential tenant lined up and were looking to use that as leverage against navistar, or intend to kick navistar out to replace them with another tenant. That announcement just so happened to come out the same time as Tesla's announcement to expand into the center of the country, which I don't think is a coincidence.

So Tesla was shown two sites in Tulsa. Perhaps the Navistar site is option #1 if they don't come to terms and then a backup site if Navistar complies with city demands.

Just speculation. Would be fantastic for Tesla to set up shop here though.

To me Navistar seems to be the one getting aggressive with the city, not the other way around. Who goes out and gets a PR firm to slander the mayor when you are getting such a sweetheart deal? I wouldn't be sorry to see them thrown to the curb. Would love to see where they go to get a better deal.

I don't think Telsa would take that ratty old building though. They will need a larger facility with better access even if it is smaller than one of their giga factories or whatever they are calling them now. I wonder if they can get a large lot in the port of Catoosa industrial park.

Beating out Austin will be a tough feat though. The things working in our favor are obviously the fact that land and labor is cheaper up here, but obviously Austin is Austin and the work force is probably much easier to come by among other things. It kind of seems like a false choice to me, like Tulsa is in the mix just so they can get a better deal from Austin.

Tesla's leadership leaves a lot to be desired right now anyway. Musk seems to lose his mind every now and then. Seems like another unstable situation that Tulsa would be at the mercy of. First the oil companies, then AA, then this? Wish we could get a boring business like an insurance company to move it's HQ here.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 15, 2020, 05:25:25 pm
Tesla in Tulsa?


DETROIT (AP) — Tesla has picked Austin, Texas, and Tulsa, Oklahoma, as finalists for its new U.S. assembly plant, a person briefed on the matter said Friday.

The person says company officials visited Tulsa in the past week and were shown two sites.
It wasn’t clear if there were any other finalists in the mix. the person didn’t want to be identified because the site selection process is secret.

The electric car maker has said it wants the factory to be in the center of the country and closer to East Coast markets.

The stakes are high for state and local governments. Tesla has said the plant will be larger than its factory in Fremont, California, which employs 10,000 workers.

Companies typically play finalists against each other in order to get the best package of tax breaks and other incentives.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tesla-picks-tulsa-austin-as-finalists-for-new-u-s-factory/article_812dda5f-75f2-5493-aca9-6463f8efe17d.html

Wait for it...

Tesla’s next factory is going to be in Austin, Texas and it’s going to happen quickly
https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 15, 2020, 05:41:43 pm
To me Navistar seems to be the one getting aggressive with the city, not the other way around. Who goes out and gets a PR firm to slander the mayor when you are getting such a sweetheart deal? I wouldn't be sorry to see them thrown to the curb. Would love to see where they go to get a better deal.

I don't think Telsa would take that ratty old building though. They will need a larger facility with better access even if it is smaller than one of their giga factories or whatever they are calling them now. I wonder if they can get a large lot in the port of Catoosa industrial park.

Beating out Austin will be a tough feat though. The things working in our favor are obviously the fact that land and labor is cheaper up here, but obviously Austin is Austin and the work force is probably much easier to come by among other things. It kind of seems like a false choice to me, like Tulsa is in the mix just so they can get a better deal from Austin.

Tesla's leadership leaves a lot to be desired right now anyway. Musk seems to lose his mind every now and then. Seems like another unstable situation that Tulsa would be at the mercy of. First the oil companies, then AA, then this? Wish we could get a boring business like an insurance company to move it's HQ here.

Tesla would definitely need to renovate the building but in terms of his beef with Alameda County right now that would give him an option to shift some product out of California almost immediately and then improve/expand the building over time.

Navistar is trying to bully the city into paying for the deferred maintenance by hiring the PR firms and scaring employees. Navistar is notorious for these antics. All about the bottom line, you have a city renting you a million square foot building for $1 and they think they can get them to pay for the upkeep too... I don't know what else they think they deserve from taxpayers.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Telsa move it's HQ to Austin and build factories in Tulsa and Austin and slowly close the Fremont plant.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 15, 2020, 05:57:13 pm
Maybe Austin can get the HQ or R&D and Tulsa gets the plant, win win for TX and OK.  Tulsa has the better workforce for these advanced manufacturing jobs, especially with the oil and gas and possibly aerospace industries laying off workers.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 15, 2020, 06:08:20 pm
Obviously would be huge for Tulsa.  Austin is stiff competition, but there are a lot of things Tulsa has going for it.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/15/tesla-scouts-head-to-tulsa-austin-as-hunt-for-cybertruck-gigafactory-location-nears-end/

This article says that company officials visited Tulsa this week... doesn't seem to be confirmed in Austin's favor then.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 15, 2020, 06:13:14 pm
There's some sources out there claiming they've already picked Austin, but later reports saying Tulsa is a finalist as well. If they've already picked Austin it wouldn't make much sense for them to have site visits here as recently as this week.

Obviously they would pit finalists against each other to get incentives, but usually those finalists are larger cities, with capacity for larger incentives. Picking Tulsa as a second finalist simply to try to get better incentives seems like it would be really odd.

Not sure what to think, but it sounds like a decision will be made quickly.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 15, 2020, 06:23:17 pm
Confirmed by the Oklahoman,

MAY 15, 2020 - DETROIT (AP) - Tesla has picked Austin, Texas, and Tulsa, Oklahoma, as finalists for its new U.S. assembly plant, a person briefed on the matter said Friday.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 15, 2020, 06:35:44 pm
Tesla’s other Battery plants are in Reno and Buffalo, for what it’s worth.  I still think the bus plant is the key to all of this and it isn’t a coincidence the city has been having issues with them.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 15, 2020, 06:41:38 pm
Telsa in T-town, good luck Tulsa.

(https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/large960_blur-1f40c79bc9ba36ef46cd51d732296583.jpg)

If awarded to Tulsa, the plant will qualify for Oklahoma Quality Jobs incentives...


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 16, 2020, 09:48:51 am

Obviously they would pit finalists against each other to get incentives, but usually those finalists are larger cities, with capacity for larger incentives. Picking Tulsa as a second finalist simply to try to get better incentives seems like it would be really odd.
 

Which airline was it a few years ago that used the threat of moving to Tulsa as leverage against the city they wanted more concessions from?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Jacobei on May 16, 2020, 10:23:52 am
While Tulsa does fit the bill of being more centrally located in the country, I think we have a Solyndra's chance in Tulsa that this will come here.  I hate to be negative, but I've been burned by unrealistic hopes before.

I think we're being used as leverage option and nothing else.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 16, 2020, 10:30:21 am
While Tulsa does fit the bill of being more centrally located in the country, I think we have a Solyndra's chance in Tulsa that this will come here.  I hate to be negative, but I've been burned by unrealistic hopes before.

I think we're being used as leverage option and nothing else.


American Airline Maintenance Center, Tulsa has been there before.  Austin also thinks they are being used as leverage...

Austin is now one of the top ten cities in the U.S. with the worst traffic.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 16, 2020, 12:17:18 pm
Which airline was it a few years ago that used the threat of moving to Tulsa as leverage against the city they wanted more concessions from?

Boeing? I don't remember any actual Airline ever discussing moving to Tulsa. That was just the Dreamliner production, which in hindsight given all of Boeing's problems wasn't as big of a loss. I don't think at the end of the day they really got more out of Washington to keep operations there, and really all we offered them was to build their plant for them which they already had most of what they needed already in Everett. So it wasn't as appealing of an offer to uproot everything to move to Tulsa than most probably thought it was.

The only reason I'm hopeful is if they really are considering the Navistar Bus Plant. There's not a site in Austin that could offer them the same appeal on a logistics basis (directly on the airport, directly on a rail line which is critical to auto plants, and near a port). The sites they've looked at in Austin are in Hutto and Jarrell for reference, so north of Georgetown and south of Temple/Killeen. Not exactly the 'cool' part of Austin. From a talent prospective and appeal side Austin is likely the winner, but Tesla does have a history of not being afraid to locate operations in non-primary MSA's (Reno and Buffalo) and they could acquire 'talent' in Tulsa for a lot cheaper than in Austin. Oklahoma did pass an auto manufacturing tax credit in the last few years which would give them $5,000 per employee. So Oklahoma can offer up a competitive incentive package. 

Tulsa is at least getting a lot of press out of it to be named a 'finalist' even if we're being used as leverage. There was a significant increase of relocations scouting for most cities named as finalist for Amazon from other firms. Hopefully even if Tulsa isn't picked for the site we can use it as a positive.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 18, 2020, 11:33:35 am
This showed up on the OKCTalk.com forum:

May 15, 2020

Tesla’s next factory is going to be in Austin, Texas, and it’s going to happen quickly: https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/ (https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/)

Hope there is no validity to this report.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on May 18, 2020, 01:20:05 pm
^I mean, everyone is rushing to discount Tulsa immediately. If they did indeed come here, then that means we are in some kind of consideration even if it is an outside chance. electrek.co is claiming to have the initial scoop, but apparently Tesla themselves clarified that they hadn't decided yet and Tulsa was still in the running?

Sure, they are probably still trying to use us as leverage, but Austin is pretty darn expensive and as I understand it Tesla isn't allowed to sell directly in Texas currently? Oklahoma doesn't have a lot of stuff going for it intrinsically, but Tulsa is no slouch and both Tulsa and OK will do whatever they can to attract Tesla whereas Texas might be a bit more picky. With Musk's ambitious goals and crazy attitude, I can see Austin being much more tricky to build in than Tulsa.

Then again I just looked through some other articles and they pointed out that Musk has been in Austin recently and posted a bunch of Texas stuff. There are rumors they have already closed on a property out in a field outside of Hutto TX, which is the far north part of the Austin metro.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 18, 2020, 03:53:04 pm
This showed up on the OKCTalk.com forum:

May 15, 2020

Tesla’s next factory is going to be in Austin, Texas, and it’s going to happen quickly: https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/ (https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/)



Im pretty sure they read it here first. ::)



Tulsa in the running?

The reports started with Electrek, a pro-Tesla site whose co-founder Fred Lambert has good connections inside the company. Just before 3pm Eastern time, Lambert reported that Tesla had settled on Austin, Texas as the site of its next factory.

Hours after Electrek's story ran, three news organizations—TechCrunch, CNBC, and the Associated Press—all published stories stating that Tesla was still considering Tulsa, Oklahoma.

"A final decision has not been made, but Austin and Tulsa are among the finalists," Techcrunch's Kirsten Korosec writes, citing "multiple sources."

Lambert accused Tesla of feeding these stories to rival news organizations. I don't know if he's right, but it's not hard to imagine why Tesla would want to avoid tipping its hand. The threat to pick another location would give Tesla leverage in negotiations with Texas and Austin officials. We've asked Tesla for comment on the conflicting reports and will update this story if the company responds.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/05/report-tesla-plans-to-build-a-new-car-factory-in-texas/



So after @FredericLambert 's exclusive that Tesla chose Austin. Tesla reached out to not 1 or 2 but at least 3 different news outlets to say they were still considering Tulsa (LOL?!)
https://mobile.twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/1261414416886624259


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 18, 2020, 06:07:35 pm
We're still pulling for Tulsa.  Convinced that nothing is official until an official announcement has been made.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 18, 2020, 07:15:48 pm
Either way to be considered is a step in the right direction and evidence Tulsa can compete with larger cities for these types of jobs.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 19, 2020, 11:01:54 am
https://www.cybertruckbutts.com/

The people who made the big fu*king field website are at it again....


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 19, 2020, 01:38:47 pm
If the censor-bot munges this URL then make an educated guess:

https://www.bigfuckingfield.com/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 20, 2020, 08:17:28 am
I know some don’t like the face but I personally think it’s pretty creative.  How long will this stay up there, until they make a final decision?

 https://ktul.com/news/local/golden-driller-transformed-into-elon-musk (https://ktul.com/news/local/golden-driller-transformed-into-elon-musk)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 20, 2020, 08:26:39 am
There was a rumor on Reddit that Elon was going to be in Tulsa today to meet with the mayor. Most likely nothing more than a baseless rumor and someone trying to stir up excitement, but i'll keep my hopes high on the off chance that it's true 🤣


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on May 20, 2020, 08:45:07 am
lol, the face may be where I draw the line. Now we are groveling at the feet of Elon.

I wouldn't doubt he would pay a visit to acknowledge the recognition and let us down easy. Probably just a rumor that he is visiting today though.

Now how can we shift this energy into attracting more likely corporate entities to Tulsa/OK?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: AdamsHall on May 20, 2020, 09:13:13 am
lol, the face may be where I draw the line. Now we are groveling at the feet of Elon.

I wouldn't doubt he would pay a visit to acknowledge the recognition and let us down easy. Probably just a rumor that he is visiting today though.

Now how can we shift this energy into attracting more likely corporate entities to Tulsa/OK?

Like most, I anticipate Tulsa is being used to get more bene's from Austin/TX.  That said, this will not be Tesla's last factory/facility that they construct, so if we are really #2 and the HQ goes to DFW, then we should also have a good shot at future facility.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 20, 2020, 09:42:54 am
Like most, I anticipate Tulsa is being used to get more bene's from Austin/TX.  That said, this will not be Tesla's last factory/facility that they construct, so if we are really #2 and the HQ goes to DFW, then we should also have a good shot at future facility.

That would be pretty cool to see TX/OK as a major electric car manufacturing and R&D hub.  Similar to how the upper midwest was to car and auto parts manufacturers 50 years ago


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2020, 09:54:26 pm
That would be pretty cool to see TX/OK as a major electric car manufacturing and R&D hub.  Similar to how the upper midwest was to car and auto parts manufacturers 50 years ago


Would be ironic.   Electric car manufacturing in one state that abhors the concept!

Kind of like Okemah and northeast Oklahoma paying homage to Woody Guthrie!



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 21, 2020, 12:40:07 pm
lol, the face may be where I draw the line. Now we are groveling at the feet of Elon.

The face is pretty grotesque...

Isnt it still illegal in Oklahoma to buy a Tesla directly thru the company?  That sure isnt in our favor.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Dspike on May 21, 2020, 02:13:59 pm
Yes. But also true in Texas and probably not too relevant to whether either city has the capacity/workforce/incentives for a large manufacturing facility.

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/why-its-hard-to-buy-a-tesla-in-texas/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 21, 2020, 08:30:13 pm
The face is pretty grotesque...

Isnt it still illegal in Oklahoma to buy a Tesla directly thru the company?  That sure isnt in our favor.


You know that will be one of the first things discussed and agreed to.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 23, 2020, 05:57:23 pm
If Telsa were to commit to Oklahoma, you know the legislature would make the necessary changes to allow customers to buy direct from the factory.   I've never seen a situation in which Oklahoma didn't act to make changes to accommodate economic development.

Wouldn't rule out Tulsa acquiring the Telsa facillty.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 23, 2020, 08:41:47 pm
In a dystopian bid to lure Tesla’s Cybertruck Gigafactory to Tulsa, the Oklahoma state monument—a seven-story, 22-ton statue of an oil worker called The Golden Driller—has been redesigned as an effigy of Elon Musk. The likeness of X Æ A-12’s multibillionaire father, now called The Driller ‘Golden Elon,’ is one of the largest free-standing statues in the U.S.

“Tulsa is a city that doesn’t stifle entrepreneurs - we revere them!” Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum wrote on Facebook, prompting an onslaught of enraged replies. “Golden @elonmusk is now the 6th-tallest statue in the United States. #TulsaforTesla @Tesla.”

The gargantuan statue, unveiled earlier this week at a community event and on Bynum’s social media, now features a red Tesla logo painted on its chest. The Driller’s 48-foot belt, which once read “TULSA,” was changed to read “TESLA.” If you squint, the statue’s head now looks like a low-budget YouTube cartoon of Musk. “I was told onsite it was an ‘Elon Musk Face Skin,’” one worker wrote on Facebook. “It went on like a fruit roll-up.”

“It’s this weird, ghostly, white mask-like thing,” said Lucas Wrench, a 28-year-old Tulsa Artist Fellow, who runs an arts space called OK #1. “It sort of looks like if you FaceSwapped with some creature. I just couldn’t believe it. I’m shocked at how transparent it is—the kind of a symbol they created in putting this enormous billionaire, literally a giant towering billionaire in Tulsa—the lack of self-awareness. They’re groveling.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-giant-monument-to-tesla-billionaire-elon-musk-has-tulsa-residents-furious


The move is so absurd that one hardly knows how to react, but turning a representation of a worker (even though it was originally built by an oil company in the 50s) into an effigy of a union-busting factory owner coercing people to return to the line during a pandemic is probably not a good look.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/dyz8mw/tulsa-oklahoma-unveiled-a-7-story-tall-statue-of-elon-musk


The statue in question is the Golden Driller, a 43,500 pound likeness of an oil worker — the irony doesn’t escape us
https://futurism.com/the-byte/7-story-statue-elon-musk-looks-absolutely-terrible

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/05/22/14/28705014-0-image-a-16_1590153151521.jpg)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 24, 2020, 11:37:12 am

Tulsa IMO has a very good chance of securing the Telsa Plant.

If Telsa were going to Texas, you bet they would have already selected Austin.   Texas isn't going to give any more incentives to lure Telsa and they know it.  They are playing this game to see what they can get from Oklahoma.  They know Oklahoma's track record on tax incentives thru the old Oklahoma City GM plant debacle.

If we were to get this plant; it will be great for all of Oklahoma particularly the Tulsa, Muskogee and Bartlesville (Northeast Quadrant) would reap the benefits of employment and support from this huge mega plant.
(https://www.joc.com/sites/default/files/field_feature_image/catoosa.jpg)

Let's not forget; Tulsa is on a barge canal transportation system Ports of Catoosa/Muskogee, an extra alternative that Austin doesn't have.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 24, 2020, 03:23:11 pm
I don’t know how much, if any, the port plays into this but it certainly doesn’t hurt and it is something they don’t have in Austin/central TX.  Rail and highway access seem like they would be more important.  So that begs the question if Tulsa did land a plant where would it go?  Assuming the Navistar plant is off the table.. ;)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 24, 2020, 06:14:45 pm
I don’t know how much, if any, the port plays into this but it certainly doesn’t hurt and it is something they don’t have in Austin/central TX.  Rail and highway access seem like they would be more important.  So that begs the question if Tulsa did land a plant where would it go?  Assuming the Navistar plant is off the table.. ;)

Isn't GKFF giving away free land in the peoria mohawk industrial park? That's probably an option.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 24, 2020, 09:21:51 pm
Isn't GKFF giving away free land in the peoria mohawk industrial park? That's probably an option.

Yes but it doesn’t currently have rail access.  I would think out by the airport would be a better location - better air, rail and highway access.

Peoria-Mohawk
(https://base.imgix.net/files/base/ebm/industryweek/image/2019/05/industryweek_32846_peoriamohawk_1_0.png?auto=format&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=432&w=768)

Airport industrial options
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/4f/04fafe97-ea84-59d8-a8f6-71c4845a550e/523d9864cfa50.image.jpg?resize=500%2C723)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 25, 2020, 11:06:57 am
Since the GKFF land doesn't have rail access that would not be an option. Direct rail access to a major line is critical to these facilities.

The other most likely spot outside of the bus plant or vacant land near the airport would be the former Black Fox site that PSO transferred to the Port Authority. It has direct access to Union Pacific through a rail spur built for Sofidel and the Port Authority is building barge access there so they'd have direct loading capabilities on the water and rail there.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 25, 2020, 03:45:07 pm
Since the GKFF land doesn't have rail access that would not be an option. Direct rail access to a major line is critical to these facilities.

The other most likely spot outside of the bus plant or vacant land near the airport would be the former Black Fox site that PSO transferred to the Port Authority. It has direct access to Union Pacific through a rail spur built for Sofidel and the Port Authority is building barge access there so they'd have direct loading capabilities on the water and rail there.

Black Fox would be a good location for those reasons.  It would certainly be a shot in the arm for Inola and likely would result in a lot of new housing and development in the New Tulsa area.  I would think extending 41st St with a new interchange at the Creek Turnpike and a new bridge over the Verdigris would be needed if something that large was built there.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 25, 2020, 11:46:52 pm
Something else to think about with the SpaceX launch soon... Jim Bridenstine I'm sure has had a conversation or two with Elon. Wonder if that would give Tulsa some favor-ability politically given his ambitions for SpaceX.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 26, 2020, 10:15:01 am
So evidently Tesla officials visited two sites, was it ever known which ones they visited?  It seems like Navistar checks a lot of boxes but it wouldn't be a very good look for the city to kick them out.  Spirit Aerosystems also uses part of the old bomber factory. 

I wonder if the Cherokee Industrial Park has a site big enough with rail access?  That would be the best location IMO, more central to existing neighborhoods in Tulsa and would likely pull Owasso closer to Hwy 75.  So much new development in Tulsa County has been in the southern parts it would be great to see more in the northern area.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: owenix on May 26, 2020, 04:14:08 pm
Looking at the gigafactory outside of reno I don't see any kind of multimodal transport. Odd for an auto manufacturer, but I think the vision is battery powered self driving trucks.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 26, 2020, 04:27:13 pm
Looking at the gigafactory outside of reno I don't see any kind of multimodal transport. Odd for an auto manufacturer, but I think the vision is battery powered self driving trucks.

The Reno plant only makes batteries (same as the Buffalo plant) that's why rail access wasn't as important, they don't make any cars there. Shanghai and Fremont are the only two plants for Tesla that make the actual vehicles. The plant they are looking at now will be larger than Reno/Buffalo and employ at least as many as the Fremont Plant which has about 10,000 employees. It will be producing the actual vehicles (CyberTruck and the Model Y) and almost every auto plant has direct rail access to the major line (Union Pacific, etc.)

The site in Austin (Hutto) was the runner up to Reno site. That's why a lot of people have zeroed in on thinking Austin has already landed the plant in the press. That's been the talk for a year at least of that's where the next Tesla plant would go.

So, in the long run I think that would bode well for us if we're the runner up and they do build on the Hutto site, Tulsa could very well be in line for the next plant they build. Just might be another 3-5 years down the road.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 26, 2020, 04:44:46 pm
So evidently Tesla officials visited two sites, was it ever known which ones they visited?  It seems like Navistar checks a lot of boxes but it wouldn't be a very good look for the city to kick them out.  Spirit Aerosystems also uses part of the old bomber factory. 

I wonder if the Cherokee Industrial Park has a site big enough with rail access?  That would be the best location IMO, more central to existing neighborhoods in Tulsa and would likely pull Owasso closer to Hwy 75.  So much new development in Tulsa County has been in the southern parts it would be great to see more in the northern area.

I would like to see development on the north side rather than out here in the south.  Traffic on S Memorial is horrible, even with Covid19.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 26, 2020, 06:56:20 pm
It makes the most sense for it to be located north with rail access near the airport or port or out by Owasso where Whirlpool/Verizon/Honeywell/Macys are.

The only decent south location I can think of with land and rail access would be in Jenks near Kimberly Clark, but there are so many neighborhoods around them now I'm sure there would be a zoning fight. And traffic would be awful, they would have to fix the US75 stop light at 141st in Glenpool. Maybe Coweta?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 26, 2020, 08:26:10 pm
It makes the most sense for it to be located north with rail access near the airport or port or out by Owasso where Whirlpool/Verizon/Honeywell/Macys are.

The only decent south location I can think of with land and rail access would be in Jenks near Kimberly Clark, but there are so many neighborhoods around them now I'm sure there would be a zoning fight. And traffic would be awful, they would have to fix the US75 stop light at 141st in Glenpool. Maybe Coweta?

Anything that big built near Kimberly Clark would make driving on S Memorial look like Los Angeles.  No thanks, it's bad enough already.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 26, 2020, 09:08:27 pm
Anything that big built near Kimberly Clark would make driving on S Memorial look like Los Angeles.  No thanks, it's bad enough already.

I assume traffic would go west to US-75, but not much better.

And I have said that the stupid west side Gilcrease turnpike should have been built from the US-169/Creek Turnpike split to go south across the river to relieve traffic on Memorial.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 26, 2020, 11:11:17 pm
I assume traffic would go west to US-75, but not much better.

And I have said that the stupid west side Gilcrease turnpike should have been built from the US-169/Creek Turnpike split to go south across the river to relieve traffic on Memorial.

Is the Yale bridge proposal officially dead?  Seems like that would help ease traffic moving between Tulsa and Jenks/Bixby.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 27, 2020, 03:31:56 pm
I guess Stitt went to Florida for the SpaceX launch and to meet up with Elon? Lol

https://twitter.com/GovStitt/status/1265746778734944259?s=20


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on May 28, 2020, 09:41:02 am
I guess Stitt went to Florida for the SpaceX launch and to meet up with Elon? Lol

https://twitter.com/GovStitt/status/1265746778734944259?s=20

Hey, if we are trying to sell Tulsa and OK, this is the kind of stuff you do.  And man, whether or not a person is in favor of Tesla coming, some of the comments are embarrassing to the state.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on May 28, 2020, 10:23:04 am
I agree. If we're trying to get Tesla here, we should go all out in our efforts. I'm encouraged that we're still getting face time and publicity... if it was a lock for Austin I wouldn't think we'd still be around.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on May 28, 2020, 10:37:42 am
I agree. If we're trying to get Tesla here, we should go all out in our efforts. I'm encouraged that we're still getting face time and publicity... if it was a lock for Austin I wouldn't think we'd still be around.

I don't think they have decided on Austin.  Think about what Texas has to offer and the fact that Austin is now becoming a victim of its own aggressive growth (traffic).  

IMO Telsa wants Tulsa to throw in a few more incentives and perks.  Telsa isn't going to get anymore perks and incentives from Austin...  ...they are trying  to get more from Tulsa, hoping the State of Oklahoma will throw in the kitchen sink.

That explains Governor Stitt's recent meeting with Elon Musk.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 28, 2020, 02:32:42 pm
Interesting information in this article: https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gov-kevin-stitt-and-local-officials-make-pitch-for-tulsa-during-meeting-with-elon-musk/article_3f72c855-4794-52d7-8439-6cc4870fd7c7.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

I figured the concern with Tulsa, as it typically is, is about workforce and the lack of thousands of available skilled employees. Elon apparently has that concern when it comes to engineers.

This article also kind of reads like Tulsa may not be the frontrunner or perhaps Elon just isn't focused on site selection right now:

Quote
Kouplen said he asked Musk to come to Tulsa before making a decision and Musk said he would consider it.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 28, 2020, 02:48:41 pm
I thought this was interesting considering all the hand-wringing about it by some Tulsans

Quote
He said Musk asked about the Golden Driller, and a recent attention-grabbing  effort in which Musk's likeness was painted on the giant figure's face and the Tesla symbol onto its belt buckle.

Musk wanted to know if it was real or photo shopped, Kouplen said.

“He thought that was pretty cool,” Kouplen said.

Regarding the lack of skilled engineers, that has never hurt AA or the other aerospace companies that have thousands of employees in Tulsa.  While we don't have a major state university in the city TU has a well-known engineering school and we are 1.5 hours from OSU and 2 hours from both OU and UofArkansas combined that's over 65k students.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 28, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
Well I guess the Navistar/IC Bus plant is off the table

 https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/city-of-tulsa-ic-bus-announce-new-20-year-agreement-for-bus-manufacturing-plant-301067069.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/city-of-tulsa-ic-bus-announce-new-20-year-agreement-for-bus-manufacturing-plant-301067069.html)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on May 29, 2020, 12:38:26 pm
I thought this was interesting considering all the hand-wringing about it by some Tulsans

Regarding the lack of skilled engineers, that has never hurt AA or the other aerospace companies that have thousands of employees in Tulsa.  While we don't have a major state university in the city TU has a well-known engineering school and we are 1.5 hours from OSU and 2 hours from both OU and UofArkansas combined that's over 65k students.

Agreed. Tulsa and the surrounding area(s) would be more than able to supply the needs for engineers and skilled technical workers. But, so would Austin.  Between UT and TAMU (only two hours away), there are over 100K students.

I just did quick LinkedIn search (which won't be exact, but close enough). Most of the Tesla employees come from where you would expect.  CA schools and a number of the more elite national universities (MIT, Purdue, GA Tech, etc...) make up the bulk of the universities. But also, interestingly, there are 115 people from TAMU.  That is more than USC, and close to MIT.   It's also surprising because there are only 49 from UT Austin.  Comparatively, there are 14 from OSU, 15 from OU, 8 from UofA.  Not sure what the connection of TAMU to Tesla is, but that is high number compared to other regional schools.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 29, 2020, 01:49:19 pm
Agreed. Tulsa and the surrounding area(s) would be more than able to supply the needs for engineers and skilled technical workers. But, so would Austin.  Between UT and TAMU (only two hours away), there are over 100K students.

I just did quick LinkedIn search (which won't be exact, but close enough). Most of the Tesla employees come from where you would expect.  CA schools and a number of the more elite national universities (MIT, Purdue, GA Tech, etc...) make up the bulk of the universities. But also, interestingly, there are 115 people from TAMU.  That is more than USC, and close to MIT.   It's also surprising because there are only 49 from UT Austin.  Comparatively, there are 14 from OSU, 15 from OU, 8 from UofA.  Not sure what the connection of TAMU to Tesla is, but that is high number compared to other regional schools.



Texas A&M has a very good (and large) mechanical engineering program.  It's slightly more of a stretch but both KU and KSU have strong engineering programs; KU is 4 hours and KSU is 4.5 hours away.  Both have sizable alumni bases in Tulsa.

If we're not selected maybe this gets the state to get serious about expanding OU-Tulsa and OSU-Tulsa because this is a major deficiency for the Tulsa area.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 29, 2020, 09:20:19 pm
I thought this was interesting considering all the hand-wringing about it by some Tulsans

Regarding the lack of skilled engineers, that has never hurt AA or the other aerospace companies that have thousands of employees in Tulsa.  While we don't have a major state university in the city TU has a well-known engineering school and we are 1.5 hours from OSU and 2 hours from both OU and UofArkansas combined that's over 65k students.


Just some basic background info;

In 2018, OSU had 831 graduates in the school of Engineering, Architecture and Technology (260 Mechanical Engineers).   Seems like I remember there are 'about' 25,000 full time at Stillwater and another 10,000 spread around the other campus', many of them part time.  (35,000 is OSU stated number.)  That is a pretty small number of STEM, but on a par with national population of STEM people working nationwide. 

Sadly, Oklahoma doesn't have the capacity to hire anywhere near 800 per year.  We lose a lot outside of OK.  Rebound gave some numbers about Tesla employee schools.  I would like to know current number of STEMs they employ.  Guy I worked with got interview with them in CA a few years ago (OSU grad) and at the time, I think he said they had 3 or 4 thousand technology types.

OSU has a great Engineering school!  We don't get all the recognition - or the support - we deserve for it, both in state and nationwide.

Bottom line, Tesla would still be trying to import people to work there.   And it would be an uphill battle.







Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 30, 2020, 07:22:40 am
Honest question, how many people actually working in the plant have engineering degrees?  Aren’t most assembly line workers that you could recruit from Tulsa Tech or Tulsa Welding School similar to many of the employees working at the AA maintenance base?  I understand electric cars are somewhat different but all 10k+ workers won’t need college degrees let alone mechanical engineering degrees.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 30, 2020, 02:14:08 pm
Honest question, how many people actually working in the plant have engineering degrees?  Aren’t most assembly line workers that you could recruit from Tulsa Tech or Tulsa Welding School similar to many of the employees working at the AA maintenance base?  I understand electric cars are somewhat different but all 10k+ workers won’t need college degrees let alone mechanical engineering degrees.

They will need much less training than the people at AA. It's more like the employees at the bus factory.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2020, 09:32:27 pm
Honest question, how many people actually working in the plant have engineering degrees?  Aren’t most assembly line workers that you could recruit from Tulsa Tech or Tulsa Welding School similar to many of the employees working at the AA maintenance base?  I understand electric cars are somewhat different but all 10k+ workers won’t need college degrees let alone mechanical engineering degrees.


That's the question I have about the CA Tesla plant. Should be somewhat similar.  Rebound gave some numbers - couple hundred engineering types from the schools he mentioned.  Friend said there were several thousand when he went there...whatever that is.  Have not heard any numbers since.

If it is only a thousand needed here, that could still be a problem. 



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on May 31, 2020, 08:47:39 am
Texas A&M has a very good (and large) mechanical engineering program.  It's slightly more of a stretch but both KU and KSU have strong engineering programs; KU is 4 hours and KSU is 4.5 hours away.  Both have sizable alumni bases in Tulsa.

If we're not selected maybe this gets the state to get serious about expanding OU-Tulsa and OSU-Tulsa because this is a major deficiency for the Tulsa area.

Not one of the engineering programs mentioned in this thread to feed a Tulsa Tesla plant is ranked  in the top 100 by US News - Not the University of Tulsa, not OSU, not OU, not Arkansas, nor KU or KSU.

There are seven top 100 engineering programs within comparable distances from Hutto,Texas


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on May 31, 2020, 03:54:41 pm
I saw a post on Reddit yesterday about a guy whose relative works for a company that has been asked to bid on a "Tesla building" in Tulsa. Hasn't been given any further info on it yet. Could be a showroom, service center, etc. Timing doesn't seem right for it to be the factory. Still interesting though


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 31, 2020, 04:29:18 pm
Not one of the engineering programs mentioned in this thread to feed a Tulsa Tesla plant is ranked  in the top 100 by US News.

There are seven top 100 engineering programs within comparable distances from Hutto,Texas

Again most of these assembly line workers don’t need college degrees.  I would put our skilled workforce in oil & gas components and aerospace ahead of anything Austin/Hutto offers.  Do all Tesla engineers need to be from Top 100 engineering schools?  Many would relocate from CA anyway, and I’m sure would be happy to move to an affordable state.  The rest would probably be a mix of the regional schools and Texas/Colorado.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on June 01, 2020, 11:35:00 am
Not sure where this website came from, but worth sharing around. https://www.tulsafortesla.com/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 01, 2020, 02:03:29 pm
Again most of these assembly line workers don’t need college degrees.  I would put our skilled workforce in oil & gas components and aerospace ahead of anything Austin/Hutto offers.  Do all Tesla engineers need to be from Top 100 engineering schools?  Many would relocate from CA anyway, and I’m sure would be happy to move to an affordable state.  The rest would probably be a mix of the regional schools and Texas/Colorado.

You are right, the vast majority of these jobs will only require a high school/GED education and they are even willing to hire people without those if they have experience in similar type of jobs. The amount of the highly skilled workers they will need to recruit is a much smaller piece of the pie. Most of assembly line jobs pay $40k/year starting out full-time. That's where we have a strong case to make against even Austin, $40k in Tulsa goes a lot further to having a nicer life than in Austin.

Doubling the size of OU/OSU/TU likely wouldn't make much of a dent for a economic development project of this size. College pipelines are critical to smaller and more regional sized firms to grow and are important to the long term viability of large companies. It will be important to add/beef up programs to fill roles for Tesla long term if they do locate here to fill job openings for natural turnover/growth, which is slower and more stable than an initial scale up. This is a much smaller concern than the initial scale up phase, that's where a lot of the risk plays out.

Really it all boils down to do companies think they can recruit to Tulsa. For any major expansion or relocation of over a thousand employees, outside of a small handful of metros like DC, NYC, San Fran, etc. they are going to be a net importer of people to scale up to a level of employment quickly (within a year or two). This is why places like Austin, Nashville, Denver, Salt Lake City, Portland (medium sized metros) have been so successful is because they invested heavily on quality of life programs and built the blocks of a city people wanted to relocate, which in return helped them be a net importer of graduates (not just from local universities) and gave companies the confidence they can fill job positions in those markets and companies followed. 

Frankly, that's why the GKFF remote worker program is such a huge marketing piece that some don't even realize. We can now go to a company and say we had 20,000 people apply to move to Tulsa last year, that helps reduce some of that fear of hiring/talent pipelines of being able to bring in a thousand or more employees with a large portion of those probably being from surrounding markets like Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, etc. Places like Dallas/Houston have ate Oklahoma's lunch in this regard marketing to companies looking to expand. It's really astonishing how many people I talk to in Dallas, Houston and Austin that moved from Oklahoma. They didn't build those markets off UT and A&M grads only - they built it off OSU, OU, LSU, U of A, KU, KSU and people of those states through showing that companies had the ability to pull in people from a regional footprint.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on June 01, 2020, 04:44:13 pm
Congratulations!

Tesla Delivery and Service Center. Going in at 6010 South 129th Avenue East. Currently set to bid the middle of June. Shows to be 23,718 square feet.

OKCTalk.com
will release details later...  https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&p=1122371#post1122371 (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&p=1122371#post1122371)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on June 01, 2020, 04:46:20 pm
I saw a post on Reddit yesterday about a guy whose relative works for a company that has been asked to bid on a "Tesla building" in Tulsa. Hasn't been given any further info on it yet. Could be a showroom, service center, etc. Timing doesn't seem right for it to be the factory. Still interesting though

There is a Tesla Service Center planned for 61st & 129th E Ave.  It's going an existing building with the build-out starting later this summer.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on June 01, 2020, 05:14:00 pm
Telsa Center via OKCTalk.com

(https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tesla4.jpg)

(https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tesla2.jpg)

(https://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tesla3.jpg)

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&p=1122411#post1122411 (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43547&page=2&p=1122411#post1122411)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 05, 2020, 08:19:52 pm
There is a Tesla Service Center planned for 61st & 129th E Ave.  It's going an existing building with the build-out starting later this summer.


That will be great use of that building!   Goodwill Industries built that a couple years ago and was planning some kind of facility there.  Their situation apparently changed and it went up for sale quite a while ago.  Good to see it get filled up.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on June 23, 2020, 01:28:32 pm
https://austonia.com/amp/elon-musk-tesla-2646237196?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=5619951&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=Austonia&__twitter_impression=true

Not a lot of information coming out on Tesla's decision. However based on what is being reported it seems Austin is probably the first choice for Tesla.

Last week Elon tweeted that nothing has been finalized and multiple options are still being considered.

It seems Tulsa is in fact being used as leverage, or at least a backup plan, to expedite things in Austin.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on June 23, 2020, 02:55:49 pm
https://austonia.com/amp/elon-musk-tesla-2646237196?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=5619951&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=Austonia&__twitter_impression=true

Not a lot of information coming out on Tesla's decision. However based on what is being reported it seems Austin is probably the first choice for Tesla.

Last week Elon tweeted that nothing has been finalized and multiple options are still being considered.

It seems Tulsa is in fact being used as leverage, or at least a backup plan, to expedite things in Austin.

Combined with the story in the Business Journals, it's looking like Austin is the first and second choice (with the Hutto site looking like the runner-up again).
 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on June 23, 2020, 04:17:53 pm
I think this process has put Tulsa firmly on their radar for future expansion either Tesla or SpaceX.  Just need to continue building momentum and not lay up.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 23, 2020, 09:35:24 pm
https://austonia.com/amp/elon-musk-tesla-2646237196?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=5619951&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=Austonia&__twitter_impression=true

Not a lot of information coming out on Tesla's decision. However based on what is being reported it seems Austin is probably the first choice for Tesla.

Last week Elon tweeted that nothing has been finalized and multiple options are still being considered.

It seems Tulsa is in fact being used as leverage, or at least a backup plan, to expedite things in Austin.



Never was any doubt about that leverage thing.   And last weekend's coronafest would have definitely sealed the deal if there had been a chance.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on June 24, 2020, 09:15:27 am
Never was any doubt about that leverage thing.   And last weekend's coronafest would have definitely sealed the deal if there had been a chance.

I'm going to disagree with the "coronafest" outcome.  I think Tulsa handled itself well.  While I think the rally was a stupid idea in the first place, that wasn't really our call.  With all the various factions in play, it could have gone South pretty hard.  Instead, we took a difficult situation and showed that events like this can be handled without extremism and violence.  Overall, I think it was a positive for Tulsa. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on June 24, 2020, 10:17:16 am
I'm going to disagree with the "coronafest" outcome.  I think Tulsa handled itself well.  While I think the rally was a stupid idea in the first place, that wasn't really our call.  With all the various factions in play, it could have gone South pretty hard.  Instead, we took a difficult situation and showed that events like this can be handled without extremism and violence.  Overall, I think it was a positive for Tulsa. 

Agree.  If there is anything to learn or improve on it is that we need more and better higher education opportunities and to raise our profile as a city on the rise.  Elon himself said he was concerned about this:

Quote
“He has some concerns about the ability to attract enough engineers into Tulsa just because he is not familiar with Tulsa and we don’t have a University of Texas here in town that pumps out thousands of engineers,” Commerce and Workforce Development Secretary Sean Kouplen said Thursday.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on June 26, 2020, 07:28:23 am
Not over yet. Interesting quote from this article from yesterday:

Quote
I am in constant contact with Tesla executives and they have assured me that there has been no decision made yet,” he said. “They are simply going through the same process with Austin that they went through with Tulsa, and once they have accumulated all of the data and all of the facts they will make their decision.

If Tesla had made a decision I don't think they'd be reaching out to the secretary of commerce on the daily unless they were seeking additional incentives, and the state has not given any indication that they're changing anything they've offered.

I still think Austin is probably the first choice, but it seems Tulsa is still legitimately being considered.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dont-let-the-silence-fool-you-tulsa-still-in-the-running-for-tesla-factory-state/article_29961172-5690-57ce-ad87-d7b8e1f2068d.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 26, 2020, 06:46:52 pm
Not over yet. Interesting quote from this article from yesterday:

If Tesla had made a decision I don't think they'd be reaching out to the secretary of commerce on the daily unless they were seeking additional incentives, and the state has not given any indication that they're changing anything they've offered.

I still think Austin is probably the first choice, but it seems Tulsa is still legitimately being considered.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dont-let-the-silence-fool-you-tulsa-still-in-the-running-for-tesla-factory-state/article_29961172-5690-57ce-ad87-d7b8e1f2068d.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

I agree, it's not over yet. I don't think the national media guys understand how incentive packages work in Texas. The vote that happened in Austin was just an approval to offer Tesla certain things. It's in no way binding and is the process they have to follow for any deal. Dallas did a similar vote for Amazon, didn't mean HQ2 was going to Dallas. The main guy who broke the story was pissed about being discredited by Tesla so he's hell bent on publishing 'stories' to say he was right all along.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on June 26, 2020, 07:35:43 pm
I agree, it's not over yet. I don't think the national media guys understand how incentive packages work in Texas. The vote that happened in Austin was just an approval to offer Tesla certain things. It's in no way binding and is the process they have to follow for any deal. Dallas did a similar vote for Amazon, didn't mean HQ2 was going to Dallas. The main guy who broke the story was pissed about being discredited by Tesla so he's hell bent on publishing 'stories' to say he was right all along.

Yeah I, like most, were growing concerned with how quiet things got then suddenly everything came out about Austin. Then state officials are still claiming they're in contact daily with Tesla officials, which i think if nothing else tells us we're still in the running to some degree.

I will say Tulsa seems to be good at keeping quiet with this sort of thing. Think of big announcements like WPX, American Airlines, etc. No one knew it was happening until they scheduled a press conference the same day lol.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Conan71 on June 29, 2020, 08:36:48 pm
Maybe Tulsa will finally sprout a set in getting a four year state university with a heavy emphasis on engineering and tech.  UT Austin has got to be a major consideration in their decision as far as a fertile bed of future employees aside from all the other tech there.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 01, 2020, 05:29:09 pm
Looks like Elon will be planning a trip to Tulsa...

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1278451464562753537?s=20

If nothing else, this is a huge plus for a potential future factory, if Tulsa is not chosen for this one.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 01, 2020, 05:37:31 pm
Also, interesting to note, Austin and Travis County have been considering shutting back down because of their recent spike in COVID cases. If I recall correctly, county officials weren't holding any meetings due to COVID, and called a special meeting just to discuss Tesla incentives.

From what I've gathered, Austin officials dragging their feet is what cost them the last factory. People have speculated that Tulsa is Tesla's backup plan if Austin and Travis County officials can't get the process expedited.

It could be possible that if Travis County shut down again and couldn't give Tesla what they want in the timeliness they want it, that Tesla chooses Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on July 01, 2020, 06:28:08 pm
Also, interesting to note, Austin and Travis County have been considering shutting back down because of their recent spike in COVID cases. If I recall correctly, county officials weren't holding any meetings due to COVID, and called a special meeting just to discuss Tesla incentives.

From what I've gathered, Austin officials dragging their feet is what cost them the last factory. People have speculated that Tulsa is Tesla's backup plan if Austin and Travis County officials can't get the process expedited.

It could be possible that if Travis County shut down again and couldn't give Tesla what they want in the timeliness they want it, that Tesla chooses Tulsa.



All we have to do is out-Texas Texas.

 "There are more important things than living. And that's saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving this country for all of us."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-reopening-economy-more-important-things-n1188911


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on July 01, 2020, 06:30:13 pm
Don't know if this comparion has been posted or not; however here goes...

'Don't let the silence fool you. Tulsa still in the running for Tesla factory, state official says'

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dont-let-the-silence-fool-you-tulsa-still-in-the-running-for-tesla-factory-state/article_29961172-5690-57ce-ad87-d7b8e1f2068d.html#1 (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dont-let-the-silence-fool-you-tulsa-still-in-the-running-for-tesla-factory-state/article_29961172-5690-57ce-ad87-d7b8e1f2068d.html#1)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on July 01, 2020, 06:34:17 pm


All we have to do is out-Texas Texas.

 "There are more important things than living. And that's saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving this country for all of us."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-reopening-economy-more-important-things-n1188911

Good post, Patric


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 01, 2020, 09:23:50 pm
Travis County is dragging its feet postponing approval of incentives to July 7.  The longer they drag on the better our chances IMO.

 https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/ (https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 01, 2020, 09:53:04 pm
Travis County is dragging its feet postponing approval of incentives to July 7.  The longer they drag on the better our chances IMO.

 https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/ (https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/)

Oh wow I was under the impression they had already approved the incentive package. From what i've been told Tesla has every intention of making the announcement in July. That article says the next meetings for discussion are scheduled for July 7th and 10th.

Wouldn't be surprised if Tesla gave them a deadline to decide or they'd go elsewhere.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 01, 2020, 10:13:43 pm
Oh wow I was under the impression they had already approved the incentive package. From what i've been told Tesla has every intention of making the announcement in July. That article says the next meetings for discussion are scheduled for July 7th and 10th.

Wouldn't be surprised if Tesla gave them a deadline to decide or they'd go elsewhere.

July 7th is for the County incentives.

July 10th is for ISD property tax incentives (school district which account for usually about 50% or more of people's tax bill in most areas of Texas). This is really the critical one, because  they tax personal property for businesses. So, for Tesla, the tax bill would be astronomical given the specialized equipment needed in the plant. Telsa officials said in the last meeting for the ISD that if this isn't approved they will not build the plant there. The other county incentives are probably just icing on the cake type thing.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: DowntownDan on July 02, 2020, 01:17:56 pm
Travis County is dragging its feet postponing approval of incentives to July 7.  The longer they drag on the better our chances IMO.

 https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/ (https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/business/2020/06/30/travis-county-continues-tesla-deliberations-with-no-date-set-for-vote-on-economic-incentives/)

"We are skeptical. Numerous studies have shown that local governments rarely if ever receive benefits commensurate with what incentives cost, and, despite what they say, businesses rarely if ever give incentives much weight when deciding where to locate," said local resident Michael Floyd, who spoke on behalf of Central Texas Interfaith."

Truth. We will surely give them whatever they want. Hell, we can just raise a tax and pay it directly to Elon Musk's account, because we are that desperate. But the last part is the difference. Austin has a highly educated workforce and major college. Tulsa has a bunch of people complaining about haircuts and chilis and teachers who had to literally walk to OKC for a modest raise. It's not even a close call imo that they'll choose Austin with whatever they give them.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 02, 2020, 10:51:46 pm
Austin does have the leg up on % of people with college degrees.  But you don’t need a college degree to work on the assembly line at an auto manufacturing plant.  Tulsa has the better workforce for this type of specialized manufacturing with our aerospace (AA, Spirit, NORDAM, etc), mechanical equipment (AAON, Whirlpool, etc) and oil & gas equipment (Baker Hughes, H&P, Process Mfr, Linde, etc) industries.  We have one of the best trade schools in the region and one of the top welding schools in the country. 

I’m sure the incentives deal will work in Texas’ favor but this type of operation is definitely in our wheelhouse.  I’m still wondering where they would put the factory here, is it the PSO Black Fox site?  Has Tesla put an offer on any property outside Tulsa like they have outside Austin?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 03, 2020, 06:05:27 pm
So apparently there's a Twitter account that tracks Elon/Spacex's private jet. I have no clue if this is legit, but according to this account it stopped in Tulsa today:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElonJet/status/1279161173775171590


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 03, 2020, 07:01:18 pm
"Tulsa has a bunch of people complaining about haircuts and chilis and teachers who had to literally walk to OKC for a modest raise. It's not even a close call imo that they'll choose Austin with whatever they give them.

I think you confused Tulsa with Texas

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/texas-governor-closes-bars-lawsuit-protest
"Bar Lives Matter" Rally in Austin

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/lawsuit-filed-against-gov-abbott-for-face-mask-order/2400685/
Lawsuit by Texas Businesses against facemarks

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/politics/ted-cruz-texas-hair-salon-shelley-luther/index.html
Hair Salon owner arrested while opening business during shutdown, then Ted Cruz gets haircut there

Texas has just as many of these people as Oklahoma. The cities are just bigger, so it creates a 'perception' nationally that Texas is more liberal. I can tell you as someone who has to live here now it is not. Frankly, most Texans think their s*** doesn't stink so they're 10x more vocal about their "right" to do whatever they want here than I've ever experienced in Oklahoma.

Midtown Tulsa is just as liberal as Austin, it's just smaller given the MSA is half the size. There's not much difference between Round Rock/Georgetown as there is Broken Arrow/Owasso.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 04, 2020, 08:30:25 am
So apparently there's a Twitter account that tracks Elon/Spacex's private jet. I have no clue if this is legit, but according to this account it stopped in Tulsa today:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElonJet/status/1279161173775171590


Elon was in Tulsa yesterday:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1279262905410568193?s=20


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on July 04, 2020, 09:57:28 am
Any lingering doubts Tulsans might have about whether Tesla is seriously considering building its next factory here vanished late Friday afternoon when company CEO Elon Musk arrived in town in his private plane.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-makes-visit-to-tulsa/article_75fe10c3-5fc4-54d1-9d9c-ffee4c1b50c5.html

It means he's either legitimately interested, or has the cash to put on a show.




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 04, 2020, 10:25:02 am
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-makes-visit-to-tulsa/article_75fe10c3-5fc4-54d1-9d9c-ffee4c1b50c5.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Quote
“To maximize our time together, we had set up a tent, table, chairs, some snacks and water on the site,” Kouplen said. “... You can see downtown from the site, we are up high on a hill, it is really a beautiful day. So we’re basically just having our little over an hour conversation out there in the middle of the field.”

So....if this site has a view of downtown, that pretty much rules out Inola, or anything in the east Tulsa area. Is this proposed site on the west side of the river? Didn't the city offer some land over there to Amazon for HQ2? There's rail access all over the place, which is probably the most important thing for a car manufacturer.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 04, 2020, 12:28:28 pm
If you look at the Tesla factory in Fremont CA on Google Maps or Google Earth, there are no rail lines going into the facility. There was at one time when it was the joint Toyota/GM  NUMMI plant. There is a Union Pacific rail yard immediately east of the plant used for shunting, but it's not a load/unload yard.

Tesla's Nevada Giga Factory does not have a rail line running to it either. There is a main rail line near by, but the access point for load/unload is 20 miles west in Sparks NV.

 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on July 04, 2020, 12:31:54 pm
The location appears to be the southeast corner of Hwy 412 and the Creek turnpike.  Wagoner County but in Tulsa's city limits.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on July 04, 2020, 12:34:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/xqFFTk2.png)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 04, 2020, 12:42:29 pm
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-makes-visit-to-tulsa/article_75fe10c3-5fc4-54d1-9d9c-ffee4c1b50c5.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

So....if this site has a view of downtown, that pretty much rules out Inola, or anything in the east Tulsa area. Is this proposed site on the west side of the river? Didn't the city offer some land over there to Amazon for HQ2? There's rail access all over the place, which is probably the most important thing for a car manufacturer.

Could very well be wrong, but kine of looks like somewhere near the Kimberly Clark Plant given the background (look at the transmission line tower in the back of the photo in the article), looks kinda of like those... that area you can see Downtown Tulsa as well from those bluffs around White Hawk.

https://goo.gl/maps/fb93WQTDUjBqtY5s5

My other guesses would be Bales Park (the city had offered to swap this site with Simon at one point and relocate the park/housing elsewhere).

There's a big field of land on the west end of Chandler Park that's privately owned.

Then the last potential sites I can think of would be the Northwest Passage area which you can see Downtown from many of the hills in that area.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 04, 2020, 12:46:06 pm
The location appears to be the southeast corner of Hwy 412 and the Creek turnpike.  Wagoner County but in Tulsa's city limits.

Ah yes, didn't even think about that you can see Downtown driving in from 412, would make sense that's the location. I think that area has transmission lines from GRDA too right? He could get power from a renewable source for the plant too.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on July 04, 2020, 12:52:42 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/CbFVBor.png)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 04, 2020, 03:12:00 pm
Yep looks like that is the site, and it is indeed within Tulsa city limits.  If the plant goes there you have to believe that would be a major boon for the areas of East Tulsa between 169 and the Creek south of 44.

Are those old pit mines over there?  I know there is a lot of mining in that area closer to the port.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: smitteebc on July 04, 2020, 04:45:40 pm
It appears to be right here based on the slides shared.

(https://i.ibb.co/RHDgnNs/D9302-FA6-6-D60-4-BA6-B3-C2-584770129652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JGnNK6)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 04, 2020, 06:04:48 pm
It appears to be right here based on the slides shared.

(https://i.ibb.co/RHDgnNs/D9302-FA6-6-D60-4-BA6-B3-C2-584770129652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JGnNK6)



I was originally told that was one of the two proposed sites. Wasn't sure if it was east or west side of the turnpike though. I didn't think you could see downtown from there though


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 05, 2020, 06:33:03 pm
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-makes-visit-to-tulsa/article_75fe10c3-5fc4-54d1-9d9c-ffee4c1b50c5.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

So....if this site has a view of downtown, that pretty much rules out Inola, or anything in the east Tulsa area. Is this proposed site on the west side of the river? Didn't the city offer some land over there to Amazon for HQ2? There's rail access all over the place, which is probably the most important thing for a car manufacturer.


Something very strange about the picture with all the people.  No one is sweating.  That just ain't possible last Friday.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 05, 2020, 11:07:29 pm
The one thing this site doesn’t have currently is rail access, maybe that’s not that important?  Not sure if the Austin site has it or not.  I know I prefer this location to Inola.  East Tulsa could really use a shot in the arm but this would also be a major boost for BA and Catoosa/Verdigris.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 06, 2020, 11:37:34 am
The one thing this site doesn’t have currently is rail access, maybe that’s not that important?  Not sure if the Austin site has it or not.  I know I prefer this location to Inola.  East Tulsa could really use a shot in the arm but this would also be a major boost for BA and Catoosa/Verdigris.

It doesn't, the site they picked out in Austin doesn't either. I was wrong on that end, Tesla is always a bit out of the box so guess they aren't as concerned about rail access. Maybe they feel like once the Semi is in production they'll just do shipping that way instead of via rail? Who knows.

I think this site is owned by one of the Waltons - they own the land to the north of 412 as well and several 100 acres to the south too. I think at one point almost 2 decades ago they had looked into building a NASCAR stadium on that site but nothing materialized on that and it's just been ranch land since.

Even if Austin is picked this will be a net benefit for Tulsa going all out. We're not only out to make an impression on Tesla, but we have the nation's site selection industry's eyes on us and I think this could really be a game changer to getting more job expansions/relocations to Tulsa.

"Meanwhile, just being a finalist for Tesla’s factory has already given Tulsa and the rest of Oklahoma more credibility with other companies, Kouplen said. His office is currently working on at least 115 economic development opportunities across the state, with many of the companies giving the state a serious look as a direct result of Tesla’s interest, he said.”


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Weatherdemon on July 06, 2020, 02:33:39 pm
Had a buddy text me and say his boss heard on the news that Tulsa got it. Can't find confirmation though.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 06, 2020, 02:49:24 pm
Tesla delivers their cars by truck to cut down on time to the customer, and because they don't have the traditional dealer network and brick and mortar store with a few dozen cars on the lot. Shipping by rail, the rail car with your car on it may go from Fremont, to LA, to El Paso, Dallas, OKC and Tulsa depending on the routes and trains used and could take two to four weeks. If they have eight cars going to Oklahoma they can load in Fremont and be in OKC and Tulsa in about seven days. I asked a transport driver for Tesla, and a rep at a Tesla store.

Tesla produces ~7000 cars per week, Ford builds that many every two days.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 06, 2020, 02:58:07 pm
It doesn't, the site they picked out in Austin doesn't either. I was wrong on that end, Tesla is always a bit out of the box so guess they aren't as concerned about rail access. Maybe they feel like once the Semi is in production they'll just do shipping that way instead of via rail? Who knows.

I think this site is owned by one of the Waltons - they own the land to the north of 412 as well and several 100 acres to the south too. I think at one point almost 2 decades ago they had looked into building a NASCAR stadium on that site but nothing materialized on that and it's just been ranch land since.

Even if Austin is picked this will be a net benefit for Tulsa going all out. We're not only out to make an impression on Tesla, but we have the nation's site selection industry's eyes on us and I think this could really be a game changer to getting more job expansions/relocations to Tulsa.

"Meanwhile, just being a finalist for Tesla’s factory has already given Tulsa and the rest of Oklahoma more credibility with other companies, Kouplen said. His office is currently working on at least 115 economic development opportunities across the state, with many of the companies giving the state a serious look as a direct result of Tesla’s interest, he said.”

This would be a great spot for the semi to be built if we don't get the cybertruck factory.  

That's interesting about the Walton's.  I've wondered if there were ways we could increase ties to NW Arkansas specifically UofA along the 412 corridor.  When I've been over there they definitely seem more connected to Tulsa than they do Little Rock or the rest of Arkansas.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 06, 2020, 05:18:19 pm
Had a buddy text me and say his boss heard on the news that Tulsa got it. Can't find confirmation though.

If it was announced on the news it would be everywhere. Does your friend's boss have inside knowledge of the deal?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: TulsaBeMore on July 07, 2020, 02:10:13 am
This would be a great spot for the semi to be built if we don't get the cybertruck factory. 

That's interesting about the Walton's.  I've wondered if there were ways we could increase ties to NW Arkansas specifically UofA along the 412 corridor.  When I've been over there they definitely seem more connected to Tulsa than they do Little Rock or the rest of Arkansas.

By Walton, don't they mean Robson?  Sam's wife Helen was Helen Robson of Claremore. Daughter of the town's big banker.  Sam was no dummy.  You can fall in love with anybody --- banker's daughter just as good as any.  The Robsons built Forest Ridge, own tons of land that way and RCB Bank. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on July 07, 2020, 08:50:02 am
By Walton, don't they mean Robson?  Sam's wife Helen was Helen Robson of Claremore. Daughter of the town's big banker.  Sam was no dummy.  You can fall in love with anybody --- banker's daughter just as good as any.  The Robsons built Forest Ridge, own tons of land that way and RCB Bank.  

The land in question is owned by  I244-ADMIRAL LAND, L.L.C.  The registered agent is Lloyd Robson out of Broken Arrow.

Scratch that.  I looked at the wrong place.  The correct owner is Fair Oaks Ranch, LLC.  Owned by John Robson, Catoosa.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 07, 2020, 11:10:17 am
Anyone know more about the property tax incentives for this site?  It looks like it is mostly in the Catoosa school district possibly partially within BA

(https://i0.wp.com/okgrassroots.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Tulsa-Area-School-Districts.png?fit=673%2C835&ssl=1&w=640)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on July 07, 2020, 01:14:37 pm
Anyone know more about the property tax incentives for this site?  It looks like it is mostly in the Catoosa school district possibly partially within BA

On Google Maps, it shows as inside Tulsa city limits.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 07, 2020, 04:41:18 pm
On Google Maps, it shows as inside Tulsa city limits.

I saw that but it doesn't appear to be within the TPS district boundary.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: rebound on July 08, 2020, 08:22:49 am
I saw that but it doesn't appear to be within the TPS district boundary.

Ah, yeah,  agreed.  Wasn't looking at that.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: nxb33 on July 08, 2020, 09:16:07 am
Wagoner county, Catoosa public schools, city of Tulsa


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on July 09, 2020, 08:58:30 am
I am honestly blown away that Elon visited and that they were able to put all this together. This is a tremendous effort and all involved should be proud of it.

Earlier I felt like it was just posturing and getting our name out there, but now I feel like we really have a shot, and even if we don't get the main factory there's a really strong chance we get something else. At this point I will be surprised if Tesla doesn't build anything here.

Tulsa has been in the limelight a lot lately for good and bad reasons, so it's very helpful to have something going on to elevate our status beyond trump visits and addressing our massacre history.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on July 09, 2020, 10:20:31 am
Yikes!  This could throw a wrench in the works.

Supreme Court hands Oklahoma a loss on tribal lands fighthttps://www.tulsaworld.com/news/supreme-court-hands-oklahoma-a-loss-on-tribal-lands-fight/article_4c33fbe8-c1ed-11ea-8c16-2705dc65414a.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/supreme-court-hands-oklahoma-a-loss-on-tribal-lands-fight/article_4c33fbe8-c1ed-11ea-8c16-2705dc65414a.html)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 09, 2020, 11:16:41 am
Yikes!  This could throw a wrench in the works.

Supreme Court hands Oklahoma a loss on tribal lands fighthttps://www.tulsaworld.com/news/supreme-court-hands-oklahoma-a-loss-on-tribal-lands-fight/article_4c33fbe8-c1ed-11ea-8c16-2705dc65414a.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/supreme-court-hands-oklahoma-a-loss-on-tribal-lands-fight/article_4c33fbe8-c1ed-11ea-8c16-2705dc65414a.html)

Besides the fact that this ruling means Native Americans cannot be tried for crimes committed on Native land by the state this shouldn't change anything as far as land ownership, unless I'm missing something.  Most people already understand that living in eastern Oklahoma means also living in sovereign Indian nations but still governed by city/state/federal laws.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 09, 2020, 12:29:07 pm
I saw that but it doesn't appear to be within the TPS district boundary.

I don't know if they will require much of a property tax break here. Texas it is assessed near 100% market value and tax rates are 2.5-3.0%. Say the plant is appraised by the county near $750 million, 75% or so of cost. Telsa's yearly property tax bill would likely be around $25,000,000, or more. In Oklahoma, the full property tax would be around $1.5 to 2 million a year if the county here appraised it at $750 million.

That's why the property tax abatement they're seeking can make or break the deal for Austin. Texas is in the top 10 most expensive states for property taxes.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Vision 2025 on July 09, 2020, 01:18:40 pm
Don't forget the State Tax Exemption for manufacturing facilities, I seem to remember its 5 years from completion.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: BKDotCom on July 09, 2020, 02:37:50 pm
I don't know if they will require much of a property tax break here. Texas it is assessed near 100% market value and tax rates are 2.5-3.0%. Say the plant is appraised by the county near $750 million, 75% or so of cost. Telsa's yearly property tax bill would likely be around $25,000,000, or more. In Oklahoma, the full property tax would be around $1.5 to 2 million a year if the county here appraised it at $750 million.

That's why the property tax abatement they're seeking can make or break the deal for Austin. Texas is in the top 10 most expensive states for property taxes.

What if Tesla leases the land from the Creeks?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 09, 2020, 02:54:23 pm
What if Tesla leases the land from the Creeks?

Land and improvements are appraised separately in property tax assessments. Regardless if it's a land lease for $1, the factory building and equipment would still be taxed which is the expensive part. Land owner would then be responsible for the land assessment taxes.  Tesla being the owner of the factory (the improvements) since they don't lease their facilities would be responsible for that portion of taxes.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on July 09, 2020, 03:11:56 pm
Land and improvements are appraised separately in property tax assessments. Regardless if it's a land lease for $1, the factory building and equipment would still be taxed which is the expensive part. Land owner would then be responsible for the land assessment taxes.  Tesla being the owner of the factory (the improvements) since they don't lease their facilities would be responsible for that portion of taxes.  

Not on Creek owned land. Certainly not on Creek Nation owned land.

We are in uncharted waters.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 09, 2020, 03:35:06 pm
Not on Creek owned land. Certainly not on Creek Nation owned land.

We are in uncharted waters.

Well that comes down to who owns the improvements. You can make the argument of well who has taxing authority now, etc. if that's the question.

If the Creek Nation built the improvements and leased to Tesla, there would likely be no property taxes. If the Creek Nation leased the land, and Tesla built the improvements and own the building (but not the land). Tesla would pay property taxes (to City, Schools, Creeks, whoever). If that's the question of well does the Creek Nation now own every single piece of real property on the designated tribal reservation lands.

From my understanding of the ruling today is this doesn't effect land ownership. This has more to do with who has the authority of policing powers like criminal courts and would effect things like taxing powers, zoning, etc. (which is a completely separate issue to ownership)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: kvanover on July 09, 2020, 04:09:15 pm
From Reuters:

Tribe members who live within the boundaries are now set to become exempt from certain state obligations such as paying state taxes, while certain Native Americans found guilty in state courts may be able to challenge their convictions on jurisdictional grounds. The tribe also may obtain more power to regulate alcohol sales and expand casino gambling.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on July 09, 2020, 04:52:45 pm
Well that comes down to who owns the improvements. You can make the argument of well who has taxing authority now, etc. if that's the question.

If the Creek Nation built the improvements and leased to Tesla, there would likely be no property taxes. If the Creek Nation leased the land, and Tesla built the improvements and own the building (but not the land). Tesla would pay property taxes (to City, Schools, Creeks, whoever). If that's the question of well does the Creek Nation now own every single piece of real property on the designated tribal reservation lands.

From my understanding of the ruling today is this doesn't effect land ownership. This has more to do with who has the authority of policing powers like criminal courts and would effect things like taxing powers, zoning, etc. (which is a completely separate issue to ownership)

If it's on Creek Nation land in the reservation, the state has no jurisdiction or right to tax. The Creek Nation can, but not the state.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 09, 2020, 06:18:14 pm
If it's on Creek Nation land in the reservation, the state has no jurisdiction or right to tax. The Creek Nation can, but not the state.

We're probably saying the same thing, just different ways. If Tesla is the owner of the building or the land or both - they will pay taxes to someone. If it's to the city, county, schools then we know the tax rate and it's significantly lower than Texas or to the Creek Nation if they decide they want to exercise that policing power. I guess the Creek Nation could decide the property tax rate should be the same as Texas (highly doubtful). I can't imagine the tribes will want to get involved with a lawsuits over that. They've already released statements saying they want to work with the state to resolve issues.

Really, what I foresee happening is they probably impose more sovereign rights for their citizens and shelter them from the criminal system (which is what brought this case up in the first place). They might decide their citizens have the right to not pay property taxes, etc. But largely leave everyone else to what is the status quo. It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state. So we'll probably see expanded gaming in the state.

To me it seems the fear mongering from the republicans about this is far over blown. You're essentially saying that the Creek Nation will now screw everyone who now resides within their reservation on their land (Kind of like we did to them previously right? That's beside the point though). It would not benefit them financially to do so or their tribal citizens to see the state thrown into property right chaos and the resulting economic chaos. The tribes have been better partners to many cities than our own state legislature on many occasions. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on July 09, 2020, 06:52:46 pm
It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state.

I see a lot more (previously) illegal TV-on-a-stick billboards in our future.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on July 09, 2020, 07:31:40 pm
We're probably saying the same thing, just different ways. If Tesla is the owner of the building or the land or both - they will pay taxes to someone. If it's to the city, county, schools then we know the tax rate and it's significantly lower than Texas or to the Creek Nation if they decide they want to exercise that policing power. I guess the Creek Nation could decide the property tax rate should be the same as Texas (highly doubtful). I can't imagine the tribes will want to get involved with a lawsuits over that. They've already released statements saying they want to work with the state to resolve issues.

Really, what I foresee happening is they probably impose more sovereign rights for their citizens and shelter them from the criminal system (which is what brought this case up in the first place). They might decide their citizens have the right to not pay property taxes, etc. But largely leave everyone else to what is the status quo. It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state. So we'll probably see expanded gaming in the state.

To me it seems the fear mongering from the republicans about this is far over blown. You're essentially saying that the Creek Nation will now screw everyone who now resides within their reservation on their land (Kind of like we did to them previously right? That's beside the point though). It would not benefit them financially to do so or their tribal citizens to see the state thrown into property right chaos and the resulting economic chaos. The tribes have been better partners to many cities than our own state legislature on many occasions.  

I’m not saying the tribe is trying to screw anyone. My wife and kids are Creek, it’s possible my house and wife’s income will not be subject to state taxes. I’m not holding my breath on that. I’m getting my info largely from my daughter, who did a college thesis on a related topic and is a policy analyst with a Native rights group in DC.

The tribe certainly has zero intention of shielding anyone from prosecution. If anything, defendants that end up in tribal or federal court are likely to find the courts MORE harsh, not less. THAT is a problem that will need to be addressed. The Creek Nation did not bring this suit, but did support the restoration of reservation status. They have no interest in this man going free.

I would expect no changes for most people. This should not change the need for gambling compacts, the compacts grant exclusivity for gambling in the state to the tribes in exchange for payments to the state. They are NOT taxes, which confuses most people. The state cannot tax a tribe.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea to GIVE the land to the Creek Nation with the intention of the Nation allowing Tesla to build with zero or very low taxes as an incentive, likely along with generous federal benefits for economic development on tribal lands.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 09, 2020, 09:13:20 pm
I’m not saying the tribe is trying to screw anyone. My wife and kids are Creek, it’s possible my house and wife’s income will not be subject to state taxes. I’m not holding my breath on that. I’m getting my info largely from my daughter, who did a college thesis on a related topic and is a policy analyst with a Native rights group in DC.

The tribe certainly has zero intention of shielding anyone from prosecution. If anything, defendants that end up in tribal or federal court are likely to find the courts MORE harsh, not less. THAT is a problem that will need to be addressed. The Creek Nation did not bring this suit, but did support the restoration of reservation status. They have no interest in this man going free.

I would expect no changes for most people. This should not change the need for gambling compacts, the compacts grant exclusivity for gambling in the state to the tribes in exchange for payments to the state. They are NOT taxes, which confuses most people. The state cannot tax a tribe.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea to GIVE the land to the Creek Nation with the intention of the Nation allowing Tesla to build with zero or very low taxes as an incentive, likely along with generous federal benefits for economic development on tribal lands.  


Didn't necessarily mean you were saying the tribe would be out to screw people. Sorry if it came off that way. Meant there's a lot of republican's out there saying that today. Ted Cruz, etc. bemoaning about how the court just gave away half of Oklahoma. Seems like some of the people on here are misinterpreting what this case was really about. It's about policing powers/jurisdiction... has nothing to do with land ownership rights. All land in the Creek Nation will not revert to their ownership today. People saying this are just trying to create fear mongering among people against the tribe. Who in general have been better partners to people in this state than our elected leadership in OKC.

This won't impact Tesla or anyone else in the Tulsa area trying to build or buy anything.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 09, 2020, 09:38:01 pm
July 7th is for the County incentives.

July 10th is for ISD property tax incentives (school district which account for usually about 50% or more of people's tax bill in most areas of Texas). This is really the critical one, because  they tax personal property for businesses. So, for Tesla, the tax bill would be astronomical given the specialized equipment needed in the plant. Telsa officials said in the last meeting for the ISD that if this isn't approved they will not build the plant there. The other county incentives are probably just icing on the cake type thing.

Del Valle ISD approved the property tax incentives today.   https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/development/2020/07/09/del-valle-isd-approves-tesla-incentives-paving-way-for-possible-travis-county-agreement/ (https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/development/2020/07/09/del-valle-isd-approves-tesla-incentives-paving-way-for-possible-travis-county-agreement/)

Travis County should vote next week after punting this week, maybe waiting for the ISD approval.  Not sure what approvals are needed or are already in place for Tulsa, anyone know?  Sounds like we are getting close to a final decision.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: AdamsHall on July 10, 2020, 09:52:49 am
Didn't necessarily mean you were saying the tribe would be out to screw people. Sorry if it came off that way. Meant there's a lot of republican's out there saying that today. Ted Cruz, etc. bemoaning about how the court just gave away half of Oklahoma. Seems like some of the people on here are misinterpreting what this case was really about. It's about policing powers/jurisdiction... has nothing to do with land ownership rights. All land in the Creek Nation will not revert to their ownership today. People saying this are just trying to create fear mongering among people against the tribe. Who in general have been better partners to people in this state than our elected leadership in OKC.

This won't impact Tesla or anyone else in the Tulsa area trying to build or buy anything.

I have not followed what the Republicans are saying, but this very definitely has the potential to impact, if not significantly impact, more than police powers.  The immediate problem is the uncertainty that is now present.  Ideally, we get congressional action or enter a compact arrangement soon to clarify jurisdiction.  See the following note from Chief Justice Roberts:

  “On top of that, the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma,” Roberts wrote. “The decision today creates significant uncertainty for the State’s continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs, ranging from zoning and taxation to family and environmental law.”


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 10, 2020, 11:03:23 am
I have not followed what the Republicans are saying, but this very definitely has the potential to impact, if not significantly impact, more than police powers.  The immediate problem is the uncertainty that is now present.  Ideally, we get congressional action or enter a compact arrangement soon to clarify jurisdiction.  See the following note from Chief Justice Roberts:

  “On top of that, the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma,” Roberts wrote. “The decision today creates significant uncertainty for the State’s continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs, ranging from zoning and taxation to family and environmental law.”


Zoning, taxation, etc. are all policing powers. So it does create a massive question of who has authority over that in large portions of Oklahoma now. Is it the tribes or is it the city governments? The court decision was directly related to Federal law, but the implications of that spread to more than just that issue.

It does however not make any determinations into land ownership. That is what a lot of people seem to be confusing (including Ted Cruz and others). This is about who has authority over law and jurisdiction issues, not land ownership. If you owned your house yesterday morning, the Creek Nation (etc.) does not now own your house today.

A few people here seemed to be saying well now Tesla would have to buy the land from the Creeks... no, that's not what this case was about. The person who owns the site Tesla is looking at can still sell them the site. Now, down the road... Tesla might have to pay more taxes on the site if the Creek Nation wanted to impose additional property taxes. Given this ruling, they very well could do so. I don't foresee them doing something like this though, I can only imagine how many lawsuits this would create and do the tribes really want to go down lengthy court battles over something like that? Likely not. There will probably be some sort of agreements signed between the tribes and the cities/state that sets out guidelines of who has jurisdiction and authority in things like local, state, federal law, taxation, zoning, etc. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: AdamsHall on July 10, 2020, 01:05:33 pm
Zoning, taxation, etc. are all policing powers. So it does create a massive question of who has authority over that in large portions of Oklahoma now. Is it the tribes or is it the city governments? The court decision was directly related to Federal law, but the implications of that spread to more than just that issue.

It does however not make any determinations into land ownership. That is what a lot of people seem to be confusing (including Ted Cruz and others). This is about who has authority over law and jurisdiction issues, not land ownership. If you owned your house yesterday morning, the Creek Nation (etc.) does not now own your house today.

A few people here seemed to be saying well now Tesla would have to buy the land from the Creeks... no, that's not what this case was about. The person who owns the site Tesla is looking at can still sell them the site. Now, down the road... Tesla might have to pay more taxes on the site if the Creek Nation wanted to impose additional property taxes. Given this ruling, they very well could do so. I don't foresee them doing something like this though, I can only imagine how many lawsuits this would create and do the tribes really want to go down lengthy court battles over something like that? Likely not. There will probably be some sort of agreements signed between the tribes and the cities/state that sets out guidelines of who has jurisdiction and authority in things like local, state, federal law, taxation, zoning, etc. 

Agreed on the land ownership component.  I believe an attempt by the tribe to tax on lands within the reservation would be the surest way to get this resolved via lawsuit.  So likewise, I doubt that is attempted.  As previously noted, the groups need to find common ground in an agreement.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on July 10, 2020, 02:57:11 pm
Besides the fact that this ruling means Native Americans cannot be tried for crimes committed on Native land by the state this shouldn't change anything as far as land ownership, unless I'm missing something.  Most people already understand that living in eastern Oklahoma means also living in sovereign Indian nations but still governed by city/state/federal laws.

Of course, I didn't say anything about land ownership being in question.  But as LandArchPoke said, this creates "a massive question of who has authority. . . "   That is the "wrench" to which I was referring.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on July 10, 2020, 04:08:16 pm
I have not followed what the Republicans are saying...


You're not missing anything.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on July 11, 2020, 07:58:34 am


Travis County Continues to Mull Economic Incentives for $1 Billion Tesla Gigafactory

Quote
The $1 billion Tesla plant is not a done deal for Austin. Tesla’s Founder Elon Musk visited Tulsa, Oklahoma over the fourth of July weekend to look at sites there for the proposed Gigafactory. Oklahoma is making a huge push to recruit Tesla.

http://siliconhillsnews.com/2020/07/07/travis-county-continues-to-mull-economic-incentives-for-1-billion-tesla-gigafactory/ (http://siliconhillsnews.com/2020/07/07/travis-county-continues-to-mull-economic-incentives-for-1-billion-tesla-gigafactory/)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 13, 2020, 07:56:21 pm
You're not missing anything.


Yeah he is.  If you don't know what the forces of evil are doing, you cannot effectively counter them.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 13, 2020, 07:59:15 pm


It does however not make any determinations into land ownership. That is what a lot of people seem to be confusing (including Ted Cruz and others). This is about who has authority over law and jurisdiction issues, not land ownership. If you owned your house yesterday morning, the Creek Nation (etc.) does not now own your house today.



Maybe some are confused, but Ted Cruz is NOT one of them!   He understands perfectly what he is doing/saying, and is continuing in the tradition of obfuscation, distortion, and lies.  He is one of those who is intentionally trying to cause confusion.

Plus, I bet he is a John Wayne fan, too!



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 14, 2020, 05:30:06 pm
Travis County and Del Valle ISD passed the incentives.  Now it’s up to Tesla to make their decision.  I think they end up choosing Austin for this plant but that Tulsa is now in a good position to get a future plant.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 15, 2020, 04:00:52 pm
Rumor is the official announcement will be made during their shareholder meeting/battery day, which is in September. I'd imagine the decision will be made prior to that and city/state officials will be notified much sooner, but the public announcement will be around that time if Elon manages to not randomly tweet it.

Other news, Mazzio's offers up 7,000 + free pizzas - 1 to every employee at Tesla in Tulsa.

Interesting story from KJRH: https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/gov-stitt-continues-productive-talks-with-tesla

"The official told 2 Works for You the call focused on quality of life in Tulsa as opposed to specifics of Oklahoma’s site or incentive proposals.

During the call, the official said a group of entrepreneurs who moved to Tulsa through Tulsa Remote spoke about their experiences moving to the city from other parts of the country, including Austin.

Stitt concluded the meeting by sharing his personal story of starting his company in Tulsa with $1,000 and a computer and his vision of making Oklahoma a Top Ten state and raising its profile on a national level, the official said.

Officials said they believe the call was very productive and they plan to continue the conversation."

I've also heard that they have been able to collect over 2,000 resumes from engineers who have said they would move to Tulsa to work for Tesla and that's also been presented to senior Tesla officials. There's also a fair amount of internet blog press turning more favorable to Tulsa. So all in all this seems like a big win for Tulsa even if we don't get the plant. We needed something like that to open up some eyes in the site selection community to so how open Tulsa is to new development/job expansion. We've still got a lot of perception issues to battle in the quality of life arena though.

And... finally, Stitt tests positive for COVID. Which means he got it sometime around when Elon visited Tulsa. Wouldn't that be a way for Elon to remember Oklahoma if the governor gave him COVID.  :o


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 16, 2020, 09:21:58 am
Rumor is the official announcement will be made during their shareholder meeting/battery day, which is in September. I'd imagine the decision will be made prior to that and city/state officials will be notified much sooner, but the public announcement will be around that time if Elon manages to not randomly tweet it.

Interesting story from KJRH: https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/gov-stitt-continues-productive-talks-with-tesla

"The official told 2 Works for You the call focused on quality of life in Tulsa as opposed to specifics of Oklahoma’s site or incentive proposals.

During the call, the official said a group of entrepreneurs who moved to Tulsa through Tulsa Remote spoke about their experiences moving to the city from other parts of the country, including Austin.

Stitt concluded the meeting by sharing his personal story of starting his company in Tulsa with $1,000 and a computer and his vision of making Oklahoma a Top Ten state and raising its profile on a national level, the official said.

Officials said they believe the call was very productive and they plan to continue the conversation."

I've also heard that they have been able to collect over 2,000 resumes from engineers who have said they would move to Tulsa to work for Tesla and that's also been presented to senior Tesla officials. There's also a fair amount of internet blog press turning more favorable to Tulsa. So all in all this seems like a big win for Tulsa even if we don't get the plant. We needed something like that to open up some eyes in the site selection community to so how open Tulsa is to new development/job expansion. We've still got a lot of perception issues to battle in the quality of life arena though.

And... finally, Stitt tests positive for COVID. Which means he got it sometime around when Elon visited Tulsa. Wouldn't that be a way for Elon to remember Oklahoma if the governor gave him COVID.  :o


Well they seem to have the information they need from both Tulsa and Austin. Incentives are approved and closing arguments have been made. I would think they'd want to have a decision by the end of this month or next.

Also, 2000 resumes from engineers is an impressive amount and hopefully alleviates some concern about workforce in Tulsa.

Regardless, if Tulsa isn't chosen for this factory I can't imagine us not being on the top of the list for the next one they build. Then when you consider the publicity and the companies taking a look at the state because of it, this whole process is a win win for the city and state.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 16, 2020, 09:40:43 am
Well they seem to have the information they need from both Tulsa and Austin. Incentives are approved and closing arguments have been made. I would think they'd want to have a decision by the end of this month or next.

Also, 2000 resumes from engineers is an impressive amount and hopefully alleviates some concern about workforce in Tulsa.

Regardless, if Tulsa isn't chosen for this factory I can't imagine us not being on the top of the list for the next one they build. Then when you consider the publicity and the companies taking a look at the state because of it, this whole process is a win win for the city and state.

I honestly think the semi plant would be even better, even if it doesn't happen for a few years.  That is the game changer for how we move goods around in the U.S. (and world).  But landing the truck/SUV plant would be great as well.   :)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 16, 2020, 11:51:41 am
I honestly think the semi plant would be even better, even if it doesn't happen for a few years.  That is the game changer for how we move goods around in the U.S. (and world).  But landing the truck/SUV plant would be great as well.   :)

I agree, I'm more excited for the Semi than I am the Cybertruck. The game changer will be if Tesla can get the battery distance on the semi right. If they can get the battery to last for 8 hours of driving at least, then the drivers can charge the truck while they sleep. If they can do that I can't see any reason why anyone would want gas powered semi's in the logistics sector.

Amazon has already order 100,000 trucks from Rivian (electric car firm that has Ford, Amazon and others as investors). Those would be the smaller delivery local delivery trucks. Amazon would likely switch to all electric Semi's too and if they do it, UPS, FedEx, etc. will all follow. There's a huge market for the semi and would really go a long way to reducing smog/emissions in the big cities.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: AdamsHall on July 16, 2020, 04:14:55 pm
I agree, I'm more excited for the Semi than I am the Cybertruck. The game changer will be if Tesla can get the battery distance on the semi right. If they can get the battery to last for 8 hours of driving at least, then the drivers can charge the truck while they sleep. If they can do that I can't see any reason why anyone would want gas powered semi's in the logistics sector.

Amazon has already order 100,000 trucks from Rivian (electric car firm that has Ford, Amazon and others as investors). Those would be the smaller delivery local delivery trucks. Amazon would likely switch to all electric Semi's too and if they do it, UPS, FedEx, etc. will all follow. There's a huge market for the semi and would really go a long way to reducing smog/emissions in the big cities.

Tesla continues to increase the size of their factories, so there may be some advantage in getting the next one.  That said, I would prefer not to wait.  The semi (particularly with the automation options being discussed) has the potential to transform logistics and certainly the associated emissions.  It is going to be very interesting to watch the transition unfold.  Rivian is also very well funded and appears poised to make a very large splash with the Amazon vehicles and their truck and SUV offering.  In addition to the Amazon and Ford investments, Rivian received another 2.5 billion in funding last week and have yet to produce a single vehicle.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on July 18, 2020, 05:56:27 pm
Tesla has got to be impressed with Tulsa.  Truly feel that Tesla will have more planned for Tulsa's future since Mr. Elon Musk continues his visits.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on July 22, 2020, 03:51:49 pm
Tesla picked Austin


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 22, 2020, 03:58:19 pm
Not a huge shock, we were the dark horse.  Now need to go 100% after the semi factory which would be a similar size to the Gigafactory.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on July 22, 2020, 04:07:35 pm
Onward and upward, let's keep the momentum going and see what we can go for next! I didn't expect us to win out, but I'm ecstatic we seemingly held in there the way we did.

As has been said before, this process got us noticed by companies outside of Tesla as well. We are now on the radar at least in ways we weren't before. The experience and publicity gained from this could be very useful.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on July 22, 2020, 06:36:53 pm
Not a huge shock, we were the dark horse.  Now need to go 100% after the semi factory which would be a similar size to the Gigafactory.



“We're gonna have a boardwalk where there will be a hiking, biking trail,” he continued. “It's gonna basically be an ecological paradise — birds in the trees, butterflies, fish in the stream. And it'll be open to the public as well.”

https://www.engadget.com/teslas-q-2-earnings-could-qualify-the-company-for-an-sp-500-listing-213918329.html


Austin wins Tesla's new factory, Musk thanks Tulsa
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/austin-wins-teslas-new-factory-musk-thanks-tulsa


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on July 23, 2020, 03:16:19 pm
We gave it a good shot, and I think Tulsa came across well on the national stage. Our time will come.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 23, 2020, 08:07:34 pm
We gave it a good shot, and I think Tulsa came across well on the national stage. Our time will come.


Mostly.

Except for that whole Trump rally thing and big jump in pandemic infections....


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on July 23, 2020, 10:08:54 pm

Mostly.

Except for that whole Trump rally thing and big jump in pandemic infections....


Are you kidding me? the Trump rally in Tulsa with only 6k people was the most hilarious failure Trump has endured since he was president. One MILLION people will be there. You can just hear. Dr Evil.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 24, 2020, 10:31:42 am
I would think Tulsa and Nashville would the at the top of the list for future expansion after the G5 plant is built in Texas.  Just like Austin was passed over for Reno for G1 but was a finalist that helped them eventually land a factory.

Tesla Factory: Fremont, CA
G1: Reno, NV
G2: Buffalo, NY
G3: Shanghai, China
G4: Berlin, Germany
G5: Austin, TX
G6: ??

Quote
Musk disclosed the highly anticipated decision at the start of the company's earnings call while thanking officials in Tulsa, Oklahoma who also aggressively courted the automaker. Musk said he was "super impressed" by the economic development team and Governor Stitt and will consider Tulsa for other opportunities "down the road."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/austin-wins-teslas-new-factory-musk-thanks-tulsa (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/austin-wins-teslas-new-factory-musk-thanks-tulsa)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 24, 2020, 06:38:24 pm
I would think Tulsa and Nashville would the at the top of the list for future expansion after the G5 plant is built in Texas.  Just like Austin was passed over for Reno for G1 but was a finalist that helped them eventually land a factory.

Tesla Factory: Fremont, CA
G1: Reno, NV
G2: Buffalo, NY
G3: Shanghai, China
G4: Berlin, Germany
G5: Austin, TX
G6: ??

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/austin-wins-teslas-new-factory-musk-thanks-tulsa (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/austin-wins-teslas-new-factory-musk-thanks-tulsa)


Probably Nashville area first - they have several other automakers nearby and can poach some people already trained.  Then us, maybe.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 25, 2020, 12:35:01 am

Probably Nashville area first - they have several other automakers nearby and can poach some people already trained.  Then us, maybe.



They will likely need an additional battery plant in the central U.S.  The Southeast as a whole is better suited for auto manufacturing with the existing companies there (Nissan and VW in Tennessee, Mercedes in Alabama, BMW in South Carolina, etc). But none of those states were finalists except Tennessee until the search was narrowed to Tulsa and Austin.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Laramie on July 25, 2020, 11:56:19 am
Disappointed in Tesla's decision to select Austin; however not surprised. 

Reminds me of OKC pitch to land a United Airlines maintenance facility years ago when Indianapolis was selected.  We had a much better incentive package put together by then Mayor Ron Norick.  Ron was later told that Indianapolis had a better standard of living and quality of life as their being selected.   They had NFL, NBA franchises and the infamous Indianapolis '500 at the motor speedway in their city and a host of arts and cultural related venues.   That led to the birth of OKC Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) initiatives to improve on the standing of living and quality of life issues.   The Bricktown Ballpark, Chesapeake Energy Arena, Bricktown Canal, North Canadian Riverfront Development and upgrades to aging city structures like Civic Center Music Hall needing attention.

Tulsa has a lot of positives that they can take away from the Tesla's decision.  Continue with that relentless pursuit, the same attitude that landed the American Airline Maintenance facility to Tulsa and other important drivers of your local economy.  Most importantly is to continue to take care of the existing businesses you have in your economy.  Focus on some smaller support and satellite businesses and the higher hanging fruit will eventually come.

Oklahoma Quality Jobs Program is still in place; it rewards job expansion and creation; therefore the firms and businesses you have now are your greatest assets.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 26, 2020, 06:13:04 pm
They will likely need an additional battery plant in the central U.S.  The Southeast as a whole is better suited for auto manufacturing with the existing companies there (Nissan and VW in Tennessee, Mercedes in Alabama, BMW in South Carolina, etc). But none of those states were finalists except Tennessee until the search was narrowed to Tulsa and Austin.


Great....(sarcastically)....just what we need - another battery plant here.  As if Picher wasn't bad enough... What new part of the state can we render uninhabitable next?  Between lead and big oil, just try to get a decent water well in NE Oklahoma!






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 30, 2020, 08:46:27 pm
I've seen a lot of stories like these lately... let's hope this turns into some good news over the next year and we can build on some momentum.

From Costar News:

Promise of Tulsa, Oklahoma, Real Estate Emerges in Tesla Factory Site Search
Low Cost of Living Could Be a Lure for Companies


Three reasons why Tulsa stands out involve industrial real estate, a property type that has surged in demand as more consumers shop online and create a need for added logistics centers and warehouses. While Tesla ultimately decided to build a plant in Austin, Texas, it was lured by forces that led industrial real estate in Tulsa, even with 1 million fewer people in the surrounding region than Austin, to grow to 108 million square feet of space to surpass Austin's 107 million square feet, according to CoStar data.

That industrial real estate is less than half the price in Tulsa than it is in Austin, and Tulsa is outpacing its Texas rival for new construction of that property type. Real estate professionals say the presence of far more industrial real estate per capita, and at a far lower cost, in Tulsa than in high-profile Austin shows Oklahoma's second-largest city is primed for manufacturing growth. It also helps explain why Tulsa came down to the wire after Tesla initially looked at eight centrally located U.S. states to house its $1 billion, 4 million- to 5 million-square-foot manufacturing plant, a site that's expected eventually to create 5,000 jobs to make the Model Y and Cybertruck.

Tesla’s interest in Tulsa confirms the city's desirability for large-scale advanced manufacturing projects and, even though historically dominated by the oil and gas industry, an ability to diversify its industries, said Chris Schwinden, a senior vice president who leads the industrial business for the Dallas-based Site Selection Group advisory firm.

“If you look at its location in the south central United States, it makes a lot of sense that big companies want to be there,” said Schwinden, who's familiar with the region but isn't involved in Tulsa deals. “Tulsa is a really strong manufacturing market with robust training programs and a strong pipeline of labor. Tulsa is a Goldilocks-type of market that's big enough to satisfy hiring needs and not too big in which a company might have to deal with traffic congestion and other issues that pop up in larger cities.”

"Tulsa has flown under the radar for quite some time and Tesla's interest has brought the city to the forefront in terms of growth and quality of life," Hendershot said in an interview.

Developers in Tulsa don't tend to build large amounts of speculative industrial buildings as they do across the Red River in Texas. Instead, Oklahoma developers tend to wait to have a tenant in tow before beginning construction, he said.

That patience paid off with Tulsa landing a four-story, 2.56 million-square-foot Amazon e-commerce hub near the Muscogee Creek Nation that Hendershot said was "the crowning jewel of the decade for Tulsa," with a lot of land to do more deals. For real estate investors, Tulsa, which Hendershot says is like Austin a decade ago, can be seen as a bargain compared to the capital city of Texas, which ranked No. 1 in the nation for commercial real estate prospects and demand this year, according to the Urban Land Institute's annual survey.

Tulsa is a "really big small town" with growth potential because of what he calls business-friendly atmosphere and economic development help from the surrounding tribes in Oklahoma, said Schwinden.

"The tribal participation in economic development in Tulsa and, more broadly in Oklahoma, can be a big advantage for companies," Schwinden said in an interview. "It's a little bit of the secret sauce as it relates to economic development in Oklahoma being positioned to win big deals."

Native American tribes helped bring some big names to Oklahoma with the Cherokee Nation and the Muscogee Creek Nation being part of a larger coalition in helping e-commerce giant Amazon expand its presence in Tulsa. Years ago, the Cherokee Nation brought a half million dollars of economic incentives to a deal to bring a 1.2 million-square-foot distribution center for Macy's to Tulsa.

For potential employers, Schwinden said Tulsa could be a "surprisingly cool" choice with an arts and museum and culinary scene. City leaders created the Tulsa Remote program in 2018 to lure diverse young professionals with remote jobs by giving them up to $10,000 and office space in coworking locations. The program is funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which recently donated $50 million to develop workforce development programs in Tulsa targeting jobs in energy technology, virtual health, drones, cybertechnology and data analytics.

As part of the $50 million investment, the Holberton School, a coding academy in San Francisco, is expected to open its third U.S. campus in Tulsa in early 2021. Billionaire George Kaiser made his money in oil and gas and banking and he opened The Gathering Place, a 66-acre park in Tulsa that's the largest public park in the country built with private funds, in 2018.

Several high-profile tech companies are planning a permanent work-from-home setup because of the pandemic and Tulsa might be a draw for workers and employers looking to exit big city life and rents, Schwinden said. For investors, this could be a good time to prepare for what is expected to be a bigger future for the city.

"There's an opportunity for Tulsa to better prepare with the help of developers, investors and especially the local community, which can play a big role in these industrial parks," Schwinden added.

Social media giant Facebook plans to hire remote employees in areas such as Dallas, Denver and Atlanta and pay them salaries based on their location, a move that could save Facebook a substantial amount considering the average annual tech salary in its hometown in Silicon Valley is $136,060, the highest in the nation, according to CBRE.

Growth Potential

Tulsa ranked as one of the 25 smaller markets to watch this year for growth potential for fostering tech talent development, according to CBRE's Scoring Tech Talent report. Tulsa had 13,040 tech workers in 2019, up 34% over the past year, with an average salary of $77,701, according to CBRE. Austin, meanwhile, ranked No. 6 on the report out of large markets and had 76,270 tech jobs in 2019, up 16.7% since 2014, paying an average annual salary of $95,416, according to CBRE.

Still, Tulsa has a high concentration of energy companies and is expected to be hurt by low oil prices. Energy companies have been hesitant to add jobs back, and consolidation and closings are disrupting Tulsa's office sector, according to a CoStar market analytics report.

And Austin's commercial real estate growth in the past decade has an edge over Tulsa in terms of two high-profile cultural factors: The Austin music scene is so strong it fostered the television program and festival Austin City Limits, which gave that city a national profile. Austin also is home to the well-known University of Texas at Austin, which provides so much trained technology workers that global companies like Google, Facebook and Apple have opened offices in the city. Those names often result in smaller tech companies popping up in the same area.

Even so, Tesla's Musk said on an earnings call last week when it posted its fourth consecutive quarter of positive profits that the Fortune 500 company will consider Tulsa for future expansions. That "bodes well for the future" of the city, said Bill Murphy, who oversaw economic development for the Tulsa Regional Chamber during the Tesla search. He now holds a deputy secretary role with the Kansas Department of Commerce.

"This reflects the community at large really put forward a positive image of the state and the community and we were able to compete with a world class city like Austin," Murphy said in an interview. "To have Elon Musk mention your city in an earnings call is every economic developer's dream."

As far as proceeding on any immediate large-scale development, the Tulsa area has three sites ready to go. MidAmerica Industrial Park is a business area involved in large industrial deals with tenant companies such as DuPont and Google, officials said.

Other sites being heavily marketed by Tulsa leaders include the Peoria Mohawk Business Park, an industrial area developed by the George Kaiser Family Foundation and the city of Tulsa in a partnership to drive business to north Tulsa, and the Claremore Industrial Park in Claremore, Oklahoma. Other sites near Tulsa, including in Broken Arrow and Muskogee, are also development possibilities.

Justin McLaughlin, executive vice president and chief operating officer for the Tulsa Regional Chamber, said finding large industrial development areas across the country can be difficult, but the Tulsa region has several "shovel ready" sites ready to go.

"You don't get looked at for these large projects unless you have the sites," said McLaughlin, who also is interim senior vice president for economic development, in an interview. "This put us on the radar screen with consultants and now there's a lot of information out there on us."

Murphy agrees, adding "this kind of publicity will pay dividends for another couple of months to a year."


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 30, 2020, 08:48:37 pm
Then this one from the Tulsa World today about CBRE's Tech Talent report which is the 2nd most downloaded report that they produce (it's a reoccurring report they produce):

https://tulsaworld.com/business/tulsa-ranked-as-promising-north-american-tech-talent-market-by-national-real-estate-firm/article_062b9c00-ba0e-5c1b-8145-06b3462e7f06.html

Tulsa has been listed as an “up-and-coming” North American tech-talent market, according to national commercial real estate services company CBRE.

Tulsa joined Oklahoma City on CBRE’s Scoring Tech Talent Report, which rates 75 U.S. and Canadian markets according to their ability to attract and expand tech talent.

Up-and-coming markets are separate from the 50 larger tech markets CBRE lists. In that secondary group, Tulsa ranked 15th overall, with its tech labor force growing by 34% to about 13,040 area tech employees in a recent five-year period. Tech salaries in Tulsa also have steadily increased, with total wage growth rising by 12% over that same span, according to the report.

Ranked No. 17 on the next 25 list, Oklahoma City saw its tech talent labor force grow 7% over five years to a total tech employment of 19,540 employees. Tech wages have also increased by 13 percent since 2014.

The up-and-coming markets were ranked by a narrower set of criteria than the top 50, including tech talent supply, wages, tech-talent concentration, recent tech talent growth rates and outlook.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 31, 2020, 08:35:52 am
I've been saying this for years and those that have been on this forum awhile are probably rolling their eyes: invest in higher education and it will pay dividends.  That is the missing ingredient Tulsa needs to take the next step.  The University of Tulsa, even as a private institution, should be leading the way and expanding.  They need to be more like a Vanderbilt or TCU.  And OSU and OU-Tulsa need to be full 4 year universities with residential campuses in their respective parts of town (Greenwood for OSU and midtown for OU).  

OSU Health Sciences/OSU Med Center/VA Hospital should be a medical complex on par with OU's in OKC.  And OSU should have all of its research programs and facilities in Tulsa.  The flagship undergraduate campus will always be in Stillwater but the bulk of graduate programs as well as undergrad programs in engineering, science, technology and business should be offered in Tulsa.  Look no further than Nebraska for how to operate a flagship campus (UNL) as well as an urban research campus (UNO) or the University of Colorado with Boulder and Denver.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on July 31, 2020, 01:23:10 pm
I've seen a lot of stories like these lately... let's hope this turns into some good news over the next year and we can build on some momentum.

From Costar News:

Promise of Tulsa, Oklahoma, Real Estate Emerges in Tesla Factory Site Search
Low Cost of Living Could Be a Lure for Companies


Three reasons why Tulsa stands out involve industrial real estate, a property type that has surged in demand as more consumers shop online and create a need for added logistics centers and warehouses. While Tesla ultimately decided to build a plant in Austin, Texas, it was lured by forces that led industrial real estate in Tulsa, even with 1 million fewer people in the surrounding region than Austin, to grow to 108 million square feet of space to surpass Austin's 107 million square feet, according to CoStar data.

That industrial real estate is less than half the price in Tulsa than it is in Austin, and Tulsa is outpacing its Texas rival for new construction of that property type. Real estate professionals say the presence of far more industrial real estate per capita, and at a far lower cost, in Tulsa than in high-profile Austin shows Oklahoma's second-largest city is primed for manufacturing growth. It also helps explain why Tulsa came down to the wire after Tesla initially looked at eight centrally located U.S. states to house its $1 billion, 4 million- to 5 million-square-foot manufacturing plant, a site that's expected eventually to create 5,000 jobs to make the Model Y and Cybertruck.

Tesla’s interest in Tulsa confirms the city's desirability for large-scale advanced manufacturing projects and, even though historically dominated by the oil and gas industry, an ability to diversify its industries, said Chris Schwinden, a senior vice president who leads the industrial business for the Dallas-based Site Selection Group advisory firm.

“If you look at its location in the south central United States, it makes a lot of sense that big companies want to be there,” said Schwinden, who's familiar with the region but isn't involved in Tulsa deals. “Tulsa is a really strong manufacturing market with robust training programs and a strong pipeline of labor. Tulsa is a Goldilocks-type of market that's big enough to satisfy hiring needs and not too big in which a company might have to deal with traffic congestion and other issues that pop up in larger cities.”

"Tulsa has flown under the radar for quite some time and Tesla's interest has brought the city to the forefront in terms of growth and quality of life," Hendershot said in an interview.

Developers in Tulsa don't tend to build large amounts of speculative industrial buildings as they do across the Red River in Texas. Instead, Oklahoma developers tend to wait to have a tenant in tow before beginning construction, he said.

That patience paid off with Tulsa landing a four-story, 2.56 million-square-foot Amazon e-commerce hub near the Muscogee Creek Nation that Hendershot said was "the crowning jewel of the decade for Tulsa," with a lot of land to do more deals. For real estate investors, Tulsa, which Hendershot says is like Austin a decade ago, can be seen as a bargain compared to the capital city of Texas, which ranked No. 1 in the nation for commercial real estate prospects and demand this year, according to the Urban Land Institute's annual survey.

Tulsa is a "really big small town" with growth potential because of what he calls business-friendly atmosphere and economic development help from the surrounding tribes in Oklahoma, said Schwinden.

"The tribal participation in economic development in Tulsa and, more broadly in Oklahoma, can be a big advantage for companies," Schwinden said in an interview. "It's a little bit of the secret sauce as it relates to economic development in Oklahoma being positioned to win big deals."

Native American tribes helped bring some big names to Oklahoma with the Cherokee Nation and the Muscogee Creek Nation being part of a larger coalition in helping e-commerce giant Amazon expand its presence in Tulsa. Years ago, the Cherokee Nation brought a half million dollars of economic incentives to a deal to bring a 1.2 million-square-foot distribution center for Macy's to Tulsa.

For potential employers, Schwinden said Tulsa could be a "surprisingly cool" choice with an arts and museum and culinary scene. City leaders created the Tulsa Remote program in 2018 to lure diverse young professionals with remote jobs by giving them up to $10,000 and office space in coworking locations. The program is funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which recently donated $50 million to develop workforce development programs in Tulsa targeting jobs in energy technology, virtual health, drones, cybertechnology and data analytics.

As part of the $50 million investment, the Holberton School, a coding academy in San Francisco, is expected to open its third U.S. campus in Tulsa in early 2021. Billionaire George Kaiser made his money in oil and gas and banking and he opened The Gathering Place, a 66-acre park in Tulsa that's the largest public park in the country built with private funds, in 2018.

Several high-profile tech companies are planning a permanent work-from-home setup because of the pandemic and Tulsa might be a draw for workers and employers looking to exit big city life and rents, Schwinden said. For investors, this could be a good time to prepare for what is expected to be a bigger future for the city.

"There's an opportunity for Tulsa to better prepare with the help of developers, investors and especially the local community, which can play a big role in these industrial parks," Schwinden added.

Social media giant Facebook plans to hire remote employees in areas such as Dallas, Denver and Atlanta and pay them salaries based on their location, a move that could save Facebook a substantial amount considering the average annual tech salary in its hometown in Silicon Valley is $136,060, the highest in the nation, according to CBRE.

Growth Potential

Tulsa ranked as one of the 25 smaller markets to watch this year for growth potential for fostering tech talent development, according to CBRE's Scoring Tech Talent report. Tulsa had 13,040 tech workers in 2019, up 34% over the past year, with an average salary of $77,701, according to CBRE. Austin, meanwhile, ranked No. 6 on the report out of large markets and had 76,270 tech jobs in 2019, up 16.7% since 2014, paying an average annual salary of $95,416, according to CBRE.

Still, Tulsa has a high concentration of energy companies and is expected to be hurt by low oil prices. Energy companies have been hesitant to add jobs back, and consolidation and closings are disrupting Tulsa's office sector, according to a CoStar market analytics report.

And Austin's commercial real estate growth in the past decade has an edge over Tulsa in terms of two high-profile cultural factors: The Austin music scene is so strong it fostered the television program and festival Austin City Limits, which gave that city a national profile. Austin also is home to the well-known University of Texas at Austin, which provides so much trained technology workers that global companies like Google, Facebook and Apple have opened offices in the city. Those names often result in smaller tech companies popping up in the same area.

Even so, Tesla's Musk said on an earnings call last week when it posted its fourth consecutive quarter of positive profits that the Fortune 500 company will consider Tulsa for future expansions. That "bodes well for the future" of the city, said Bill Murphy, who oversaw economic development for the Tulsa Regional Chamber during the Tesla search. He now holds a deputy secretary role with the Kansas Department of Commerce.

"This reflects the community at large really put forward a positive image of the state and the community and we were able to compete with a world class city like Austin," Murphy said in an interview. "To have Elon Musk mention your city in an earnings call is every economic developer's dream."

As far as proceeding on any immediate large-scale development, the Tulsa area has three sites ready to go. MidAmerica Industrial Park is a business area involved in large industrial deals with tenant companies such as DuPont and Google, officials said.

Other sites being heavily marketed by Tulsa leaders include the Peoria Mohawk Business Park, an industrial area developed by the George Kaiser Family Foundation and the city of Tulsa in a partnership to drive business to north Tulsa, and the Claremore Industrial Park in Claremore, Oklahoma. Other sites near Tulsa, including in Broken Arrow and Muskogee, are also development possibilities.

Justin McLaughlin, executive vice president and chief operating officer for the Tulsa Regional Chamber, said finding large industrial development areas across the country can be difficult, but the Tulsa region has several "shovel ready" sites ready to go.

"You don't get looked at for these large projects unless you have the sites," said McLaughlin, who also is interim senior vice president for economic development, in an interview. "This put us on the radar screen with consultants and now there's a lot of information out there on us."

Murphy agrees, adding "this kind of publicity will pay dividends for another couple of months to a year."

They kinda stepped on their point by touting the attraction of an Amazon fulfillment center.  I mean, where does Amazon NOT have a fulfillment center?  (Hint: they are building one in Des Moines too, and one in Little Rock)  They currently have about 164 fulfillment centers in the US and are opening another 16 (including Tulsa) this year.  Getting one's first Amazon fulfillment center in 2020 doesn't tell us much about a city other than that it is a mid-sized metro area (perhaps a slightly under-achieving one).


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 31, 2020, 03:31:44 pm
I've been saying this for years and those that have been on this forum awhile are probably rolling their eyes: invest in higher education and it will pay dividends.  That is the missing ingredient Tulsa needs to take the next step.  The University of Tulsa, even as a private institution, should be leading the way and expanding.  They need to be more like a Vanderbilt or TCU.  And OSU and OU-Tulsa need to be full 4 year universities with residential campuses in their respective parts of town (Greenwood for OSU and midtown for OU).  

OSU Health Sciences/OSU Med Center/VA Hospital should be a medical complex on par with OU's in OKC.  And OSU should have all of its research programs and facilities in Tulsa.  The flagship undergraduate campus will always be in Stillwater but the bulk of graduate programs as well as undergrad programs in engineering, science, technology and business should be offered in Tulsa.  Look no further than Nebraska for how to operate a flagship campus (UNL) as well as an urban research campus (UNO) or the University of Colorado with Boulder and Denver.




Me too!  True!

Dallas and Texas in general didn't get the likes of Texas Instruments (Geophysical Service, Inc) by not having decent technical education!  As much as I like to tease Texas about being Baja Oklahoma, and some of the other crap they pull, technically, they shine!

And the eye rollers are just ignorant mouth breathers who don't understand much beyond how to pull a t-shirt over their head!   And half the time they get that inside out!


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Jake on August 04, 2020, 08:03:40 am
https://youtu.be/5ZZTBUtmX3M

Perspective from Musk himself on why Austin was chosen.

When asked about Oklahoma: "Wasn't a matter of who wanted Tesla. There's a critical mass of engineering and management that are needed to create this factory. There are a lot of smart talented people; it's not like just dropping a copy machine somewhere. The factory is the product more than the car. So it matters where these really talented people are willing to go and what is an uphill battle. Austin was not an uphill battle; that's why we picked Austin."

Also said there will be a 3rd gigafactory but said it would likely be in the northeast U.S. in the next 4-5 years, so it's doubtful Tulsa will ever get a Tesla factory.

Oklahoma simply doesn't have the education centers like Austin or other large cities do.

On the bright side, maybe all this national attention will attract another call center to Tulsa?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on August 04, 2020, 08:46:51 am
https://youtu.be/5ZZTBUtmX3M

Perspective from Musk himself on why Austin was chosen.

When asked about Oklahoma: "Wasn't a matter of who wanted Tesla. There's a critical mass of engineering and management that are needed to create this factory. There are a lot of smart talented people; it's not like just dropping a copy machine somewhere. The factory is the product more than the car. So it matters where these really talented people are willing to go and what is an uphill battle. Austin was not an uphill battle; that's why we picked Austin."

Also said there will be a 3rd gigafactory but said it would likely be in the northeast U.S. in the next 4-5 years, so it's doubtful Tulsa will ever get a Tesla factory.

Oklahoma simply doesn't have the education centers like Austin or other large cities do.

On the bright side, maybe all this national attention will attract another call center to Tulsa?

If Reno and Buffalo can attract a Tesla factory so can Tulsa.  There is an electric truck factory in Normal, Illinois (Rivian).  We lost this round but are very much in the game, maybe not specifically for Tesla but other advanced manufacturing companies.  To my point though we need to better invest in higher education and part of that is having TU raise its profile as an engineering/technology hub which is attainable.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 04, 2020, 09:49:35 am
If Reno and Buffalo can attract a Tesla factory so can Tulsa.  There is an electric truck factory in Normal, Illinois (Rivian).  We lost this round but are very much in the game, maybe not specifically for Tesla but other advanced manufacturing companies.  To my point though we need to better invest in higher education and part of that is having TU raise its profile as an engineering/technology hub which is attainable.

Agreed, I do think Tesla will build the next plant for cars likely in the Northeast. Given what someone else said about their delivery model being different (direct to consumers) that makes total sense they would want a factory in the Mid Atlantic or Northeast.

I still think when they get around to building the semi, Tulsa is probably the perfect location for it given our location in the Central US and near major trucking companies and people like Walmart who would be huge customers of the semi.

Even if Telsa doesn't come to Tulsa even, there's other electric car makers (Rivian, Fisker, Nikola, etc.) that all likely have Tulsa on their list now to at least scope out for future plants given we were a finalist for Tesla.

I have hope that Kaiser's involvement with TU will transform the university into something similar to Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. That has been such a huge boost for that city that once was largely in the same category of other rust belt cities and now has become one of the biggest tech hubs in the Northeast for things like self driving cars. I'm encourage by the sectors they are focusing on like drones tech. OSU has probably the nations best drone programs in the nation and we've done little to capture much from that in partnering with tech firms. TU is also fairly well known for cyber security and further growing that sector which is a focus for the Kaiser foundation I think will pay off too, this will become a key sector of technology going forward not just for the civic side (cities, state, federal govt) but also for private firms like banks, etc. and we could become a hub for companies security divisions.

I find more to be encouraged about all of this and I just hope we don't go back to sleep, which I feel a lot of our leadership has been for the past several decades and actually use this moment to move forward with things we need to improve upon like higher education and research which is the catalyst for being an attractive market for expansion of most tech companies. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on August 04, 2020, 11:05:00 am
Agreed, I do think Tesla will build the next plant for cars likely in the Northeast. Given what someone else said about their delivery model being different (direct to consumers) that makes total sense they would want a factory in the Mid Atlantic or Northeast.

I still think when they get around to building the semi, Tulsa is probably the perfect location for it given our location in the Central US and near major trucking companies and people like Walmart who would be huge customers of the semi.

Even if Telsa doesn't come to Tulsa even, there's other electric car makers (Rivian, Fisker, Nikola, etc.) that all likely have Tulsa on their list now to at least scope out for future plants given we were a finalist for Tesla.

I have hope that Kaiser's involvement with TU will transform the university into something similar to Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. That has been such a huge boost for that city that once was largely in the same category of other rust belt cities and now has become one of the biggest tech hubs in the Northeast for things like self driving cars. I'm encourage by the sectors they are focusing on like drones tech. OSU has probably the nations best drone programs in the nation and we've done little to capture much from that in partnering with tech firms. TU is also fairly well known for cyber security and further growing that sector which is a focus for the Kaiser foundation I think will pay off too, this will become a key sector of technology going forward not just for the civic side (cities, state, federal govt) but also for private firms like banks, etc. and we could become a hub for companies security divisions.

I find more to be encouraged about all of this and I just hope we don't go back to sleep, which I feel a lot of our leadership has been for the past several decades and actually use this moment to move forward with things we need to improve upon like higher education and research which is the catalyst for being an attractive market for expansion of most tech companies. 

Musk has already said the semi will also be built in Austin.  "In addition to the Cybertruck, Tesla will also build Model Ys and Model 3s destined for the East Coast, as well as the Tesla Semi," Musk said.  https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Jake on August 04, 2020, 11:25:05 am
Reno and Buffalo are battery factories, which are very different from what Austin will be getting. Could Tulsa get a battery factory in the future? Possibly, and I agree that there's some positive momentum moving forward for something similar for Tulsa, which would be really cool.

But for the management positions that the Austin facility will include, Tulsa was never a real possibility. The higher-ups at Tesla were never going to choose Tulsa over Austin for that.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 04, 2020, 04:22:29 pm
Musk has already said the semi will also be built in Austin.  "In addition to the Cybertruck, Tesla will also build Model Ys and Model 3s destined for the East Coast, as well as the Tesla Semi," Musk said.  https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/22/21334860/tesla-cybertruck-factory-austin-texas-location-model-y


Not that I'm an expert on this, but just seems like given the amount of cars they produce from their existing plant in Fremont that if they plan to grow at the rate many predict I'd bet at some point sooner or later they need a dedicated Semi plant in addition to an east coast plant. Some of that will depend on the popularity of the cybertruck and if they plan a second truck (which Elon has said is likely if demand for a less edgy design is not as popular as they hope). I'd imagine they start production of the semi in Austin but would likely need its own dedicated plant for that at some point.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on August 06, 2020, 06:34:05 am

Great....(sarcastically)....just what we need - another battery plant here.  As if Picher wasn't bad enough... What new part of the state can we render uninhabitable next?  Between lead and big oil, just try to get a decent water well in NE Oklahoma!






Toto, stop pulling on that curtain!


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 10, 2020, 01:22:57 pm

I still think when they get around to building the semi, Tulsa is probably the perfect location for it given our location in the Central US and near major trucking companies and people like Walmart who would be huge customers of the semi.




If Walmart fleet (about 6,000 tractors) was a trucking company, it would be number 10 in the US.  Just ahead of CRST.   Nothing to sneeze at, but not even close to the big ones several of whom have more than twice that many.   Walmart does use other companies a LOT.!  I hauled a lot of Walmart freight when I drove.  To stores and DC's.


https://www.truckaccidentattorneynetwork.org/10-largest-trucking-companies-in-us/






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on August 22, 2020, 07:51:42 pm
https://www.theverge.com/21375891/tesla-tulsa-cybertruck-factory-elon-musk-statue-memes

...and as for the parody video by Retrospec, what was that accent?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on October 30, 2020, 03:46:12 pm
Tesla just "announced" they will be building another Gigafactory, this time for the Semi and Roadster. Much like I expected that they wouldn't be able to handle production of the Semi at the Austin plant. This was in their Q3 2020 10-Q Form.

It will be located in the United States, location: TBD

Haven't heard the timeline in selection yet on when they want to start construction, but I'd imagine as with everything Tesla does it will be sooner rather than later.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: AdamsHall on October 30, 2020, 04:10:41 pm
Tesla just "announced" they will be building another Gigafactory, this time for the Semi and Roadster. Much like I expected that they wouldn't be able to handle production of the Semi at the Austin plant. This was in their Q3 2020 10-Q Form.

It will be located in the United States, location: TBD

Haven't heard the timeline in selection yet on when they want to start construction, but I'd imagine as with everything Tesla does it will be sooner rather than later.

NICE!


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on October 30, 2020, 10:30:09 pm
Tesla just "announced" they will be building another Gigafactory, this time for the Semi and Roadster. Much like I expected that they wouldn't be able to handle production of the Semi at the Austin plant. This was in their Q3 2020 10-Q Form.

It will be located in the United States, location: TBD

Haven't heard the timeline in selection yet on when they want to start construction, but I'd imagine as with everything Tesla does it will be sooner rather than later.

The 10-Q doesn’t say they are planning a new Gigafactory.  It shows a summary of the status of production of each of their vehicle models in production and under development.  That chart says the semi and roadster are “in development” and that the production location for those vehicles will be a US location TBD. It says nothing about planning a new Gigafactory for those vehicles.  They could very well produce them at one of their other existing or planned Gigafactories especially given that they said earlier this year the semi will be built in Austin.  See page 35:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data//1318605/000156459020047486/tsla-10q_20200930.htm


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on October 31, 2020, 10:25:46 am
The 10-Q doesn’t say they are planning a new Gigafactory.  It shows a summary of the status of production of each of their vehicle models in production and under development.  That chart says the semi and roadster are “in development” and that the production location for those vehicles will be a US location TBD. It says nothing about planning a new Gigafactory for those vehicles.  They could very well produce them at one of their other existing or planned Gigafactories especially given that they said earlier this year the semi will be built in Austin.  See page 35:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data//1318605/000156459020047486/tsla-10q_20200930.htm


If they said that earlier this year and that was the plan still then the production would be listed in the Austin plant or are you not capable or reading a simple chart? Not surprising.

Tesla and Elon have both said they plan to build several more plants in the US and globally. There was a big change recently in the fact that Tesla now plans to produce battery cells in Austin, which was not part of the plan several months ago. That will make it very hard to produce more than the Y and Cybertruck in Austin, hints why they are now saying they don't have a location and it's listed in a separate area as TBD for the Semi and Roadster and will need a new plant for those. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on October 31, 2020, 10:48:32 am
If they said that earlier this year and that was the plan still then the production would be listed in the Austin plant or are you not capable or reading a simple chart? Not surprising.

Tesla and Elon have both said they plan to build several more plants in the US and globally. There was a big change recently in the fact that Tesla now plans to produce battery cells in Austin, which was not part of the plan several months ago. That will make it very hard to produce more than the Y and Cybertruck in Austin, hints why they are now saying they don't have a location and it's listed in a separate area as TBD for the Semi and Roadster and will need a new plant for those. 

Whatever they are thinking or planning, the fact is the 10-Q says nothing about planning a new gigafactory for the semi or roadster. Your post claiming such was false.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on October 31, 2020, 10:56:02 am
Whatever they are thinking or planning, the fact is the 10-Q says nothing about planning a new gigafactory for the semi or roadster. Your post claiming such was false.

I'm not sure you could find your nose if it wasn't attached to your face. You'd probably then argue that if someone said your nose is on the center of your face is false! Because it's actually a 1/32 of an inch off center. Therefore you are all knowing and everyone else has no idea what they're talking about. You're the only person who is correct, because you said so.

It's pretty apparent given everything they've said and are doing what that means. Fine by me if you keep your head in the sand and can't see what's going on around you. Hopefully the people working on the Cybertruck deal with the city/state aren't sleeping on this or we'll be behind the curve, I sure know you wouldn't be one of them. Again, if Tesla was planning to build the Semi and Roadster in Austin or one of their other plants they wouldn't have a TBD location in that report. So that means something whether you can comprehend that or not. They don't have to say point blank we will be building a new plant for these for that to be understood. They aren't going to have magical unicorns building them out of thin air, so that means they need a facility to build them in, which is TBD and is not at any of the existing plants. Not really not hard to get the point of that.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on November 01, 2020, 11:41:47 am
Here is the sum total of what Tesla's 10-Q says about the location of the production of their forthcoming semi and roadster:

"US location(s) TBD"

That's it.  Nowhere does it say or hint that they will be building another gigafactory.  Nowhere does it say or hint that they will not be produced at one of their current locations. The only information it gives us about the location is (1) it will be in the US and (2) it may be more than one location.

Interestingly, the subject of the semi and roadster production location does not even come up during the 3rd quarter earnings call. They discussed the semi at length, but never mentioned (and no one asked about) where it was going to be produced.  

Here's the link again, for anyone interested in facts:  https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data//1318605/000156459020047486/tsla-10q_20200930.htm


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2020, 01:10:57 pm
Here is the sum total of what Tesla's 10-Q says about the location of the production of their forthcoming semi and roadster:

"US location(s) TBD"

That's it.  Nowhere does it say or hint that they will be building another gigafactory.  Nowhere does it say or hint that they will not be produced at one of their current locations. The only information it gives us about the location is (1) it will be in the US and (2) it may be more than one location.

Interestingly, the subject of the semi and roadster production location does not even come up during the 3rd quarter earnings call. They discussed the semi at length, but never mentioned (and no one asked about) where it was going to be produced.  

Here's the link again, for anyone interested in facts:  https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data//1318605/000156459020047486/tsla-10q_20200930.htm


Since you have such a hard time being able to digest actual 'facts' and what a chart means/says I'll post it here for easier discussion. The fact below for what is posted in the filing for easier reference and was what my original post said and was about when I said "announcement" meaning not a real announcement but something intentionally posted in the filing:

(https://i.ibb.co/n1GPb6R/Screen-Shot-2020-11-01-at-12-58-03-PM.png)

This is intentional... why would Tesla specifically leave the Semi/Roadster in the TBD for location when they have other 'in development' in specific locations? If they really planned to build them in Texas, they would be listed as in development in the Austin location. It's really not difficult to figure out the meaning behind this.

It's not like they just randomly say oh 'TBD' like you are insinuating. If they aren't building it in Texas and location is TBD - they aren't going to fall out of the sky.

Since when did a public company completely come out and announce new location prior to them doing the beginning stages of the search. I would bet you money that they have already started the search for a new giga factory in the US and in the next 12 months you'll start hearing more 'leaks' as they get close to finalizing the site for the semi, given they plan production of that around 2022 and have already been testing it at the Nevada site getting it ready for mass production.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on November 01, 2020, 01:35:47 pm
Since you have such a hard time being able to digest actual 'facts' and what a chart means/says I'll post it here for easier discussion. The fact below for what is posted in the filing for easier reference and was my original post said and was about:

(https://i.ibb.co/n1GPb6R/Screen-Shot-2020-11-01-at-12-58-03-PM.png)

This is intentional... why would Tesla specifically leave the Semi/Roadster in the TBD for location when they have other 'in development' in specific locations? If they really planned to build them in Texas, they would be listed as in development in the Austin location. It's really not difficult to figure out the meaning behind this.

It's not like they just randomly say oh 'TBD' like you are insinuating. If they aren't building it in Texas and location is TBD - they aren't going to fall out of the sky.

ROFL  I don't know why you are so invested in believing something that is simply not there.  Yes, there is no doubt that every word in the 10-Q is intentional.  It says TBD because they haven't made a final decision. It's as simple as that.  Your belief that they have decided to build a whole new gigafactory for the semi/roadster or that they have decided to build it at an entirely new location has been entirely invented in your own mind. Neither concept is mentioned or hinted at in the 10-Q.

The others that are in development for which they name their production locations are further along in their development process and therefore their production location decisions have been made and finalized.  Quite simple, really.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2020, 01:39:58 pm
ROFL  I don't know why you are so invested in believing something that is simply not there.  Yes, there is no doubt that every word in the 10-Q is intentional.  It says TBD because they haven't made a final decision. It's as simple as that.  Your belief that they have decided to build a whole new gigafactory for the semi/roadster or that they have decided to build it at an entirely new location has been entirely invented in your own mind.

The others that are in development for which they name their production locations are further along in their development process and therefore their production location decisions have been made and finalized.  Quite simple, really.

You must be a joy at parties. What's so funny about you is you get lost in trying to twist things and then make peoples point for them.

"Yes, there is no doubt that every word in the 10-Q is intentional"

My entire point, troll. From there's it's a discussion on a forum... of opinions. My opinion is this means, given how this is presented, that they are looking for a new location at some point for the semi and roadster. It's also based on everything Tesla is doing currently, has said publicly, announced about changes at the Austin plant in the last few months, and previous actions. It's entirely plausible this is already in motion that they are starting the search for the next giga factory. Do you really believe Tesla will never build another? If so, you're an idiot.

Why do you get on a forum where people discuss opinions if you don't want to hear anything but yourself speak what you like to label "facts"?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on November 01, 2020, 02:12:25 pm
From what I have heard the next factory will be located closer to the eastern US markets.  Not sure if that means somewhere in the Rust Belt or somewhere in the Southeast.  I know Nashville/Tennessee were in the mix for the last Gigafactory. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2020, 02:26:49 pm
From what I have heard the next factory will be located closer to the eastern US markets.  Not sure if that means somewhere in the Rust Belt or somewhere in the Southeast.  I know Nashville/Tennessee were in the mix for the last Gigafactory.  

I could definitely see this, given everything else going on in Nashville. It's essentially that part of the country's 'Austin'

Elon has said that at some point they will need a plant in that part of the country for Model 3 & Y production for the east coast. I really wouldn't be surprised if Tesla didn't build 2-3 plants in the US in the next 5 years.  

I could also see somewhere like a Columbus or Pittsburgh being a location for the NE as they expand manufacturing capacity. All three have solid universities and larger 'tech' presence than Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on November 01, 2020, 02:36:30 pm
Alright, my work here is done.  Anyone who can read can readily see that, contrary to the (false) claim made above, Tesla has in fact made no announcement about planning a new gigafactory for the semi or that the semi will be manufactured somewhere other than their current locations.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2020, 02:40:41 pm
Alright, my work here is done.  Anyone who can read can readily see that, contrary to the (false) claim made above, Tesla has in fact made no announcement about planning a new gigafactory for the semi or that the semi will be manufactured somewhere other than their current locations.

Oh yes, you twisting "announcement" when the original post has quotations around that word and wasn't meant as me saying official announcement. Learn to read yourself. The entire point of the original post was all about the chart in the SEC filing and you decided to go on a rant and take it out of context like you have done with many others on here, hooray for you making a point that was never made by me in the first place. Then try to attack people's opinions when confronted about it. Go away troll.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 01, 2020, 03:58:49 pm
The Giga Factory doesn't need to be in a city with major tech and highly acclaimed university/college. The existing Giga Factory is located 30 some miles from Reno/Sparks NV which is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. It's almost 400 miles from the plant to the Bay Area.

https://goo.gl/maps/ezK5BgYZ81AgTR836 (https://goo.gl/maps/ezK5BgYZ81AgTR836)

And a plant for the Semi or roadster tin the Tennessee area is a great choice because you already have Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Mercedes with plants in that part of the country.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on November 01, 2020, 05:03:20 pm
Consensus seems to be that there is intent for a third US factory, more likely than not in the Northeast.

 https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fifth-gigafactory-united-states/ (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fifth-gigafactory-united-states/)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2020, 05:17:14 pm
The Giga Factory doesn't need to be in a city with major tech and highly acclaimed university/college. The existing Giga Factory is located 30 some miles from Reno/Sparks NV which is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. It's almost 400 miles from the plant to the Bay Area.

https://goo.gl/maps/ezK5BgYZ81AgTR836 (https://goo.gl/maps/ezK5BgYZ81AgTR836)

And a plant for the Semi or roadster tin the Tennessee area is a great choice because you already have Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Mercedes with plants in that part of the country.

Definitely doesn't have to go in a 'tech' hub but Tesla did seem to make that a point as to being a key weakness in Austin vs Tulsa is the employment base/quality of life, that it'd be easier to recruit engineers in a market like Austin. Obviously with the plant in the Reno area it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue or the plant in Buffalo.

If they do intend to build a plant for the semi separate from others then I'd think the middle of the US would make sense and Nashville could be close enough toward the central US to make that work versus Tulsa. Like you said there's a huge employment base to recruit from with all the other plants in neighboring states.

I do think at some point regardless they will build a second plant for Model 3 & Y production in the Eastern US and Tulsa will have no shot at getting that. Likely our only hope to get a Tesla plant is if the semi needs its own plant/production. That's why I found that chart in their filings so interesting.

Something others mentioned here that made a lot of sense and why they are building out plants like this is the direct to consumer sales that's different than traditional car manufacturing. They want locations near key markets, and why the truck is being built in the central US and probably why the Fremont plant will stay important given they sell so many cars in California. Elon has made it clear he wants to expand marketshare in the east and having a plant to improve delivery speed out that direction will become a necessity at some point.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on November 02, 2020, 09:53:01 am
Lemme just chime in here that Elon Musk is an a$$. Beyond that, once Tesla can't rely on selling carbon credits to turn a profit they're going to have problems. At this point things might seem rosy since they're the only game in town to a degree, but once other manufacturers start selling more EVs and need to buy less carbon credits, the Tesla balance sheet isn't going to look good (it doesn't look good now either but I digress). Musk, like Trump, is a blow-smoke-up-your-a$$ salesman and once you start digging all you find are smoke and mirrors. I'm glad Tulsa didn't get the Tesla factory - the last thing we need is another big empty building when the poop hits the balance sheet.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on November 02, 2020, 10:11:26 am
Tesla isn't the only player in the electric vehicle game.  There's Rivian, Lucid, etc in addition to the traditional car companies that will be converting to EV's over the next decade.  It absolutely should be something Tulsa continues to pursue along with aerospace/drones and robotics, we are very well-suited to be heavily involved in this budding industry.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on November 02, 2020, 10:52:44 pm
Tesla isn't the only player in the electric vehicle game.  There's Rivian, Lucid, etc in addition to the traditional car companies that will be converting to EV's over the next decade.  It absolutely should be something Tulsa continues to pursue along with aerospace/drones and robotics, we are very well-suited to be heavily involved in this budding industry.

I completely agree. I just don't think we should be looking for something as big as a car factory especially from a company like Tesla whose fortunes, I believe, are on rather shaky ground. I would love to see multiple smaller facilities pop up to make various components for EVs.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 02, 2020, 11:42:04 pm
Tesla originally planned on building a factory to build cars in Albuquerque NM because of it's central location. The reason they wound up at the old GM/NUMMI plant in Fremont CA is the mayor of Fremont gave them a deal at $42 million dollars to take over part of the plant while they were trying to work with other manufacturers. The NUMMI plant had been vacant for some time and was scheduled to be demolished. It was originally built by GM in the early 60's as the GM Fremont Plant. Tesla opened in October 2010. It had nothing to do with Silicon Valley, or the colleges and universities in the area, Elon got a facility for dirt cheap.

As for rail line access, just like the Giga Factory in NV, the facilities have no direct rail access (spurs or direct lines) into them.

One advantage Austin has for the semi plant is that it's located near quite a few shipping hubs for over the road transportation. Walmart would be one of their biggest buyers in Bentonville, FedEx in Memphis and several others I'm sure. Having the plant in Austin also creates a good R&D and engineering environment.

Going back to the rail line discussion, here are links from Google Maps that show that the NUMMI plant now has no rail connection, and the rail yard next to it has no roll on/rolloff facilities.

https://goo.gl/maps/RL4PZdcuF2pmRa1T6 (https://goo.gl/maps/RL4PZdcuF2pmRa1T6)

https://goo.gl/maps/hHbTZ6sfnEHb4FEm6 (https://goo.gl/maps/hHbTZ6sfnEHb4FEm6)

https://goo.gl/maps/jKXYgXYd9foxsDdb9 (https://goo.gl/maps/jKXYgXYd9foxsDdb9)

GM production from Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly)

NUMMI joint GM Toyota use from Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 03, 2020, 01:27:28 am
People call Musk crazy, but lets look at some real numbers. Musk founded Tesla in 2004 received $0.4 billion dollars in loans from the US Gov't, and paid them back with interest from the production at the plant in Fremont.

Solyndra, the darling of the green energy tech got $0.5 Billion from the US Gov't  and built a plant to make solar energy panels just a few miles from where Musk started building electric vehicles.

Which one lasted? Which one tanked in six years? And before you call BS, Solyndra was surrounded by Silicon Valley, Stanford, Palo Alto and Livermore. These are universities and facilities that helped in the creation of the US nuclear program after WW II.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-sLpdxmn/0/1a89af97/M/i-sLpdxmn-M.jpg)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 03, 2020, 11:39:49 am
Lemme just chime in here that Elon Musk is an a$$. Beyond that, once Tesla can't rely on selling carbon credits to turn a profit they're going to have problems. At this point things might seem rosy since they're the only game in town to a degree, but once other manufacturers start selling more EVs and need to buy less carbon credits, the Tesla balance sheet isn't going to look good (it doesn't look good now either but I digress). Musk, like Trump, is a blow-smoke-up-your-a$$ salesman and once you start digging all you find are smoke and mirrors. I'm glad Tulsa didn't get the Tesla factory - the last thing we need is another big empty building when the poop hits the balance sheet.

I had this same fear as well about Tesla for a long time (also had the same doubt about Amazon and I was so wrong about that). I've drank the 'kool-aid' on Tesla for a few reasons. They are sprinting toward a scale of production where they can be profitable without those subsidies and I think they recognize that those will be getting smaller and smaller every year as the other autos produce more EVs. They have by far the best battery technology, so even if for some reason their car production never becomes profitable they could easily pivot and be the sole battery provider for most major auto companies. Even the closest competitors, EV only, like Rivian or traditionals like Porshce and Audi are a decade behind Tesla in battery technology and Tesla is arguably widening that gap each year. A law that has gotten very little press, but is probably the biggest game changers for EVs in the US is California will require any car sold in a few years to be zero emissions. Anytime California has changed laws, given the size of the auto market there, it forces the hand of every company to change production nation wide as it's not profitable to make a car specific to California standards then to the rest of the US. They've done this with safety requirements and they were a key factor in getting auto makers to increase MPG and lowering emissions and is why we have the start/stop features on most cars now when you're at a stop light or stop briefly for example. If Trump is re-elect I'd expect this to be one of his bigger fights given he's already tried to go after their MPG efficiency requirements, I'd expect his administration to fight the requirement of any new car to be zero emission. Regardless, this is the future whether people like it or not, in 10-15 years most cars are likely to be EVs and not gas and Tesla is so far beyond any competitors they will have a leg up for a very long time. They have the cash to burn to get themselves to profitability too, which is critical to allowing them to expand quickly to get to the right scale needed to be a successful auto maker.

Just my thoughts on why I've changed my mind on Tesla, a year ago I was still in the camp of people who thought they'd be bankrupt in a few years. Which could still happen, but I think they have more positives going forward than negatives. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if GM and Ford don't exist in a decade and Fisker, Tesla, Rivian (Ford owns part of them) are the major car makers. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 03, 2020, 03:41:56 pm

 Musk, like Trump, is a blow-smoke-up-your-a$$ salesman and once you start digging all you find are smoke and mirrors. I'm glad Tulsa didn't get the Tesla factory - the last thing we need is another big empty building when the poop hits the balance sheet.



Like that big empty plant GM left in OKC...?   Good thing Tinker AFB was there to use it....


As for Tesla getting $$$ by whatever means he has used in the past, well, it ain't even within the same universe as the bailouts and subsidies and tax breaks oil and gas has gotten for 100 years.  If they were gonna be "successful" wouldn't they be off the government nipple by now?   Oh, wait... I forgot... never mind!

And wasn't it GM that got $50 Billion from Baby Bush last big recession we had?  Granted, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the other money he shoveled at his buddies, but hey, $50 billion would make my life a lot easier...!

And Tesla reported $104 million profit in 2nd quarter of 2020.  On $6 Billion in sales.  Lot of money. 

When everyone else was lined up asking for one of those PPP checks...  



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 03, 2020, 03:53:44 pm
Tesla originally planned on building a factory to build cars in Albuquerque NM because of it's central location. The reason they wound up at the old GM/NUMMI plant in Fremont CA is the mayor of Fremont gave them a deal at $42 million dollars to take over part of the plant while they were trying to work with other manufacturers. The NUMMI plant had been vacant for some time and was scheduled to be demolished. It was originally built by GM in the early 60's as the GM Fremont Plant. Tesla opened in October 2010. It had nothing to do with Silicon Valley, or the colleges and universities in the area, Elon got a facility for dirt cheap.

As for rail line access, just like the Giga Factory in NV, the facilities have no direct rail access (spurs or direct lines) into them.

One advantage Austin has for the semi plant is that it's located near quite a few shipping hubs for over the road transportation. Walmart would be one of their biggest buyers in Bentonville, FedEx in Memphis and several others I'm sure. Having the plant in Austin also creates a good R&D and engineering environment.




If OK had been using even a scrap of a brain, Stitt would have scrambled around, worked with Langford (since Inhofe is such a worthless lump...) and gotten the GM plant back from Tinker to give to Tesla.  I bet that would have been a HUGE factor in the decision.

But sadly, none of OK's recent politicians have that much initiative or brainpower.




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 05, 2020, 01:14:31 pm

If OK had been using even a scrap of a brain, Stitt would have scrambled around, worked with Langford (since Inhofe is such a worthless lump...) and gotten the GM plant back from Tinker to give to Tesla.  I bet that would have been a HUGE factor in the decision.

But sadly, none of OK's recent politicians have that much initiative or brainpower.




I believe the GM plant is being used now after Tinker bought it... it's not just sitting vacant. So that would not have been an option.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 06, 2020, 05:59:19 pm
I believe the GM plant is being used now after Tinker bought it... it's not just sitting vacant. So that would not have been an option.


Part of it is an engine repair/assembly plant, as well as a software facility.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on November 09, 2020, 05:50:32 pm

Like that big empty plant GM left in OKC...?   Good thing Tinker AFB was there to use it....


As for Tesla getting $$$ by whatever means he has used in the past, well, it ain't even within the same universe as the bailouts and subsidies and tax breaks oil and gas has gotten for 100 years.  If they were gonna be "successful" wouldn't they be off the government nipple by now?   Oh, wait... I forgot... never mind!

And wasn't it GM that got $50 Billion from Baby Bush last big recession we had?  Granted, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the other money he shoveled at his buddies, but hey, $50 billion would make my life a lot easier...!

And Tesla reported $104 million profit in 2nd quarter of 2020.  On $6 Billion in sales.  Lot of money.  

When everyone else was lined up asking for one of those PPP checks...  



Musk was declaring Covid to be a hoax so he could open up his Cali plant despite health department objections, worker safety be damned. He's still riding on the denier train at full speed because he's an a$$ who can't be wrong about anything (sound familiar?). And those profits are from carbon credit sales which, as I said before, are going to dry up when everyone else starts making enough electric cars to not have to buy someone else's credits. Musk is going to have to do a lot better than four vehicles with middling quality that can't even be sold in all 50 states. Tesla's best bet is to become a drivetrain manufacturer more than anything else. If they made the batteries or motors for everyone else then they can do well in the future but they won't do that and in the meantime all the other manufacturers are catching up with their own battery and motor technology.

I'd just rather see 50 smaller companies who had 20 employees each that sold widgets to multiple companies than one company have 1000 employees to sell one widget to a limited audience. Tulsa needs to not forget the oil crash of the early 80's and keep diversification at the forefront instead of going all in with a company that has $16 billion in debt.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 09, 2020, 07:02:04 pm
Musk was declaring Covid to be a hoax so he could open up his Cali plant despite health department objections, worker safety be damned. He's still riding on the denier train at full speed because he's an a$$ who can't be wrong about anything (sound familiar?). And those profits are from carbon credit sales which, as I said before, are going to dry up when everyone else starts making enough electric cars to not have to buy someone else's credits. Musk is going to have to do a lot better than four vehicles with middling quality that can't even be sold in all 50 states. Tesla's best bet is to become a drivetrain manufacturer more than anything else. If they made the batteries or motors for everyone else then they can do well in the future but they won't do that and in the meantime all the other manufacturers are catching up with their own battery and motor technology.

I'd just rather see 50 smaller companies who had 20 employees each that sold widgets to multiple companies than one company have 1000 employees to sell one widget to a limited audience. Tulsa needs to not forget the oil crash of the early 80's and keep diversification at the forefront instead of going all in with a company that has $16 billion in debt.


And yet, Tesla went through 2008 with no government bailouts as compared to GM that got over $50 Billion and still went bankrupt a month after the last one. (They did get a $465 million loan that they had to pay back.  Ford got one, too, only $5.9 Billion.)

Other electrics should be interesting - I am looking forward to them a lot.  So far, you can count out Nissan as making a viable anything - they can't even get their gas cars right...just a sad shadow of a once good car company...pathetic!  

GM Volt - warmed over 30 year old hack job that is just pretty much bu$$ ugly POS.  They started down the path decades ago, sold out to big oil, then came back with a sloppy, nondescript 'me-too! me-too!'.   Americans love their Chevy's.!

Prius while not quite fully electric is probably the biggest driver in the market for an alternative to straight gas burner.  And even though there are massive disparaging anti-campaigns by the terminally stupid, the Prius continues to be very successful by any measure.  (Wouldn't mind having one for daily driver, but way too small for the kind of highway trips I like to take...Tesla would be barely enough!)  I have some friends who have 5 of them in the family - Dad, Mom, total of 3.  One each for two of the kids.  They love them.

As of today, Tesla is the only viable choice for straight electric.  That can change, and quickly!  It should be a very interesting decade ahead for electric cars!   I am looking forward to it.!    Tesla has been getting flack from JD Powers about bad reliability, but then you have to look at the fact that they also rank Dodge at the top for reliability.  Right....up is down and down is up.!  Quick comparison, they put Toyota at number 21.   JD Powers has less than zero credibility.


I agree strongly about the 50 smaller companies!!   Much better for a more resilient, competitive economy.   And we do that around here - got a lot of them like that...that's a good thing!  Certainly could use more!








Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on November 10, 2020, 06:33:37 am

And yet, Tesla went through 2008 with no government bailouts as compared to GM that got over $50 Billion and still went bankrupt a month after the last one. (They did get a $465 million loan that they had to pay back.  Ford got one, too, only $5.9 Billion.)

Other electrics should be interesting - I am looking forward to them a lot.  So far, you can count out Nissan as making a viable anything - they can't even get their gas cars right...just a sad shadow of a once good car company...pathetic!  

GM Volt - warmed over 30 year old hack job that is just pretty much bu$$ ugly POS.  They started down the path decades ago, sold out to big oil, then came back with a sloppy, nondescript 'me-too! me-too!'.   Americans love their Chevy's.!

Prius while not quite fully electric is probably the biggest driver in the market for an alternative to straight gas burner.  And even though there are massive disparaging anti-campaigns by the terminally stupid, the Prius continues to be very successful by any measure.  (Wouldn't mind having one for daily driver, but way too small for the kind of highway trips I like to take...Tesla would be barely enough!)  I have some friends who have 5 of them in the family - Dad, Mom, total of 3.  One each for two of the kids.  They love them.

As of today, Tesla is the only viable choice for straight electric.  That can change, and quickly!  It should be a very interesting decade ahead for electric cars!   I am looking forward to it.!    Tesla has been getting flack from JD Powers about bad reliability, but then you have to look at the fact that they also rank Dodge at the top for reliability.  Right....up is down and down is up.!  Quick comparison, they put Toyota at number 21.   JD Powers has less than zero credibility.


I agree strongly about the 50 smaller companies!!   Much better for a more resilient, competitive economy.   And we do that around here - got a lot of them like that...that's a good thing!  Certainly could use more!


True however Tesla in 2008 was barely a company - certainly not what they are now. They didn't even deliver their first car until 2008 and the Tesla Roadster is really just an electric Lotus. They only had $14.74m in revenue in 2008 and had plenty of cash to sit on from investors but even then laid off almost a quarter of their workforce (which was like 363 people - GM had 243,000 in 2008).

As for reliability, it's really no surprise that Dodge is at the top of the list. Yes - their reliability in the past has been terrible but they have improved dramatically. Part of that is due to not changing components just to change components - the underpinnings of a lot of their cars are tried and true because they've had 20 years to make them reliable. Ford and GM practically kick out a new engine geometry with every car they come up with these days and never really teeth one design before starting a new one. Tesla is a real problem because honestly they don't have to worry about the powertrain - motors and batteries really don't fail. They also don't have to worry about user-facing physical interfaces failing since they only have a center control pad and steering wheel that looks like it's from some 90's econocar. So the fact that they can't manage to screw the cars together when that's basically the only thing they have to do says a lot (the body panel gaps on every Tesla I've looked at make 70's GM cars look great by comparison).

And while the Volt certainly screams "boring", it's much better looking than the duckface Tesla 3 (or the fat tick Tesla Y or the Nissan Leaf and so on). However, I understand most electric cars are pretty friggin' ugly since the general MO on their design is "look at me - I'm driving an electric car". That being said, Teslas are meh cars loosely bolted to an awesome drivetrain and once they have some actual competition, which they will the next few years, and especially since that competition will no longer need to buy carbon credits from Tesla, it's not going to be pretty. I'm curious who will be left standing when all these electric companies start consolidating.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 10, 2020, 10:12:08 am

As for reliability, it's really no surprise that Dodge is at the top of the list. Yes - their reliability in the past has been terrible but they have improved dramatically. Part of that is due to not changing components just to change components - the underpinnings of a lot of their cars are tried and true because they've had 20 years to make them reliable. Ford and GM practically kick out a new engine geometry with every car they come up with these days and never really teeth one design before starting a new one. Tesla is a real problem because honestly they don't have to worry about the powertrain - motors and batteries really don't fail. They also don't have to worry about user-facing physical interfaces failing since they only have a center control pad and steering wheel that looks like it's from some 90's econocar. So the fact that they can't manage to screw the cars together when that's basically the only thing they have to do says a lot (the body panel gaps on every Tesla I've looked at make 70's GM cars look great by comparison).

And while the Volt certainly screams "boring", it's much better looking than the duckface Tesla 3 (or the fat tick Tesla Y or the Nissan Leaf and so on). However, I understand most electric cars are pretty friggin' ugly since the general MO on their design is "look at me - I'm driving an electric car". That being said, Teslas are meh cars loosely bolted to an awesome drivetrain and once they have some actual competition, which they will the next few years, and especially since that competition will no longer need to buy carbon credits from Tesla, it's not going to be pretty. I'm curious who will be left standing when all these electric companies start consolidating.



Dodge is still crap.  I tried to warn them, but 3 family members have gone through 7 lemons in just the last 2 years.  They each got the Charger style.  I have driven several Dodge minivans and they, too are crap.

First person - 2018 demo with 3,000 miles.  Over next 2,500 mi, two ECMs, failure of something to do with injection system, and a major overheating problem.  Took that one back, substituted with 2019 similar.  One ECM, plus couple of injection system events.  They saw the trend early and changed faster.  Went to another 2019, same scenario.  Kinda stubborn, but REALLY wanted a Charger for some reason.  This spread over about 1 year.   Got out of that and bought a Buick.  Been driving that one for over 2 years no problems at all.  (Buick also would not have been my first choice, but seems to work.)  They apparently got in on the tail end of that 4.5 million Dodge recall for cruise control...they didn't have that problem but probably got it fixed before broke.

Second person - 2020 Charger, new.  Injection problems.  Overheating problems.  Took it back and got another 2020.  One injection system issue - don't know the details.  Transmission was slipping after just a few hundred miles, but they got that fixed.  Since then, no major issues other than body trim type stuff for almost one year!

Third person - 2019 Charger.  Transmission problem to start.  Again fixed by dealer.  Dodge has a LOT of transmission problems because they build carp!  Especially in the minivans!  Emission problem - not sure but I think it was O2 sensor and MAF related.  Finally fixed after 4 trips to dealer.  No major issues for last 8 months or so.

Almost forgot - a fourth one bought a well used Durango in the spring.  Has been in shop about 6 times so far.  About 90,000 miles so it is to be expected it would self-destruct about now.

Ergonomics - I rent cars regularly, and in the last 2 years have had Dodge Minivan three times. (Plus two Toyotas, 2 Nissans, Subaru, F-150, etc)  Massively uncomfortable seating.  Sloppy assembly - body parts fit.  One had some "bubbling" paint - excessive orange peel - that luckily I took pics of, cause the rental company mentioned it like I had done something.  Came from factory like that.

F-150 was good enough - rides like a truck, like it should (my daily driver is an OLD Dodge RAM diesel - 1,000,000 mile engine in a 100,000 mile truck!  Truck ride.  Their trannys were crap back then, too, but have a VERY good transmission guy who made it great...180,000 miles more so far and still running strong!)

GM has a couple of staples that are decent - 6.0 liter in a Silverado is VERY good!  Mileage sucks big time, but engine will do the work you need.  Other than that, it's GM... Meh...!  Uninspired design, lackluster everything else.   And does anyone ever LOOK at the front end of GM trucks??   Geez...what a bu$$ ugly mess that is!!


Nissan anything - I have been lucky to find two very good mechanics/shops that do all the work that I can't do.  That is mostly transmission work when needed, but occasionally they are very cost effective for me to have do the work - they can 'save' me several hours of my labor at a very reasonable cost!   Have been looking at moving into a new style of vehicle for me - want a Sprinter van, but that means Mercedes parts and service.  And there is NO Mercedes dealer in NE OK who works on Sprinters!   And Freightliner is being squeezed out of that vehicle line and the local dealer also doesn't work on them.  So either go to Edmond, or get and import shop here to do what they can without proper information/equipment for working on them.  Sucks.   So that leaves Ford Transit - want a high roof - and those are a rolling catastrophe!   One tiny Ex; they have one little coolant return line that goes out every 50,000 miles or so.  Costs about $100 for the part.  BUT - the first time on many of them requires a new coolant reservoir tank that takes the part cost up over $400.  Plus several hours labor.   It's a dam radiator hose for crying out loud!  What is that clown show thinking??

Anyway, so fell back to minivan idea for reasonable cost and available service.  Called both my guys and told them what had in mind - asking which minivan is best or what they see least problems with - and before I could even finish asking the question, BOTH said, "Don't get a Nissan....anything!"   Separate guys.  Different shops.  Different days.  Identical words!



I really want an electric car for daily driver, but am not ready to do that yet.  Don't want Prius, cause still have gas engine maintenance.  If I were forced to buy today, there is only one choice and it is Tesla.  I am also very curious and interested to see what happens!   The way things are going, I may end up with an electric big truck before getting a car!   That would suit me just fine, too!  All of the mockup semi-trucks I have seen so far look good and I could live with any of those.




















Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on November 16, 2020, 08:31:44 am
I totally agree Dodge transmissions are a problem however it does seem like most manufacturers are running into issues due to the insane complexity that an 8-10spd automatic transmission is by nature. For the most part it's due to they run too hot, or at least aren't cooled properly though the software sure seems to cause plenty of bugs however that's normally an easy fix. Now that being said we have an 03 Wrangler since new and it's transmission (45rle) is fine though it is starting to slip a touch when it's really cold out. After 17 years I can't really complain and it's not an expensive fix. My father-in-law is on his second Ram and the transmissions in both of those have been fine and I think he has 500k miles between the two (lots of u-joints however but expected with as much as he tows). He also has a newer Charger - I think 2017 - no problems at all. We had a 1st-gen Dodge Neon that we bought new and in 100k miles it's only issues it had was a loose ground in the gauge cluster and a bad fan relay and both were fixed under warranty. Of course there are some terrible dealerships out there who just can't figure out problems and throw the same parts at it over and over again to no avail.

Your Ford Transit story of the cheap part that's expensive to replace reminds me of a buddy who had a shop that worked on BMWs - newer BMW had a headlight go out (not warranty). It literally was 7 hours labor to replace as they're designed to not fail (ha ha ha) so you have to disassemble so much of the front end to even access it. That being said, BMWs are terrible cars that should only be leased.

Like you said, right now if you want an all-electric vehicle Tesla is the only choice. The problem is being the only game in town seems to be Tesla's business plan. They still are excellent motors and battery packs with mediocre cars loosely bolted to them and if the sales of the Porsche Taycan is any indication, the general public feels the same way. I'm just glad Tulsa didn't get the factory. It would have been short-term great and long-term terrible.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Vision 2025 on November 16, 2020, 10:17:44 am
I drove by what I was told is the Tesla site last week just off the Turnpike by the Austin airport and wow its BIG with site work underway.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2020, 09:05:07 pm
I totally agree Dodge transmissions are a problem however it does seem like most manufacturers are running into issues due to the insane complexity that an 8-10spd automatic transmission is by nature. For the most part it's due to they run too hot, or at least aren't cooled properly though the software sure seems to cause plenty of bugs however that's normally an easy fix. Now that being said we have an 03 Wrangler since new and it's transmission (45rle) is fine though it is starting to slip a touch when it's really cold out. After 17 years I can't really complain and it's not an expensive fix. My father-in-law is on his second Ram and the transmissions in both of those have been fine and I think he has 500k miles between the two (lots of u-joints however but expected with as much as he tows). He also has a newer Charger - I think 2017 - no problems at all. We had a 1st-gen Dodge Neon that we bought new and in 100k miles it's only issues it had was a loose ground in the gauge cluster and a bad fan relay and both were fixed under warranty. Of course there are some terrible dealerships out there who just can't figure out problems and throw the same parts at it over and over again to no avail.

Your Ford Transit story of the cheap part that's expensive to replace reminds me of a buddy who had a shop that worked on BMWs - newer BMW had a headlight go out (not warranty). It literally was 7 hours labor to replace as they're designed to not fail (ha ha ha) so you have to disassemble so much of the front end to even access it. That being said, BMWs are terrible cars that should only be leased.

Like you said, right now if you want an all-electric vehicle Tesla is the only choice. The problem is being the only game in town seems to be Tesla's business plan. They still are excellent motors and battery packs with mediocre cars loosely bolted to them and if the sales of the Porsche Taycan is any indication, the general public feels the same way. I'm just glad Tulsa didn't get the factory. It would have been short-term great and long-term terrible.


Got my tranny rebuilt and it became bullet proof!   I know a guy, if you need one....   Yeah, anything more than 6 speeds in an automatic is just mental masturbation and ignorant!

The rest of the truck is one of those love/hate things.  I love my truck, but I hate Dodge for the corners they cut on this POS.!   Right now I am in the middle of the dash, and the sleazy plastic they used is literally crumbling into small pieces every time I pick something up.  Instead of ABS, they used something that saved them about 4 cents each!   Have been talking to other owners, ALL of whom share the problems, and the basic approach is to save as many pieces as possible, buy large bottles of JB Weld epoxy, and glue them together best you can like with a jigsaw puzzle.  Eventually, there will be enough epoxy that it will hold the crumbs together and kinda function as an instrument panel.!   And of course, Dodge no longer makes the parts.   Luckily there are good sources for dash and bezel.

Neon - 95' to '99 - almost a real car.  They were no where near the pile of carp that Fiat has done to the company.  But the start of the process could be "sensed".  1952 Chrysler was a pretty good car...not quite as good as '52 Chevy, but not horrible.   And the 1939 Dodge pickups were very cool...my brother had one for about 25 years and I never could get him to sell it to me!  Would love to have it, even now!

BMW is carp.  Nissan is carp.  Later Mercedes same.  Jaguar?  Joke of the day award.  So many horrible cars out there! 

Tundra is probably where I will go for next truck, and if need more towing power, will buy a used Freightliner.  Half the price of a new pickup, same fuel mileage - better than gas, can pull 50,000 lbs!  Will get 500,000 miles - much more than I will drive, I bet.  Much less depreciation from that point than any pickup ever made.  And can sit above all the traffic to see what is happening!






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2020, 09:06:39 pm
Quick little hijack here - Langford lives up to the reputation of standard Republican....changing direction and not doing what is right.  Of course.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/james-lankford-joe-biden-intelligence-briefings-184220331.html


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 19, 2020, 08:44:55 pm
Just found this!   Am SO hoping we get a truck factory here!  I will be trying very hard to get a job there delivering trucks to buyers!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foy2FX_g7GU



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on December 08, 2020, 09:39:21 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/08/elon-musk-confirms-he-moved-to-texas.html


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 10, 2020, 11:23:37 pm
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/08/elon-musk-confirms-he-moved-to-texas.html


No where near as smart as I used to think he was.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on January 07, 2021, 04:03:26 pm
Tesla’s Delayed Semi Truck Tests Elon Musk’s Ability to Scale Up
Silicon Valley car maker set bar higher after the pandemic hardly dented growth plans

https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-delayed-semi-truck-tests-elon-musks-ability-to-scale-up-11606568448


Tesla Receives Semi Truck Order Worth Up to $100 Million: Report
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/tesla-receives-semi-truck-order-worth-up-to-100-million-report/2392377/


Tesla's new gigafactory begins to take shape; see the video
https://olhardigital.com.br/en/2020/12/30/noticias/nova-gigafabrica-da-tesla-comeca-a-tomar-forma-veja-o-video/?gfetch=2020%2F12%2F30%2Fnews%2Ftesla%27s-new-gigafabrica-begins-to-take-shape-watch-the-video%2F

Tesla Going Full-Blast On Gigafactory Push To Realize 2021 Objectives
https://www.btimesonline.com/articles/144675/20210106/tesla-going-full-blast-on-gigafactory-push-to-realize-2021-objectives.htm


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on January 07, 2021, 04:15:47 pm
^ All for Tesla's growth and the growth of the electric vehicle industry. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on January 09, 2021, 10:48:29 am
More Tesla news:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/01/tesla-hiring-battery-engineers-in-north-carolina-semi-truck-engineers-in-nevada/



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 09, 2021, 08:45:35 pm
Tesla’s Delayed Semi Truck Tests Elon Musk’s Ability to Scale Up
Silicon Valley car maker set bar higher after the pandemic hardly dented growth plans

https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-delayed-semi-truck-tests-elon-musks-ability-to-scale-up-11606568448


Tesla Receives Semi Truck Order Worth Up to $100 Million: Report
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/tesla-receives-semi-truck-order-worth-up-to-100-million-report/2392377/




Looks to me like Tesla Semi vs Nikola is going to be kind of like Freightliner vs Peterbilt.   Volume production of decent quality truck vs smaller production of a decent quality truck that has a lot of hype attached giving it "cult-like" status for no real difference in quality or performance (Peterbilt).

I would take either one....!



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on February 27, 2021, 11:36:05 am
Per Tesla's 4th Q and FY 2020 Update, "Tesla semi deliveries will also begin in 2021."  If that's the case, it would seem they will be producing those semis at one of their existing or currently-under-construction factories (as they have been indicating all along), not in a new unannounced imaginary gigafactory.

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/1LRLZK_2020_Q4_Quarterly_Update_Deck_-_Searchable_LVA2GL.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22TSLA-Q4-2020-Update.pdf%22


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on March 04, 2021, 07:57:33 pm
SpaceX says it is building a factory in Austin, Texas, to design systems that will help make satellite dishes, Wi-Fi routers, and other equipment for its Starlink satellite broadband network. The news comes from a job posting for an automation and controls engineer position flagged in a story Tuesday by local news channel KXAN.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/03/spacex-plans-texas-factory-to-help-make-starlink-dishes-and-wi-fi-routers/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Jacobei on March 16, 2021, 09:03:26 am
Oof.  It was worse than I thought.

https://www.newson6.com/story/604f6cb45157fb0bdd445615/documents-show-tesla-ceo-elon-musk-visited-oklahoma-out-of-respect-in-2020


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on March 16, 2021, 09:27:35 am
For awhile there I thought OK was coming into the light at least a little. We got medical marijuana, updated our alcohol laws, got a few new progressive faces in our representation, etc. It looked like we were ready to start competing on some level with our surrounding states and other backwater states at least.

But the past year has really hammered us right back down into the mud. All the idiot things Stitt has said and done, our horrible legislature, and so many awful news stories that have really destroyed what little good PR we had. People see OK as a smile-hole again, and rightly so to some degree. We are never going to make this an attractive place for modern business unless we fix some glaring issues with our culture, and I'm not sure I see that happening. As the oil industry continues to "evolve", the things that kept us afloat will continue to disappear and we'll have nothing left but small business, regional offices, and things that are only here because we have some degree of critical mass such as a few government offices and hospitals. Forget brining in any big companies anymore. Unless they are simply opening up a distribution center or something, we are off the radar entirely now.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on March 16, 2021, 10:41:38 am
The state government certainly doesn’t do any favors but I think overall the Tulsa region is moving in the right direction.  I’m encouraged how the city has weathered the pandemic and looks poised to make gains this year especially with oil & gas prices back on the rise.  Our industrial workforce is well positioned to grow just need to pull in some more white collar-type jobs as well.  

Look at our neighbors NW Arkansas and OKC, both deal with their respective state governments and overall negative association with OK and AR yet both are still steadily growing and attracting new businesses.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 16, 2021, 11:22:20 am
I don't see anything we didn't already know. Musk made it clear he was only visiting out of respect. I mean he even tweeted that almost word for word.

The point was to make them serious consider us for the next plant. I don't know if really anyone thought we had a legitimate shot against Austin given how far along they were on planning that facility. We were likely the back up just in case their tax incentives and other requests happened to get denied.

From what I've heard is that Tesla was very surprised at what they found out about Tulsa through the process and that we'd been on a short list in the future on any projects that weren't location specific (for example they want an east coast plant at some point for easier shipping/delivery to those markets and Tulsa would serve no purpose for that).

The point in the marketing blitz too was not just for Tesla, but as an opportunity to show ourselves to other companies who were watching.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Rattle Trap on March 16, 2021, 06:42:46 pm
For awhile there I thought OK was coming into the light at least a little. We got medical marijuana, updated our alcohol laws, got a few new progressive faces in our representation, etc. It looked like we were ready to start competing on some level with our surrounding states and other backwater states at least.

But the past year has really hammered us right back down into the mud. All the idiot things Stitt has said and done, our horrible legislature, and so many awful news stories that have really destroyed what little good PR we had. People see OK as a smile-hole again, and rightly so to some degree. We are never going to make this an attractive place for modern business unless we fix some glaring issues with our culture, and I'm not sure I see that happening. As the oil industry continues to "evolve", the things that kept us afloat will continue to disappear and we'll have nothing left but small business, regional offices, and things that are only here because we have some degree of critical mass such as a few government offices and hospitals. Forget brining in any big companies anymore. Unless they are simply opening up a distribution center or something, we are off the radar entirely now.

Completely disagree. Musk literally tweeted back then that he was visiting out of respect, and the state took advantage of the publicity and potential for a future Tesla plant.

Also, in case you haven't paid attention, Musk is leaving California, eventually bringing the rest of Tesla with him, because of their terrible progressive policy. HP left, Oracle is leaving, and many more for the same reasons.

And idk about Tulsa itself, but the suburbs are being flooded with out of state people moving here. I live in a new construction neighborhood and I'd say a third of my neighbors are from out of state. I've discussed with multiple home builders and have gotten the same story from them. I work with dozens of people from the coasts who have moved here for work a decided to stay for the very culture that you think is so bad.

Theres a tech giant with their second largest data center in the world an hour east of here staffed with hundreds of East and West coasters who thought it was worth while to live here. The list of examples goes on....

So I'd rather preserve our "backwards" culture because while wokeness is taking over the public square, people and companies are quietly moving to places that are more conservative.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 16, 2021, 09:28:21 pm

Also, in case you haven't paid attention, Musk is leaving California, eventually bringing the rest of Tesla with him, because of their terrible progressive policy. HP left, Oracle is leaving, and many more for the same reasons.


LOL! It's funny when people say crap like that, sorry. You're so wrong. The only reason Texas is getting so many relocations is primarily because corporations are greedy. They would rather save some money on taxes than have any sort of loyalty to places and people that made them great companies. Want some good examples? Where did all the oil & gas companies in Tulsa go? Houston. That wasn't because of 'progressive policies' in Oklahoma it was because the CEO's wanted bigger bonuses for themselves and corporate raiders gave zero f***s about employees just to make a few million bucks (thanks T. Boone - from an OSU alum).

There's a grass is always greener on the other side thing here from both conservatives and liberals anymore. Texas is as big of a s***hole as California, sorry to burst your bubble there. It's not some magical dreamland of conservative policy. You think California has had to raise taxes a lot? Wait until the debt bomb goes off in Texas in about 20 years. You can see this already in cities like Dallas - drive around east Dallas for example and tell me how many new tires you need after 15 minutes. They were days away from bankruptcy within the past 3 years too multiple times. Their streetlights are 30+ years old through the entire city and they have no money to replace them. If you can't see what future Texas has then you're not paying attention. They are in the sugar high phase right now and you've seen glimpses of the disaster of conservative policies in Texas too (hello ERCOT/power issues of last month of what complete deregulation gets you - hint, it's not much different than over regulation like California). The only reason CEO's and companies are turning the other way is because they can pocket more money right now by making that move to Texas with having less income taxes to pay and they could careless where anything will be in 10-20 years. At that point when Texas devolves into a mess infrastructure and fiscal wise, there will be another state in the waiting just like Texas is today to start poaching all these companies from there too and they'll abandon ship in a hot second just like they always have been since this cycle of greed really kicked off in the 80s. It's an endless cycle and Texas is just the popular kid of today, give it a decade.

Frankly, if Oklahoma could figure out a way to position itself in the middle between a California and a Texas, we'd all be better off. Frankly too many people are blinded by what's happening in Texas and think we should jump off the cliff with them with no parachute. We'd be better off looking at smaller states like Utah, Colorado, Minnesota, North Dakota, etc. and cherry picking what they do well on both the conservative and liberal sides. Polarization is dangerous because you tend to loose any sense of reasonableness.

Moderate growth isn't a bad thing - I would by far prefer that over what you see in the bigger cities in Texas. I'd like to see Tulsa kick it up a bit growth wise but there a point in which it becomes a bad thing too, just like the opposite in cities like Detroit.   


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 19, 2021, 09:40:15 pm



Also, in case you haven't paid attention, Musk is leaving California, eventually bringing the rest of Tesla with him, because of their terrible progressive policy. HP left, Oracle is leaving, and many more for the same reasons.

And idk about Tulsa itself, but the suburbs are being flooded with out of state people moving here. I live in a new construction neighborhood and I'd say a third of my neighbors are from out of state. I've discussed with multiple home builders and have gotten the same story from them. I work with dozens of people from the coasts who have moved here for work a decided to stay for the very culture that you think is so bad.

Theres a tech giant with their second largest data center in the world an hour east of here staffed with hundreds of East and West coasters who thought it was worth while to live here. The list of examples goes on....

So I'd rather preserve our "backwards" culture because while wokeness is taking over the public square, people and companies are quietly moving to places that are more conservative.


Musk isn't leaving CA any time soon.  They just got permits to make the 64,000 sq ft tent a permanent structure.  Will be many years before they shut that down.

He has the added burden of proving he has changed residence - selling his houses is not sufficient if the "center" of his life is in CA, then he is a resident for any practical....meaning tax....purposes.  That isn't going to be easy in his particular case.

Out of state people have been moving here with jobs for many decades.  I have worked with 25-30 who came in the early 70's through the mid 2000's.  They sold modest little cracker box houses where they were for a few hundred thousand dollars and came here and got McMansions.  Of those, about 1/3 went back "home" when they retired, since they were able to save up here for the return trip.  10% died.  The rest either stayed here or moved to Arkansas - about half and half.

Google does have a few hundred in Pryor facility but don't think the number of immigrants is in the hundreds yet, as of the last time I talked to people there.  That was almost two years ago, though, so could be more now.  But you also have to look at the overall google picture - there are about 1,600 jobs open at google with 2 shown to be at Pryor.  It is a big box full of servers that doesn't really need that many people.   

There is a lot going on over in that area other than google, too!   There is a fairly new toilet paper plant - HUGE building! - close by in Inola that must have hundreds of people working there, based on the number of cars in their parking lot!




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on April 27, 2021, 11:12:14 am

Musk isn't leaving CA any time soon.  They just got permits to make the 64,000 sq ft tent a permanent structure.  Will be many years before they shut that down.

He has the added burden of proving he has changed residence - selling his houses is not sufficient if the "center" of his life is in CA, then he is a resident for any practical....meaning tax....purposes.  That isn't going to be easy in his particular case.

In reality, it actually is pretty easy to change your residence, and by all accounts, it seems Musk has already done it.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on April 27, 2021, 11:16:44 am
Tesla's 1st quarter report is out and they reiterated their plan to start producing semis in 2021. And still no construction or even site selection for a new factory to do so.  Could it be that they will produce the semi in their Nevada and Texas factories?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on April 27, 2021, 11:45:08 am
Tesla's 1st quarter report is out and they reiterated their plan to start producing semis in 2021. And still no construction or even site selection for a new factory to do so.  Could it be that they will produce the semi in their Nevada and Texas factories?

They also started building the Y model in California and then are moving a large part of production to Austin. Companies never expand do they... nope. Then again, you know everything right. There's also a good chance Tesla is bankrupt in a year or two, who knows. Elon is erratic. Austin isn't their last expansion if they keep growing, period. That's the entire point you won't let die.

If Tesla happens to become as big (production wise) as Ford, GM, etc... tell us ole wise one. Where will they build all these cars, semi, trucks? I'm sure they can fit everything in those two places in Nevada and Austin right? Seems logical.

As a city, we should never keep in touch or court expanding companies to stay on their radar. That's worked wonders for us in the last several decades.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on April 27, 2021, 01:46:51 pm
As a city, we should never keep in touch or court expanding companies to stay on their radar. That's worked wonders for us in the last several decades.

I agree with this. There is always hope for us to woo Tesla back some day, given their current rate of expansion. Tulsa still has a lot going for it, and a port at that.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on April 27, 2021, 03:06:10 pm
They also started building the Y model in California and then are moving a large part of production to Austin. Companies never expand do they... nope. Then again, you know everything right. There's also a good chance Tesla is bankrupt in a year or two, who knows. Elon is erratic. Austin isn't their last expansion if they keep growing, period. That's the entire point you won't let die.

If Tesla happens to become as big (production wise) as Ford, GM, etc... tell us ole wise one. Where will they build all these cars, semi, trucks? I'm sure they can fit everything in those two places in Nevada and Austin right? Seems logical.

As a city, we should never keep in touch or court expanding companies to stay on their radar. That's worked wonders for us in the last several decades.

No one has suggested that Austin is their last expansion. Of course Tulsa should continue to try to court expanding companies.

We were told earlier in this thread that Tesla had "announced" that they would be building another Gigafactory, this time for the Semi and Roadster.  That was false when it was written and it remains false today.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Oil Capital on May 19, 2021, 05:51:02 pm
https://electrek.co/2021/03/30/tesla-semi-production-line-new-nevada-building-electric-trucks-per-week/

Also in the article:  "Of course, the goal is for much higher production once the program moves to Gigafactory Austin and Tesla can reach high volume production of 4680 battery cells."

Hmmmm....


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on May 20, 2021, 08:53:16 am
Tesla needs to focus on either building cars and trucks, building semis, or building batteries. They're too small of a company to be fighting on so many fronts but that's Musk's hubris for ya. Once the money from carbon credits dries up over the next two years (where they make their money), they're going to have to rely on their vehicles to make money (which they never have).


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 21, 2021, 08:19:34 pm
There is so much wringing of hands in this state and lengthy discussions on this board about why Oklahoma just can't seem to compete to get the "big score" of companies to come here.  And in every case, there are a long list of factors that enter into that discussion.  All of which are dismissed, ignored, and in general swept under the rug so we don't have to actually deal with stuff.

And just a few days ago, the pathetic Oklahoma legislature passed and Stitt signed a bill that IS our latest National Embarrassment.

They made it ILLEGAL to teach the truth in any public school from K-12 to University level.  Under penalty of civil lawsuit as well as criminal action.

Good job, Oklahoma!  Racing to the bottom at breakneck speed every single time!


Gee, I wonder why we aren't taken seriously....?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 22, 2021, 12:24:28 am
Remember the Tesla site was located at 412 and the Creek Turnpike.  It just was announced OK and AR want to designate US 412 as a future interstate connecting I-35 to I-49 through Tulsa.  Would this be I-50?  I still wish we could get US 75 upgraded to I-45 to Dallas all the way to Galveston.

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 22, 2021, 10:27:51 am
Remember the Tesla site was located at 412 and the Creek Turnpike.  It just was announced OK and AR want to designate US 412 as a future interstate connecting I-35 to I-49 through Tulsa.  Would this be I-50?  I still wish we could get US 75 upgraded to I-45 to Dallas all the way to Galveston.

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html)

I guess that would complete the conversion of 412 to a toll road from I-35 to I-49.

Why I-50 would be available:
https://i50.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-there-is-no-interstate-50.html


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Hoss on May 23, 2021, 09:03:37 am
Remember the Tesla site was located at 412 and the Creek Turnpike.  It just was announced OK and AR want to designate US 412 as a future interstate connecting I-35 to I-49 through Tulsa.  Would this be I-50?  I still wish we could get US 75 upgraded to I-45 to Dallas all the way to Galveston.

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/inhofe-arkansas-senators-push-to-get-interstate-designation-for-stretch-of-u-s-412/article_b9bf9be2-ba65-11eb-8c81-e3c69146bc72.html)

The biggest upgrade needed will be the stretch from West Siloam to Springdale.  All of that as it is currently is at-grade with multiple intersections.  The non-toll sections west of the Turnpike start are not so difficult to upgrade as most of that road is currently four lane but there will need to be changes to the access control for sure.  That stretch starting in Siloam east to Springdale can be hellish during standard rush hours.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 23, 2021, 12:30:51 pm
The biggest upgrade needed will be the stretch from West Siloam to Springdale.  All of that as it is currently is at-grade with multiple intersections.  The non-toll sections west of the Turnpike start are not so difficult to upgrade as most of that road is currently four lane but there will need to be changes to the access control for sure.  That stretch starting in Siloam east to Springdale can be hellish during standard rush hours.

Yep Arkansas will have the most challenging and expensive portion which is probably why they want to upgrade to an interstate so the Feds can help pay for it.  Having a fully limited access interstate from Tulsa to I-49 would easily shave off 15-20 min. from trips to Springdale and Fayetteville.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 23, 2021, 01:10:02 pm
Yep Arkansas will have the most challenging and expensive portion which is probably why they want to upgrade to an interstate so the Feds can help pay for it.  Having a fully limited access interstate from Tulsa to I-49 would easily shave off 15-20 min. from trips to Springdale and Fayetteville.  

I believe there's been a corridor in Arkansas that was planned as an interstate for a while now that would go from the Memphis area through Jonesboro to NWA so it seems to make sense that it would continue along 412. I believe the funding has been hard to come by to complete the section from Jonesboro to NWA given the terrain, the portion that's been done is I-555. Arkansas is struggling just to finish the souther portion of I-49 south of Ft Smith for the same reason, it's expensive with that terrain.

If we invest money into a new interstate along this corridor my only wish is that they allocate right of way to rail and make it multimodal - having commuter/regional rail running along the right of way of a new interstate would make the investment more reasonable. For most of the right of way the rail could go faster than cars too on flat and uncurved sections so you could likely have a train capable of 100+ mph on many portions, if you could get it to average about 90-100 mph you'd have a 60 min trip between DT Tulsa and Springdale via rail.

Do the same going west and connect Tulsa to Stillwater via 412/the new interstate corridor and from there you aren't far from the Amtrak corridor between OKC and Wichita and all of a sudden we'd have rail connections to NWA, OKC and Wichita plus Stillwater which could be important to growing OSU more in Tulsa and Stillwater if you could get back and forth in 45 to 60 mins via rail. Football games, basketball, etc. I bet you'd be able to sell a lot of tickets out of Tulsa for that connection if it was fast enough and enough frequency. Given the terrain is a lot flatter going west with the right of way along 412 you could probably get an average speed over 100mph and easily get a 45 min travel time between DT Tulsa and Stillwater. A connector to the Amtrak corridor west from Stillwater would be about 20 miles (could just extend the Turnpike spur to I-35 too and make that multimodal as well) and from Stillwater to DT OKC would be 70-ish mile route (maybe another 45 min trip if the rail lines were upgraded all the way into OKC too). That'd be around 140 miles from DT Tulsa to DT OKC via Stillwater versus the I-44 corridor which would be about 100 miles. Wouldn't add that much time to the trip and frankly would probably be a much more valuable rail corridor that way then along the Turner Turnpike which doesn't have as much right of way as 412 and is likely to never get federal funding for any type of rail. Frankly the Turnpike Authority has worked hard to keep rail from that corridor given the Turner is their cash cow that supports the rest of the system and they'd rather 6 lane it all the way between the two cities than ever see rail along that route too.   


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 23, 2021, 04:50:49 pm
I guess that would complete the conversion of 412 to a toll road from I-35 to I-49.

Why I-50 would be available:
https://i50.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-there-is-no-interstate-50.html

May be a 'sign' of things to come:
https://iowahighwayends.net/blog/2015/04/i-41-official-in-wisconsin/

I always loved this route because they had tunnels where we had fly-overs and elevated roads (which might be an idea to fix 244's bisection of Greenwood).


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: swake on May 23, 2021, 05:16:48 pm
I believe there's been a corridor in Arkansas that was planned as an interstate for a while now that would go from the Memphis area through Jonesboro to NWA so it seems to make sense that it would continue along 412. I believe the funding has been hard to come by to complete the section from Jonesboro to NWA given the terrain, the portion that's been done is I-555. Arkansas is struggling just to finish the souther portion of I-49 south of Ft Smith for the same reason, it's expensive with that terrain.

If we invest money into a new interstate along this corridor my only wish is that they allocate right of way to rail and make it multimodal - having commuter/regional rail running along the right of way of a new interstate would make the investment more reasonable. For most of the right of way the rail could go faster than cars too on flat and uncurved sections so you could likely have a train capable of 100+ mph on many portions, if you could get it to average about 90-100 mph you'd have a 60 min trip between DT Tulsa and Springdale via rail.

Do the same going west and connect Tulsa to Stillwater via 412/the new interstate corridor and from there you aren't far from the Amtrak corridor between OKC and Wichita and all of a sudden we'd have rail connections to NWA, OKC and Wichita plus Stillwater which could be important to growing OSU more in Tulsa and Stillwater if you could get back and forth in 45 to 60 mins via rail. Football games, basketball, etc. I bet you'd be able to sell a lot of tickets out of Tulsa for that connection if it was fast enough and enough frequency. Given the terrain is a lot flatter going west with the right of way along 412 you could probably get an average speed over 100mph and easily get a 45 min travel time between DT Tulsa and Stillwater. A connector to the Amtrak corridor west from Stillwater would be about 20 miles (could just extend the Turnpike spur to I-35 too and make that multimodal as well) and from Stillwater to DT OKC would be 70-ish mile route (maybe another 45 min trip if the rail lines were upgraded all the way into OKC too). That'd be around 140 miles from DT Tulsa to DT OKC via Stillwater versus the I-44 corridor which would be about 100 miles. Wouldn't add that much time to the trip and frankly would probably be a much more valuable rail corridor that way then along the Turner Turnpike which doesn't have as much right of way as 412 and is likely to never get federal funding for any type of rail. Frankly the Turnpike Authority has worked hard to keep rail from that corridor given the Turner is their cash cow that supports the rest of the system and they'd rather 6 lane it all the way between the two cities than ever see rail along that route too.  

I wouldn't think that any new highway construction would be needed west of Tulsa. East of Tulsa my guess would be the state would only add some bridges and a few exits to convert the existing divided highway to limited access. The only new road and right of way Oklahoma would need to build would be a bypass around West Siloam Springs. Arkansas needs are much higher.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 24, 2021, 12:19:42 am
I wouldn't think that any new highway construction would be needed west of Tulsa. East of Tulsa my guess would be the state would only add some bridges and a few exits to convert the existing divided highway to limited access. The only new road and right of way Oklahoma would need to build would be a bypass around West Siloam Springs. Arkansas needs are much higher.

There'd still have to be some significant upgrades made from the far west side of Sand Spring all the way to where the turnpike begins near Cleveland. Most of that stretch does not meet interstate standards. The full part of the turnpike you wouldn't have to do much to but that part had a pretty significant amount of right away already that could likely facilitate a rail line along it.

You'd also have to upgrade a lot of 412 from the Will Rogers interchange out to where Mid America is, that area doesn't meet interstate standards either. Arkansas you'd have to upgrade the full portion from the state line all the way into Springdale. Given the amount of miles you'd have to upgrade between Tulsa and NWA it would make sense to build it where it could become multimodal. Same with the portions we had to upgrade to the west.

___

Just a thought too, if this ever did happen - I'd far prefer the Gilcrease loop be upgraded to an interstate and then decommission I-244 through downtown. It would add maybe 3-5 minutes to someone's drive going from NWA to say Stillwater to loop around on the Gilcrease instead of driving straight through downtown. Routing regional traffic away from downtown you could then tear down I-244/412 from Kendall Whittier to Gilcrease Museum Road and turn it into an at-grade boulevard instead. Then redevelop all the right of way that ODOT owns along that corridor. It'd be a win for the turnpike authority too, it'd route a lot more regional traffic along that portion of highway too.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2021, 06:57:00 am
What I did wind up reading in the Arkansas Post-Gazette is that there is plans for a Springdale "north Hwy 412 bypass" that will be built to interstate specifications.  I believe it is partially completed now as AR state hwy 612.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 24, 2021, 10:23:23 am
Just a thought too, if this ever did happen - I'd far prefer the Gilcrease loop be upgraded to an interstate and then decommission I-244 through downtown. It would add maybe 3-5 minutes to someone's drive going from NWA to say Stillwater to loop around on the Gilcrease instead of driving straight through downtown. Routing regional traffic away from downtown you could then tear down I-244/412 from Kendall Whittier to Gilcrease Museum Road and turn it into an at-grade boulevard instead. Then redevelop all the right of way that ODOT owns along that corridor. It'd be a win for the turnpike authority too, it'd route a lot more regional traffic along that portion of highway too.

Best idea I've heard it would be amazing to have 244 as an at-grade boulevard.  Tear down the east leg of the IDL while you're at it extending Madison Ave. north of 15th to 1st Street.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 24, 2021, 12:24:33 pm
Best idea I've heard it would be amazing to have 244 as an at-grade boulevard.  Tear down the east leg of the IDL while you're at it extending Madison Ave. north of 15th to 1st Street.

Or maybe do a "Big Dig" -style underground tunnel for 244, and re-develop the land above.
There has already been discussion of doing something similar to other parts of the IDL.
Hopefully we could learn from Boston's mistakes (and there are quite a few).


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on May 26, 2021, 09:43:07 am
Or maybe do a "Big Dig" -style underground tunnel for 244, and re-develop the land above.
There has already been discussion of doing something similar to other parts of the IDL.
Hopefully we could learn from Boston's mistakes (and there are quite a few).

This is what the Chamber has talked about from a reconciliation standpoint.   You’d drop 244 below grade south of Archer and come back up between Boulder/Denver, with a series of decks capping the resulting canyon. There’s potential money in Biden’s proposed infrastructure project. No engineering has been done. So it’s pie in the sky... but never say never. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 26, 2021, 10:04:13 am
This is what the Chamber has talked about from a reconciliation standpoint.   You’d drop 244 below grade south of Archer and come back up between Boulder/Denver, with a series of decks capping the resulting canyon. There’s potential money in Biden’s proposed infrastructure project. No engineering has been done. So it’s pie in the sky... but never say never.  

Only problem with that is the cost to do that would be astronomical.

A more cost effective option would be to designate the Gilcrease loop as 244 or whatever the new interstate would be between NWA & Tulsa and finish it off as a turnpike all the way from 412 to the Tisdale. Then just turn the former 244/412 corridor from Kendall Whitter through downtown into an at grade boulevard. The traffic that comes through 244 doesn't warrant us having a redundant corridor to the north.

Taking 244 straight through downtown from where the Gilcrease starts now near the airport to the planned interchange in west Tulsa is about 10 miles. Taking the loop if it was finished north from near the airport to hook back into 412 would be about 13.5 miles. You'd only add 3.5 miles to someone's drive which at 65 MPH is not much time. Klyde Warren Park in Dallas is about 0.20 miles in length and cost $110 million - so you're talking $500 million a mile at least to do a tunnel and cap concept (probably way more given how much construction costs have gone up since that was completed). Say you started the tunnel at around Peoria and took it to Denver, that's about 1.4 miles and would cost $750 million at least. Keep in mind too, that was just for the cap portion, the highway was already below grade, so you'd like increase cost twice as much to go from above grade to rebuilding the entire road below grade and adding the cap so you're talking upwards of $1 billion for less than 2 miles.

Versus completing the loop and decommissioning the highway through downtown, which would be closer to $125-150 million based on the cost to do a similar project in Rochester NY recently if you did the same thing between Kendall Whitter and Gilcrease Museum Road which would be 3.5 ish miles - you'd have a far greater impact to the city if you were able to do it to that scale versus just 1-1.5 miles through downtown. Funneling regional traffic onto the Gilcrease would likely give the Turnpike Authority reason to finish the loop to interstate standards all the way too.

Either option would be much better than what we have now, I'm just pessimistic that we'd ever be able to get a billion or more from the Feds to do a cap and tunnel option - the other option is in the realm of reasonable cost wise. The political reality of it happening is another question.  


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on May 26, 2021, 10:34:51 am
I'd rather see the at-grade boulevard replace 244.  If we're doing a cut and cap I'd rather see that done to the BA between Yale and Peoria.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 26, 2021, 11:12:50 am
I'd rather see the at-grade boulevard replace 244.  If we're doing a cut and cap I'd rather see that done to the BA between Yale and Peoria.


When it comes to Greenwood’s future, some here think I-244 — which runs east-west and sits on top of what were once famous cultural hubs, like the Dreamland Theater — should be lowered to a thoroughfare. Others think it should be buried in a tunnel so that the property on top provides new real estate. Many also want to see U.S. 75, which sliced off most of the eastern edge and northern stretch of Greenwood, removed.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tulsa-s-greenwood-neighborhood-found-prosperity-after-1921-massacre-then-n1268455






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 28, 2021, 01:32:17 pm


Other news, Mazzio's offers up 7,000 + free pizzas - 1 to every employee at Tesla in Tulsa.




Not sure why anyone would want to eat Mazzio's, but maybe if all new people to the area, they may not be familiar enough to know about them.

As if bad food, dirty restaurants, and massively too high prices weren't already enough - the managers husband at one of the mid town's was overheard in a conversation referring to an employee as an "f'ing slave'.   Smooth move bad management!






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 28, 2021, 09:40:36 pm
Not sure why anyone would want to eat Mazzio's, but maybe if all new people to the area, they may not be familiar enough to know about them.
As if bad food, dirty restaurants, and massively too high prices weren't already enough - the managers husband at one of the mid town's was overheard in a conversation referring to an employee as an "f'ing slave'.   Smooth move bad management!

Pizza is off my diet.  I like it, but it doesn't like me. :-(


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on May 29, 2021, 01:55:25 pm
As midcentury highways reach the end of their life spans, cities across the country are having to choose whether to rebuild or reconsider them. Instead of moving people in and out of downtown as quickly as possible, (cities are) trying to make downtown a more livable place.

The highway removal and other deconstruction projects are part of a long-term plan for a city still struggling to come back from years of economic and population decline. The big bet: Rebuilding more walkable, bikeable and connected neighborhoods will attract new investment and new residents. And city officials hope it might even reduce car-dependence in the long run.



Can Removing Highways Fix America’s Cities?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 31, 2021, 08:55:28 pm
Pizza is off my diet.  I like it, but it doesn't like me. :-(



We love it!   But there just isn't any fit to eat here.  Have not tried Andolini's in BA, but Owasso was Mazzios with even higher prices.  And Cherry street was bad or at least having a bad day the one time we went there.

We have been making our own and it's getting there!   And we don't put whatever it is that really hammers the stomach!  Very friendly pizza!   Wish I knew what it was so could complain to all of them about it....


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 31, 2021, 09:17:40 pm
We love it!   But there just isn't any fit to eat here.  Have not tried Andolini's in BA, but Owasso was Mazzios with even higher prices.  And Cherry street was bad or at least having a bad day the one time we went there.
We have been making our own and it's getting there!   And we don't put whatever it is that really hammers the stomach!  Very friendly pizza!   Wish I knew what it was so could complain to all of them about it....

Around about 2014, my LDL was 174 and I had frequent problems with heartburn and reflux.  My blood pressure was getting close to bad limits for my pilot's (FAA) physical and I was taking Lisinopril to keep my blood pressure within FAA limits.  I was taking Zantac (actually generic) several times a week.  THEN, I changed my diet to considerably reduce saturated fat and salt.  Within a year, my LDL was under 100 and my blood pressure dropped to a level that I could stop taking blood pressure medicine.  I was also not having heartburn and reflux problems.  I did not change my exercise habit which included a lunch time walk for about 2.4 miles within about 38 minutes in the summer, a bit faster when the weather was cooler.

Unfortunately, I like pizza with lots of cheese, sausage, pepperoni etc.  Also don't need the carbs of the rest of it.

'nuff said.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on May 31, 2021, 10:57:22 pm
We love it!   But there just isn't any fit to eat here.  Have not tried Andolini's in BA, but Owasso was Mazzios with even higher prices.  And Cherry street was bad or at least having a bad day the one time we went there.
We have been making our own and it's getting there!   And we don't put whatever it is that really hammers the stomach!  Very friendly pizza!   Wish I knew what it was so could complain to all of them about it....

One more thing... a friend suggested making my own with cauliflower based pizza crust.  Unfortunately, way too much sodium.  :-(
Ya gotta be careful about so-called healthy alternatives.  If you're not sodium sensitive, go for it.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 01, 2021, 09:42:41 am
One more thing... a friend suggested making my own with cauliflower based pizza crust.  Unfortunately, way too much sodium.  :-(
Ya gotta be careful about so-called healthy alternatives.  If you're not sodium sensitive, go for it.


I am getting ready to plant some early wheat varieties on a scale for home use.  Emmer and Einkorn.  Both are very different from stuff we have available today in the stores.  I absolutely believe a lot of our health problems come from the change to HFCS and the new wheat that started being put into food in the 70's.  Am very skeptical about aluminum - like in anti-perspirants, but since I don't use that type anyway, don't worry about it.

Now I just need a good grain cradle for the scythe....!



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on June 01, 2021, 10:08:52 am
I am getting ready to plant some early wheat varieties on a scale for home use.  Emmer and Einkorn.  Both are very different from stuff we have available today in the stores.  I absolutely believe a lot of our health problems come from the change to HFCS and the new wheat that started being put into food in the 70's.  Am very skeptical about aluminum - like in anti-perspirants, but since I don't use that type anyway, don't worry about it.
Now I just need a good grain cradle for the scythe....!

How much area do you intend to plant?

My two plots of 10' X 15' plus numerous containers, mostly chile peppers but also eggplant and okra, are all I want to take care of.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 02, 2021, 07:04:42 pm
How much area do you intend to plant?

My two plots of 10' X 15' plus numerous containers, mostly chile peppers but also eggplant and okra, are all I want to take care of.


For the wheat?  Maybe 1/4 acre to start total.  Just enough to get much more seed and maybe some flour for bread experimentation.  Have a few family/friends with gluten sensitivity, so going to see if that will help some.  Will keep the two varieties apart in two plots.

For flowers, about 3/4 acre, +/-,  and home veggy garden, about 1/4 acre.  Also putting in about 1/2 acre orchard/vineyard...about half done.  Mostly corn, tomatoes, peppers, okra, and various beans.  Canning and preserving is becoming very big topic around the house.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on June 02, 2021, 11:20:53 pm
For the wheat?  Maybe 1/4 acre to start total.  Just enough to get much more seed and maybe some flour for bread experimentation.  Have a few family/friends with gluten sensitivity, so going to see if that will help some.  Will keep the two varieties apart in two plots.
For flowers, about 3/4 acre, +/-,  and home veggy garden, about 1/4 acre.  Also putting in about 1/2 acre orchard/vineyard...about half done.  Mostly corn, tomatoes, peppers, okra, and various beans.  Canning and preserving is becoming very big topic around the house.

You are much more ambitious than I am.  I wish I could grow some tomatoes but the squirrels get them all, destroying the plants in the process.  :-(

I may need to fill some spots with some beans as some of my peppers and eggplants are having problems waiting to be put in the ground.

I roto-tilled the spots a few weeks ago but it's been too wet to do anything and the weeds are already taking over.  I need to pull weeds or re-roto-till.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on June 03, 2021, 07:56:32 am
You guys know there’s a private message function on this thing?


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on June 03, 2021, 09:41:16 am
You guys know there’s a private message function on this thing?

Sorry for the thread drift.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 03, 2021, 04:51:27 pm
You guys know there’s a private message function on this thing?


Thread drift is always the most fun!

Besides, that Big F***ing Field would be better served with a lot of tomatoes, corn, beans, and okra!   I propose a community garden setup until Elon makes up his mind!  I can provide some tilling with the tractor!

There - no more thread drift!  Back to the main topic....




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Tulsan on June 04, 2021, 08:31:05 am

Thread drift is always the most fun!

Besides, that Big F***ing Field would be better served with a lot of tomatoes, corn, beans, and okra!   I propose a community garden setup until Elon makes up his mind!  I can provide some tilling with the tractor!

There - no more thread drift!  Back to the main topic....




Ha! Well played.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 07, 2021, 01:09:13 pm
Ha! Well played.


Always best when actually true!   Should have something like that.  If not there, then somewhere in town.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on June 07, 2021, 03:14:08 pm
I was getting worried Tesla was going to get in the pizza business  ;D


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 07, 2021, 10:15:29 pm
I was getting worried Tesla was going to get in the pizza business  ;D

Just give it time, you never know.

They are looking into a 'diner' type experience at one of the Tesla charging stations (https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/01/tesla-files-trademark-hinting-at-elon-musks-restaurant-concept-plans/). They're already trademarking stuff. 

I've always felt this is the biggest upcoming opportunity is a modern 'gas' station. QuikTrip would be wise to start planning on a way to build out charging stations or converting some of their locations. If things keep progressing the way it is, in 5-10 years things like QuikTrip will not exist anymore if they are planning on how to adapt.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on June 10, 2021, 12:37:14 am

When it comes to Greenwood’s future, some here think I-244 — which runs east-west and sits on top of what were once famous cultural hubs, like the Dreamland Theater — should be lowered to a thoroughfare. Others think it should be buried in a tunnel so that the property on top provides new real estate. Many also want to see U.S. 75, which sliced off most of the eastern edge and northern stretch of Greenwood, removed.


If the US 75 east IDL leg was removed, we could reclaim the Midland Valley right of way and put in an electric powered, steel wheel, rail guided trolley line to the Gathering Place.  There would be some hiccups along the south leg of the IDL but it's not impossible.  If the right of way is wide enough, we could keep the hiking trail. Look up trolley parks from the turn of the 19th to 20th Centuries.  No need to turn the Gathering Place to a full fledged amusement part though.  A trolley would remove the need for a lot of parking at the Gathering Place for folks living in a revitalized downtown Tulsa.  An electric trolley could help with Climate Change too. 

In any case, repopulating downtown will require better public transportation unless "you" want huge parking garages and continued dependence on the automobile. Better public transit might make Tulsa more attractive to the younger generations.

Regional rail transit was a hot topic several years ago.  It needs to be revisited.  Longer infrastructure and equipment life combined with lower operating costs can offset the higher initial cost of rail compared to rubber tired buses which use publicly funded streets.  Same old situation of the "transit holocaust". (General Motors, Firestone tires and Standard Oil.)

Electric cars have a better carbon footprint than petroleum powered cars, but not a zero footprint depending on the source of electricity. There are also some issues regarding manufacturing, battery disposal/recycling etc. Electric cars still need a place to park.  I don't see Tulsans giving up personally owned transportation without significant improvement to public transit.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on June 10, 2021, 07:34:03 am
Just give it time, you never know.

They are looking into a 'diner' type experience at one of the Tesla charging stations (https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/01/tesla-files-trademark-hinting-at-elon-musks-restaurant-concept-plans/). They're already trademarking stuff. 

I've always felt this is the biggest upcoming opportunity is a modern 'gas' station. QuikTrip would be wise to start planning on a way to build out charging stations or converting some of their locations. If things keep progressing the way it is, in 5-10 years things like QuikTrip will not exist anymore if they are planning on how to adapt.

I still don't see Tesla existing in their current form 2-3 years from now but, hey, if they think selling MuskBurgers is the key to profitability that should be an interesting pivot  ;D

I'm all for electric cars but I think we're more in the 20-30 year range when it comes to electric cars really having enough market share that gas stations will be adding charging stations en masse (maybe a little sooner if solid-state batteries pan out). Here's a great article going over the infrastructure and cost issue roadblocks that gas stations are running into when adding even a single charging station - https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/26/ev-charging-gas-stations/
It should be interesting to see how PSO, who balks at spending the money on burying power lines, reacts to the costs of increasing their output 300-400% to support future electrical demand.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 10, 2021, 10:13:16 am
I still don't see Tesla existing in their current form 2-3 years from now but, hey, if they think selling MuskBurgers is the key to profitability that should be an interesting pivot  ;D

I'm all for electric cars but I think we're more in the 20-30 year range when it comes to electric cars really having enough market share that gas stations will be adding charging stations en masse (maybe a little sooner if solid-state batteries pan out). Here's a great article going over the infrastructure and cost issue roadblocks that gas stations are running into when adding even a single charging station - https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/26/ev-charging-gas-stations/
It should be interesting to see how PSO, who balks at spending the money on burying power lines, reacts to the costs of increasing their output 300-400% to support future electrical demand.

I generally thought the same for a while, what changed my mind on how much sooner it could happen is when California pushed up the timeline on requiring electric cars only be sold. Given their size they can pretty much force the hand of the auto industry between them and NY.

It baffles me the amnesia that the fanboys of Tesla have when it comes to how the electric that charges their car comes from? Like that entire conversation never seems to happen. The US is not prepared for a mass conversion to electric cars, not even if they pass the infrastructure bill. Most of their cars are still being powered by fossil fuel, it's just happening at the power plant rather than filling up your car with it. I'm not sure what the difference is outside of you can pretend that you're sustainably minded with an electric car. It seems to me it would have been better for us to convert to CNG for a few decades and work on upgrading power systems towards clean/sustainable power systems and then convert to electric cars and work on better batteries for car like you mentioned.

Even if we start converted faster to electric cars Tesla could still very well be bankrupt and gone in a few years. I'm still not sold they are viable long term especially given the quality issues of late and Elon's erratic behavior. He should have probably focused on making sure bumpers don't fly off cars and water flood into sunroofs before he tries to fly to Mars. Things like the Bitcoin investment too, odd moves like that could very well sink the company over night at some point (I'm own Bitcoin, but it was a dumb move for someone like Tesla to do what they did as a public car company). They are also in the position to possibly be the larger company in the world in a decade too. Given their charging networks, imagine Ford combined with 7/11 & Love's and a few other companies and that could very well be where Tesla end's up.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 21, 2021, 04:08:07 pm
I still don't see Tesla existing in their current form 2-3 years from now but, hey, if they think selling MuskBurgers is the key to profitability that should be an interesting pivot  ;D

I'm all for electric cars but I think we're more in the 20-30 year range when it comes to electric cars really having enough market share that gas stations will be adding charging stations en masse (maybe a little sooner if solid-state batteries pan out). Here's a great article going over the infrastructure and cost issue roadblocks that gas stations are running into when adding even a single charging station - https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/26/ev-charging-gas-stations/
It should be interesting to see how PSO, who balks at spending the money on burying power lines, reacts to the costs of increasing their output 300-400% to support future electrical demand.


There are about 20+ electric charging stations in Tulsa now.  At least 3 Tesla chargers.  It is not only viable, it is here.  Today.  And since GM has announced their intention to get out of internal combustion engines, that is gonna be a big driver going forward.


There are about 8 or so in Broken Arrow, where they also have a city charger for the Tesla patrol car they now use.  Friend just called me earlier to tell me about seeing it and watching as he lit up his lights to pull someone over.


And that 20+ stations is WAY more than there were diesel stations when I bought my first diesel car - 1978 Olds Delta 88!!






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 21, 2021, 04:24:21 pm
Tesla says they are ready to make trucks now.  This should be interesting.

$180,000 for a class 8 that will go 500 miles and look really good doing it!

I priced an International Lonestar about two years ago and they wanted that for the diesel burner!  Love the looks of it - modeled loosely after the 1939 Intl pickup truck - but not gonna pay that for one!   Still waiting to find one used....

May get one of these before the Lonestar...!


https://electrek.co/2021/07/20/tesla-semi-electric-truck-finally-go-into-production/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on July 25, 2021, 10:18:49 am
Rivian looking to build a second plant prior to an upcoming IPO

https://www.investors.com/news/ev-stocks-rivian-plans-second-factory-ahead-of-ipo-amazon-tesla/

Hopefully we've put our bid in, I'd think with the Canoo announcement and Tesla's press during the last plant selection will put us toward the top. Rivian is probably a bigger fish to catch than Tesla in my opinion. No Elon running the company, Ford and Amazon as investors, solid vehicle line up - I'd actually love to buy the R1S SUV for my next car after it's been in production for a little while.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on July 25, 2021, 10:40:24 am
Rivian looking to build a second plant prior to an upcoming IPO

https://www.investors.com/news/ev-stocks-rivian-plans-second-factory-ahead-of-ipo-amazon-tesla/

Hopefully we've put our bid in, I'd think with the Canoo announcement and Tesla's press during the last plant selection will put us toward the top. Rivian is probably a bigger fish to catch than Tesla in my opinion. No Elon running the company, Ford and Amazon as investors, solid vehicle line up - I'd actually love to buy the R1S SUV for my next car after it's been in production for a little while.

Rivian would be a huge catch especially if they landed at the Tesla site in east Tulsa.  What a shot in the arm that would be for east Tulsa.  

The Port of Inola site would be good too if they wanted direct river and rail access.
(https://rogerscountydevelopment.com/images/properties/inola-river-rail-1-770.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/2806/11836272054_ee4c6d3819_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on August 19, 2021, 10:22:43 am
Amazon is reportedly planning to open department stores, its latest experiment in physical retail
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/19/amazon-is-reportedly-planning-to-open-department-stores-.html

We have a large, empty Sears-sized store available in a good location.  Actually, it was a Sears...


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 19, 2021, 09:52:38 pm
Rivian has selected Tarrant County/Fort Worth as the next plant location. Will be spending around $5 billion on their new factory.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: SXSW on August 20, 2021, 10:04:35 am
Rivian has selected Tarrant County/Fort Worth as the next plant location. Will be spending around $5 billion on their new factory.

Huge catch for Ft Worth.  Rivian is the next Tesla. 


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 19, 2021, 08:20:39 pm
...

Read an interesting thing today that gives a little more perspective to this whole fantasy idea that billionaires should continue to be exempt from paying taxes.


Imagine, it is 80,000 BC.  You are immortal.  The world is still frozen in an ice age.

You decide to save $10,000 EVERY DAY, never spending any of it.

82,021 years later, it is 2021.

You STILL don't have as much money as Elon Musk!!

Tax the billionaires!!








Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 19, 2021, 11:50:06 pm
...
Read an interesting thing today that gives a little more perspective to this whole fantasy idea that billionaires should continue to be exempt from paying taxes.
Imagine, it is 80,000 BC.  You are immortal.  The world is still frozen in an ice age.
You decide to save $10,000 EVERY DAY, never spending any of it.
82,021 years later, it is 2021.
You STILL don't have as much money as Elon Musk!!

Tax the billionaires!!

I believe there are very few people who believe billionaires should be exempt from paying taxes.  The real question is how much should they pay.

https://usdebtclock.org
https://www.bing.com/search?q=elon+musk+worth+2021&qs=AS&pq=elon+musk+worth&sk=EP1AS4&sc=8-15&cvid=9A91C3EE243D4A7E8F261BB5F2036FF2&FORM=QBLH&sp=6

If you took all of Elon Musk's net worth it would only amount to about 7% of the US annual income tax revenue.  Would the world be better off without SpaceX and Tesla plus few other companies?  What about Jeff Bezos?  How much of his net worth should the US Government confiscate?

What should the maximum after tax annual income (including investments) be in the USA?  What should the maximum net worth of a USA citizen or person living in the USA be?
Should the US Government confiscate any net worth above some arbitrary level?

Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples' money.  :(

Edit, add:
Most of these folks' net worth can vary wildly (more than my total net worth) daily due to stock market prices.  They don't have all their $ stashed in a credit union.







Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 20, 2021, 01:22:24 am
...Read an interesting thing today that gives a little more perspective to this whole fantasy idea that billionaires should continue to be exempt from paying taxes.
Imagine, it is 80,000 BC.  You are immortal.  The world is still frozen in an ice age.
You decide to save $10,000 EVERY DAY, never spending any of it.
82,021 years later, it is 2021.
You STILL don't have as much money as Elon Musk!!

You appear to be ignoring the time value of money (mostly inflation) in your example. Even at .015% interest, one year of $10,000/day ($3,650,000 per year) without further savings for 82,021 years would be $803,678,444,579  [(3,650,000 X (1.00015^82021))=803,678,444,579] which is far more than either Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos is worth.  I'm sure you had Engineering Economics at TU.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 20, 2021, 02:14:13 am
...Read an interesting thing today that gives a little more perspective to this whole fantasy idea that billionaires should continue to be exempt from paying taxes.
Imagine, it is 80,000 BC.  You are immortal.  The world is still frozen in an ice age.
You decide to save $10,000 EVERY DAY, never spending any of it.
82,021 years later, it is 2021.
You STILL don't have as much money as Elon Musk!!

Just some more stuff late into the night....

If someone is worth $200,000,000,000 ($200B) and they decide to spend just 1% of their net worth, that's a $2,000,000,000 ($2B) chunk of change for a maybe worthwhile project. Or, maybe a pet, not so worthwhile project. He/she is certainly not going to provide any jobs to pursue that project so there is certainly no net benefit to society from that project.  Someone with $10,000 savings spending a similar percentage would spend $100, just barely enough for a week's groceries for a small family.  The little guy keeps his/her family fed, maybe.  The big guy just gets richer and nobody else benefits.  SpaceX and Tesla do not employ anyone.  No one benefits from those companies.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 20, 2021, 07:33:34 pm
I believe there are very few people who believe billionaires should be exempt from paying taxes.  The real question is how much should they pay.

https://usdebtclock.org
https://www.bing.com/search?q=elon+musk+worth+2021&qs=AS&pq=elon+musk+worth&sk=EP1AS4&sc=8-15&cvid=9A91C3EE243D4A7E8F261BB5F2036FF2&FORM=QBLH&sp=6

If you took all of Elon Musk's net worth it would only amount to about 7% of the US annual income tax revenue.  Would the world be better off without SpaceX and Tesla plus few other companies?  What about Jeff Bezos?  How much of his net worth should the US Government confiscate?

What should the maximum after tax annual income (including investments) be in the USA?  What should the maximum net worth of a USA citizen or person living in the USA be?
Should the US Government confiscate any net worth above some arbitrary level?

Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples' money.  :(

Edit, add:
Most of these folks' net worth can vary wildly (more than my total net worth) daily due to stock market prices.  They don't have all their $ stashed in a credit union.








Well one thing we do know is that if the Bush tax cuts and the Trump tax cuts had not been enacted, we would be paying off national debt instead of making more.  And that wouldn't even go back up to what the rates were when Raygun - the "holy grail" for Republicontins - was in office.

So, just go back to much less than Raygun cut them to.  Problems solved.

But then you couldn't have the "Trillions for Billionaires" program destroying the country.


Nobody said anything about confiscating - just go back to where they only made obscene amounts of money and got to keep it....




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 20, 2021, 07:35:21 pm
You appear to be ignoring the time value of money (mostly inflation) in your example. Even at .015% interest, one year of $10,000/day ($3,650,000 per year) without further savings for 82,021 years would be $803,678,444,579  [(3,650,000 X (1.00015^82021))=803,678,444,579] which is far more than either Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos is worth.  I'm sure you had Engineering Economics at TU.


There was no interest 80,000 years ago....



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 20, 2021, 10:25:03 pm
There was no interest 80,000 years ago....

Not much money either.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 20, 2021, 10:43:44 pm
Well one thing we do know is that if the Bush tax cuts and the Trump tax cuts had not been enacted, we would be paying off national debt instead of making more.  And that wouldn't even go back up to what the rates were when Raygun - the "holy grail" for Republicontins - was in office.
So, just go back to much less than Raygun cut them to.  Problems solved.
But then you couldn't have the "Trillions for Billionaires" program destroying the country.
Nobody said anything about confiscating - just go back to where they only made obscene amounts of money and got to keep it....

https://taxfoundation.org/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 21, 2021, 12:18:22 pm
https://taxfoundation.org/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/



Yep.  Note how when the big tax cuts for the highest, since those are the brackets that makes the most immediate difference, the debt also increased proportionally.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 12:40:23 pm
Yep.  Note how when the big tax cuts for the highest, since those are the brackets that makes the most immediate difference, the debt also increased proportionally.

Rates went down but a lot of loopholes were eliminated.  I have an article from the Tulsa World acknowledging that tax revenues actually went up.  The debt came because we were outspending the Soviets with our space defense programs which eventually bankrupted the Soviets.  I'll see if I can find the article in my file cabinet somewhere to get a date of publication.

When the number of people in the highest tax brackets are considered vs. the number of people in the mid tax brackets, I find it highly unlikely that the people in the highest brackets could carry the load of the national debt.




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 21, 2021, 05:25:31 pm
Rates went down but a lot of loopholes were eliminated.  I have an article from the Tulsa World acknowledging that tax revenues actually went up.  The debt came because we were outspending the Soviets with our space defense programs which eventually bankrupted the Soviets.  I'll see if I can find the article in my file cabinet somewhere to get a date of publication.

When the number of people in the highest tax brackets are considered vs. the number of people in the mid tax brackets, I find it highly unlikely that the people in the highest brackets could carry the load of the national debt.





The highest rates got the highest cuts.  Mid brackets didn't see that much difference - below say $200,000 or so.  Maybe $150,000.  Still 90% of the population.  And this is not a single point, it is a continuum going since Reagan.  When the debt was $900 Billion when he took office.  And about $4 Trillion when he left.  And on and on, down through the ages til today.

I have posted the link to the national debt page repeatedly - it shows the entire history since the very first year.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 11:13:01 pm
The highest rates got the highest cuts.  Mid brackets didn't see that much difference - below say $200,000 or so.  Maybe $150,000.  Still 90% of the population.  And this is not a single point, it is a continuum going since Reagan.  When the debt was $900 Billion when he took office.  And about $4 Trillion when he left.  And on and on, down through the ages til today.
I have posted the link to the national debt page repeatedly - it shows the entire history since the very first year.

You and I will just have to disagree on how much the rich need to pay.  "You" could take everything the super rich make and it still won't solve the deficit.  I believe a flat rate income tax above a certain amount is the best approach.  Allow, pick a number say $25,000, for a single person as income tax free. Above that everyone pays, again pick a number like 15%.  No deductions, no loopholes......  "You" get to choose how you spend your money.  Defining income is another problem. Unrealized gains should not be taxed as they could be non-realized losses the next year.  As a single person who chose not to have children... I resent but accept allowing additional allowances for children.  Children is an expenditure "you" chose to make.  I also accept not having an income tax penalty for married couples where both work.  With a flat tax that wouldn't really be a problem if the base non-taxable amount were adjusted accordingly.   But... I want an allowance for my airplane. :)

The national debt is as much political as anything else.  Used to be that the Republicans opposed the deficit but within the last 50(?) years, the deficit depended on which party was in power in Congress and which pet projects were on the line.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 22, 2021, 12:54:59 pm
You and I will just have to disagree on how much the rich need to pay.  "You" could take everything the super rich make and it still won't solve the deficit.  I believe a flat rate income tax above a certain amount is the best approach.  Allow, pick a number say $25,000, for a single person as income tax free. Above that everyone pays, again pick a number like 15%.  No deductions, no loopholes......  "You" get to choose how you spend your money.  Defining income is another problem. Unrealized gains should not be taxed as they could be non-realized losses the next year.  As a single person who chose not to have children... I resent but accept allowing additional allowances for children.  Children is an expenditure "you" chose to make.  I also accept not having an income tax penalty for married couples where both work.  With a flat tax that wouldn't really be a problem if the base non-taxable amount were adjusted accordingly.   But... I want an allowance for my airplane. :)

The national debt is as much political as anything else.  Used to be that the Republicans opposed the deficit but within the last 50(?) years, the deficit depended on which party was in power in Congress and which pet projects were on the line.



Just go back to pre-Bush and pre-Trump rates.  Stop squandering our national wealth on unnecessary, unjustified wars, and by now the debt could have been paid off.   Lol... yeah, I know, we can't resist our imperialist voyeurism, so none of that is gonna happen.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2021, 09:35:42 pm
Just go back to pre-Bush and pre-Trump rates.  Stop squandering our national wealth on unnecessary, unjustified wars, and by now the debt could have been paid off.   Lol... yeah, I know, we can't resist our imperialist voyeurism, so none of that is gonna happen.

Be careful what you wish for, the end of the Reagan years were 28% max.  Bush I and Clinton raised the top marginal rates.  I think the difference between 35% (Bush II), 37% (Trump) and 38.9% wouldn't make that much difference considering the number of people in those top brackets.

Probably cost Bush I his re-election due to 'read my lips, no new taxes". 



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 24, 2021, 09:12:25 pm
Be careful what you wish for, the end of the Reagan years were 28% max.  Bush I and Clinton raised the top marginal rates.  I think the difference between 35% (Bush II), 37% (Trump) and 38.9% wouldn't make that much difference considering the number of people in those top brackets.

Probably cost Bush I his re-election due to 'read my lips, no new taxes". 




Except for some special people making between about $40,000 and $117,000 - they got a 33% rate.  (I remember hearing about that 'bubble' thing but since I was nowhere near that, so it didn't apply to me.)

Also, showed just how catastrophic Reagan really was for the economy.  The big recession in '83/84 was his.  And all his tax cuts combined raised the debt by almost 300%.  Leaving us at $2.87 Trillion.  He took a cheap shot at Bush with the '86 cuts cause he knew tax hikes would be needed.  He really didn't like Bush very much.  Nor the rest of the country!   Debt was $4.4 Trillion after Bush's final spending spree - not quite doubled!

He also raised taxes in 82 and 84 - the biggest tax hikes ever in peace time.   As well as making sure some people got the chance to pay on Social Security income.  There are lots of adjustments, so it is tricky to plan for.


And now we are going up at over $1 Trillion a year due to Trump and his Minions.   More every year than the cumulative total for over 200 years!












Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2021, 09:47:59 pm
Except for some special people making between about $40,000 and $117,000 - they got a 33% rate.  (I remember hearing about that 'bubble' thing but since I was nowhere near that, so it didn't apply to me.)
Also, showed just how catastrophic Reagan really was for the economy.  The big recession in '83/84 was his.  And all his tax cuts combined raised the debt by almost 300%.  Leaving us at $2.87 Trillion.  He took a cheap shot at Bush with the '86 cuts cause he knew tax hikes would be needed.  He really didn't like Bush very much.  Nor the rest of the country!   Debt was $4.4 Trillion after Bush's final spending spree - not quite doubled!
He also raised taxes in 82 and 84 - the biggest tax hikes ever in peace time.   As well as making sure some people got the chance to pay on Social Security income.  There are lots of adjustments, so it is tricky to plan for.
And now we are going up at over $1 Trillion a year due to Trump and his Minions.   More every year than the cumulative total for over 200 years!

Unlike the method where only one variable changes at a time, many things were changed all at once, several times.  Makes it difficult to pin any one item down.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 25, 2021, 08:32:08 pm
Unlike the method where only one variable changes at a time, many things were changed all at once, several times.  Makes it difficult to pin any one item down.




So true.  But we do know that lowered taxes and fighting 'financed' wars - not pay as we go - have created what and where we are today.

And while 'inflation' is said to be caused by too many dollars chasing too few goods, there is another, equally powerful source as taught by Dr. Steve Steib in Econ 101 at TU.... national debt.  So the official inflation reported is probably on the order of about 1/2 of the real inflation rate.






Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 25, 2021, 10:46:18 pm
And while 'inflation' is said to be caused by too many dollars chasing too few goods, there is another, equally powerful source as taught by Dr. Steve Steib in Econ 101 at TU.... national debt.  So the official inflation reported is probably on the order of about 1/2 of the real inflation rate.

I'm not so sure "equally powerful" equates to a linear relationship of 1/2.  But, national debt does contribute to inflation.  At least that's what the econ community professes.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 25, 2021, 10:58:35 pm
So true.  But we do know that lowered taxes and fighting 'financed' wars - not pay as we go - have created what and where we are today.

Have we ever really gone to war with pay as we go.  We had Continental Dollars, Greenbacks, War Bonds, US Savings Bonds..



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 26, 2021, 11:22:23 am
Have we ever really gone to war with pay as we go.  We had Continental Dollars, Greenbacks, War Bonds, US Savings Bonds..





Not very much, but at least we didn't go looking for the wrong wars to fight nearly as much as we have in recent decades.  And we did raise taxes in many previous ones rather than giving huge tax cuts to billionaires.   Remember the surcharge during Nixon?

And those ridiculous wage and price controls?   

These obscenities are pretty much always Republicontin driven.








Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 26, 2021, 08:14:55 pm
And those ridiculous wage and price controls?   

I remember price controls.  Led to gasoline shortages.  Fortunately, I had a regular gas station and he let his regulars fill up whenever he could.  I was also a volunteer fireman and the city (not Tulsa) let the volunteers buy gas from the city in limited amounts.




Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 27, 2021, 02:48:33 pm
I remember price controls.  Led to gasoline shortages.  Fortunately, I had a regular gas station and he let his regulars fill up whenever he could.  I was also a volunteer fireman and the city (not Tulsa) let the volunteers buy gas from the city in limited amounts.





OPEC finally taking the CIA advice on how to control the market is what caused gas shortages.  Several years after wage and price.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 27, 2021, 04:49:47 pm
OPEC finally taking the CIA advice on how to control the market is what caused gas shortages.  Several years after wage and price.

I just remember the early 70s with gas lines.  I was stationed in Va Beach.  My car almost had enough range to get to Phila, PA area so I carried a 5 gallon can of gas in the trunk even though I hated the safety issue.  Most gas stations were ordered closed on Sunday, my return trip to Va Beach.

OPEC is certainly the direct cause but oil was available elsewhere but not at the same price.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 27, 2021, 08:20:49 pm
I just remember the early 70s with gas lines.  I was stationed in Va Beach.  My car almost had enough range to get to Phila, PA area so I carried a 5 gallon can of gas in the trunk even though I hated the safety issue.  Most gas stations were ordered closed on Sunday, my return trip to Va Beach.

OPEC is certainly the direct cause but oil was available elsewhere but not at the same price.


Nixon was blathering about no controls as late as July, 1971.  Then Aug, put them in place.


We had been used to oil prices basically about $2.50 a barrel for a long time, then they went up to about $8 a barrel (1973) because of our support of Israel in the Yom Kippur war, and everyone lost their minds.  We had been playing both sides against the middle for decades and one side called our bluff (OPEC side).  

Gas was running from about 26 to 29 cents a gallon from the time I started putting gas into car tanks (driving a while before I was 16), in a 1961 Chevy,  until '73 and 74 when it jumped to the low/mid 30's.   When I started at OSU in 76, the price took a big hike to over 50 cents a gallon - I was commuting in my 1970 Cutlass, at 14 mpg, so that was fun!

There were 'gas wars' all the time, where stations were racing each other to the lowest price they could, and giving away lots of stuff - I still have 3 large amber glass tumblers I got from gas stations of that time.  The other dozen or so have broken over the decades!  There was a wide variety of cookware and eating utensils, such that you could furnish your kitchen with everything you needed to cook and eat on.  Lowest price I ever found here in Tulsa was 17.9 cents a gallon.  A trip to Arkansas led me to Noel, MO in 1969, where they had gas at 12.9 cents a gallon, one night about 9 pm!   I had just filled up in Springdale area, so was full.  But I was NOT gonna miss filling up at 12 cents a gallon.  Drove around half the night in NW AR and SW MO just to empty that Chevy!   Came back to Noel and filled up!   I think it took close to $2.00, IIRC !!











Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: Red Arrow on November 27, 2021, 11:33:00 pm
We had been used to oil prices basically about $2.50 a barrel for a long time, then they went up to about $8 a barrel (1973) because of our support of Israel in the Yom Kippur war, and everyone lost their minds.  We had been playing both sides against the middle for decades and one side called our bluff (OPEC side).  
Gas was running from about 26 to 29 cents a gallon from the time I started putting gas into car tanks (driving a while before I was 16), in a 1961 Chevy,  until '73 and 74 when it jumped to the low/mid 30's.   When I started at OSU in 76, the price took a big hike to over 50 cents a gallon - I was commuting in my 1970 Cutlass, at 14 mpg, so that was fun!
There were 'gas wars' all the time, where stations were racing each other to the lowest price they could, and giving away lots of stuff

I remember gas in the Phila, PA area as low to mid 30 cents in the late 60s.  There were refineries in the area so transportation wasn't a major issue.  No major gas wars that I remember but some stations were less expensive.  I drove an extra 2 or 3 miles to save 5 cents/gallon. The '54 Buick got about 10 mpg around town, maybe 12 on the highway.  Dynaflow tranny was smooooth but not very gas efficient.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 28, 2021, 01:16:14 pm
I remember gas in the Phila, PA area as low to mid 30 cents in the late 60s.  There were refineries in the area so transportation wasn't a major issue.  No major gas wars that I remember but some stations were less expensive.  I drove an extra 2 or 3 miles to save 5 cents/gallon. The '54 Buick got about 10 mpg around town, maybe 12 on the highway.  Dynaflow tranny was smooooth but not very gas efficient.


The family '55 Buick did about the same...don't think it actually ever got up to 10 unless on long, flat highway stretch...



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on March 06, 2022, 05:58:02 pm
On March 13, 2020, venture capitalist Michael Basch sent an email with the subject line “Tesla update” to two members of Tulsa, Oklahoma’s economic development team. Basch said he had just spoken to Elon Musk’s former chief of staff, Sam Teller, in order to get intel on how Tulsa could entice Musk to build Tesla’s next factory in the city. In order to do that, Basch reported, Tulsa needed to get out of Musk’s way.

“The biggest, most important thing they are looking for is the speed to which they can go from 0 to getting cars off the line,” Basch wrote. “To quote Sam, ‘Speed is music to Elon’s ears.’”

This email, along with 937 other pages of records obtained by Motherboard from a public records request, provide a detailed example of what it looks like when a city begs a billionaire to open a business or factory there, a process cities across the country repeat on varying scales as a matter of course. While the Amazon HQ2 saga was the most prominent example, cities regularly expend inordinate amounts of energy on such things, and it is a process those who work in the field of “economic development” increasingly recognize is little more than a glorified pageantry to make rich people like them.

--

Back when he worked in economic development in New York City and later in Washington D.C in the mid-2000s and early 2010s, David Zipper used to play that game. But he told Motherboard that now, looking back on his experience, one anecdote stands out. A friend working on moving his company’s headquarters told Zipper a joke. “‘You know, David,’” Zipper recalled to Motherboard, “‘They say there’s a 100-page book about how to attract a headquarters to your city.’ And I said, is that right? He said, ‘Yeah, the first 99 pages are blank. And then the last page says, ‘Where does the CEO want to live?’”

--

In the end, none of it worked, for exactly the reason everyone knew it wouldn’t. Tesla picked Austin, not because it would save them money or provided some inherent advantage, but because, as Musk put it, “key members of the team that would need to move to Austin…Austin [was] their top pick, to be totally frank.”


Whole article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgmbp3/last-stages-of-desperation-inside-tulsas-courtship-of-elon-musk
FOI:  https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21210534/tulsa-tesla-motherboard-vice-news.pdf

(https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1644943327579-screen-shot-2022-02-14-at-115457-am.png)



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on March 07, 2022, 10:45:38 am
Kinda makes you wonder if the reason so many executives recently left Canoo was due to the plan of moving their headquarters to Arkansas and build a plant in Oklahoma.

Also - it would be really neat if Tulsa would try to help small businesses that are already here with as much vigor as they show towards businesses that aren't (and probably never will be). Years ago the city came up with these concrete Route 66 planters that they placed up and down 11th street. Our building was on 11th but we never had heard anything from the city about these until they started popping up. We noticed a lot of them were placed in front of empty buildings or parking lots which didn't make any sense as the business owner was supposed to take care of the planter by keeping flowers in it and so on and they were putting them where there was no one to do that. So after making a few phone calls we finally got ahold of the person who was more or less in charge of where they were being placed. We told him that we had seen a lot of these being placed in dumb areas and that we'd like to get one in front of our business which was in an original 30's Route 66 building and we had been in business at the time for a decent while. We were told 'tough - there is no more money for more planters and we can't afford to move them either but if you want one you can go buy it yourself from the company who made them'. Amazing how they always have money to court billionaires but can't spare a dime to help companies who are their tax base.  ::)


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 07, 2022, 01:23:11 pm
Kinda makes you wonder if the reason so many executives recently left Canoo was due to the plan of moving their headquarters to Arkansas and build a plant in Oklahoma.

Also - it would be really neat if Tulsa would try to help small businesses that are already here with as much vigor as they show towards businesses that aren't (and probably never will be). Years ago the city came up with these concrete Route 66 planters that they placed up and down 11th street. Our building was on 11th but we never had heard anything from the city about these until they started popping up. We noticed a lot of them were placed in front of empty buildings or parking lots which didn't make any sense as the business owner was supposed to take care of the planter by keeping flowers in it and so on and they were putting them where there was no one to do that. So after making a few phone calls we finally got ahold of the person who was more or less in charge of where they were being placed. We told him that we had seen a lot of these being placed in dumb areas and that we'd like to get one in front of our business which was in an original 30's Route 66 building and we had been in business at the time for a decent while. We were told 'tough - there is no more money for more planters and we can't afford to move them either but if you want one you can go buy it yourself from the company who made them'. Amazing how they always have money to court billionaires but can't spare a dime to help companies who are their tax base.  ::)


How long you been here??   You cannot possibly be surprised by that, even if it has only been 30 minutes or so...

Okrahoma Way!



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on March 07, 2022, 03:45:46 pm

How long you been here??   You cannot possibly be surprised by that, even if it has only been 30 minutes or so...

Okrahoma Way!



Well - not surprised but amazed and I never stop being amazed by stupidity.  ;D


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 07, 2022, 09:03:52 pm
Well - not surprised but amazed and I never stop being amazed by stupidity.  ;D

From what I've heard is GKFF has pretty much taken over recruiting/HR through a shell organization called InTulsa. While startups always go through purge phases it sounds like GKFF is a driving force behind some of it and also is replacing/adding talent as fast as it is exiting, which is always conveniently left out of news articles because that makes for much less click bait. I can't yet tell if this will be a win for GKFF and they will get this company really rolling or it could as easily end up being a Solyndra 2.0. Who knows? It's far from circling the drain yet that's for sure. Getting the factory and facilities built I think will be a plus, it can always be readapted to other companies/users if Canoo ends up insolvent.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on October 14, 2022, 12:30:51 pm
Musk shows what a humanitarian he is...

Elon Musk’s SpaceX has said it cannot afford to continue to donate satellite internet to Ukraine and has asked the US government to pick up the bill, according to a report, as the relationship between the billionaire and Kyiv breaks down.

But the request for funding comes after a high-profile intervention from Musk, who suggested Ukraine should seek an end to the war by surrendering territory to Russia and committing to remain “neutral”. His tweets led to a furious reaction from the Ukrainian government, which had previously praised Musk for offering the Starlink system.

“F--k off is my very diplomatic reply to you,” tweeted Andrij Melnyk, the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany. “The only outcome is that now no Ukrainian will EVER buy your f…ing Tesla crap. So good luck to you.”

In response to a suggestion that Musk was threatening to withdraw Starlink because of Melnyk’s words, the SpaceX chief executive tweeted this morning that “we’re just following his recommendation 🤷‍♂️”.

On Tuesday, Musk denied a report that he had spoken directly to Vladimir Putin, the Russian president. Ian Bremmer, the president of the political risk consultancy Eurasia Group, said: “Elon Musk told me he had spoken with Putin and the Kremlin directly about Ukraine. He also told me what the Kremlin’s red lines were.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/elon-musk-spacex-no-longer-fund-starlink-internet-ukraine


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on October 14, 2022, 02:41:40 pm
Cue the headlines tomorrow of "Tesla to build new factory in Moscow".

Ironically their build quality will be right at home next to Russian cars.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on October 14, 2022, 03:16:25 pm
Just another in a long line of events that show what a asshat musk is. I'm glad we didn't get any kind of tesla facility now. Who know what the future of his companies look like when he alienates everyone and becomes another mypillow like COE that survives on a cult base. Looks like Canoo is inching closer and closer to being a real thing though, albeit the potential of them building anything substantial in OK is still up in the air.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: patric on December 14, 2022, 08:02:44 pm
CNN  — Twitter on Wednesday permanently suspended an account that tracked the location of Elon Musk’s private jet, despite the social media company’s owner last month vowing, “My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane."

Not getting the Tesla plant may be a blessing in disguise.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/tech/elonjet-twitter-suspended/index.html


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: BKDotCom on December 15, 2022, 08:55:19 am
Me thinks this thread has drifted outside the realm of Tulsa development
Belongs in Politics / People-that-are-jerks


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: shavethewhales on December 15, 2022, 09:40:37 am
Tesla is definitely on a spiral, but the semi truck business could lift them, and in spite of everything they do have a lot of momentum at this point so they could be re-organized or bought out at some point. I don't like the company or it's leader, but the investment in OK still would have been nice and probably would have lead to more. On the bright side, Canoo is still chugging along...


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 15, 2022, 10:38:18 am
Tesla is definitely on a spiral, but the semi truck business could lift them, and in spite of everything they do have a lot of momentum at this point so they could be re-organized or bought out at some point. I don't like the company or it's leader, but the investment in OK still would have been nice and probably would have lead to more. On the bright side, Canoo is still chugging along...

The Semi really could be just as big as all their business combined right now. I still think they'll need another production facility as big as Austin probably just for the Semi at some point. Nevada can't handle everything overflow from Austin.

I do think it's hilarious reading back all the people saying Tulsa never had a chance because Elon was too 'liberal' and our state is too crazy. Heck it seems like Elon might be too crazy for Oklahoma. After living in Texas I can tell you the Q anon and conspiracy side of things and just the 'bluntness' of people down there is 10x what it is here.

There isn't any reason why Oklahoma and Tulsa don't have a shot at any Tesla expansion. Question is Elon going to get removed by the board if he lets Twitter continue to take up time and ruin their reputation. I can tell you as someone who was once going to buy a Tesla I will never drive one as long as he's making a bunch of money off it and spouting out hateful stuff non stop. California, etc. are their biggest markets and they're already seeing drops in sales. Even in the last few days he got in an argument with conservatives who are still pumping out the electric cars are worse for the environment than gas - so good luck with that Elon.

____

Another topic, Canoo I believe is working on an order from the US Army which would be huge. I think initial order would be for several thousand of their trucks which would given them close to 50,000 orders this year from the vans to trucks. Army could eventually order hundreds of thousands if the test order goes well. These would likely be used around army bases and other areas versus a battlefield vehicles. More logistics and operational type stuff which is a big part of making sure our Army functions. That could lead into orders for other services too (Navy, etc.) and there really isn't any competition for Canoo who could fill that at the moment. Maybe Ford, but they are so bogged down in trying to get regular trucks out to consumers there's no way they will be able to be a competitor for a few more years likely - same with Chevy who is really not as far as Ford on the electric truck side. Tesla's trucks are jokes, the only one of theirs I think is ridiculous and the Army for sure isn't buying anything new from Elon in this administration going forward.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: tulsabug on December 16, 2022, 08:42:55 am
The Semi really could be just as big as all their business combined right now. I still think they'll need another production facility as big as Austin probably just for the Semi at some point. Nevada can't handle everything overflow from Austin.

I do think it's hilarious reading back all the people saying Tulsa never had a chance because Elon was too 'liberal' and our state is too crazy. Heck it seems like Elon might be too crazy for Oklahoma. After living in Texas I can tell you the Q anon and conspiracy side of things and just the 'bluntness' of people down there is 10x what it is here.

There isn't any reason why Oklahoma and Tulsa don't have a shot at any Tesla expansion. Question is Elon going to get removed by the board if he lets Twitter continue to take up time and ruin their reputation. I can tell you as someone who was once going to buy a Tesla I will never drive one as long as he's making a bunch of money off it and spouting out hateful stuff non stop. California, etc. are their biggest markets and they're already seeing drops in sales. Even in the last few days he got in an argument with conservatives who are still pumping out the electric cars are worse for the environment than gas - so good luck with that Elon.

____

Another topic, Canoo I believe is working on an order from the US Army which would be huge. I think initial order would be for several thousand of their trucks which would given them close to 50,000 orders this year from the vans to trucks. Army could eventually order hundreds of thousands if the test order goes well. These would likely be used around army bases and other areas versus a battlefield vehicles. More logistics and operational type stuff which is a big part of making sure our Army functions. That could lead into orders for other services too (Navy, etc.) and there really isn't any competition for Canoo who could fill that at the moment. Maybe Ford, but they are so bogged down in trying to get regular trucks out to consumers there's no way they will be able to be a competitor for a few more years likely - same with Chevy who is really not as far as Ford on the electric truck side. Tesla's trucks are jokes, the only one of theirs I think is ridiculous and the Army for sure isn't buying anything new from Elon in this administration going forward.

If Canoo can get an actual contract from the Army, that would be great but let's not get ahead of ourselves. They got a $67500 contract to supply two vehicles for evaluation - most likely they approached all the armed forces about trying them out at cost (or a loss) and only the Army said "sure - what the hell". And let's not forget the Army has been "evaluating" hydrogen vehicles for almost 11 years now and that really hasn't gone anywhere. Even if Canoo gets a contract from the Army, you'd really be looking at them only being a support vehicle on the bases which would probably, at best, amount to a few thousand trucks. A nice contract to have as lifetime parts and support are included, but it's not gonna happen soon if it happens at all. Ford, GM, even Rivian will have much better supply chains and much fewer orders in the pipeline here in a few years and they're all better positioned than Canoo to landing an actual military contract. I'd be willing to bet that the Army will want to check those company's offerings out before committing to adding EVs, and the logistics of maintaining EVs, to their arsenal. Ultimately, I see Chevy and Ford winning most if not all the military contracts since they already have a huge relationship with them and, at least in the case of the Lightning, already have basically the same truck all over the bases. Maintaining an electric F-150 would be easy since it shares so many parts with its ICE brethren.

The Tesla Cybertruck is a total joke, like Musk's weave.



Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 18, 2022, 10:39:08 pm
If Canoo can get an actual contract from the Army, that would be great but let's not get ahead of ourselves. They got a $67500 contract to supply two vehicles for evaluation - most likely they approached all the armed forces about trying them out at cost (or a loss) and only the Army said "sure - what the hell". And let's not forget the Army has been "evaluating" hydrogen vehicles for almost 11 years now and that really hasn't gone anywhere. Even if Canoo gets a contract from the Army, you'd really be looking at them only being a support vehicle on the bases which would probably, at best, amount to a few thousand trucks. A nice contract to have as lifetime parts and support are included, but it's not gonna happen soon if it happens at all. Ford, GM, even Rivian will have much better supply chains and much fewer orders in the pipeline here in a few years and they're all better positioned than Canoo to landing an actual military contract. I'd be willing to bet that the Army will want to check those company's offerings out before committing to adding EVs, and the logistics of maintaining EVs, to their arsenal. Ultimately, I see Chevy and Ford winning most if not all the military contracts since they already have a huge relationship with them and, at least in the case of the Lightning, already have basically the same truck all over the bases. Maintaining an electric F-150 would be easy since it shares so many parts with its ICE brethren.

The Tesla Cybertruck is a total joke, like Musk's weave.



What I had been told is that the Army is looking at order several thousand as an expansion of the orginal test vehicles. I could be wrong about that but I don't know.

Ford and Chevy don't have any spare capacity on the EV side and likely won't for several years which opens the door to a company like Canoo. If they can pull it off.


Title: Re: Tesla's Big F***ing Field
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 18, 2022, 10:41:05 pm
Tesla is expected to announce another international factory, this one will be in Monterrey Mexico according to some sources.

https://www.thestreet.com/technology/teslas-new-factory-location-revealed?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO (https://www.thestreet.com/technology/teslas-new-factory-location-revealed?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO)