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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: Tulsan on February 24, 2020, 09:27:38 pm



Title: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Tulsan on February 24, 2020, 09:27:38 pm
There are no threads devoted to this project, and it's coming up on being bid out.  So I started a new one.

If you look at the city engineer's bid page and scroll to near the bottom you'll see the Zink Dam contractor preview: https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/departments/engineering-services/construction-bids/.  There are all kinds of detailed drawings in that item.  A LOT of design work has occurred.  I didn't realize this project would include extensive bank stabilization and aesthetic improvements well upstream of the dam site, as well as major West Bank rehabilitation in addition to the Gathering Place shoreline and the recreational flume.

The direct link to the PDF is here - but beware, it's a very large file: https://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/11659/zink_dam_drawings_90_nov_2019_contractor_preview.pdf
 
Here's an example:

(https://i.imgur.com/OEDoqUv.jpg)




Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on February 24, 2020, 11:20:37 pm
Thanks for posting these detailed plans.  I’m excited to see this project get underway as well as the new pedestrian bridge.  What is the current timeline for completion of this project?


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on February 25, 2020, 08:49:24 am
Thanks for posting! This should improve how the river looks upstream, correct?


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Tulsan on February 25, 2020, 09:27:24 am
Thanks for posting! This should improve how the river looks upstream, correct?

Yes it's supposed to raise the level of the river upstream of the dam by 3 feet.  I don't know how far upstream the effects will be felt. 

Thanks for posting these detailed plans.  I’m excited to see this project get underway as well as the new pedestrian bridge.  What is the current timeline for completion of this project?

According to this news story, construction could begin as early as July of this year, but I have no idea how long it will take: https://www.newson6.com/story/41419672/big-changes-planned-for-arkansas-river-in-tulsa.  Kirby Crowe will probably jump in here and answer soon.

(https://i.imgur.com/1uBmKie.png)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on February 25, 2020, 09:59:18 am
That link is to the 90% review set (and the plans are even bigger now) with comments recently returned to the design team on the 99% final review with bid advertisement just a few weeks away.  The Zink Dam renovation is a very exciting/transformation project that is of far more advanced technology than the exiting dam utilized and is closely coordinated with the Gathering Place and the new Ped Bridge which will be constructed at the same time with both projects utilizing the same coffer (temporary, for construction) dam for construction.  It's been a long time coming for those who have been directly involved in the corridor projects.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: rebound on February 25, 2020, 10:07:10 am
That link is to the 90% review set (and the plans are even bigger now) with comments recently returned to the design team on the 99% final review with bid advertisement just a few weeks away.  The Zink Dam renovation is a very exciting/transformation project that is far more advanced than technology than the exiting am utilized and is closely coordinated with the Gathering Place and the new Ped Bridge which will be constructed at the same time with both projects utilizing the same coffer (temporary, for construction) dam for construction.  It's been a long time coming for those who have been directly involved in the corridor projects.

That is awesome.  I'm really excited to see this happening.   And, thanks for the note on the coffer dams.   I was looking at the plans and thought, "well surely they are going to use those coffers for the bridge, too".  So, very cool.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Tulsan on February 25, 2020, 10:19:34 am
That link is to the 90% review set (and the plans are even bigger now) with comments recently returned to the design team on the 99% final review with bid advertisement just a few weeks away.  The Zink Dam renovation is a very exciting/transformation project that is far more advanced than technology than the exiting am utilized and is closely coordinated with the Gathering Place and the new Ped Bridge which will be constructed at the same time with both projects utilizing the same coffer (temporary, for construction) dam for construction.  It's been a long time coming for those who have been directly involved in the corridor projects.

Thanks for jumping in.  I know there are a lot of variables, but what's a reasonable timeline for the dam+bridge+shoreline improvements?  Completion around 2025?


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on February 25, 2020, 11:17:27 am
I don't have the bridge schedule but the dam is scheduled for a two year construction period but that is highly water level dependent as the coffer dam height and flow requirements are strict in order to maintain flood flow capacity and site safety so any periods of extended high flow will cause delay and as with the original construction thee will likely be coffer dam wash outs, it happens with river work...


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Tulsan on February 25, 2020, 11:49:44 am
So assuming a summer 2020 start, and allowing 6 months for overruns, we might be looking at a completion date of Q1 2023 - three years from now.  That's not bad!  Presumably the pedestrian bridge would come online around that time as well.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on February 25, 2020, 12:23:48 pm
So assuming a summer 2020 start, and allowing 6 months for overruns, we might be looking at a completion date of Q1 2023 - three years from now.  That's not bad!  Presumably the pedestrian bridge would come online around that time as well.

Discovery Lab is scheduled to open in fall 2021 with the rest of the Phase 2 improvements at the Gathering Place coming online in 2022 so having the dam and bridge open in 2023 would be great.  The biggest question mark is what will be part of the third and final phase of the Gathering Place south of Crow Creek which hasn't been released yet. 


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on February 25, 2020, 12:25:53 pm
That link is to the 90% review set (and the plans are even bigger now) with comments recently returned to the design team on the 99% final review with bid advertisement just a few weeks away.  The Zink Dam renovation is a very exciting/transformation project that is of far more advanced technology than the exiting dam utilized and is closely coordinated with the Gathering Place and the new Ped Bridge which will be constructed at the same time with both projects utilizing the same coffer (temporary, for construction) dam for construction.  It's been a long time coming for those who have been directly involved in the corridor projects.

Curious, will there still be rapids over by PSO (the "Tulsa Wave") when this project is complete, or will those shift entirely to the new set of rapids on the east side of the river?  Will there still be the remnants of the old jetty or will that be removed?


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on February 25, 2020, 02:33:29 pm
Curious, will there still be rapids over by PSO (the "Tulsa Wave") when this project is complete, or will those shift entirely to the new set of rapids on the east side of the river?  Will there still be the remnants of the old jetty or will that be removed?
All white water features are located on the East side and have been combined into the flume which has multiple tunable drop/wave features.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on February 25, 2020, 03:32:55 pm
All white water features are located on the East side and have been combined into the flume which has multiple tunable drop/wave features.

Cool, it will be more accessible that way.  Btw here is a now-old map of the Gathering Place with how it interacts with the whitewater flume.  There are some differences and the Phase 2 area is now completely different in that the Discovery Lab is at the corner of 31st & Riverside with parking lots to the east, but the overall plan is still the same.  This also hints at what Phase 3 could look like along the south side of Crow Creek.

(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/b43b639ba5e71aec335d223935b0e0ee.jpg)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on April 22, 2020, 01:09:19 pm
Gathering Place posted this great aerial with downtown in the background.  Since I know the riverfront north of the dam is a work in progress in conjunction with the dam and bridge project I wanted to see what we can expect it look like when it's all finished.  Anyone know if this is still the current plan which includes the small lagoon area and partially-completed trail next to the water?  And how does that tie into the whitewater flume?

(https://americas.uli.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/05/Gathering-Place_Tulsa_02.jpg)

(https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/beaa44b/2147483647/strip/true/crop/636x358+0+61/resize/1280x720!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmediaassets.kjrh.com%2Fphoto%2F2018%2F09%2F10%2Fgathering5_1536613732875_97050119_ver1.0_640_480.jpg)

(https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/94828085_1543254169176620_6073621237341356032_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=zyr3sapwRNkAX_iwqat&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-1.fna&oh=7d2fae8fe52b7547c3441a65b48403ea&oe=5EC67711)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on May 16, 2020, 06:24:13 pm
Still slated to begin in September and complete in 2023.  Pedestrian bridge to start at the same time and be complete by the end of 2022.

 https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/zink-dam-construction-bids-higher-than-expected-project-still-expect-to-begin-in-the-fall/article_4722697e-e1d6-5dff-98e2-3c3aeb4170c8.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/zink-dam-construction-bids-higher-than-expected-project-still-expect-to-begin-in-the-fall/article_4722697e-e1d6-5dff-98e2-3c3aeb4170c8.html)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 13, 2020, 10:56:00 am
The City hoasted a good Ground Breaking Ceremony this morning.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Tulsan on August 13, 2020, 12:15:27 pm
Very cool.

Any word on the South Tulsa dam?


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 13, 2020, 02:53:14 pm
The City hoasted a good Ground Breaking Ceremony this morning.

Great to see this finally happening!  Is the pedestrian bridge still planning to start in November so work can be coordinated between both projects?  Assuming they will have some coffer dams and other things that they'll do during the drier months.  It will be a mess for a couple years but really worth it in the end.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: smitteebc on August 13, 2020, 03:20:10 pm
Very cool.

Any word on the South Tulsa dam?

I'm curious about this as well. Haven't been hearing as much on the South Tulsa Dam


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 13, 2020, 08:24:29 pm
I'm curious about this as well. Haven't been hearing as much on the South Tulsa Dam

I think the key to that will be how much funding the Creek Nation provides as they will be one of the biggest beneficiaries.  I imagine they would want it looking more like this all year so they can run ferry boats between the casino/hotel and Riverwalk Crossing (which they own).

(https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/117033672_10222499202046473_1589490171725872774_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=3PzvSObxnkYAX8PM0pu&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-1.fna&oh=94ba5982de078acc038f6e0e86aa7b00&oe=5F5CF884)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 14, 2020, 02:42:35 pm
I'm curious about this as well. Haven't been hearing as much on the South Tulsa Dam

I believe the money from the last Vision will only pay for the design/engineering of the south Tulsa dam and that they will be able to get approval from the corps to build it. Essentially to have it shovel ready. But, in order to build this it required the Creek Nation to pay for the actual construction costs.

I don't think this is at the top of their list at the moment. They've been in the process of acquiring more land around the casino and I've seen rendering of concepts for the land across Riverside. I think that's more of a priority for them. I think they are wanting to build some sort of entertainment complex/retail center there, something to help make the casino more of a destination and compete better with the Hard Rock and some of the southern casino's in Durant/Thackerville that are dominating with Texas visitors.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: swake on August 14, 2020, 03:15:13 pm
I believe the money from the last Vision will only pay for the design/engineering of the south Tulsa dam and that they will be able to get approval from the corps to build it. Essentially to have it shovel ready. But, in order to build this it required the Creek Nation to pay for the actual construction costs.

I don't think this is at the top of their list at the moment. They've been in the process of acquiring more land around the casino and I've seen rendering of concepts for the land across Riverside. I think that's more of a priority for them. I think they are wanting to build some sort of entertainment complex/retail center there, something to help make the casino more of a destination and compete better with the Hard Rock and some of the southern casino's in Durant/Thackerville that are dominating with Texas visitors.

No, the money is there for the dam, mostly. The last I heard the dam was projected for construction in the 2025 time frame. Part of the money came from the Tulsa vote, Jenks also voted for part and the balance of needed money, $25 million, is to come from The Creek Nation. The problem is that $25 million was never locked down and was a loose deal made with a Creek Administration a couple of Chiefs ago. This doesn't mean the Nation won't come up with the money when it is time, it's just that they have never fully committed to it and the people that agreed in principle are long gone.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 16, 2020, 12:55:19 pm
No, the money is there for the dam, mostly. The last I heard the dam was projected for construction in the 2025 time frame. Part of the money came from the Tulsa vote, Jenks also voted for part and the balance of needed money, $25 million, is to come from The Creek Nation. The problem is that $25 million was never locked down and was a loose deal made with a Creek Administration a couple of Chiefs ago. This doesn't mean the Nation won't come up with the money when it is time, it's just that they have never fully committed to it and the people that agreed in principle are long gone.

Gotcha, thanks. I thought the Creek Nation was going to be responsible for more than that. It still will come down to wether they can get the missing piece to fund the actual construction. They have enough to get it to ground breaking, but the question will be do they get the money from the Creek Nation when the time comes - they seem to have their focus on other things. To get it built there might have to be another funding source to come up with that $25 million. Maybe they can get it passed through a bond from the State given they've dump what $100 million or so into the First Americans Museum. Would be nice to see them return the favor a bit to Tulsa - not like that's likely to happen either.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 17, 2020, 09:31:11 am
I'm curious about this as well. Haven't been hearing as much on the South Tulsa Dam
The 404 Permit has been approved.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 17, 2020, 10:06:32 am
Gotcha, thanks. I thought the Creek Nation was going to be responsible for more than that. It still will come down to wether they can get the missing piece to fund the actual construction. They have enough to get it to ground breaking, but the question will be do they get the money from the Creek Nation when the time comes - they seem to have their focus on other things. To get it built there might have to be another funding source to come up with that $25 million. Maybe they can get it passed through a bond from the State given they've dump what $100 million or so into the First Americans Museum. Would be nice to see them return the favor a bit to Tulsa - not like that's likely to happen either.
The third leg of the funding was intended to be a Maintenance Endowment and was/is identified as coming from other sources or entities.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 17, 2020, 01:18:33 pm
I'm curious about the backlash/opposition to this and the response from the City.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html)

https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y (https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y)

It seems like there's a number of questions about the effects of the dam (washing buried pollutants out from ground below refineries), destroying endangered species habitats, and the claim that it wouldn't even necessarily help create a stable "lake", it'll just prop up the water a bit higher when there are releases, but will still look dry and empty as we're used to during low/moderate flow times. It sounds like all 3 dams might be needed to get the advertised "lake" sold to voters.


Then I'm highly skeptical they'll even meet the new revised budget. The things in Vision 2025 have all been a combination of disappointing and far over budget (Gilcrease "expansion"/i.e. smaller complete new build; BMX HQ far over budget and demolished baseball stadium for no reason; pedestrian bridge almost double allotted cost estimate).


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: rebound on August 17, 2020, 09:13:53 pm
I'm curious about the backlash/opposition to this and the response from the City.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html)

https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y (https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y)

It seems like there's a number of questions about the effects of the dam (washing buried pollutants out from ground below refineries), destroying endangered species habitats, and the claim that it wouldn't even necessarily help create a stable "lake", it'll just prop up the water a bit higher when there are releases, but will still look dry and empty as we're used to during low/moderate flow times. It sounds like all 3 dams might be needed to get the advertised "lake" sold to voters.


Then I'm highly skeptical they'll even meet the new revised budget. The things in Vision 2025 have all been a combination of disappointing and far over budget (Gilcrease "expansion"/i.e. smaller complete new build; BMX HQ far over budget and demolished baseball stadium for no reason; pedestrian bridge almost double allotted cost estimate).

I know several of these "anti"fishermen folk.  I've tried to have logical discussions with them, to no avail.  I've addressed every one of their objections, again, without swaying any of their minds.   I could go into each issue, but generally their overall argument is "it costs too much, and we don't like it".  Which is fine, but don't then wrap a series of unfounded and/or illogical arguments around the topic.    Happy to have a side-bar discussion, if anyone want to.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 18, 2020, 12:24:18 pm
I'm curious about the backlash/opposition to this and the response from the City.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html)

https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y (https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y)

It seems like there's a number of questions about the effects of the dam (washing buried pollutants out from ground below refineries), destroying endangered species habitats, and the claim that it wouldn't even necessarily help create a stable "lake", it'll just prop up the water a bit higher when there are releases, but will still look dry and empty as we're used to during low/moderate flow times. It sounds like all 3 dams might be needed to get the advertised "lake" sold to voters.

All of these concerns were vetted during the 404 Permit Review which included an extended public and agency comment periods.  The only endangered species is the Tern and the project includes the construction and maintenance of of a significant nesting island well downstream of the dam that is one of the very first items to be constructed.

With respect to the refinery, Holly has been at the table during the project design and has a known issue and a project to specifically address the bank seepage.

The additional depth provides for both a larger/deeper pool and provides some stored water for release down the recreationally flume between hydro releases.   The long term solution to low flow is the proposed upstream dam that the Corps of Engineers is presently beginning the Plans Phase for (there is a confirmed "Federal Interest" in this Project and funding was included in WRDA 2007) as an "Eco System Restoration Project" to store and release low flows between hydro cycles as was originally intended in the authorization of Keystone Dam.  Other than that it would require an Act of Congress (with significant re-occurring funding) to offset the value of the power generation in order to modify the water rights in Keystone to include an environmental and/or ascetic release which the Corps has studied extensively and found not to be a practical solution.    


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 18, 2020, 12:33:49 pm
I'm curious about the backlash/opposition to this and the response from the City.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/waterway-warriors-zink-dam-objectors-fight-for-a-natural-arkansas-river/article_d35d0e26-aeb1-5bee-8bcc-7a0ee762071b.html)

https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y (https://docdro.id/dw3G88Y)

Then I'm highly skeptical they'll even meet the new revised budget. The things in Vision 2025 have all been a combination of disappointing and far over budget (Gilcrease "expansion"/i.e. smaller complete new build; BMX HQ far over budget and demolished baseball stadium for no reason; pedestrian bridge almost double allotted cost estimate).
  Point of order, those are "Vision Tulsa", not Vision 2025 projects which are totally separate and now mostly completed.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 18, 2020, 02:57:02 pm
All of these concerns were vetted during the 404 Permit Review which included an extended public and agency comment periods.  The only endangered species is the Tern and the project includes the construction and maintenance of of a significant nesting island well downstream of the dam that is one of the very first items to be constructed.

With respect to the refinery, Holly has been at the table during the project design and has a known issue and a project to specifically address the bank seepage.

The additional depth provides for both a larger/deeper pool and provides some stored water for release down the recreationally flume between hydro releases.   The long term solution to low flow is the proposed upstream dam that the Corps of Engineers is presently beginning the Plans Phase for (there is a confirmed "Federal Interest" in this Project and funding was included in WRDA 2007) as an "Eco System Restoration Project" to store and release low flows between hydro cycles as was originally intended in the authorization of Keystone Dam.  Other than that it would require an Act of Congress (with significant re-occurring funding) to offset the value of the power generation in order to modify the water rights in Keystone to include an environmental and/or ascetic release which the Corps has studied extensively and found not to be a practical solution.    

Ok that is good to hear. Thank you for the response to my concerns!


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 18, 2020, 03:36:59 pm
Ok that is good to hear. Thank you for the response to my concerns!
No worries and glad you asked, that last editorial/article that Kelly wrote was exceptionally one-sided.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 18, 2020, 05:55:44 pm
All of these concerns were vetted during the 404 Permit Review which included an extended public and agency comment periods.  The only endangered species is the Tern and the project includes the construction and maintenance of of a significant nesting island well downstream of the dam that is one of the very first items to be constructed.

With respect to the refinery, Holly has been at the table during the project design and has a known issue and a project to specifically address the bank seepage.

The additional depth provides for both a larger/deeper pool and provides some stored water for release down the recreationally flume between hydro releases.   The long term solution to low flow is the proposed upstream dam that the Corps of Engineers is presently beginning the Plans Phase for (there is a confirmed "Federal Interest" in this Project and funding was included in WRDA 2007) as an "Eco System Restoration Project" to store and release low flows between hydro cycles as was originally intended in the authorization of Keystone Dam.  Other than that it would require an Act of Congress (with significant re-occurring funding) to offset the value of the power generation in order to modify the water rights in Keystone to include an environmental and/or ascetic release which the Corps has studied extensively and found not to be a practical solution.    

Thanks for this detailed explanation.  Would you say outside of a severe drought in the OK/KS/CO watershed that this new dam will create the intended Zink Lake at some degree of varying depth?  A constant level Lake would allow water recreation in the lake like rowing, stand up paddle boarding and kayaking in addition to the whitewater kayaking in the flume.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 19, 2020, 01:32:13 pm
Outside of drought, as I recall the projections (which are based on historical flow data) when strictly in a pool preservation mode (including a round-the-clock minimum 50cfs discharge down the flume) we believe the lake would be at functional for in-lake recreation 90-99% of the time.  But if you add in larger recreational or environmental discharges that may go down, depending upon timing, local flows, Keystone releases and maintenance conditions.  

The interesting part is this will all become tools of the "Adaptive Management Plan." used to operate the facility, something that the original lake never had.    


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 19, 2020, 02:14:29 pm
Outside of drought, as I recall the projections (which are based on historical flow data) when strictly in a pool preservation mode (including a round-the-clock minimum 50cfs discharge down the flume) we believe the lake would be at functional for in-lake recreation 90-99% of the time.  But if you add in larger recreational or environmental discharges that may go down, depending upon timing, local flows, Keystone releases and maintenance conditions.  

The interesting part is this will all become tools of the "Adaptive Management Plan." used to operate the facility, something that the original lake never had.    

Do you foresee being able to have rental operations for kayaks adjacent to the flume, and would this be operated by RiverParks?  Not sure if they could do stand up paddleboarding, maybe further back from the dam/whitewater flume.  I would love to be able to rent a kayak out on Zink Lake and go from the Gathering Place over to Blue Rose and up by the Rt 66 bridge.  I've seen kayaks and rowers out there but never in large numbers.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 20, 2020, 10:13:13 am
Do you foresee being able to have rental operations for kayaks adjacent to the flume, and would this be operated by RiverParks?  Not sure if they could do stand up paddleboarding, maybe further back from the dam/whitewater flume.  I would love to be able to rent a kayak out on Zink Lake and go from the Gathering Place over to Blue Rose and up by the Rt 66 bridge.  I've seen kayaks and rowers out there but never in large numbers.
Unsure, but the potential is there.  This is likely a question for the River Parks Authority.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 20, 2020, 10:26:41 am
Unsure, but the potential is there.  This is likely a question for the River Parks Authority.

Might be a question for River Parks too - but is it even permitted for rental businesses to set up facilities to rent out kayaks, paddle boards, etc.? Or would something like that have to go through the Corps or something else?

Beyond just having water present, what will really make that area feel so much different is if people are actually utilizing the new lake. Frankly that's what make the 'vibe' in Austin seem so different from many other cities is there's hundreds of people out on the water every day and they have 20-30 different places to rent kayaks, paddle boards, swam boats, etc. along Towne Lake and I'd love to see that along the shoreline in Tulsa too.

I seem to remember that the engineering of this new dam is supposed to make being out on the water a lot safer right? The last one I believe there were a lot of current issues near the damn that made it dangerous for water recreation.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 20, 2020, 01:59:10 pm
Might be a question for River Parks too - but is it even permitted for rental businesses to set up facilities to rent out kayaks, paddle boards, etc.? Or would something like that have to go through the Corps or something else?

Beyond just having water present, what will really make that area feel so much different is if people are actually utilizing the new lake. Frankly that's what make the 'vibe' in Austin seem so different from many other cities is there's hundreds of people out on the water every day and they have 20-30 different places to rent kayaks, paddle boards, swam boats, etc. along Towne Lake and I'd love to see that along the shoreline in Tulsa too.

I seem to remember that the engineering of this new dam is supposed to make being out on the water a lot safer right? The last one I believe there were a lot of current issues near the damn that made it dangerous for water recreation.
 
That would still be with the River Parks Authority as they manage/control all the available shore line access and the USACE has no jurisdiction other than for regulatory compliance via the 404 and related permits.

I agree completely and believe activity is critical.

Yes I would consider this dam design to be "safer" than before but it is still a flowing river to be respected.  Interestingly, one of the reasons for making the dam higher is/was actually safety as by making the dam higher the pool becomes longer and provides larger boatable area further from the dam for in-lake activities and downstream there are multiple measures intended to reduce the roller effects associated with flow over any dam.  


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 20, 2020, 04:08:52 pm
Might be a question for River Parks too - but is it even permitted for rental businesses to set up facilities to rent out kayaks, paddle boards, etc.? Or would something like that have to go through the Corps or something else?

Beyond just having water present, what will really make that area feel so much different is if people are actually utilizing the new lake. Frankly that's what make the 'vibe' in Austin seem so different from many other cities is there's hundreds of people out on the water every day and they have 20-30 different places to rent kayaks, paddle boards, swam boats, etc. along Towne Lake and I'd love to see that along the shoreline in Tulsa too.

I seem to remember that the engineering of this new dam is supposed to make being out on the water a lot safer right? The last one I believe there were a lot of current issues near the damn that made it dangerous for water recreation.

A few differences between Tulsa and Austin in this regard:
1) I believe Lady Bird Lake is controlled by the City of Austin, much easier to deal with than the USACE which controls the Arkansas (RiverParks controls the banks)
2) The Arkansas is nearly 3x wider than Lady Bird Lake so it can be rougher especially on days with strong north and south winds
3) The Arkansas has a higher flow rate and stronger current, not sure how the new dam will affect that
4) There is a dam that creates Lady Bird Lake but it's a traditional dam not a "low water dam"
5) There are more industrial zones upstream of the river in Tulsa, in Austin it's mostly residential until you get to downtown

Just saying there are some challenges Tulsa has that Austin does not. 


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 20, 2020, 10:02:15 pm
A few differences between Tulsa and Austin in this regard:
1) I believe Lady Bird Lake is controlled by the City of Austin, much easier to deal with than the USACE which controls the Arkansas (RiverParks controls the banks)
2) The Arkansas is nearly 3x wider than Lady Bird Lake so it can be rougher especially on days with strong north and south winds
3) The Arkansas has a higher flow rate and stronger current, not sure how the new dam will affect that
4) There is a dam that creates Lady Bird Lake but it's a traditional dam not a "low water dam"
5) There are more industrial zones upstream of the river in Tulsa, in Austin it's mostly residential until you get to downtown

Just saying there are some challenges Tulsa has that Austin does not. 

For sure there's a good number of advantages to Towne Lake that make it more recreational friendly like you mentioned. The shoreline has a much steeper topographically that allows the pool level to be a lot higher there in comparison to the Arkansas. Just am hoping that the new dam would make it a bit safer for recreational uses like kayaking in that area for parts of the year like late spring through summer. There will be periods of the year during early spring/fall when heavy rains probably will cause Zink Lake to not be the best place for those actives when the water flow is very fast. But having people out on the river I think would really change the feeling of the area and be something more unique you don't see in many cities outside of places like Austin, especially if we can get some redevelopment along the West Bank along the city owned land and the concrete plant to the north. 


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on August 21, 2020, 11:39:31 am
For sure there's a good number of advantages to Towne Lake that make it more recreational friendly like you mentioned. The shoreline has a much steeper topographically that allows the pool level to be a lot higher there in comparison to the Arkansas. Just am hoping that the new dam would make it a bit safer for recreational uses like kayaking in that area for parts of the year like late spring through summer. There will be periods of the year during early spring/fall when heavy rains probably will cause Zink Lake to not be the best place for those actives when the water flow is very fast. But having people out on the river I think would really change the feeling of the area and be something more unique you don't see in many cities outside of places like Austin, especially if we can get some redevelopment along the West Bank along the city owned land and the concrete plant to the north. 

Absolutely, the whitewater flume alone will be an amenity few cities have especially outside of the Mountain West.  That combined with the new bridge will make that a really cool area.  I would love to one day see the concrete plant turned into a park space but with more open space for outdoor concerts and events, basically an enlarged River West festival park, with some kind of cultural attraction and improved harbor area at the Cove for water activities.

(https://hot-town-images.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/kotv/production/2017/June/5/the-gateway-design-selected-as-tulsas-new-pedestrian-bridge.1496674344000-0.jpeg)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Arkansas Rio Gator on January 19, 2021, 09:41:00 pm
http://www.quadrelec.com/public/zink%20dam-promises%20made.pdf

Looks like no one had posted this.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: shavethewhales on January 25, 2021, 07:33:54 pm
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-council-has-more-questions-on-need-to-build-new-pedestrian-bridge-over-arkansas-river/article_8ad8ab64-5f36-11eb-b0ac-8f3ffe73c385.html#tracking-source=home-the-latest

Looks like the movement is picking up steam!

Now would have been such a great time to be building those new piers...


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on January 26, 2021, 11:09:14 am
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-council-has-more-questions-on-need-to-build-new-pedestrian-bridge-over-arkansas-river/article_8ad8ab64-5f36-11eb-b0ac-8f3ffe73c385.html#tracking-source=home-the-latest

Looks like the movement is picking up steam!

Now would have been such a great time to be building those new piers...

Doesn't sound like this stops construction just that they will provide more info on why they are replacing the bridge.  

Quote
Jeff Stava, director and trustee of Tulsa’s Gathering Place LLC., said demolition of the old bridge and construction of the new one will begin as soon as the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers issues permits, which is imminent.

Quote
Councilor Jeannie Cue said city engineers have told her there is no way to save the bridge but that she wants a public discussion of the issue to ensure that everyone understands the reasoning.

“I am hearing from people who want more information about why we can’t save the bridge,” Cue said. “We just want answers for our constituents.”


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Arkansas Rio Gator on January 26, 2021, 05:18:58 pm
You are BOTH right. Momentum is still picking up (and yes! You're right about the piers heh). On the other hand, it appears that some have NO intention of listening to the public interest on this issue at all. Many requests to have this put on a regular meeting agenda, so the public can actually discuss it in public forum, have been denied.

When that bridge is demolished, remember, the public was NEVER given a legitimate say in this. The public was told that there was no choice, back when; that there were no good options; etc. That was not true. And even today, many are saying, don't demolish it, give it another evaluation. And, once again, by all indications, the public is going to be denied the chance to keep this historic bridge.

I guess I should post a little of the new stuff on the bridge thread, maybe some today and maybe some another day...

P.S. As for the dam, I don't know the facts, but I did find that document interesting.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Red Arrow on January 27, 2021, 09:17:56 am
Follow the money.  There is money to be made both in destroying the Pedestrian Bridge and building a new one.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: patric on January 27, 2021, 08:55:27 pm
Follow the money.  There is money to be made both in destroying the Pedestrian Bridge and building a new one.

They engineered the necessity to replace it.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/its-too-late-to-save-tulsas-old-pedestrian-bridge-engineer-says/article_aec8205e-60b7-11eb-810a-5f5ebabf5ac5.html


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Arkansas Rio Gator on January 27, 2021, 11:04:51 pm
They engineered the necessity to replace it.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/its-too-late-to-save-tulsas-old-pedestrian-bridge-engineer-says/article_aec8205e-60b7-11eb-810a-5f5ebabf5ac5.html

Well said, Patric and Arrow.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: buffalodan on January 28, 2021, 02:13:09 pm
Kinda getting back to the dam side of this, has anybody seen a timeline for the construction. I know it is 2 years for the whole thing, but didn't know if they are anticipating having the dam done before the bridge, or what that would look like during phasing. I'm really curious what it looks like May-July this year as the river gets up and hope that by next may they are able to have it looking a bit more like a lake.


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: SXSW on January 28, 2021, 02:34:03 pm
Kinda getting back to the dam side of this, has anybody seen a timeline for the construction. I know it is 2 years for the whole thing, but didn't know if they are anticipating having the dam done before the bridge, or what that would look like during phasing. I'm really curious what it looks like May-July this year as the river gets up and hope that by next may they are able to have it looking a bit more like a lake.

Groundbreaking for the dam was in August.  The bridge hasn’t started construction yet, waiting on permits from the Corps but should be very soon.  This is the only timeline I could find from a TW article in May; I would think the bridge is probably more like early 2023.  It would be nice to have them both completed before summer 2023 and the 5 year anniversary of the opening of the Gathering Place in September 2023.  The Children’s Museum will be done in 2022 and the rest of Phase 2 south of 31st by early 2023 so just “Phase 3” along Crow Creek will be the last incomplete portion.

Quote
Zachary said he is hopeful that construction can begin in September and be completed in 2023. Work on the new pedestrian bridge over the Arkansas River is expected to begin at about the same time and be completed in late 2022.

 https://tulsaworld.com/news/zink-dam-construction-bids-higher-than-expected-project-still-expect-to-begin-in-the-fall/article_4722697e-e1d6-5dff-98e2-3c3aeb4170c8.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/zink-dam-construction-bids-higher-than-expected-project-still-expect-to-begin-in-the-fall/article_4722697e-e1d6-5dff-98e2-3c3aeb4170c8.html)


Title: Re: Zink Dam Rehabilitation Project
Post by: Arkansas Rio Gator on January 28, 2021, 07:03:37 pm
Dan, did you read the dam notes up there (which I posted, but did not write; I have not put time into studying the dam)? Might address what you are wondering about looking like a lake.