The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I'm excited. Will this replace what is now in Owen Park?

Here’s the site plan (from a Board of Adjustment meeting on 11/12/19, a mailing sent to neighbors related to parking issues).

(http://i.imgur.com/NE1rppO.jpg)

Yeah, I'm going to be that guy and say that's not nearly enough parking. Most of the time I'm against big parking lots like all good urbanists, but parking at GP sucks already and it's been an issue for the entire area. Add a huge new kids museum on top of that and I simply don't know how it's going to work with even less spaces. They simply need a big donkey parking garage, and they needed it before the place opened.

Yeah, I'm going to be that guy and say that's not nearly enough parking. Most of the time I'm against big parking lots like all good urbanists, but parking at GP sucks already and it's been an issue for the entire area. Add a huge new kids museum on top of that and I simply don't know how it's going to work with even less spaces. They simply need a big donkey parking garage, and they needed it before the place opened.

Encourage Uber and more transit use. 

If we can build places that are very desirable to go to, Downtown (Guthrie Green/Arts District), Peoria BRT corridor (which connects to Cherry Street & the Pearl), 11th street BRT corridor, The Gathering Place, Transit from downtown toTthe Gathering Place.... and they all have the "parking problem" perhaps we can finally get people to begin using more Uber and Transit.

Really once you do either of those a few times, you can begin creating a new habit.  It's just getting peoples thoughts to "remember" the other options.  We use Uber all the time.

If the Mid-Town/Downtown and adjacent crowd (which is a significant number) can use those options more, it will free up parking for those who live further away. 

You don't want parking too convenient. You want to have a little pressure to get people to get that habit of using the other options. Once they do start using those options more, it begins to "bend the curve" grow the transit, grow the desirability and density, etc.

If we can't do it when the rewards are there to entice people, we certainly won't do it otherwise. Seize the opportunity.

You and I can be a part of helping that transition.  Tell your friends, "Hey lets Uber here and do dinner." etc.

Are you all happy with the exterior design?  Does it capture the imagination of a child or creativity of what's inside...inspirational?  Or could it be a building that as easily could house a community college or an office? Just thinking of other children's museums across the county that bring more whimsy and wonder in building design. 

Are you all happy with the exterior design?  Does it capture the imagination of a child or creativity of what's inside...inspirational?  Or could it be a building that as easily could house a community college or an office? Just thinking of other children's museums across the county that bring more whimsy and wonder in building design.  

I’m surprised they didn’t do a two level parking garage with one level underground.  

Looks very sterile and "corporate".  Reminds me of some of the spots they tried this sort of thing at Epcot that are pretty much empty and abandoned because they are so boring compared to the more interesting and magical educational elements elsewhere.  Children, of all ages, deserve magic.

If I am ever able to expand the DECOPOLIS Discovitorium I will show em how its done.  :P

Having this portion of the park completed will be nice but I’m most looking forward to the planned pathway along Crow Creek to Brookside.  With that you can get breakfast/lunch in Brookside and walk over to the museum and park.  It also opens up access to the river trails via the underpass at Riverside

Is this still only an idea?  Is there a construction start date?  It would be the cherry on top of the whole sundae. 

Any new word on the mixed use complex for 31st & Peoria?  Is that dead?  late afternoon September dinner at an outdoor bistro there and a leisurely stroll to Discovery/Gathering Place and back on a busy lighted trail - that's the high life.   

It’s dead. The neighbors would prefer a private estate or gated community to a commercial development with publicly accessible amenities. Because “traffic.”

If you want to do something with the site, the owner is currently listing it for $24MM.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3105-S-Peoria-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74105/22276793_zpid

I haven’t seen a construction start date for the Crow Creek trail and I believe they are still acquiring properties and working with the city.  The underpass at Peoria would likely require a full rebuild of the bridge over the creek which is probably a few years out but it would be great to at least have the trail all the way to Peoria.  

A portion of the new trail will be opening later this fall by Discovery Lab.  This is the portion that goes underneath Riverside and connects to the river trail.  So at least for now you can park by Discovery Lab and access the river trails without crossing Riverside.

Here is an older TW article about it:  https://tulsaworld.com/archive/trail-plan-cuts-path-to-river/article_07098ce7-6317-5107-859d-ff398c7786c5.html (https://tulsaworld.com/archive/trail-plan-cuts-path-to-river/article_07098ce7-6317-5107-859d-ff398c7786c5.html)

I’ve heard from GKFF people that they have the path from the river to Crow Creek Meadow, but they’re at an impasse with property owners between that point and Peoria and there’s no current way forward - so they’re just hoping folks see the light (or move). Maybe they’ll build to the Meadow on 33rd Pl as a trail head until they can get homeowners between there and the old Boy Scout parcel to sell an easement.

I’ve noted that GKFF or proxies have been acquiring a lot of strategic parcels in that corridor in addition to the trail path.

It’s dead. The neighbors would prefer a private estate or gated community to a commercial development with publicly accessible amenities. Because “traffic.”

If you want to do something with the site, the owner is currently listing it for $24MM.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3105-S-Peoria-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74105/22276793_zpid

These are the same people that still complain that the Gathering Place tore down "that beautiful old house" (aka the Jefferson Davis lookalike house) because one rich person's private home is more important than a vibrant community space.

These are the same people that still complain that the Gathering Place tore down "that beautiful old house" (aka the Jefferson Davis lookalike house) because one rich person's private home is more important than a vibrant community space.

Many who complain about "that beautiful old house" being torn down complain because a vibrant community space and the stately landmark mansion were never mutually exclusive.  You can design a park any way you want.  The house could easily have been a highlight event space for weddings, etc.  From jump I believe the Kaiser folks wanted the house gone because of its "confederacy link."  This was before we fully understood woke culture.  This was a consideration for wokeness --- whether you agree or not.  They wanted a new inclusive gathering space for all Tulsans and I think one of the prerequisites was to tear down the Blair mansion.       

I think many might disagree what constitutes a "stately landmark mansion." Every big house that is built isn't a "stately landmark" just because it's big and was built some number of years ago.

And yeah, if it was indeed designed to look like Jefferson Davis' house, then good riddance. What is in that space now is infinitely better.

I and hundreds of thousands of others drove by it and the expansive yard every work day.  Me for 30 years.  It was the encyclopedia definition of "stately." As much a Tulsa landmark as the Welcome to Las Vegas sign in Vegas or the field of wind turbines near Palm Springs.  Kaiser could do as he wished with it - he owned it.  I was always good with that.  But understand what you're talking about without the uninformed projection.  That's all I ask.

It was a copy of a house that was part of the defense of slavery. It wasn't historic, it was a copy. There are many examples of copies of that house around the country, in fact I lived in such a copy in Florida as a kid. Nothing special about the the copy on Riverside at all.

This is ridiculous. Do not conflate historic with landmark. Who said it was historic.  I don't care that it's not there now or then. 99% of people upset at the time were not operating on the rationale that it was "part of the defense of slavery" and they thought it should stay for that reason.  It never entered their minds.  Dear Lord, it was a huge one-of-a-kind lawn and home they saw every day for decades. That's it. It was a landmark on the Riverside Drive.  A Confederate link-reason for demolition was kept from the public. It could have been the stated reason that it was too big to move.  Who knows. They did tear it down unannounced early one weekend morning.

The Eagle's Nest is a landmark too but I'd tear that f*cker down with my bare hands if there was a copy of it here in Tulsa.

The Blair Mansion was a crap copy of a crap house built by a rich a**hole who was either really racist or really obtuse. Why would someone build a copy of that turd when you have that incredible land and a bottomless bank account? Intended or not, that house existed as a normalization and glorification of the Confederacy made even worse by it sort of hiding it's origin. Just like all the Confederate statues, they exist as silent propaganda. Make it look like how noble these generals and soldiers were with their elegant and grand mansions and plantations, all the while hiding who these people were, what they stood for, and what those pathetic traitors tried to do to our country. The Blair Mansion served to silently glorify the antebellum south and it did it in a big way - by being somewhere that everyone drove by and got to see daily for decades so they would all say "oh what a great mansion" and "what a wonderful Tulsa landmark" even after knowing it's history. Piss on the Confederacy, piss on Jefferson Davis, and piss on that crap copy of his retirement home.

The Eagle's Nest is a landmark too but I'd tear that f*cker down with my bare hands if there was a copy of it here in Tulsa.

The Blair Mansion was a crap copy of a crap house built by a rich a**hole who was either really racist or really obtuse. Why would someone build a copy of that turd when you have that incredible land and a bottomless bank account? Intended or not, that house existed as a normalization and glorification of the Confederacy made even worse by it sort of hiding it's origin. Just like all the Confederate statues, they exist as silent propaganda. Make it look like how noble these generals and soldiers were with their elegant and grand mansions and plantations, all the while hiding who these people were, what they stood for, and what those pathetic traitors tried to do to our country. The Blair Mansion served to silently glorify the antebellum south and it did it in a big way - by being somewhere that everyone drove by and got to see daily for decades so they would all say "oh what a great mansion" and "what a wonderful Tulsa landmark" even after knowing it's history. Piss on the Confederacy, piss on Jefferson Davis, and piss on that crap copy of his retirement home.

Please follow linear logic from what I originally wrote. Why were so may people upset at the time is what I was commenting on. None of the confederacy angles came up when the house was demolished. As far as I know. Check the social media time machine.  My only point is people were used to seeing it as they drove Riverside. PERIOD. I don't think the vast majority had any idea what it might have stood for.  Did you hear any talk of that when it was torn down?   The a**hole you speak of built the house 50 or 60 years ago, I think.  The social justice perspective was not as strong as it is now... it wasn't 6-7 years ago either.  Glad you're venting --- sort of answering a question no one asked.  At the risk of making this Twitter, I'm done.  

B. B. Blair, a native of Davenport, Iowa, was the son of a Mississippi riverboat captain. He came west at the end of World War I and initially worked in the land department of independent oilman Waite Phillips (for whom TU’s Phillips Hall is named). He eventually started his own oil company and became very successful.

Mr. Blair considered The University of Tulsa to be a great institution and demonstrated his faith in TU by financially supporting many facets of its operations, including athletics, academic programs, scholarships and the TU Annual Fund.

He had a penchant for simplicity and order and an appreciation for beauty that was shared by his wife, Penelope. Mr. Blair became involved in campus beautification, especially plans to redesign the “U,” saying that the appearance of the campus entrance should reflect and complement the University’s academic reputation. A modest man who avoided publicity, he had to be persuaded to allow the campus to honor him by naming the “U” Blair Drive.

Penelope “Penny” Mills Blair was born in Jacksonville, Florida, and graduated from Florida A&M in 1929. She later moved to Tulsa, where she married B. B. Blair in 1936. She was a life-long member of the Tulsa Garden Club and charter member of the Philbrook Museum of Art.

Mr. Blair died in 1980 at the age of 85, and Mrs. Blair died in 1995 at the age of 88. His namesake foundation established the B. B. Blair Petroleum Engineering Scholarship in 1981 in tribute to Mr. Blair and his ties to the oil industry and The University of Tulsa.

A note on the Blair Mansion, it was designed by John Duncan Forsyth and built in 1952.

https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry?entry=FO060 (https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry?entry=FO060)

Forsyth also designed these notable buildings

Webster High School

(https://resources.finalsite.net/images/f_auto,q_auto,t_image_size_2/v1602176417/tulsaschoolsorg/n95ykuus9b1rswrjn7up/Webster.jpg)

The EW Marland Mansion in Ponca City

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Marland_Mansion_Entrance_Front.jpg/1024px-Marland_Mansion_Entrance_Front.jpg)

Southern Hills Country Club

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.charitybuzz.com/images/306371/lot_page.jpeg?1502830445)


https://chapman.utulsa.edu/donor/the-blair-foundation/ (https://chapman.utulsa.edu/donor/the-blair-foundation/)

Please follow linear logic from what I originally wrote. Why were so may people upset at the time is what I was commenting on. None of the confederacy angles came up when the house was demolished. As far as I know. Check the social media time machine.

My only point is people were used to seeing it as they drove Riverside. PERIOD.

I don't think the vast majority had any idea what it might have stood for.  Did you hear any talk of that when it was torn down?   The a**hole you speak of built the house 50 or 60 years ago, I think.  The social justice perspective was not as strong as it is now... it wasn't 6-7 years ago either.  Glad you're venting --- sort of answering a question no one asked.  At the risk of making this Twitter, I'm done. 

Forsyth knew what he was doing.  How can we permit anything else he designed to stand.  Tear it all down - just to be safe... and correct.  :)   Thanks for posting these photos.  Did Forsyth also have a hand in Will Rogers High School?    

Was it a shrine to Davis and the Confederacy - probably not intentionally but it was a shrine to the Antebellum South.

No - it was brought up and some people still didn't want it torn down (some reassessed their view and turned their donkey on it). People who still wanted it to stay up were showing their true colors as Confederate apologists, racists, and generally idiots. These people were handed an inflection point and doubled-down.Yep - I got that. But landmark is a term that gets thrown around a lot. Frankly nothing really changed on Riverside for a long time so that house was as much of a landmark as the land it was on as was the pedestrian bridge as was that old little western town that was a kids playground on the west side of the river and on and on and on. I sure didn't see that little hoard of people show up to protest the pedestrian bridge being torn down but correct me if I'm wrong.They'd have to be living in a cave if they didn't know as it was mentioned in the Tulsa World, Batesline (though only in the comments because Batesline), and other news sources. I think most people, like me, thought there was something historic about it because it had always been there but once I heard modeled after Jefferson Davis' wrinkle ranch well screw that place. The people who still wanted it left up (and are still pining about it) are the same ones who claim statues of Confederates are in some way historical. Was it a shrine to Davis and the Confederacy - probably not intentionally but it was a shrine to the Antebellum South. It was romanticizing how wonderful the South was, slavery and all, before those horrible Yankees ruined everything. Why they still call it "the War on Northern Aggression" in parts of the South. Why for over 100 years after Lincoln was assassinated many Southern homes had pictures of John Wilkes Booth up (and he's still considered a Southern hero in many places). So yes people who initially defended that house can get a pass for ignorance (I'm in that boat) but once they knew and kept on welp you might wanna check their closets for little white robes and pointy hats. The Civil War didn't end in 1865.


And I blame the venting on a lack of coffee...  ;)

No - it was brought up and some people still didn't want it torn down (some reassessed their view and turned their donkey on it). People who still wanted it to stay up were showing their true colors as Confederate apologists, racists, and generally idiots. These people were handed an inflection point and doubled-down.Yep - I got that. But landmark is a term that gets thrown around a lot. Frankly nothing really changed on Riverside for a long time so that house was as much of a landmark as the land it was on as was the pedestrian bridge as was that old little western town that was a kids playground on the west side of the river and on and on and on. I sure didn't see that little hoard of people show up to protest the pedestrian bridge being torn down but correct me if I'm wrong.They'd have to be living in a cave if they didn't know as it was mentioned in the Tulsa World, Batesline (though only in the comments because Batesline), and other news sources. I think most people, like me, thought there was something historic about it because it had always been there but once I heard modeled after Jefferson Davis' wrinkle ranch well screw that place. The people who still wanted it left up (and are still pining about it) are the same ones who claim statues of Confederates are in some way historical. Was it a shrine to Davis and the Confederacy - probably not intentionally but it was a shrine to the Antebellum South. It was romanticizing how wonderful the South was, slavery and all, before those horrible Yankees ruined everything. Why they still call it "the War on Northern Aggression" in parts of the South. Why for over 100 years after Lincoln was assassinated many Southern homes had pictures of John Wilkes Booth up (and he's still considered a Southern hero in many places). So yes people who initially defended that house can get a pass for ignorance (I'm in that boat) but once they knew and kept on welp you might wanna check their closets for little white robes and pointy hats. The Civil War didn't end in 1865.  


And I blame the venting on a lack of coffee...  ;)

I understand tearing down specific "copies" of houses but what's next, tear down every example of the Antebellum South?  Art Deco because it was built by rich people?

Lol! In my defense I never said anything about Forsyth - he was hired to design something based on the client's wishes full stop and frankly kinda phoned it in - he really doesn't even need to be mentioned in relation to that house since it looks like he worked on it for about 30 minutes. Blair seemed decent enough, or at least as far as philanthropy goes. Still wonder why of all the houses in the South that you could model your dream house after - why that really pedestrian one? Why not the main house from the Evergreen Plantation? From a strictly architectural perspective it's a much better looking pile of bricks. The Blair Mansion was an incredibly forgettable building.

I don't know if Forsyth had anything to do with Will Rogers HS - I think that was mainly Koberling and Senter.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/d9/75/b7d975290725fc1ae2a27cdce5b008ab.jpg)

And I blame the venting on a lack of coffee...  ;)

Keurig is your friend!

I think now we should go after Crest and Colgate instead of going over this old settled ground.  What kind of bigot racists push whitening toothpaste?  What's wrong with natural or yellow teeth?  They must be stopped.  It's gone on too long.    

Let's go for it!

While we're at it, let's ban white paint. After all, I'm not white, I'm a pink skin per the Andorians on Star Trek Enterprise.  :-)

:).  I hesitate on being part of turning this great forum for ideas, development, architecture, Tulsa --- into Twitter.  Hopefully, done with it!

But Keurig is not environmentally friendly, at least not the original cup versions which were not recyclable.

I get a bit tired of the knee jerk responses so I add a few of my own occasionally.

I get a bit tired of the knee jerk responses so I add a few of my own occasionally.

Yeah, but think how boring it would be without them!

Wow! Just now catching up on last July's posts?   ;D