The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tulsaworld.com/entertainment/tulsa-pac-unveils-new-long-range-plan-for-facility-improvements/article_1b9ae2d6-3f50-51e8-b248-39d20d70d1de.amp.html

$320 million?? With any luck the scope of this plan will be greatly reduced to a $10 million renovation and implemented 10 years from now. Anyways...thoughts?

I like it, this is the kind of BOLD vision that will set us apart from our regional peer cities.  Tulsa is an arts town and should have a premier performing arts center downtown. 

I'm glad to see they're thinking big.

I like the design. The current build lacks transparency, leaving it looking dead and foreboding. However its hard to determine if the East and North sides are adequately activated to bring some street side interest. If in fact a new theater could be constructed for less then perhaps a very large new theater, parking garage, and apartments with street side retail could be constructed on the PAC east lot (assuming the Flarehty and Collins deal fell/falls through.) Then the old PAC could be demolished and replaced with a new mixed-use tower on one of the most desirable lots in downtown.

I'd be fine with either one. But I'm going to disagree with Rattle Trap. A small renovation sounds good on the surface but if it doesn't help us bring in big new things, its not worth it. The BOK center was a huge expense but it has put Tulsa on the map for a lot of people who never considered us before.

I was just being sarcastic. I think a renovation of this scale would be great for Tulsa. I just don't believe it would happen any time soon given the $320 million preliminary price tag.

Might as well build new on the lot next door, surrounded by a mixed-use development. A fantastic PAC is going up at the OSU campus in Stillwater, surely Tulsa can find a way to fund a transformative new facility. The current PAC spot can also be mixed use, or Williams Green can be expanded into an arts related green space with outdoor staging, etc. This whole area could thrive.

In this case, it looks like building a new facility would be the far better option:


That is ridiculous to spend $60 million more and still have the same old main theater. $260 million is plenty ambitious enough. There are plenty of empty parking lots. I agree with you that making it part of the new development across the street would be ideal.

The article mentions a new theater at 3rd & Cincinnati, not sure if that is the SW, NE or NW corner? 

At 40+ years old, I assume the PAC will soon need a major renovation or replacement.  But wow, $320 million seems more than just dream-like, that is delusional.  Wouldn’t that make it the second most expensive civic project in Tulsa’s history?  And first place (The Gathering Place) was mostly privately funded.

I think that's the going rate for world class PACs these days.  The Winspear Opera House in Dallas cost $320 million ten years ago.

Definitely eye-catching

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/c4/8c49b4ab-4068-5960-8bbe-dff23ebe97c4/5c9d12d3d9148.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C599)

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/d4/fd42294f-7910-5318-b5a7-4f8bb96f7886/5c9d12d300ded.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C741)

Regarding the expense, I'd say its an investment worth making. The arts is one of Tulsa's largest industries and perhaps the largest tourist draw we have. If $320 Million is what it takes to make a big splash, lets do it. http://www.artsimpacttulsa.org/ (http://www.artsimpacttulsa.org/)

However, the more I think about this, the more I think it should probably be a new theater.

Imagine glass store fronts on 2nd street fronting a new multi-level parking garage. Above, a park plaza that connects by sky bridge over Cincinnati through the location of the current PAC to an expanded William's Green. Fronting 3rd a new PAC with a larger capacity main theater and larger secondary and tertiary theaters. A mixed use tower built on the corner of 2nd and Detroit and a mixed use tower on the remainder of the old PAC site not taken up by the expanded William's Green.

I did a little digging on some of the big architecturally significant concert halls constructed recently. The costs are all over the place. This leaves me thinking that if we're going to spend some sizable fraction of a Billion dollars on this project we should get something that architecture nerds around the world make a pilgrimage to see and everyone who comes to visit us wants to take a selfie in front. That much money should buy a landmark. The more I look at it the less I think the proposal is that.


Philharmonie de Paris - main hall seats 2400 - construction 2006 - 2015 - final cost $488 million

Walt Disney Concert Hall, Los Angeles - m.h. seats 2265 - const. 1994 - 2003 - $274 million

Oslo Opera House - m.h. seats 1358 - const. 2000 - 2008 - $560 million

Palau de les Arts Reina Sofia, Valencia - m.h. seats ~1400 (2 main halls?) - const. 1997(?) - 2005 - $134 million (part of ~$1 billion development)

Guangzhou Opera House - m.h. seats 1804 - const. 2005 - 2010 - $200 million

National Center for the Performing Arts, Beijing - m.h. (x2) seats 2416, 2017 - const. 2001 - 2007 - $300 million

Just don't hire a famous architect who will give you a smushed roll of duct tape.

I don't see the merit in keeping the current building at a cost of $60 million. The current building, while fine, has zero architectural style and nothing really worth saving, especially at that price.

Why not build new in the Arts District? Trade the current site with BOK for their lot across the street from AHHA, where the OKPOP museum was originally going to go.

Really? I like the BOK Center and I don't like this concept as is, it looks like an airport terminal.

What’s not to love?  Nice big windows so you can look out at the surface parking lots that cover the 3 other corners of the intersection.

Hopefully those get developed with a $320M investment across the street and being literally next door to one of the most active districts downtown.  Not to mention the significant investment the area is/will see at Santa Fe Square. 

Perhaps, but in 40+ years the existence of an active and busy PAC has not lead to any spin off development on any of those corners.  I know the times are a changing downtown, but it’s not a given that a much more expensive (and better looking) version of the PAC will do anything to push the needle on development in that area that wouldn’t otherwise happen.  Plus, I suspect more than a few suburban PAC patrons would be very unhappy to see their plentiful surface parking lots get redeveloped.

I agree. They will do an economic study and show that there's virtually no way even an extremely active new PAC schedule could justify $260 million, much less $320 million PAC. Not to mention all the overhead that currently exists.

That would require a monumental shift in activity for the PAC, multiplying the number of ticket sales and big events. It might not be impossible, but sounds unlikely to over be done. Maybe they're just dangling it out there hoping for some patron of the arts billionaire to sweep in. The list of other world-class opera houses and the cities and budgets shows how ridiculous the ask on this one is. Great to dream but you've got to be at least somewhat realistic too, especially considering the proposed building which is very nice, but not a world-class architectural ornament.

Either propose a world class architectural wonder that Tulsans can rally behind or ask for far less than what they did. The BOK Center didn't have to be an architectural wonder but it was still a big disappointment architectually; although it seems cheap now after seeing the price tag of this!

I really think we SHOULD have an architectural wonder and the proposal is not that.

I'm also having trouble with the projected cost, especially because we all know that number will only go up if the project moves forward. Once a project goes over $300 million there always seems to be a snowball effect where everything magically gets more expensive just because it's part of this giant mega-project. I'm still trying to get my head around the Gathering Place's cost...

BUT, I do think a new/greatly expanded PAC is worth a massive investment. Maybe not 300 million, but 200 million wouldn't be out of the question - even if the supposed economic impact isn't quite that high. It's worth investing in things like this to emphasis the arts in our culture and put this city in the spotlight. It should indeed be a world class architectural marvel though, preferably with art deco features.

Those renderings look more plain every time I see them, and you have to consider what it would look like in reality. Definitely time to go back to the drawing board.

I will say I think Beck Design does good work, and I like the facility they designed at OSU in Stillwater as well as the BA PAC. Both have these large glass lobbies that I think the PAC needs to become more transparent and engage the surrounding streets, unlike the concrete bunker we have now. 

The OSU PAC
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21558822_1560164974046091_1413960213036277522_n.png?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=0b1307b80b382e5da176363a5cfffc8f&oe=5D4EE84F)

And this cool Tulsa riverfront proposal they did but don't provide any other info..
(https://beckdesign.com/project-files/gallery/45-okasa-exterior-aerial-from-river-3jpg.jpg)

https://beckdesign.com/work/okasa (https://beckdesign.com/work/okasa)