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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: swake on January 29, 2019, 11:25:17 am



Title: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on January 29, 2019, 11:25:17 am
Last month the pipeline that runs through the site was replaced. Now it looks like utilities are being moved and there's drilling going on. Maybe for core samples?


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Townsend on January 29, 2019, 11:35:56 am
Gonna be super

(https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.jV7de_Z67HE4dVItgHcXiAHaE7)


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on January 29, 2019, 11:55:18 am
I'm sure the parking lot will be magnificent.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on January 29, 2019, 12:23:27 pm
There is a nearly empty mall at 41st & Yale that could be converted to an outlet mall quickly and inexpensively.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 29, 2019, 04:42:59 pm
There is a nearly empty mall at 41st & Yale that could be converted to an outlet mall quickly and inexpensively.


Will probably sit for a decade or so...then renovate and rejuvenate.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Townsend on January 30, 2019, 12:01:52 pm

Will probably sit for a decade or so...then renovate and rejuvenate.


If we continue with current political leadership, the 41st and Yale mall could be something truly special in a decade or so...

(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.mJXdS3_PsVi3yf0lHSMaowHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300)


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: SXSW on January 30, 2019, 09:34:57 pm
If we continue with current political leadership, the 41st and Yale mall could be something truly special in a decade or so...

(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.mJXdS3_PsVi3yf0lHSMaowHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300)

Care to elaborate? 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Markk on January 31, 2019, 08:54:53 am
If we continue with current political leadership, the 41st and Yale mall could be something truly special in a decade or so...

(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.mJXdS3_PsVi3yf0lHSMaowHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300)

Good movie and excellent short story; but the idea of a mall becoming a setting for such a thing is creepy.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Townsend on January 31, 2019, 12:09:18 pm
Good movie and excellent short story; but the idea of a mall becoming a setting for such a thing is creepy.

They already call them "Mall shootings" in the news blurbs.

We'll have to see how the elections continue to play out.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 31, 2019, 03:24:02 pm
Care to elaborate? 


Hunger Games variant.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on February 21, 2019, 03:07:30 pm
I heard that the final plat and TIF for the outlet mall were approved by the Jenks City Council on Monday. No word on timing, but it seems soon.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: In_Tulsa on February 26, 2019, 06:03:10 pm
It’s getting closer!

https://ktul.com/news/local/city-of-jenks-says-its-on-track-for-2020-opening-of-outlet-mall


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Townsend on February 27, 2019, 11:50:59 am
It’s getting closer!

https://ktul.com/news/local/city-of-jenks-says-its-on-track-for-2020-opening-of-outlet-mall

Quote
The groundbreaking date is still up in the air, but the mayor says the end date to have it built is firm: 2020.

I guess that can be said until it's still empty fields in 2020


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: SXSW on May 23, 2019, 04:01:17 pm
I wonder if they will rethink this location?   :-\

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60704863_432425517544774_4684165584412213248_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=7a25808fbcf38f8e7c4d79d2b9e9aa47&oe=5D5C23AB)


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Red Arrow on May 23, 2019, 05:26:01 pm
I wonder if they will rethink this location?   :-\

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60704863_432425517544774_4684165584412213248_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=7a25808fbcf38f8e7c4d79d2b9e9aa47&oe=5D5C23AB)

They may be counting on a flood to get the insurance.  Since it's a lot more difficult to start a flood than a fire, no one will suspect anything fishy.
 
 ;D



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on May 24, 2019, 07:34:37 am
They may be counting on a flood to get the insurance.  Since it's a lot more difficult to start a flood than a fire, no one will suspect anything fishy.
 
 ;D



Something sure smells fishy.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 24, 2019, 11:00:07 am
I wonder if they will rethink this location?   :-\

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60704863_432425517544774_4684165584412213248_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=7a25808fbcf38f8e7c4d79d2b9e9aa47&oe=5D5C23AB)

It seems so foolish to move forward without drastic changes to the land there. It also seems foolish to builid many of those new developments along the River around 121st and further south which are mostly all flooded at least partially, and many are at risk of full flooding if they have to increase flow rates higher. That whole area is a natural and designed floodplain for the Arkansas River. Some neighborhoods did decent flood mitigation design, but looks like most developers just did the bare minimum and people buy it thinking it won't happen to them.

There needs to be quite an exhaustive infrastructure project to make those far south riverfront areas usable but that probably won't happen. Meanwhile, developers will keep doing what they do and adding some dirt and a ponds and claiming it's ok. This will happen again and probably a bit more frequently than once every 33 years.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Red Arrow on May 24, 2019, 01:36:42 pm
It seems so foolish to move forward without drastic changes to the land there. It also seems foolish to builid many of those new developments along the River around 121st and further south which are mostly all flooded at least partially, and many are at risk of full flooding if they have to increase flow rates higher. That whole area is a natural and designed floodplain for the Arkansas River. Some neighborhoods did decent flood mitigation design, but looks like most developers just did the bare minimum and people buy it thinking it won't happen to them.

There needs to be quite an exhaustive infrastructure project to make those far south riverfront areas usable but that probably won't happen. Meanwhile, developers will keep doing what they do and adding some dirt and a ponds and claiming it's ok. This will happen again and probably a bit more frequently than once every 33 years.

Protecting the houses at 121st and Delaware would make some people down stream really unhappy.  Water has to go somewhere.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on May 24, 2019, 01:40:25 pm
“Develop the river” sounded better as a slogan before this week. Nature and reality have intruded is a serious way.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: patric on May 24, 2019, 07:10:31 pm
“Develop the river” sounded better as a slogan before this week. Nature and reality have intruded is a serious way.

As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies? 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 27, 2019, 06:33:08 pm
As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies? 


Drove by on Sat before the tornadoes.  Also spent some time at Riverwalk in Jenks on Fri afternoon.  Place where I have walked to take pics on Wed was 3 ft underwater by then.  Impressive mess.

Gathering Place had lots of water on some basketball courts west side of Riverside.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Red Arrow on May 27, 2019, 07:45:56 pm
I drove past the future outlet mall area on the Turnpike headed east at about 8:30.  There is some standing water but I was surprised at how much ground was still showing.



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Vision 2025 on May 28, 2019, 09:32:51 am
As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies? 
Bedrock doesn't liquify.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Vision 2025 on May 28, 2019, 09:34:21 am
I drove past the future outlet mall area on the Turnpike headed east at about 8:30.  There is some standing water but I was surprised at how much ground was still showing.


And Jenks is the only community to formally adopt the '86 +1'development standard along the River as the Corridor Master Plan recommended.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on May 28, 2019, 11:52:46 am
And Jenks is the only community to formally adopt the '86 +1'development standard along the River as the Corridor Master Plan recommended.

Top Golf, Riverwalk and the Aquarium built to Jenks codes not only haven't flooded, they remain open.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: patric on May 30, 2019, 11:30:28 am
Bedrock doesn't liquify.

The resort’s hotel tower and expanded gaming and restaurants were built with “675 heavily reinforced concrete piers, eight feet in diameter that are 80 to 87 feet below the ground and socketed to the bedrock,” according to a news release from the resort. “Additionally, the resort complex is further protected from land erosion due to the one-inch thick, solid steel sheet piling surrounding the river side of the property from the hotel tower to the theater. The sheet piling begins at the elevation level of 614 and protects the land all the way to the bedrock elevation level of 588.”

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/river-spirit-resort-announces-it-will-remain-closed-through-june/article_37996e13-dfec-5193-9b24-c969c2842768.html

Interesting.  I recall a few days ago drone pix of their pristine blue swimming pool being flanked by muddy river water as if it were sneaking up on its prey.
The river won.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Conan71 on May 30, 2019, 12:36:23 pm
They may be counting on a flood to get the insurance.  Since it's a lot more difficult to start a flood than a fire, no one will suspect anything fishy.
 
 ;D



Stanley Tanger sure lucked out when he conjured that tornado to level the outlet mall in Stroud.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 31, 2019, 10:00:22 am
The resort’s hotel tower and expanded gaming and restaurants were built with “675 heavily reinforced concrete piers, eight feet in diameter that are 80 to 87 feet below the ground and socketed to the bedrock,” according to a news release from the resort. “Additionally, the resort complex is further protected from land erosion due to the one-inch thick, solid steel sheet piling surrounding the river side of the property from the hotel tower to the theater. The sheet piling begins at the elevation level of 614 and protects the land all the way to the bedrock elevation level of 588.”

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/river-spirit-resort-announces-it-will-remain-closed-through-june/article_37996e13-dfec-5193-9b24-c969c2842768.html

Interesting.  I recall a few days ago drone pix of their pristine blue swimming pool being flanked by muddy river water as if it were sneaking up on its prey.
The river won.

How did the river win? It's close to a historic flood and the hotel is 13 feet above the pool and probably ok and the waters are going back down. It is flooding all the right places as designed (parking lot, huge drainage ditch) and the concrete underground wall is protecting the foundation from erosion. There will be lots of cleaning up and some repairs outside, but the hotel building itself should be largely unaffected.

I guarantee they are banking on that place and while shutting down for a month will hurt badly, all the free press will just make the late summer and fall that much more crowded.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on May 31, 2019, 03:25:53 pm
How did the river win? It's close to a historic flood and the hotel is 13 feet above the pool and probably ok and the waters are going back down. It is flooding all the right places as designed (parking lot, huge drainage ditch) and the concrete underground wall is protecting the foundation from erosion. There will be lots of cleaning up and some repairs outside, but the hotel building itself should be largely unaffected.

I guarantee they are banking on that place and while shutting down for a month will hurt badly, all the free press will just make the late summer and fall that much more crowded.

The river may not have won, but being closed for 6 weeks (at least) while you continue to carry a payroll of 1,600 and having tens of thousands of people viewing pictures of your hotel/casino/resort complex seemingly inundated with flood waters is not exactly a win.  Tie goes to the runner - and in this instance, the river is the runner.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 31, 2019, 03:50:38 pm
The river may not have won, but being closed for 6 weeks (at least) while you continue to carry a payroll of 1,600 and having tens of thousands of people viewing pictures of your hotel/casino/resort complex seemingly inundated with flood waters is not exactly a win.  Tie goes to the runner - and in this instance, the river is the runner.

Nah. If this puts the hotel and/or casino out of business or "totals" the property, then I'll say the river won, but otherwise the Creek Nation has and will continue to make bank (pun intented) on this riverfront property. This looks like major bump, but not one that is beyond the design of the property. 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: patric on May 31, 2019, 06:55:46 pm
People are confused I was talking about the pool?


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on May 31, 2019, 08:28:06 pm
People are confused I was talking about the pool?

How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies? 

This was about the pool?


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: patric on May 31, 2019, 09:06:26 pm
This was about the pool?

Interesting.  I recall a few days ago drone pix of their pristine blue swimming pool being flanked by muddy river water as if it were sneaking up on its prey.
The river won.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 03, 2019, 10:25:05 am


The quote you preceded that with was about the hotel/gaming building designs:

Quote
The resort’s hotel tower and expanded gaming and restaurants were built with “675 heavily reinforced concrete piers, eight feet in diameter that are 80 to 87 feet below the ground and socketed to the bedrock,” according to a news release from the resort. “Additionally, the resort complex is further protected from land erosion due to the one-inch thick, solid steel sheet piling surrounding the river side of the property from the hotel tower to the theater. The sheet piling begins at the elevation level of 614 and protects the land all the way to the bedrock elevation level of 588.”

The hotel was designed to withstand this type of flooding, but the pool was not. That would've added tremendous expense raising the pool and everything else that much higher. Sucks for them to have this happen so early on in its life, but they'll wipe their teary eyes away with the millions of gambled away dollars and somehow figure out how to move on. 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 03, 2019, 12:55:13 pm
People are confused I was talking about the pool?
Your total post "As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies?" 

 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: BKDotCom on June 03, 2019, 03:40:15 pm
Your total post "As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies?" 

 


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/river-spirit-resort-announces-it-will-remain-closed-through-june/article_37996e13-dfec-5193-9b24-c969c2842768.html

Quote
The resort’s hotel tower and expanded gaming and restaurants were built with “675 heavily reinforced concrete piers, eight feet in diameter that are 80 to 87 feet below the ground and socketed to the bedrock,” according to a news release from the resort. “Additionally, the resort complex is further protected from land erosion due to the one-inch thick, solid steel sheet piling surrounding the river side of the property from the hotel tower to the theater. The sheet piling begins at the elevation level of 614 and protects the land all the way to the bedrock elevation level of 588.”



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: patric on June 03, 2019, 04:12:11 pm
Your total post "As we speak, Riverspirit Casino is surrounded by water, and all the parking is submerged.  How many times can this happen before the foundation liquefies?" 

You pointed out that it was set on bedrock, and I followed with the handout verifying your statement.  Geek appeal, I guess.
THEN I commented on the pristine pool with the approaching muddy water.



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: In_Tulsa on June 04, 2019, 07:24:13 pm
https://simon-malls.cld.bz/Tulsa-Premium-Outlets


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on June 05, 2019, 11:11:50 am
https://simon-malls.cld.bz/Tulsa-Premium-Outlets

That document does not inspire confidence in Simon's ability to execute with precision. It references travel on I-75 (which runs from Michigan to Florida) and sort seems to imply an entrance on Riverside Dr. from which the site is currently separated by a raging river and always separated by some water and a bit of sand. There's a bunch of other little errors and weird things to call out (like the fact that QT is not on the Fortune 500 list because it is a private company and Williams was left off their list.) I guess it was probably written by someone whose closest familiarity with Tulsa was our Wikipedia page. Kind of irritating. As has been stated before the plan should include physical interaction with the river and west-side river trails any other design is a waste of the site.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: D-TownTulsan on June 06, 2019, 07:11:30 am
https://simon-malls.cld.bz/Tulsa-Premium-Outlets

This is most likely a personal thing, and I'm sure that it's in early enough to make design adjustments, but I'm not the biggest fan of the material pallet of the Norfolk VA's example taking precedent for something in Tulsa. I understand the "being next to a body of water" aspect, but it's a bit too "nautical". I also understand it's very difficult to make essentially a giant enclosed parking lot seem interesting. Hopefully they will be a little more thoughtful with design considerations relating to Tulsa / Green Country / Ozark vernacular. Perhaps more greens, and wood-ish elements (not dumb "picket fence siding") and corten steel details could ground it more in the area.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2019, 05:34:38 pm
I have had serious doubts about this taking place with the move to Jenks after they abandoned the Turkey Mountain site.  After the recent floods, I'm even less convinced this is going to eventually happen.  The biggest retail complex competition to this one is Woodland Hills Mall, another Simon property which, in the past, has been identified as one of their more successful still operating indoor mall concepts.  Why build something which competes with an existing, successful property.

They have come up with one stall after another on this.  They announced they were dropping plans over four years ago at Turkey Mountain.  When they announced they were building in Jenks, I believe the target opening was 2017.  I am aware there was an issue with a gas line R.O.W. that had to be addressed and I think that was eventually moved.  I'm curious if Simon is simply keeping this up to thwart competition to Woodland or if they can't get enough leases signed to move forward.  Very odd behavior from the largest retail REIT in the world.

I think they have kept up the charade to prevent another outlet from being built or planned.  They managed to run off Horizon with their development in east Tulsa but I've never heard an official termination of the Cherokee Outlets project out in Catoosa.

Anyone know if the Cherokee project has officially been sh!t canned or not?


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: In_Tulsa on June 06, 2019, 08:47:22 pm
I have had serious doubts about this taking place with the move to Jenks after they abandoned the Turkey Mountain site.  After the recent floods, I'm even less convinced this is going to eventually happen.  The biggest retail complex competition to this one is Woodland Hills Mall, another Simon property which, in the past, has been identified as one of their more successful still operating indoor mall concepts.  Why build something which competes with an existing, successful property.

They have come up with one stall after another on this.  They announced they were dropping plans over four years ago at Turkey Mountain.  When they announced they were building in Jenks, I believe the target opening was 2017.  I am aware there was an issue with a gas line R.O.W. that had to be addressed and I think that was eventually moved.  I'm curious if Simon is simply keeping this up to thwart competition to Woodland or if they can't get enough leases signed to move forward.  Very odd behavior from the largest retail REIT in the world.



I think they have kept up the charade to prevent another outlet from being built or planned.  They managed to run off Horizon with their development in east Tulsa but I've never heard an official termination of the Cherokee Outlets project out in Catoosa.

Anyone know if the Cherokee project has officially been sh!t canned or not?

Cherokee one is dead. They are all leased up and ready to go. Ground breaking will be announced soon. This will be an exciting development. This will be the only location in Oklahoma for a lot of the stores. It’s a whole different market then Woodland Hills.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on June 07, 2019, 10:26:22 am
This is most likely a personal thing, and I'm sure that it's in early enough to make design adjustments, but I'm not the biggest fan of the material pallet of the Norfolk VA's example taking precedent for something in Tulsa. I understand the "being next to a body of water" aspect, but it's a bit too "nautical". I also understand it's very difficult to make essentially a giant enclosed parking lot seem interesting. Hopefully they will be a little more thoughtful with design considerations relating to Tulsa / Green Country / Ozark vernacular. Perhaps more greens, and wood-ish elements (not dumb "picket fence siding") and corten steel details could ground it more in the area.

I don't like the design details either. Its another thing that's bizarre about that document. It keeps talking about Tulsa's Art Deco heritage and then in the last pages previews a design that is not at all in keeping with the existing built environment of Tulsa. At best the proposal matches the Jenks aquarium, which is super ugly and has that tacky faux-nautical theme.

1. Reorient the construction toward the river to enhance the site not diminish it.
2. Drop the tacky "could be anywhere waterfront" design
3. Actually deliver exciting retailers in a comfortable compelling setting.

Accomplish those three things and I'll be totally on board. Miss on them and I think this thing will fail long term or never get off the ground.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on June 07, 2019, 10:45:52 am
I don't like the design details either. Its another thing that's bizarre about that document. It keeps talking about Tulsa's Art Deco heritage and then in the last pages previews a design that is not at all in keeping with the existing built environment of Tulsa. At best the proposal matches the Jenks aquarium, which is super ugly and has that tacky faux-nautical theme.

1. Reorient the construction toward the river to enhance the site not diminish it.
2. Drop the tacky "could be anywhere waterfront" design
3. Actually deliver exciting retailers in a comfortable compelling setting.

Accomplish those three things and I'll be totally on board. Miss on them and I think this thing will fail long term or never get off the ground.

Those changes would be nice, but I assume it is a boilerplate design used before and it will simply be plopped down on the property in a way that fits and functions without thought to much else.  Simon knows that any unique Tulsa elements or extra touches will add to the cost but not attract any other retailers or additional customers.  It is an outlet mall and it will look and function like every other outlet mall Simon has built.  This site will succeed or fail based on the stores it has, not the architecture.  Sadly.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on June 07, 2019, 12:07:17 pm
Those changes would be nice, but I assume it is a boilerplate design used before and it will simply be plopped down on the property in a way that fits and functions without thought to much else.  Simon knows that any unique Tulsa elements or extra touches will add to the cost but not attract any other retailers or additional customers.  It is an outlet mall and it will look and function like every other outlet mall Simon has built.  This site will succeed or fail based on the stores it has, not the architecture.  Sadly.


You are 100% right. The fact that you're right also explains a significant part of why retail is struggling so much in the US right now. The built environment does matter economically.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: swake on June 07, 2019, 01:52:03 pm
I don't like the design details either. Its another thing that's bizarre about that document. It keeps talking about Tulsa's Art Deco heritage and then in the last pages previews a design that is not at all in keeping with the existing built environment of Tulsa. At best the proposal matches the Jenks aquarium, which is super ugly and has that tacky faux-nautical theme.

1. Reorient the construction toward the river to enhance the site not diminish it.
2. Drop the tacky "could be anywhere waterfront" design
3. Actually deliver exciting retailers in a comfortable compelling setting.

Accomplish those three things and I'll be totally on board. Miss on them and I think this thing will fail long term or never get off the ground.

The site isn't actually on the river. There is a good deal of developable land between the site for the mall and the river itself.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 07, 2019, 02:18:55 pm
You are 100% right. The fact that you're right also explains a significant part of why retail is struggling so much in the US right now. The built environment does matter economically.

It's sad, but this is a microcosm of development in the US (and large parts of the developing world also). I'm imagining anthropologists in the distant future, studying how we live now, seeing this example of how we have pages and pages of reasons this development is a bad idea and how retail will be failing and how we have countless vacant shopping centers and yet they'll still build in this flood-prone area just to appease the investors and get that ROI they need. And how our society did this sort of wasteful thing again and again until the earth finally gave way.

This kind of child-like laissez-faire developments worked while the earth had 4-6 billion inhabitants. Enough of the planet was still blind to modern necessities. As the earth approaches 8 billion inhabitants and billions more join the middle class, while virtually all countries emulate this type of consumeristic mindset they see on the American media we export, the earth is going to have a reckoning. Our society is actively engaging in wasteful short-sighted investments like this which will hurt the environment and yet some people are even celebrating this! It will be sad to look back and see how forums like this were right all along, but nothing can compete with the stock market's effect on the global economy. Money always wins. Until it can't anymore. I hope I'm wrong (but have to defer to the millions of scientists raising alarms) , but looks like long-term the planet as we knew it is doomed and this sort of thing will be Exhibit A for those digging through the remains.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on June 07, 2019, 02:32:38 pm
It's sad, but this is a microcosm of development in the US (and large parts of the developing world also). I'm imagining anthropologists in the distant future, studying how we live now, seeing this example of how we have pages and pages of reasons this development is a bad idea and how retail will be failing and how we have countless vacant shopping centers and yet they'll still build in this flood-prone area just to appease the investors and get that ROI they need. And how our society did this sort of wasteful thing again and again until the earth finally gave way.

This kind of child-like laissez-faire developments worked while the earth had 4-6 billion inhabitants. Enough of the planet was still blind to modern necessities. As the earth approaches 8 billion inhabitants and billions more join the middle class, while virtually all countries emulate this type of consumeristic mindset they see on the American media we export, the earth is going to have a reckoning. Our society is actively engaging in wasteful short-sighted investments like this which will hurt the environment and yet some people are even celebrating this! It will be sad to look back and see how forums like this were right all along, but nothing can compete with the stock market's effect on the global economy. Money always wins. Until it can't anymore. I hope I'm wrong (but have to defer to the millions of scientists raising alarms) , but looks like long-term the planet as we knew it is doomed and this sort of thing will be Exhibit A for those digging through the remains.

That seems like a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 07, 2019, 02:42:11 pm
They are all leased up and ready to go. Ground breaking will be announced soon. This will be an exciting development. This will be the only location in Oklahoma for a lot of the stores. It’s a whole different market then Woodland Hills.

No it won't. Let's celebrate all the additional garbage this will send to landfills and rivers with the "fast-fashion" sub-par clothing this will distribute to all the poor mothers who shouldn't be buying this garbage "name brand" clothing for their kids who will either not like it or wear it for maybe a few months before it tears (I remember hating almost all outlet clothes I got as a kid because they were such terrible quality and often looked like cheesy knock-offs).

Lets celebrate the hundreds of thousands of square feet of existing retail that will have to close to make room in the market place for this additional retail that will be added in. Lets celebrate pushing tax dollars further and further out to enhance the urban sprawl which is destroying our farmlands, our wildlife and ensuring that our civilization is chained to the highest-polluting means of conveyance available! What a win! Nature can rot in hell! I'll be Rolling Coal to my microplastic-tainted grave! and fast!  

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/05/climate-change-apocalypse-could-start-2050-if-we-do-noting/1356865001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/05/climate-change-apocalypse-could-start-2050-if-we-do-noting/1356865001/)

https://www.ecowatch.com/fast-fashion-is-the-second-dirtiest-industry-in-the-world-next-to-big--1882083445.html (https://www.ecowatch.com/fast-fashion-is-the-second-dirtiest-industry-in-the-world-next-to-big--1882083445.html)

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3062698/fashion-industry-accounts-for-more-than-a-third-of-ocean-microplastics-report-warns (https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3062698/fashion-industry-accounts-for-more-than-a-third-of-ocean-microplastics-report-warns)


Scientists are just now wrapping their heads around what a globalized economy means for monumentous all the waste and pollution is and how ingrained it is into our society. Global Warming and CO2 are just the mainstream tip of the iceberg (Or the 18 billion pounds of plastic going into the oceans every year). Celebrating this outlet mall opening would be akin to cracking open a flask and celebrating sharing another drink with your alcoholic father at his bedside in the hospital. It's not over yet, but boy every single one of those organs look pretty damn awful.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 07, 2019, 02:51:48 pm
That seems like a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.

That's why I said it's a "microcosm" of our society. Our whole society is built on ROI's that cannot (and shouldn't) happen forever. We throw away old and build new. Eventually it'll come back to hurt us, but then it'll be too late. I can see that despite the promise of a "Retail-ocalypse", and a thousand retail vacancies across the city, progress will march on and they'll build yet another redundant shopping center. This is proof that corporations are not driven by reason, more by just a bit more potential future profit, and they really can't be trusted to fix the issues we're seeing. It's going to get far far worse before anything changes, but that'll be too late.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on June 10, 2019, 03:34:08 pm
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN I genuinely love your rant here. My one critique is that corporations' decisions are not driven by actual future profits they are driven by "profit models." Profit models require that a project be a slight modification of something done previously. Despite every corporate stock fund noting that "past results are no guarantee of future performance" nearly every corporation pretends like they're last project is exactly replicable. ROI calculations drive decision making and ROI calculations are easiest if the project is a repackaging of the last project. Therefore adaptive reuse like the Ross Group's Tulsa Club Hotel can be difficult to accurately calculate an ROI, so the numbers are often conservative. Thus, many unique projects exceed their ROI pitch. An example of that would be the BOK Center (if memory serves.) Meanwhile, cheap replicable and ultimately disposable suburban projects like these outlets are easy to calculate a ROI on for the first 5-10 years. Thus, the numbers tend to be much less conservative and more attractive on the surface.

I say all this because a 5-10 year period should be considered inadequate for making major development decisions and not just for environmental reasons. For business reasons too. We should be building for a century not a decade. Does anyone believe Simon Outlets Jenks will exist in 2119? What about the Philtower? I know where I'd rather have my money. Capitalists are only going to be convinced by a capitalist argument. They won't listen when we say don't build like this because it's: ugly, environmentally damaging, and fails to build a lasting and sustainable community. They will list when we convince them: THIS WILL LOSE YOU MONEY.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 11, 2019, 11:26:50 am
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN I genuinely love your rant here. My one critique is that corporations' decisions are not driven by actual future profits they are driven by "profit models." Profit models require that a project be a slight modification of something done previously. Despite every corporate stock fund noting that "past results are no guarantee of future performance" nearly every corporation pretends like they're last project is exactly replicable. ROI calculations drive decision making and ROI calculations are easiest if the project is a repackaging of the last project. Therefore adaptive reuse like the Ross Group's Tulsa Club Hotel can be difficult to accurately calculate an ROI, so the numbers are often conservative. Thus, many unique projects exceed their ROI pitch. An example of that would be the BOK Center (if memory serves.) Meanwhile, cheap replicable and ultimately disposable suburban projects like these outlets are easy to calculate a ROI on for the first 5-10 years. Thus, the numbers tend to be much less conservative and more attractive on the surface.

I say all this because a 5-10 year period should be considered inadequate for making major development decisions and not just for environmental reasons. For business reasons too. We should be building for a century not a decade. Does anyone believe Simon Outlets Jenks will exist in 2119? What about the Philtower? I know where I'd rather have my money. Capitalists are only going to be convinced by a capitalist argument. They won't listen when we say don't build like this because it's: ugly, environmentally damaging, and fails to build a lasting and sustainable community. They will list when we convince them: THIS WILL LOSE YOU MONEY.

Good points. I'm frustrated by the massive number of suburban sprawl developments going on in comparison to the very limited (and often very pricey) midtown developments. Downtown is moving, but it's still a far from an ideal walkable livable place. Tulsa is far too reliant on cars and with new reports coming out all the time with more difficult findings of environmental damage (One scientific study even claiming the earth will be largely uninhabitable by 2050 due to runaway climate change; it takes many years for the previous CO2 emissions to really hit), the future of suburbia is looking extremely dire. And at present, it is incredibly harmful. Yet people are not adjusting. It's all over the US and we can either learn to live together in an urban framework with close neighbors, or we can suffer. At some point we will have to face the consequences. We need to at least confine our destruction to previously developed places.

Looks like the only option will be having the government place large taxes on brand new further out developments and incentivize revitalization and building up in the urban cores (and apply that to everything: cars, consumer goods, etc). I don't like new taxes, but I'd prefer we do what it takes to remain alive.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on June 11, 2019, 12:27:39 pm
Good points. I'm frustrated by the massive number of suburban sprawl developments going on in comparison to the very limited (and often very pricey) midtown developments. Downtown is moving, but it's still a far from an ideal walkable livable place. Tulsa is far too reliant on cars and with new reports coming out all the time with more difficult findings of environmental damage (One scientific study even claiming the earth will be largely uninhabitable by 2050 due to runaway climate change; it takes many years for the previous CO2 emissions to really hit), the future of suburbia is looking extremely dire. And at present, it is incredibly harmful. Yet people are not adjusting. It's all over the US and we can either learn to live together in an urban framework with close neighbors, or we can suffer. At some point we will have to face the consequences. We need to at least confine our destruction to previously developed places.

Looks like the only option will be having the government place large taxes on brand new further out developments and incentivize revitalization and building up in the urban cores (and apply that to everything: cars, consumer goods, etc). I don't like new taxes, but I'd prefer we do what it takes to remain alive.

Earth uninhabitable by 2050?  That is a really heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 12, 2019, 08:30:50 am
Earth uninhabitable by 2050?  That is a really heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.


I said "Largely uninhabitable"... currently the world is already largely uninhabitable (the entire Ocean, arctics and most of the desert regions). The studies predict what the additional warming and sea level rises will do to populations around the world. It will push enough people to and fro and wreak enough havoc on ecosystems to have a massive end effect, far more than just higher water levels. No prediction is completely accurate and that one is extreme. It sound more like the 2100 predictions. Regardless, eventually we will need to adapt fast or die out. There's already a number of places in the world which used to be inhabitable but are not any longer due to near permanent drought and high temps.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/597kpd/new-report-suggests-high-likelihood-of-human-civilization-coming-to-an-end-in-2050 (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/597kpd/new-report-suggests-high-likelihood-of-human-civilization-coming-to-an-end-in-2050)


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on June 12, 2019, 10:57:27 am

I said "Largely uninhabitable"... currently the world is already largely uninhabitable (the entire Ocean, arctics and most of the desert regions). The studies predict what the additional warming and sea level rises will do to populations around the world. It will push enough people to and fro and wreak enough havoc on ecosystems to have a massive end effect, far more than just higher water levels. No prediction is completely accurate and that one is extreme. It sound more like the 2100 predictions. Regardless, eventually we will need to adapt fast or die out. There's already a number of places in the world which used to be inhabitable but are not any longer due to near permanent drought and high temps.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/597kpd/new-report-suggests-high-likelihood-of-human-civilization-coming-to-an-end-in-2050 (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/597kpd/new-report-suggests-high-likelihood-of-human-civilization-coming-to-an-end-in-2050)

Fair enough, but a largely uninhabitable earth still seems like a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.  As for me, in grade school I was watching Leonard Nimoy tell me the coming new ice age was going to wipe out most of us right about the time I was supposed to graduate from college.  So I’ve pretty much always figured I’m living on borrowed time.  Besides, AOC told us the planet was doomed in 12 years, so this 2050 near extinction thing seems like a reprieve that should get me to my top end life expectancy.  In that sense, whether or not a kitschy and wasteful outlet mall is built in Jenks does not seem all that important.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 12, 2019, 02:47:10 pm
Fair enough, but a largely uninhabitable earth still seems like a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.  As for me, in grade school I was watching Leonard Nimoy tell me the coming new ice age was going to wipe out most of us right about the time I was supposed to graduate from college.  So I’ve pretty much always figured I’m living on borrowed time.  Besides, AOC told us the planet was doomed in 12 years, so this 2050 near extinction thing seems like a reprieve that should get me to my top end life expectancy.  In that sense, whether or not a kitschy and wasteful outlet mall is built in Jenks does not seem all that important.


You're probably right that one actor's inaccurate claim from decades ago likely invalidates all modern science. Pack it up boys, climate change is a "Chinese hoax"! We're going to be fine after all. No need to fight against wasteful proposals for one of the most wasteful industries like this one... Besides, everyone who matters will be dead by then anyways! The real token Baby Boomer attitude: F#$K YOU I got mine! College costed 440 minimum wage hours for us so screw millenials who complain about having to work 4,400 minimum wage hours to pay for their college! Someone once said something about global cooling so F#$K them, climate change can't possibly be real!

You must not have any kids or grand kids, or anyone young you care about. If everyone thinks like you do, we really are doomed and deserve exactly what's coming. Please hurry up and die off so the rest of us can try to do something about it.



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: DTowner on June 12, 2019, 03:36:28 pm
You're probably right that one actor's inaccurate claim from decades ago likely invalidates all modern science. Pack it up boys, climate change is a "Chinese hoax"! We're going to be fine after all. No need to fight against wasteful proposals for one of the most wasteful industries like this one... Besides, everyone who matters will be dead by then anyways! The real token Baby Boomer attitude: F#$K YOU I got mine! College costed 440 minimum wage hours for us so screw millenials who complain about having to work 4,400 minimum wage hours to pay for their college! Someone once said something about global cooling so F#$K them, climate change can't possibly be real!

You must not have any kids or grand kids, or anyone young you care about. If everyone thinks like you do, we really are doomed and deserve exactly what's coming. Please hurry up and die off so the rest of us can try to do something about it.

It wasn’t just some actor, it was Mr. Spock!  

Perhaps your study is right, but a largely uninhabitable earth and your college debt is a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 13, 2019, 09:06:11 am
It wasn’t just some actor, it was Mr. Spock!  

Perhaps your study is right, but a largely uninhabitable earth and your college debt is a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.



I don't have any college debt and never did, but somehow I still care about the large scale inflation of education prices by guaranteed student loans and the long term effects that have wreaked havoc on young people's financial lives and on higher education. There's a lot of problems being almost completely ignored by the Baby Boomer generation and those things are eventually going to reach a critical point (Like underfunded Social Security that's going to dry up after they're dead).

Honestly Oklahoma and most of the central parts of the US will be seemingly unaffected by climate change for a long time. It's those places on the coasts and on the cusps with little water and regular high temps and ecosystems in the balance, like desert climates, rainforests and reefs (half the Great Barrier Reef has died since 2015). It'll take a long time for it to really show up in our daily lives. Meanwhile corporations keep building new massive shopping centers like Tulsa Hills and this unnecessary behemoth. And we keep supporting them, completely oblivious to what the long term effects are. Those old shopping centers don't go away, last year's "out of style" clothes or the trash we leave in landfills doesn't magically go away:

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/oxley-nature-center-covered-in-trash-after-old-city-dump/article_78a1e00a-a4ac-5c99-ab82-74a01d3a5b23.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/oxley-nature-center-covered-in-trash-after-old-city-dump/article_78a1e00a-a4ac-5c99-ab82-74a01d3a5b23.html)

Also, the effects of oil and gas on our state are significant and a lot of those poisoned superfund sites are too expensive to clean up and are here to stay. Who knows what injecting all the disposal fluids will do long term to underground water supplies.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TheArtist on June 14, 2019, 12:07:13 pm
I don't have any college debt and never did, but somehow I still care about the large scale inflation of education prices by guaranteed student loans and the long term effects that have wreaked havoc on young people's financial lives and on higher education. There's a lot of problems being almost completely ignored by the Baby Boomer generation and those things are eventually going to reach a critical point (Like underfunded Social Security that's going to dry up after they're dead).

Honestly Oklahoma and most of the central parts of the US will be seemingly unaffected by climate change for a long time. It's those places on the coasts and on the cusps with little water and regular high temps and ecosystems in the balance, like desert climates, rainforests and reefs (half the Great Barrier Reef has died since 2015). It'll take a long time for it to really show up in our daily lives. Meanwhile corporations keep building new massive shopping centers like Tulsa Hills and this unnecessary behemoth. And we keep supporting them, completely oblivious to what the long term effects are. Those old shopping centers don't go away, last year's "out of style" clothes or the trash we leave in landfills doesn't magically go away:

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/oxley-nature-center-covered-in-trash-after-old-city-dump/article_78a1e00a-a4ac-5c99-ab82-74a01d3a5b23.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/oxley-nature-center-covered-in-trash-after-old-city-dump/article_78a1e00a-a4ac-5c99-ab82-74a01d3a5b23.html)

Also, the effects of oil and gas on our state are significant and a lot of those poisoned superfund sites are too expensive to clean up and are here to stay. Who knows what injecting all the disposal fluids will do long term to underground water supplies.

"Seemingly unaffected"?  The usual weather patterns we are having now are not what they were when I was a kid.  Even the official planting zones have changed. We were I believe a 6, but are now in zone 7, and I will likely see in my lifetime us be in zone 8.  Which is fine with me for it is a bother bringing in my tropical plants each year (though interestingly enough I got lazy and dug up only about half my elephant ears last year and surprise surprise all the ones I left in the ground are going gangbusters this year).  Whether we end up being in a more tropical environment or desert is yet to be seen but some of the old climate projections I saw favored the tropical version.

The nasty trick on us being in Oklahoma is that with the weakening jet streams that blob of super cold air over the north pole may on occasion "escape" and drift our way. So until a "new normal" settles in (who knows when or what that will be) we will be in for some occasional extreme events.

To shift the conversation back to the Outlet Mall, I think it would be lovely with some palm trees  8) 


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: ELG4America on June 14, 2019, 12:14:40 pm
That seems like a heavy burden for an outlet mall to bear.

Respectfully, this outlet mall is emblematic of the industry. While it is true that this outlet mall is not to blame for all the issues raised in this thread, this one is in our community. We had no voice in the conversation about building the last ugly, environmentally unsound, wasteful and short-sighted mall project because that one was on the other side of the country. Moreover, ignoring the global context because this project or that is so small in the grand scheme is exactly how we will fail to "turn the ship." As a global society we have to recognize and commit ourselves to individual actions that contribute to the solution. These will all be small steps but it is only collective action that will put us on a sustainable course.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: In_Tulsa on June 14, 2019, 02:04:41 pm
 I think it’s a great development with a great design and a great location. So I guess not everybody is upset about this!


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 14, 2019, 02:18:00 pm
"Seemingly unaffected"?  The usual weather patterns we are having now are not what they were when I was a kid.  Even the official planting zones have changed. We were I believe a 6, but are now in zone 7, and I will likely see in my lifetime us be in zone 8.  Which is fine with me for it is a bother bringing in my tropical plants each year (though interestingly enough I got lazy and dug up only about half my elephant ears last year and surprise surprise all the ones I left in the ground are going gangbusters this year).  Whether we end up being in a more tropical environment or desert is yet to be seen but some of the old climate projections I saw favored the tropical version.

The nasty trick on us being in Oklahoma is that with the weakening jet streams that blob of super cold air over the north pole may on occasion "escape" and drift our way. So until a "new normal" settles in (who knows when or what that will be) we will be in for some occasional extreme events.

To shift the conversation back to the Outlet Mall, I think it would be lovely with some palm trees  8) 

I completely agree that climate has and will continue to change here, just that we aren't in the areas under extreme threat that are projected to create "climate refugees" (such as large parts of the middle east and Africa; and currently, India which is largely under extreme drought since 2015). And most people here will probably just say it's all cyclic and just accept the variations as Oklahoma weather. It does "seem" like weather has changed here a lot, and we have seen record extremes over and over various times, but older folks will claim nothing is like the Great Depression (even though the last big drought we had was actually worse) and recurrent flooding that used to be common (even though we've added tons of new retention ponds).

Maybe the roughest impact of climate change will be the areas that won't get enough water. Oklahoma doesn't appear to be in those high-risk zones, although the drought earlier this decade was pretty bad, we were still head and shoulders better than most of the Southwest and far better than large parts of India/Middle-East/Africa when it comes to water scarcity. Not only is drought a normal part of the natural cycles there, it is now even further exacerbated by high population, over-farming and climate change.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 14, 2019, 02:21:50 pm
Respectfully, this outlet mall is emblematic of the industry. While it is true that this outlet mall is not to blame for all the issues raised in this thread, this one is in our community. We had no voice in the conversation about building the last ugly, environmentally unsound, wasteful and short-sighted mall project because that one was on the other side of the country. Moreover, ignoring the global context because this project or that is so small in the grand scheme is exactly how we will fail to "turn the ship." As a global society we have to recognize and commit ourselves to individual actions that contribute to the solution. These will all be small steps but it is only collective action that will put us on a sustainable course.

Well said. I am willing to "die on this hill" when it comes to at least opposing things like 71st and Riverside shopping center and this one. Tulsa may be so far gone in walkability, but there's a few areas with reason to have hope. The river is something we should all fight for. I hope the environment becomes something we are all mindful of and consider day-to-day, especially when supporting companies and development. This is late-stage globalization. The data is out there an it's bad. Time for changing how we build and live.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Red Arrow on June 14, 2019, 05:20:11 pm
To shift the conversation back to the Outlet Mall, I think it would be lovely with some palm trees  8) 

I like palm trees, preferably with coconuts.
:)



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Red Arrow on June 14, 2019, 05:23:08 pm
Respectfully, this outlet mall is emblematic of the industry. While it is true that this outlet mall is not to blame for all the issues raised in this thread, this one is in our community. We had no voice in the conversation about building the last ugly, environmentally unsound, wasteful and short-sighted mall project because that one was on the other side of the country. Moreover, ignoring the global context because this project or that is so small in the grand scheme is exactly how we will fail to "turn the ship." As a global society we have to recognize and commit ourselves to individual actions that contribute to the solution. These will all be small steps but it is only collective action that will put us on a sustainable course.

Unfortunately, everything we can possibly do will not overcome the damage by places like China.



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: SXSW on June 16, 2019, 02:22:56 pm
Well said. I am willing to "die on this hill" when it comes to at least opposing things like 71st and Riverside shopping center and this one. Tulsa may be so far gone in walkability, but there's a few areas with reason to have hope. The river is something we should all fight for. I hope the environment becomes something we are all mindful of and consider day-to-day, especially when supporting companies and development. This is late-stage globalization. The data is out there an it's bad. Time for changing how we build and live.

I agree on the river, though some damage has already been done around 96th & Riverside.  Jenks has done the best job of fronting developments along the river but the area lacks cohesion.  I don't know how many people actually walk from the aquarium to Riverwalk Crossing even though it's not far.  The river trail doesn't connect these two areas. 



Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: rebound on June 17, 2019, 02:01:17 pm
I don't know how many people actually walk from the aquarium to Riverwalk Crossing even though it's not far.  The river trail doesn't connect these two areas. 

The walk is easy.  Maybe 15 minutes, tops.  And the trail does basically run all the way between the two.  (Not the riverside trail, but the "aquarium trail" that runs along the drive.)  It would be nice if/when they extend the riverside trail all the way down behind the holiday Inn, but even then I think that a lot of people would drive it rather than walk, but that's because of the people, not ease of access.


Title: Re: Jenks Outlet Mall starting?
Post by: Conan71 on June 19, 2019, 01:44:53 pm
The topic seems to be straying a bit but I will leave this here:

I will always be proud that we got Simon to take this lump of crap somewhere other than the western flank of Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness area and I'm proud of my role in ensuring this happened.  As a result of this near-miss Tulsa got approximately another 140 acres of urban wilderness (oxymoron much?) between this 60 acre parcel and more land south of 61st Street which was quietly acquired with far less fanfare than the Vision 2025 extension purchase of the land Simon was trying to develop.  This whole episode woke up some of the most influential people in the Tulsa community as to how important urban green space is over planting new commerce sites every square mile.

I hope it is a good revenue generator for Jenks and they don't get fleeced on tax abatements later in the lifespan of this property.  I did much research on Simon's business practices and while not unsavory per se, they are less than ideal for municipal government and don't seem to really provide the net tax revenue lift everyone wants to believe they will bring.  

This location is more intuitive to get to than the previously intended one and may well prove to be a travel destination which does add to the tax base when people shop there from Okmulgee, Bartlesville, etc.  I have no feel though for how many people really travel to an outlet mall from 1-2 hours away rather than just buying online these days.  That would be akin to me driving two hours to Santa Fe or Pueblo, Co. to buy a pair of jeans, shoes, or package of underwear- just not worth my time.  I now live in a very rural area and my first impulse is to always go online for something we cannot find in the village or the next largest town 40 miles away.