The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Even some ICE officials see that as a good idea to stem the abuse from above.

The child of a forced marriage between two defunct federal agencies — The United States Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service — ICE has long struggled to balance its dual roles of transnational criminal investigations and deportations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/ice-immigration-eliminate-agency.html


...and there is a fair amount of momentum:

From L.A. to N.Y., hundreds of thousands join nationwide rallies to protest Trump's immigration policies
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-rally-family-separation-20180629-story.html


As thousands of protesters gathered across the country to protest President Donald Trump’s immigration policies and the chorus of voices calling to abolish ICE grows, the president is going on the offensive. He’s warning of an America overrun by MS-13 — an America that doesn’t exist.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/30/17521298/trump-abolish-ice-ms-13




We already have a chaw-spittle poster boy for the cause:

(https://lawandcrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/unidentified-border-patrol-agent-via-No-More-Deaths.jpg)

Poster boy for dbaggery...

(http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1721;type=avatar)

Joining BB for late night methane/nitrous sleepovers...??

Late night? You have problems telling time? I responded to your stupid thread and even stupider post about 3 hours ago. That's when daylight happens.

(https://i.imgur.com/zC0k1Qp.gif?1)

No...I wasn't referring to the time of your post.   Just going by the symptoms you are exhibiting that so closely resemble the other.

I totally think the Democrats should latch on to this position. Let's abolish ICE so it can be replaced with a new acronym-ed department that essentially has the same failings as the one we already have. Vision.

As the ICE investigators themselves noted when recommending it be abolished, we would not be abandoning legal immigration but rather divesting the country of  out-of-control private (Trump) storm troopers.
What if we recycled The United States Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service?  There might even be some old stationary around.


WASHINGTON — At least 19 Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigators are seeking to dissolve the agency, concerned that the Trump administration’s crackdown on illegal migrants has limited their ability to pursue national security threats, child pornography and transnational crime.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/ice-immigration-eliminate-agency.html

I'm largely agreeing with Erfalf on this one. 

ICE wasn't a thing before 2003.  I don't think anyone would argue that immigration and customs enforcement has been markedly improved since then, but neither has it markedly gone downhill. Yes, I get that most people do not like the Trump administration's recent policy changes, but that wasn't ICE taking a stand.  It was a policy directive and they should follow it unless and until Ordered not to by a Court (unless it given an obviously and shockingly illegal directive). Changing the name of the agency or putting it in a different box isn't a solution to any problems that people are pointing out. It's basically just a slogan.

But it is also strange to me that some on the right are so offended by the idea, like criticizing the government is un-American.  The next thing you know those crazy leftists are going to be appropriating Native American cultural garb and polluting Boston Harbor by tossing in the product of free enterprise.  Crazy hippies have no idea what it means to be a patriot.  :)



Also probably a good place to discuss the disparity between the American public's opinions and our government action on these issues:

67% oppose the policy of family separation.

79% think the Dreamers should remain and be able to apply for citizenship.

58% oppose building a border wall.

67% think illegal immigrants current in the country should be allowed to stay and eventually apply for citizenship (Republicans 48%, with another 9% saying they should stay but not be able to apply, and only 36% wanting to deport them all).

17% want legal immigration to the US to be cut back.

Quinnipiac University Poll, June 18, 2018. 
https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us06182018_uwsf18.pdf/

But in the meantime:   https://youtu.be/dNF6sVurAuI

Different aspects were handled by different departments... ICE hasn't helped anything at all - that in itself is good reason to change it.  You are absolutely right - we are spending a boat load of new money on a new department that has made no detectable improvement to the situation.  Go back to the old way and save some bucks.



This is something that is astounding - 33% of the people here are in favor of family separation!  Even though, as practiced in this case, it is being used to break Federal law against detaining children for more than 20 days!   But most disturbing is these "supporters" are mostly the extremist right wing who give voice to all manner of lip-service about;  'law and order'.  "Family Values".  Their "christian values" - not to be confused with Christian Values...  "Compassionate Conservatism" - although they have given up on that lie in recent years.  

Welcome to the for-profit prison industry.

Lawmakers have called out Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) for a policy that allegedly forces parents to pay "exorbitant" fees to speak to their separated children over the phone, according to BuzzFeed News.

The group of Democrats argue that ICE policy allows the imposition of steep prices to place phone calls in immigration detention facilities.

http://thehill.com/latino/398353-dem-lawmakers-slam-ice-policy-that-charges-exorbitant-prices-for-parents-to-call

Trump keeps talking about what a great businessman he is - gotta make up for all those losses/bankruptcies he has had in the past....

ICE plays the victim card:

Portland mayor’s office violated the US Constitution by telling police not to interfere with a protest against federal
immigration policies, a letter sent by their union said.

For over five weeks since mid-June people in Portland have been protesting against the US Immigration and Customs
Enforcement (ICE). City authorities refused to get involved, with Mayor Ted Wheeler, who also serves as police
commissioner, saying his officers will not be “sucked into a conflict" and "bailout" ICE, an agency that he believed was
"on the wrong track". At the peak of the protest the immigration agency’s local office was shut down. The protest finally
ended on July 25, with the police later clearing the protesters’ camp.
https://www.rt.com/usa/434715-ice-portland-police-constitution/

Rephrase the question;

Why should we keep ICE??

Ted Wheeler is an idiot. He's turned Portland into a homeless camp, want to build housing for the homeless that costs more than the average apartment, wants to ban plastic straws. Here is a podcast and an article about the village idiot.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/opb-politics-now-ted-wheelers-big-problem/ (https://www.opb.org/news/article/opb-politics-now-ted-wheelers-big-problem/)

https://www.oregonlive.com/expo/news/erry-2018/07/63527cd9c76678/excerpts-of-portland-mayor-ted.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/expo/news/erry-2018/07/63527cd9c76678/excerpts-of-portland-mayor-ted.html)

http://www.wweek.com/news/city/2018/05/16/affordable-housing-developers-face-rising-costs-mayor-ted-wheeler-isnt-plugging-the-hole/ (http://www.wweek.com/news/city/2018/05/16/affordable-housing-developers-face-rising-costs-mayor-ted-wheeler-isnt-plugging-the-hole/)

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/wheeler/article/682231 (https://www.portlandoregon.gov/wheeler/article/682231)

http://www.wweek.com/news/city/2017/09/27/mayor-ted-wheeler-doubles-down-on-his-promise-to-create-shelter-beds/ (http://www.wweek.com/news/city/2017/09/27/mayor-ted-wheeler-doubles-down-on-his-promise-to-create-shelter-beds/)

I dont doubt he's motivated by some idealistic (and sometimes unrealistic) visions, but ICE was expecting the local police to be the muscle for fights they pick.  As a mayor, his responsibility is to his city.

That's what Portland wants.  Still doesn't address the topic of ICE and their unreasonable expectations that local governments should take up the burden and do the work of what is clearly, by definition, a Federal job.


Also doesn't answer the question of 'Why should we keep ICE??'

No ICE shouldn't be abolished. In a larger way it's still doing the job it's supposed to in dealing with gangs a drugs illegally entering the country. What I think should happen is all the panty waisted idiots in DC that keep getting elected based on lies, like immigration reform that's been kicked down the road since Bush Sr. was VP, get off their a$$3$ and quit complaining and bellyaching and forming committees to do investigations that are nothing more than busy work to keep them in office.

So now, go ahead and insert your usual liberal Juan Williams contrarian drivel that you repeat. You sound like the instructions on a bottle of shampoo, "Wash, rinse, repeat".

By any measure, it has NOT done the job that it was "created" for...and even more so when you consider the extra money spent over the way it was done before.  No drugs are being kept out of the country in any way more than previously done.

"What I think should happen is all the panty waisted idiots in DC..."     Notice how it has been mostly Republicans since the 90's.  

And it has ALWAYS been Republicans resisting any kind of 'fix' to the so-called immigration problem.    As mentioned before, a solution has been available since the 1950's in the form of H visas.  H2 in particular addresses temporary visiting workers very well.   So why is it there is no enforcement action against companies who use the "wink and a nod" approach with the Federal govt to NOT use that program?   Because they would have to pay the minimum wage.  They would be required to provide sanitary facilities, like porta-johns and a hand wash station for workers to use, and a 5 minute break from time to time to let them take a leak.  And that would raise the cost of your avocado's a fraction of a penny.

In other words, they would have to obey the law, like so many are demanding of poor people who come here at the direct invitation of the "wink and nod" guys.  But it is always easier to be cruel to poor people who can't afford lawyers to fight back...


And ICE, under Trump and Sessions direct control, are still breaking Federal law, like they have for months now.   There are still hundreds of kids being detained WAY beyond the 20 day law requirement, and not being reunited with their parents in direct contradiction to a court order.  

But that's ok with the Minions...it's just the kind of immoral, illegal, action that they condone, excuse, and expect from Trump.

So, yeah, if you believe in not having rule of law, are willing to excuse any kind of aberrant behavior, and just revel in the swamp that is the Trump regime, you are right - we should keep ICE.  Otherwise, it should be abolished and functions returned where they came from.



"So now, go ahead and insert your usual liberal Juan Williams contrarian drivel that you repeat. You sound like the instructions on a bottle of shampoo, "Wash, rinse, repeat".


Aww..."plaintive-bleat-of-the-tragically-hip" time once again...

Oh, almost forgot... did you remember to take your photo ID to buy groceries last time...??   Would be a shame if you were turned away for that one tiny misstep....

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38122108_10212321102845612_5118601114085752832_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=efd48cb1cdbf0b2ab5991bb45b43dda7&oe=5BCD1267)

Awww, bless your little Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez socialist loving heart. How's Venezuela treating you?

In effect, ICE expects local law enforcement and local tax payers to pick up the tab for federal law enforcement. That alone should be sufficient reason to prevent city LEOs from doing a federal job.

Awww...how cute...!!   More plaintive bleat rather than substantive comment...  How's Fake Fox News treating you??   Like they do the rest of the country - like a baby treats a diaper...!


So, in reply to my post, you give your implicit approval to ongoing lack of enforcement of visa law.  As well as several other Federal laws regarding treatment of minors.   Really am curious how the extremist right balances all the noise of wrapping themselves in morality and the Shroud while their conscience somehow rationalizes all these immoral, illegal actions.  Actually, I probably don't wanna see that process - it would probably be too much like a "Doors" song...

The combative White House chief of staff erupted in an expletive-ridden rant and nearly got into a “fistfight” after President Trump invited an immigration hawk to the Oval Office whom Kelly had butted heads with while at the Department of Homeland Security, according to Bob Woodward’s new book.

“I can’t believe you’d let some f--king guy like this into the Oval Office,” Kelly shouted at Trump after strolling into the historic room in November 2017 to find Chris Crane, the head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement union.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-news-kelly-fistfight-oval-ice-trump-20180906-story.html

I've said the same thing about the electoral college

We have a winner!

Washington (CNN) Federal officers have arrested dozens of undocumented immigrants who came forward to take care of undocumented immigrant children in government custody, and the Trump administration is pledging to go after more.
The news will serve as confirmation of the worst fears of immigrants and their advocates: that a recent move by President Donald Trump's administration to more fully vet people who come forward to care for undocumented immigrant children who are alone in the US has been a way for the administration to track down and arrest more undocumented immigrants.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/20/politics/ice-arrested-immigrants-sponsor-children/index.html


Border Patrol Agent Who Admitted To Killing 4 Women And Kidnapping Another May Have Had More Victims
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/border-patrol-agent-killings-kidnapping_us_5ba0e0d1e4b013b0977f1bd1

And yet, the Minions are still just fine with the ongoing breaking of Federal law.  And since they make no noise of protest, they are condoning the beating, molestation, and deaths of these kids.  But that is only what one would expect....

Peter Sean Brown was born in Philadelphia.
But when he showed up at a Florida sheriff’s office for violating probation after testing positive for marijuana, he was told he would be detained and flagged for deportation — to the island of Jamaica — based on a request from Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/american-born-citizen-sues-sheriff-after-he-was-nearly-deported-n943486

Sounds about right...Trump's ICE - gotta make every effort to rid the country of people who have too dark a complexion.  And send them back to their "s***hole' countries...Trump's words, not mine!

Federal authorities have arrested 170 immigrants who came forward seeking to sponsor migrant children in government custody, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials said.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/ice-arrested-170-immigrants-seeking-sponsor-migrant-children-n946621

"Just under 80 percent of people screened by ICE during the sponsorship process showed results that they were not in the country legally"

I am very sympathetic to immigrants wanting to come into the US.  But we cannot ignore being in this country illegally, either.  What is an agency (any agency) supposed to do when they find that person is not legal in the US?  We have to detain them.   I realize this is a tough issue, particularly with children involved, but that does not discount the need for order and process.

Maybe its the absence of professionalism, or the disregard for human dignity in the execution of the process.
Or maybe just the “lack of accountability, and a culture of cruelty within CBP”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/7-year-old-migrant-girl-taken-into-border-patrol-custody-dies-of-dehydration-exhaustion/2018/12/13/8909e356-ff03-11e8-862a-b6a6f3ce8199_story.html



We used bear repellent on children.  
Surely the nation with the most resources on the planet can do better than this.
(https://img3.daumcdn.net/thumb/R658x0.q70/?fname=https://t1.daumcdn.net/news/201811/30/hani21/20181130160802618blqq.jpg)

Big part is the total lack of consequences for the people doing this sh$t.  Much like mid-30's Nazi Germany, why not?  Nothing gonna happen anyway.  And if for some reason it did, Trump is there to pardon them...make them "great American heroes", like they did for Oliver North for causing pretty much the same thing - death of priests, nuns, women and children...but on a much larger scale.

Better than this?   No.  We can't.  Or at least choose not to.

Making Christmas Great Again

(CNN)  Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers dropped off more than 200 undocumented immigrants outside a Greyhound bus terminal in El Paso, Texas, on Sunday night without an apparent plan for housing them, according to Sgt. Robert Gomez, spokesman with the El Paso Police Department.
Police were first notified of the crowd at about 8 p.m. by officials at the bus terminal, who said individuals were trying to board buses without tickets.
"All of a sudden a bunch of people show up; ICE drops them off," said Greyhound spokeswoman Crystal Booker. "We weren't expecting it. We are not given prior notice."
The waiting area at the bus terminal is small, Gomez said, and many people were left standing outside in the cold. He said the group of 211 undocumented immigrants included some families and small children.



ICE dumps hundreds of migrants with nowhere to go at a bus station on Christmas Eve
https://www.businessinsider.com/ice-christmas-eve-el-paso-undocumented-immigrants-texas-mexico-border-2018-12


Day three of mass migrant releases on Christmas Day
An additional 186 migrants were released in downtown El Paso by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement on Christmas Day. That’s in addition to the approximately 400 who that were released in the last two days.
https://cbs4local.com/news/local/day-three-of-mass-migrant-releases-on-christmas-day




"We are going to physically remove ICE from the county jails," Villanueva said, adding that he also planned to cut down the list of roughly 150 misdemeanor offenses that trigger department cooperation with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.

"We're going to pare that list down substantially" and reduce it to reflect only the most serious charges, the newly-elected sheriff told the board, saying he planned on "honoring the spirit and the letter of SB 54," sometimes called the "sanctuary state" law.
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Alex-Villanueva-Limit-Cooperation-ICE-503111661.html

Deaths in custody. Sexual violence. Hunger strikes. What we uncovered inside ICE facilities across the US
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2019/12/19/ice-asylum-under-trump-exclusive-look-us-immigration-detention/4381404002/

A man in Brooklyn was shot in the face by an Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agent while attempting to interrupt a deportation arrest Thursday morning.
ICE agents were attempting serve a deportation order to Gaspar Avendano Hernandez, when his girlfriend's son, Eric Diaz, intervened.
Diaz's brother said the ICE agents didn't identify themselves or show an arrest warrant, which caused Diaz to intervene the way that he did.
"He pointed the gun at my brother and didn't even hesitate and pulled the trigger," Cruz said, adding that his brother was tackled before he was shot.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/481899-new-york-man-shot-in-face-after-interrupting-ice-arrest