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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: cannon_fodder on February 12, 2018, 09:30:16 am



Title: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 12, 2018, 09:30:16 am
Thirty years ago Tulsa was the largest US City without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution.  The timing of this realization corresponded well with an urban renewal trend (and federal cash), so a bulldozed neighborhood was given to University Center at Tulsa (UCAT) to turn into a comprehensive 4 year University.  It was going to be a joint offering of Langston OU, OSU and NSU, but currently it is pretty much a branch of Oklahoma State instead of a stand-alone hi-bred University (and there is a debate whether that was for better or worse).  But there are many acres of land that were cleared, remain empty and without a scheduled plan 30 years later.

Apparently the City took note during the Vision process and started asking questions.  The TDA (fka Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority) feels like something should be done with the land, OSU-Tulsa (fka UCAT) is arguing that building one new structure each decade is good enough because all development after phase 1 is subject to funding.    They created a map to show how they might grow the campus:

(https://www.readfrontier.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/OSU-PLAN-2016-04-25-at-4.24.15-PM.png)

The TDA started making noise the last few years - essentially that UCAT needs to use it or lose it in regards to the land and that 30 years was long enough.  It  appears the conflict is centered on 8 blocks of land directly north of the Brady District.  UCAT has filed a lawsuit in Tulsa County to settle the matter, arguing that the deal doesn't specify a time limit for most of the development because it was subject to funding, so they can take as much time as needed so as long as they are making progress.

The TDA wants to see the land used.  UCAT can't afford to give away assets.

Clearly, huge implications for development and OSU-Tulsa.  I think we are better off if the land is either developed OR used to grow OSU Tulsa.  But sitting there doing nothing cannot be good for anyone.  My suggested compromise: OSU-Tulsa sells/leases/or otherwise makes the land available for development, brokered by the TDA, and uses the funds to grow higher education in Tulsa.  Land isn't in short supply for OSU-Tulsa, even if they gave up the 8 blocks in question they have acres to build on.  But apparently funding to grow the campus IS in short supply.

Win Win!  So basically, zero chance of that working out.   ;)


- - - -

The lawsuit, linked below, includes many interesting attachments.  Exhibit B the original master plan as envisioned for the campus (800k feet) and "urban renewal" for the area (go look, and go OOooo and Awwwww then remember it never happened).  It mentions a mixed-use lease-back development proposal from Ross Group in 2015 for the unused land (no details given). The suit discusses all kinds of other interesting ideas that haven't come to fruition (like taking more land in the area by Eminent Domain).  It also includes the original UCAT development agreement as Exhibit A.  Worth breezing through Petition (click the link, download the petition).
http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&number=CV-2018-127


Big Changes Could be Coming to OSU-Tulsa, Langston campus N. of Downtown.  April. 28, 2016.
Quote
The city of Tulsa, the Tulsa Development Authority and other interested parties plan to meet soon to discuss changing the redevelopment agreement for the area after some people questioned why more construction has not occurred on the property...

The 25-page contract sets out a timeline for development that Bussert believes the UCT Authority has met. He noted that the authority met its original obligation under the agreement when it built OSU-Tulsa’s Main Hall within two years of signing the contract.

Since then, Bussert said, the UCT Authority has built at least one OSU-Tulsa facility on the property each decade. Those projects include North Hall, the auditorium, the bookstore and Helmerich Research Center.
https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/the-university-center-at-tulsa-was-created-30-years-ago/

Tulsa Development Authority wants undeveloped UCAT property to revert to city
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-development-authority-wants-undeveloped-ucat-property-to-revert-to/article_26d8abec-eed1-5141-a0fb-37e663e86058.html

Attempted Land Grab Hurts City's Higher Ed Future - by the President of OSU-Tulsa and General Manager of UCAT
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/opinionfeatured/howard-barnett-jr-attempted-tda-land-grab-hurts-the-city/article_2fbfac27-3207-5613-ba0b-8a9f0daaea3a.html

Steps to Nowhere, Michael Bates, This Land Press
Quote
Urban renewal plans of this period called for the clearance of nearly all non-residential uses and multi-family housing, with commercial uses permitted only along Denver, south of Fairview. The city’s policy was to eliminate the mixed-use quality that set the Near Northside apart from other neighborhoods. Given time, those former commercial sites might have been filled with single-family homes.

Tulsa’s pursuit of state-funded higher education would change everything for the Near Northside. In 1982, the dream of a free-standing Tulsa State University gave way to an awkward compromise called the University Center at Tulsa (UCAT). Langston University, Oklahoma State University, University of Oklahoma, and Northeastern State University would offer graduate and upper-level undergraduate courses toward a degree from one of the four schools, on a 200-acre campus to be provided by the city.

The city chose the Greenwood District, north of I-244 and east of Detroit, as the heart of the new campus. The 84.6 acres had been home, in 1960, to about 2,200 people and dozens of businesses, but it had been leveled by the Model Cities urban renewal program and sat empty save for two churches, and a house. The plan to replace Greenwood with high-intensity residential and commercial development had gone nowhere.

In 1985, the City of Tulsa established the University Center at Tulsa Authority (UCATA) to acquire, improve, and maintain a campus on behalf of the four colleges. A firm drew up a master plan, and City of Tulsa voters approved funds for the first academic buildings, which opened in 1988. In 1986, the Tulsa Development Authority, successor to TURA, had signed a lengthy development agreement with UCATA, requiring the land be used for a public university and for development to occur in a timely fashion, and transferred the initial campus area to UCATA.
http://thislandpress.com/2014/06/18/steps-to-nowhere/



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 12, 2018, 10:56:28 am
What I think should happen:
1. OSU/UCAT should only keep the land west of MLK if they put together a plan to build dense student housing south of John Hope Franklin.  Otherwise it gets transferred unless at least a Phase 1 is built within 5 years.  
2. Keep all OSU and Langston academic and research functions east of MLK.  Update the campus master plan to consolidate parking into garages and build on the existing lots.
3. Move the "OSU Technology Park" to the south next to where the existing ARTC is located (on the parking lots directly east of Elgin).  This creates a synergy with future private development across the highway.  
4. Use that land along MLK for additional THA mixed-income housing development.  Tear down Sunset Plaza apartments.
5. Create a park space on the hillside from MLK to Greenwood with housing on top of the hill and the campus at the bottom.
6. Sell the land north of John Hope Franklin and west of MLK for private residential development to connect with Brady Heights


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 12, 2018, 01:29:42 pm
Such great potential.  Such horrible utilization/implementation.  It all goes to the failure of the Oklahoma Legislature and the State Board of Regents.  Again.  As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be...Oklahoma Fail...Amen...Amen...!

We probably still are the largest city without a comprehensive, public 4 year university...since we don't have that now, either.  We have OSU branch office...




Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TeeDub on February 12, 2018, 02:28:04 pm
Such great potential.  Such horrible utilization/implementation.  It all goes to the failure of the Oklahoma Legislature and the State Board of Regents.  Again.  As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be...Oklahoma Fail...Amen...Amen...!

We probably still are the largest city without a comprehensive, public 4 year university...since we don't have that now, either.  We have OSU branch office...


....and an OU branch office, a Langston branch office, a NSU branch office and Rogers State (if you go with metro area.)

While it might be nice to have a real 4 year college here, does it really matter if you go to TCC for free*, then get your 4 year from any of the above?

* Per the website...   Through Tulsa Achieves, full tuition and fees are provided for every high school senior, public or private, who graduates with a 2.0 grade point average and commits to begin college the fall following their senior year.    *Caveat also says "living in Tulsa County"


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 12, 2018, 03:07:44 pm
The part on that map that shows a future OSU library is one of my favorite spots in Tulsa.

You can access the hill from the north on a deteriorated driveway that goes up to a view of downtown that is great.

I shot this TV commercial there last summer...
https://www.ozonealert.com/videos.htm




Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Oil Capital on February 12, 2018, 03:20:31 pm
Thirty years ago Tulsa was the largest US City without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution.  The timing of this realization corresponded well with an urban renewal trend (and federal cash), so a bulldozed neighborhood was given to University Center at Tulsa (UCAT) to turn into a comprehensive 4 year University.  It was going to be a joint offering of Langston OU, OSU and NSU, but currently it is pretty much a branch of Oklahoma State instead of a stand-alone hi-bred University (and there is a debate whether that was for better or worse).  But there are many acres of land that were cleared, remain empty and without a scheduled plan 30 years later.

Apparently the City took note during the Vision process and started asking questions.  The TDA (fka Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority) feels like something should be done with the land, OSU-Tulsa (fka UCAT) is arguing that building one new structure each decade is good enough because all development after phase 1 is subject to funding.    They created a map to show how they might grow the campus:

I presume you really mean to say that Tulsa was the largest US metro area without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution (because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tulsa is even the largest city in the State of Oklahoma without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution) and I'm pretty sure there are other larger cities in the same boat.  As to metro areas, while it may have been true 30 years ago, we are any longer without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution. We now have Rogers State in Claremore.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 12, 2018, 03:23:15 pm
....and an OU branch office, a Langston branch office, a NSU branch office and Rogers State (if you go with metro area.)

While it might be nice to have a real 4 year college here, does it really matter if you go to TCC for free*, then get your 4 year from any of the above?

* Per the website...   Through Tulsa Achieves, full tuition and fees are provided for every high school senior, public or private, who graduates with a 2.0 grade point average and commits to begin college the fall following their senior year.    *Caveat also says "living in Tulsa County"


I don't argue with OSU Tulsa - I am an Aggie - but it isn't a Tulsa 4 yr university.   Still much better than I ever expected from this state.





Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 12, 2018, 03:26:07 pm
I presume you really mean to say that Tulsa was the largest US metro area without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution (because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tulsa is even the largest city in the State of Oklahoma without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution) and I'm pretty sure there are other larger cities in the same boat.  As to metro areas, while it may have been true 30 years ago, we are any longer without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution. We now have Rogers State in Claremore.


Rogers State isn't a comprehensive 4 yr university.  That was the original complaint by NE Oklahomans.  We ended up getting a hodge-podge of places putting programs together - and that isn't bad...it is working fairly well for many if not most.   It's not what it should have been, though.






Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 12, 2018, 04:00:08 pm

I don't argue with OSU Tulsa - I am an Aggie - but it isn't a Tulsa 4 yr university.   Still much better than I ever expected from this state.

OSU-Tulsa should be governed like UW-Milwaukee, as an independent urban extension of the OSU system.  From UW-Milwaukee's Wiki page:

Quote
University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee was founded with the belief that Milwaukee needed a great public university to become a great city. In 1955, the Wisconsin state legislature passed a bill to create a large public university that offered graduate programs in Wisconsin's largest city. In 1956, Wisconsin State College-Milwaukee merged with the University of Wisconsin–Extension's Milwaukee division (a graduate branch of the University of Wisconsin–Madison) to form the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee.

The University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee (also known as UW–Milwaukee, UWM or Milwaukee) is a public urban research university located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States. It is the largest university in the Milwaukee metropolitan area and a member of the University of Wisconsin System. It is also one of the two doctoral degree-granting public universities and the second largest university in Wisconsin.

The University consists of 14 schools and colleges, including the only graduate school of freshwater science in the U.S.,the first CEPH accredited dedicated school of public health in Wisconsin, and the State's only school of architecture. As of the 2015-2016 school year, the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee had an enrollment of 27,156, with 1,604 faculty members, offering 191 degree programs, including 94 bachelor's, 64 master's and 33 doctorate degrees.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: erfalf on February 13, 2018, 05:33:40 am

Rogers State isn't a comprehensive 4 yr university.  That was the original complaint by NE Oklahomans.  We ended up getting a hodge-podge of places putting programs together - and that isn't bad...it is working fairly well for many if not most.   It's not what it should have been, though.






To expand, Rogers State only recently became a four year school. It previously served as a junior college of sorts.

However, a closer option (BA) is Northeastern State. A much more reputable school, with a very impressive satellite campus. It is actually comical how much more impressive it is than the downtown OSU campus.

I actually had the pleasure of taking one course @ NSU-BA and was thoroughly impressed with the quality considering it wasn't their main campus. Satellite campus often feel like a second tier option. Rogers State Main campus feels like a 5th tier. And their Bartlesville campus feels like day care. (I will admit that results may have changed as my "samples" are getting dated-nearly 10 years old at this point).


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DowntownDan on February 13, 2018, 09:13:59 am
If TCC is going to handle the first two years, OSU-Tulsa (and the others) should at least be able to increase their offerings of degrees and graduate programs.  I looked recently and it's pretty limited what degree you can actually obtain from OSU-Tulsa, and specifically graduate degrees.  I agree with the Tulsa World editorial.  I don't really care who is right legally, the land needs to be put to better use sooner rather than later.  The TDA can develop some of the parcels on the western side of the tract and OSU would still have tons of room for expansion.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 13, 2018, 09:49:32 am
I presume you really mean to say that Tulsa was the largest US metro area without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution (because, correct me if I'm wrong

I did not research the truth of the matter asserted, I was repeating what the President of OSU Tulsa/UCAT said in his Tulsa World Article:
Quote
Tulsa, just 30 years ago, was the largest U.S. city without a public bachelor-degree-granting institution. Today, Tulsans can choose to earn a bachelor’s degree at Langston-Tulsa, OSU-Tulsa, OU-Tulsa or NSU-Broken Arrow.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/opinionfeatured/howard-barnett-jr-attempted-tda-land-grab-hurts-the-city/article_2fbfac27-3207-5613-ba0b-8a9f0daaea3a.html

As far as my opinion on the resulting many Universities,  I think it is inferior to the single large four year residential University planned.  Without disparaging the education of the institutions we do have, the result for Tulsa is not the same as having UCO and OU attached to OKC metro, or UNT, UT Dallas, UT Arlington, and UT Commerce in the MetroPlex. 

Large contiguous residential campuses bring together assets that regional commuter campuses do not.  Not only synergy in education, brand recognition, and campus life - but huge advantages for the metro.  Having Universities associated with your metro area improves the impression of your metro; few in the state hear OU, OSU, Rogers State, NSU and thinks TULSA--- let alone regionally or nationwide.  The impression of having higher education in your town is important.

There is also an obvious economic advantage.  People migrate to go to residential 4 year colleges.  They move from the rural areas to the city, from out of state, or even from out of the country.  A certain number of those newly educated people will stay and either be drawn into the labor force or start companies, others will leave with a favorable impression of the metro and spread the word.   Scholars, athletes, and tourists visiting campus raise awareness of what you have to offer.  And, of course, having 25,000 college students living right outside downtown Tulsa would be an economic boom for the area.

As it stands, we have education options that suffice for many area residents, that's good for the metro and good for the residents.  But it lacks the impact that a single larger University would have had. When large companies talk about relocating to a community with higher ed so they can partner for programs or recruit students, they often have an image of a well known flagship school, not 6 separate institutions to try and work with (NSU, RSU, OSU, OU, TCC, Langston).  When people think about a metro area with great higher education, it almost always includes one large flagship school.  When people move somewhere to go to college, it is most often for a residential campus.

Plus, most of these campuses are not a priority.  Look at what OSU-Tulsa has said - they lack the funding to build more than one building a decade in Tulsa, and wasn't the last significant academic building funded by a Tulsa bond vote anyway?  Meanwhile, in Stillwater, they are currently working on a new business building, dining center, human sciences building, engineering lab, performing center and parking garage (to say nothing of athletic facilities).  Both NSU-BA (3500 students)and OSU-Tulsa (2300) focus on juniors & seniors, as well as adult education. Langston is a satellite campus offering 9 undergrad degrees and a few masters in one building. OU-Tulsa has an interesting mix of programs and a growing campus, but only 1600 kids.  RSU has ~3k kids in Claremore and only offers a single graduate program (Masters in BA). 

That's a far cry from the promise of a full service university with 25k students and a residential campus.


(again, this isn't to say the quality of education can't be there, just that the impact on the city isn't the same IMO)

http://www.langston.edu/tulsa
http://www.ou.edu/content/tulsa/about.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_State_University
https://www.nsuok.edu/brokenarrow.aspx
http://tulsa.okstate.edu/about


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 13, 2018, 10:29:21 am
I'd like to see a Tulsa mayor run with this issue as the #1 priority.  Sadly it hasn't been a big enough issue for city leaders to try and change the status quo. 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: erfalf on February 13, 2018, 11:39:21 am
I just don't see the state ponying up astronomical amounts of money to build another campus when it appears the two majors they have are doing just fine with one location.

And I also don't see the two major private U's expanding dramatically, or even less likely a new entrant all together.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: rebound on February 13, 2018, 02:25:23 pm
I just don't see the state ponying up astronomical amounts of money to build another campus when it appears the two majors they have are doing just fine with one location.

And I also don't see the two major private U's expanding dramatically, or even less likely a new entrant all together.

Cannon's post almost perfectly encapsulates the issue, and I agree with it completely.  But I think you are right, particularly with the current political climate, I cannot see a new major public university happening in Tulsa.  (But the spot is perfect for it...)

But still,  the "University of Northern Oklahoma" (UNO!  We're Number One!) in Tulsa would be pretty cool.



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: erfalf on February 13, 2018, 02:42:33 pm
Cannon's post almost perfectly encapsulates the issue, and I agree with it completely.  But I think you are right, particularly with the current political climate, I cannot see a new major public university happening in Tulsa.  (But the spot is perfect for it...)

But still,  the "University of Northern Oklahoma" (UNO!  We're Number One!) in Tulsa would be pretty cool.



(http://www.noc.edu/Websites/northok/images/BRANDING/NOC-tagline-left-justify-rgb.jpg)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Conan71 on February 13, 2018, 03:19:50 pm
I'd like to see a Tulsa mayor run with this issue as the #1 priority.  Sadly it hasn't been a big enough issue for city leaders to try and change the status quo. 

Unfortunately, it's not up to city government other than lobbying a stodgy state regents board who has no interest in awarding something like this to Tulsa.  It's just like how OKC generally is favored over Tulsa when it comes to spreading state government money around.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on February 13, 2018, 03:25:00 pm
I don’t know that an entirely new school is needed, or really any more money. We just need a reorganization of existing programs and buildings.

OSU-Tulsa should be its own stand-alone four year university and can be easily created by OSU-Tulsa taking over TCC downtown, Langston Tulsa and the OSU Health Sciences Center. The school certainly can remain under the OSU regents and still be part of the OSU college system. Overnight you would have a cohesive downtown research university with 10-12,000 students with a great ability to grow.

Similarly NSU-Broken Arrow should take over TCC Southeast, which ALSO should become a four year+ standalone university with a combined 6-8,000 students

TCC would retain its other campuses and remain a much smaller community college. The Tulsa area would have a balanced group of public colleges with a full four year PHD granting university with a medical school downtown and four year directional schools on the north side (RSU) and  southside (NSU) and then a community college with scattered campuses in Owasso, north Tulsa, midtown Tulsa, west Tulsa, Glenpool and Jenks (Riverside Airport).


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 13, 2018, 03:45:04 pm
I don’t know that an entirely new school is needed, or really any more money. We just need a reorganization of existing programs and buildings.

OSU-Tulsa should be its own stand-alone four year university and can be easily created by OSU-Tulsa taking over TCC downtown, Langston Tulsa and the OSU Health Sciences Center. The school certainly can remain under the OSU regents and still be part of the OSU college system. Overnight you would have a cohesive downtown research university with 10-12,000 students with a great ability to grow.

Similarly NSU-Broken Arrow should take over TCC Southeast, which ALSO should become a four year+ standalone university with a combined 6-8,000 students

TCC would retain its other campuses and remain a much smaller community college. The Tulsa area would have a balanced group of public colleges with a full four year PHD granting university with a medical school downtown and four year directional schools on the north side (RSU) and  southside (NSU) and then a community college with scattered campuses in Owasso, north Tulsa, midtown Tulsa, west Tulsa, Glenpool and Jenks (Riverside Airport).


This is a solid plan but would take some wrestling with TCC to make it happen.  You could honestly keep TCC in its current form but reorganize OSU and OU into more stand-alone entities that operate as their own institutions under the OU/OSU system umbrella.  They do this in many other states, see the UW-Milwaukee example I already gave and also in Colorado where CU-Denver is the urban research affiliate of CU-Boulder and the health science center is its own campus as well.  

For OSU they would have the following:
- flagship campus (Stillwater)
- urban/research campus (OSU-Tulsa)
- health sciences center (part of OSU-Tulsa)
- vocational campuses (OSU-OKC and OSU-Okmulgee)

For OU they would have the following:
- flagship campus and research park (Norman)
- urban campus (OU-Tulsa)
- health sciences center (OKC)
- school of community medicine (part of OU-Tulsa j/v with TU)

OSU would cover downtown, OU would have midtown and NSU south Tulsa/Broken Arrow.  I absolutely think TCC and Tulsa Tech should merge into one entity however.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 13, 2018, 04:46:02 pm
To expand, Rogers State only recently became a four year school. It previously served as a junior college of sorts.

However, a closer option (BA) is Northeastern State. A much more reputable school, with a very impressive satellite campus. It is actually comical how much more impressive it is than the downtown OSU campus.

I actually had the pleasure of taking one course @ NSU-BA and was thoroughly impressed with the quality considering it wasn't their main campus. Satellite campus often feel like a second tier option. Rogers State Main campus feels like a 5th tier. And their Bartlesville campus feels like day care. (I will admit that results may have changed as my "samples" are getting dated-nearly 10 years old at this point).


And before that it was Oklahoma Military Academy.   My friends and I were all threatened with being sent there if we didn't clean up our act...kind of like being threatened with reform school...

I took a couple courses at OSU Tulsa in the deep, dark, past.  Good place.  Wish they offered an in-house PhD - without having to do all the BOB travel...would try to get that.



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 13, 2018, 04:58:41 pm
Cannon's post almost perfectly encapsulates the issue, and I agree with it completely.  But I think you are right, particularly with the current political climate, I cannot see a new major public university happening in Tulsa.  (But the spot is perfect for it...)

But still,  the "University of Northern Oklahoma" (UNO!  We're Number One!) in Tulsa would be pretty cool.




Oklahoma Northern... there is a nice 'ring' to both those... 


Won't ever get one here since we are still in the process of "gutting" education in this state.  Every single one of the Republicontin Clown Show candidates is blathering about cutting out waste or "making turnpikes free again"...   Well they have cut out more meat than all the waste ever combined. 

And geez, Richardson, are you really that stupid about your own state to actually think turnpikes were ever free to begin with??  There is no hope....we are lost....


To paraphrase; we in Oklahoma offer the cure for hope, and for ridiculously trumped up prices....

www.despair.com


Pyramid poster is one of my favorites....








Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: rebound on February 13, 2018, 05:32:22 pm
(http://www.noc.edu/Websites/northok/images/BRANDING/NOC-tagline-left-justify-rgb.jpg)

Yeah, but it's all in the name.   "Northern Oklahoma College" is not "University of Northern Oklahoma!" (Sidebar. While I was ideating on this, I was really irritated that NSU used green as their primary color.  The school UNO tagline was going to be "This Is Green Country!"  Which was a perfect fit, but alas...)

If anyone doesn't think that the name means a lot, ask North Texas.  They tried to get "Texas State" back in the 90's.  The university was growing and the football team was improving, and as no university with "a direction" in the name has ever won a National Championship, they wanted the Texas State name, and of course the general prestige.  With the proximity to the Metroplex, that would have been a major threat to UT, TAMU, and TT, and so the political shenanigans started.  Eventually leading to Southwest Texas State (a very non-threatening school in San Marcos) getting the name.   


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Red Arrow on February 13, 2018, 10:31:18 pm
community college with scattered campuses in Owasso, north Tulsa, midtown Tulsa, west Tulsa, Glenpool and Jenks (Riverside Airport).

Everyone knows which airport you are mentioning but it is actually in Tulsa, not Jenks.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2018, 09:01:29 am
Let's be honest...   The real push back will be the board of reagents from all the above universities.

No one wants to give up their piggy bank.    There is a lot of money in education and a large loss (look at how much OU/OSU recently spent on mandatory University housing for incoming freshmen.)   Diverting that money to a new university that will most likely be primarily a commuter campus is a big money looser.


OSU makes as almost as much in room and board as they do on tuition and fees.  (Oklahoma resident)
Tuition and Fees     $9,520
Room and Board            $8,840

OU is roughly $10k
Double: $4,714/semester; $9,428/year
Double: $5,294/semester; $10,588/year

NSU is $6860  (Not sure if this includes meals.)

That is a lot of captive money to give up!


https://admissions.okstate.edu/cost-aid/paying-college.html
http://www.ou.edu/housingandfood/residence_halls/rates.html
https://www.nsuok.edu/FutureStudents/CostCalculator.aspx


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on February 14, 2018, 09:41:42 am
Let's be honest...   The real push back will be the board of reagents from all the above universities.

No one wants to give up their piggy bank.    There is a lot of money in education and a large loss (look at how much OU/OSU recently spent on mandatory University housing for incoming freshmen.)   Diverting that money to a new university that will most likely be primarily a commuter campus is a big money looser.


OSU makes as almost as much in room and board as they do on tuition and fees.  (Oklahoma resident)
Tuition and Fees     $9,520
Room and Board            $8,840

OU is roughly $10k
Double: $4,714/semester; $9,428/year
Double: $5,294/semester; $10,588/year

NSU is $6860  (Not sure if this includes meals.)

That is a lot of captive money to give up!


https://admissions.okstate.edu/cost-aid/paying-college.html
http://www.ou.edu/housingandfood/residence_halls/rates.html
https://www.nsuok.edu/FutureStudents/CostCalculator.aspx

Yes, the main entities that are keeping Tulsa from having a real public university aren’t people at all. They are the entities of OU, OSU, TCC and Langston. It’s not the money that the state spends at issue, it’s the political will to remind those entities that they exist to serve the people, not the other way around, and sometimes to meet the needs of the people, those entities are going to have to give up some power.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 14, 2018, 09:49:49 am
Let's be honest...   The real push back will be the board of reagents from all the above universities.

No one wants to give up their piggy bank.    There is a lot of money in education and a large loss (look at how much OU/OSU recently spent on mandatory University housing for incoming freshmen.)   Diverting that money to a new university that will most likely be primarily a commuter campus is a big money looser.


OSU makes as almost as much in room and board as they do on tuition and fees.  (Oklahoma resident)
Tuition and Fees     $9,520
Room and Board            $8,840

OU is roughly $10k
Double: $4,714/semester; $9,428/year
Double: $5,294/semester; $10,588/year

NSU is $6860  (Not sure if this includes meals.)

That is a lot of captive money to give up!


https://admissions.okstate.edu/cost-aid/paying-college.html
http://www.ou.edu/housingandfood/residence_halls/rates.html
https://www.nsuok.edu/FutureStudents/CostCalculator.aspx

No reason they can't do the same thing with their respective Tulsa campuses, especially OSU which right now has free land next to the state's premier urban arts district to build housing. 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: rebound on February 14, 2018, 10:10:50 am
No reason they can't do the same thing with their respective Tulsa campuses, especially OSU which right now has free land next to the state's premier urban arts district to build housing. 

It does make sense for OSU to build some housing on their Tulsa campus.  It would facilitate students who want to live in a bigger city but still attend OSU.  They already have the BOB (big orange bus:  https://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/bob/ (https://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/bob/)) that runs between the two campuses, for those students that need to take Stillwater classes. 



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2018, 01:19:39 pm
It does make sense for OSU to build some housing on their Tulsa campus.  It would facilitate students who want to live in a bigger city but still attend OSU.  They already have the BOB (big orange bus:  https://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/bob/ (https://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/bob/)) that runs between the two campuses, for those students that need to take Stillwater classes.  



Apparently they are having trouble filling the housing they have available in Stillwater..   Why would they voluntarily lose more money?

Quote
Even OSU is adjusting housing rates, offering Apple Watches and free parking to returning students and touting its amenities, including the Colvin Recreation Center, trying to fill dormitories. But many students are opting for an upscale experience close to campus that allows them to embrace the freedom of off-campus living.

http://www.ocolly.com/news/student-housing-boom-puts-pressure-on-landlords-osu/article_ac368ba4-22f5-11e7-8080-3b2914635a61.html


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 14, 2018, 02:11:20 pm
Apparently they are having trouble filling the housing they have available in Stillwater..   Why would they voluntarily lose more money?

http://www.ocolly.com/news/student-housing-boom-puts-pressure-on-landlords-osu/article_ac368ba4-22f5-11e7-8080-3b2914635a61.html

Stillwater, like Norman, has an over-saturated student apartment market.  Tulsa doesn't currently have any kind of student housing at either OU or OSU.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DowntownDan on February 17, 2018, 10:23:05 am
They could offer housing to TCC students too who want to move out of their parents house but not to Norman or Stillwater.  Offer a shuttle to the downtown campus (or they could bike), maybe also shuttle to other campuses maybe if there's demand.  Maybe a small fee to cover costs.  If we're going to settle into the TCC then OSU/OU/Langston-Tulsa model, might as well go all in and connect them as much as possible.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TeeDub on February 17, 2018, 11:09:56 am
They could offer housing to TCC students too who want to move out of their parents house but not to Norman or Stillwater.  Offer a shuttle to the downtown campus (or they could bike), maybe also shuttle to other campuses maybe if there's demand.  Maybe a small fee to cover costs.  If we're going to settle into the TCC then OSU/OU/Langston-Tulsa model, might as well go all in and connect them as much as possible.

They have those...  They are called apartments.   Student loans pay for housing whether it be on or off campus.

Most all the advisors at OSU/NSU (my only personal experience) tell you what classes to take at TCC before finishing out your degree with them....   So they do try to work together somewhat.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2018, 12:22:39 pm
They have those...  They are called apartments.   Student loans pay for housing whether it be on or off campus.

Most all the advisors at OSU/NSU (my only personal experience) tell you what classes to take at TCC before finishing out your degree with them....   So they do try to work together somewhat.

And "surprisingly" (sarc) the off campus variety always manage to offer a better price point, or better options in general than campus housing. It's as if private developers are more likely to meat the demand of potential buyers better than a giant bureaucracy or something.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2018, 12:30:09 pm
I know it's not exactly the same, but a decade or so ago Rogers State acquired a (historically significant) building in downtown Bartlesville in order to expand their campus. I think expectations were quite high this would bring some sort of economic development to the area but as far as I can tell that hasn't really panned out. And outside of the replacement of windows for that building (which I'm sure wasn't cheap) I haven't really noticed a difference in the building itself either. But last I heard, roughly 500-600 students utilize the "campus". With the close proximity to ConocoPhillips (a major employer) and the big push for the nursing program it seemed like they had some ties that could make it work. But for the most part it seems to be utilized be local high school students who are concurrently enrolled and nursing students who work elsewhere. I'm sure it's different than OSU in many MANY regards, but both were downtown campus that had great hopes of turning the areas around, to no avail.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on February 20, 2018, 02:10:43 pm
I know it's not exactly the same, but a decade or so ago Rogers State acquired a (historically significant) building in downtown Bartlesville in order to expand their campus. I think expectations were quite high this would bring some sort of economic development to the area but as far as I can tell that hasn't really panned out. And outside of the replacement of windows for that building (which I'm sure wasn't cheap) I haven't really noticed a difference in the building itself either. But last I heard, roughly 500-600 students utilize the "campus". With the close proximity to ConocoPhillips (a major employer) and the big push for the nursing program it seemed like they had some ties that could make it work. But for the most part it seems to be utilized be local high school students who are concurrently enrolled and nursing students who work elsewhere. I'm sure it's different than OSU in many MANY regards, but both were downtown campus that had great hopes of turning the areas around, to no avail.

A commuter campus doesn't add to it's surroundings the same way a residential campus does. It doesn't even have the same kind of students in most cases.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TeeDub on February 20, 2018, 02:33:39 pm
A commuter campus doesn't add to it's surroundings the same way a residential campus does. It doesn't even have the same kind of students in most cases.

Less drug use and higher attendance from what I can tell.    (Sorry, seemed funny at the time.)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on February 20, 2018, 05:56:45 pm
Less drug use and higher attendance from what I can tell.    (Sorry, seemed funny at the time.)

Kids with munchies tend to go in search of nearby snacks.

Parents taking night classes tend to want to go home, which is miles from the school.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on June 24, 2018, 08:02:55 pm
I was going to reply to the other thread but figured this was a better place to keep this discussion.  I found an O'Colly (OSU student newspaper) article from October 2016 about how to reverse declining enrollment at OSU-Tulsa with some interesting quotes:

Quote
“OSU-Tulsa has been struggling for some time with its enrollment,” according to the faculty council meeting minutes. “Politically, it is not possible just to close it. There is a role it can play, but we are currently sorting this out.”

Enrollment at OSU-Tulsa, which opened in 1999, has steadily declined since 2012, according to OSU data. OSU-Tulsa President Howard Barnett told the O’Colly the campus saw an increase in enrollment after the Great Recession but has struggled since those students graduated.

Quote
As a part of the legislation passed in the late 1990s, OSU-Tulsa inherited the campus formerly known as the University Center at Tulsa, which offered upper-division and graduate courses from OSU, the University of Oklahoma, Northeastern State University and Langston University.

As part of a political and legal agreement, OSU-Tulsa can’t offer any freshman and sophomore courses and is prohibited from offering the same majors as Langston-Tulsa.

“Accounting hurts; psychology hurts; those are our two most inquired about programs that we don’t have, but it’s the law,” Barnett said.

Sandefur told the O’Colly closing the Tulsa campus is something that has been talked about but not seriously considered.

Quote
When OSU-Tulsa opened in 1999, former OSU President Jim Halligan’s vision was to have 20,000 students enrolled at the campus by 2020.

With its current enrollment at 2,400 students, it’s unlikely the campus will meet the proposed goal.

“That was my vision at the time, and indeed the probability it will be realized by 2020 is indeed remote,” said Sen. Halligan, R-Stillwater.

Halligan said he supported the creation of OSU-Tulsa because he believed OSU needed a “vibrant” presence in Tulsa for the city to succeed.

“In order for Oklahoma to succeed, both Tulsa and Oklahoma City must succeed — they are the economic engines of the state,” Halligan said.

He said he believes making OSU-Tulsa larger is one of the keys to Tulsa’s growth and prosperity. In the future, he would like to see more of a focus on biomedical engineering and majors tailored to healthcare, he said.

“That, to me, is a real opportunity for the future,” Halligan said.

Likewise, Barnett envisions OSU-Tulsa growing and accommodating younger students.

“I see (OSU-Tulsa) growing," Barnett said. “And I see our student body, if we do this right, maybe getting a little bit younger.”

Some of my thoughts:
1. If OSU doesn't want (or need) to have 20,000 students then they absolutely do not need the land west of MLK and north of 244, and it should be redeveloped into mixed-use/housing.  This is vacant land just sitting next to one of the most vibrant urban districts in the region, and there is now demand to develop it.

2. The law that hamstrings OU and OSU because of Langston needs to be changed.  There is no reason for that school to hold the city hostage like it is currently doing.  I'd like to see city leaders and Tulsa's elected state reps take on this issue.

3. OSU should recreate the master plan that they did back in the late 90's but with a more realistic goal of maybe 5,000 students (which is more than TU) and filling in the gaps around the existing campus north of 244 and east of MLK.  

4. I agree with Jim Halligan that biomedical engineering and healthcare are key programs for the future.  These programs would make more sense though to be part of the OSU Health Sciences Center which already has its own campus by the river, along with the OSU hospital downtown.  I'd like to see OSU continue to build up its medical school and health sciences programs, and let the Greenwood campus focus on programs like engineering, education, business and technology.

5. I'd like to see OSU do more research activity in Tulsa.  Maybe a second ATRC on the other side of Elgin?  Maybe a research building on the other side of 244 (old warehouses by the Gypsy coffeehouse).  I used to say the Evans Fintube would be perfect for this but I guess it's going to be a BMX facility.

http://www.ocolly.com/news/osu-taking-measures-to-improve-tulsa-campus/article_fb35928a-93ea-11e6-be1b-776729da446f.html (http://www.ocolly.com/news/osu-taking-measures-to-improve-tulsa-campus/article_fb35928a-93ea-11e6-be1b-776729da446f.html)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 25, 2018, 09:32:03 am
I was going to reply to the other thread but figured this was a better place to keep this discussion.  I found an O'Colly (OSU student newspaper) article from October 2016 about how to reverse declining enrollment at OSU-Tulsa with some interesting quotes:




We got a "4 yr university - not" just to get people to shut up about it.  At one time there was a lot of irritation due to Tulsa being left out of such an important segment of the education market.  Since that time, every step of the way, it has been an unwanted step-child to the state and has been left to wither and die.   2,400 students??  Ridiculous.  Tulsa alone could support at least a 10,000 student university, and would more likely be 20-25k if it were made into a real university.

Complacency and malicious intent reigns supreme on this as well as so many other facets of Okrahoma life!



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Dspike on June 26, 2018, 08:16:04 am
The Langston restriction is not a major impediment because Langston-Tulsa offers so few majors. The TCC restriction barring any first or second year courses makes it impossible for OSU-Tulsa to be a school you can attend for all four years and defeats any real effort to create a campus culture with dorms.

OSU-Tulsa could be a 20,000 person university if it could offer the same courses, dorms, lifestyle as OU and OSU.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 26, 2018, 01:12:05 pm
Don't ask why this is on a geological map, but...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Map_Cities_Oklahoma_Public_universities_JPEG.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_universities_in_Oklahoma


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DTowner on June 26, 2018, 02:20:27 pm
Is NEO Broken Arrow a 4-year degree granting university?

Either way, it seems reasonable to conclude that the OSU-Tulsa experiment has failed to solve the problem.  Either through structural design defects or execution by the OSU board of regents, stalling at 2,400 students and the limited course/degree offerings does not give Tulsa anything near the true public university a city our size needs.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on June 26, 2018, 02:33:07 pm
Is NEO Broken Arrow a 4-year degree granting university?

Either way, it seems reasonable to conclude that the OSU-Tulsa experiment has failed to solve the problem.  Either through structural design defects or execution by the OSU board of regents, stalling at 2,400 students and the limited course/degree offerings does not give Tulsa anything near the true public university a city our size needs.


Exactly, now it's time to come up with a solution and get the appropriate backing from city and state leaders.  GT Bynum has been silent on this issue.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DTowner on June 26, 2018, 03:32:08 pm
Exactly, now it's time to come up with a solution and get the appropriate backing from city and state leaders.  GT Bynum has been silent on this issue.


I’ve never fully understood how Tulsa’s higher ed options got so wrapped up with a historical black college located in a city 70+ miles from Tulsa.  If I recall correctly, the Langston component in this (going back to the old UCAT) is based on some court decree related to desegregation.  It would be nice if we had state leaders that made public higher ed in Tulsa a priority, but the past 3 governors (both Democrat and Republican) have shown little interest in anything Tulsa except our votes around election time.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on June 26, 2018, 09:30:39 pm
I’ve never fully understood how Tulsa’s higher ed options got so wrapped up with a historical black college located in a city 70+ miles from Tulsa.  If I recall correctly, the Langston component in this (going back to the old UCAT) is based on some court decree related to desegregation.  It would be nice if we had state leaders that made public higher ed in Tulsa a priority, but the past 3 governors (both Democrat and Republican) have shown little interest in anything Tulsa except our votes around election time.

Kevin Stitt is from Tulsa and made the Republican runoff for Governor.    :-\


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2018, 08:36:30 am
Kevin Stitt is from Tulsa and made the Republican runoff for Governor.    :-\


That ain't a good thing.   Cornett would be better than him.  Edmondson better than Cornett.



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: carltonplace on June 27, 2018, 08:41:04 am
Kevin Stitt is from Tulsa and made the Republican runoff for Governor.    :-\

Yea, but he scares the ever living Trump out of me.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on June 29, 2018, 12:27:47 am
A good comparison and role model for OSU should be the University of Nebraska system.  They have the main campus in Lincoln but have the urban campus in Omaha with 15k+ students as well as the medical school and health sciences center. 

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/omaha.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/2b/a2b5d2be-5683-11e5-9c1a-675410c07d05/55ef7321e3981.image.jpg)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 29, 2018, 07:29:44 am
A good comparison and role model for OSU should be the University of Nebraska system.  They have the main campus in Lincoln but have the urban campus in Omaha with 15k+ students...

And their campus in Omaha is ~ 92 acres:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/University+of+Nebraska+Omaha/@41.2587935,-96.0126068,855m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x4dbea6a55857784f!8m2!3d41.2582497!4d-96.0107049

 I believe OSU Tulsa lays claim to 200 acres north of 244.
https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/the-university-center-at-tulsa-was-created-30-years-ago/

So it would be appropriately sized for 25,000+ students.  If there is a plan for that, I'm all for it. Publish the plan, put in action, use the land. If you're going to have 15k students, then it seems 100 acres works well enough for UN of Omaha. Sell/lease/develop the other 100 acres to fund your expansion and lets go!


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on September 07, 2018, 08:12:51 am
Lots of changes potentially coming for Greenwood/Brady Heights.  Glad they finally realized OSU doesn't need 200 acres and can grow on its existing footprint by infilling parking lots.  I personally would love to see more brownstones like the ones by Centennial Park in the area west of MLK mixed in with single family homes that match the character of Brady Heights (front porches, alley garages, etc).

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124088651675/small/1536329266726/enhance)

Quote
More than three decades later, OSU-Tulsa is charged by law with providing a comprehensive public university for Tulsa and the surrounding area. Only OSU and Langston are on the campus today.

Peters said the city and TDA will engage in a “very comprehensive development process to ensure that we’re listening to the citizens of that area.” He added that changes in higher education and redevelopment downtown and in the former Brady District (now known as the Tulsa Arts District) gave the urban renewal discussions more meaning.

“Maybe if downtown and Brady had not developed like it has, we wouldn’t even need to be talking about this,” Peters said in an interview after the vote. “But here we are right across the highway from the new OK Pops, from Cain’s Ballroom, just all of the positive things that have taken place.

“It’s really an unusual opportunity for the city to offer up to developers a substantial portion of the land that has great access. We hope that we’re able to find developers and lay out some comprehensive plan that helps downtown, helps the Brady and especially helps north Tulsa development. That’s the big goal we have here.”

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/tda-and-ucat-authority-reach-mediation-agreement-in-land-dispute/article_c58cc35f-7944-559c-a60c-6e9e7b11571f.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/tda-and-ucat-authority-reach-mediation-agreement-in-land-dispute/article_c58cc35f-7944-559c-a60c-6e9e7b11571f.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Hoss on September 07, 2018, 08:38:56 am
Lots of changes potentially coming for Greenwood/Brady Heights.  Glad they finally realized OSU doesn't need 200 acres and can grow on its existing footprint by infilling parking lots.  I personally would love to see more brownstones like the ones by Centennial Park in the area west of MLK mixed in with single family homes that match the character of Brady Heights (front porches, alley garages, etc).

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124088651675/small/1536329266726/enhance)

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/tda-and-ucat-authority-reach-mediation-agreement-in-land-dispute/article_c58cc35f-7944-559c-a60c-6e9e7b11571f.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/tda-and-ucat-authority-reach-mediation-agreement-in-land-dispute/article_c58cc35f-7944-559c-a60c-6e9e7b11571f.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share)

Agreed.  I have a good friend who lives in an older brownstone type apartment smack in the middle of Brady Heights.  I love that neighborhood and if there were a way I could move to it I would but currently live in a house in Clarland Acres that's paid for.  Brady Heights has character and the single family dwellings there with deep front porches are awesome.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on December 07, 2018, 12:46:42 pm
Virginia Tech is opening a new tech and engineering-focused campus near the new Amazon HQ in Arlington.  This will be a urban campus as a counter-part to the flagship Blacksburg campus in SW Virginia.  This would be a good case study for OSU, a fellow land-grant institution, in how to approach their urban campus in Tulsa.

Quote
Tech’s Blacksburg campus will also see growth from the announcement, Sands said.

The university plans to add 2,000 undergraduate students who will work in software engineering and computer science to add to a pipeline from Tech to Amazon. The company is already a top 10 recruiter of Virginia Tech students, said Julia Ross, the College of Engineering dean.

Sound familiar? 
Quote
Tech already has a robust presence in the region with seven locations and about 160 faculty. The school also draws many of its students from the area and estimates it has 60,000 alumni in Northern Virginia.

Even a fraction of this would be transformative for downtown
Quote
The campus will feature the following:

300,000 square feet of academic space and cutting-edge R&D facilities.
250,000 square feet of partner space dedicated to startups and corporate facilities.
350,000 square feet of housing space for students and faculty.
100,000 square feet of retail and support spaces.

https://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/virginia_tech/virginia-tech-to-open-billion-campus-in-northern-virginia-next/article_dc52bdeb-2efd-599b-9a54-09ce7a4ba8ea.html (https://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/virginia_tech/virginia-tech-to-open-billion-campus-in-northern-virginia-next/article_dc52bdeb-2efd-599b-9a54-09ce7a4ba8ea.html)



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 23, 2019, 05:23:42 pm
Interesting to hear OSU President Burns Hargis now openly talking about expanding OSU-Tulsa.  This echoes similar comments from President Gallogly at OU.  Hope this is the start of eventual expansion at both universities.  I still think there is the whole TCC and Langston issue that has to be resolved. 

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/osu-s-hargis-says-splintered-higher-education-structure-in-tulsa/article_c1e11865-68de-54dc-b764-757621c97d4e.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/osu-s-hargis-says-splintered-higher-education-structure-in-tulsa/article_c1e11865-68de-54dc-b764-757621c97d4e.html)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 23, 2019, 07:18:03 pm
Interesting to hear OSU President Burns Hargis now openly talking about expanding OSU-Tulsa.  This echoes similar comments from President Gallogly at OU.  Hope this is the start of eventual expansion at both universities.  I still think there is the whole TCC and Langston issue that has to be resolved. 

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/osu-s-hargis-says-splintered-higher-education-structure-in-tulsa/article_c1e11865-68de-54dc-b764-757621c97d4e.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/osu-s-hargis-says-splintered-higher-education-structure-in-tulsa/article_c1e11865-68de-54dc-b764-757621c97d4e.html)


Hope so!


But, gee...I wonder where I heard that, and how many times, over the last 49 years...since TJC/TCC opened....


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on February 24, 2019, 03:25:12 pm

Hope so!


But, gee...I wonder where I heard that, and how many times, over the last 49 years...since TJC/TCC opened....


Exactly, for this to move forward you'll need GT Bynum's support as well as the council and elected state reps from Tulsa.  I love the idea of a tech, engineering and research-focused OSU downtown (like the VT example I posted a few months ago), a health sciences-focused OU in Midtown and TCC filling in the gaps with undergraduate studies.  TU will continue to be Tulsa's premier university and is absolutely critical that it stays a top school and grows into a larger more influential institution.  And as much as we might deride ORU it has ~4,000 students, including many international students, and 900 employees making it one of the larger employers in south Tulsa.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 01, 2019, 11:04:15 am
Exactly, for this to move forward you'll need GT Bynum's support as well as the council and elected state reps from Tulsa.  I love the idea of a tech, engineering and research-focused OSU downtown (like the VT example I posted a few months ago), a health sciences-focused OU in Midtown and TCC filling in the gaps with undergraduate studies.  TU will continue to be Tulsa's premier university and is absolutely critical that it stays a top school and grows into a larger more influential institution.  And as much as we might deride ORU it has ~4,000 students, including many international students, and 900 employees making it one of the larger employers in south Tulsa.

TU will remain the city's (and state's) premier university, but the vast majority of its students are from other states and countries. Way back in the day, the majority were from Tulsa or at least Oklahoma, but with the way they started going for more strict academic standards, the radius of applicants naturally expanded. It seems like most are from Missouri or Texas. Great to have a good university, but most TU alumni end up moving out of state (Probably the same for OU, but not as large of a proportion).

A public university in Tulsa would likely be a bit boost for bachelor attainment rates because, initially, it would be far more Tulsans/Oklahomans going, especially those who don't have the means or desire to move to the sticks for college. Over time, as certain programs thrive, the applicants would come from much farther out. That is another benefit is bringing in outside minds who can contribute and maybe stick around. Austin Texas would not be what it was if the main UT campus would've been put in another city or even suburb as is the case for Norman/OKC. Having the campus right by downtown brings in so much to that area and students often want to stay there when they graduate. Tulsa has a pretty cool scene already. Given a full 4-year university and it could really boost the urban areas.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DowntownDan on March 04, 2019, 10:29:40 am
It almost seems too late since NSU and Langston already built new campuses. If they had struck before then OU and OSU could have combined for an IUPUI type relationship discussed in the article. But any relationship that would undermine what appear to be extensive investments by LU and NSU would likely not work. If it weren't cost prohibitive, I wish OSU could fund a high speed rail between the Stillwater and Tulsa campuses and make them a single 50,000+ student university with a 20-30 minute train ride between campuses and living options in downtown Tulsa for those who are so inclined. I know they have the Big Orange Bus but with a travel time of an hour or more is just too long for any real feeling of connectivity. High speed that could cut that in half or less would be the only way to really make them a single campus, especially since the ideal would be campus to campus with no need for cars on the other end.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on March 04, 2019, 11:22:46 am
It almost seems too late since NSU and Langston already built new campuses. If they had struck before then OU and OSU could have combined for an IUPUI type relationship discussed in the article. But any relationship that would undermine what appear to be extensive investments by LU and NSU would likely not work. If it weren't cost prohibitive, I wish OSU could fund a high speed rail between the Stillwater and Tulsa campuses and make them a single 50,000+ student university with a 20-30 minute train ride between campuses and living options in downtown Tulsa for those who are so inclined. I know they have the Big Orange Bus but with a travel time of an hour or more is just too long for any real feeling of connectivity. High speed that could cut that in half or less would be the only way to really make them a single campus, especially since the ideal would be campus to campus with no need for cars on the other end.

I think you need to reshuffle the deck and take Langston, NSU and TCC out of it so OSU and OU can do what they want on their respective campuses. 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: rebound on March 04, 2019, 11:32:26 am
It almost seems too late since NSU and Langston already built new campuses. If they had struck before then OU and OSU could have combined for an IUPUI type relationship discussed in the article. But any relationship that would undermine what appear to be extensive investments by LU and NSU would likely not work. If it weren't cost prohibitive, I wish OSU could fund a high speed rail between the Stillwater and Tulsa campuses and make them a single 50,000+ student university with a 20-30 minute train ride between campuses and living options in downtown Tulsa for those who are so inclined. I know they have the Big Orange Bus but with a travel time of an hour or more is just too long for any real feeling of connectivity. High speed that could cut that in half or less would be the only way to really make them a single campus, especially since the ideal would be campus to campus with no need for cars on the other end.

I think you are over-thinking the impact of NSU and Langston.   Also, while cool, a high-speed rail is way overkill for that ride.   The ride on the bus is perfect for some reading or finishing some homework, etc.  Maybe add one additional bus, and be sure there is high speed internet available on the buses, and they are good to go from an infrastructure position.  Still need to address cost.  Current bus pricing is too high for daily student commuting.  Add the Tulsa housing (to get the campus-to-campus feel you mention), and lower the bus prices, and also open up the degree programs available for Tulsa-based students, and it would be a huge success. 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DowntownDan on March 04, 2019, 12:54:17 pm
Is there any way for OSU (or OU or both) to absorb TCC, award associate degrees, while ensuring that all (or most) credits are applied towards a bachelors degree if a student so chooses? Maybe TCC as a junior college could be the IUPUI in this scenario with much clearer bachelor paths at OU and OSU Tulsa campuses. It seems that TCC is always raised as a roadblock to a full 4-year public university in Tulsa. Just spitballing here, seems like we always end up in the same place with this discussion.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on March 04, 2019, 10:28:36 pm
Is there any way for OSU (or OU or both) to absorb TCC, award associate degrees, while ensuring that all (or most) credits are applied towards a bachelors degree if a student so chooses? Maybe TCC as a junior college could be the IUPUI in this scenario with much clearer bachelor paths at OU and OSU Tulsa campuses. It seems that TCC is always raised as a roadblock to a full 4-year public university in Tulsa. Just spitballing here, seems like we always end up in the same place with this discussion.

Honestly this shouldn't be that hard, plenty of cities have a community college system and a public satellite of the state university that co-exist.  I mentioned Omaha because it is a similarly sized city and one of our peer cities.  They have Metropolitan Community College which like TCC awards associates degrees and has multiple campuses.  They also have a University of Nebraska-Omaha (similar to our OSU or OU-Tulsa) but is its own independent university that also functions as the urban satellite campus for the flagship university in Lincoln (about the distance from Omaha as Stillwater is to Tulsa).  Except that UNO has 15k students in a variety of undergrad and graduate programs, some of which are exclusive to the Omaha campus and others offered at both campuses.  Why can Nebraska figure this out and we can't?  


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Weatherdemon on March 05, 2019, 07:57:00 am
Is there any way for OSU (or OU or both) to absorb TCC, award associate degrees, while ensuring that all (or most) credits are applied towards a bachelors degree if a student so chooses? Maybe TCC as a junior college could be the IUPUI in this scenario with much clearer bachelor paths at OU and OSU Tulsa campuses. It seems that TCC is always raised as a roadblock to a full 4-year public university in Tulsa. Just spitballing here, seems like we always end up in the same place with this discussion.

TCC has OSU sponsored programs that do just that.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 05, 2019, 01:25:30 pm
Honestly this shouldn't be that hard, plenty of cities have a community college system and a public satellite of the state university that co-exist.  I mentioned Omaha because it is a similarly sized city and one of our peer cities.  They have Metropolitan Community College which like TCC awards associates degrees and has multiple campuses.  They also have a University of Nebraska-Omaha (similar to our OSU or OU-Tulsa) but is its own independent university that also functions as the urban satellite campus for the flagship university in Lincoln (about the distance from Omaha as Stillwater is to Tulsa).  Except that UNO has 15k students in a variety of undergrad and graduate programs, some of which are exclusive to the Omaha campus and others offered at both campuses.  

Why can Nebraska figure this out and we can't?  

Probably simplicity and population concentration. Nebraska has 1 very large city and other large city pretty close by, while Oklahoma has 2 very large metros in different parts of the state which spreads out resources. I'm guessing citizens of Nebraska demanded a public university in the largest city in the state. OSU is just close enough to Tulsa to say its the equivalent of OU to OKC and Tulsa is serviced by a number of public universities as it stands (and has been serviced by TCC, TU and ORU for a long time). I don't think another 4-year university is very high up the list of wants for most Tulsans.

On this board, we likely all agree we need 4-year options for OU and OSU in Tulsa, but it isn't exactly a must-have and certainly isn't a priority for state leaders. They certainly don't want to increase education spending or spend a lot to create more competition for OU/OSU.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on March 05, 2019, 02:25:30 pm
Probably simplicity and population concentration. Nebraska has 1 very large city and other large city pretty close by, while Oklahoma has 2 very large metros in different parts of the state which spreads out resources. I'm guessing citizens of Nebraska demanded a public university in the largest city in the state. OSU is just close enough to Tulsa to say its the equivalent of OU to OKC and Tulsa is serviced by a number of public universities as it stands (and has been serviced by TCC, TU and ORU for a long time). I don't think another 4-year university is very high up the list of wants for most Tulsans.

On this board, we likely all agree we need 4-year options for OU and OSU in Tulsa, but it isn't exactly a must-have and certainly isn't a priority for state leaders. They certainly don't want to increase education spending or spend a lot to create more competition for OU/OSU.

I think both OU and OSU would benefit from having a greater presence and more offerings in Tulsa, if some of the aforementioned barriers are removed.  10k students at each one should be attainable goal with OSU focusing more on science/technology/engineering and OU focusing more on arts and sciences/health sciences with its combined medical program with TU (OU-TU School of Community Medicine). 

If TU could get up to 6k along the 4k at ORU and 20k at TCC plus another 20k at OU and OSU, then you are talking about 50k college students in Tulsa (not including RSU in Claremore and NSU in Broken Arrow).


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TheArtist on March 05, 2019, 06:17:31 pm
I think both OU and OSU would benefit from having a greater presence and more offerings in Tulsa, if some of the aforementioned barriers are removed.  10k students at each one should be attainable goal with OSU focusing more on science/technology/engineering and OU focusing more on arts and sciences/health sciences with its combined medical program with TU (OU-TU School of Community Medicine). 

If TU could get up to 6k along the 4k at ORU and 20k at TCC plus another 20k at OU and OSU, then you are talking about 50k college students in Tulsa (not including RSU in Claremore and NSU in Broken Arrow).

Will be interesting to see how ORU evolves over time.  Many of the greatest universities in the world started out as religious based, but over the generations evolved to become more "secular". 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: DowntownDan on March 07, 2019, 09:27:41 am
TCC has OSU sponsored programs that do just that.

My understanding is that it is very complicated. I've heard stories of kids being told the class will transfer to find out that it doesn't. I'm talking true synergy which may only be possible if TCC is an actual part of or branch of OU, OSU, or both.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 07, 2019, 12:33:19 pm
My understanding is that it is very complicated. I've heard stories of kids being told the class will transfer to find out that it doesn't. I'm talking true synergy which may only be possible if TCC is an actual part of or branch of OU, OSU, or both.

There will always be a big need for TCC how it currently is. It is extremely cheap and extremely easy. It's a great place to learn how to study for college and figure out first hand if college is for you. For those on the edge or those looking to save a lot of cash, you can get momentum at TCC then transfer to a real university. At the same time, some classes don't prepare you well at all for university so there's a risk too (for example, all the math courses I took at TCC were borderline worthless for preparing for science disciplines at TU even though some transferred).

Some classes will not transfer, but that can be determined ahead of time and there's always a risk you'll take some classes that won't but you're still better off having gained that knowledge and experience to help with the expensive courses at a 4-year university. I hope TCC basically stays as-is. I remember they had charts for which classes transfer to which universities. Just sticking to ones that work for all 3 keeps your options open. Some classes are fun/interesting and worth it regardless of whether they transfer.

Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here. Without a comprehensive residential 4-year university experience, it'll be like commuter campuses and won't have the campus lifestyle advantage that Norman and Stillwater can offer. OSU Tulsa needs to go all in to offer that and utilize the amazing real estate it has right by the Arts District.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Dspike on March 07, 2019, 01:14:08 pm
Quote
Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here.

They don't even get to contemplate competing because the legislature gave TCC a monopoly on first and second year courses. OU and OSU cannot offer them, full stop. And I remain at a loss to understand the public interest behind limiting competition in first and second year university courses in Tulsa County.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 15, 2019, 08:53:10 pm
They don't even get to contemplate competing because the legislature gave TCC a monopoly on first and second year courses. OU and OSU cannot offer them, full stop. And I remain at a loss to understand the public interest behind limiting competition in first and second year university courses in Tulsa County.


Public interest has nothing to do with it.



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 15, 2019, 09:05:11 pm
There will always be a big need for TCC how it currently is. It is extremely cheap and extremely easy. It's a great place to learn how to study for college and figure out first hand if college is for you. For those on the edge or those looking to save a lot of cash, you can get momentum at TCC then transfer to a real university. At the same time, some classes don't prepare you well at all for university so there's a risk too (for example, all the math courses I took at TCC were borderline worthless for preparing for science disciplines at TU even though some transferred).

Some classes will not transfer, but that can be determined ahead of time and there's always a risk you'll take some classes that won't but you're still better off having gained that knowledge and experience to help with the expensive courses at a 4-year university. I hope TCC basically stays as-is. I remember they had charts for which classes transfer to which universities. Just sticking to ones that work for all 3 keeps your options open. Some classes are fun/interesting and worth it regardless of whether they transfer.

Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here. Without a comprehensive residential 4-year university experience, it'll be like commuter campuses and won't have the campus lifestyle advantage that Norman and Stillwater can offer. OSU Tulsa needs to go all in to offer that and utilize the amazing real estate it has right by the Arts District.


Don't know how it is now - been a long time since I went there - but I got along ok with an electronics associates at about 3.1 gpa.  Walked into OSU (late 70's) in EE and got 4.0 the first semester.  Granted, it was only 17 hours with 2 labs and commuting every class day from Tulsa to Stillwater, but still, did ok.  Was kinda surprised how easy Differential Equations was there compared to Calculus here.  Had a professor (Dr. Rup Kaul) at TJC who REALLY taught Calculus...it wasn't the easy ride one might expect of Calc II.   There was another instructor there named Larry something (?) who was a very good teacher, too!  Can't remember his name...  Finished up in 1.5 years at about 3.85.  Not the greatest, but was also working part time to support family.

Several classes would not transfer, so did about 12 hours of "catchup" work at TU that did transfer so could go there and get it done in one pass.  Worked out good.  Then got to come back to TU for grad school - and everyone knows how much easier that is than undergrad!   Just keep the advisor happy and it is smooth sailing!!   Why not go to TU for BS?  Well, it was expensive then, too, plus I knew I wanted to do grad work there, so didn't want two sequential degrees from same school.





Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 16, 2019, 11:37:51 am

Don't know how it is now - been a long time since I went there - but I got along ok with an electronics associates at about 3.1 gpa.  Walked into OSU (late 70's) in EE and got 4.0 the first semester.  Granted, it was only 17 hours with 2 labs and commuting every class day from Tulsa to Stillwater, but still, did ok.  Was kinda surprised how easy Differential Equations was there compared to Calculus here.  Had a professor (Dr. Rup Kaul) at TJC who REALLY taught Calculus...it wasn't the easy ride one might expect of Calc II.   There was another instructor there named Larry something (?) who was a very good teacher, too!  Can't remember his name...  Finished up in 1.5 years at about 3.85.  Not the greatest, but was also working part time to support family.

Several classes would not transfer, so did about 12 hours of "catchup" work at TU that did transfer so could go there and get it done in one pass.  Worked out good.  Then got to come back to TU for grad school - and everyone knows how much easier that is than undergrad!   Just keep the advisor happy and it is smooth sailing!!   Why not go to TU for BS?  Well, it was expensive then, too, plus I knew I wanted to do grad work there, so didn't want two sequential degrees from same school.



I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: Jacobei on April 16, 2019, 12:28:50 pm
I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.

I had an opposite experience.  After leaving TCC I walked into a junior level accounting course where they hadn't even covered the accounting cycle yet.  The languages courses were behind where I was.   Different than Calc, I know, but a very different experience comparing the two schools.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 18, 2019, 08:42:25 pm
I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.


I also took Calc II at TU - one of my 'makeup' courses before grad school - about 9 yrs after first time.  Worked out well, cause I had forgotten some of the stuff I really needed later.  TU was rigorous, but was definitely 'review' due to the instructors I had before.  Others seemed to have quite a bit more trouble.   I downloaded the MIT Calc class videos last year and have been slowly going through them as refresher for some modeling I am trying to do.  Even after all this time, I still have "ah-ha" moments of enlightenment because it is coming back a lot easier than it was to learn the first time!  Maybe I don't have Alzheimer's after all - the short term memory seems to actually be working along with long term...  mostly!



 


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 23, 2019, 12:23:18 pm
I had an opposite experience.  After leaving TCC I walked into a junior level accounting course where they hadn't even covered the accounting cycle yet.  The languages courses were behind where I was.   Different than Calc, I know, but a very different experience comparing the two schools.


I took at least 6 classes at TCC including economics and they were all so elementary compared to anything at TU. The entire classwork took so little time and effort to make As on. At TU, even the easiest fluff classes took some work like Political Science or Engineering Economics (those were probably the 2 easiest classes I took at TU, but still required quite a bit of studying, homework and some effort to get an A).


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on April 23, 2019, 01:34:40 pm
And on the other end of the spectrum my daughter went to TU for one semester and had a hard time getting her college to accept the hours. And they didn’t accept all of them.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 23, 2019, 03:46:09 pm
And on the other end of the spectrum my daughter went to TU for one semester and had a hard time getting her college to accept the hours. And they didn’t accept all of them.

That has nothing to do with how "difficult" or useful a university course is. Many colleges don't accept certain credits because they want to encourage students to take more of their own classes and discourage taking classes elsewhere.

But this is you we're talking about so you probably either misquoted her or just didn't understand the nuances of it.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: swake on April 23, 2019, 09:37:43 pm
That has nothing to do with how "difficult" or useful a university course is. Many colleges don't accept certain credits because they want to encourage students to take more of their own classes and discourage taking classes elsewhere.

But this is you we're talking about so you probably either misquoted her or just didn't understand the nuances of it.

No, it was about the education you get at TU, the college she's graduating from next month didn't respect the educational rigor at TU.

You were denigrating the education some get at TCC, but that's a slippery slope, because there are other schools that consider TU to be not that great either.


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2019, 08:19:39 pm
There is an 'ebb and flow' to educational "greatness" at even the so-called "best" of schools.  TU, TCC, OU (especially!), and OSU have all had their moments.  Back in the 80's, there was a virtual 'exodus' of an alarming number of Electrical/Electronics instructors and professors from TU going to OSU.  It hurt TU a lot...for many years!   To this day, I suspect that is at least part of the reason they have not moved forward on trying to set up a PhD program in Electrical Engineering - something that has been "worked on" since at least 1968 to my direct knowledge.


Comparison moment - I have gone back recently to "review" Calculus thru Diff Eq. to see if I can still "learn" and as a refresher for some system modeling I want to pursue.  A long term project.  Found MIT online courses and downloaded the videos and have slowly been going through them.  What I have noted in particular is that MIT is no "better" - despite their reputation - then what I have taken at TJC, and TU.  And in some ways, not as good - note the large audience in the videos.  Not much "one on one" assistance going on there.


Anyone can have access to these courses and one can even get a 'certificate' by successfully completing some set of actions that I have not investigated 'cause I don't care about that.   But if one is motivated by prestigious trappings and symbols of power and elitism, you can say you got some MIT learning and have a piece of paper to back it up!!   I just wanna be able to design some PID loops using S transforms again...

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/



Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on July 23, 2019, 10:05:19 pm
OSU needs to look at what Colorado State University is doing with their planned urban campus north of downtown Denver.  CSU is very similar to OSU in a lot of ways but sees the value of building an urban campus and research center. 

Quote
As part of the National Western Center – a redevelopment project in north Denver on the grounds of the historic National Western Stock Show – the CSU System will construct three buildings at a main crossroads in Denver.

Quote
“The global education leadership goal of the National Western Center is a powerful one, particularly given the center’s focus on food, water, and health,” said Becky Takeda-Tinker, president of CSU Global. “CSU Global looks forward to contributing its expertise in asynchronous online education delivery, allowing the impact of the center to have a continual and expanded reach with stakeholders around the world.”

Quote
Bringing university research and work to life for the community is a core tenet of the new Denver presence.

https://source.colostate.edu/csu-system-to-break-ground-on-planned-urban-campus-in-2020/ (https://source.colostate.edu/csu-system-to-break-ground-on-planned-urban-campus-in-2020/)


Title: Re: UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244
Post by: SXSW on December 02, 2019, 09:42:45 pm
The latest, the city is seeking developer(s) for the empty lots west of MLK. 

https://www.newson6.com/clip/14959283/tulsa-seeks-plan-for-property-near-downtown?fbclid=IwAR1YRx3YADEiI10tfxXxDiorf3XZIMqfaSheXIr5BKRmR4A0BMYxtSP02xY (https://www.newson6.com/clip/14959283/tulsa-seeks-plan-for-property-near-downtown?fbclid=IwAR1YRx3YADEiI10tfxXxDiorf3XZIMqfaSheXIr5BKRmR4A0BMYxtSP02xY)

My dream for this area is for it to be rebuilt with a mix of single-family and urban rowhomes on the old lots north of John Hope Franklin Blvd and south of Emerson Montessori.  And higher density apartments/condos on the lots south of John Hope Franklin to I-244.  I suspect these would be very desirable as you would literally be right next to downtown and walking distance to Emerson which by TPS standards is a pretty decent elementary school.  This area also sits up higher so you would have amazing skyline views from your upstairs windows.