The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: carltonplace on August 30, 2017, 09:51:18 am



Title: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: carltonplace on August 30, 2017, 09:51:18 am
Normally sub shops take over abandoned QuickTrip stores but in an odd reversal it looks like the Bill and Ruth's at 15th St will be demolished to make way for a new Quick Trip store.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: DowntownDan on August 30, 2017, 10:24:18 am
This is entirely inconsistent with a plan by city engineers to rebuild 15th from Denver to Harvard to improve walkability and install bike lanes.  They want to tear down a half dozen buildings to install this oversized out-of-place suburban style gas station.  It looks like the zoning is already in place so neither the planning commission nor city hall will be able to provide input.  It'll be up to QT to be good corporate citizens to either change the location or try a smaller footprint or urban format, and we all saw how well they took that advice at 11th and Utica.  Just a bad deal all around in my opinion.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Dqzlhdnu6jV3hJMDJDLU56ZWc/view?usp=sharing


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Conan71 on August 30, 2017, 10:35:14 am
This is entirely inconsistent with a plan by city engineers to rebuild 15th from Denver to Harvard to improve walkability and install bike lanes.  They want to tear down a half dozen buildings to install this oversized out-of-place suburban style gas station.  It looks like the zoning is already in place so neither the planning commission nor city hall will be able to provide input.  It'll be up to QT to be good corporate citizens to either change the location or try a smaller footprint or urban format, and we all saw how well they took that advice at 11th and Utica.  Just a bad deal all around in my opinion.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Dqzlhdnu6jV3hJMDJDLU56ZWc/view?usp=sharing

Nice!  Another pretty thing taxpayers funded with no teeth and little chance of being implemented. 

Is there really not a way the city can jump in due to the increased traffic count at this intersection?

The pisser in all this is it was a much more pedestrian design 30 years ago when the Delman Center was still there.  Even the Safeway was built up to the curb on Lewis.  IIRC, there was a pocket neighborhood where Reasor's is now which was built up to 15th St. With a restaurant on that corner.  I guess it is hard to claim QT is incongruous to the intersection when you have three good size commercial properties on the other three corners.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on August 30, 2017, 10:35:55 am
Normally sub shops take over abandoned QuickTrip stores but in an odd reversal it looks like the Bill and Ruth's at 15th St will be demolished to make way for a new Quick Trip store.

Circle of life.  
This was originally QT #15... currently a sub shop...   being reclaimed by a yuge QT.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: DTowner on August 30, 2017, 12:57:20 pm
QT simply does not care about any plans or goals or hopes anyone has to make any part of Tulsa more dense or walkable.  QT has zero interest in thinking creatively to make a store blend into an existing neighborhood, rather than clearing houses and buildings to make way for it.  QT only wants to plop down its predesigned next generation suburban model anywhere and everywhere it operates.  It’s a for-profit company and it has that right.  The fact that Tulsa is too timid or cowardly to say “no” to this approach in a few select locations in mid-town is on us and our leaders.

Yes, much damage has already been done at 15th & Lewis so it is not worth falling on your sword now.  But then, neither was 21st & Harvard.  Or 36th & Peoria.  Or 11th & Utica.  Communities are rarely destroyed in large sweeping events, but in small diminishments repeated time and time again until nothing is left worth saving.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: RecycleMichael on August 30, 2017, 01:11:40 pm
I believe a QT will be very successful there.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: carltonplace on August 30, 2017, 01:22:13 pm
Reasor's had a gas station across the street that they demolished in favor of parking. Wonder what information QT has that this is a good spot. They already have 5 giant QT stores all within 1.5 miles
15th and Denver 1.5 miles
11th and Utica <1 mile
21st and Harvard 1.5 miles
11th and College <1 mile
Admiral and Delaware 1.5 miles


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Oil Capital on August 30, 2017, 01:52:50 pm
QT simply does not care about any plans or goals or hopes anyone has to make any part of Tulsa more dense or walkable.  QT has zero interest in thinking creatively to make a store blend into an existing neighborhood, rather than clearing houses and buildings to make way for it.  QT only wants to plop down its predesigned next generation suburban model anywhere and everywhere it operates.  It’s a for-profit company and it has that right.  The fact that Tulsa is too timid or cowardly to say “no” to this approach in a few select locations in mid-town is on us and our leaders.

Sad to say, in this case, "clearing houses and buildings to make way for it" will allow this this store to blend into the existing neighborhood.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 30, 2017, 01:59:05 pm
QT has zero interest in thinking creatively to make a store blend into an existing neighborhood, rather than clearing houses and buildings to make way for it.  QT only wants to plop down its predesigned next generation suburban model anywhere and everywhere it operates.

A couple of years ago I lobbied an acquaintance of mine who works at QT on this point. He totally got what I was saying, seemed to agree with this group's views, and said that they were working on an urban model. Take that for whatever it's worth.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: DTowner on August 30, 2017, 02:25:20 pm
I believe a QT will be very successful there.

I have no doubt it will be successful.  Of course, those who tore down old empty buildings downtown to build surface parking made more money than if they'd sat on those empty buildings for 30+ years waiting for downtown's revival. 


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: SXSW on August 30, 2017, 03:03:02 pm
A couple of years ago I lobbied an acquaintance of mine who works at QT on this point. He totally got what I was saying, seemed to agree with this group's views, and said that they were working on an urban model. Take that for whatever it's worth.

I nominate the 36th & Peoria location for the first trial version of the "urban model".


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Oil Capital on August 30, 2017, 03:29:31 pm
I nominate the 36th & Peoria location for the first trial version of the "urban model".

That would make a lot more sense than 15th & Lewis.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: patric on August 30, 2017, 05:59:30 pm
Probably need to paste the previous thread on this from here: 
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=17044.msg319572#msg319572



QT spokesman Mike Thornbrugh said the plan is to also purchase the Duffy’s restaurant property next door and then build a QuikTrip Generation 3 store.

Thats their biggest store design.  It does seem a bit out of scale for that location.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on August 30, 2017, 06:05:59 pm
...Generation 3 store.

Thats their biggest store design.

That's their only store design.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: swake on August 30, 2017, 08:20:12 pm
That's their only store design.

That style store could be pushed to the sidewalk with half the number of pumps and fewer parking spaces on a much smaller footprint and be a plus to an urban area.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: sgrizzle on August 30, 2017, 10:52:07 pm
The pumps are on 15th, the store is on Lewis.

And Reasor's tore down the gas station because they suck at it. They didn't build it in the first place.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Conan71 on August 30, 2017, 11:07:56 pm
That style store could be pushed to the sidewalk with half the number of pumps and fewer parking spaces on a much smaller footprint and be a plus to an urban area.

If you could sell that to QT management, I’m sure there would be a long line of people waiting to give you a big sloppy kiss.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: DowntownDan on August 31, 2017, 07:23:52 am
The pumps are on 15th, the store is on Lewis.

And Reasor's tore down the gas station because they suck at it. They didn't build it in the first place.

Considering their business relationship, it would have made sense for QT to simply take over Lil Reasors.  It was an appropriate size for a midtown gas station and the alternative was unused pavement, as it is now.  But QT has apparently decided they can't make money with fewer than 24 pumps and 6000 sq. ft.  It's just insane to me.  They probably also knew they were going to take over the entire corner across the street eventually.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Hoss on August 31, 2017, 07:55:28 am
If you could sell that to QT management, I’m sure there would be a long line of people waiting to give you a big sloppy kiss.

Ew.   8)


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on August 31, 2017, 09:19:29 am
Lil Reasors was an appropriate size for a midtown gas station

QT sees themselves as more of a convenience store / fast-food establishment..
Which makes the huge pump requirement a bit more baffling


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: DTowner on August 31, 2017, 11:18:11 am
It was always my understanding QT uses petro as a low margin item to drive foot traffic to sell the high margin food & beverages.

QT would build a giant suburban Gen 3 store on Guthrie Green if they could buy the land and thought it would be a profitable location.  QT will modify its template suburban store design only if and when a city makes them do so.  Tulsa has not and appears unwilling/unable to offer any resistance to QT anywhere in Tulsa.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2017, 12:12:12 pm
It was always my understanding QT uses petro as a low margin item to drive foot traffic to sell the high margin food & beverages.

QT would build a giant suburban Gen 3 store on Guthrie Green if they could buy the land and thought it would be a profitable location.  QT will modify its template suburban store design only if and when a city makes them do so.  Tulsa has not and appears unwilling/unable to offer any resistance to QT anywhere in Tulsa.


Yeah, they have no interest in doing something like that unless the market absolutely demands it. In Atlanta, they had to make an urban version to get in to the trendy Midtown neighborhood: https://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/6/23/12010170/qt-quiktrip-peachtree-street-6th-midtown-atlanta (https://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/6/23/12010170/qt-quiktrip-peachtree-street-6th-midtown-atlanta)

If Tulsa had standards like that to drive (limit) development standards, maybe QT would build there. I don't foresee that happening any time soon. We don't really have the ultra-high end walkable neighborhoods here where this would make sense. Maybe eventually if downtown increases its population by about 3,000, then it could have the kind of density that would warrant a QT urban store.

Who knows if this concept even worked well for QT. It probably did, but their margins are probably so high at other stores that there are probably plenty of lower hanging fruit out there where they can expand their market share without the sky high rent/real estate.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Red Arrow on August 31, 2017, 04:18:26 pm
QT sees themselves as more of a convenience store / fast-food establishment..
Which makes the huge pump requirement a bit more baffling

Being able to pull off a street i am already traveling on to buy gas is pretty convenient.



Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Conan71 on August 31, 2017, 07:50:35 pm
It was always my understanding QT uses petro as a low margin item to drive foot traffic to sell the high margin food & beverages.


This is their stated objective but I find it hard to believe when there have been times gas was selling for .20 cheaper in OKC with higher transportation costs (there is no refinery in the OKC metro I am aware of these days).  With the way QT plays their price changes, it is clear they are concerned with making a profit off of it.  I have no clue how many times the prices have changed since I moved away in mid March, but the price at our two stations here in Cimarron have remained the same on all grades for over five months.  Even with Harvey this past week, they remain the same.  


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Red Arrow on August 31, 2017, 08:52:51 pm
I have no clue how many times the prices have changed since I moved away in mid March, but the price at our two stations here in Cimarron have remained the same on all grades for over five months.  Even with Harvey this past week, they remain the same.  

The usual gas price game goes on.  Checking gasbuddy shows your price for regular in Cimarron at $2.49/gal for regular.  We recently had two price increases from $2.05 to $2.19 and then to $2.39 per gallon of regular.



Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: patric on August 31, 2017, 09:10:18 pm
The usual gas price game goes on.  Checking gasbuddy shows your price for regular in Cimarron at $2.49/gal for regular.  We recently had two price increases from $2.05 to $2.19 and then to $2.39 per gallon of regular.

They raised it from $1.93 the minute they heard their might be a hurricane.  Pre-gouging?

FWIW, a 15th & Lewis store might actually be a good thing if it werent a mega-store. 


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Red Arrow on August 31, 2017, 09:43:55 pm
They raised it from $1.93 the minute they heard their might be a hurricane.  Pre-gouging?

I forgot the timing on that increase.

Costco was still $1.99 this afternoon.  (Thur 31 Aug)


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: sgrizzle on September 04, 2017, 09:29:19 pm
I paid almost $3/gal today in texas with a $25 per vehicle cap. It took a few stops as I drove like 700 miles today.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: TeeDub on September 05, 2017, 01:04:17 pm
I paid almost $3/gal today in texas with a $25 per vehicle cap. It took a few stops as I drove like 700 miles today.

At least you could find gas.  We were in Dallas over the weekend and maybe 10% of the gas stations even had gas.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: joiei on September 05, 2017, 02:16:00 pm
At least you could find gas.  We were in Dallas over the weekend and maybe 10% of the gas stations even had gas.
I was in Bedford and had NO trouble finding gas.  All I needed.  And I paid $2.39, same as I paid here in Tulsa before i left.  Of course I saw the QT stations that had gas for $2.75 but didn't stop there.   


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: Oil Capital on September 05, 2017, 02:21:07 pm
That style store could be pushed to the sidewalk with half the number of pumps and fewer parking spaces on a much smaller footprint and be a plus to an urban area.

It could indeed, but that's pretty irrelevant to a discussion of the 15th & Lewis area.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on September 05, 2017, 03:34:19 pm
It could indeed, but that's pretty irrelevant to a discussion of the 15th & Lewis area.

Let's just agree that redevelopment/infill should create more density, not less.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: sgrizzle on September 05, 2017, 07:05:35 pm
Let's just agree that redevelopment/infill should create more density, not less.

Some people are more dense


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: patric on September 05, 2017, 08:08:10 pm
Some people are more dense

One of the discussions on Nextdoor.com opined that having a 15th-and-Denver-sized store would be good for neighborhood crime because they always saw police there.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: sgrizzle on September 05, 2017, 09:01:22 pm
One of the discussions on Nextdoor.com opined that having a 15th-and-Denver-sized store would be good for neighborhood crime because they always saw police there.

That site mostly makes me angry


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on September 06, 2017, 07:23:58 am
One of the discussions on Nextdoor.com opined that having a 15th-and-Denver-sized store would be good for neighborhood crime because they always saw police there.

Does that logic also apply to the Admiral & Memorial Wal-Mart?


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: patric on September 06, 2017, 09:43:27 am
Does that logic also apply to the Admiral & Memorial Wal-Mart?

Was that the one with the shooting last night?  Who knows.  Maybe the poster just thought they hang around for free coffee.

CORRECTION:  not Wal-Mart  http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/woman-shot-in-leg-in-east-tulsa-police-searching-for-suspect


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: BKDotCom on September 06, 2017, 12:42:22 pm
Was that the one with the shooting last night?  Who knows.  Maybe the poster just thought they hang around for free coffee.

dunno... constant police presence...   Drain on the police force.    Supposedly the highest loss Wal-Mart of them all.  Due to all the theft....   Was closed for several months due to "plumbing issues"


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: dsjeffries on September 06, 2017, 01:54:03 pm
That style store could be pushed to the sidewalk with half the number of pumps and fewer parking spaces on a much smaller footprint and be a plus to an urban area.

This QT in Fort Worth is placed at the corner, with the pumps in the back. It's not perfect (there's no entrance facing the sidewalk, and it's obviously the back side) but it's a lot better than what they do to our street corners here.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4347/36674476840_04985fe110_c.jpg)
1101 Hemphill

And this is the famous gasless, urban QT on Peachtree in Atlanta. It has parking behind the building, meets the sidewalk, includes plenty of transparency (windows), etc.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/P_fbXpohQtHuiAC6PTie18zy2Jg=/0x403:3264x2224/1200x800/filters:focal(1371x963:1893x1485)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/49932869/WP_20160623_002.0.jpg)

They also have better landscaping in cities that require it.


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: commonsense on September 06, 2017, 02:47:39 pm
We need to figure out what to do with our growing collection of dead or abandoned QuikTrips scattered throughout the city, each of which has deed restrictions preventing other fuel sales. The new one at 15th & Lewis will be there only 20 years or so before they decide to abandon it for the southwest corner.

From Tulsa World (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/old-quiktrip-sites-create-real-estate-opportunity-for-businesses/article_82e98eee-0711-5727-84fd-fdfc40877c41.html"), May 11, 2014:
Quote
Unsentimental
On its way to building a growing national chain of 696 stores, the Tulsa convenience store company has closed more locations than it has opened.

“There are a lot of reasons we move, and it’s not always because the store isn’t making money,” QuikTrip spokesman Mike Thornbrugh said. “Traffic patterns change, sometimes we need more land, or maybe a store just isn’t living up to our expectations.”

In Tulsa alone the company has built 217 stores since the first “QuickTrip” opened in 1958. Today the company has just 70 stores, and QuikTrip has moved and closed stores as metrics and demographics change.

You don’t last very long if you are sentimental in this business,” Thornbrugh said. “We want the best locations.”[/b]

...

Some stretches of road in Tulsa have two or three former QuikTrip locations. QT has occupied three corners of 51st Street and Union Avenue during its history, and the new store at Interstate 44 and Peoria Avenue is catty-corner from the location of the very first QuikTrip store opened by Chester Cadieux in 1953.


They build for expediency, for quick profits, then dump their locations when another corner at the same intersection opens up, complete with deed restrictions and boarded up windows, neighborhood be damned. County property taxes be damned. Competition be damned.

They are not the kindly, thoughtful, generous company they try to make themselves out to be. "Hey, don't think about us bullying your neighborhood and trying to skirt the City's rules on lighting, landscaping, or fencing - we just gave $3 million to a park! We're awesome!"

They exist for one reason: to sell candy, cigarettes, and gasoline; and they don't care what effects they have on anyone else around them.

It's easy to outsell the competition when you own almost every corner in town.

Has anyone tried to map all their abandoned stores?


Title: Re: NEW QT - 15th and Lewis
Post by: patric on September 06, 2017, 09:39:39 pm
This QT in Fort Worth is placed at the corner, with the pumps in the back. It's not perfect (there's no entrance facing the sidewalk, and it's obviously the back side) but it's a lot better than what they do to our street corners here.

Its pretty much a dressed-up back wall
https://goo.gl/maps/ZdH4CL5ATJ92
but the Atlanta example would be promising if selling gas to Broken Arrow Expressway traffic weren't the primary goal here.