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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2017, 03:36:32 pm



Title: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2017, 03:36:32 pm
Here is a story from May 2016 where residents were concerned a property facing two residential streets was going to become a smoke shop. The property is residential but backs to Yale:
http://www.newson6.com/story/31961769/residents-hope-to-stop-possibility-of-smoke-shop-coming-to-tulsa-neighborhood

The owner apparently requested and got two curb cuts for "the duplex he was building" but a curb cut on Yale which was denied. The owner then put it in a Native American trust, and tried to run a fireworks stand on it around New Years. While technically he was legally allowed to sell there, transporting in the city is illegal so the city offered to confiscate from, and ticket, everyone who shopped there.

This seems like an abuse of tribal property benefits, getting to put commercial in residential like that. Anyone else more well versed in these issues?


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: Breadburner on August 21, 2017, 05:24:42 pm
Since when is that "Tribal Land"....???


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2017, 08:28:16 pm
Since when is that "Tribal Land"....???

Since he filled out a form and it got approved. I think they did the house next door too.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: DowntownDan on August 22, 2017, 07:36:16 am
If property records show its owned by "Wolf Voice Enterprises," then it's not "Indian trust land."  Indian trust land means the land is owned by the United States in trust for an Indian tribe, and there's a lot more to it than paperwork.  There may be a number of other Indian laws in effect concerning Indian ownership in the company or trust that owns the land, but it's not likely tied directly to the land.  Considering the story is a year old, is there really nothing more recent on the situation?


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 22, 2017, 09:23:23 am
Bonus golden comment string:

Quote
You know believe it or not there was a time when you bought land then it was yours. If you wanted to build an outhouse on it then it was not no ones business.

Today you buy land and you have to make everyone else happy. Broken Arrow missed a major encomic boost with the casino, Tulsa missed an economic boost with the Turkey mountain project and now a boost to a local area is going to be missed because of a few people. Sure a smoke shop isnt a million dollar business but if the 1.50 a pack tax goes into effect then tribal smoke shops are going to see a major increase in business and it could boost this areas bottom line.


Quote
Greg Hill
Since you don't mind, why not put the smoke shop next to your house? It'll be great. Cars and trucks, night and day. Then your property will be worth so much more!


Quote
Kirby Ellis
Greg Robert Hill if that is their choice then do it again their land their right.

YEAH! ITS THEE-IR RIGHT!!! Lets go ahead and add industrial plants right in our neighborhoods and a tire shop right there too because it's cheaper than on the main roads.

Tulsa's already laissez faire zoning/building codes/overlays have been so lenient, it has allowed the mostly-ugly sprawl we are gifted with today (Ugly neighborhoods all over Tulsa and suburbs with poorly-designed dated houses that are aging badly and roads doing the same). It is frustrating that people think if you let people do whatever they want with their property, then that is fine. That is "freedom". Maybe Tulsa is too strict in some ways (making urban development more difficult than it should be), but they need to figure out some way to prevent what this guy did: buying a residential property with the sole intent of commercializing it outside of code.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: Hoss on August 22, 2017, 10:52:24 am
Bonus golden comment string:

YEAH! ITS THEE-IR RIGHT!!! Lets go ahead and add industrial plants right in our neighborhoods and a tire shop right there too because it's cheaper than on the main roads.

Tulsa's already laissez faire zoning/building codes/overlays have been so lenient, it has allowed the mostly-ugly sprawl we are gifted with today (Ugly neighborhoods all over Tulsa and suburbs with poorly-designed dated houses that are aging badly and roads doing the same). It is frustrating that people think if you let people do whatever they want with their property, then that is fine. That is "freedom". Maybe Tulsa is too strict in some ways (making urban development more difficult than it should be), but they need to figure out some way to prevent what this guy did: buying a residential property with the sole intent of commercializing it outside of code.

Ha!  You wan't "laissez faire" zoning?  I lived in Houston in the early 90s.  They had nearly zero zoning laws.  I lived in a neighborhood where a high rise (60 floors) towered over a residential neighborhood within 2 blocks.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 22, 2017, 12:03:32 pm
Ha!  You wan't "laissez faire" zoning?  I lived in Houston in the early 90s.  They had nearly zero zoning laws.  I lived in a neighborhood where a high rise (60 floors) towered over a residential neighborhood within 2 blocks.

Having no zoning laws in Houston is a great talking point, but almost irrelevant.  It is technically true and has resulted in some weird things, but they have a lot of "regulations" that would normally be part of the zoning code.  Coupled with deed restrictions, buffers, tax increment zones, and other regulations and it starts looking a lot like zoning.  Failing that, the zoning is enforced by He Who Has More Money to Hire Attorneys.  If I don't want your new building, I can call it a nuisance, claim it reduces my value, or come up with some other reason and sue.  A developer has been trying to put a high rise in near Rice University for a decade... as far as I can tell there is no zoning issue that should stop it, but it also still hasn't been built.

http://www.chron.com/business/real-estate/article/Permit-issued-for-1717-Bissonnet-Ashby-high-rise-9208685.php
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/columnists/sarnoff/article/Court-reverses-Ashby-high-rise-ruling-in-favor-of-8337576.php
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/real-estate/looped-in/article/Developers-of-so-called-Ashby-high-rise-talk-10-8392350.php

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2011/11/30/the_myth_of_zoning_free_houston.html
https://urbanedge.blogs.rice.edu/2015/09/08/forget-what-youve-heard-houston-really-does-have-zoning-sort-of/#.WZxvMyiGNaQ

Also, strange how a city without zoning doesn't look that different than every other big city in Texas. 


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: patric on August 22, 2017, 01:17:16 pm
Since when is that "Tribal Land"....???

You might be amazed at what is called Tribal Land.


Tulsa Police Officer Shannon Kepler has asked a judge to dismiss his 3-year-old murder case because he says it occurred on land governed by the Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/shannon-kepler-cites-creek-nation-citizenship-indian-country-ruling-in/article_259a83c2-597e-53d7-818e-49e35e5de237.html


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: swake on August 22, 2017, 03:58:38 pm
You might be amazed at what is called Tribal Land.


Tulsa Police Officer Shannon Kepler has asked a judge to dismiss his 3-year-old murder case because he says it occurred on land governed by the Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/shannon-kepler-cites-creek-nation-citizenship-indian-country-ruling-in/article_259a83c2-597e-53d7-818e-49e35e5de237.html


It depends on what you mean by Tribal Land. Almost all land in Oklahoma can be considered "Tribal Land":

Land within a tribe's national boundaries but not owned by any tribe and that isn't reserved or held in trust (this would be most land in Oklahoma)
Trust land within a tribe's boundaries, owned by the tribe or a tribal member
Reserved land within a tribe's boundaries, owned by the tribe or a tribal member
Land owned by a tribe, not trust land or reserved
Land outside any tribes boundaries and not owned by a tribe (this is mostly central Oklahoma only)

I don't ask me the legal difference between Trust Land and Reserved, I get confused, but I can ask if someone really cares.




Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: sgrizzle on August 23, 2017, 08:00:54 pm
If property records show its owned by "Wolf Voice Enterprises," then it's not "Indian trust land."  Indian trust land means the land is owned by the United States in trust for an Indian tribe, and there's a lot more to it than paperwork.  There may be a number of other Indian laws in effect concerning Indian ownership in the company or trust that owns the land, but it's not likely tied directly to the land.  Considering the story is a year old, is there really nothing more recent on the situation?

It could be held for an individual as well. From what I understand, it was owned by that individual, who then got it moved to an individual trust.
https://teeic.indianaffairs.gov/triballand/

The next step is getting a smoke shop license.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: Conan71 on August 23, 2017, 11:46:40 pm
It could be held for an individual as well. From what I understand, it was owned by that individual, who then got it moved to an individual trust.
https://teeic.indianaffairs.gov/triballand/

The next step is getting a smoke shop license.

So if it is ruled to be Native American property right in the middle of the neighborhood, they can open a commercial enterprise in the midst of a city subdivision street?  Since it would necessarily need access from the residential street to itís commercial property, doesnít the COT have some sort of say in this?

Aside from this being really poor neighboring it sets a pretty sobering precedent.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: sgrizzle on August 24, 2017, 04:11:52 pm
So if it is ruled to be Native American property right in the middle of the neighborhood, they can open a commercial enterprise in the midst of a city subdivision street?  Since it would necessarily need access from the residential street to itís commercial property, doesnít the COT have some sort of say in this?

Aside from this being really poor neighboring it sets a pretty sobering precedent.

I was told the City of Tulsa has no real say over the property if it is in a trust. Zoning laws not applicable. I'm guessing some state laws may keep it from becoming a bar, but you could put a smelter there. Maybe a tiny trash to energy plant. City controls utility access, but I'm guessing that holds little threat. There is commercial space across the street in two directions so it's not smack dab in a neighborhood, but pretty close.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1056363,-95.9223981,253m/data=!3m1!1e3


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: Conan71 on August 24, 2017, 10:15:56 pm
Okay so this is the NE corner lot at Winston.  I was picturing this another block or so west of Yale right off 41st.  Itís still a POS, but not as stark with all the other commercial activity in the area.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: Breadburner on August 25, 2017, 06:02:11 am
You might be amazed at what is called Tribal Land.


Tulsa Police Officer Shannon Kepler has asked a judge to dismiss his 3-year-old murder case because he says it occurred on land governed by the Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/shannon-kepler-cites-creek-nation-citizenship-indian-country-ruling-in/article_259a83c2-597e-53d7-818e-49e35e5de237.html


Spam....


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: patric on August 25, 2017, 06:28:22 pm
Spam....

Better to be known as a sinner than a hypocrite.


Title: Re: Residential Smoke Shop
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2017, 11:39:10 am
Having no zoning laws in Houston is a great talking point, but almost irrelevant.  It is technically true and has resulted in some weird things, but they have a lot of "regulations" that would normally be part of the zoning code.  Coupled with deed restrictions, buffers, tax increment zones, and other regulations and it starts looking a lot like zoning.  Failing that, the zoning is enforced by He Who Has More Money to Hire Attorneys.  If I don't want your new building, I can call it a nuisance, claim it reduces my value, or come up with some other reason and sue.  A developer has been trying to put a high rise in near Rice University for a decade... as far as I can tell there is no zoning issue that should stop it, but it also still hasn't been built.

This is a fun tour of some of the oddities that the strange zoning in Houston has helped create:
 http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Weirdest-images-from-Houston-s-lack-of-zoning-laws-9171688.php#photo-10774164 (http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Weirdest-images-from-Houston-s-lack-of-zoning-laws-9171688.php#photo-10774164)

Also, strange how a city without zoning doesn't look that different than every other big city in Texas.  

Do you really think that? I can see how the general sprawl is similar, but it is quite a bit different overall.

Outside of the very affluent/central-west-of-downtown areas (Midtown/Montrose), Houston has terrible walkability for such a large population compared to other big cities in Texas. It is lacking in "enclaves", the great urban mini-town centers that are so common in Austin and decent in Dallas (Knox-Henderson, Bishop Arts District, Oak Lawn, Deep Ellum, South Congress, Cezar Chaves, etc). Houston has some, but not at the level of its peers and the ones it does have are either full of newer developments (which often lack charm) or are just behind in being updated (Like some of the main streets areas Montrose).

Dallas is bad overall too, but it does have those areas which have created some great urban mini-towns and most have tons of older buildings and homes in tact.

San Antonio is a bit lacking in walkability for most of the city also, but has some great districts and tons of older historic buildings whereas Houston demolished most of the older homes. The downtown is pretty great for pedestrians with the River Walk and the Pearl Brewery District is quite an awesome development.

Now these differences are not all just zoning differences, but having factories next to homes can't be great for keeping people in those neighborhoods. It is bizarre how many sky scrapers and tall corporate-looking buildings are right next to neighborhoods of houses. The downtown is pretty much like any other downtown in Texas though in that it has plenty of skyscrapers along with some older quaint areas and a pretty large amount of parking lots.