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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: Markk on August 14, 2017, 06:54:55 pm



Title: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Markk on August 14, 2017, 06:54:55 pm
There is an online poll now to change the name of Lee school.  I went to Lee school, and I always thought it was odd to go to a school named after a military leader from the side that lost the war, but I thought "what the heck".  It didn't inform my politics, and I doubt it does for others.   

Is there an online repository anywhere that provides a background of the people for whom city streets are named?  I think Denver was named after an old general.  What about other streets?  Do any of those namesakes have shady pasts that would cause a re-evaluation of whether the names should remain the same?  I'm fearful this is a slippery slope. 



Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Conan71 on August 14, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
I guess Iíve never understood the mindset of people who look for things to be outraged or upset about especially team names, street names, or school names.

I mentioned this when Tate Bradyís memory was dragged through the gravel a few years back in the re-naming of Brady Street that there were other members of the Klan who were prominent Tulsans at the time and they still have buildings or streets named after them around the city.

We can waste a lot of time and energy re-naming things which remind us of our ignorant or hurtful past or we can see the names and let them remind us of how far we have come as humankind.



Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: swake on August 14, 2017, 08:23:27 pm
There is an online poll now to change the name of Lee school.  I went to Lee school, and I always thought it was odd to go to a school named after a military leader from the side that lost the war, but I thought "what the heck".  It didn't inform my politics, and I doubt it does for others.   

Is there an online repository anywhere that provides a background of the people for whom city streets are named?  I think Denver was named after an old general.  What about other streets?  Do any of those namesakes have shady pasts that would cause a re-evaluation of whether the names should remain the same?  I'm fearful this is a slippery slope. 



Most avenues are named for cites. West of main are named for cites to our west and east of main, well you get the idea. Not named for people at all.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: patric on August 14, 2017, 08:24:06 pm
I guess Iíve never understood the mindset of people who look for things to be outraged or upset about especially team names, street names, or school names.

I mentioned this when Tate Bradyís memory was dragged through the gravel a few years back in the re-naming of Brady Street that there were other members of the Klan who were prominent Tulsans at the time and they still have buildings or streets named after them around the city.

We can waste a lot of time and energy re-naming things which remind us of our ignorant or hurtful past or we can see the names and let them remind us of how far we have come as humankind.


Tecumseh conspired with the British against the American government, Sheridan massacred non-combatant civilians and is synonymous with the "scorched earth" warfare tactic, having a "King" and "Queen" street is just absolutely treasonous, and "Virgin" flat out pornographic.

Offended yet?   ;D


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: erfalf on August 14, 2017, 08:27:46 pm
Pretty sure all the original North/South streets are named after cities. Tulsa is a rather young city so... Cities west of the Mississippi west of Main, east of the river east of Main. And alphabetically (with Main being A I suppose).

Now the streets running East/West North of the tracks or 1st Street I believe are named after people, or at least some of them are/were.

I just ain't got time to be offended by street signs.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: erfalf on August 14, 2017, 08:29:23 pm
And the online repository you seek can be found by clicking on the link below.

https://www.google.com/


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Hoss on August 14, 2017, 08:33:07 pm
Pretty sure all the original North/South streets are named after cities. Tulsa is a rather young city so... Cities west of the Mississippi west of Main, east of the river east of Main. And alphabetically (with Main being A I suppose).

Now the streets running East/West North of the tracks or 1st Street I believe are named after people, or at least some of them are/were.

I just ain't got time to be offended by street signs.

N/S west of Sheridan that aren't main throughfares (Peoria, Utica, Lewis, Harvard, Yale, Sheridan) are mainly named for cities.  The mainlines are a mix of school names (Harvard, Yale) and from what I can remember the others were named based on the family names of the property owners the land ran through at the time they were named.

I found this a fascinating read.  Not sure how accurate it is.

http://www.tulsagal.net/2010/10/tulsas-street-names.html

And I wonder if the aforementioned Pattons in the above linked article are in any way related to our own Recycler??


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Red Arrow on August 14, 2017, 09:15:31 pm
I guess Iíve never understood the mindset of people who look for things to be outraged or upset about especially team names, street names, or school names.

It's difficult to be a victim if you cannot find something about which to be offended.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Red Arrow on August 14, 2017, 09:16:44 pm
Tecumseh conspired with the British against the American government, Sheridan massacred non-combatant civilians and is synonymous with the "scorched earth" warfare tactic, having a "King" and "Queen" street is just absolutely treasonous, and "Virgin" flat out pornographic.

Offended yet?   ;D


Nope, keep trying.
 
 ;D



Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Markk on August 15, 2017, 02:56:42 am
Most avenues are named for cites. West of main are named for cites to our west and east of main, well you get the idea. Not named for people at all.

In some cases, cities are named after people. 


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: BKDotCom on August 15, 2017, 08:45:31 am
In some cases, cities are named after people.  

In some cases people are named after things.

Denver Ave is named after Denver Co.   It's irrelevant that Denver CO is named after James W. Denver

Quote
The surname Denver was first found in Norfolk where "this name, taken from the town of Anvers Belgium, was born by Roland D'Anvers, who came thence to the conquest of England... Anvers is the French version of Antwerp

The name 'Antwerp' came from a mythical giant named 'antigoon' who resided near the banks of the river Scheldt. ... The name Antwerpen originated from the words 'hand werpen' which means 'to throw' in Dutch


Long story....   Denver means "to throw"

Denver CO -> James Denver -> D'Anvers surname -> Anvers Belgium -> Antwerp -> Antwerpen:  "to throw"


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Markk on August 15, 2017, 08:46:51 am
In some cases people are named after things.

Denver Ave is named after Denver Co.   It's irrelevant that Denver CO is named after James W. Denver

Hence, the reason I asked my original question.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: Markk on August 15, 2017, 11:15:09 am
And the online repository you seek can be found by clicking on the link below.

https://www.google.com/

Cute, but not helpful.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: sgrizzle on August 15, 2017, 03:27:03 pm
popular history credits Sheridan with saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Not hard to find old famous people who are bad by today's standards.

Hard to make it through a Dire Straits song and that wasn't that long ago.



Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: patric on August 15, 2017, 04:23:23 pm
popular history credits Sheridan with saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Not hard to find old famous people who are bad by today's standards.

Hard to make it through a Dire Straits song and that wasn't that long ago.


How ironic that today, someone in OKC wants to scrub "Stand Watie" from their public names.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: TheArtist on August 15, 2017, 10:02:29 pm
  Yes I can imagine that most people, famous or not, in the past had beliefs and actions that we would find repugnant today.  

I suppose one way to "sort them out" might be to ask "Where were they on the spectrum of beliefs and actions compared to other people in their time and place?"  as in Were their beliefs or actions "acceptable" or not atypical, for the time and place they lived in?

 Then the next questions might be "In the totality of their beliefs and actions, did they further or advance goodness in the world, or, did they rise above their time and place in an exceptional way that made a positive contribution to their society and humanity?"  

The questions could I am sure use some finesse but you get the gist.
Still not going to be an easy thing to answer in some cases, but perhaps its a start.


Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 16, 2017, 07:33:15 am

We can waste a lot of time and energy re-naming things which remind us of our ignorant or hurtful past or we can see the names and let them remind us of how far we have not come as humankind.



Fixed it for you.

Mostly I agree with you - as distressing as you may find that.  We absolutely MUST keep our knowledge and sense of history - and keep it honestly! - as I ranted about for years.  We haven't done that in a classroom or church environment, so is the public space the only place we will pay attention??  It's a real cluster...






Title: Re: Historical basis for street names
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 16, 2017, 07:36:51 am
Tecumseh conspired with the British against the American government, Sheridan massacred non-combatant civilians and is synonymous with the "scorched earth" warfare tactic, having a "King" and "Queen" street is just absolutely treasonous, and "Virgin" flat out pornographic.

Offended yet?   ;D



You owe me an apology...!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5BdBfhliwM