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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: sgrizzle on July 07, 2017, 05:45:32 pm



Title: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: sgrizzle on July 07, 2017, 05:45:32 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/artsandentertainment/arts-council-to-sell-historic-harwelden-mansion/article_a17b07c1-522b-5367-af1c-54abdb122d1b.html

AHCT selling Harwelden.
(Also TulsaNow's physical address)


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: Breadburner on July 07, 2017, 09:18:40 pm
Nuttin like the Blair mansion....


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: Conan71 on July 07, 2017, 10:03:29 pm
Well, if I hadnít already purchased a B & B...



Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: sgrizzle on July 09, 2017, 07:41:58 pm
Well, if I hadnít already purchased a B & B...



Franchise opportunities?


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2017, 09:30:33 pm
Franchise opportunities?

Heeeyyyy!


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 10, 2017, 10:35:44 am
Big enough property to bulldoze and put in quite a few condos...!

Bring on the wrecking balls!!  Would love it if they would salvage the brick - I could use a few thousand of those for a house!




Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: guido911 on July 10, 2017, 10:52:12 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/artsandentertainment/arts-council-to-sell-historic-harwelden-mansion/article_a17b07c1-522b-5367-af1c-54abdb122d1b.html

AHCT selling Harwelden.
(Also TulsaNow's physical address)

Not ready to downsize yet.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: SXSW on July 11, 2017, 08:46:37 am
Big enough property to bulldoze and put in quite a few condos...!

Bring on the wrecking balls!!  Would love it if they would salvage the brick - I could use a few thousand of those for a house!

I doubt that would happen, but I could see the property being subdivided.  However the location right next to Riverside and the steep slope there complicates things.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 11, 2017, 09:06:45 am
I doubt that would happen, but I could see the property being subdivided.  However the location right next to Riverside and the steep slope there complicates things.


All the developer has to do is pay the zoning "fees"...to the right people, of course...

Look right across the street - in two directions.  Condo's/apartments, etc.   Money is King!



Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: Conan71 on July 11, 2017, 10:07:39 am
If Iím not mistaken (which is rare for me not to), isnít Harwelden on the National Register?  That would pretty well put the kibosh on a rape & scrape, though I donít believe it would stop the development of the lower part of the property which would be a shame as green space is a disappearing commodity and it is a nice view from atop the hill.

Some of my favorite all-time pics of my wife and my wife and I were taken during the Gatsby Picnic the Art Deco Society had on the grounds six or seven years ago.  Several of this forums contributors were there that day.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 11, 2017, 12:06:27 pm
If Iím not mistaken (which is rare for me not to), isnít Harwelden on the National Register?  That would pretty well put the kibosh on a rape & scrape, though I donít believe it would stop the development of the lower part of the property which would be a shame as green space is a disappearing commodity and it is a nice view from atop the hill.

Some of my favorite all-time pics of my wife and my wife and I were taken during the Gatsby Picnic the Art Deco Society had on the grounds six or seven years ago.  Several of this forums contributors were there that day.



Nice distant memories.  Keep the pics.  I'm betting on rape and scrape.  It's Tulsa...it's what we do.



And yeah, I probably AM feeling particularly 'pissee' today...



Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: sgrizzle on July 11, 2017, 07:25:02 pm
If Iím not mistaken (which is rare for me not to), isnít Harwelden on the National Register?  That would pretty well put the kibosh on a rape & scrape, though I donít believe it would stop the development of the lower part of the property which would be a shame as green space is a disappearing commodity and it is a nice view from atop the hill.

Some of my favorite all-time pics of my wife and my wife and I were taken during the Gatsby Picnic the Art Deco Society had on the grounds six or seven years ago.  Several of this forums contributors were there that day.

It is on National Register, but not in a historic zone. Tear down is more difficult, but not out of the question.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 12, 2017, 01:26:55 pm
Big enough property to bulldoze and put in quite a few condos...!

Bring on the wrecking balls!!  Would love it if they would salvage the brick - I could use a few thousand of those for a house!



This property is in an ideal spot to bridge the residential area that surrounds it with the entrance to the Gathering Place. They should absolutely keep the house and (hopefully before the sale) split the lot so that the south side can be used to build some sort of development that would complement the Gathering Place and Blue Rose nearby.

I think a condo development with retail/restaurant space with a big patio would be awesome. Basically something like the building Roosevelt's is in could be neat right there and would compliment the buildings around there well. A rooftop restaurant would be really awesome.

The green space there is nice and I hope whoever buys it keeps as many trees as possible, but I wouldn't mind more density right there where downtown tapers off into condos and houses. Really would be a great opportunity for someone.

I wonder if the house could be converted into something or use it as it currently is (Office & Events) or perhaps a bed and breakfast.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 12, 2017, 02:13:41 pm
I know it's not quite riverfront, but there are 3 properties right on 21st south of Boston and by Main that are vacant and have been for a long time. The massive for sale sign should be converted to a permanent fixture at this point after 10 or so years. What a waste of decent property to be vacant so long after the last building was bulldozed (I believe a Shriner building). It is owned by "TUDORS FLATS LLC" and looks like they planned to put the same housing that is between there and the Harwelden. I think they did a nice job making some neat homes. I guess they found there was a limit to how many they could sell and put a stop to it or maybe they're hoping for a big payday from the lot.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 12, 2017, 02:24:08 pm


Nice distant memories.  Keep the pics.  I'm betting on rape and scrape.  It's Tulsa...it's what we do.

And yeah, I probably AM feeling particularly 'pissee' today...


If those properties a block away aren't selling after a decade, will the Harwelden do much better in the eyes of a developer looking to build? Even if it is split up, it seems like it might be another place which will sit as a vacant lot for years. It is not like you can see the river from that spot or that it actually connects to the main part of the Gathering Place. It will just be close to the new sidewalk. Does anyone think they will pay so much to demolish such a multi-million-dollar mansion for more empty lot space currently zoned single-family when there's a few lots available a block away already zoned correctly and more ready to build?

I'm guessing a rich person will buy this and put up a nice big fence or a business/non-profit will use it similar to how it is currently (and it will likely take a long time to sell if they want $5-7 million). I think the mansion is almost certainly safe just based on the financial feasibility of spending 4-7 million to get a lot worth half of that. You would have to be crazy (or stupid) to demolish it OR have such a massive planned development that it would be no big deal to wast that much (not likely).


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 12, 2017, 02:39:47 pm
This property is in an ideal spot to bridge the residential area that surrounds it with the entrance to the Gathering Place. They should absolutely keep the house and (hopefully before the sale) split the lot so that the south side can be used to build some sort of development that would complement the Gathering Place and Blue Rose nearby.

I think a condo development with retail/restaurant space with a big patio would be awesome. Basically something like the building Roosevelt's is in could be neat right there and would compliment the buildings around there well. A rooftop restaurant would be really awesome.

The green space there is nice and I hope whoever buys it keeps as many trees as possible, but I wouldn't mind more density right there where downtown tapers off into condos and houses. Really would be a great opportunity for someone.

I wonder if the house could be converted into something or use it as it currently is (Office & Events) or perhaps a bed and breakfast.


Any of those uses still come off as a rape and scrape, compared to what is there now.   I am sure a LOT of people think that Central Park is just a huge waste of space because it doesn't have more skyscrapers.  Tulsa has the opportunity to do a very small scale version of something similar.  We always seem to be casting about looking for "the next big thing" to really give Tulsa a mark to put on the map.  Well, this would be a good start.   We could have our very own "Central Park"!!   Build a lake, have some canals... Nice!

Ok...you got my rant juices flowing....

Get rid of all that crappy condo stuff around Harwelden.From 21st to at least 24th, Riverside to Cincinnati.  Add it to the park system.  New, cheap, throw-away construction posing as 'architecture' - Geez...!!  Joins Boulder Park north of 21st with plenty of pedestrian bridge capacity.  Better yet, close 21st right there, or take it overhead!

Then get rid of that "wannabe" skyscraper between 23rd and 24th, too.

Older houses south of there - leave them be!  Maybe slowly buy them up over the next 50 to 100 years as they come up for sale...?

And that large open lot with the mansion that came on the market some time back - east of the dam - can't remember the name of the place - leave it alone, too.  Buy it and add it to the park.  (Tulsa doesn't own it now, do they??  If so, I missed that....)

And getting rid of the old Shriner's building there on 21st??  Geez.  I mean...dam... it looks so much better as a run down parking lot with perpetual "For Sale" sign on it than it ever would as park!   Not.  At least the building was classy looking deco and could have been used for some civic use better than that slab-O-carp a$$fault !!


This would be better than anything Oklahoma City has ever thought about.   If we are looking for inspiration, look 'BIG' - it don't get any 'bigger' than New York for this inspiration - don't just copy some tacky OKC nonsense...






Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 12, 2017, 03:11:52 pm
Wow you really hate that area, huh!?

I think the Gathering Place and Riverpark trails have the park thing covered right there along with Veterans park. It is a very nice lot and would be a shame to lose it, but realistically it will either be bought by a wealthy person and likely closed up with a fence so the public may not use it or bought by a business.

I don't think the city is looking for any more parks. It would be amazing if Riverparks/GKFF or some other benefactor purchased it to turn into a park and public venue/non-profit offices.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 12, 2017, 03:36:43 pm
Wow you really hate that area, huh!?

I think the Gathering Place and Riverpark trails have the park thing covered right there along with Veterans park. It is a very nice lot and would be a shame to lose it, but realistically it will either be bought by a wealthy person and likely closed up with a fence so the public may not use it or bought by a business.

I don't think the city is looking for any more parks. It would be amazing if Riverparks/GKFF or some other benefactor purchased it to turn into a park and public venue/non-profit offices.


What???   NO!!  I like the area a lot!!  That whole part of town is one of my favorite areas and you would be surprised how many times SWMBO and I just drive to and around the place just to look at everything from houses, to trees, to river sand.  It has been quite a while, but have lived in that area for short time and if I wasn't set on getting onto a farm, I could settle there and just let the years roll on!!

I don't like bad architecture - actually, I do hate bad architecture...guess that comes from being the son of a great architectural engineer - and that area has gotten more than it's share in recent years!

I also love the residential that stretches between Riverside and Peoria for those miles...the Brookside area.  I do hate "infill"... which means; mess up the neighborhood with inappropriate carp that doesn't fit the 'ambience'.  These areas create a wonderful living "history" book and active museum of the history of Tulsa.  Cutting them up to put another cheesy McMansion is just tacky.  


I think you are right - city isn't looking for any more parks.  Which is sad and shortsighted.  This could be added to Boulder Park along with the mansion at the dam to make a bigger park.  We have great beginnings of what could be even better!   We have occasional chances to do astounding things...and mostly don't.









Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 13, 2017, 07:21:55 am

What???   NO!!  I like the area a lot!!  That whole part of town is one of my favorite areas and you would be surprised how many times SWMBO and I just drive to and around the place just to look at everything from houses, to trees, to river sand.  It has been quite a while, but have lived in that area for short time and if I wasn't set on getting onto a farm, I could settle there and just let the years roll on!!

I don't like bad architecture - actually, I do hate bad architecture...guess that comes from being the son of a great architectural engineer - and that area has gotten more than it's share in recent years!

I also love the residential that stretches between Riverside and Peoria for those miles...the Brookside area.  I do hate "infill"... which means; mess up the neighborhood with inappropriate carp that doesn't fit the 'ambience'.  These areas create a wonderful living "history" book and active museum of the history of Tulsa.  Cutting them up to put another cheesy McMansion is just tacky.  


I think you are right - city isn't looking for any more parks.  Which is sad and shortsighted.  This could be added to Boulder Park along with the mansion at the dam to make a bigger park.  We have great beginnings of what could be even better!   We have occasional chances to do astounding things...and mostly don't.



I mean seems like you hate it as it currently is with the condos and newer home developments. I like the new houses built there on the top of the hill by Tudor Flats LLC. I like the mix of all kinds of architecture in the area. There are some ugly buildings (the condos there aren't great and the ORU building falling apart is an eye sore), but I like the overall mix of old and new, spanish, english and modern architecture.

Nice condos and apartments can add a lot to the area, allowing more people to live in one of the best most interesting areas of Oklahoma and enhancing the area. Yeah, some aren't so great, but most look better than a lot of eye sores I've seen in other cities also. It looks like most developers working in the area are making higher quality developments such as the new ones on Denver that look great.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 13, 2017, 08:01:21 am
I mean seems like you hate it as it currently is with the condos and newer home developments. I like the new houses built there on the top of the hill by Tudor Flats LLC. I like the mix of all kinds of architecture in the area. There are some ugly buildings (the condos there aren't great and the ORU building falling apart is an eye sore), but I like the overall mix of old and new, spanish, english and modern architecture.

Nice condos and apartments can add a lot to the area, allowing more people to live in one of the best most interesting areas of Oklahoma and enhancing the area. Yeah, some aren't so great, but most look better than a lot of eye sores I've seen in other cities also. It looks like most developers working in the area are making higher quality developments such as the new ones on Denver that look great.


Denver would be some north of where I am talking about.  Tudor Flats - are you talking about the eyesore directly across the street from Harwelden to the east?  With the covered parking as the most obvious (visually intrusive) architectural feature seen from the street?  And really, people??  Planting oaks in a 10 ft wide band bounded by a$$fault??  That is tree abuse!  And if I were more of a tree hugger, I would be more vocal about it.  

Then stand at the corner of 22nd and Main (google earth works nicely since I am out of town today) and the NW corner, the NE corner, and the previously mentioned SE corner sets of buildings.  The NW and NE remind me of small rabbit warren Irish style buildings, positioned right on the street.  Without even a courtyard area in the center to help redeem a total lack of green space for tenants.  Since there is no real automobile consideration that I can see, and we refuse to do a proper job of transit, the street is lined with cars...always a visually "stimulating and interesting" experience!   Or not.   Perfect exhibit of our societal psychosis with the personal automobile and refusal to consider any other way as viable approach.

Is the ORU building the one on Woodward at Main?  I don't know the name of it.  With a little bit of persuading, I could maybe almost go along with leaving it there, in spite of its "Cabrini Green", "Gulag Archipelago" style flavor to the area.  It has been around a long time and some rebuild/rejuvenation might just bring it up to where it could contribute to the history story in a slightly off, funky way.  At least be a lasting reminder to future generations of "don't....just don't..."!!

I guess it all boils down to my dislike of changing the architectural history of an area like this just so more "poor little rich boys and girls" can come in, gentrify the place and destroy the flavor that makes it what it is.  The history of the evolution of that area - with the organic flows of architecture over stretches of time as we grew - is what makes it most interesting and appealing.  As those same people are showing (that they like it), but then bringing their post modern, cracker-box wannabe 'stuff' with them.  Kind of like what is happening to small towns with the explosive growth all around us...something I have gone into in depth other places.  It's a balancing act.  And we don't 'balance' very well.







Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: Oil Capital on July 13, 2017, 08:58:20 am
I'm guessing George Kaiser comes to the rescue again.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 13, 2017, 11:34:20 am

Denver would be some north of where I am talking about.  Tudor Flats - are you talking about the eyesore directly across the street from Harwelden to the east?  With the covered parking as the most obvious (visually intrusive) architectural feature seen from the street?  And really, people??  Planting oaks in a 10 ft wide band bounded by a$$fault??  That is tree abuse!  And if I were more of a tree hugger, I would be more vocal about it.  




No, not those ugly apartments! The nice red-brick tudor-style homes north of the Harwelden. They are awesome with great balconies and views but pricey ($500-$900k!). It is a shame they stopped at just the single row of them and left 3 big empty ugly lots.

That whole entire area is Uptown/Riverview:
 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riverview,+Tulsa,+OK/@36.1392158,-96.0015457,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b6eb692168a02b:0xf0e058b9231a2078!8m2!3d36.141766!4d-95.9951561 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riverview,+Tulsa,+OK/@36.1392158,-96.0015457,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b6eb692168a02b:0xf0e058b9231a2078!8m2!3d36.141766!4d-95.9951561)).

Boston is looking good in that neighborhood for the most part there but Boulder, Main and Baltimore are full of urban blight, ugly buildings and empty lots. Still better than many areas in other cities around downtown. It has lots of potential if only some property owners would lure in developers or sell for reasonable prices. Maybe south of downtown should be a new focus spot with a TIFF to improve it like the Brady. The streets are pretty nice and clean overall, but just far too much blank spots which break it up and make it look empty.


Title: Re: Large riverfront property for sale, comes with house.
Post by: SXSW on July 13, 2017, 01:56:33 pm
No, not those ugly apartments! The nice red-brick tudor-style homes north of the Harwelden. They are awesome with great balconies and views but pricey ($500-$900k!). It is a shame they stopped at just the single row of them and left 3 big empty ugly lots.

That whole entire area is Uptown/Riverview:
 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riverview,+Tulsa,+OK/@36.1392158,-96.0015457,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b6eb692168a02b:0xf0e058b9231a2078!8m2!3d36.141766!4d-95.9951561 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riverview,+Tulsa,+OK/@36.1392158,-96.0015457,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b6eb692168a02b:0xf0e058b9231a2078!8m2!3d36.141766!4d-95.9951561)).

Boston is looking good in that neighborhood for the most part there but Boulder, Main and Baltimore are full of urban blight, ugly buildings and empty lots. Still better than many areas in other cities around downtown. It has lots of potential if only some property owners would lure in developers or sell for reasonable prices. Maybe south of downtown should be a new focus spot with a TIFF to improve it like the Brady. The streets are pretty nice and clean overall, but just far too much blank spots which break it up and make it look empty.

I think its renaissance is coming with the Gathering Place just to the south, it's the natural "connection" between downtown and the park/river.  IMO the office tower parking lots (H&P, Mapco Plaza, etc) have greatly contributed to this area not being redeveloped, as well as the lack of existing buildings to renovate unlike Brady and others parts of downtown.  Almost everything in this area has to be a new build.  

I think this would be the perfect area to target urban housing for families not just young professionals like most of downtown.  It is more of a residential neighborhood with a few office towers and the retail district at 18th & Boston, and could eventually be better tied into the adjacent Riverview and Maple Ridge neighborhoods.  Plus the area has a decent and improving neighborhood school (Lee) and a direct pedestrian/bike connection to the Gathering Place and river trails.  Doubleshot moving to the vacant lot at 16th & Boulder could be just the beginning, at least I hope so.