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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: sgrizzle on May 06, 2017, 04:47:42 pm



Title: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: sgrizzle on May 06, 2017, 04:47:42 pm
For those who haven't been recently, Promenade seems to be clearly circling a drain. They lost 2 of 4 anchors, and then replaced half of one. Only about a dozen major chains left in the central mall area, most of the shops are local and many of them don't appear to be the kind of businesses who look to be able to afford normal retail rent. Last time I went, I passed three non-working elevators and the north parking garage looked to be not far away from a story on being closed due to safety issues. The theater is also seemingly unable to compete with AMC across the street.

Since years ago we had the trend of closing open-air shopping areas and making them into malls, I wondered if we could do the opposite. Here's my idea:

(http://grizzle.co/images/promenadephase1.jpg)
Tear down the north parking garage, theater, and most of the central mall. Save some infrastructure and structure for phase 2:

(http://grizzle.co/images/promenadephase2.jpg)
1. Sell/lease the space where the north garage was for outparcels.
2. Turn the remaining Mervyn's space into shared/reconfigurable office suites. 8x8 rooms with free wifi and up, things like that. Most commercial office space these days is primarily large spaces and long leases.
3. Turn the former Macy's space into a year-round farmer's market. Maybe start first floor only at first. As long as the space can meet foodservice code, lots of growers and upstart bakers and makers could make money off of a booth here. The parking garage provides ample convenient parking for getting stuff to/from cars in all weather.
4. Replace on what was the south half of promenade mall (food court side) create an open air market for vendors who need a cheaper space or less hours. Only open in good weather, and maybe weekends. Also add a fountain or other large feature in this area as this is the new main entrance of the center.
5. On what was the theater side, created indoor spaces which face south. This is for people who want something even more permanent that the farmer's market. Permanent, independent retail. Lease could include part of the open air space as well for fair weather dining or drinks. This side could even be made two story at some point.

These concepts could expand to the Dillards and JCPenny spaces if those businesses go and cannot be replaced with similar.



Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Conan71 on May 07, 2017, 08:18:15 am
I canít imagine JCP and Dillard's are long for the world with the way national retail trends are going.

I like your remake of The Promenade but the open air market would need to be policed pretty well by managers to keep it from looking like a flea market or Expo Square craft show.

Some of the ideas previously floated about expanding OU Shusterman via a sky bridge are also not a bad adaptive re-use as well.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: erfalf on May 08, 2017, 06:49:33 am
Does Shusterman really need any more space. I figure they probably have the resources (and land available) to expand on their already existing footprint?


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: SXSW on May 08, 2017, 10:42:07 am
There are two good examples for Promenade to potentially follow in the Denver area.  One is Belmar in Lakewood where an indoor mall was completed demolished so they could restore the street grid and create a "downtown core" with retail, office and residential.  There are some big boxes on the periphery including a Target, Dick's Sporting Goods, Whole Foods and a couple others but it's mostly small-format chain retail/restaurants and a movie theater.  
Old Mall Site
(http://urbanland.uli.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2013/07/myers_2_351-351x236.jpg)

Site Plan
(http://www.vmwp.com/projects/images/plan_01.jpg)

Images
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tU-94GUBh60/maxresdefault.jpg)
(http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/belmarplaza.jpg)
(https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/files/HighResDownload_Belmar-107.jpg)


The other is Downtown Westminster where the Westminster Mall used to be before they tore it down a couple years ago.  It's now in the beginning stages of being turned into a similar mixed-use area.  Some images:

Old Mall Site
(http://www.partycloz.com/index_files/MallMap02b.jpg)

New Plans
(https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/files/westminster-plan.jpg)
(http://denverurbanreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/WND-GN-141008-88th-Ave-Crop-2_sm.jpg)
(http://crej.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/front-jen.jpeg)


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: sgrizzle on May 08, 2017, 04:03:04 pm
Good examples. It would be nice if Promenade and Southroads were controlled by one forward-thinking entity, especially with that story about Southroads being full of empty space. Add a parking garage or two a connector across 41st, some apartments and a hotel or two.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: TeeDub on May 08, 2017, 09:06:23 pm

Or, just burn it down and collect the insurance.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: SXSW on May 09, 2017, 10:30:25 am
Does Shusterman really need any more space. I figure they probably have the resources (and land available) to expand on their already existing footprint?

I don't think OU needs any academic space across Yale but housing targeting their students could be something they could get behind. 

The key here would be connecting the campus and surrounding neighborhood to whatever is developed.  Extending 42nd west to Yale would be ideal though the steep grade near the intersection could complicate things.  Extending Braden north to 41st and adding a light could help with connectivity to Southroads.

The large garage at 43rd & Darlington could easily remain and be worked around. 


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Conan71 on May 09, 2017, 11:10:03 am
I don't think OU needs any academic space across Yale but housing targeting their students could be something they could get behind.  

The key here would be connecting the campus and surrounding neighborhood to whatever is developed.  Extending 42nd west to Yale would be ideal though the steep grade near the intersection could complicate things.  Extending Braden north to 41st and adding a light could help with connectivity to Southroads.

The large garage at 43rd & Darlington could easily remain and be worked around.  

Considering this is designed as car-centric suburban, Iíd have to disagree that extending Braden or 42nd would be beneficial to the area.  The last thing 41st needs between Yale & Sheridan is another traffic light and traffic trying to turn from an alignment of 42nd would be somewhat problematic in morning, evening, or lunch rush.  I think the lights at Darlington and 43rd work well now.

Without a complete nuke and re-pave, thereís no real way to make the area more pedestrian friendly if that was the goal.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 09, 2017, 08:08:42 pm
Without a complete nuke and re-pave, thereís no real way to make the area more pedestrian friendly if that was the goal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: SXSW on August 07, 2017, 08:44:11 am
Or, just burn it down and collect the insurance.

Or (almost) have a tornado destroy it.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: patric on August 07, 2017, 10:36:37 am
Or (almost) have a tornado destroy it.

Better aim.

(https://comedycentral.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/tds/videos/season_12_v/v6/ds_jon_12080_v6.jpg)

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/tozhfn/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-partly-pouty



Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Hoss on August 07, 2017, 11:14:27 am
I can't help but think that this stretch of 41st was my first siting of Paul Tay on his bike with the 'inflatable member' on the back as he was dressed as Santa.  In summer.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Breadburner on August 07, 2017, 06:38:06 pm
I can't help but think that this stretch of 41st was my first siting of Paul Tay on his bike with the 'inflatable member' on the back as he was dressed as Santa.  In summer.

Now thats contributing to the thread....


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: Hoss on August 07, 2017, 08:48:59 pm
Now thats contributing to the thread....

Don't worry....I was channeling you.


Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 08, 2017, 09:22:00 am
Don't worry....I was channeling you.


But your contribution was much more valuable than any of his, so I say you failed the channeling experiment!!


When Promenade was Southland, it was open - not sure going back to that will help.  The era of malls seems to be winding down...next cycle coming up soon!



Title: Re: Promenade: Thinking outside the (BIG) Box
Post by: carltonplace on August 11, 2017, 11:48:25 am
Looks like this problem solved itself