The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/group-redesigning-tulsas-flag-settles-three-finalists-presents-city-council/

Discuss.

Ha!  Before I read the caption, I thought that lower right was one of the options and I was getting ready to say, "Gag...!"

B is good. 

A looks derivative. 

C is good, but a little 'busy'.

Yuck  :-\

Not entirely a fan of any. I don't see any being identified as truly Tulsan. I guess the one with the dreamcatcher, as it is probably the closest in relation to the OK State flag (using Colorado/Denver as a standard, the two are similar but different enough).

Meh.  None of them are bad, none of them blow me away.  That's probably a requisite to be a flag for any government.  At least all are somewhat unique and identifiable, none are a detailed logo indistinguishable from distance with a blue field in the background the the word of whatever entity it belongs to inscribed.

I viscerally like C, but it doesn't remind of of Tulsa at all.  A has a clever use of the T logo.  B's dream catcher is cliche, but an homage to the Native American heritage I guess.

I have ideas bouncing in my head, but not sure I could do any better.

Dreamcatchers are Ojibwe. But we have a governor whose daughter wears a headdress, so what do we know about cultural appropriation?

I think A is the only real choice here.

A is supposed to be an odd riff on the Tulsa city shield, I take it?

B I get with the Indian heritage, but C is a mystery to me.  How exactly does that tie in to Tulsa?  It’s like a new logo submission for Dos Equis.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/eb/6c/44eb6c92c63835e1ea3b9a02c27c54b8.jpg)

I like A because it does reference the shield...but it's also a T, a diamond and a tree. B is cheesy and C is just a design with no reference to anything.

A for the win.
Santa Fe can have B.
C is a chain link fence.

All three suck. But B sucks the least, so that's the winner. I have spoken.

So this new flag will attract tourists at a rate higher than the costs of replacing all the flags?

Will they be replacing the shield "flag" on all the city vehicles as well?

I understand this guy is on the committee.........

(http://www.youthministrygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Screenshot_6_14_13_10_49_AM.png)

I would actually take Sheldon's pick

They are all smile....

I was expecting far worse, so pleasantly surprised.

What about taking B, flipping the dreamcatcher and tweaking it to make it look like the downtown skyline?

http://imgur.com/a/n2wQo

Crude mockup. I'm seeing a lot of issues with using the dreamcatcher on comments/Facebook.

1) We'll have to update the flag when we build a news skyscraper (like that'll ever happen)

2) I'm not worried about the dream catcher, not least because that's not a dream catcher. I know some person involved in the flag project called it a dream catcher but I think it's looks like and is intended to look like the Osage shield on the flag of Oklahoma.

The primary goal is to not suck.  It de-sucking one thing associated with Tulsa improves image/brand-awareness, so-be-it


The "shield flag" on city vehicles isn't a flag, it's a shield.   That's the primary problem with our flag..  Someone just threw the city shield on a white flag and said "done"

A is the least awful.

B is very "meh" in that it isn't good, but neither is it entirely awful.

C is, I dunno...the result of a fever dream? It really looks like something Homer Simpson would have seen after eating a Guatemalan Insanity Pepper. Minus Johnny Cash as his spirit animal of course.

Can we see some of the designs that were not finalist? I have a hard time believing these were the three best unless they were the only submissions.

They say nearly 400 submitted.  Surely we have more imagination, creativity and artistic talent in this town...??   Or maybe it is not a problem with the submissions so much as the evaluators...?  

I agree - let's see some more!   Maybe they should have put it up for an online poll for a couple months - top 3 "likes" gets to the finals.

Don't like any of the three choices.  Actually if they offered the bottom right (Black with "TULSA" in the center), I'd almost pick that over the others.  I'd say put the Tulsa emblem which is on police cars, with the feathers under the word Tulsa, in competition with the others.

I voted B, but A is growing on my.  C looks like an abstract Swedish flag and I would immediately think of Sweden when I saw it.

The project was based largely on Roman Mars' TED talk on flags in which he set out a bunch of rules.  This breaks one of them.  The flag should be easy to draw by hand.  Drawing a tiny skyline would be difficult.  The "dreamcatcher" part of the flag is straight lines with points and would be easy to draw.

This breaks another key rule.  No words on the flag.  It's lazy.  Flags are about symbols that remind you of the place.  Putting the name of the place on the flag is lame.

I like B.  It's drawable and has staying power.  "A" looks exactly like the Ukrainian flag and could easily be the flag of some Ukrainian army unit.  C is too busy.

Any new abstract flag design is going to get a ton of hate and take a generation to become loved.  Even the Chicago flag, which is pretty universally recognized as the best, would be voted down if proposed brand new today. 

That's exactly why some countries stick with old flags that don't make sense.  New Zealand can't agree on a new abstract design, so it just sticks with its outdated colonial-era flag.  Heck, Hawaii still has the British Union Jack on its flag.       

Hawaii:
(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/64/1164-004-0CD31DB5.gif)

I wish I could vote for this one:

(http://i.imgur.com/R5kHKvZ.jpg)

Take the name out and you have a winner.
 
 ;D

So on A they want you to see black wall street, the letter T, a tree to represent Council Oak, a tulsa-ish blue, oil drilling, and golden driller-ish yellow. They want you to somehow interpret it as more like this:
(http://grizzle.co/images/FIFYflagA.jpg)

I was being sarcastic...I'd rather be sarcastic than an a$$hole...

Why is the "sky blue" on the bottom in A?  Flying inverted?

River?

From the link at the beginning of this thread:

The Gulf Stream off the Florida Keys is blue but none of the water I've seen around here is blue.  Am I just looking in the wrong places?

 :D

Well.. our esteemed former mayor has weighed in on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/DeweyBartlett


He couldn't be more wrong for each of his points

https://www.ted.com/talks/roman_mars_why_city_flags_may_be_the_worst_designed_thing_you_ve_never_noticed  (start at 7:00)

There's also a thread on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/tulsa/comments/682uha/former_mayor_bartlett_doesnt_exactly_like_the_new/)

Sour grapes because he thought he would be voted in again...

Reading all the replies to his post is infuriating.   We're surrounded by morons. 
#triggered

If words could be on the flag...

I hate to ever be in a position to agree with Dewey, but I can't stand any of the new designs.   His basic premise of "if you have to explain it, you missed the mark" is (to me) evident in all of them.  The only recognizable symbol on any of them is the dream catcher, and I'm not sure how that is in any way specific to Tulsa.

Here's some other flags you have to explain:

(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-1818.gif)
(http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst059.gif)
(http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-history-cop/files/2015/04/City-Flag.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg/300px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png)

Good thing no one listens to rules.   Probably half of the states have words on them.

There are some pretty horrible state flags out there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_U.S._states_and_territories

Let me re-phrase.  "If you have to explain the symbols, you missed the mark"

All the flags you show have very obvious symbols.  Even the Chicago flag I "get".  I didn't know what the four stars represented, but I knew they were stars and understood there is probably a reason for them.

The others are easy:

- US Flag:  "Stars and bars"  Thirteen bars to represent the original colonies, and a star for each state.
- OK:  Indian Shield.  Heck our state name means "Home of the Red Man" or something like that.  Whether that's the best symbolism, probably arguable, but I understand it.
- Russia:  Simple Hammer and Sickle (signifying work, etc...) on a red (power) background.  Not sure on the star.

But the important thing is that I easily see what the symbols are, not that I understand what each stands for.

As I noted earlier, the only symbols I can easily identify on any of the three Tulsa flag options is the dream catcher. Which is (to me) too derivative of the state flag to work.  On the others, I'm not even sure what the symbols are, much less what they stand for.

(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac76/marlewis1964/Tulsa%20Flag%20Mock%20Up_zpsipbb9lpb.jpg)

OK,  to illustrate my point about understanding symbols versus symbolism,  I did this mock up in ten minutes on PPT.   I'm not advocating for it, but the actual symbols are easily identifiable:

- Blue base layer to symbolize the River:  Without the river, and the crossing here, Tulsa would not exist.  The river was the start of everythng.

- Symbolized Oil Derrick/oil gusher. Derrick in gold to symbolize wealth, with black oil gushing up forming a T.  Again, "Tulsa" springing from the very ground we are on in the form of oil.

- Four stars each in a different color: 

1) Green - The Council Oak, and in general the land of Green Country
2) Tan - The same color (I tried) as the shield on the state flag.  Symbolizing the Indians and their importance to the state.
3) Blood Red - Tulsa Race Riot, and healing from that.  (Originally, I had that as a black star, but went with Blood Red due to possible issue with the color black associated with race, etc..)
4) Silver/Metalic - Art Deco and all things of the boom era in Tulsa.

All of that on white background, symbolizing the clear skies, etc...

Again, I'm not advocating this design, and I slapped it together in 10 minutes, but it shows what I am talking about related to obvious symbols, versus trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

  

I only care about the size and shape of official flag. It can have any design.

I am thinking maybe 3" x 10" with a forked end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swallowtail_(flag)

The stars meant absolutely nothing to me without the explanation. The T is a letter and technically bad form. In the end, you basically made a flag version of this: (https://igx.4sqi.net/img/general/600x600/133690_rXLkRVLScs6Ji4nXPKQA9fX1U68UsPmIYMkVt5tdD_w.jpg)

What do the stars on the current flag represent?
civilized tribes or somesuch?

I certainly can't draw it, but this is the description of my "submittal".

Two stripes, horizontal, half the field each.  Top one black (for black gold).  Bottom one red (for meaning of the state name - red people).  The only issue would be the Anarchist's...maybe make the stripes narrower on a field of white (5 alternating stripes - white black white red white).

Centered, a stylized picture of the Golden Driller, like this;

http://www.fleetfeettulsa.com/races/2017-golden-driller-marathon


Would have the name Tulsa but very small letters...

Or maybe one like Anderson Design put on one of their posters.

Why didn't someone put the Golden Driller on a dark blue background? If anything represents Tulsa, that has to be one of the most iconic symbols there is.

(https://i.imgur.com/BGCWnGx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/puouALe.png)

I didn't say I like my design.  I actually think it's too busy.  My point, which I'm not sure if you are intentionally missing or not, is regarding the symbols.   The Chicago flag is hailed as a great example of a city flag, but symbolically it means nothing to me. (The stars on that flag represent events in Chicago history.  Didn't know that.)   However, the symbols themselves are easily understood and identified.   

Flag #1 of the three finalists also has a "T" in it, bad form or not.  I just don't see any of the other symbolism present, until it is described.  But, at least it's got that going for it, which is nice.

Also, I have always liked that fountain.  :)



   

Make the tree a stylistic tree to match the derrick, and I am on board with this one.

It's the Council Oak. Maybe someone with more artistic talent can convert it. I would also prefer a stylized golden driller over the generic derrick.

I knew it was the Oak.  I thought about putting it on my flag with the derrick.   But I like where you are going with the Driller and the Oak.  Stylize both of them, and they represent oil, money, progress, etc, and also our Indian heritage, green country, and related.  Two symbols for both worlds, both over the green and blue stripes representing the land.  I actually really like it.

Pick a tree, any tree... 

https://www.google.com/search?q=stylized+oak+tree&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7y9jTv9HTAhXhslQKHe13AGgQ_AUICigB&biw=1600&bih=722

(https://www.swedbank.com/idc/groups/public/@i/@sbg/@gs/documents/logotype/img_100049@t~a1.jpg)

Takes old guys to think of the obvious.  Golden Driller is about as obvious as it gets.

A graphic artist could do a lot better, this is just with clip art I found.


(https://i.imgur.com/OC0KRsk.png)

Well it was either that or the Prayer Tower and the Praying Hands. In the past, most family and friends visiting wanted to see the Golden Driller or the Praying Hands.

Or both!   I still get that once in a while, but the "shine" seems to have worn off ORU a little bit in recent years.

welp, so far I like the official choices better than what the forum has cooked up.

How about the Council Oak as a backdrop for the Golden Driller in the forefront (as opposed to side-by-side)?

Now that its an amusement park ride in France...
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7354/27739103990_c8d9044a32_o.jpg)

So my take is that you like the extremely stylistic/abstract designs more so than a more immediately recognizable one?   Not disparaging, just observing.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/tulsa-flag-campaign-organizers-respond-to-backlash-over-three-city-flag-design-finalists/

Sounds like a whole lot of rationalization going on there...since there is no "none of the above" option listed, I am betting that of the 30,000 who have watched their show, a good number would have voted "no" if the possibility existed.  Just because 6,000 voted for one of the three does NOT mean that most people like any one of the three. 

They need to fix the poll to make it valid and do it again!


How is that for "snarky", Kevin...??!!

We didn't get none of the above for president.

Your design was as abstract as theirs with the rainbow stars.

Sounds like Tulsa SOP, SNAFU.

A - Looks like a flag for some resort chain like Marriott/Hilton/Sheraton

B - I like, be seems more symbolic to the state rather than Tulsa

C - Looks like it needs to be strung up with all the other semaphore flags on a cruise ship.

JMO, YMMV

Here's Orlando's choices:
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/04/03/voting-is-now-open-for-orlandos-next-city-flag?utm_source=widget&utm_medium=articleblog&utm_campaign=endofarticle&utm_content=RelatedStories

Although it appears they actually got input and did a redesign round:
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/05/01/finalists-modify-designs-for-orlandos-city-flag-contest

Not a single one has Mickey ears.

One more time...  I'm not advocating for that design.   Even I don't like it, as it's too busy and trying to do too much.  I do agree on the "rainbow" stars, even with stars, the added colors were just too much.  As I said, less than 10 minutes of thought went into it.

But no, it is not more abstract than the others.  (OK, maybe more abstract than #2, but that's just a shield / dream catcher, so is too derivative of the state flag.)   I actually added the stars to mimic the Chicago flag, which seems to be held up as a great flag.  Stars are obvious symbols, and are not abstract.  They are perhaps one of the most commonly used symbols overall. 

The one I like the best so far, with the obvious symbols, is some version of the last one by Swake.  The Driller and/or a Derrick, with the council oak, over the stripes.     

Interesting that all four finalists incorporate an "O" in the design.  I thought letters were bad form?

Here's the flag for them........
(http://cf.ltkcdn.net/save/images/std/30055-300x200-Disneycoupon.jpg)

Not quite as important as President, but I truly wish to he$$ that we did have that choice - and restart the election process with the previous losers no longer eligible to run for that cycle!!

No one cares about form.   Words are fine.

I was just ribbbing grizzle a bit.  In one of his earlier post he said the "T" on my flag was bad form.  ;)

I'm just wondering if our team would be up for a redesign round. Orlando did it, the tulsa pedestrian bridge did it.

Heck, why not just have a flag with a big blue "T" on it on a yellow background, or some such colors.

Don't know what the first thing is..  Probably the sun.   It's definitely a circle though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Two are definitely the sun more than they are "O"
The fountain thing might be the top of an "O"

Was there a "none-of-the-above" choice regarding the new pedestrian bridge?

(https://media2.fdncms.com/orlando/imager/u/blog/3590898/city_of_orlando.png?cb=1491244716)

I like the Japanese Chrysanthemum motif in the 3rd one.  But we don't have ocean nearby, so there is that....

If we are gonna have water, ought to be a river look.  We don't do waves here.

Admittedly, it's easy to use an "O" for Orlando and combine it with a sun motif, or similar.   But it's definitely supposed to be an "O" for Orlando as well. 

The first option for the Tulsa flag also incorporated a stylized "T", which is one aspect of it I do like.

Sweet Jesus on toast...Hell son, I thought you were dead.

...or back in prison...

Is that anything like "Christ on a corndog"?

I've always heard it as Jesus Christ on a Cracker

I was making a vague movie reference from a recent viewing.  Hoping someone would pick it up.  I'll wait.  :)

Teach the controversy: 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/effort-to-replace-tulsa-s-city-flag-now-drawing-criticism/article_206564bc-22b4-56db-a76a-e653e45622b0.html

One of the comments to that article talked about if it ain't broke, don't fix it...like with state license tags.

I would submit that if no one even knows we have a flag, let alone what it looks like, we do have a little bit of a problem.  Life changing?  No, not at all.  But it would be a very nice to have thing if we can get to something more notable and memorable than now.  I don't begrudge our Councilors working on this - it is a valid civic activity to me.



And the state license tag - the old one was nice.  Rather attractive.  Have been watching the new one for months and it is just pure bu$$ ugly!!   Could have been good if they had done the bird on the side, with some color, similar to what the old tag did with the statue picture.  Can't tell what that thing is supposed to be now.

They should have gotten Twitter to sponsor the new tags