The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

New meters being installed this week, target for 5/15 to be operating.

http://www.newson6.com/story/35165371/new-parking-meter-installation-start-monday-in-tulsa

I saw those going in and read the TW article on it today.  It seems the basic "improvement" is that there isn't a specific space you are have to park in.  I have to assume that means there will be a ticket you put on your dash or from your rearview or you enter your plate number and the attendants can scan license plates to see if everyone is in compliance. How else would you enforce it?

Also, without a specific assigned space there is no "free parking" if someone leaves early.  For better or worse, I guess.

Really, meters aren't about revenue.  They are about making sure people are using metered spaces to frequent businesses for short intervals, as opposed to residents and employees parking there all day.  I go to the Brady and elsewhere downtown, meters are fine by me.

There is one of those in the lot just west of Hodges Bend.  I've used it twice.  $3 to park.  It's nice for that lot because it is a gravel lot and there are no marked spaces.   Just park and go to the meter and input your tag.  I've never gone back and put my receipt on my dash, I assumed they had the ability to check your tag against the machine in real-time.  (I'll have to double check on that next time.)  Overall,  convenient and easy to use.

I assume they have someone come by on a regular basis and scan all the tags, if your tag isn't in the meter, you get a ticket.

Likely someone in a golf cart with a license plate scanner.  Downside might be that data being kept and sold to companies that try to build a profile of your habits for marketing purposes.

Last time I was in Louisville, that's about all I saw. Pay by tag was great when it was consistent, hopping around different districts during the day.

So the Mrs has gotten me the best Father's Day gift ever... babysitters.

That being said, we are going to eat and to the ballgame Saturday night. Might spend most of the afternoon in the Brady area. My question is, where should/could I park for hours on end, and be with in a decent proximity of either or both Main/Brady & OneOK field?

The parking garage at 1st and Main is cheap on weekends/nights, and is probably the best value for any paid spots (though it's not that close to ONEOK Field). But being Saturday, there is no enforcement of meter/time limit signs, so you can find a spot wherever on-street for free. There are also BOK lots on the north side of the railroad tracks that sell for games

For some reason I was under the impression meters were still running on Saturdays. Thanks for the tip.

I don't remember them ever running on Saturdays.  Maybe I'm mistaken.

I know when I'm taking in a game I almost always park in the lot behind McNellie's.  That doesn't do you good as a central location if you're going to the Brady District however...

The baseball crowd will be early on Saturday. They are giving away a "Mickey Mantle world championship ring" to the first 2,000 fans when the gates open at 6pm.
I really like the new bar area out in the left field seating area. I also recommend the Mexican Cantina behind third base area for the nachos.

Yeah, meters are unenforced after 5:00pm on weekdays and all day weekends. Private lots and other signs (loading zone, no parking from here to curb, etc.) are still enforced, but that's it.

If there's no signage blocking it, and no attendant, it should be fair game.

Parking Meters Could be Extended East in Tulsa

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/parking-meters-could-be-extended-east-tulsa (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/parking-meters-could-be-extended-east-tulsa)


Sounds like American Parking et al are finally getting there way.  I wonder how the restaurant/entertainment industry DT feels about the 8PM and Saturday enforcement.

I don't mind paying to park when I go downtown, even on a Saturday night. (I've been doing it in Brady/Arts for a while now).  But they mentioned a two-hour limit, and that is a problem.  If I'm going to dinner and then an event, I need more like a four-hour limit.

I don't agree about moving to 8, and definitely don't like adding Saturdays. And I feel there should be some free parking for sure, even if it's out of the way (walk 3 blocks to your destination, free parking or pay to park right in front) to promote walkability.

The parking system is not a revenue stream meant to fix any holes in the City budget - despite what people on Facebook are complaining about. It is absolutely a need to have a (working) parking meter system, with available free parking, private parking, lot/garages, and other means of transit as well. Hopefully this is just a step in getting to that point.

This is mostly just for discussion purposes, but why should the city have to provide any free parking downtown?  As more people utilize downtown, both living there and for entertainment/work,  parking will be a more sought-after resource.  It seems only reasonable that the users are charged for the service.

Automobiles are the only reliable method for most of us to go downtown since Tulsa's public transit system is what it is.  Most public transit systems are subsidized, so the users are not paying their way.  Consider free parking the subsidy for the public transit system we don't have.

In my area of downtown there are getting to be fewer and fewer parking spots in the evening and weekends as there are more residents, events, etc. They just park there and the cars sit all evening or day on the weekend. So pretty soon there will essentially be no street parking nearby and your best option will be the $5 parking garage. So then the question becomes do you want to have no street parking and pay $5 for the garage a block or two away? Or $2 parking closer to my store? Plus if they do that what I will do is say... "spend $30 or more in my store, show me the app on your phone that shows you paid to park and I will pay for your parking (deduct $2 from your purchase total). Or if you spend $50 or more in my store, show me your garage parking ticket and I will pay for your parking. Other businesses can do something similar.

Pretty soon with the growth in the area and the residents and their guests, etc. taking up the street parking more and more to the point that soon there will be no street parking, if they leave things the same, your choice will then be to pay $5 for the garage, and not the $2 street parking nearby.

For my business its good to have spots constantly opening up nearby, and if you want to stay more than 2 hours, the parking garages will be an option.

I certainly understand the need for parking spot turnover.  Free parking doesn't need to be unregulated parking but it would bring up how to pay for enforcement.  Newark Delaware had (late 60s, early 70s) limited street parking near the University.  Someone chalked tire treads and if you were there too long, you got a ticket.  I don't know if the city or the University paid for enforcement.

Offering to pay for a customer's parking is not new but it is a good idea.  It tells me you want my business.  Well, it's a good idea except that your pedestrian customers will want a discount too.  Shopping mall merchants pay for their customer's parking in the rent they pay to the mall owners.  It's a lot more convenient for the customers.  Ultimately the customer pays for parking in marginally higher prices at the stores.  Since pretty much every one at the mall arrived by auto, there are probably not too many complaints from pedestrian customers.

The merchants and city need to decide if parking meters are for parking turnover or revenue.  If the parking rates are low enough, the business that would typically do a (pick a number) $10 sale could participate in parking reimbursement.  The price of a ticket could help make up the difference to pay for enforcement.

As far as I can tell the parking system is "self contained" the proceeds go to pay for the employees and maintenance, replacement, upgrades, signage, etc. Its not a source of revenue and I wonder where people get that idea? They don't even make enough to do what they want to do with what they make which is why so many are broken down and we have multiple systems (haven't been able to afford a downtown wide change all at once) etc.

I need turnover, and if not then we need to go back to the zoning issue and transit.  We fought for the zoning thing and got no where (which could help with where to place public garages and transit so they worked well with retail areas etc. but that was a no go) we had very little support from the people.  Now we are trying this solution and everyone is up in arms.  WTH!

I get your position, and maybe could see a compromise solution.  First, I think most of us would agree that we aren't getting a robust transit system anytime soon, so that's not even on the table.  Also, per Artist's posts below, the issue is with parking turnover and availability, rather than "parking" in general. 

I could see this working in a similar vein to turnpikes.  I.E., there are plenty of free roads to get me between TUL/OKC/Lawton, but they are a little slower and take a little more time than the turnpikes.   I am more than happy to pay for the direct premium route, but others may choose to take the back roads.   For downtown parking, the street parking is the premium and should be charged for.  If the city subsidises free parking, it would be best done in large parking garages.  These might be a bit further away from the door of the establishment, but it would be free.  That general scenario might satisfy both sides.  Free parking, but a little less convenient, for those that want it, and premium street parking for those willing to pay for it.

I use the turnpike to OKC a lot...for many years.  Occasionally we take route 66 for the "road trip" feeling of it.   Did that again over Christmas and it is always a refreshing change.  Got some good pics of several sections of old road.  Found a 1961 Cadillac for sale that looked interesting.  Ate at Ken's Pizza in Chandler - very disappointing this time...they have changed.  And it took about 4 hours from Edmond to Sapulpa, not counting lunch.  We spent probably 30 minutes doing touristy stuff (pics, etc) so the 1 hr 40 min trip took almost double by not using turnpike.  

Noticed that Richardson (candidate for governor) has bill board saying he will "make turnpikes free again..."   Geez...just shows how stupid he is right out the gate...turnpikes in this state have never been free, even thought that WAS the promise to fool people into voting for them - that they would be free when "paid for".

Could go south to I-40, then west to OKC for free!  Have done that a few times and it only takes about extra 20 - 30 min overall for where I go in that area.  Very viable when there is heavy construction on the Turner.  But notice how Tulsa is 'boxed in' with pay roads - it's the only way OKC can keep their "edge" - let everyone in and out of that area for free while overcharging everyone to get into and out of Tulsa area.  That is a multi-million dollar benefit/subsidy to OKC over us.

Interesting.  I don't mind walking a few blocks.  The last time I was downtown, I parked near the County Court House (mom's estate stuff) near 7th and Denver.  I got done with the Probate folks and still had time on my parking meter so I walked to Decopolis and bought a couple of Christmas gifts. Then I stopped by Lassalle's and got a Quarter Muffulette to go before returning to my car.  0.8 mile 'round trip per Google Maps.  No biggie though.  My usual lunch break walk is 2.4 miles.

...and Pike Pass makes that so easy.

Plus ya save a 'nickel' using the pass...

Didn't we reach a conclusion on parking meters in the Arts District some time ago, then implementation hit a snag (or failed for whatever reason).  To this day I don't think there are working meters at anytime in the Arts District.  People from the towers take up spots all day to avoid paying $25-50  a month to park, much to the annoyance of merchants.

People wouldn't expect the mall to provide free parking for them to get to their office.  These spaces are the parking for the restaurants and shops downtown.  The discussion on how much and when is important, but if we can't implement the 8-5pm baseline version of parking meters... I have trouble paying too much attention to the more rigorous details.

Basically, it's all academic until we can show that we can actually implement some plan.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/city-matters-the-solution-to-tulsa-s-parking-system-no/article_823f985f-fa63-5556-a50f-5bf2f5393a5f.html

Would the subsidies going to Jones Airport be considered to public transit or private...??  Subsidy from those of us who don't have private planes for those that do, not paying their (whole) way.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/aerospace/jones-riverside-airport-cleared-for-million-in-improvements/article_cb56a0b8-1a84-5e92-9c41-08ed2cc61db6.html

Thanks 2014. 

It would be public.   Much like our taxes going to bus and rail systems that you don't use.

Again, people are complaining that the city will be taking away their free parking.


First off the changes in pricing and hours would not apply all over downtown, they can be selectively applied to those areas that want and need it due to "locked in parking" by residents and workers in the area.

There already is no free parking during the days, so no change there.  

Evenings and on Saturdays, more and more there is no free parking in my area for the residents and workers take up the spots... and then you park several blocks away in spots that even with this plan could still be free parking.   (Residents may already have parking in a parking garage, but if they see a spot right nearby where they live... why not take it if its free? Then where is the free parking for you and my customers?) (Restaurant and store workers may be told "Do not park in front of the business that makes you money!" but that doesn't stop them from parking in front of another restaurant or business.) I have several new restaurants coming to my area along with several new hotels (even if they have valet or garage parking, if I was going to a city, or an event at a hotel, and saw a free street spot nearby on the way there I would snag it lol)

We just did a study that addressed this issue in the Downtown Walkability Study that cost us $75,000 and everyone loved it and said we needed to implement all of it.  This parking meter issue was just part of an "holistic" approach in which all the parts work together.  And it was even noted in the study that changing the parking from "free" can seem counterintuitive, and that often some merchants complain.  But that they have found that after its implemented, its usually those that complained the loudest, who then most loudly hail it as a success!  Studies show that when its applied SALES GO UP! Doesn't "seem" like they would, but the facts show that they do.  

And again, there would still be free parking nearby in those spots and areas where people do not park as much (where you sometimes end up parking now anyway).  But in those areas where the parking is locked in and full, there would now be a paid option if you so wish.

And going back years before, and continuing in the years since to one degree or another.  It is not an isolated point - it is a continuum.


And exactly...


It's very similar to a John Green quote about paying taxes for schools.  Subsidizing public transit like rail and bus generally tends to help the lowest income strata of our society more - helps them get to those minimum wage jobs that we so love to create in this country and then claim we had done something... How about transitioning from creating more low paying jobs to making work worth more to get better paying jobs??  Now there is a truly unique and worthwhile goal!!   While private aviation support subsidizes people at the other end of that spectra...

But just like fuel taxes which are supposed to help with road maintenance, there are specific fuel taxes on avgas and jet fuel which I believe are earmarked for general aviation funding which I assume includes airport maintenance and ATC at attended airports so users of the system aren't exactly getting a free ride on the backs of those who don't fly GA or commercial.

Yes there are.  The whole point is that everyone gets to "subsidize" someone else in our world.  Everyone gets to pay some, everyone gets subsidized.  Some more than others...the poorest get the least, while the richest get the most, but that is just the reality.

Landing fees are usually for large planes but some busy airports levy them on small planes too.  Ramp fees or minimum fuel purchases are often used by Fixed Base Operators (FBOs) to help pay the way.

I would love to see you tell the students at Spartan that they are rich.   Maybe all the people at Tulsa Tech learning how to fly/work on planes are the rich ones?   Maybe the other 4 flight schools are the ones that are benefiting?

There are probably thousands of people who make their livings (or are working on improving their livings) out there.    Oh right, it doesn't provide direct benefit to you so it must be a bad idea.

Why do you hate education?    Is it because it gives your minimum wage workers the opportunity to better themselves?

Nowhere did I say that any of them own and operate their own planes.  Nor did I imply it anywhere.  Or that they are rich.  And when they do operate for themselves, they too enjoy the subsidies that the richer owners get.  That is a great RWRE diversion technique though - sounds just like the Fake Fox News Playbook Manual training course!


As for education, well have you actually read any of my posts?   Or even read the little note at the bottom of every post I make?   I have NO minimum wage workers!  Never have had - never will.  Everyone I hire starts making $10 per hour until their "probation" period is done...which is really simple - show up, show interest, show the ability to learn, and use it - you pass!  Usually get to that point in less than 30 days....NEVER had one go past 45 days.  If it did, there would have been an obvious failure on my part to pick the person for the position.  Hasn't happened.  At the end of probation, next step is $15 an hour.  We aggressively go up from there based on performance, productivity, contribution to the cause, and ongoing process of the probationary conditions.  Because $15 an hour IS what a true minimum wage level would be had we not been subjected to the trials and tribulations of the last 35 - 40 years of the kind of "gutting" of the American Dream that we have experienced.   (1968 minimum wage 'peaked' in this country at what today's equivalent would be right at $15 an hour.)

We are better than that.


Edit;
Upon further reflection, I generally don't feel like I hire people to work 'for' me - I hire them to work with me.  Cutesy little catch phrase, but true.

I would be curious to see how many minimum wage workers there really are in the area.  Even Braums starts at $9/hr (or so their signage says.)

If you are an adult making minimum wage, you have made extremely poor life choices or you have absolutely no ambition.   (Most likely a large combination of both.)

That's a pretty damned condescending attitude.  How about disabled adults?  I could go on..

Parking meter enforcement starts today!  It seems like many other cities have adopted this system already (https://parkmobile.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/200621470-US-CAN-Locations), so it should work  (the A's include Albuquerque, Ames, Amherst, Annapolis, Appleton, Arlington, Asheville, Athens, Atlanta... then I stopped reading).  I'm still not clear on why it took us so long to figure it out, but lets move forward!

City page:
https://www.cityoftulsa.org/residents/arts-recreation/downtown-tulsa/downtown-parking/

The App:
https://parkmobile.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203301060-Tulsa-OK-Central-Parking-Parkmobile-Info

You can pay the meter or via the app.  It is zone based parking, so I think you can move around in a zone without having to re-"plug" the meter.  I downloaded the app but haven't used it yet.  New signage up, saw some attendants walking around talking to people - they said they are doing "light enforcement" for the first few days to get people used to the new system.

Prepare for the "sky is falling" statements from workers who have been taking up spots all day right in front of the shops and the "I didn't see the sign" complaints from many others.  :)

Victim shaming.   Classic Fake Fox News methodology.

$9 an hour is $360 a week.  It comes to a total of $18720 before taxes if you don't take a week off for vacation.  That is less than a lot of new cars cost these days. 

Minimum wage has pretty much always been less than a lot of new cars.  In 1968, the pinnacle of minimum wage, the $1.60/hr was $3328/yr at 2080 hours.  A basic Chevy Chevelle with a 6 cyl was about $2900 but a 396 Chevelle was $4560.  I googled "sticker price 1968 Chevelle" and found some window sticker images.

Olds Cutlass would sticker near $4,000, depending heavily on options.  Could be purchased for about 20% off that with just a little bit of haggling.  Also, by 1970, they were about the same.  Mine was $3,200 new purchase price paid - still have the sticker somewhere and it was about $4,100 I think...

Then, for a year of min wage, you could get nice Chevy - '68 Chevelle SS, 396 about $4,600 - 1 yr and 4 mo work at '68 min wage.  Or Olds (like a Lexus today). 

Today for min wage, you get a tiny Toyota - very basic Corolla or Yaris, for about 1 yr to 1 yr 4 mo work.  Or Lexus LS350 type at near $50k for only close to 3 years min wage money.


That's just one thing a 40% reduction in real pay does over 50 years.   And that has gone up the scale too.  Well, except for the top 1%, of course.

I'm sure there are plenty of people making minimum wage (plus tips) in an area that has many bar tenders and servers, non profits, artists, and small scale start-ups.   Every parking spot was usually taken, and most were cars that never moved all day - some by the people who depend on short-term customers for their tips/business.  The meters are likely to force them to walk a few blocks to park for cheap/free - freeing up the parking for customers, which might see some of them make more money in the long run and increase sales tax revenue (and parking) for the city.  Yay market economics! (but will admittedly will just be an inconvenience for some others)

Also, a lot of the parking in the district was people from the towers who were happy to park for free and walk an extra few blocks.  This simply shifts that dynamic, now the workers in the Arts District will have to walk a few extra blocks if they want to park for  free.  The people from the towers can pay for their lots or, like everyone else, park further away. 

Minimum wage should be a living wage....

That said, if you're earning minimum wage, you should be shopping for a used car, not new.
Also, nobody finances a car for 12 months.   The vast majority of car loans are for 5 or more years.

Even making more than min wage, I never buy a new car...just too much expense for too little return.  Luckily, there are so many out there willing to throw their money away like that so I never have to worry about those insane auto expenses.

One case as example - have a friend who spent $50k on a Lexus.  Even IF they get 200,000 miles or more, their per mile capital expense would be $0.25.  Today, it is still over $0.50!!  They won't, 'cause there are about 80,000 mi on it and they won't live long enough to go even another 50,000.   Maybe I should buy it for about $5k or so...?

The most expensive car I have ever bought  was $15,000, 20 years ago ('95 Grand Marquis).  Now, over 190,000 miles later, my capital cost for that car is just under $0.08 per mile.   Routine maintenance has given no major expenses beyond normal wear and tear - no engine or transmission repair.  Same as the Lexus.  And it still runs very good, just looks a little forlorn...faded paint, worn leather inside.  The cheapest one ever is a '97 Gr Marquis that cost $2,700, and returned $1,800 insurance buyout for a wreck from a guy who hit me, with 80,000 miles so far.  Still driving it, since drivability was not impaired at all.  $1,000 cost, 80,000 miles.  Still driving it, so it will be down to a penny a mile very soon...

Sadly, the 'new car bug' is one of those ways poor people stay poor.  Driving a car way beyond what would suffice.  Grand Marquis is noticeably better than just "what would suffice"...and there are still lots of them out there in really good shape for cheap money.  I am actually thinking about getting a newer one for the next 20 years!  Probably will cost about $5k to $8k for low miles, excellent condition.



 

Should it be a "living wage" for 16 year old kids doing summer or seasonal work?

I always mowed lawns, threw newspapers, and did odd jobs in addition to working minimum wage jobs but I may be an oddball over-achiever who was resourceful enough to do more than the minimum to get by.

Granted, my view might be colored since I still work for the same company I have for 14 years in sales while co-owning and helping to operate three other businesses at the same time.

Why not?  If it is summer or seasonal, then they are getting proportionally less by the nature of the work.

Plus, if the job is not worth paying someone the true value of that work, how is it the kids or the adult workers fault that the employer can't properly manage their business??  If some 'work' is not worth the minimum wage, it is not worth doing at all.