The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2017/04/10/economic-development-means-gentrification-for-north-tulsa/

That does it. I will no longer shop at Dollar General Stores. I had no idea it was unhealthy.

So, I am just trying to wrap my head around this.

Developers/Home Owners/Anybody with a financial interest in property does anything possible to get "interest" in their area so more and more people desire it, therefore they will pay more for it.

But not the author of this piece? She insists that the "community" (innocuous no?) must be consulted (even though those people likely considered the community have no interest outside the home the own a mile away from the proposed development.

That also means that you have to ignore the fact that these boards must post their agenda's 24 hours (I think at least that much) in advance. Often times it's more than that. What exactly more do you propose they do? Start going door to door to the "community" (they actually DO have to do that also for zoning changes, within so many feet of the property anyway).

Honestly, this sounds like it was written by some high school student with a limited exposure to reality.

And I had no idea that Dollar Generals were assisting in the decline in life expectancy of those in North Tulsa. Who knew?

It sounded pretty stupid....

http://ktul.com/news/local/neighbors-protest-new-dollar-general

I really hate to be “that guy” but as long as stores suffer with higher rates of shrinkage in North Tulsa, you simply are not going to get upscale shopping.  Who wants to make the investment when theft is a concern and the income and demographics don’t fit?  I’m just not thinking Whole Foods would do well in North Tulsa.  Perhaps the price points at Sprouts could, but again, there’s the issue of theft.

Perhaps if Dollar General just raised their prices a bit they could be considered upscale.  It seems to work for some restaurants. 
 
 ;D

I do not believe these citizens are asking for upscale grocery stores. They are just asking for a full-size grocery store. Aldis would be a great alternative, in my opinion, even a warehouse market. If theft is such an issue, then why does Family Dollar and Dollar General stores keep popping on this side of town? There is a Family Dollar located within walking distance of the proposed site of the Dollar General. There's other grocery stores in north Tulsa but just not many options. The recent influx of Family Dollar/Dollar General stores popping up within walking distance of each other and not having enough full-sized grocery store options to choose from have a lot of citizens upset.

Nothing wrong with telling the truth...But you can just say "Stealing".....

Because Dollar General thinks they can make money.
There isn't a grocery store because they don't think they can make money.

Aldi would be great.  The issue with Aldi (who owns Trader Joe's) is that a big chunk of their sales comes from house brand alcohol.  We don't allow alcohol in grocery stores, which is a huge line item for smaller footprint grocers like Aldi/Trader Joe's, so it's hard to attract more outlets, especially into neighborhoods without the retailing demographics of Brookside.

But it's doable.  Rahm Emmanual got a Whole Foods opened up in Englewood, ground zero for urban crime on the Chicago South Side. 

Why does anyone go into business?

Dollar General is pretty much a Walgreens/CVS with no pharmacy. The vary same Walgreens/CVS types that newish urban areas desire because of the convenience.

Coincidentally, right next to the new(ish) Walmart distribution center between Tulsa & Bartlesville, they just constructed a Dollar General (or dollar something). It's convenience.

There is a Warehouse Market on N sheridan and a Warehouse Market on N Peoria that has been in business for many years now. Sav-a-Lot on N Lewis and a Las Americas on N Lewis. So there are grocery stores in that area that are profitable, and obviously there is a demand. There are food deserts in that part of town, I'm pretty sure that area could support another.

If somebody were to construct a new grocery store the city could give them a property tax break for a few years since they would be improving the land.  If they moved into an existing location then any tax breaks would give them an advantage over the other grocery stores in the area.  If there are two provitable grocery stores in the area and then you add a third you might make one of those other two not profitable.  I guess really it isn't just about making money but about making more money if you went somewhere else.  As soon as you run out of other places then these will move up the list (assuming the economics works out)

I don’t think that is quite accurate on the Aldi business model.  They have had stores in Oklahoma for at least 10 years if not more without alcohol sales.  Aldi’s business model is much closer to that of Save-A-Lot than it is Trader Joe’s.  TJ’s isn’t really full service, but they are more heavily staffed than any Aldi or Save-A-Lot I’ve been in.  Usually those stores will operate on 4-6 employees at any given time from what I have observed. 

And Aldi and Trader Joes aren't actually related, it's two companies owned by different members of the same family with similar but not matching business models. Aldi's business model is to sell house brands only at deep discounts limiting the number of items sold limiting inventory and shipping costs. Trader Joe's sells high quality items that are mostly house brands but have a much larger selection. TJ's items aren't as price sensitive thought they are cheaper than Whole Foods. Normally wine is a big part of TJ's business model.

To be a nitpicker, though....both of those WMs are not truly considered "north Tulsa".  The one on Sheridan is just about a stone's throw north of I-244 (for what it's worth I consider North Tulsa anything north of Apache and west of Harvard).  The one on Peoria, while technically in North Tulsa, is far north.  The closer you get to 66th the more it's considered Turley or South Sperry.  I used to work about 52nd N and Peoria for about a year (just across the street from McClain) and the difference a mile makes is pretty substantial.  But it's still a long ways between 63rd ST north/Peoria and King/Sheridan.

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/5b/a5bc7543-3d77-5734-9def-a9bdb5440642/566785c1128c1.image.jpg?resize=300%2C232)

Who says they are not considered north Tulsa? North Tulsa is north of downtown correct? We could be technical about the exact location but I'm going to guess a large percentage of Warehouse Market's clientele on N Peoria are citizens of north tulsa, given that is the only grocery in that area and the same goes for the Warehouse Market on N Sheridan.

Man, it's not like North Tulsa is 1000 miles away or on some island. Grocery shopping can actually be accessed by use of an automobile, and folks up in NT can drive anywhere to get groceries in short order.

And if it were on and island, they could use a boat.  Amiright?
Granted, the neighborhood would have a low swimability index.

Those who do all their shopping around Tulsa Transit schedules and routes have a bit more of a challenge.

He knows that, but doesn't give a crap.

That's pretty removed from reality.

Good luck doing anything with Tulsa Transit. Headway times are way too long.

People are mad that Reasor's at 51st and Harvard closed since now there are "no grocery stores nearby"

Those using Tulsa Transit hardest hit?

They are now doing 25% off all purchases.  I will miss this store because it is(was ) my local corner store. 

Went in a week ago.  It's VERY picked over.    Picked up a few things and some cleaning supplies

Very few places in North Tulsa are in danger of gentrification any time soon, especially the corner in question. Gentrification is definitely happening west of TU and east of downtown and in the Brady Heights neighborhood, but most of North Tulsa is full of cheap real estate. The real issue is affordable housing in livable conditions in a safe walkable area, but few places in Tulsa have that (basically none, although Pearl/Whittier have some of the best walkability right now with pretty cheap rent).

I can see the frustration in more and more Dollar General-type stores going in, but that's not really something the City Counsel is made to regulate (as was made clear after the CVS going in at 15th and Utica fiasco). You can argue the dollar general improves access to goods needed in the area. I can see that it might also discourage a grocery store from going in (competition on some items) and make it seem like the neighborhood has access to groceries, even though it is subpar with few healthy options and no fresh produce.

Within the next 10 years, perhaps Brady Heights will fill in more with rehabbed homes and just north of downtown could see some improvement, but I don't see homeowners being forced out or rent going through the roof in most areas in North Tulsa because of gentrification. I think the bigger issue is homes and neighborhoods declining with fewer decent places to rent (and that causes rent to go up for decent places).

If the urban renewal area between Brady Heights and OSU - Tulsa ever gets developed in a cool way, I could see that whole Greenwood/Brady Heights area south of Pine really taking off.  It's the only single family neighborhood in the whole city that is actually walkable to the cool parts of downtown.

Riverview and the Pearl and Owen Park are walkable to downtown too, but they connect to underdeveloped zones and/or oceans of surface parking. 

I'll be surprised if they make it till May 1st.  New sign, 50% off.  And not much left. 

I completely understand the frustration of people who see dollar stores popping up like QTs and mushrooms in springtime. People in north Tulsa have plenty of Dollar Store choices...but few other options.  When all your choices are the same old crap, it's not much of a choice.

North Tulsa has so much potential, I'm surprised so few people pay attention.  Areas near downtown and north of 244 have walkable street grids, cool old housing stock and some neat surviving storefronts that could be the foundation of our next great places. Further north are underdeveloped areas with inspiring views of downtown and the surrounding countryside.  The question is, who's going to build what in North Tulsa?

Sadly, we've spent millions on the Gilcrease Expressway and turning streets like Peoria into highways, while other areas don't even have sidewalks. The result is expensive "feel good" road projects that don't help build wealth, and actually deter the kind of high-quality development that people love. (Hint: wide, fast roads don't create places. They are designed for the sole purpose of moving lots of cars fast.  Thus, a wide, fast road is, by definition, a pass- through area.)  Where do you want to sit and have coffee or walk around? Probably not next to a highway.

The adjacent neighborhoods may have a walkable street grid, fairly dense housing, and a lot of folks without access to cars, but the public investment all goes to building ridiculous high-capacity roads. All those unnecessary and overly wide lanes make it easy to drive fast through the area, but they thwart good urban design and they don't really serve the local population.  Instead, they create an ideal habitat for Dollar stores and McDonalds.

If I could convince Tulsans of one thing it's that transportation planning and urban design and zoning and private development all go hand in hand.  You need to be thinking about what sort of place you want to build, and then make sure all the components contribute to this vision.  Currently, our bad habits, inertia and lack of vision are helping set the stage for North Tulsa to have lots of high-cost public investment and low-yield, car-centric private development.

Good points!

We drove up to Colorado Springs to visit some other ex-pat Tulsans yesterday, they kept insisting we needed to visit Costco and Trader Joe’s.  This was the first time MC or I had ever been in a Costco.  The TJ’s there does no alcohol sales yet the Costco across the parking lot does.  With the price point on Charles Shaw (Three Buck Chuck) wines, that almost has to be a loss-leader not a profit center anyhow.  I’m not aware of anything kinky in Colorado’s alcohol laws which would have prevented TJ’s from selling alcohol unless they have some sort of law about multiple liquor/wine/beer retailers within a certain proximity to each other.

As a side note, MC and I have always thought TJ’s had amazing prices on lamb.  Not so.  TJ’s was cheaper than Reasor’s in Tulsa but compared to Costco, they are stupid expensive.  Costco is about 40% cheaper on lamb products than TJ’s.
 
One other aside from this trip: I think we have become spoiled already to the quiet and simple life in Cimarron, NM.  I do NOT miss “power centers” and mega-retailers one iota.  Our local grocer is more than willing to provision all sorts of items for our personal and business kitchen needs they normally don’t carry on the shelves due to space limitations.

Colorado has very similar liquor laws to OK. 3.2 beer at grocery stores, and liquor and wine at liquor stores. I'm not sure about ownership laws, though. From what I understand, TJ's, costco, etc., would be allowed to own 1 liquor store in OK. Is that accurate? That's the law in NY, where I live, and many other states.

EDIT: I just looked it up, and CO has the 1 business 1 liquor store law. So there is probably another TJ's somewhere else in the state that has a liquor store.

Business 101.

Yep, I just went to their web site.  It appears there are 8 TJ stores in Colorado.  One store has alcohol sales in Denver the rest have none.  That pretty well blows away the theory that alcohol sales are central to their profit model.

Interesting to think that a state which has friendly enough laws to have been at the forefront of the craft beer explosion and one of the first to legalize recreational pot use still has some kinky sales and distribution laws.

One difference, a corporation cannot own a liquor store in the state. Tulsa is the only TJ's and they considered liquor but can't due to the corporate restriction. Has to be in an individual or partnership name.

Isn't a corporation a person?

No, a corporation has more rights.

Good thing we do not have the gentrification thing going on up in North Tulsa. And we might need to add another business to the lsit of those that are unhealthy...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/update-three-suspects-arrested-on-murder-complaints-after-fatal-armed/article_81dbbab9-39c4-55ce-81fe-bd3a3195ba7b.html

Hey, you keep on being all Christian and charitable and worrying about those with less than you, k? What was you said about yourself?


Or is there something particular about north Tulsa that leads to feel less for those people than others "without"?

Probably should have thought a bit before your weak azz attempt at tagging me as a hypocrite.

(http://rs1085.pbsrc.com/albums/j424/Aubergine_Ace/tumblr_mtz0ykZtKT1rl6c79o2_400_zps2818e113.gif~c200)

This may be a bit of a drift, but I'd like some group thought on the larger issue:

Gentrification is defined as improving an area to middle class taste.  Doing so creates more demand for more affluent people, which raises prices.  This brings on the complaint that it chases out current residents. But I don't see how that is avoided in an area that is largely renter occupied (as is the case with areas seen as less desirable) or where owners choose to cash out, other than keeping it less desirable? Not that all of North Tulsa is less desirable than all of anywhere else... I'm greatly generalizing.

Sure, it is possible that current owners/residents break the 40+ year cycle of decline in North Tulsa, but in that it hasn't happened yet, it is most likely that outsiders will be the catalyst for improving the area to middle class tastes.  That isn't a judgment; economics, "planning," and other factors have maintained the status quo, but it is rare for an area to see large scale change out of the blue.  It will likely be money coming in from outside the community, with that money comes people from outside the area and the bemoaning effects gentrification. Every well positioned older community with "good bones" that sees its fortunes change seems to go through the same process.

Retailers have computers running demographics constantly, looking for places that "fit" their model for a new store. The current demographics in North Tulsa appear to attract only select businesses.  If the area becomes more attractive to middle class tastes and attracts wealthier people, it will attract the businesses that follow that demographic.  Unfortunately, to attract those other businesses naturally the change that people are worried about (increasing the income/net worth of the people living there, which generally means moving less affluence people somewhere else) is likely part of the equation.  I'm not saying there isn't money to be made by opening a business in North Tulsa, I'm merely commenting on what I see happening.

Unfortunately, the choice appears to be status quo or change.  The status quo isn't a good choice because the area is likely to continue to decline and not attract the most desirable businesses (including main-line grocery stores). The change isn't desirable to many because it will break apart a long standing community.

Like  many on here I see a lot of potential in North Tulsa.  Cool homes, neighborhood churches, great location to downtown or TU, add life and value to the city utilizing existing infrastructure, etc. etc. etc.   But I don't see how we utilize those assets without altering the wealth paradigm (http://www.researchwizard.org/sites/default/files/Demographic-map-for-site-selection.pdf). And I don't see how we do that on a large scale without forcing the less affluent people to somewhere else (assuming history is a guide and simply making everyone wealthy isn't an option). 

Someone correct my ignorance, what are the other options.

The entire issue/discussion is simply one of personal change writ large.    A significant portion of people, in all walks of life, demographics, etc., want things to be "better", but don't want real change.   Whether that be to make more money (but not invest in training or education), or to lose weight or otherwise improve their fitness (but not make any real changes to their current lifestyle), or whatever. 

And real change often means a change in your social circles as well.  If a person changes, a lot of those old friends and associates (who are now in a different tax bracket, or are still laying on the couch eating Twinkies...) will hold that change against you.  The choice then is to either revert and keep the friends, or go find new ones.

That's basically gentrification.   A neighborhood has issues, whether it's crime, lack of home ownership, general poverty, etc..  Doesn't matter.   When/if real change comes to that neighborhood,  a good portion of the current residents will no longer fit or feel comfortable there.  So they move, or sell out for a profit, etc.   But one way or the other, a lot of them won't be there anymore.   

Saying "I want to be better, but want to keep everything the same", doesn't work.   True for people, true for neighborhoods.

 

Did I upset you?

Hey someone get Guido a Pacifier.....

Upset me? Again I am laughing at you. Did you not see how I was mocking the poorly written article that triggered this thread? Everyone else apparently did, but you got whooshed...

This thread needed some drift. That article that led this off was something else...

No Message.

Guid, I'm out on this. Have your fun.