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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: Dspike on April 03, 2017, 11:14:50 pm



Title: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Dspike on April 03, 2017, 11:14:50 pm
The congregation voted in 2011 to move downtown. And on April 9, they will vote to launch a capital campaign for the move.

"CONGREGATIONAL VOTE
APRIL 9 | 11:30 A.M.
FOLLOWING ONE SPECIAL SERVICE FOR ALL AT 10:00 A.M.
On April 9, the congregation will vote on the following motion from the Board of Trustees.

At the conclusion of their research, the Relocation Task Force unanimously agrees there are no obstacles to moving the church downtown, nor any findings that warrant a change in direction. The board affirms, by a vote of 16-1 and one abstention, these finding.

The board believes it is in the best interest of the church to move downtown and therefore calls for the next step in the process to be a vote of the congregation to launch the capital campaign.

The congregational meeting to vote will take place at 11:30 a.m. in the sanctuary following a special service for all at 10:00 a.m. with the President of the Unitarian Universalist Association, Rev. Peter Morales."

http://allsoulschurch.org/relocation


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on April 04, 2017, 06:09:26 am
Yes but how many blocks will be dedicated to parking?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: johrasephoenix on April 04, 2017, 06:18:56 am
Maybe this is a chance to have a conversation about the churches and Tcc and other institutions pulling together on parking. Build it right next to First Presbyterian and use TCC parking, or anywhere else and use an office building garage. It's not like the office building needs it on Sunday morning.

I hope the Unitarians have an urban planner or two on their board to make these points.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: erfalf on April 04, 2017, 06:48:46 am
Bartlesville has it's fair share of surface lots downtown as well, however I do know that situations like you suggesting do exist.

Rogers State has a campus downtown. They own a small 20 car lot across the street and the old Oakley dealership new car lot a few blocks away (which is not enough parking for their needs). However they use the Babtist Church lots during the week. No classes on Sundays, no conflicts.

The Methodist church (that actually just moved to the east side of town) used to use the Credit Union parking garage on Sundays. First Christian utilizes the Price Tower and Community Center lots on the weekend I believe.

Not sure what downtown Tulsa is like Sunday mornings, but there are never conflicts in downtown Bartlesville.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: johrasephoenix on April 04, 2017, 08:20:01 am
I imagine the best place for it is sandwiched right between two Art Deco skyscrapers right in the middle of everything. Not only would it look awesome, but there will be a ton of unused garage parking available on a Sunday.  Usually churches can work out a nearly free or free parking deal for parishioners that is less than the cost of buying a lot.

When I was there the Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches in downtown Austin had a similar deal.  


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 04, 2017, 08:30:57 am
I imagine the best place for it is sandwiched right between two Art Deco skyscrapers right in the middle of everything. Not only would it look awesome, but there will be a ton of unused garage parking available on a Sunday.  Usually churches can work out a nearly free or free parking deal for parishioners that is less than the cost of buying a lot.

When I was there the Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches in downtown Austin had a similar deal.  
It's going in at 7th and Frankfort and the church has a deal already with the existing pay lot across the street for parking.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Dspike on April 04, 2017, 08:38:28 am
Put it in the title, but the location has been set since 2011. Here is a graphic showing where it is and I assume the blue P is the parking lot they intend to use, although the description says "covered parking" so perhaps they intend to use the lot directly west of the church. Both seem very underutilized currently.

Also, the slideshow on their website describes the downtown option as including "195 designated covered parking spots with additional street parking on Sundays."

(http://allsoulschurch.org/media/1994/header-image.png)


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 04, 2017, 08:49:25 am
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Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 04, 2017, 09:03:42 am
Put it in the title, but the location has been set since 2011. Here is a graphic showing where it is and I assume the blue P is the parking lot they intend to use, although the description says "covered parking" so perhaps they intend to use the lot directly west of the church. Both seem very underutilized currently.

Also, the slideshow on their website describes the downtown option as including "195 designated covered parking spots with additional street parking on Sundays."

(http://allsoulschurch.org/media/1994/header-image.png)

Unless something has changed, it's the covered parking, the graphic is wrong.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Dspike on April 04, 2017, 09:16:52 am
The FAQ on the Church's relocation site discusses parking too:

"Q: Will there be sufficient parking downtown?

A: Yes. Additionally, the parking commitment from the donor family was just renewed.
The donors continue to stand by their original gift to ensure approximately 275 spots across the
street from the church for All Souls exclusive use on Sundays, Saturdays and weekday evenings.
We also plan to have approximately 30 parking spots, on-site, mostly handicapped. For
comparison, we currently have a 165-spot parking lot. The donors will also reserve a portion of
the parking lot for use during the week days to handle smaller events and employee parking.
They may choose to lease out a portion of the remaining parking to help offset the cost of
purchasing and maintaining the parking facility. The weekday needs of the church would need to
be surveyed to determine adequate coverage. For large weekday memorial services and special
events, it may be necessary to enter into an agreement with other facilities/churches in the area
to provide the needed parking and make use of our shuttle buses to accommodate the
need. There are also approximately 70 free, on-street parking spots directly surrounding the
church block."

http://allsoulschurch.org/media/1988/taskforcefaqrevised331.pdf


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 04, 2017, 11:30:50 am
The covered lot due west is already under contract, at least for weekdays.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: johrasephoenix on April 04, 2017, 11:42:08 am
Seems like a good spot - sorry I missed the title.  Hopefully it looks awesome and provides a little juice to the area.  Do they have any renderings or other glimpses of what kind of architecture to expect?

Glad to see their not tearing down any buildings a la most downtown Tulsa institutions. 

The part you posted about parking is the model way to do it - putting the lot under contract for Sundays, with much reduced need the rest of the week so the spots can support a different downtown entity.  Most of the other churches have enough dedicated parking for Easter Sunday sitting vacant 95% of the year. 


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on April 04, 2017, 12:06:57 pm
Nice, I had wondered what had happened with this.  That will be a nice bookend on the south end of the Blue Dome and hopefully re-energize that lonely stretch of 6th Street especially if the Brickhugger development gets going across the street at the Nordam site. 

As an aside, I like that aerial perspective of downtown with the Osage Hills in the background.  You don't really notice the elevation change on the street.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Townsend on April 04, 2017, 12:14:09 pm
If there is new development in the area after the church is built:

How far would a bar need to be from the church? 

Is it just bars or do all establishments serving alcohol have to watch for distance from a church?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: BKDotCom on April 04, 2017, 01:20:04 pm
If there is new development in the area after the church is built:

How far would a bar need to be from the church? 

Is it just bars or do all establishments serving alcohol have to watch for distance from a church?

That requirement should be inversely proportional to some sort of density metric.
Unfortunately our downtown is the least densely populated part of the city... *sigh*


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 04, 2017, 01:33:16 pm
If there is new development in the area after the church is built:

How far would a bar need to be from the church?  

Is it just bars or do all establishments serving alcohol have to watch for distance from a church?

300'

Quote from: 37A OS 2-139
It shall be unlawful for any mixed beverage establishment, beer and wine establishment or bottle club which has been licensed by the ABLE Commission and which has as its main purpose the selling or serving of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, or package store, to be located within three hundred (300) feet of any public or private school or church property primarily and regularly used for worship services and religious activities
http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=479577
(that's the new law, but it is very similar to the old laws governing the same)



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 04, 2017, 02:01:21 pm
My office is one block to the east.

I would love to have a big church filled with people seven days a week as a neighbor.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Townsend on April 04, 2017, 02:07:58 pm
300'
http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=479577
(that's the new law, but it is very similar to the old laws governing the same)



Thanks.  If that is to the property, that is a large swath from that spot.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 04, 2017, 03:12:16 pm
Thanks.  If that is to the property, that is a large swath from that spot.

It's 50' just to cross the road.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: saintnicster on April 04, 2017, 03:45:13 pm
Thanks.  If that is to the property, that is a large swath from that spot.
From the all the property lines, yes.  Though because of the already-existing low density, not much would be affected as of right now.

To the south(ish), the 300 is about 3/4ers the way to 8th street.  This might be a problem for The Broadway event center?
East goes to American Passport & ID Photo
West is about halfway through the Coliseum Apartments and the self storage building
North/northeast could be the biggest problem, with the dot landing right in the middle of the southmost sections of the old nordam site.  Though if that actually gets developed, who knows?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Red Arrow on April 04, 2017, 04:55:39 pm
I would love to have a big church filled with people seven days a week as a neighbor.

Not me.  Too many of the members are oblivious to other traffic on the way to get something to eat after being saved for the day.



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Red Arrow on April 04, 2017, 05:01:14 pm
Did the concept of neighborhood church ever apply in the Tulsa area?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Breadburner on April 05, 2017, 05:07:45 am
Did the concept of neighborhood church ever apply in the Tulsa area?


Yes...


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: erfalf on April 05, 2017, 08:09:10 am
Did the concept of neighborhood church ever apply in the Tulsa area?


Didn't the parking crater on the south end of downtown use to be a "neighborhood. With single family homes, even a school?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on April 05, 2017, 08:13:52 am
Didn't the parking crater on the south end of downtown use to be a "neighborhood. With single family homes, even a school?

Yes, you can still see some remnants around 9th & Boulder and 12th & Cheyenne.  It's the part of downtown that "in the future" has the best chance of being a true urban residential neighborhood again.  Blue Dome and Brady will be, and already are, more mixed-use neighborhoods.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: DowntownDan on April 05, 2017, 09:29:06 am
Yes, you can still see some remnants around 9th & Boulder and 12th & Cheyenne.  It's the part of downtown that "in the future" has the best chance of being a true urban residential neighborhood again.  Blue Dome and Brady will be, and already are, more mixed-use neighborhoods.

That would require convincing someone to sell those precious, precious parking lots.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on April 05, 2017, 02:55:33 pm
Yes, you can still see some remnants around 9th & Boulder and 12th & Cheyenne.

As well as at the corner of 11th St. & 11th St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1472564,-95.982626,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR3hhx2eAkoxzWaqvY7b__A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Which happens to be a pretty cool intersection, name as well.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 05, 2017, 03:04:09 pm
As well as at the corner of 11th St. & 11th St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1472564,-95.982626,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR3hhx2eAkoxzWaqvY7b__A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Which happens to be a pretty cool intersection, name as well.

Just west of the resting place of the Spider ride from Bell's.

https://goo.gl/maps/PhYEMCWAgZC2 (https://goo.gl/maps/PhYEMCWAgZC2)


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: BKDotCom on April 05, 2017, 03:28:28 pm
As well as at the corner of 11th St. & 11th St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1472564,-95.982626,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR3hhx2eAkoxzWaqvY7b__A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Which happens to be a pretty cool intersection, name as well.

Never noticed that.   You'd think that little stretch of 11th between the circle and.... 11th could be 10th or Elgin or something.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: BKDotCom on April 10, 2017, 01:34:28 pm
It's still on

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/all-souls-unitarian-church-reaffirms-decision-to-move-downtown/article_f6fe0e91-15b4-5311-ba31-87c3bd4c798b.html

Quote
(All Souls senior minister) said the church hopes to be in its new downtown facility by its 100th anniversary in 2021.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 11, 2017, 09:57:36 am
Did the concept of neighborhood church ever apply in the Tulsa area?



36th and Harvard.  Christ United Methodist was a neighborhood church.



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 17, 2017, 09:34:13 am
It's still on

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/all-souls-unitarian-church-reaffirms-decision-to-move-downtown/article_f6fe0e91-15b4-5311-ba31-87c3bd4c798b.html


That's great and all, but aren't they almost exactly where they were 6 years ago with the intent to move downtown, but no finances or plan? I guess they have a stated goal "by 2021".

And as others have mentioned, it isn't necessarily a positive, more churches downtown, as they increase the need for parking lots only used once per week and bring in few people outside of Sunday (in this case, it sounds like they have a good plan worked out). I'm not sure it's overall positive for Tulsa considering they're moving from a very vibrant midtown area to downtown, leaving their current place empty (will it  be bulldozed and turned into a mansion or sold to a new church?). If this brings any business to downtown, it will be mostly taking that away from Brookside, not creating new revenue for the urban areas of Tulsa. If the Brookside location attracts a big church from South Tulsa or somewhere else, then the move could be a net gain for urban development.

Sure it is better than the empty lots over there and will be more construction money spent in the IDL, but it will create another divide between any developments being planned over there (such as old Nordam site) and the rest of the East Village area so will permanently mar that part of downtown. The main positive I see is that churches often look nice and are typically long time tenants, but most every church downtown is surrounded by parking lots and are major inhibitors to development (no bars/concert halls/etc nearby).


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 18, 2017, 07:09:52 am
All Souls has event programming basically constantly.  Prayer groups, study, kids events, art projects, concerts, etc.  Just today they have:

8:30 AM to 10:30 AM   Parish Notes Assembly   Alliance Room
2:00 PM to 4:00 PM   Tulsa Inclusive Homeschool group - T3   Sponge Room
5:30 PM to 8:30 PM   Shambala Meditation (Tuesdays)   President's Room - 4
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle Childcare   
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Majestic (3rd Tuesday)   Majestic Theater - 122
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - RM 120 (3rd Tuesday)   120 Classroom
7:00 PM to 9:00 PM   New Dimensions Chorale   Children's Choir Room - 130
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Thoreau Lounge (3rd Tuesday)   Thoreau Lounge - 119
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   All Souls' Men's Group - Redefining Masculinity   128 Classroom
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Sienna Project Presentation to All Souls Intl.   Emerson Hall
7:30 PM to 9:00 PM   Counterpoint   Chapel
http://allsoulschurch.org/events

Lots of  small groups heading downtown.  Lots of chances for them to grab a coffee, or a drink, or dinner before or after.  At least based on their public calendars, you don't see that kind of activity at  1st Presbyterian Church on Boston, (https://firstchurchtulsa.org/calendar/), The Cathedral (http://holyfamilycathedralparish.com/parish/), or  Trinity (http://www.trinitytulsa.org/calendar) at 5th and Cinci, or most other downtown churches.  So as far as adding life to an area is concerned, this could be different.

Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning.  ;D


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 07:22:29 am
All Souls has event programming basically constantly.  Prayer groups, study, kids events, art projects, concerts, etc.  Just today they have:

8:30 AM to 10:30 AM   Parish Notes Assembly   Alliance Room
2:00 PM to 4:00 PM   Tulsa Inclusive Homeschool group - T3   Sponge Room
5:30 PM to 8:30 PM   Shambala Meditation (Tuesdays)   President's Room - 4
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle Childcare   
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Majestic (3rd Tuesday)   Majestic Theater - 122
6:00 PM to 7:30 PM   Soulful Circle - RM 120 (3rd Tuesday)   120 Classroom
7:00 PM to 9:00 PM   New Dimensions Chorale   Children's Choir Room - 130
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Soulful Circle - Thoreau Lounge (3rd Tuesday)   Thoreau Lounge - 119
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   All Souls' Men's Group - Redefining Masculinity   128 Classroom
7:00 PM to 8:30 PM   Sienna Project Presentation to All Souls Intl.   Emerson Hall
7:30 PM to 9:00 PM   Counterpoint   Chapel
http://allsoulschurch.org/events

Lots of  small groups heading downtown.  Lots of chances for them to grab a coffee, or a drink, or dinner before or after.  At least based on their public calendars, you don't see that kind of activity at  1st Presbyterian Church on Boston, (https://firstchurchtulsa.org/calendar/), The Cathedral (http://holyfamilycathedralparish.com/parish/), or  Trinity (http://www.trinitytulsa.org/calendar) at 5th and Cinci, or most other downtown churches.  So as far as adding life to an area is concerned, this could be different.

Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning.  ;D

There's also Channing Day School.

The church property also includes many of the houses that surround the church.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on April 18, 2017, 09:45:52 am
It would be a shame to see the church torn down but I could see it happening for infill housing on that lot.  All of those areas around the Gathering Place will only continue to go up in value.  I wish I already owned real estate in Maple Ridge and West Brookside.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: rebound on April 18, 2017, 11:13:53 am
It would be a shame to see the church torn down but I could see it happening for infill housing on that lot.  All of those areas around the Gathering Place will only continue to go up in value.  I wish I already owned real estate in Maple Ridge and West Brookside.

I live a couple of blocks from the gathering place.  I moved in a little over two years ago, and already the prices for the fixer-uppers were starting to climb hard.   Right now, anything under about $400K is gone in a matter of days, and the true rebuilds don't even go on the market.  There is a house right next door to me that is not even officially on the market, but they do have a "coming soon" sign out, and the amount of traffic checking it out is amazing.  I'm North of 31st, but the neighborhoods from 31st-41st between Peoria and Riverside have probably seen the highest rise in home value.   I ride/run down that way, and the last couple of years have been a transformation.  Really impressive what is going on.     


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 11:24:44 am
I live a couple of blocks from the gathering place.  I moved in a little over two years ago, and already the prices for the fixer-uppers were starting to climb hard.   Right now, anything under about $400K is gone in a matter of days, and the true rebuilds don't even go on the market.  There is a house right next door to me that is not even officially on the market, but they do have a "coming soon" sign out, and the amount of traffic checking it out is amazing.  I'm North of 31st, but the neighborhoods from 31st-41st between Peoria and Riverside have probably seen the highest rise in home value.   I ride/run down that way, and the last couple of years have been a transformation.  Really impressive what is going on.     
\

But the TW comments say it's going to be filled with homeless people...


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: rebound on April 18, 2017, 12:03:40 pm
But the TW comments say it's going to be filled with homeless people...

The Gathering Place itself?  Actually, that is a valid concern.   It's small enough that I don't think there is a real worry about them "setting up camps" and such, but I'm sure there will be some issues.  As has been previously discussed on here, the area of River Parks North from the Blue Rose is a problem area.  Just yesterday my wife was out for a lunch bike ride, and was commenting that it must be the warmer weather or something, but it was packed up there with homeless yesterday.

If the city wants this to work, they are going to have to do what NYC does in Central Park, and what Philly does in their  museum and parks areas, and move them out.  (And before anybody jumps on me here, I do in fact have compassion for the homeless and am all about helping them out.  Let's put money into it and do it right. But allowing them to live in our public spaces in not helping them, or us.)


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 12:14:47 pm
The Gathering Place itself?  Actually, that is a valid concern.   It's small enough that I don't think there is a real worry about them "setting up camps" and such, but I'm sure there will be some issues.  As has been previously discussed on here, the area of River Parks North from the Blue Rose is a problem area.  Just yesterday my wife was out for a lunch bike ride, and was commenting that it must be the warmer weather or something, but it was packed up there with homeless yesterday.

If the city wants this to work, they are going to have to do what NYC does in Central Park, and what Philly does in their  museum and parks areas, and move them out.  (And before anybody jumps on me here, I do in fact have compassion for the homeless and am all about helping them out.  Let's put money into it and do it right. But allowing them to live in our public spaces in not helping them, or us.)


I agree. Personally, Iím for housing the chronically homeless in judgement free housing near services. If they accept help and get better and go on their own great. Even if they never get ďbetterĒ, they are safer off the streets and itís cheaper to keep them off the streets in the long run with less medical emergencies and less law enforcement problems.

It saves money and is more humane, shocking I know.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 18, 2017, 03:09:11 pm

I agree. Personally, Iím for housing the chronically homeless in judgement free housing near services. If they accept help and get better and go on their own great. Even if they never get ďbetterĒ, they are safer off the streets and itís cheaper to keep them off the streets in the long run with less medical emergencies and less law enforcement problems.

It saves money and is more humane, shocking I know.


Better Box Project in Tulsa (Associated with Denver House) is working on this:
https://mhat.secure.force.com/betterboxproject2014?id=a20A000000BrR84 (https://mhat.secure.force.com/betterboxproject2014?id=a20A000000BrR84)

I really hope judgement free housing takes off. Tulsans donate enough to house all of the chronically homeless. Most of the time, after they have a home, they end up getting a job AND getting clean. Imagine what that could do to our city? We have 700 which is relatively low, but that's potentially 500+ contributing and being a part of society (along with reducing crime/medical needs plus paying bills and boosting the economy).


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 18, 2017, 03:27:46 pm


Also, while I certainly understand your point that churches are generally not a constant hive of activity, I think that could apply to a lot of different things.  A significant office building only brings life from 9-5.  An apartment complex sits empty all day.  A bar is an empty shell until 9 pm and empty again at 2AM. It takes a wide range of things to make an area see vibrant, including churches.  Trading an empty lot for a vibrant church that attracts the demographic that seems to be moving downtown, while acknowledging it isn't the development news of the century - I will still put it in the overall "W" column.

On their old location- it could attract a new church.  It could attract a large non profit.  It could attract a very progressive office I suppose.  But you are probably right, it will likely be raised for housing because it is a great location (Brookside address, close to the new park, close to everything really).  I think you could fit 15-20 of the standard lots in the area, or 20-30 of the "infill subdivision" type of lots, or 3-6 of the "big boy lots."   I'd prefer density, but in any of those scenarios Tulsa picks up more residents.  So we are trading a church for more houses in midtown... increasing the tax base to offset the lost tax revenue on an empty lot downtown I guess.  Another "W". 

I'm all sorts of positive this morning.  ;D

That is good they have stuff throughout the week (as do many churches), but I wonder how many people it brings in vs how large it will be. I was generalizing as most churches around downtown look pretty empty except on Sundays and some Wednesday nights.

I don't agree about the comparison with office buildings/bars/apartments. Churches are massive footprints and often kill the walkability around them. That alone ends the fair comparison. Apartments are usually 2nd floor or above; Smartly-developed ones have retail on ground level and even if they don't, they still increase density and are critical part of an urban community 7 days a week. Office Buildings are similar (their employees eat at the local food places and add density most every day). Bars are essential to bringing in people and function as community hangouts day to day and are part of what make an area "walkable". Churches would be great for urban development if they could do ground-floor retail and have housing and have large numbers of people there day to day. There are some churches that do that and maybe All Souls is as good as it gets.

You are right it is much better than a parking lot so we should rejoice in 5 years when they might break ground :D
I hope it ends up a net-benefit to Tulsa.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 18, 2017, 03:32:02 pm
I am not the best judge, but every event I have been to at All Souls is packed. I have never seen less than forty cars in the parking lot during the day and twice that many for the after work stuff.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Conan71 on April 18, 2017, 05:18:08 pm
I am not the best judge, but every event I have been to at All Souls is packed. I have never seen less than forty cars in the parking lot during the day and twice that many for the after work stuff.

Iíve been to several weekday evening programs at All Souls over the past few years ranging from musical entertainment they were producing to an event on a Crow Creek clean up.  Like Michael, I observed they were well attended. I always ended up having a drink and dinner on Brookside afterwards and Iím pretty certain I was not alone in that.  Itís a draw.  All Souls is also a bit different from your average church in the Tulsa area.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 19, 2017, 08:16:00 am
Iíve been to several weekday evening programs at All Souls over the past few years ranging from musical entertainment they were producing to an event on a Crow Creek clean up.  Like Michael, I observed they were well attended. I always ended up having a drink and dinner on Brookside afterwards and Iím pretty certain I was not alone in that.  Itís a draw.  All Souls is also a bit different from your average church in the Tulsa area.

Good to hear! Sounds like it should be a good addition to downtown then.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 10:47:34 am

I really hope judgement free housing takes off. Tulsans donate enough to house all of the chronically homeless. Most of the time, after they have a home, they end up getting a job AND getting clean. Imagine what that could do to our city? We have 700 which is relatively low, but that's potentially 500+ contributing and being a part of society (along with reducing crime/medical needs plus paying bills and boosting the economy).



As for contributing, then you lose the economic activity based on all the criminal/medical needs.  Fewer crimes mean reduced court system activity.  Reduced police enforcement needs.  Reduced fire department requirements to fight fires in abandoned buildings.  Less insurance company business activity.  Less replacement purchasing activity.  Fewer alarm/protection economic activities.  And probably dozens of other impacts I haven't thought of just off the top of my head.  If you put these people in stable housing and get them making a minimum wage type job, all that goes away and the net economic activity would likely be reduced enough to be noticed on every "screen".  This could put thousands of people out of work and take millions out of the economy...that's why we still have the "war on drugs" as economic stimulus plan...





Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: erfalf on April 19, 2017, 11:06:40 am

As for contributing, then you lose the economic activity based on all the criminal/medical needs.  Fewer crimes mean reduced court system activity.  Reduced police enforcement needs.  Reduced fire department requirements to fight fires in abandoned buildings.  Less insurance company business activity.  Less replacement purchasing activity.  Fewer alarm/protection economic activities.  And probably dozens of other impacts I haven't thought of just off the top of my head.  If you put these people in stable housing and get them making a minimum wage type job, all that goes away and the net economic activity would likely be reduced enough to be noticed on every "screen".  This could put thousands of people out of work and take millions out of the economy...that's why we still have the "war on drugs" as economic stimulus plan...





The Broken Window Fallocy


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 02:15:26 pm
The Broken Window Fallocy


Yes!!  You DO understand!!  And yet, still a Trumpy...   And still the entire basis for our "war on drugs" for the last 100 years!

Bureaucracies are living entities.  And all living entities have 2 goals - survive and grow.  If one has a plan to truly eliminate a problem that would reduce the flow of money around that problem, it will never be solved.  A VERY LARGE portion of our law enforcement efforts is one of those.   

Medical treatment is another - why would anyone actually ever cure a problem that can provide an ongoing revenue stream indefinitely.  Never cure in days/weeks/months what you can sell treatments for months/years/decades.  Well, except maybe for certain important people - did you notice how Jimmy Carter went from stage 4 cancer - his body riddled through - to cancer free in just a few months?

Tin horn dictators - take one out on occasion and one can always drum up support to go after the next newly demonized one or group.  Increase military spending - put people into much more conservative postures than they normally would due to the FUD...fear, uncertainty, doubt - it's the entire movement of money stream of consciousness.

Or illegal aliens - simple...no, actually a trivial solution to the so-called "problem".  If you really believe it is a problem!  Which it isn't really.  But if you apply the simple cure, there is no movement of money, so no opportunity for enrichment.



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Moderator on April 19, 2017, 03:09:48 pm
Please try to refrain from bringing national politics into development threads.  Certain aspect of national politics will inevitably affect the discussion, but lets hope sound judgment can be used to prevent the development section from descending into pure politics.  Please, we have an entire section for politics.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 20, 2017, 07:16:02 am
I'm actually a fan of the broken window theory. 

I see it in action.  If its OK for my neighbor to park in the lawn, then I can too.  If there are several people doing it, I shouldn't bother to talk to them about it.  My grass hasn't been mowed in a week, but what the hell... the guy down the street hasn't mowed it in a month.  Look there's already some trash and shopping carts sitting in the street, so who cares if I throw my couch on the curb too? Hell, this neighborhood already looks pretty run down, no ones going to notice if I bust out this street light or graffiti this stop sign.  Man, this neighborhood looks like crap - no one is going to bother calling the police if we . . .

There's a line somewhere that worrying about "broken windows" becomes a police state, but I think the theory itself is sound.  I don't think less affluent neighborhoods are more prone to crime and vandalism simply because the residents have less money. I think its part of a slide, when lowlifes think no one cares they get emboldened.

Life in a neighborhood can certainly help. More people in their front yards, talking their dogs, or their kids biking around the block.  Or, in the case of a downtown neighborhood, a place that draws people in at various times of the day.  Like maybe an active church.

Poof! Just like that, thread back on topic.   :)


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on April 20, 2017, 07:25:27 am
Actually, c_f, you're talking about the broken window theory from criminology. Erfalf was talking about Bastiat's fallacy of the broken window, an insight into economics. A common mistake, but they're totally different things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 20, 2017, 07:39:27 am
I will have to correct my ignorance on that.  I was just so dang excited to get the topic back on track.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 08:15:23 am
I will have to correct my ignorance on that.  I was just so dang excited to get the topic back on track.


What??

Back on track??


Well, I for one am looking forward to the move downtown just to see what it can bring to the area - kinda bleak right now... 


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 08:48:22 am
As an outsider with no vested interest other than really liking the look of current Church building - I have looked around the web site and re-read this thread and still don't have a clear idea of exactly why they want to move?   Is it just a parking motivation?  How is a downtown location going to improve anything about their culture??   Seems to me like they are going from a dynamic, human oriented area to a kind of cultural "desert"...well maybe not desert, but a step away from the more direct human contact they would seem to have in the middle of the neighborhood...



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: MostSeriousness on April 20, 2017, 09:13:57 am
From my understanding, they are very limited in their current location re: zoning/ordinances. Whether that includes renovations, expansion/additions, construction, etc.

Downtown currently has no overlay, so they have free reign for now


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 09:48:01 am
From my understanding, they are very limited in their current location re: zoning/ordinances. Whether that includes renovations, expansion/additions, construction, etc.

Downtown currently has no overlay, so they have free reign for now


I can't imagine that being a problem for a church - look at what all the mega-churches have done in the Tulsa and surrounding areas...


If that is the case, then what/who would be blocking them?   I could see how evangelical extremist right wingers might look at Unitarians as less of a church than theirs - they have different beliefs from many evangelicals - but I see them pretty much the opposite of that - especially the thought they try to be the church OF Jesus rather than a church ABOUT Jesus!   To me, that is a "Salvation Army" type thought that I like a lot.


I really hope there is no such political component to this decision to move...given Oklahoma's past, I am not optimistic.


Which puts my thoughts back down the Bastiat rabbit hole - opportunity costs of new building versus upgrades to old bldg, parking, etc...



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: rebound on April 20, 2017, 10:05:26 am
They are hemmed in.   I live very close in behind them.   For all major events, including standard Sunday services, people have to park all around in the surrounding neighborhood, and have to search spots, etc.    I don't think there is any local resistance to the church, but there are capacity issues.

Also,  I can see how they might think that taking their church downtown might help spread the word and grow.   They are not a regular church, and have had recent services such as "Easter for Humanists" and such.  An eclectic local populace could be a great thing for them.   My neighbor attends there, I'll ask her what her thoughts are.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: swake on April 20, 2017, 10:20:53 am
They are hemmed in.   I live very close in behind them.   For all major events, including standard Sunday services, people have to park all around in the surrounding neighborhood, and have to search spots, etc.    I don't think there is any local resistance to the church, but there are capacity issues.

Also,  I can see how they might think that taking their church downtown might help spread the word and grow.   They are not a regular church, and have had recent services such as "Easter for Humanists" and such.  An eclectic local populace could be a great thing for them.   My neighbor attends there, I'll ask her what her thoughts are.

There have been issues with the neighborhood, specifically when it comes to tearing down houses to expand the church.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: rebound on April 20, 2017, 10:24:28 am
There have been issues with the neighborhood, specifically when it comes to tearing down houses to expand the church.

Ah, well, there you go.  Hence my "hemmed in" comment.  That is understandable.  I also would not support taking out existing homes to expand the church.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 10:41:25 am
Ah, well, there you go.  Hence my "hemmed in" comment.  That is understandable.  I also would not support taking out existing homes to expand the church.


Tough call.   Seems like the 6 houses on their west side would be a modest loss to the neighborhood, if the people who own them were willing to sell.  Would provide quite a bit of room for expansion, but if they are growing very fast, it would only be a stopgap.  I hope they don't go all "mega-churchy"....they seem to be a couple thousand strong now. That is getting big!


Rampant destruction of the neighborhood like Broken Arrow is doing to their old town area would be a bad thing!

 



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: rebound on April 20, 2017, 11:20:58 am

Tough call.   Seems like the 6 houses on their west side would be a modest loss to the neighborhood, if the people who own them were willing to sell.  Would provide quite a bit of room for expansion, but if they are growing very fast, it would only be a stopgap.  I hope they don't go all "mega-churchy"....they seem to be a couple thousand strong now. That is getting big!

Rampant destruction of the neighborhood like Broken Arrow is doing to their old town area would be a bad thing!

Interesting.   Just had a quick look at those six houses.  the church already owns five of the six.   That last guy may be a hold-out?


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 12:25:24 pm
Interesting.   Just had a quick look at those six houses.  the church already owns five of the six.   That last guy may be a hold-out?



I would hope they are not aggressively pushing him to sell - being nice would seem to be more their style. 

And if I were running the show, I would not go ahead and blast the other houses around him either, thereby destroying his neighborhood....  Wait until he or his heirs are ready/willing to sell.



Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2017, 02:54:45 pm

I would hope they are not aggressively pushing him to sell - being nice would seem to be more their style. 

And if I were running the show, I would not go ahead and blast the other houses around him either, thereby destroying his neighborhood....  Wait until he or his heirs are ready/willing to sell.


If they're moving downtown, that might indicate they've given up on expanding where they're at. However, who knows what would happen if they sell the church.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2017, 02:59:00 pm
It would be a shame to see the church torn down but I could see it happening for infill housing on that lot.  All of those areas around the Gathering Place will only continue to go up in value.  I wish I already owned real estate in Maple Ridge and West Brookside.

It's a very nice looking church but without a buyer, that could be 16+ lots in a prime location by Brookside and the Gathering Place that could likely get ~$200k/lot or more (so $3.2 million excluding the 5 extra houses they own). The tax records say it is worth $2.8 million, but might be much larger and more valuable than what it says with addons/expansions.

It might be a toss up for them between demolishing and parting lots or selling the church to another church that might run into the same issues down the line. I'm sure the neighbors would prefer it be demolished and turned into housing. If houses similar to new ones going in for the neighborhood are built, that would add about $141,000/year in taxes (~$9.4 million taxable value including land). Big gain for Tulsa and the area schools.

Or some rich person could buy it and convert it into a massive house! I bet a creative architect could make it work. People have converted old churches to homes all over the world and it can look brilliant when done well.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on April 20, 2017, 03:33:51 pm
It's a very nice looking church but without a buyer, that could be 16+ lots in a prime location by Brookside and the Gathering Place that could likely get ~$200k/lot or more (so $3.2 million excluding the 5 extra houses they own). The tax records say it is worth $2.8 million, but might be much larger and more valuable than what it says with addons/expansions.

It might be a toss up for them between demolishing and parting lots or selling the church to another church that might run into the same issues down the line. I'm sure the neighbors would prefer it be demolished and turned into housing. If houses similar to new ones going in for the neighborhood are built, that would add about $141,000/year in taxes (~$9.4 million taxable value including land). Big gain for Tulsa and the area schools.

Or some rich person could buy it and convert it into a massive house! I bet a creative architect could make it work. People have converted old churches to homes all over the world and it can look brilliant when done well.

I could see that happening.  Similar to what they're doing at 28th & Peoria and the old Barnard Elem. site. 


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: onehandoneheart on September 24, 2018, 04:33:55 pm
All Souls recently unveiled the concept for their new downtown church in a video presentation to congregants. Along with the video release, they've formally launched a capital campaign to raise funds for the construction of the new building, with the hope that it will be completed in time to celebrate the church's centennial in 2021.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf0gH_ZZBk0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf0gH_ZZBk0)

I haven't been able to find any static concept images to include. There was a floor plan on display on the day of the presentation but I didn't manage to get any photos of it.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on September 25, 2018, 08:32:47 am
Cool, I was wondering about this project.  Here are some snaps from the video:

The corner of 6th & Frankfort
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124119146451/medium/1537885343/enhance)

6th Street frontage from Kenosha to Frankfort
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124119156654/medium/1537885801/enhance)

Looking west down 6th
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124119146353/medium/1537885339/enhance)

At night at 7th & Kenosha, it definitely will enhance that entrance into downtown
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/022046773943/media/124119146359/medium/1537885339/enhance)


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: BKDotCom on September 25, 2018, 01:21:53 pm
The wall gives a "compound" vibe


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on September 25, 2018, 02:30:23 pm
The wall gives a "compound" vibe

I was thinking the same thing, especially along 6th.  Some metal railings on top of the retaining walls would help.  I guess they have to account for the grade change from Frankfort to Kenosha.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 26, 2018, 10:52:50 am
Cool, I was wondering about this project.  Here are some snaps from the video:

At night at 7th & Kenosha, it definitely will enhance that entrance into downtown


It looks nice overall. As usual, a church will be a bit of a block-killer for pedestrian friendly or lively, but much better than a parking lot. This looks like a very expensive and thus long-term vision. With the turtle's pace of development in the hands of a few big-money developers, I'd be happy with just about anything over all the empty lots.

They can make quite a bit if they sell of their current land to the right developer to turn into mansion lots. Lots are worth around $200k near the old church so they should be able to get several million from their existing properties.


Title: Re: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa
Post by: SXSW on September 26, 2018, 01:54:46 pm
It looks nice overall. As usual, a church will be a bit of a block-killer for pedestrian friendly or lively, but much better than a parking lot. This looks like a very expensive and thus long-term vision. With the turtle's pace of development in the hands of a few big-money developers, I'd be happy with just about anything over all the empty lots.

They can make quite a bit if they sell of their current land to the right developer to turn into mansion lots. Lots are worth around $200k near the old church so they should be able to get several million from their existing properties.

I wonder if selling off the land on Peoria is part of the capital stack for this project?  It definitely makes sense and would be a very desirable infill housing site in Maple Ridge.