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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: Tulsasaurus Rex on March 16, 2017, 09:27:46 am



Title: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on March 16, 2017, 09:27:46 am
http://www.newson6.com/story/34727125/final-touches-being-put-on-downtown-tulsa-bike-lanes


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 16, 2017, 12:47:37 pm

Better than nothing..??



Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: PonderInc on March 27, 2017, 10:36:51 am
These bike lanes are actually a big deal for Tulsa, because they represent our first-ever protected bike lanes.  A protected bike lane means that there is a physical barrier between the bike lane and the auto traffic.  In this case, the streets have been striped so that the parallel parking for cars is between the bikes and the street traffic.  If this were done in the heart of downtown (as recommended by Jeff Speck's walkability study) there would actually be plenty of cars to form the barrier.  In the current location it looks pretty weird b/c nobody ever parks up there on Detroit and MLK.

Still, this is a very affordable way to get protected bike lanes b/c it's done with paint and the normal needs of parked cars.  It will take a while for people to get used to parallel parking without using the curb to determine when they've gone far enough.  ("OK, you're on the sidewalk, now go forward and straighten it out!") (Watching suburbanites park downtown drives me crazy.)

But the cost of building curbs or installing concrete barriers to create protected bike lanes makes them too expensive for Tulsa right now.  This is a great solution that is used all over the world, so I'm excited to see this prototype.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: MostSeriousness on March 27, 2017, 12:30:02 pm
Based on Jeff Speck's event last week, it's my understanding that the plan is to continue the bike lanes further down the streets. So yeah, I think it will be great for the lanes


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Weatherdemon on April 10, 2017, 02:53:11 pm
Interesting that the banes are inside the parking lanes by the curb, which is fine, then angle NW and cross out over the right turn lane that cars use to get on the highway.

That doesn't seem to be the safest choice to make there.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Weatherdemon on April 20, 2017, 07:51:30 am
Yea...
They need to change color schemes besides just have the green for bike lane crossing at a terrible location.

Every day this week and three times last week as I was leaving work on Detroit I saw people driving down the parking lane or all the way over in the bike line.
People coming up to 244 to turn right onto the highway have no clue pancakes is going on.

I sure as hell wouldn't use those green bike areas under the bridge to cross traffic and feel safe as a biker


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 20, 2017, 08:46:23 am
My wife and I went out and road all the new bike lanes last week, road them again yesterday.  Not because they are currently very practical, but to see how well they worked and to see what drivers reactions were.  Also worth noting that I'm in that area on foot at least 3 times a week in addition to biking through a couple times a week.

I liked them.  I liked them a lot and would struggle to come up with something better.

Generally, drivers have quickly figured out the bike lanes and parking areas.  Like any paint change (see back in angled parking, one way streets, or any re stripping ever) , some will be slower to adapt than others.  So there have been a few "oops" moments, but no more than the number of people I see accidentally turning the wrong way down a one way.  And, luckily, given the way the lanes are done, the bikers are to the curb anyway. Even if there were no parked cars it would still be as safe as no bike-lane should someone choose to drive on the parking spaces.

I thought the way the lanes crossed under the freeway and the turn lanes was weird also.  But it worked well.  At some points the bikes have to cross right turning traffic - unless we are adding cycling overpasses there isn't a way to avoid it.  The lanes cut over to the left and allow right turning traffic to pull to the curb a few car lengths before the actual turn.  By doing so, cars that are waiting to turn right shouldn't see a cyclist come up behind them as they turn and both know ahead of time that the traffic crosses paths.  It  seemed to work well.

I like the green.  It stands out.  White means lanes you can cross.  Yellow is for lines you shouldn't cross. Blue is for handicap.  Red is a fire lane.  Green is something different.

We also road the new bike lane on 3rd several times.  Its also great, except it is less than a mile long.  The entire length of 3rd from TU to downtown is a "share the road" and I've never seen it busy enough to justify 4 lanes of traffic and have seen no issues with the current 3 lane layout.  I've also haven't had many issues riding it as a share the road, but that isn't most cyclists preference (I've never seen parents with kids on a share the road.  Its almost always spandex jockeys).  I hope they continue to expand that bike lane.


LINK THEM UP!

I hope they start linking all these up to something meaningful.  Currently there is a bike lane from 11th almost to 3rd on Delware (past TU), then a few miles of no bike lane on 3rd, followed by almost a mile of bike lane, then no bike lane to downtown as you continue past the Midland valley trail at 444 (IDL eastern loop), no bike lane as you follow the share the road north on Greenwood...

To the north there is a half-butted bike lane along Greenwood to OSU Tulsa (a 3rd foot curb lane with no space for separation from traffic) to Pine and the Osage Trail (great trail by, unfortunately, I have recently heard of incidents of cyclists having issues).

If you turn west on Archer there is no bike lane until you hit a half-butt lane at Denver (> 3 foot curb lane no space for separation) which ends before you get ot the Katy Trail.

The new bike lanes don't hook up with any other bike trails or even share the road lanes and don't lead anywhere.  You can basically go from Brady and Detroit, to John Hope Franklin (OSU Road), then into OSU's campus, or west to Boston, and to KOTV (stops on the other side of the street from "no riding bikes in our park" Guthrie Green).

I snapped a few photos to give a basic idea to anyone who hasn't seen them.  Clearly could be improved on the photography department.  :D

(http://i.imgur.com/qtoqz70l.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/MbCRq7xl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/wQifJVIl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/3mN8GYPl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/dKwE2mWl.jpg)



Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 08:55:35 am
Love the ideas!  Great to see at least some good thought and action starting on this topic.  Now, if we just had enough education system left to start educating people from early age, there might be hope for the state in a generation or two!!



Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: MostSeriousness on April 20, 2017, 09:16:42 am
Seeing the Jeff Speck study, there are definitely going to be more bike lanes in the future. I think the city was already working on those lanes anyway, which would explain why they chose that part of downtown to kick off the bike lanes (instead of say 3, 6 or boston presumably)


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: SXSW on April 20, 2017, 09:47:32 am
I would like to see the entire lanes painted green someday, especially when they are linked together better.  Some kind of permanent barrier would also be nice to have in the future, and for now just those plastic stick-thingy's (technical term) would be good to keep cars out of the bike lane in areas where there aren't as many parked cars.  This is what we should aspire to have along Detroit and Cincinnati through downtown:
(http://www.bikesgv.org/uploads/1/0/3/4/10345694/1772239.jpg)

My dream bike lane scenario for downtown would be to somehow link up these protected lanes along Detroit/Cincinnati with the Midland Valley Trail via the Cincinnati flyover.  It looks like there is almost enough of a shoulder to have a protected bike lane on that flyover that could easily connect up with both the trail and the downtown bike lanes.  How awesome would that be to have that direct connection to the MV Trail and Gathering Place from downtown?



Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Weatherdemon on April 20, 2017, 01:29:24 pm
I would like to see the entire lanes painted green someday, especially when they are linked together better.  Some kind of permanent barrier would also be nice to have in the future, and for now just those plastic stick-thingy's (technical term) would be good to keep cars out of the bike lane in areas where there aren't as many parked cars.  This is what we should aspire to have along Detroit and Cincinnati through downtown:
(http://www.bikesgv.org/uploads/1/0/3/4/10345694/1772239.jpg)

My dream bike lane scenario for downtown would be to somehow link up these protected lanes along Detroit/Cincinnati with the Midland Valley Trail via the Cincinnati flyover.  It looks like there is almost enough of a shoulder to have a protected bike lane on that flyover that could easily connect up with both the trail and the downtown bike lanes.  How awesome would that be to have that direct connection to the MV Trail and Gathering Place from downtown?



The bike lane being at least bordered in green would be nice.

And, it doesn't seem the test rides haven't been done without the cones, after a Driller games, or from 4-6PM.

I'm not arguing against the lanes, they just don't seem obvious or easy to understand for someone who doesn't ride a bicycle.
Learning the paint is one thing for regular workers downtown but what about the thousands of visitors? Hell, someone is driving the wrong way on 1st street every day.

Seems like an IT solution designed for IT folks to be rolled out to the general public.
Yea, the IT dept gets it but the rest of the company is pancakes and not using it right or at all.



Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Red Arrow on April 20, 2017, 06:10:33 pm
I would like to see the entire lanes painted green someday,

Is there any problem with the green paint being slippery when wet, compared to unpainted pavement?


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 21, 2017, 07:39:41 am
...it doesn't seem the test rides haven't been done without the cones, after a Driller games, or from 4-6PM.

I'm not arguing against the lanes, they just don't seem obvious or easy to understand for someone who doesn't ride a bicycle...

Actually, both times I have ridden them was between 4 and 6 and most recently with the cones gone. Most of those photos are between 4:30 and 5:30 on a Tuesday.  The other time we road them was between 5:30 and 6:30 on a Wednesday.   Then again, those are commuter times, so people drive the same route every day and after a few weeks of paint crews and cones, they probably have a good idea of what's going on.

I have not ridden them during a first Friday or drillers game, but I did park in one of the spaces for each.  Also this Sunday for the Guthrie Green World Music Festival (or whatever it is called).  I saw some hesitant drivers, but everyone figured it out.  Hesitant drivers are actually safer drivers anyway.  The beauty of the system is that as things get busy, the bike lane is more protected by the parking.  And even if when there is an utterly clueless soul, the biker lane is still safer than it would be with the bike lane outside the parked cars (it is still protected from most people and from opening doors).

I certainly understand how it could be confusing for drivers.  But if you have seen it before, if there is a single car parked in the spaces, or a driver slows down enough to look at the markings and signs - it is easily figured out.  Other than spending loads of money putting in curb lanes and landscaping, I'm not sure how it could be significantly improved.  That could just be my lack of creativity, and I'd be happy to hear suggestions!


Is there any problem with the green paint being slippery when wet, compared to unpainted pavement?

Almost any paint is more slippery than unpainted pavement.   Dry paint is somewhat of a hazard when cornering, road markings with water in a corner is certainly a hazard. Here are two of the world best cyclists being tossed to the ground from a wet road line just last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7bacvGYnpo

A lot of paint isn't good for things on two wheels, there's probably some special grippy paint that sheds water... for a price.  Also, my guess is too much green paint actually detracts from its effectiveness, white paint is more visible, and painting the entire surface costs more money and requires more maintenance.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: MostSeriousness on April 21, 2017, 08:34:30 am
I think the big thing that will need to be emphasized is that the lanes still adhere to traffic flow. There's a lot of online comments about the dangers of the intersection, but even with their own lane, cyclists still should be expected to stop at the intersection where 244 offramp is.

I thought I remember seeing something about the City looking at bike street signal crossings at some point, but can't find word of it anywhere


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 21, 2017, 08:49:04 am
I think the big thing that will need to be emphasized is that the lanes still adhere to traffic flow. There's a lot of online comments about the dangers of the intersection, but even with their own lane, cyclists still should be expected to stop at the intersection where 244 offramp is.

Cyclists should always be expected to follow traffic signals. If there is a red light, they stop. If the light is green, they go.  Or is the suggestion that cyclists should be require to stop at a green light too?


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: MostSeriousness on April 21, 2017, 08:53:54 am
I mean it as a sort of education for drivers. It should ease some of the fear that a constant flow of cyclists will be going through lanes, when in actuality they'll adhere to traffic flow as well.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: Weatherdemon on April 25, 2017, 08:13:09 am
My issue isn't the intersection but where the bike lane comes out from behind(east) the parking lane and crosses the R turn lane.
I can't find a picture of that crossover anywhere.

I don't ride so if you all feel safe then cool.

I wouldn't like my kids riding under 244 with that config though.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 25, 2017, 08:25:49 am
My issue isn't the intersection but where the bike lane comes out from behind(east) the parking lane and crosses the R turn lane.
I can't find a picture of that crossover anywhere.

I don't ride so if you all feel safe then cool.

I wouldn't like my kids riding under 244 with that config though.

Makes sense.  But at some point the bikes and the right turning vehicles will cross.  All this is supposed to do is make it so that crossing takes place before the intersection, I think the idea is to eliminate as much conflict as possible at the intersection, since there is a lot going on there already, as well as allow right turning cars (and bikes) to sit off to the side and be passed if they have to wait to turn.

As a cyclist, the jog away from the curb told me "hey, you better look behind you and make sure no one is going to squish you since you are crossing a traffic lane."  You are definitely going from a more protected to a less protected area.   For younger kids it would certainly be an area of concern - perhaps they would have to resort to the pedestrian mode to cross at a signal at that point? I just can't think of a way to avoid it bikes and cars crossing at some point, so making it very clear doesn't bother me.  And I do think its better than the old solution of "just mix the traffic together and restart the bike lane on the other side of the intersection."


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: sauerkraut on May 04, 2017, 12:04:59 pm
None the less bike lanes or not, the bottom line is bikes and cars don't mix. We need more trails that are free of motorized vehicles and street crossings. They are spending $24 Million dollars for a new Trail bridge across the river when the old one is fine, why not use that money for expanding our trail system instead?


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: swake on May 04, 2017, 01:32:40 pm
None the less bike lanes or not, the bottom line is bikes and cars don't mix. We need more trails that are free of motorized vehicles and street crossings. They are spending $24 Million dollars for a new Trail bridge across the river when the old one is fine, why not use that money for expanding our trail system instead?

Because the voters in the city of Tulsa voted for the bridge? Just a thought.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2017, 02:10:21 pm
Because the voters in the city of Tulsa voted for the bridge? Just a thought.


Careful.... trying to think/interact logically with cabbage ain't gonna work for ya...!


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: johrasephoenix on May 04, 2017, 06:45:09 pm
Bikes and cars actually mix fine as long as traffic is less than 25mph.  I regularly rode as a bike commuter in heavy Boston and Chicago traffic and never really felt unsafe.  That is very different than riding in light traffic on Peoria, much less my one attempt on 71st street, where my life felt in imminent danger of a horrible end.  Same when I lived in Austin - Texas drivers looked like they would take great satisfaction in running over bikers.


Title: Re: Protected bike lanes coming to downtown
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 08, 2017, 07:20:36 am
They are spending $24 Million dollars for a new Trail bridge across the river when the old one is fine, why not use that money for expanding our trail system instead?

If by "just fine" you mean "structurally deficient," then the engineers agree with you:

Quote
Engineers did an assessment of the century-old bridge recently and determined that rotting wood and eroding piers took rehabilitation off the table, officials said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/idea-phase-for-pedestrian-bridge-closes-committee-combing-through-residents/article_aa3c7fdc-d499-506c-b32c-a48f9a24f3dc.html

If you have a more recent engineering  study, I agree.  Share it with the city so we can save $20mil.