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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: BKDotCom on March 09, 2017, 10:49:51 am



Title: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 09, 2017, 10:49:51 am
Sears at 21st & Yale.
Macy's at the Promenade Mall  
Eastland Toy's-R-Us (who knew that was even still open)
JCPenny's is closing 140 stores (https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2017/03/08/jcpenney-is-shuttering-140-locations-see-if-your-store-is-at/21876449/) (Promenade?...  Tulsa isn't among the 40 at greatest risk list)
Staples is closing 70 stores (http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/09/news/companies/staples-store-closings/index.html) (Harvard loc?)

March 14th:  Gordman's announces it's closing all stores (http://www.newson6.com/story/34799471/gordmans-declares-bankruptcy-closing-all-stores)

May 5:  Gander Mtn closes at "The Walk @ Tulsa Hills (http://www.fox23.com/news/gander-mountain-closes-tulsa-hills-store/519873796)

Now, more than ever, we need smart infill over new / sprawl.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: SXSW on March 09, 2017, 11:35:58 am
Exactly why the REI deal at Helmerich Park is such a failure.  Why sell our parkland when there are plenty of better retail locations all over the city, with more to come as big box stores continue to close.



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Townsend on March 09, 2017, 11:47:46 am
Exactly why the REI deal at Helmerich Park is such a failure.  Why sell our parkland when there are plenty of better retail locations all over the city, with more to come as big box stores continue to close.


I'll have to assume that the Tulsa metro populous would be more likely to go to the REI big box located near the river over the old Sears location at 21st and Yale.

I'm certain the developer prefers a go-forward with a cheap land deal and infrastructure assist from the city.

This is the Tulsa way.  (Sean Connery accent)


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 09, 2017, 11:55:02 am
I'll have to assume that the Tulsa metro populous would be more likely to go to the REI big box located near the river over the old Sears location at 21st and Yale.

I'm certain the developer prefers a go-forward with a cheap land deal and infrastructure assist from the city.

This is the Tulsa way.  (Sean Connery accent)

Ironic, since everyone thinks REI is cool because they only think of the flagship stores... which happen to be repurposed old buildings.   Tulsa is getting a repurposed park.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 09, 2017, 11:57:38 am
It would be hard for me to open a big box retail store in a location that had failed at hosting a failed big box retailer.

I think we need new ideas for these locations.

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.

OU-Tulsa could operate in the Promenade easily. Convert the Macy's to classrooms.

We need new ideas.
    


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: SXSW on March 09, 2017, 12:11:11 pm
It would be hard for me to open a big box retail store in a location that had failed at hosting a failed big box retailer.

I think we need new ideas for these locations.

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.

OU-Tulsa could operate in the Promenade easily. Convert the Macy's to classrooms.

We need new ideas.

Hotel at 21st & Yale is a good idea.  I fear Promenade's days as an enclosed mall are numbered.  It could be converted back to an outdoor mall with potentially 1 or 2 anchors (Dillard's and maybe an H&M?) with the rest of the space a mix of offices and expansion for OU along Yale.  Ironic that it was once an outdoor shopping center.  Look at Belmar in Lakewood, CO where this was done successfully.  And they also have a big box power center across the street just like Southroads.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Conan71 on March 09, 2017, 12:54:35 pm
Hotel at 21st & Yale is a good idea.  I fear Promenade's days as an enclosed mall are numbered.  It could be converted back to an outdoor mall with potentially 1 or 2 anchors (Dillard's and maybe an H&M?) with the rest of the space a mix of offices and expansion for OU along Yale.  Ironic that it was once an outdoor shopping center.  Look at Belmar in Lakewood, CO where this was done successfully.  And they also have a big box power center across the street just like Southroads.

Another high traffic area for REI if they are planning to do their layup slab dreck model here would be the SW corner of 71st & Memorial since it’s getting a complete overhaul.

I don’t know if you’ve followed the thread before on this, but not only was Promenade an outdoor mall as “Southland” shopping center, Southroads across the street is an indoor mall converted to a power center format.  Quite an irony.

I believe REI could do well in Utica Square.  I find it interesting H & P has foregone the rent from Petty’s and Miss Jackson’s now for over a year while that ground sits empty.  I’m sure Mr. Helmerich has to be scratching his head over the decisions his kids have been making since he passed on.

So, has a replacement not been found for Miss Jackson’s or Petty’s or has there been an announcement and I’ve just missed it?


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 09, 2017, 02:50:02 pm
Another high traffic area for REI if they are planning to do their layup slab dreck model here would be the SW corner of 71st & Memorial since it’s getting a complete overhaul.

That will be an interesting development to follow.

Large pad with high traffic counts. New large grocery and new restaurants on out parcels.

It is everything you want a redevelopment to include. If it fails, retail will always fail on that corner.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: patric on March 09, 2017, 03:58:52 pm

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.
    

+1.

Did I read earlier the tiny Expo Motel had some sort of protective arrangement?

EDIT:  apparently tied to the horseracing there.  A repost:


Ralph L. Jones Jr.'s management company will be paid a $215,000 settlement because Tulsa County officials will not allow the Tulsa developer to build a second hotel at the fairgrounds.

Records show that American Management Inc. had an option to lease 2.5 acres for a second hotel on a mutually agreeable site near Gate 12 on 21st Street. But fairgrounds officials and AMI could never agree on a specific location.

Jones owns and operates the Microtel that was built at the fairgrounds in 1999.

"Granted, it said in a mutually agreeable place, but mutually agreeable means you can't be unreasonable, and the fairgrounds said we don't want to build a hotel anywhere out here," said Tulsa County Public Facilities Authority member Bob Dick. "I believe in good faith. I think when we signed the original contract, that was probably what was envisioned. I think that contract had some value and I didn't want to test it in a court of law."

AMI president Chris Knapp informed Expo Square in March 2003 that the ideal site for a second hotel would be in front of the Exposition Center on a long, narrow strip of land encompassing most of the parking lot.

Dick said having a hotel built in front of the Exposition Center's facade wouldn't work for aesthetic reasons.

"I just didn't think it was in our best interest to give up 21/2 acres of prime parking right next to the Expo building," said Expo Square President Denny Tuttle.

The May 1997 agreement predated a master plan that was later developed for Expo Square that focuses on it being a family entertainment and events center with an emphasis on livestock facilities. Since then, Dick said, the whole landscape at the fairgrounds has changed.

"The highest, best use of land, I don't feel would have been another hotel. That's kind of our entry way," Dick said.

As a result of the settlement, AMI will be paid $215,000 and a second hotel will no longer be an option. AMI will pay $65,000 in past-due rent on the hotel that it withheld from the fairgrounds during the dispute.

The fairgrounds receives $42,200 annual rent for the hotel, plus a percentage of gross room revenues. The fairgrounds was projected to earn about $100,000 a year, but actual reve nues have ranged between $69,000 to about $98,000 a year, records show.

Jones' financial relationship with the fairgrounds is complex. Jones put up the money to construct the $2.1 million simulcasting facility at Fair Meadows and in return was allowed to build a $4 million, 103-room hotel on the fairgrounds.

His company holds food and beverage rights from the sports bar in the simulcast facility and retains the $2 admission revenues to pay the debt on the building.

AMI owns the simulcast building but leases the land from the Public Facilities Authority. Tom Hilborne, the authority's attorney, said the lease was transferred in January 1998 to Fair Meadows Racing and Sports Bar LLC, which was signed by Jones as manager. A limited liability company does not have to disclose its members.

Jones is listed as an officer of the not-for-profit Revival America Association. The group's Web site posts the same address as the simulcasting facility.

AMI also owns the hotel building and pays a lease to the fairgrounds for the land. AMI records list Knapp as president, Carl P. Hall as vice president and Audrey Williams as secretary. Tuttle said AMI assigned the hotel lease to Jasper Development, which is also an LLC. Knapp signed as president in that agreement.

Jones' proposal to build the Microtel was controversial at the time because the Public Facilities Authority did not seek competitive proposals from other developers. Jones was campaign manager in Dick's unsuccessful bid for mayor of Tulsa in 1994. Jones has been one of Dick's top political contributors in the past.

But Dick said that Jones' building of a simulcast facility kept the fairgrounds from closing its doors during hard financial times. Fairgrounds buildings were in poor condition. The racing simulcast operation was previously run out of the old Trade Center.

"The simulcast facility is what kept the doors open to the fairgrounds for a long time. Now with the improvements we're making, other things are starting to kick in, but had we not had a simulcasting facility, there was talk of shutting down a lot of venues and reducing a number of shows we had out there because we were losing money on them," Dick said.


http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=5347.msg8970#msg8970




Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 09, 2017, 04:54:10 pm
1)
REI should be a tenant in the new Santa Fe Square project.  If stores like REI and Apple want marquee locations, and Elliot is trying to bring marquee shopping back to downtown Tulsa, it seems to me like a natural fit.  The age of power center retail is passing.  Plus part of the magic of those sexy brands like REI and Apple and Bonobos is their preference for downtown stores as a branding exercise. 

In really big cities you're seeing national chain store retail booming downtown, even though the stores lose money.  The value is in being a showroom and advertising for online shoppers rather than actual sales per SF.  I wonder if that's something we'll see with Santa Fe Square.  In my dreamworld that becomes Boston Avenue. 

2) those failing big box power centers take up an enormous amount of space.  What will Tulsa do once the 41st and Yale area is entirely vacant?  The buildings are crappy, windowless, and enormous and can't really be repurposed.  The site probably requires environmental remediation, and it's big enough to fit far more apartments and housing than the Tulsa market can possibly absorb.  It's a problem that every city that grew post-WWII is going to have to figure out. 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Bamboo World on March 09, 2017, 07:59:19 pm


What will Tulsa do once the 41st and Yale area is entirely vacant?
 

Most likely:
a) Abandon more public park land and sell it cheap for run-of-the-mill private development;
b) Install more glaring acorn lights;
c) Rename more streets after Civil War era photographers or other people who have nothing to do with Tulsa's history;
d) Rip up some more perfectly good sidewalks and replace them with rough, faux-brick pavers; and
e) Widen more streets.



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Conan71 on March 09, 2017, 08:48:38 pm
Most likely:
a) Abandon more public park land and sell it cheap for run-of-the-mill private development;
b) Install more glaring acorn lights;
c) Rename more streets after Civil War era photographers or other people who have nothing to do with Tulsa's history;
d) Rip up some more perfectly good sidewalks and replace them with rough, faux-brick pavers; and
e) Widen more streets.



Your cynicism is well-justified I'm afraid.  Hell, it's not even really cynicism, just the reality decades of short-sighted development practices have bestowed upon us Tulsans.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 09, 2017, 10:43:01 pm
There really is nothing more depressing than derelict big box.  It feels almost like an abandoned mine - a company comes in, hoovers up all the value, and then leaves behind its mess for the public sector to try and clean up. 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Bamboo World on March 09, 2017, 10:47:54 pm


There really is nothing more depressing than derelict big box. 


A derelict big box on an extra wide and re-named street with acorn lights and faux-brick pavers around it is more depressing than a plain old run-of-the-mill derelict big box.



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 10, 2017, 09:03:35 am
A derelict big box on an extra wide and re-named street with acorn lights and faux-brick pavers around it is more depressing than a plain old run-of-the-mill derelict big box.

Don't forget to raise residential property assessed values.    As someone that lives very close to Promenade mall, I'd like to know why I just got a notice that my home's assessed value went up 13%.   Apparently abandoned/derelict malls are a raise property values.  Who knew.   (you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Conan71 on March 10, 2017, 09:42:06 am
Don't forget to raise residential property assessed values.    As someone that lives very close to Promenade mall, I'd like to know why I just got a notice that my home's assessed value went up 13%.   Apparently abandoned/derelict malls are a raise property values.  Who knew.   (you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)

FWIW, both the houses I own a couple of miles north of you along the Yale corridor were re-assessed as well this year.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: AquaMan on March 10, 2017, 09:57:21 am
Mine went up as well. IIRC about 20%. Fortunately it is held to a smaller percentage because of my age. I wonder if the plan is to raise these properties ad valorem now because they are age limited in the belief that when the boomers cash in or pass on that they automatically jump to the most recent appraised tax value regardless of what derelict boxes may be nearby. Actually, pretty smart.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Red Arrow on March 10, 2017, 04:48:31 pm
(you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)

Check the property map:
http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-maps-agree.php?type=interactive

If your $ per square ft assessment is similar to your neighbors', don't waste your time.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 14, 2017, 10:21:01 am
Add Gordman's to the list (http://www.newson6.com/story/34799471/gordmans-declares-bankruptcy-closing-all-stores)


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 14, 2017, 10:54:00 am
Quote
Creative ways Tulsa could repurpose its vacant storefronts


Tulsa stands to have at least three more vacant storefronts following the bankruptcy filings of Radio Shack’s parent company and Gordmans, the regional discount department store.

That empty retail space will join the soon-to-be vacant Macy’s and Sears in midtown Tulsa. And we don’t even know if the metro area will be affected by the coming J.C. Penney closures yet. A few weeks ago, I wrote about what the closures do for the retail centers where the leaving tenants reside and how that spills over into the broader picture.
Today, when I saw that Gordmans was going to leave Centennial Plaza with another empty storefront, it got me thinking about a pair of recent interviews I had. In both, the conversation turned to what would happen to the spaces after the current tenants left.


Dan Houston of the consulting firm Civic Economics said one issue that municipalities will soon be grappling with once their struggle to collect sales tax from online retailers was over, would be land use.


He noted that as online sales become more convenient and gain market share, there isn’t the need for as much retail space.


“There will be less commercial space relative to our population in the future than there is today,” Houston said. “And Amazon, and online retail, obviously played an enormous role in that. That’s going to have tremendous repercussions for tax revenue.”


The other interview was with a local real estate broker. We talked about how the sheer size of an anchor tenant made it tough to replace one and that landlords were forced to get creative with the large square footage, either re-purposing it or making the space suitable for more than one tenant.


If one tenant doesn’t work, a grocery store might. A Washington Post story last week noted that, across the country, grocery stores are filling some of those large vacant spaces and changing the mall in the process.


“Part of it is a survival tactic,” Calvin Schnure, an economist with the National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts, told the Post. “E-commerce is changing people’s spending patterns. But in the process, they are changing the shopping experience in a mall.”


While the fate of soon-to-be empty storefronts is a question of what will happen in the future, a possible answer could be in Tulsa’s past. The former Eastland Mall is now Eastgate Metroplex — a call center hotbed — and, on the outskirts of what people are willing to call midtown Tulsa, there’s the old Fontana Shopping Center. It used to have a Ross Dress for Less, a movie theater and what my boss describes as an “awesome” record store.


Now, Common Ground Church occupies the largest amount of space. There are two gyms, a Hideaway Pizza location, a sporting goods store, an events center and a billiards hall.


And, interestingly enough, some old retail space has become a place from which loose-limbed teenagers emerge clutching baseball bats on weeknights.


We don’t know what will become of Tulsa’s closing stores. But, maybe, like it did when I heard the thwack of aluminum meeting a baseball and something white flicker in my peripheral vision when I walked by one night, the answer could surprise us.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/business/samuelhardiman/biz-beat-creative-ways-tulsa-could-repurpose-its-vacant-storefronts/article_5317eebb-11df-5673-9b5f-0c4496b00149.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/business/samuelhardiman/biz-beat-creative-ways-tulsa-could-repurpose-its-vacant-storefronts/article_5317eebb-11df-5673-9b5f-0c4496b00149.html)


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: saintnicster on March 14, 2017, 11:00:29 am
Don't forget to raise residential property assessed values.    As someone that lives very close to Promenade mall, I'd like to know why I just got a notice that my home's assessed value went up 13%.   Apparently abandoned/derelict malls are a raise property values.  Who knew.   (you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)
when was the last time your house had been assessed?  Mine went up (21st and yale), but I assumed that was because it was still showing a cost from 2007 when the previous owner bought the house


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 14, 2017, 11:41:36 am
TW has noticed. This is a great and puzzling question. It is yet another reason why Tulsa should not give sweet deals to developers promising new retail. We have plenty of existing retail that is vacant or will be vacant soon with no end to the decline in sight.

What would make sense to me is for big online companies like Amazon to create "facilitation centers" where you can go try the top-rated best-selling items and place your order (or for a bit more markup, buy one there to take home or have delivered that day). They key difference being facilitation centers wouldn't necessarily carry any stock and are designed as showrooms first and only selling items they can restock from a warehouse quickly (Just-in-time delivery).

Indoor sports practice/training areas seems reasonable (golf/baseball/go-carts). There's a mutli-sports arena complex going in near Southern Hills. Maybe that's a new model of things to come.

Indoor dog parks? Maybe dog clubs for those too snobby to use a public dog park and who want an indoor year-round place for dogs to go socialize and play off-leash (outdoor dog park clubs already exist - e.g. Dallas).

In the future, maybe an advanced Virtual Reality setup. Basically, a place that has high-end VR and all sensor equipment needed to facilitate a great unique VR experience so the average person can go try it from time to time without having to buy expensive equipment with limited media/games that may or may not be obsolete within a year or so.

UAV/Quad-Copter/Drone race courses - What we see so far might be just the tip of the iceberg in terms of popularity for these in the future. Imagine a place where you can go to race these and if something breaks, be able to get it fixed or buy parts there. Niche hobby places often struggle but they could diversify by having remote control race cars tracks, remote boat race areas and even a robot battle ring. Would be a place for both hobbyists and spectators.

Split the areas up into tiny retail booths. Yes this has the potential to be bad/cheap-looking but also could be really neat if done well. The Antique Mall in the old farmers market building west of downtown OKC is a good example but the starting building was a great historical building to begin with - not a JC Penny or Gordmans.

Retail stores probably need to focus on becoming more of an experience and offer incentives and other things you can only get in-store or else many more will eventually be replaced by online shopping.

Breweries/brewpubs - Micro-Breweries require light-industrial zoning, but perhaps more brewpubs/breweries could get zoning approvals and fill some of the space as they are set to really take off with new laws.

Converting to share-workspaces like 36 Degrees North in the Brady Arts District


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 14, 2017, 12:13:10 pm
Neiman Marcus considers sale to Hudson's Bay.......

Quote
Neiman Marcus Group Ltd., the struggling department-store chain that scrapped plans in January for an initial public offering, is considering a sale of the company instead.

Neiman Marcus is in talks with Hudson’s Bay Co., the owner of Saks Fifth Avenue, about a buyout of the upscale retailer, according to the Wall Street Journal. The deal would exclude Neiman Marcus’s nearly $5 billion in debt, the newspaper reported.

The takeover speculation follows Neiman Marcus’s announcement Tuesday that it’s working with financial advisers on a review of its strategic options, which may include selling part or all of its business. The company also wrote down its brand and other assets by $153.8 million last quarter and rejiggered its corporate structure to give it more financial flexibility.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-14/neiman-marcus-is-considering-a-sale-of-company-following-slump (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-14/neiman-marcus-is-considering-a-sale-of-company-following-slump)


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 14, 2017, 12:56:12 pm
Ultimately, the demand for commercial space is going to plummet. No matter what crazy/inventive ideas people come up with, there will be many millions more square feet of commercial space available in the Tulsa area in the coming years and no one to fill them (Old Borders is STILL empty 6 years later). So commercial-zoned properties and commercial rental rates should plummet (not that it will, especially in the newer hot-spots like Southern Hills. In fact, the places still lively and busy should go up).

Look around at all of the empty restaurant and retail space all over: Even in areas viewed as hot spots like Downtown and Cherry Street, there are lots of vacancies. Some places were never even occupied like the shopping center with Bed Bath & Beyond off I44. If you drive around any part of Tulsa (especially North, East or West), you see perhaps more vacant commercial space than occupied spaces. In those areas, land-owners had a few choices: Keep lowering rent to compete with an ever-declining pool of worsening/riskier candidates, sell the property at a loss, or keep it and hope the area turns around later on. That third approach could work if you aren't dependent on the rental income and don't mind the taxes (which don't really drop as fast as your property value does) and could pay off if the area ever becomes "quaint" or gets bought to be developed, but in the majority of cases, it doesn't get better and the "nice" parts of town keep moving further out where the cheap land is. Value declines until you can hardly give the property away. Virtually every retail center/strip or "hot spot" from more than 20 years ago is now a dump (Admiral strip, 61st & Memorial,  71st & Memorial is getting redone partly but looks dumpy now). A few have been re-purposed (Eastland Mall, though area is still a dump). Many more have a pretty high vacancy rate.

I can see larger commercial property owners getting their land rezoned to multi-family residential and flooding the market with cheap apartments/condos, even if retrofitting some of these is expensive. Hotels would make sense also. Whatever happens, the big corporations which own most of this property (and probably already made enough profit from these short-lived shopping centers to be ahead) will likely come out ahead anyway (They'll have the resources to compete for fewer tenants and retrofit as needed). Smaller businesses with too much invested in commercial properties will suffer. Homeowners in those areas could be hurt as an influx of either vacant space or apartments lowers land values.

Lets hope people and the economy can adjust to this and create something to replace big box retail. Of course this board is full of people who are for smart development for many of these exact reasons which make these big-box stores such bad development choices. Tulsa won't be the only place to suffer from this and perhaps Tulsa will be better off than a lot of places which might have a lot more invested in retail and malls, but decades of poor commercial retail development prove that Tulsa has not set itself up well for the future either. Furthermore, this could end up hindering good future developments such as Santa Fe Square and the others downtown which have seemed to stall. If retail demand plummets, it's hard to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of premium retail. Sure you could make it office space, but that's not an easy swap.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 14, 2017, 02:46:44 pm
I find it fascinating how dense urban retail centers declined as mid-century preferences shifted towards bigger and bigger store footprints to hold enormous amounts of inventory with more and more parking.  It's what killed historic retail centers like downtown and Kendall-Whittier and every small town Main Street. 

Now preferences are shifting back to what they were pre-1950 - lots of little shops with small footprints.  Places where those old storefronts survived 50 years of neglect, like the Chicago North Side, Cherry Street, etc are booming.  I bet if you could go to any small Oklahoma town and teleport its Main Street to downtown Tulsa the place would be gangbusters successful.  I love Main Street by Prairie and Hunt Club and that is literally the one block of classic main street that survived in downtown.  You can only imagine how awesome it would be if Main Street still stretched unbroken all the way to the Sinclair Building.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 14, 2017, 02:51:47 pm
I also think that small footprint, experiential retail is alive and well.  Unique restaurants, sweet patio bars, services, anything that can't be replicated online.  Those things thrive in walkable areas and fail in shopping centers.

I honestly have no idea what to do about our legacy of huge shopping centers that have no real use anymore.  Tear them down and make housing?  In any case we should be discouraging the nasty habit of building more of them at the extreme edge of the city. 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Conan71 on March 14, 2017, 02:57:41 pm
Ultimately, the demand for commercial space is going to plummet. No matter what crazy/inventive ideas people come up with, there will be many millions more square feet of commercial space available in the Tulsa area in the coming years and no one to fill them (Old Borders is STILL empty 6 years later). So commercial-zoned properties and commercial rental rates should plummet (not that it will, especially in the newer hot-spots like Southern Hills. In fact, the places still lively and busy should go up).

Look around at all of the empty restaurant and retail space all over: Even in areas viewed as hot spots like Downtown and Cherry Street, there are lots of vacancies. Some places were never even occupied like the shopping center with Bed Bath & Beyond off I44. If you drive around any part of Tulsa (especially North, East or West), you see perhaps more vacant commercial space than occupied spaces. In those areas, land-owners had a few choices: Keep lowering rent to compete with an ever-declining pool of worsening/riskier candidates, sell the property at a loss, or keep it and hope the area turns around later on. That third approach could work if you aren't dependent on the rental income and don't mind the taxes (which don't really drop as fast as your property value does) and could pay off if the area ever becomes "quaint" or gets bought to be developed, but in the majority of cases, it doesn't get better and the "nice" parts of town keep moving further out where the cheap land is. Value declines until you can hardly give the property away. Virtually every retail center/strip or "hot spot" from more than 20 years ago is now a dump (Admiral strip, 61st & Memorial,  71st & Memorial is getting redone partly but looks dumpy now). A few have been re-purposed (Eastland Mall, though area is still a dump). Many more have a pretty high vacancy rate.

I can see larger commercial property owners getting their land rezoned to multi-family residential and flooding the market with cheap apartments/condos, even if retrofitting some of these is expensive. Hotels would make sense also. Whatever happens, the big corporations which own most of this property (and probably already made enough profit from these short-lived shopping centers to be ahead) will likely come out ahead anyway (They'll have the resources to compete for fewer tenants and retrofit as needed). Smaller businesses with too much invested in commercial properties will suffer. Homeowners in those areas could be hurt as an influx of either vacant space or apartments lowers land values.

Lets hope people and the economy can adjust to this and create something to replace big box retail. Of course this board is full of people who are for smart development for many of these exact reasons which make these big-box stores such bad development choices. Tulsa won't be the only place to suffer from this and perhaps Tulsa will be better off than a lot of places which might have a lot more invested in retail and malls, but decades of poor commercial retail development prove that Tulsa has not set itself up well for the future either. Furthermore, this could end up hindering good future developments such as Santa Fe Square and the others downtown which have seemed to stall. If retail demand plummets, it's hard to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of premium retail. Sure you could make it office space, but that's not an easy swap.

Great points and great insight.

There's always going to be need for terrestrial retail, it will never completely disappear.  Home improvement stores will always have a local demand as no one is likely to mail order building materials or spring plants and many times I find myself there out of a sudden necessity or an impulse whim of another project I want to tackle.

Electronics stores like Best Buy seem to be doing quite well even with tons of online competition.  That might be because some of us are just not technically savvy and like having someone to ask questions before pulling the trigger or the simple fact your TV took a dump and you don't want to wait a day or two for the new one to show up.

Penney's and Sears are dated models and really did not offer much of interest to myself or my wife, nor many others it would appear.  I'm surprised Sears held out as long as it did as there was seldom more than 30-40 cars in their parking lot.  I didn't go there for lawn equipment and I'd long since stocked my tool supply with Craftsman tools.  I might buy the occasional tool gift there but that was it.  They weren't competitive on electronics or appliances.  Their clothing prices even on "store closing" mark down aren't competitive.

Locally branded retail will always do well if they have an innovative inventory, a niche which is not well filled elsewhere, or simply great ownership/management people find hard to resist.  I'm not certain if it's national level retail Santa Fe Square is planning to attract or locally-based, has anyone else heard?  I'd think a good mix of both would do well by downtowners.  It would be wonderful if an Apple Store would open downtown.

Along the lines of big box, I noticed the turnpike improvements at Elm in Jenks appear done or very near, yet there's no dirt turning for the proposed Simon Outlet Mall.  I honestly don't see this happenening and Simon apparently isn't really forthcoming with new information on starting or completing construction.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: DTowner on March 14, 2017, 03:33:06 pm
I think the statements that big box retail is dying or collapsing are overstated (the large department store model may very well be on the way out).  The real issue is there is simply way too much retail space.  Not only are online sales eating into brick and mortar businesses, but there has been way too much brick and mortar built over the last decade.
 
Think of the major retail areas that have sprung up in Tulsa in the last decade: Owasso along 169, Broken Arrow east of Bass Pro, Memorial from South Tulsa into Bixby, and Tulsa Hills/Walk.   A decade ago, big box retail in those locations simply did not exist and folks in those areas traveled to Woodland Hills/71s & Memorial, 41st & Yale and 21st & Yale to do a much of their shopping.  Now, each of those areas essentially has all the same types of stores/restaurants and everyone stays closer to home.  In that same decade, Tulsa area’s population growth hasn’t come close to matching the growth in retail square footage. 

Often using debt to fund continuous expansion plans to hit growth numbers to please shareholders or equity fund owners, big box brands just kept building and building as new “life style” centers voraciously ate up land.  As the saying goes, something that can’t go on forever won’t.  That kind of expansion cannot continue to exceed population/consumer growth, and highly leveraged balance sheets can’t survive many bad management decisions or an economic downturn.  While the national economy grew slowly for most of the last decade, Tulsa’s economy took a dive with oil prices the past 2 years. 

Slow population growth, declining economy and an oversupply of retail store fronts.  Perhaps the only surprise is there aren’t more empty stores in Tulsa.



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Breadburner on March 14, 2017, 04:12:37 pm
Amazon and others be killin their biz....


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TheArtist on March 14, 2017, 06:31:58 pm
With the tepid population growth in Tulsa (if there even is any growth) the new shopping centers and such that we have are basically just thinning out the customer base or drawing it to a new area leaving the older areas to suffer.  Add to that internet purchasing eating up a percentage. 

What I worry about of course is downtown.  I am still frustrated that I was beaten down over the zoning thing that could have perhaps gotten us a step towards having a retail corridor.  In order for retail to survive downtown it will need to be a part of the "experience" thing.  We will need to have a concentration of retail/restaurant somewhere downtown to make it a lively and interesting destination area.  That liveliness will be the the attraction and "experience" that will draw people to the retail.  Otherwise, having a couple shops here, a few there, etc. will result in weak, struggling retail.  I for one am trying to do three things at once.  Keep interesting fun products in the store at a good price while also now trying to add fun "experience" type components into the store, and also going up one more dimension by adding "stories" and characters to the products and experience components.  Got to work to stay ahead of what the other guys are doing and realizing!  Cant' wait for you to see what I have up my sleeves next!


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 15, 2017, 09:05:02 am
I think the statements that big box retail is dying or collapsing are overstated (the large department store model may very well be on the way out).  The real issue is there is simply way too much retail space.  Not only are online sales eating into brick and mortar businesses, but there has been way too much brick and mortar built over the last decade.
 

I agree that big box retail is not completely dying or collapsing so quickly, but we are talking long-term changes here. Just like when people talk about what will all of the Semi-Truck drivers and cab drivers do when driverless cars replace them. In-store retail is on the decline and within the next couple years in-store retail will be at least a 10% down from it's peak. Not catastrophic, but that represents billions in dollars of sales that won't be there for brick and mortars and who knows what the ceiling is for online sales? I could see that reaching 30% eventually.


Think of the major retail areas that have sprung up in Tulsa in the last decade: Owasso along 169, Broken Arrow east of Bass Pro, Memorial from South Tulsa into Bixby, and Tulsa Hills/Walk.   A decade ago, big box retail in those locations simply did not exist and folks in those areas traveled to Woodland Hills/71s & Memorial, 41st & Yale and 21st & Yale to do a much of their shopping.  Now, each of those areas essentially has all the same types of stores/restaurants and everyone stays closer to home.  In that same decade, Tulsa area’s population growth hasn’t come close to matching the growth in retail square footage. 

Did those areas really create much new retail sales growth or did they simply siphon it from other areas? I see a lot of empty storefronts in strip malls all over Broken Arrow and these places probably added to the decline of Promenade and hurt other new places like Midtown Village off I44 which has only Bed Bath & Beyond. I think it is a combo of too much new retail square footage (perhaps the larger issue to date?) and declining demand due to online sales.

It seems like the model for retail is to build new to create a new posh shopping center by the highway that is nicer than other shopping centers so people will want to flock to it instead, usually with a popular chain anchor tenant new to the area such as REI/Bass Pro/etc. These new places create a buzz for a while and the area may thrive for a decade or two with high rents until it turns into just another retail area and dies off as it deteriorates. All the while, all of the dozens of other retail strips suffer with declining rents, declining buildings and declining customers and many parts of town end up looking like post-apocalyptic strip mall grave yards (See: East Tulsa, Admiral blvd).


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 15, 2017, 09:33:50 am
Also, a lot of shopping center developers are "merchant builders."  They build the same thing over and over again in different markets, in this case big box shopping centers, usually with cities leaping to provide public infrastructure for extra sales tax revenue.  

That model generally requires a pre-packaged plan they can slap down on a greenfield site with a few minor adjustments.  It's Model T Ford style development.  It doesn't fit well with buying an existing shopping center and rehabbing it, or dealing with a pre-existing urban neighborhood.

So development keeps sprawling south because that is where the greenfield sites are.    

I'm also going to take a wild guess that a lot of the semi-abandoned shopping centers in Tulsa like 41st & Yale have environmental issues that cookie cutter developers don't want to deal with.  That much parking with that much vehicle run off for that many years is likely to have caused some problems.

@Artist - I agree that downtown needs a marquee retail street - Michigan Avenue in Chicago, Newbury Street in Boston, King Street in Charleston.  I think Tulsa's issue is that its best, most intact streetwall - Boston Avenue - is also its most intense office/commercial street.  A lot of those storefronts will have highest and best uses that target office workers instead of shoppers/visitors.  In those other cities I mentioned, the premier retail street is always near the CBD/Financial District but never actually in it.  But in any case you're right - retail/entertainment has to be tightly clustered if it is going to become more than the sum of its parts.    And I still hope it becomes Boston Avenue because that's my favorite street in all of Oklahoma.  


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 15, 2017, 11:42:05 am
Also, a lot of shopping center developers are "merchant builders."  They build the same thing over and over again in different markets, in this case big box shopping centers, usually with cities leaping to provide public infrastructure for extra sales tax revenue.  

That model generally requires a pre-packaged plan they can slap down on a greenfield site with a few minor adjustments.  It's Model T Ford style development.  It doesn't fit well with buying an existing shopping center and rehabbing it, or dealing with a pre-existing urban neighborhood.

So development keeps sprawling south because that is where the greenfield sites are.    


Yeah, that is what I call "Copy & Paste America" and has done a great job making countless communities look like anywhere else. They package the same 4-8 big-chain tenants and get them to agree to place locations in X number of places. They build there and are able to undercut locals on rent thanks to the tax abatements or kickbacks from the city (and location, thanks to charitable city counsels!) and the chains are able to undercut local places (volume, nice/new store thanks to funding, etc).

These places feel so generic as do the establishments that typically fill them which are often devoid of local flavor or personal touch. Many Americans love that sort of stuff like what they did in Owasso. Sure it looks nicer than the alternative (deteriorating strips), but shuts all the little guys out of business in favor of huge corporations. Is this a good sustainable future which will be fruitful to continue to invest in? Is this the sort of society we want? Too late to ask that. It is what we have.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 15, 2017, 11:55:11 am
@Artist - I agree that downtown needs a marquee retail street - Michigan Avenue in Chicago, Newbury Street in Boston, King Street in Charleston.  I think Tulsa's issue is that its best, most intact streetwall - Boston Avenue - is also its most intense office/commercial street.  A lot of those storefronts will have highest and best uses that target office workers instead of shoppers/visitors.  In those other cities I mentioned, the premier retail street is always near the CBD/Financial District but never actually in it.  But in any case you're right - retail/entertainment has to be tightly clustered if it is going to become more than the sum of its parts.    And I still hope it becomes Boston Avenue because that's my favorite street in all of Oklahoma.  

That would be great if Boston could develop into that. I think perceived parking (and inability to park hundreds of cars easily) has kept big retail out of that strip and made retail demand there slow. So many shops have opened and closed in that area.

Maybe the Block surrounding Santa Fe Square will have to be the marquee retail street. The Boxyard gives a good start to building a retail area along with the main Blue Dome (Detroit-Elgin-1st-2nd) block as another bookend. That area has some of the biggest hustle and bustle downtown and is set to really pick up with the PAC lot and Santa Fe projects. It could end up being the best little urban district in Oklahoma and be enough of an experience to pull in the kinds of crowds that keep retail feasible. There are so many events throughout the year that could boost foot traffic and sales (St Patrick's Day, Blue Dome Arts Festival, Tulsa Tough).


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 15, 2017, 12:00:20 pm
With the tepid population growth in Tulsa (if there even is any growth) the new shopping centers and such that we have are basically just thinning out the customer base or drawing it to a new area leaving the older areas to suffer.  Add to that internet purchasing eating up a percentage. 

With all the restaurants opening it is the same thing.  There aren't a lot more people showing up they are just going different places. 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: saintnicster on March 17, 2017, 02:00:06 pm
JC Penney in Tulsa spared for now

Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/jc-penney-stores-in-claremore-stillwater-and-ponca-city-to/article_293ae69b-3734-54d3-82fe-8aa33decab83.html)
Quote
Department store chain J.C. Penney announced the 138 stores it's closing Friday morning, and Tulsa was spared the loss of another department store.

Ponca City, Claremore and Stillwater weren't, however, as the retailer pulled back from some smaller Oklahoma markets. The company is also closing a location in Altus.

The nationwide closures will impact about 5,000 employees nationwide, the company said.

JC Penney said most of the stores will begin the liquidation process April 17.

The pull-back from JC Penney is mostly in smaller markets, which is a departure from the long-time strategy of the department store. The brand, like Sears, was known for being in small cities across the U.S.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 23, 2017, 07:54:38 am
Looks like pending doom for Woodland Hills' Sears  (all remaining sears' actually)

http://www.newson6.com/story/34979739/sears-may-shut-its-doors


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on March 27, 2017, 07:41:49 am
http://www.fox23.com/news/tulsa-neighbors-near-51st-and-harvard-concerned-by-closing-businesses/499493308

Lots of big box failure at 51st & Harvard. That whole area needs to be bought up and redone in one big mega-project.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on March 27, 2017, 08:14:19 am
http://www.fox23.com/news/tulsa-neighbors-near-51st-and-harvard-concerned-by-closing-businesses/499493308

Lots of big box failure at 51st & Harvard. That whole area needs to be bought up and redone in one big mega-project.

If "lots" = K-mart and Reasors
"Country Club Plaza" (the strip where Reasors is) could use an update...   Perhaps an REI.  right off of the interstate....
Hobby Lobby and Mardel is an improvement to the former K-mart location.

Perhaps a grocery store would do better in the old Hobby Lobby spot.

mega-projects tend to produce cookie cutter strip malls with generic big-box.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: PonderInc on March 27, 2017, 10:26:06 am
Legalize pot, and all these places would become greenhouses. 

http://www.denverpost.com/2014/03/10/pot-growing-warehouses-in-short-supply-as-demand-for-legal-weed-surges/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2014/03/10/pot-growing-warehouses-in-short-supply-as-demand-for-legal-weed-surges/)
http://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/19/marijuana-industry-drives-denver-metro-areas-real-estate-recovery/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/19/marijuana-industry-drives-denver-metro-areas-real-estate-recovery/)



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Bones013 on April 10, 2017, 04:15:07 am
Construction dumpsters and contractor sign at the former Mardel's on Harvard.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on April 10, 2017, 06:15:43 am
Construction dumpsters and contractor sign at the former Mardel's on Harvard.

Anyone know what's going in there?


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 10, 2017, 09:45:13 am
Looks like pending doom for Woodland Hills' Sears  (all remaining sears' actually)

http://www.newson6.com/story/34979739/sears-may-shut-its-doors


They have been walking dead for years...that is the price for going the Harvard School of Business MBA route...  You cannot "cut cost" your way out of a bad situation as the sole solution.





Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Bones013 on April 10, 2017, 12:41:17 pm
Anyone know what's going in there?
Joel Coggins is the contractor. His Facebook photo album has a lot of pics of Rustic Cuff build-outs. Coincidentally, happens to be the same building that Rustic Cuff used for a pop up  shop on Black Friday last year.  But, who knows? 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on April 10, 2017, 01:25:21 pm
But, who knows? 

Here's hoping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUDwj_mXKE


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Ibanez on April 10, 2017, 01:48:41 pm
Here's hoping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUDwj_mXKE

Personally I was hoping for an aluminum foil wholesaler...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: BKDotCom on May 05, 2017, 11:22:18 pm
Gander's Going... (liquidation sale underway now)
http://www.fox23.com/news/gander-mountain-closes-tulsa-hills-store/519873796


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Red Arrow on May 05, 2017, 11:31:54 pm
Gander's Going... (liquidation sale underway now)
http://www.fox23.com/news/gander-mountain-closes-tulsa-hills-store/519873796

No surprise there.  I went in shortly after they opened and found nothing at a price point that interested me.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 06, 2017, 11:32:26 am
So that lasted about two years and two months. What a waste.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/grand-opening-thursday-gander-mountain-aims-to-be-the-new/article_2ad67168-6f00-5bd9-8eb0-2c3aae6c3bb3.html


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 06, 2017, 12:32:57 pm
So that lasted about two years and two months. What a waste.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/grand-opening-thursday-gander-mountain-aims-to-be-the-new/article_2ad67168-6f00-5bd9-8eb0-2c3aae6c3bb3.html


The market is saturated with this style of outdoors stores. Gander could not compete with Bass Pro/Cabela's as well as online and smaller regional stores. So now that the assets of Gander Mountain have been bought by Camping World you will have the new camping and hunting superstores where you can get your RV and your ammo at one place.

Quote
NILES, Ohio -
The new owner of the Gander Mountain outdoor goods retail chain is Tweeting that he hasn't decided yet if the store at the Eastwood Mall Complex will ultimately be closed.
Marcus Lemonis, Star of the CNBC show “The Profit", has been responding to Tweeted questions about the future of various Gander Mountain stores since a bankruptcy court approved plans by his company Camping World to conduct inventory liquidation sales at all Gander Mountain stores.
Lemonis, Chairman and CEO of recreational vehicle product retailer Camping World, has made it clear that he wants to keep Gander World's boating business, but said his company is only obligated to continue operating a minimum of 17 of Gander Mountain's locations.

http://www.wfmj.com/story/35359615/new-gander-mountain-owner-answers-tweets-on-future-of-niles-store (http://www.wfmj.com/story/35359615/new-gander-mountain-owner-answers-tweets-on-future-of-niles-store)



 


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: sgrizzle on May 06, 2017, 04:02:52 pm
Well ONLY 90% of the Gander Mountains are closing.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: LeGenDz on May 06, 2017, 06:34:44 pm
Maybe REI should take over that spot


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: Conan71 on May 07, 2017, 08:06:55 am
Maybe REI should take over that spot

I’ve been a participant in such a discussion over on the Facebooks.  Take a look at any REI suburban design and compare to Gander’s Tulsa store.  With some modification to the front entry it would look just like an REI.  Problem solved.

It was suggested that Gander Mtn. be torn down and turned into a park but the Tulsa Suburban Retailers Coalition might object.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: swake on May 07, 2017, 05:35:19 pm
Well ONLY 90% of the Gander Mountains are closing.

Now the new owner is saying that between 70 and 75 stores out of 160 will remain, no specific word on the Tulsa location yet.

http://www.kansas.com/news/business/retail/article149169269.html

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017/05/07/gander-mountain-closing-not-so-fast-says-new-owner-marcus-lemonis/101402750/


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 07, 2017, 05:40:04 pm

It was suggested that Gander Mtn. be torn down and turned into a park but the Tulsa Suburban Retailers Coalition might object.

Now that's funny!  :D


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: TheArtist on May 07, 2017, 09:08:08 pm
I would guess that we will lose about a third of all our brick and mortar retail in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: erfalf on May 08, 2017, 06:46:39 am
I would guess that we will lose about a third of all our brick and mortar retail in Tulsa.

Measured by square footage or store count? The former I could see for sure, the later, I don't know really.

In my locale, the spot opened by Sears in the mall (an anchor tenant) will soon be filled by a sporting goods/outdoor store coincidentally as reported by your vary own Tulsa World. Dunham's Sports. Never been to one. Appears to offer a pretty diverse selection of goods, not just another Hibbett Sports (that is in the parking lot of the mall) which is predominantly apparel/shoes and some equipment for popular sports (football/basketball/soccer/baseball).


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 07:29:11 am
Lemonis is the guy who got hold of Good Sam's Club and kinda crapped it up...a lot.



Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: GJusSayin on October 30, 2017, 01:25:10 pm
Joel Coggins is the contractor. His Facebook photo album has a lot of pics of Rustic Cuff build-outs. Coincidentally, happens to be the same building that Rustic Cuff used for a pop up  shop on Black Friday last year.  But, who knows?  

The Mardel looks like it could be a grocery store - anyone know what it is for sure?


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: rebound on October 30, 2017, 01:42:46 pm
The Mardel looks like it could be a grocery store - anyone know what it is for sure?

Can't tell is this is tongue-in-cheek or not...   Mardel is a large Christian bookstore.


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: MostSeriousness on October 30, 2017, 01:47:27 pm
I think the comment was referring to the former Mardel location, possibly being a grocer...


Title: Re: Big boxes are crumbling around us
Post by: rebound on October 30, 2017, 02:09:51 pm
I think the comment was referring to the former Mardel location, possibly being a grocer...

Ah.  Thanks.  I was confused there for a bit.   ;)