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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: Conan71 on February 17, 2017, 03:47:54 pm



Title: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2017, 03:47:54 pm
So we all know by now a draft memo originating supposedly from John Kelly the new director of DHS called for the deployment of up to 100,000 National Guard troops to enforce immigration law by rounding up illegal immigrants.

As much as I have a distaste for those flaunting our prior lack of immigration enforcement, and the lax attitude of the last four or five admins about immigration enforcement, I have grave concerns about what havoc this would wreak economically and what sort of humanitarian crisis this would create.

Americans and American business have become dependent on tasks typically done by migrant workers.  Our agri-business depends on a lot of labor from from this segment of the population.  There are jobs Americans won't do at any compensation level which are either too physically taxing or just too disgusting for them to attempt.  I've done work inside slaughter plants and rendering plants related to the business I am.  The jobs there are nasty and can be dangerous and difficult.  We have not raised kids in generations who want to pick fruit or vegetables for a living or even on a seasonal basis.

Trump would have to realize fruit would remain on trees, vegetables would go unpicked, the meat supply would become dependent on foreign imports and that's a whole other issue to worry about.  Consumer prices at the stores would sky-rocket and farmers and ranchers would be forced out of business.  There's not one bit of exaggeration in this line of thought.

What becomes of property owners who have rented to these immigrants who no longer can pay their mortgage because their renter was suddenly deported?

What becomes of the American-born children of these immigrants if their parents are deported?  Like it or not, those children are American citizens and they have the same rights as any of us who were born in the U.S.

What would become of hundreds of thousands of deportees with nowhere to go or live?  That becomes a major humanitarian crisis.

We have needed a sensible approach to deal with those who are peacefully living in our country and contributing through their hard work.  I agree those here for strictly nefarious purposes need to be run out and I do believe we need better border security.

If this draft memo really was a serious thought by the administration or one or a few of his appointees, it shows no fundamental understanding of how our economy functions and no consideration for unintended consequences to everyone else if this really came to pass.

One has to wonder where all these leaks came from, but where did the line of thought come from which appears to have created a legitimate and very well-detailed memo from our new director of Homeland Security?  Secondly, how does Trump not appear to be daft on this issue if his appointee to this key position is making directives like this without his boss' knowledge?

The AP's copy of this memo is in the story linked below:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-document-trump-national-guard-draft-memo-20170217-htmlstory.html


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on February 17, 2017, 04:17:41 pm
So we all know by now a draft memo originating supposedly from John Kelly the new director of DHS called for the deployment of up to 100,000 National Guard troops to enforce immigration law by rounding up illegal immigrants.

As much as I have a distaste for those flaunting our prior lack of immigration enforcement, and the lax attitude of the last four or five admins about immigration enforcement, I have grave concerns about what havoc this would wreak economically and what sort of humanitarian crisis this would create.

Americans and American business have become dependent on tasks typically done by migrant workers.  Our agri-business depends on a lot of labor from from this segment of the population.  There are jobs Americans won't do at any compensation level which are either too physically taxing or just too disgusting for them to attempt.  I've done work inside slaughter plants and rendering plants related to the business I am.  The jobs there are nasty and can be dangerous and difficult.  We have not raised kids in generations who want to pick fruit or vegetables for a living or even on a seasonal basis.

Trump would have to realize fruit would remain on trees, vegetables would go unpicked, the meat supply would become dependent on foreign imports and that's a whole other issue to worry about.  Consumer prices at the stores would sky-rocket and farmers and ranchers would be forced out of business.  There's not one bit of exaggeration in this line of thought.

What becomes of property owners who have rented to these immigrants who no longer can pay their mortgage because their renter was suddenly deported?

What becomes of the American-born children of these immigrants if their parents are deported?  Like it or not, those children are American citizens and they have the same rights as any of us who were born in the U.S.

What would become of hundreds of thousands of deportees with nowhere to go or live?  That becomes a major humanitarian crisis.

We have needed a sensible approach to deal with those who are peacefully living in our country and contributing through their hard work.  I agree those here for strictly nefarious purposes need to be run out and I do believe we need better border security.

If this draft memo really was a serious thought by the administration or one or a few of his appointees, it shows no fundamental understanding of how our economy functions and no consideration for unintended consequences to everyone else if this really came to pass.

One has to wonder where all these leaks came from, but where did the line of thought come from which appears to have created a legitimate and very well-detailed memo from our new director of Homeland Security?  Secondly, how does Trump not appear to be daft on this issue if his appointee to this key position is making directives like this without his boss' knowledge?

The AP's copy of this memo is in the story linked below:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-document-trump-national-guard-draft-memo-20170217-htmlstory.html

See, this is all correct. And most sensible people want secure borders. That starts with reasonable immigration rules that allows people to immigrate to this country in numbers that our labor force needs. If we allowed a reasonable number of people in legally that satisfied employers, they wouldn't need to employ illegals which would drive down the number of illegals because there would be no ready large number of ready jobs for them. If we allowed a reasonable number of people in legally, we could also do a better job of keeping bad people out, because today they can just hide among the large numbers that come across illegally today.

NAFTA is part of the solution too. One of the best solutions to illegal immigration is a wealthy Mexico. And they are getting there. Mexico's PPP per capita income is approaching Spain's average income, their average income is similar today to Brazil, Chile and Argentina. It's higher than Turkey and even China's per capita income but you would never know that from the rhetoric on the right. Mexico is no longer a 3rd world country, they are an emerging 2nd world economy. That is good for us as a trading partner and for having a safe and secure hemisphere. This is why most illegals today are from Central America or Asia, many entering the country legally and just overstaying their Visa. I do wonder how well Mexico might be doing if it wasn't for the American war on drugs and our insatiable thirst for drugs that creates such havoc in Mexico border cities. The pain there is OUR fault. Treating Mexico as an enemy and damaging their economy doesn't help us, it hurt us.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 20, 2017, 09:45:35 am
I agree with you.  In addition to your reasoning - using military to round people up is  also bad PR andit isn't likely to be as effective as they hope.  The National Guard isn't trained for such a task, the odds of marginal success at the mission while at the same time violating a ton of civil rights is far too high.  Not because our soldiers are bad people, but they are not trained as policemen and aren't immigration officials... so policing immigration seems like a bad job for them.

That said, even in your disagreement with the memo there is a common misunderstanding:

As much as I have a distaste for those flaunting our prior lack of immigration enforcement, and the lax attitude of the last four or five admins about immigration enforcement...

We have sent more government employees to the border, spent more money, and deported more people by an order of magnitude.  But the constant drum beat that this is some unaddressed crisis convinces people that we aren't doing anything.

Obama deported more people than any other president.  Bush deported more people than the president before him. Clinton deported more people than the president before him. We've been an absolute deportation machine!

(http://blogs.reuters.com/data-dive/files/2015/02/Deportations022515.jpg)
http://blogs.reuters.com/data-dive/2015/02/25/tracking-obamas-deportation-numbers/

In that there are millions and millions of people eligible for deportation, Bush quietly focused on criminals and repeat offenders.  Obama expanded that policy and made it more public, even instituting DACA - basically making the long standing policy official.  In that we can't get through the backlog anyway, may as well make it  official that we are concentrating on those that we really want out.

And even so, we are deporting more and more people.  But most Americans have the impression that we have been lax.  Or that the border isn't secure.

But we have also added more and more border agents.  We have built more and more fencing.  We have spent more and more money on border security.

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/USBP.jpg&w=480)

And since then we have added still more and more border agents.  At one point the Senate passed a proposal to double the number again, so we would have enough border agents to place one every 250 feet on the southern border.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/01/bill-maher/bill-maher-said-immigration-bill-will-make-border-/

Of course, in the same period of time we have doubled the budget for the border patrol.  Since Clinton took office the budget has gone up 700%.
(https://7373-presscdn-0-43-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Patrol-Budget-dollars.png)

Meanwhile, less and less people are caught at the border.  Net immigration from Mexico is thought to be zero.  But people are still convinced that there is a crisis and that we need emergency measures. That we need to have the military patrol our streets to get rid of "them" and protect "us."  We have already tripled the border guard and multiplied the budget seven fold - how much more government do we need before Republicans are satisfied?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 10:49:04 am
So because we have grown accustomed to an illegally supported economy, we shouldn't get in it's way?

That has worked out well for us in the past (says the housing market). Just saying.

I understand the PR is atrocious, and a zillion other things about this plan in particular are ludicrous, however the reasoning for not doing it because it will upset the economy or something is just as lame.

Again, that's just my opinion. And I just tend to think it is reasoning like this that basically stops us from making progress on anything, anywhere, ever. The "because that's the way we have always done it" attitude is a disease in the workplace, I don't see it serving society any better outside the workplace.

I know I am going to get excoriated for this as a bigot or something... so have at it now...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 20, 2017, 11:26:38 am
Nothing you said was bigoted...

The reasons stated so far in this thread to not call out military troops to the streets of US cities to round up undocumented immigrants (that term encompassing illegal immigrants who hopped the border as well as those who came legally and just stayed) are:

1) Economic Disruption;

2) Bad PR;

3) Lack of effectiveness;

4) Cost; and

5) Risk of violations of citizen's civil rights.

As you rightfully pointed out, there are a zillion other things wrong with this plan.

You chose to focus on the economic argument Conan made.  Specifically, 1) we are accustomed to an "illegally" supported economy, and you feel this is 2) creating an artificial bubble, and 3) the only reason not to do it is inertia to change.  Before I address each of those, let me point out that none of them are a reason to deport millions of people.  The reasons given by Trump include: 

To stop a crime waive that doesn't exist.
To protect the children from things that don't exist.
To stop the Mexicans from taking our jobs when 95% of Americans are employed.
To stop the Mexicans from living off the government (which is paradoxical to the previous statement and untrue).
And because it's illegal.

I'm not arguing for open borders.  Few are.  What we are discussing is the resources devoted to and mechanism of immigration enforcement.  Presumably, you are in favor of increasing those resources still further for your stated reasons:

1) We are accustomed to an "illegally" supported economy.

Essentially, the statement is that the economy is generating a lot of wealth from undocumented immigrants so we don't want to change it.  Isn't that a rational position?  Certainly generating wealth isn't a reason to want to destroy the system.  And even if we did, one is hard pressed to find an economist who advocates for sudden massive fluctuations in an efficiently functioning market. Certainly arguing to "call out the troops" to destroy a segment of the market isn't rational in and of itself.

2) Bubble.

Comparing illegal immigration to the housing bubble is not an apt comparison.  The housing bubble was wealth based on speculation - John Q bought a house that cost more than 25% of his annual income (a warning point) and then Jane Doe bought it for an even a worse ratio.  As long as the pyramid scheme continued everything was great.  And the scheme was(is) supported by government subsidies that encourages home buyers to buy as much as they can (the more mortgage deduction you get!) and lenders to flip their loans as quickly as possible (transfers risk to the government and generates more transaction fees).   As soon as once cycle is delayed, things start to fall apart quickly.

Illegal immigration generates wealth directly from production - there is no speculation and no pyramid scheme required to support it.  If anything, the illegal immigration economy is less based on credit than the general economy. With no credit and no speculation, I'm not sure a bubble is even possible.

and 3) Inertia.

For all the reasons stated above, this isn't simply inertia. Furthermore, in defense of institutional inertia, sudden and dramatic shifts should demand dramatic reasons.  We simply don't have them here.
- - -


The easiest way to take care of a problem is usually on the supply side.  There are almost always less suppliers than there are consumers. They are easier to influence and often have more to lose.

Want to crack down on drug cartels? Create a legal market so consumers can get the supply.
Want to stop housing bubbles?  Requiring greater equity before the fed will guarantee a loan.
Want to limit illegal immigration - focus on the supply of jobs. 

11,000,000 are in the US because at least half of them are employed at legitimate businesses.  All the talk is on "rounding up" illegal immigrants and shipping them across the border. That's never stopped them from coming back before, it seems unlikely to be successful now.  What has stopped them?

They don't come when there are no jobs.  When we have more labor than jobs, Mexican immigration stalls dramatically.  So why not attack their jobs if we are serious?

Make an easy system for employers to verify legal status and put a system in place to verify that status when the work papers on file expire.  The fines can be substantial and grow with each offense ($250 to $10k per employee), they can result in jail time for managers.   Yet total fines in 2012 (last year I found data) was i the $12mil range, with less than 400 companies  being fined. The median fine was $11k. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/12/23/audits-illegal-immigrants/1787213/

Under our current system, we spent $138 million trying to enforce the employment laws, resulting in 339 companies being fined.  We spent ~ $5 Billion dollars trying to round up and deport illegal immigrants. Our efforts have doubled down again and again on the wack-a-mole strategy of deporting people, it hasn't worked.  Try to do something different maybe?

If we make it hard  for illegal immigrants to fine employment and we continue to focus on deporting criminal immigrants - we can actually get where many want us to be.  If we couple it with saner immigration laws, we could actually tackle the issue in a comprehensive way.  Sprinkle in some drug policy changes and even less would need to flee violence (taking away another reason for immigration).




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 12:23:43 pm
I'm with you on the supply side.

My point really was that we often let complacency get in the way of good decision making. You just took it several steps further by offering actual solutions. And I'm totally in agreement when it comes to supply side solutions. Apparently there are a lot of people out there not as concerned with the paper work as I am when we have a new hire. Else we wouldn't really be having this discussion I have a feeling.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 20, 2017, 01:09:14 pm
You can find my comments going back a long time on this -  IF illegal immigration were a real problem (which it is not - it is just the system that has evolved to allow companies to import cheap, slave labor waged workers) - the fix is simple.  Prosecute every CEO, President, VP of companies that hire them.  Prison times - at least one year per event.  And say, $1 million fine per worker/event.  In 3 weeks there would be no more illegals in the US.

The ongoing wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth is ignorant.  And Repube obstructionism has stopped 'immigration reform' for decades because they know that if there is a valid worker program, all their corporate buddies will have to treat immigrant labor decently and pay decent wages...much higher than the $1.50 an hour average John Pickle Company got away with paying his illegal conscripts - actually held as slaves in their compound.

Expand and make the HX-B program work the way it should.  Problem solved.  It really is trivial to "fix" this so-called problem.





Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2017, 07:32:09 am
It appears that Obama's deportation numbers were padded by re-defining what a deportation is.  For the first time, border turn backs were called deportations, according to the previous DHS director.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/12/deportations-come-mostly-from-border-dhs-chief-say/

And for those who don't trust the veracity of the Washington Times:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 22, 2017, 08:30:38 am
That's interesting and I wasn't aware of that, thanks for the info.  But it was not as flippant as the Washington Times article makes it seem:

Quote
Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.

Now, the vast majority of border crossers who are apprehended get fingerprinted and formally deported. The change began during the George W. Bush administration and accelerated under Obama. The policy stemmed in part from a desire to ensure that people who had crossed into the country illegally would have formal charges on their records.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

Essentially, under Bush and even more under Obama they cut back on "catch and release" and instead put the people  through the formal deportation process so they had charges on their records.  Ergo, they got counted in deportation stats.  So it wasn't an arbitrary change in the way the stats were kept.

So Obama's numbers WERE padded because he deported people who would previously have just been dumped over the border.  But he also cut way back on the "catch and release" that conservatives have complained about.  Either way, the number of people he "rounded up" was far less than it would appear at first glace.
- - - -

In a broader sense, I feel the immigration issue is so important to some people because it is a simple "us" vs "them."  The solution - we go after "them."  Whether it addresses any real threat, how it turns out economically, and whether it is the right thing to do is irrelevant. So long as we are going after "them,"  the "us" faction should be placated and focused less on issues that may have a more significant impact, but more nuanced solutions.

On Trump's newest memo - it introduces uncertainty but doesn't really help.  Was ICE and Border Patrol not already as busy as they could be?  So adding more people to the "priority" list really just bumps the previous priorities down the list. Meaning criminals are no longer actually the priority.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2017, 09:42:53 am
So because we have grown accustomed to an illegally supported economy, we shouldn't get in it's way?

That has worked out well for us in the past (says the housing market). Just saying.

I understand the PR is atrocious, and a zillion other things about this plan in particular are ludicrous, however the reasoning for not doing it because it will upset the economy or something is just as lame.

Again, that's just my opinion. And I just tend to think it is reasoning like this that basically stops us from making progress on anything, anywhere, ever. The "because that's the way we have always done it" attitude is a disease in the workplace, I don't see it serving society any better outside the workplace.

I know I am going to get excoriated for this as a bigot or something... so have at it now...

I get where you are coming from here.  I've always blanched at the logic that a problem seems too big or insurmountable, so just do nothing to solve it.

I've also always had a view of immigration that borders need to be sealed, we need to stop the flow of anchor babies, and stop people from crossing who are doing so only to take advantage of our social largesse.  I raise my eyebrows when I hear a commentator say: "The only crime this illegal immigrant is guilty of is possessing a fake green card".  Wait, we just stepped over "illegal immigrant" to say their "only" crime was something else. Illegal is illegal.

In other words, I've pretty much always taken the hard line conservative view on the issue of illegal immigration.  The problem with hard line conservitves, like hard line liberals, is they very seldom consider the unintended consequences of their actions.

My main point is we have somewhere around 5 to 10 million illegal immigrants who are functioning and contributing to our economy.  Are they paying all the taxes they should?  Likely not.  Do they put additional burden on the healthcare system, public safety, etc?  Yes.  Estimates are in the billions as to how much the issue of illegal immigration costs us on an annual basis.  But through their sales tax contributions and property tax paid on their behalf they technically are contributing to the funding mechanisms for public safety and city infrastructure- at least for the way these things are funded in Tulsa.

I've never had the chance to ask in illegal immigrant if they prefer to stay in the shadow economy or if they would like to file a 1040 every year, pay for health insurance, be able to get and repay student loans, etc.  My guess is many would like to be here without the worry they might be deported.  I can only guess that if paying taxes meant the dream of homeownership, SBA loans, or a college education were achievable that most illegal immigrants would have no problem doing so.

I simply wanted to point out our economy could be cast into turmoil if we lost these millions of illegal immigrants who are doing jobs our economy apparently needs.  CF was spot on with his comments about there not being enough native born supply to fill all jobs needed in our economy.

We have successfully managed to export the most menial of our manufacturing tasks offshore so we can continue to pay the same price we paid for consumer goods 20 years ago.  For at least the last century (and more likely since the abolition of slavery) we have depended on migrant labor for agriculture.  We do this partially to keep the prices low but by and large because we don't have the supply of native born Americans willing to do the tasks the immigrant population is currently doing.

I really don't think it's hyperbole to suggest if we cleared out all illegal immigrants in a large round up that our agriculture industry as we know it would collapse.  We simply do not have the supply of labor at ready to step in and take those jobs.  Even in times of higher unemployment, former bank tellers or computer programmers weren't exactly beating down doors to pick fruit or clean up cattle entrails in slaughter plants.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 22, 2017, 12:56:42 pm

Needs to be mandatory viewing.

https://www.facebook.com/AwarenessAct/videos/1295228900491644/


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on March 02, 2017, 12:28:25 am
Authorities Arrest 22-Year-Old Dreamer After She Speaks To Media

WASHINGTON ― Federal immigration authorities arrested a 22-year-old woman in Jackson, Mississippi, on Wednesday shortly after she spoke to the media about the detention of her family. Law enforcement had initially declined to arrest Daniela Vargas, who was previously granted deportation reprieve under the Obama administration’s deferred action program.

On Feb. 15, Vargas was half-asleep at home when Immigration and Custom Enforcement agents came for her family. Her father, a house painter, kissed her goodbye on his way to work and was apprehended in the driveway, Vargas told The Huffington Post last week. She says she never saw her brother, a construction worker who was also detained.

Vargas’ family came to the U.S. from Argentina over 15 years ago. She’d previously had protection under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program. The program now has an uncertain future under President Donald Trump.

When the agents arrived, Vargas had a problem: Her DACA status, which has to be renewed every two years, had expired ― and because of the high cost of renewal, $495, her application had only been received on Feb. 10. (Vargas provided HuffPost with a copy of her receipt.) Scared, Vargas went into her house, locked the door and hid in a closet for hours while she sobbed and called her mother. Eventually, she says, ICE agents forced their way in with a warrant, guns raised. The house was searched ― officers had previously found a gun, which Vargas said the family owned for protection ― and she was handcuffed. As local news reporters arrived, she was eventually released.

Agents declined to arrest Vargas at that time, she told HuffPost. Her father and brother were sent to a detention center in Louisiana, where they now await deportation. (An ICE spokesperson at the time described their detention as routine enforcement.)

When Vargas last spoke to HuffPost, in an email on Tuesday, she said she was scared she was being watched, and was moving around because she was “afraid to stay in one spot and be taken back to Argentina.”

Vargas told local news outlets about her story. On Wednesday, she spoke at a news conference organized by local immigration advocates to highlight immigrants’ contributions to the community, according to her attorney, Abby Peterson. Afterward, she was pulled over and arrested, and is now being processed by immigration authorities.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/authorities-detain-daniela-vargas-dreamer_us_58b724e8e4b023018c6c7abc



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2017, 12:57:14 pm
Trump.  The evil is strong in this one.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 04, 2017, 02:58:01 am
Authorities Arrest 22-Year-Old Dreamer After She Speaks To Media

WASHINGTON ― Federal immigration authorities arrested a 22-year-old woman in Jackson, Mississippi, on Wednesday shortly after she spoke to the media about the detention of her family. Law enforcement had initially declined to arrest Daniela Vargas, who was previously granted deportation reprieve under the Obama administration’s deferred action program.

On Feb. 15, Vargas was half-asleep at home when Immigration and Custom Enforcement agents came for her family. Her father, a house painter, kissed her goodbye on his way to work and was apprehended in the driveway, Vargas told The Huffington Post last week. She says she never saw her brother, a construction worker who was also detained.

Vargas’ family came to the U.S. from Argentina over 15 years ago. She’d previously had protection under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program. The program now has an uncertain future under President Donald Trump.

When the agents arrived, Vargas had a problem: Her DACA status, which has to be renewed every two years, had expired ― and because of the high cost of renewal, $495, her application had only been received on Feb. 10. (Vargas provided HuffPost with a copy of her receipt.) Scared, Vargas went into her house, locked the door and hid in a closet for hours while she sobbed and called her mother. Eventually, she says, ICE agents forced their way in with a warrant, guns raised. The house was searched ― officers had previously found a gun, which Vargas said the family owned for protection ― and she was handcuffed. As local news reporters arrived, she was eventually released.

Agents declined to arrest Vargas at that time, she told HuffPost. Her father and brother were sent to a detention center in Louisiana, where they now await deportation. (An ICE spokesperson at the time described their detention as routine enforcement.)

When Vargas last spoke to HuffPost, in an email on Tuesday, she said she was scared she was being watched, and was moving around because she was “afraid to stay in one spot and be taken back to Argentina.”

Vargas told local news outlets about her story. On Wednesday, she spoke at a news conference organized by local immigration advocates to highlight immigrants’ contributions to the community, according to her attorney, Abby Peterson. Afterward, she was pulled over and arrested, and is now being processed by immigration authorities.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/authorities-detain-daniela-vargas-dreamer_us_58b724e8e4b023018c6c7abc



She is apparently on the fast track on the "get the hell out" train. http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/daniela-vargas-dreamer-deportation-friday/index.html

Going to see lots of these sad stories.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on March 04, 2017, 10:38:48 am
She is apparently on the fast track on the "get the hell out" train. http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/us/daniela-vargas-dreamer-deportation-friday/index.html

Going to see lots of these sad stories.

Immigrant arrested by ICE after dropping daughter off at school, sending shockwaves through neighborhood

Romulo Avelica-Gonzalez had just dropped off his 12-year-old daughter Tuesday morning at her Lincoln Heights school when two black, unmarked vehicles surrounded his car.

The arrest so shook the school, a public charter called Academia Avance, that administrators held an assembly Tuesday afternoon to discuss what happened and to ease fears. The school’s executive director, Ricardo Mireles, has since ordered his teachers to talk to students whose parents are here illegally about creating a family plan in case they are detained or deported.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 06, 2017, 09:26:24 am
Some people don't care because it doesn't effect them directly - they aren't an immigrant or refugee, so who cares?  But this is far bigger than "illegal Mexicans" or the exaggerated threat from anyone who is Moooslim.  International connections touch a huge segment of our economy.  Even a well intentioned "ban" done in a chaotic or hostile manner is a bad deal for the US economy.

Two sample consequences of the sudden anti-immigrant/nativist shift:

1)  The Tourism trade board is not happy.  Preliminary numbers indicate that travel to the US is significantly down  (Commerce department official numbers pending).  Some people have been outright told they aren't welcome, but many more feel like hostility towards foreigners is more widespread and are just not coming.

Trump’s Travel Ban Threatens to Deter Foreign Tourists From U.S. (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-03-06/trump-s-travel-ban-threatens-to-deter-foreign-tourists-from-u-s)

US tourism may have taken a hit from Trump's travel ban (http://www.marketplace.org/2017/03/06/economy/president-trump-s-travel-ban-was-introduced-there-are-signs-us-tourism-may-take)

Trump slump? US tourism industry fears downturn (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39121276)

Sell Short U.S. Tourism After Trump Ban (http://www.investopedia.com/news/sell-short-us-tourism-after-trump-ban-aal-mar/)

2) Education officials are also getting concerned that foreign students may no longer see the US as "the" destination for high education.  Foreign students usually pay sticker price and we have created a self sustaining system - we have the best universities because we have the best faculty, staff, and students because we have the best universities.  We break that cycle at our own peril.

Drop in foreign applications worries US engineering schools. (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/drop-foreign-applicants-worries-us-engineering-schools)

Trump's International Policies Could Have Lasting Effects On Higher Ed (http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/03/05/517931292/trumps-international-policies-could-have-lasting-effects-on-higher-ed)

Why we need international students (http://www.csmonitor.com/Technology/Breakthroughs-Voices/2017/0217/Why-we-need-international-students)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2017, 01:47:50 pm
CF,

Reality just isn't a big point for the alt-right Fake News Clown Show.  That 5th grade graduation wore off so many years ago, the last haunting vestiges of the memory have already flickered out.  It's all they can do to remember the sound bite catch phrases - and when there are too many of them, some go by the wayside until drummed up and recycled to incite once again.  Today's;  Mooslim!   and   'Murica!



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 01:50:30 pm
All you Black folks, you must go
All you Mexicans, you must go
And all you poor folks, you must go
Muslims and gays, boy, we hate your ways
So all you bad folks, you must go


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: rebound on March 06, 2017, 04:14:10 pm
All you Black folks, you must go
All you Mexicans, you must go
And all you poor folks, you must go
Muslims and gays, boy, we hate your ways
So all you bad folks, you must go

Had to look that up.  Good stuff...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 04:23:39 pm
Had to look that up.  Good stuff...

It's the first Trump protest song.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2017, 04:25:30 pm
All you Black folks, you must go
All you Mexicans, you must go
And all you poor folks, you must go
Muslims and gays, boy, we hate your ways
So all you bad folks, you must go


Not a fan of rap, but....


Language alert - you probably will be offended if ya don't like some gritty talk.  If so, don't click.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/watch-a-tribe-called-quests-powerful-we-the-people-video-w451057


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on March 09, 2017, 02:16:17 pm
The states of Hawaii, Oregon, Washington and New York have all sued over Trump’s new travel ban due to go in place on March 16th. Washington is also asking that the existing injunction be applied to this new ban which seems very likely. Question, why is Trump again asking for 90 days? I thought that was time to reassess the vetting process? Did they do nothing in the 40 days since the first order was written? Doesn’t Trump care about all those innocent Americans dying in the streets, being killed every day by terrorist refugees? Is he lazy?

January 21st, first day in Office
January 29th, Trump signs order banning travel from 7 countries and all refugees immediately
February 3rd, Courts start to approve Injunctions block travel ban
February 9th, Trump loses appeal of injunctions
February 10th to March 5th, Trump fiddles around and does nothing to protect America for more than three weeks.
March 6th, new travel ban offered impacting all refugees and travel from 6 countries, to take effect March 16th
March 8th, State of Hawaii sues to block new order
March 9th, Oregon and New York join Hawaii’s lawsuit, Washington asks court to extended previous injunction to the new order.

This only thing worse than this stupid Muslim ban circus is the Trumpcare plan that just about no one wants. Conservatives, Libertarians, Liberals, Doctors, Retired People, Insurance Companies and Hospitals have all come out against the plan. And that’s before it’s even scored by the CBO.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on March 09, 2017, 04:32:03 pm
Before it became the post-apocalyptic Falcon Crest, the Fox network series "The Last Man On Earth" was a good source of apolitical, morbid humor.
The episode "Got Milk" shifted gears a bit, and really pissed off the conservative media.

http://cdn.mrctv.org/sites/default/files/videos/converted/14887972715.mp4


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2017, 03:15:55 am
The states of Hawaii, Oregon, Washington and New York have all sued over Trump’s new travel ban due to go in place on March 16th. Washington is also asking that the existing injunction be applied to this new ban which seems very likely. Question, why is Trump again asking for 90 days? I thought that was time to reassess the vetting process? Did they do nothing in the 40 days since the first order was written? Doesn’t Trump care about all those innocent Americans dying in the streets, being killed every day by terrorist refugees? Is he lazy?

January 21st, first day in Office
January 29th, Trump signs order banning travel from 7 countries and all refugees immediately
February 3rd, Courts start to approve Injunctions block travel ban
February 9th, Trump loses appeal of injunctions
February 10th to March 5th, Trump fiddles around and does nothing to protect America for more than three weeks.
March 6th, new travel ban offered impacting all refugees and travel from 6 countries, to take effect March 16th
March 8th, State of Hawaii sues to block new order
March 9th, Oregon and New York join Hawaii’s lawsuit, Washington asks court to extended previous injunction to the new order.

This only thing worse than this stupid Muslim ban circus is the Trumpcare plan that just about no one wants. Conservatives, Libertarians, Liberals, Doctors, Retired People, Insurance Companies and Hospitals have all come out against the plan. And that’s before it’s even scored by the CBO.


Going to try to see if they sell this in 55 gallon drums.

(http://i.imgur.com/NOb6xVt.jpg)

It's going to be a long 8 years, and I am having trouble believing you can last 8 months. Oh, decent job numbers came out today (you should be thrilled if you believed and were happy with those stats when Barry was president), and Hillary has a new haircut.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2017, 03:54:21 am
Lots of folks bidding on building the wall...

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/miranda/la-et-cam-california-border-wall-construction-20170310-story.html


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on March 11, 2017, 10:49:22 am
Oh, decent job numbers came out today (you should be thrilled if you believed and were happy with those stats when Barry was president)

Happy to help you catch up:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/03/10/19-times-trump-called-the-jobs-numbers-fake-before-they-made-him-look-good/



Lots of folks bidding on building the wall...

Laid-off TSA workers and Coast Guardsmen will be thrilled with that new job.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2017/0308/Trump-budget-borrows-from-Coast-Guard-TSA-to-pay-for-wall


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on March 11, 2017, 12:50:22 pm
Happy to help you catch up:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/03/10/19-times-trump-called-the-jobs-numbers-fake-before-they-made-him-look-good/



Laid-off TSA workers and Coast Guardsmen will be thrilled with that new job.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2017/0308/Trump-budget-borrows-from-Coast-Guard-TSA-to-pay-for-wall

I'm beginning to see a pattern here with the counselor....he's up at 3am posting on Tulsa Now.... I wonder who else has a bad habit of flinging poo around on the internet all hours of the ni....oh, nevermind.

 ;D


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2017, 03:15:47 pm
I'm beginning to see a pattern here with the counselor....he's up at 3am posting on Tulsa Now.... I wonder who else has a bad habit of flinging poo around on the internet all hours of the ni....oh, nevermind.

 ;D

Um. Never occurred to you that I have to work all hours because I am busy, but find reading sore loserman postings a pleasant distraction?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 11, 2017, 07:24:02 pm
Lots of folks bidding on building the wall...

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/miranda/la-et-cam-california-border-wall-construction-20170310-story.html


No doubt...there is lots of stupid out there...



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on March 11, 2017, 07:30:42 pm
Um. Never occurred to you that I have to work all hours because I am busy, but find reading sore loserman postings a pleasant distraction?

Nice to know I can still aggravate you, counselor.   8)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 13, 2017, 09:41:58 am
Um. Never occurred to you that I have to work all hours because I am busy, but find reading sore loserman postings a pleasant distraction?


Sore loserman...you mean like the 8 years of lying that Trump did on a birth certificate??



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 15, 2017, 12:50:23 am

Sore loserman...you mean like the 8 years of lying that Trump did on a birth certificate??


That was pushed by Hillary Clinton? That birth certificate issue?



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 15, 2017, 08:36:42 am
That was pushed by Hillary Clinton? That birth certificate issue?




All of it goes back to Kenneth Starr and David Brock.  As they have admitted and recanted and even written books about.  But the RWRE sound bite world will never know about that...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on March 15, 2017, 09:03:58 am

Sore loserman...you mean like the 8 years of lying that Trump did on a birth certificate??



Turns out that guy ended up being the President, so there is that...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on March 15, 2017, 09:06:26 am
Turns out that guy ended up being the President, so there is that...

Yep.  It proves that many Americans are gullible enough to let Cheeto Jesus influence them to vote against their own interests.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 15, 2017, 10:08:54 am
Turns out that guy ended up being the President, so there is that...


With a little help from his friends....  Putin.

Anointing doesn't equate to electing.

Kinda like Bush's first "election".



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on March 15, 2017, 04:52:57 pm
And the travel ban is dead again. Blocked by the courts, again, the day before it was to take effect.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on March 15, 2017, 06:05:34 pm
And the travel ban is dead again. Blocked by the courts, again, the day before it was to take effect.

Ready for the shitstorm of tweets now.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 15, 2017, 08:49:25 pm
And the travel ban is dead again. Blocked by the courts, again, the day before it was to take effect.

Yay. We beat da Trump!!!

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/03/gay-robin.gif)

I guess that makes Hillary president.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 20, 2017, 06:33:51 pm



Yay. We beat da Trump!!!

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/03/gay-robin.gif)

I guess that makes Hillary president.

Glad you're being so adult about it.





Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 20, 2017, 08:16:31 pm
Turns out that guy ended up being the President, so there is that...


Yeah.... 19.3% of the people in this country are that special kind of stupid....there is that....




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on March 20, 2017, 08:46:28 pm

Yeah.... 19.3% of the people in this country are that special kind of stupid....there is that....




He may be President in title...but that's about it.  Nothing about this guy even remotely is "Presidential".


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on March 23, 2017, 12:51:21 am
He may be President in title...but that's about it.  Nothing about this guy even remotely is "Presidential".

I agree. Being "Presidential" means not keeping your promises that you campaign on after you take office. How dare Trump do those things. I love stopping in here to see all the new, okay not new but repeated, whines coming from the same group of 3-4 people.

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/66/6638323d7f458aed5f17af12cf2aafb1f11c4747557c2304833a69dead8b8957.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 23, 2017, 09:01:38 am
I agree. Being "Presidential" means not keeping your promises that you campaign on after you take office. How dare Trump do those things. I love stopping in here to see all the new, okay not new but repeated, whines coming from the same group of 3-4 people.


Lol...!!



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on April 22, 2017, 12:45:10 pm
Its about to get real and fast for sanctuary cities. This is from a center-right website, so take that into account.

Quote
Today, the Department of Justice sent the attached letters to nine jurisdictions which were identified in a May 2016 report by the Department of Justice’s Inspector General as having laws that potentially violate 8 U.S.C. § 1373…

    The letters remind the recipient jurisdictions that, as a condition for receiving certain financial year 2016 funding from the Department of Justice, each of these jurisdictions agreed to provide documentation and an opinion from legal counsel validating that they are in compliance with Section 1373. The Department of Justice expects each of these jurisdictions to comply with this grant condition and to submit all documentation to the Office of Justice Programs by June 30, 2017, the deadline imposed by the grant agreement.

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/04/22/doj-just-sent-letters-sanctuary-cities-wasnt-fan-mail/


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on April 22, 2017, 12:53:14 pm
Its about to get real and fast for sanctuary cities. This is from a center-right website, so take that into account.

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/04/22/doj-just-sent-letters-sanctuary-cities-wasnt-fan-mail/

It may be just hot air:

President Donald Trump's executive order withholding funding from communities that limit cooperation with immigration authorities applies to a small pot of grant money, not the hundreds of millions of dollars that local governments say is at stake, a lawyer with the Department of Justice said Friday.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Challenge-Trump-Sanctuary-City-Order-Court-419465024.html


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on April 22, 2017, 01:16:59 pm
I agree, but withholding that money also symbolic. Kinda makes people have to take sides with something real at stake. Those favoring sanctuary cities, and the willful refusal to cooperate with federal immigration law, will be smoked out.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 22, 2017, 06:21:50 pm

Deported DACA Recipient Sues Trump Administration for Unlawfully Withholding Information (https://www.nilc.org/2017/04/18/deported-daca-recipient-sues-for-information/)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on April 22, 2017, 11:00:58 pm

Deported DACA Recipient Sues Trump Administration for Unlawfully Withholding Information (https://www.nilc.org/2017/04/18/deported-daca-recipient-sues-for-information/)


Its a FOIA lawsuit. Read the allegations.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on April 23, 2017, 09:39:47 am
Its a FOIA lawsuit. Read the allegations.

And I believe I read an article recently that our transparent Obama admin spent a record amount of money fending off FOIA lawsuits his last year in office.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on April 23, 2017, 12:55:36 pm
But read the allegations of the action at the below link. Tells the whole story, albeit from the deportee's point of view. There was no random pick up and deportation.

www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FOIA-Complaint-JMMB-2017-04-18.pdf


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on April 23, 2017, 01:04:27 pm
But read the allegations of the action at the below link. Tells the whole story, albeit from the deportee's point of view. There was no random pick up and deportation.

www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/FOIA-Complaint-JMMB-2017-04-18.pdf


15. USCIS granted Mr. Montes deferred action under DACA in 2014, and he successfully renewed his DACA status in 2016 for another two years, expiring in 2018.
16. Mr. Montes also obtained an Employment Authorization Document (“EAD”) issued under the DACA program. The EAD issued to Mr. Montes is the type of EAD that is granted only to DACA recipients. The “C33” category corresponds to DACA.
17. On or about February 17, 2017, Mr. Montes was walking to a taxi stand in Calexico, California after leaving a friend’s house when a law enforcement official— seemingly a CBP officer—on a bicycle approached him and began to question him. It was approximately 10:00 p.m. when he was stopped. The officer asked Mr. Montes in an aggressive manner for identification, but Mr. Montes had accidentally left his wallet, which contained his California identification card and EAD, in a friend’s car. The officer then called another agent or officer to the scene. Mr. Montes was scared and confused that he had been stopped and felt threatened by the officer.
18. A second officer arrived at the scene and placed him in a vehicle. That officer then drove Mr. Montes to a station at the port of entry in or near Calexico. There, he was detained, questioned, and asked to sign certain documents, which may have been in English. Although Mr. Montes speaks and reads English, Spanish is his preferred language.
19. Mr. Montes was not provided with the opportunity to see an immigration judge, seek the assistance of counsel, or review the contents of the documents that he was forced to sign. He was also not provided a copy of any of those documents and is unaware of the legal basis for his physical removal.
20. Upon information and belief, CBP was able to determine if Mr. Montes had DACA status before he was physically removed. Mr. Montes has had minor traffic offenses and a single misdemeanor offense, none of which would have disqualified Mr. Montes from DACA.
21. At approximately 1:00 a.m. or later, CBP officers walked Mr. Montes to the U.S.-Mexico border (near Mexicali, Baja California) and physically removed him from the United States despite his DACA status.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on April 23, 2017, 01:43:30 pm
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18058059_10206668633793147_2892826596550300175_n.jpg?oh=5770a6cc59bf5978d75cc2e75dbe184a&oe=59850D0F)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on May 03, 2017, 04:10:39 pm
Someone needs to get the Latino population on board with hating Trump. Warning: poll

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/shock-poll-hispanic-support-for-trump-increases-55-since-election/article/2622041


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: sauerkraut on May 04, 2017, 11:59:05 am
Illegal aliens are a huge burden on a city-  and they take jobs that legal people could have. The cost of illegal aliens in the  D/FW MetroPlex area  for just schools is one BILLION Dollars, Parkland hospital does one "anchor baby" per hour on average. Tulsa numbers should be lower but it's still a burden on our city. The border wall would be part of a system of border security in combo with more guards, electronic sensors, cameras and the like. The real problem are gangs, drug lords, and terrorists coming across. A nation has to have secure borders and we must know who is in our country & why. I would favor military troops on the border, or have the border area used as a military training ground.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2017, 02:04:53 pm
Illegal aliens are a huge burden on a city-  and they take jobs that legal people could have. The cost of illegal aliens in the  D/FW MetroPlex area  for just schools is one BILLION Dollars, Parkland hospital does one "anchor baby" per hour on average. Tulsa numbers should be lower but it's still a burden on our city. The border wall would be part of a system of border security in combo with more guards, electronic sensors, cameras and the like. The real problem are gangs, drug lords, and terrorists coming across. A nation has to have secure borders and we must know who is in our country & why. I would favor military troops on the border, or have the border area used as a military training ground.


You really need to go back and quit trying to adult...it ain't working for ya!   If it was, you would know that everything you just spewed was a Fake Fox News lie.

As for cost, for just 1 little example of the contribution they make - have paid in well over $10 billion a year for the last decade or two into Social Security so YOU can continue to get paid.  Totally over $130 billion!  And they will never see a penny of it when they reach retirement age.  So, they are supporting your lazy a$$ right now - even as you spew your lies.  Huh, how about that....?


As for taking our jobs - well, the UFW has been advertising for over a decade for people to come take their jobs.  They will train them, place them in a job, and then leave that job to them.  Steven Colbert went to a farm to check it out.  Up to that point, there had been 16 people take them up on the offer.   16.    Where were YOU sauerkraut??    Sitting in front of your monitor hypocriting away??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1T75jBYeCs&feature=youtu.be



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on May 08, 2017, 01:30:20 am
Texas has banned sanctuary cities. No word on whether a civil action has been brought in California or Hawaii yet.

https://twitter.com/AD_WHITMAN/status/861406016616968194


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 07:24:26 am
Texas has banned sanctuary cities. No word on whether a civil action has been brought in California or Hawaii yet.

https://twitter.com/AD_WHITMAN/status/861406016616968194


It's about time...!


Their hypocrisy on "local control" is truly astounding in scope and magnitude!



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on May 08, 2017, 10:21:28 am

It's about time...!


Their hypocrisy on "local control" is truly astounding in scope and magnitude!



I know. Reminds me how no one ever gave a crap about the 10 commandments monument in Haskell. They let those people retain "local control".


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 11:11:55 am
I know. Reminds me how no one ever gave a crap about the 10 commandments monument in Haskell. They let those people retain "local control".


Big difference between breaking the law - 10 Commandments in a public space...


And the spewing about local control for decades and then taking it away when it doesn't go ones way, as they complain about so much.   Hypocrisy.


But I can see how the RWRE would be more likely to give a pass to law breakers - we even elected the latest guy based on promises of breaking not just Federal CFR laws, but international treaty law!   Getting a twofor there...  (Not just allowing torture, but encouraging it.)




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on May 08, 2017, 08:53:47 pm

Big difference between breaking the law - 10 Commandments in a public space...


And the spewing about local control for decades and then taking it away when it doesn't go ones way, as they complain about so much.   Hypocrisy.


But I can see how the RWRE would be more likely to give a pass to law breakers - we even elected the latest guy based on promises of breaking not just Federal CFR laws, but international treaty law!   Getting a twofor there...  (Not just allowing torture, but encouraging it.)


I agree there is a big difference between violating federal immigration law which leads to illegals killing/raping Americans and a 10 commandments monument which leads to wetness in a small group of people's underwear.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 09:17:13 am
I agree there is a big difference between violating federal immigration law which leads to illegals killing/raping Americans and a 10 commandments monument which leads to wetness in a small group of people's underwear.


Lol.  Nice try.  You still are kinda out of practice...

Well, Trump DID tell you they are murderers and rapists, so there is that...

Couple of interesting points that would certainly point the other direction.  In the past two and a half decades both legal and illegal immigration has gone up significantly, but crime has declined.  The number of illegals rose from about 3.5 million in 1990 to estimated 12+ million now.   At the same time overall crime rates are dropping.  400% increase in illegals - drop in crime rates.

As of 2013, according to the Bureau of Justice Services, of the 1,574,700 prisoners detained in state and federal prisons in 2013, 73,665 were foreign born (not all here illegally, either).  That makes it 4.6% of the prison population, versus a total immigrant population of 13.3%, both legal and undocumented.  Additionally, urther, according to an American Immigration Council analysis, 1.6% of all immigrant men aged 18 to 39 were imprisoned, while the US-born rate was twice has high, at 3.3%.


But then again, there are all those pesky facts that just trip Trump up every step of the way....   Far lower rate than American born.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?_r=0

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/327229-crimes-by-illegal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real

https://qz.com/895624/how-much-crime-is-committed-by-immigrants/



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Breadburner on June 04, 2017, 06:37:28 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ObbTX_nMGk


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 05, 2017, 08:33:51 am
I agree there is a big difference between violating federal immigration law which leads to illegals killing/raping Americans and a 10 commandments monument which leads to wetness in a small group of people's underwear.


And a big difference between violating federal immigration law by allowing people who hire them a pass every step of the way and actually doing something to solve the problem. 

It's always easy to attack the poor. 

But going after the people who create the problem to start with...well, that would mean doing something to their golf buddies....



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 05, 2017, 08:41:36 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ObbTX_nMGk


Keep on spinning...you may get it right some day.  Although I am kinda starting to lose hope for you....

Try watching the real report she made.

And then, if one is astute, one can see the police allowing people through the roped off area to be photographed by CNN.  But hey, that doesn't fit the RWRE script now, does it?

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-rebuts-claim-they-set-up-a-pro-muslim-shot-during-london-aftermath/





Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 10:03:13 am
And the travel ban is dead again. Blocked by the courts, again, the day before it was to take effect.

Something happened to the ban today. Can you help us with that?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDQk9oNXcAIeMPa.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Townsend on June 26, 2017, 11:19:46 am
Something happened to the ban today. Can you help us with that?


Is it helpful for you and the people you care about?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on June 26, 2017, 12:00:44 pm

Interesting background on Trumps mobster role model:

http://www.newsweek.com/john-dean-frightened-trump-over-his-head-629055



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 12:40:32 pm
Is it helpful for you and the people you care about?

Yes. Caring about national security and protecting everyone from people that come to this country and harm us is something I support. I know those concepts are troubling to you.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 01:30:21 pm
Yes. Caring about national security and protecting everyone from people that come to this country and harm us is something I support. I know those concepts are troubling to you.

Can you tell me how many Americans have been killed by immigrants and travelers from the banned countries?

Number Killed = X

X < 1

If that math isn't too hard for you.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 01:40:29 pm
Can you tell me how many Americans have been killed by immigrants and travelers from the banned countries?

Number Killed = X

X < 1

If that math isn't too hard for you.

You're from the "let's wait until 1000 are killed by people from known terror nations before we should act" school. Never knew you had such a woody for Somali immigrants. And by the way, I know those 11 weren't killed, but off the top of my head something about a Somali and a knife attack in Ohio rings a bell.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 02:02:00 pm
You're from the "let's wait until 1000 are killed by people from known terror nations before we should act" school. Never knew you had such a woody for Somali immigrants. And by the way, I know those 11 weren't killed, but off the top of my head something about a Somali and a knife attack in Ohio rings a bell.

Must suck to live in such constant fear all the time.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 02:15:22 pm
Must suck to live in such constant fear all the time.

Not living in fear, but nice pivot. I am enjoying the constant WINNING! :)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 02:27:03 pm
Not living in fear, but nice pivot. I am enjoying the constant WINNING! :)


Only a scared little bigot links to racist garbage like this twitter feed like you do. We all know who you are. Snowflake.
What is Obama talking about in this clip?

https://twitter.com/President1Trump/status/878747365657767937

Here's the feed's latest post:
Quote
A Lesson To The West! Islam Is Satans Army And They Want To Kill You!

Some nice wholesome images from that feed:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDQ9yNDUQAAuehB.jpg)



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: BKDotCom on June 26, 2017, 02:36:14 pm
You're from the "let's wait until 1000 are killed by people from known terror nations before we should act" school. Never knew you had such a woody for Somali immigrants. And by the way, I know those 11 weren't killed, but off the top of my head something about a Somali and a knife attack in Ohio rings a bell.

How do you feel about responsible gun legislation?
Far more people are killed by mentally ill American's with guns.

Only a scared little bigot links to racist garbage like this twitter feed like you do. We all know who you are. Snowflake.

Nice pivot and namecalling


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 02:40:48 pm
How do you feel about responsible gun legislation?
Far more people are killed by mentally ill American's with guns.

I'm okay with it. I was okay with the Supremes decision today too.

I did find this common sense plan and effective use of money to deal with illegal immigration. Swake would be pleased.

http://freebeacon.com/culture/feds-spend-20000-musical-illegal-immigrant-lesbian/


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: rebound on June 26, 2017, 02:54:49 pm
I'm okay with it. I was okay with the Supremes decision today too.

I did find this common sense plan and effective use of money to deal with illegal immigration. Swake would be pleased.

http://freebeacon.com/culture/feds-spend-20000-musical-illegal-immigrant-lesbian/

That could be seriously funny, but mimes? Really?  I've never understood the mime thing.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 02:58:18 pm
I'm okay with it. I was okay with the Supremes decision today too.

I did find this common sense plan and effective use of money to deal with illegal immigration. Swake would be pleased.

http://freebeacon.com/culture/feds-spend-20000-musical-illegal-immigrant-lesbian/

Better that than a $680 billion tax cut to the top 2% of wage earners that drops healthcare for 22 million people. (per today's CBO score)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2017, 03:09:38 pm
Better that than a $680 billion tax cut to the top 2% of wage earners that drops healthcare for 22 million people. (per today's CBO score)

I support the tax cut and don't care about the CBO. How's that sound. Now back to immigration.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on June 26, 2017, 03:17:23 pm
Better that than a $680 billion tax cut to the top 2% of wage earners that drops healthcare for 22 million people. (per today's CBO score)

You mean that 22 million people aren't threatened by force of financial penalty to purchase. Your welcome.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 26, 2017, 03:20:01 pm
Yes. Caring about national security and protecting everyone from people that come to this country and harm us is something I support. I know those concepts are troubling to you.


You keep falling into every trap Fake Fox News puts out there for you.  We have the most rigorous, exhaustive, comprehensive, and most importantly - the most effective vetting process of any country in the world.  The big problem we have is local home grown self-proclaimed radical Christian terrorists - right wing extremists with guns - who actually do the kind of killing you are afraid radical Muslims are going to do here.  By orders of magnitude more.

Where is the right wing extremist hysteria for that??



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 03:21:22 pm
I support the tax cut and don't care about the CBO. How's that sound. Now back to immigration.

I can guarantee you that far more lives will be lost due to 22 million people losing healthcare coverage in order to give your good wealthy Christian donkey a tax break than ever could be killed by terrorists.

Before Obamacare something like 50k people a year died due to lack of access to healthcare.
Zero people ever have been killed due to terrorist from these seven countries.

But let’s be sure we are working on all the right things, right?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 03:23:56 pm
You mean that 22 million people aren't threatened by force of financial penalty to purchase. Your welcome.

Please.

This is going to be an epic disaster for the Republican Party over the long term. Lots of commercials with dead kids and the elderly kicked out of nursing homes.

But we gotta stop them evil mooslims from killen’ good white people, right?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 26, 2017, 03:29:48 pm
I'm okay with it. I was okay with the Supremes decision today too.

I did find this common sense plan and effective use of money to deal with illegal immigration. Swake would be pleased.

http://freebeacon.com/culture/feds-spend-20000-musical-illegal-immigrant-lesbian/


I'm sure you are fine with it, but if given the choice of one or the other, I would much rather spend that $20,000 on that than another $1.5 million this week for another Trump vacation to his resort in Florida.  Save the extra million and a half.

Or this years $175 million or so that Trump is gonna spend on vacation weekends - at the same time he wants to cut $140 million from public broadcasting...well, that is such a no-brainer that even the extremists should be able to figure it out.  But they haven't.  And apparently can't.

Where is your outrage on wasting $1.5 million a week on his vacations?   Also, still waiting on just one teeny, weeny, itsby, bitsy condemnation on Turmp's pedophilia...at very least some lip service in consideration of the fact you have direct female descendants.  I guess you are still ok with that, though??




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 26, 2017, 03:34:38 pm
You mean that 22 million people aren't threatened by force of financial penalty to purchase. Your welcome.


Ahhh...deflection!!  Try to rationalize the harming of 22 million and killing of 50,000 per year by saying what a financial relief it is gonna be to them to not have to have health insurance... just so long as the "right people" get an extra $680 billion!!  I am sure that will "trickle down" and benefit those 22 million much more than health insurance ever would.




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on June 26, 2017, 03:39:56 pm

Ahhh...deflection!!  Try to rationalize the harming of 22 million and killing of 50,000 per year by saying what a financial relief it is gonna be to them to not have to have health insurance... just so long as the "right people" get an extra $680 billion!!  I am sure that will "trickle down" and benefit those 22 million much more than health insurance ever would.




Killing 50,000 per year. No hyperbole here. He speaks the truth.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: rebound on June 26, 2017, 04:34:05 pm
Please.

This is going to be an epic disaster for the Republican Party over the long term. Lots of commercials with dead kids and the elderly kicked out of nursing homes.

But we gotta stop them evil mooslims from killen’ good white people, right?


Exactly.  And if the cost wasn't so high, I'd be all over letting this thing pass and dragging the GOP down the hole with it when it craters.  But in good conscience I can't go that far.   Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what I think, anyway.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 26, 2017, 05:12:19 pm
Killing 50,000 per year. No hyperbole here. He speaks the truth.

Sorry. I didn't recall the number incorrectly.  It was 45,000.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on June 26, 2017, 08:33:56 pm
So now, Trump thinks the courts offered a 9-0 decision.

What a buffoon.  He doesn't even know how the SC works.

“I am also particularly gratified that the Supreme Court’s decision was 9-0.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/339476-trump-lauds-supreme-court-order-on-travel-ban-as-clear-victory


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: BKDotCom on June 26, 2017, 09:50:21 pm
So now, Trump thinks the courts offered a 9-0 decision.

What a buffoon.  He doesn't even know how the SC works.

“I am also particularly gratified that the Supreme Court’s decision was 9-0.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/339476-trump-lauds-supreme-court-order-on-travel-ban-as-clear-victory

"Clear Victory" (https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/clear-victory-president-trump-muslim-ban-20-hardly)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Breadburner on June 27, 2017, 05:31:04 am
Lol...Tears still flowing.....!!!!


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: BKDotCom on June 27, 2017, 07:12:02 am
Lol...Tears still flowing.....!!!!

Trump's or those loosing health care?

Edit:  you know how the media completely missed the mark on trump's voter base and appeal during the campaign and election?
You're completely missing the mark on why the trump resistance want's him gone.   Labeling those against Trump's policies as "snowflakes" is grade school bullying 101 and completely non-constructive.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 08:17:09 am
Killing 50,000 per year. No hyperbole here. He speaks the truth.



Real numbers from CBO on proven past history - where they are trying to take us back to.  You don't understand history much, do you..?

But that's ok...  all ya gotta remember is the script and the chant... "Trump!"




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 08:19:34 am
Sorry. I didn't recall the number incorrectly.  It was 45,000.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/


I saw the 50k from a different place that was CBO number....

Don't matter - 50k versus 45k...it's just semantics for the RWRE to rationalize and parse as if directly killing 45k was SOOO much better than 50k.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 08:22:32 am
Trump's or those loosing health care?

Edit:  you know how the media completely missed the mark on trump's voter base and appeal during the campaign and election?
You're completely missing the mark on why the trump resistance want's him gone.   Labeling those against Trump's policies as "snowflakes" is grade school bullying 101 and completely non-constructive.



More than that...check his entire post history - most likely to agree with Trump's pedophilia activities.  Next to guido, who can't even bring himself to condemn that even though he has daughter(s).




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on June 27, 2017, 09:39:23 am


More than that...check his entire post history - most likely to agree with Trump's pedophilia activities.  Next to guido, who can't even bring himself to condemn that even though he has daughter(s).




I'm pretty sure those two have weekly sleepovers.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 09:51:41 am
I'm pretty sure those two have weekly sleepovers.


Be nice.  But acerbic!!



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: rebound on June 27, 2017, 10:00:36 am
Labeling those against Trump's policies as "snowflakes" is grade school bullying 101 and completely non-constructive.

That has become the norm, or at least accepted, on the GOP side for years.  Trump has simply brought to the fore again with "Crooked Hillary", and all that.  But the guy that really got it going was Rush Limbaugh.  Remember "Feminazis"?   It's much easier for the simple-minded to repeat a slogan than to discuss specifics.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 10:07:40 am
That has become the norm, or at least accepted, on the GOP side for years.  Trump has simply brought to the fore again with "Crooked Hillary", and all that.  But the guy that really got it going was Rush Limbaugh.  Remember "Feminazis"?   It's much easier for the simple-minded to repeat a slogan than to discuss specifics.




It's the playbook of the RWRE - sound bite followed by immediate leap to name calling.  The minions - intellectually bankrupt and mentally deficient - have picked it up and run with it.   Note how Breadburner responds, if ever.  Since that is as far as they go, they have no actual basis for anything they say, let alone facts... other than the plaintive bleat of parroting what emanates from Rupert, Koch Brothers, and Fellow Travelers.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 27, 2017, 11:07:23 am
Exactly.  And if the cost wasn't so high, I'd be all over letting this thing pass and dragging the GOP down the hole with it when it craters.  But in good conscience I can't go that far.   Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what I think, anyway.


This bill is not a healthcare bill. At its core, it’s a tax cut.

This bill does the following:
Cuts $772 billion from Medicaid for the poor, disabled and elderly.
Cuts $408 billion from insurance subsidies for the working poor

It replaces that $1.2 trillion in cuts with a meaningless $107 billion in spending to reduce premiums.

It then removes $210 billion in insurance penalties paid by companies and individuals
And the big one, cuts taxes for the top 2% of wage earners by $541 billion.

This at is core cuts 1.2 trillion in healthcare for the poor, working poor, disabled and elderly in order to give a $541 billion tax cut to the wealthiest Americans.

This isn’t going to help access to healthcare, that is a contemptable lie. It’s going gut healthcare and give a tax break to the wealthy.(https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/cbofiles/images/pubs-images/52xxx/52849-land-figure1.png)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 11:12:09 am

Exactly.  Like we been sayin'...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: BKDotCom on June 27, 2017, 11:48:49 am
sound bite followed by immediate leap to name calling.  The minions - intellectually bankrupt and mentally deficient

I see what you did there.  Do you?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: rebound on June 27, 2017, 12:04:43 pm
I see what you did there.  Do you?

I noticed that, too.   But I think "minions", while somewhat pejorative, is still a real and accurate usage.  Quite a bit different than "snowflake", or "Feminazi", etc...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 27, 2017, 12:35:35 pm
I noticed that, too.   But I think "minions", while somewhat pejorative, is still a real and accurate usage.  Quite a bit different than "snowflake", or "Feminazi", etc...

Some douchenozzle called me a snowflake the other day.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 27, 2017, 12:36:41 pm
Some douchenozzle called me a snowflake the other day.

I called you a racist snowflake and then provided evidence to prove it. Please try to keep up.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2017, 01:07:48 pm
I see what you did there.  Do you?


When confronted by extremist BS (on either side!), I will go right up to and then jump beyond just to provide emphasis!  Unlike Fake Fox News, I strive for truth first, followed by holding up the mirror to the source.


I knew (hoped) someone would catch it...


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: joiei on June 27, 2017, 04:39:33 pm
Some douchenozzle called me a snowflake the other day.

But Guido, do you really believe that Dear Leader is going to take you to the promised land?  I don't know that I would call you a snowflake but if the shoe fits. 


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 27, 2017, 05:16:41 pm
But Guido, do you really believe that Dear Leader is going to take you to the promised land?  I don't know that I would call you a snowflake but if the shoe fits. 


Don't really care about me. If he helps get rid of abortion then I am a-OK. Oh, and if he helps me on taxes and finds a way that Hoss and Swake have to pay more for health insurance. The better.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 27, 2017, 05:29:08 pm
Don't really care about me. If he helps get rid of abortion then I am a-OK. Oh, and if he helps me on taxes and finds a way that Hoss and Swake have to pay more for health insurance. The better.

Yeah, you're such the good strong White Christian Man, aren't you snowflake?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on June 27, 2017, 05:30:02 pm
Yeah, you're such the good strong White Christian Man, aren't you snowflake?
I am a good song.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: erfalf on June 27, 2017, 05:39:51 pm
Grown ups used to tell their kids that when people start making personal attacks it means they feel weak or insecure. I think I am going to have to bid you all adieu. I will keep with some other good advice I recall receiving (from adults again), and not sink to the lowest common denominator.

Peace Out. You've proven again why Democrats will struggle to win elections from now until they realize that insulting those that don't agree with them isn't exactly a sound political policy.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 27, 2017, 05:58:56 pm
My conscience is clean.

He attacks people gleefully and constantly. And recently has been posting links and jokes from places like Stormfront all while claiming to be some good charitable person.

You get what you give, and he gives bile and hate.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2017, 08:38:32 am
Grown ups used to tell their kids that when people start making personal attacks it means they feel weak or insecure. I think I am going to have to bid you all adieu. I will keep with some other good advice I recall receiving (from adults again), and not sink to the lowest common denominator.

Peace Out. You've proven again why Democrats will struggle to win elections from now until they realize that insulting those that don't agree with them isn't exactly a sound political policy.



Projection alert!!  I know you listen to Fake Fox News.   




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 28, 2017, 09:35:14 am
Grown ups used to tell their kids that when people start making personal attacks it means they feel weak or insecure. I think I am going to have to bid you all adieu. I will keep with some other good advice I recall receiving (from adults again), and not sink to the lowest common denominator.

Peace Out. You've proven again why Democrats will struggle to win elections from now until they realize that insulting those that don't agree with them isn't exactly a sound political policy.

And I would like to point out he has a personal attack in his damn tagline on every post. And has had for years.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: BKDotCom on June 28, 2017, 10:30:08 am
And I would like to point out he has a personal attack in his damn tagline on every post. And has had for years.

"Trust but verify" is a personal attack?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2017, 10:35:41 am
Don't really care about me. If he helps get rid of abortion then I am a-OK. Oh, and if he helps me on taxes and finds a way that Hoss and Swake have to pay more for health insurance. The better.


So you think that just because he said he is pro-life a couple times during the campaign to help get your vote that he is gonna reverse 30 years of his real beliefs??

Wow.




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 28, 2017, 10:46:35 am
"Trust but verify" is a personal attack?

No, I have no issue with Erfalf and I hope I haven't insulted him.

We are talking Guido with "Someone get Hoss a pacifier."


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Hoss on June 28, 2017, 10:51:36 am
No, I have no issue with Erfalf and I hope I haven't insulted him.

We are talking Guido with "Someone get Hoss a pacifier."

Meh, as far as personal attacks go that's amateur hour.

I'd expect nothing better from him anyway.  Nothing original, that is.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on June 28, 2017, 11:05:33 am
Meh, as far as personal attacks go that's amateur hour.

I'd expect nothing better from him anyway.  Nothing original, that is.

It's merely an example of his attitude towards people.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on August 14, 2017, 02:14:52 pm
President Trump told Fox News he is “seriously considering” issuing a pardon for former Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was convicted last month of criminal contempt for ignoring a judge’s order to stop detaining people because he merely suspected them of being undocumented immigrants.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/14/trump-says-hes-considering-pardon-for-joe-arpaio/?utm_term=.fe755e1ae13d

And Pharma Bro will be needing one of those pardons before he can take a job on Trump's cabinet.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on August 22, 2017, 07:31:28 pm
If the idea of Trump going to Arizona to pin a medal on an immigration-hater just gets too be too much, here's a TV ad to remind you that there is still sanity and compassion left in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhnz2CMzirM


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on September 05, 2017, 12:45:34 pm
DACA is now caca. Obama says he will be heard on this.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 05, 2017, 12:56:48 pm
The relentless cruelty of the Hijacked Republican Party knows no bounds.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: guido911 on September 05, 2017, 01:04:34 pm
The relentless cruelty of the Hijacked Republican Party knows no bounds.



I agree. Did you see all that cruelty down in Houston? I did. And all those democratic institutions such as BLM and antifa shined.  :D

This program needed to end, and would have ended by the courts. Congress need to fix this.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 05, 2017, 04:26:26 pm
I agree. Did you see all that cruelty down in Houston? I did. And all those democratic institutions such as BLM and antifa shined.  :D

This program needed to end, and would have ended by the courts. Congress need to fix this.





20 Texas Congress people voting against any aid to Sandy victims.  Then Cruz and Cronyn standing with hands out to Trump for Harvey help - before it made landfall.

All the same cast of bad players voting to take insurance away from 20+ million people.

But to someone who won't even say Trump is wrong for his pedophilia, mocking handicapped, calling POWs cowards, sexual molestation, and criminal activities....I can see how these things wouldn't really be much at all.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on September 06, 2017, 08:28:31 am

But to someone who won't even say Trump is wrong for his pedophilia, mocking handicapped, calling POWs cowards, sexual molestation, and criminal activities....I can see how these things wouldn't really be much at all.


They would matter more if you had any real proof most of them existed or weren't taken out of context.   But then again, you probably have lots of feelings that are sensitive and need to be settled periodically.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on September 06, 2017, 10:07:47 am
They would matter more if you had any real proof most of them existed or weren't taken out of context.   But then again, you probably have lots of feelings that are sensitive and need to be settled periodically.

What color is the sky in your world?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Townsend on September 06, 2017, 11:05:59 am
What color is the sky in your world?

(https://ssl.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/170829113925-fox-news-sky-uk-1280x720.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 06, 2017, 11:57:17 am
They would matter more if you had any real proof most of them existed or weren't taken out of context.   But then again, you probably have lots of feelings that are sensitive and need to be settled periodically.


No actual need to provide proof to just report on things he has said, admitted to, and bragged about.  Actually, if the apologists weren't so intellectually lazy and/or morally bankrupt, they could find these things and listen to it themselves.  With the exception of the criminal activities related to Federal housing laws, which are a matter of public record, and the widespread use of illegal immigrants in his hotels**, also documented in Federal court events so nothing to really 'listen'.   And this goes back decades - way before any election last year.  His current BS about illegals constitutes a Major Hypocrisy event in my opinion, but just adds another layer to the vile, disgusting, ugliness that has been Trump for pretty much his entire life.


So why haven't you tried to verify or debunk any of it?  If for no other reason than to try to shoot me down about it??   Intellectual laziness?  Moral bankruptcy??  Trump Apologistista??  Exactly which excuse do you use??

And haven't even touched on the dozens if not hundreds of hard working, honest, business people who he has cheated out of the money he owed them.   Another well documented, dizzying array, of lawsuits.  But you don't know anything about any of those, either, do you??



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on September 06, 2017, 01:37:11 pm

It was really the pedophelia that I can't find.   I can find one article about someone else and a lawsuit, but nothing more.

The "mocking handicapped" I found the video, but if that was mocking, I could introduce him to my 10 year old (or any of the regulars at a Roughnecks game) for a tutorial.

The POWs as cowards, I saw that quote too...  “He’s not a war hero,” said Trump. “He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”   I guess I don't see the coward part of that quote.


After finding (or failing to find) all these discrepancies in your statement, I gave up.   If over half of a statement is unfounded, I tend to loose interest.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on September 06, 2017, 02:16:37 pm
It was really the pedophelia that I can't find.   I can find one article about someone else and a lawsuit, but nothing more.

The "mocking handicapped" I found the video, but if that was mocking, I could introduce him to my 10 year old (or any of the regulars at a Roughnecks game) for a tutorial.

The POWs as cowards, I saw that quote too...   “He’s not a war hero,” said Trump. “He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”   I guess I don't see the coward part of that quote.


After finding (or failing to find) all these discrepancies in your statement, I gave up.   If over half of a statement is unfounded, I tend to loose interest.

He was caught peeping on underage girls at the Jr Miss USA Pageant. There are video tapes of him ogling 13-14 year old girls telling them he will date them someday. This is the behavior of the pedophile.

Trump's mocking the reporter wasn't as bad as what a 10 year old boy would do? You are of the opinion that a candidate for president should have the moral compass and judgement of a 10 year old boy? That could explain a lot.

I don't know about him calling McCain a coward. I'm not aware of that. He did go way over the line in criticizing McCain for his war service. What Trump said was completely offensive. you can agree on that, can't you?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 06, 2017, 02:31:28 pm
It was really the pedophelia that I can't find.   I can find one article about someone else and a lawsuit, but nothing more.

The "mocking handicapped" I found the video, but if that was mocking, I could introduce him to my 10 year old (or any of the regulars at a Roughnecks game) for a tutorial.

The POWs as cowards, I saw that quote too...   “He’s not a war hero,” said Trump. “He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”   I guess I don't see the coward part of that quote.


After finding (or failing to find) all these discrepancies in your statement, I gave up.   If over half of a statement is unfounded, I tend to loose interest.


Pedophilia - we can use another word if you want, but it must also reflect the intent and act - short hand for the act of intentionally, repeatedly, with obvious prurient interest and intent, walking into the dressing rooms of naked 15 and 16 year old girls.  Then bragging about it saying he has to, "check them out to make sure everything is ok...."   As he also did with the over-18 women in his pageants (Teen and Miss).   If you, like guido, have a daughter and are all right with that, then all I can say is, "Wow!"

And many of the girls, subsequently interviewed verified that yes, he did come into the room and look around very closely.

So, you are rationalizing a guy who, as President, acts like your 10 year old.   Gawd, we are is so much worse trouble than I expected...   No biggie to you, then, huh??


Really??   You don't 'get' innuendo, accusation, casting aspersions??   Come on...you are better/brighter than that.

His criminal acts culminated in several events that were effectively nolo contendere, where he didn't admit guilt, but it was declared they had broken the Fair Housing laws and a consent decree was entered.  They settled.  In much the same way that if someone takes the 5th, they are guilty - another one of Trumps statements.  So they were obviously guilty no matter their protestations to the contrary.  Here, I will do some of the work for you...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-the-governments-racial-bias-case-against-donald-trumps-company-and-how-he-fought-it/2016/01/23/fb90163e-bfbe-11e5-bcda-62a36b394160_story.html?utm_term=.a8c81f8ea53d

And now he is back to his old tricks again...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/07/19/under_trump_party_planner_hud_ends_obama_s_battle_against_segregation_in.html


As for hiring illegals, well, you can look for that one.  Hint, 200 Polish immigrants.  He 'settled' that one too, but it was sealed, so the exact amount was undisclosed.  Asking price was $1 million at the time....  As for his hotels - well, have you ever seen the make up of the staff at one?  Me neither, but several people I know have stayed at his properties and report a large Hispanic census among the workers.  Many if not most who speak no English.  You do the math....

And you certainly have heard the stories on the news about all the people he has failed to pay...?   Or are you stuck on Fake Fox News, too??






Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on September 06, 2017, 02:59:31 pm

Illegal actions...   Obviously the courts agreed (from your own article.)
"the matter was ultimately settled without any finding of liability and without any admission of wrongdoing whatsoever"


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on September 06, 2017, 03:08:26 pm


And now he is back to his old tricks again...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/07/19/under_trump_party_planner_hud_ends_obama_s_battle_against_segregation_in.html


Even an Obama US Attorney didn't agree...   Watch those rocks, they may bounce back.

From 2015
http://www.antibiaslaw.com/article/appeals-court-decision-highlights-inadequacy-us-attorney-approach


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 06, 2017, 03:56:33 pm
Even an Obama US Attorney didn't agree...   Watch those rocks, they may bounce back.

From 2015
http://www.antibiaslaw.com/article/appeals-court-decision-highlights-inadequacy-us-attorney-approach


You do see the pattern here, though, even if there was insufficient evidence for a conviction - the pattern holds to historical methods used for generations.  


It's kind of like when one is trying to show age discrimination against a company, and the company has kept a token old person that can be pointed to as evidence that they don't discriminate....  Yeah, they do.  Just can't get traction in court.  Same thing.






Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on September 07, 2017, 07:33:26 am

You obviously can see whatever patterns you want.  It isn't enough of a pattern for the US Attorney, but hey, you obviously know better than the person tasked to investigate and prosecute it.

I don't know other than what I have read....   And I choose not to read more into things than are actually there.



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on September 13, 2017, 09:12:09 pm
(CNN)Three Customs and Border Protection agents were arrested after allegedly assaulting two of their fellow colleagues in hazing-type incidents that involved what was referred to as a "rape table" at their office in Newark Liberty International Airport, according to a press release from the US Attorney's Office.
In both incidents, the two alleged victims were locked in a conference room and forced onto a table, which was referred to as a "rape table" by the men charged with assaulting the victims. The victims were held down by colleagues while one officer got on top of them and "moved his genitals up and down" in "simulation of a sex act," according to the press release.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on October 07, 2017, 09:38:00 am
In the early days of Donald Trump’s presidency, ICE agents in Austin scrambled — and largely failed — to engineer a narrative that would substantiate the administration’s claims that the raids were motivated by public safety concerns. Instead, the emails detail the evolution of ICE’s public statements once it became obvious that the Trump administration’s narrative was not true.

On February 10, as the raids kicked off, an ICE executive in Washington sent an “URGENT” directive to the agency’s chiefs of staff around the country. “Please put together a white paper covering the three most egregious cases,” for each location, the acting chief of staff of ICE’s Enforcement and Removal Operations wrote in the email. “If a location has only one egregious case — then include an extra egregious case from another city.”

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/04/ice-raids-trump-immigration-deportation/


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 07, 2017, 03:55:54 pm

I heard the other day the FBI was going after bank robbers and the DEA was trying to bust drug dealers.   They even had to tell stories about people they busted.

I think it was all a plot for job security.

Is there a method to enter the country legally?   (You notice the "legal" part of the word legailty?)   Maybe if people would follow the laws then they wouldn't run into trouble.   Personally I think there should be a fast track way to come into the US and pay taxes...   I also believe there shouldn't be speed limits or a moratorium on using medicinal marijuana...   

Disney told me that if I wanted really REALLY hard, I could get what I wanted...   AS it turns out, those things are still illegal and thus, have consequences.    I suggest voting in politicians that will change the laws and convert "illegal" to "legal."


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on October 07, 2017, 07:37:56 pm
I heard the other day the FBI was going after bank robbers and the DEA was trying to bust drug dealers.   They even had to tell stories about people they busted.

I think it was all a plot for job security.

Is there a method to enter the country legally?   (You notice the "legal" part of the word legailty?)   Maybe if people would follow the laws then they wouldn't run into trouble.   Personally I think there should be a fast track way to come into the US and pay taxes...   I also believe there shouldn't be speed limits or a moratorium on using medicinal marijuana...    

Disney told me that if I wanted really REALLY hard, I could get what I wanted...   AS it turns out, those things are still illegal and thus, have consequences.    I suggest voting in politicians that will change the laws and convert "illegal" to "legal."

I think the best solution is a mix of increased trade with Mexico (and Central America) to further raise them to the first world, along with an electronic fence and opening up legal immigration more. Most people without chronic illness or criminal convictions should be allowed in. So the only people trying to enter illegally over the border can be assumed to be criminals and the border patrol can react proportionately without fear of hurting people who are just simply poor and looking for a better life.

The combination of those would decrease the supply of poor immigrants, increase the slots for legal immigration and allow us to focus on criminals at the border.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 07, 2017, 08:03:09 pm

I think the best solution is a mix of increased trade with Mexico (and Central America) to further raise them to the first world, along with an electronic fence and opening up legal immigration more.

That is the only solution that would work.   If you live in a dirt floored hovel with spotty electricity, crap in the streets from no working sewer, trying to raise a family with no ability to move upward of course you are going to try to come to the US any way possible.   Even living 14 deep in a 2 bedroom apartment is a step up.    I can't fault them.   I would probably do the same thing.. 

So let's fix the system.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on October 07, 2017, 10:21:49 pm
That is the only solution that would work.   If you live in a dirt floored hovel with spotty electricity, crap in the streets from no working sewer, trying to raise a family with no ability to move upward of course you are going to try to come to the US any way possible.   Even living 14 deep in a 2 bedroom apartment is a step up.    I can't fault them.   I would probably do the same thing.. 

So let's fix the system.

These are people that are motivated to work for a better life. To do anything, to do what it takes. That is the special sauce that makes Americans and why we are the most successful nation on earth. We rob other countries of the most intelligent, the hardest working and the most motivated people on earth.

To stop that migration is to hurt our future.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2017, 10:25:10 pm
We stepped up trade by closing American manufacturing plants and helping open maquiladora shops in northern Mexico.  A lot of American textile and garment plants have closed and moved their production to Central America.  But it didn’t seem to stem the tide of immigrants still illegally entering our country.  Increasing trade with Mexico or Central America doesn’t appear to raise their wages to a level which makes it more attractive to stay there rather than seeking higher wages on this side of the border.  The benefit to companies moving manufacturing operations south of the border was the cheaper labor. 

It seems we’ve done the stepping up trade with these countries but that hasn’t been a solution to illegal immigration so far.  How do we correct that?


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on October 07, 2017, 10:35:49 pm
We stepped up trade by closing American manufacturing plants and helping open maquiladora shops in northern Mexico.  A lot of American textile and garment plants have closed and moved their production to Central America.  But it didn’t seem to stem the tide of immigrants still illegally entering our country.  Increasing trade with Mexico or Central America doesn’t appear to raise their wages to a level which makes it more attractive to stay there rather than seeking higher wages on this side of the border.  The benefit to companies moving manufacturing operations south of the border was the cheaper labor. 

It seems we’ve done the stepping up trade with these countries but that hasn’t been a solution to illegal immigration so far.  How do we correct that?

Most illegal immigrants are not Mexican anymore. Mexico on a per capita basis is wealthier than China.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 08, 2017, 10:03:21 am
A lot of American textile and garment plants have closed and moved their production to Central America. 

I read an article a couple of years ago talking about how the prices were on the rise in Mexico/Central America and the textile mills were moving to Asia as a result. 

Again, more problems with no proposed solutions.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on October 08, 2017, 12:13:58 pm
I heard the other day the FBI was going after bank robbers and the DEA was trying to bust drug dealers.   They even had to tell stories about people they busted.
https://theintercept.com/2017/10/04/ice-raids-trump-immigration-deportation/

I dont think the author was saying laws shouldn't be enforced, but rather, enforcement should not solely be for the benefit of the ruling party's propaganda.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Conan71 on October 08, 2017, 02:25:35 pm
Most illegal immigrants are not Mexican anymore. Mexico on a per capita basis is wealthier than China.

Hence, my mention of Mexico and Central America.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 08, 2017, 05:48:01 pm

I dont think the author was saying laws shouldn't be enforced, but rather, enforcement should not solely be for the benefit of the ruling party's propaganda.

The beautiful thing about laws...   The police just get to enforce them, they don't have to push any agenda.

Does the Tulsa Police Department gets to write speeding tickets without impunity or do they also have to push an agenda and justify their actions? 

I guess you could write a story about anything and as long as you can get someone to sympathize with it, you will sell column space.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: Ed W on October 09, 2017, 09:28:23 am
The beautiful thing about laws...   The police just get to enforce them, they don't have to push any agenda.


If you believe this, I recommend riding a bicycle or motorcycle in traffic,  or standing near a school with camera in hand. You'll learn much about the enforcement of imaginary laws.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on October 09, 2017, 09:42:05 am
If you believe this, I recommend riding a bicycle or motorcycle in traffic,  or standing near a school with camera in hand. You'll learn much about the enforcement of imaginary laws.

"We dont make the laws, just enforce them" may have been true back in the before-time, but when you look today at how many laws are "suggested" or flat-out written by the various police unions its hard to argue they are a captive audience.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 09, 2017, 09:59:56 am
"We dont make the laws, just enforce them" may have been true back in the before-time, but when you look today at how many laws are "suggested" or flat-out written by the various police unions its hard to argue they are a captive audience.


You think that regulations are really written by regulators?   Nope.   They have the final say so, but seldom if ever do they actually draft the verbiage. 



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on October 09, 2017, 11:52:44 am
You think that regulations are really written by regulators?   Nope.   They have the final say so, but seldom if ever do they actually draft the verbiage. 

Is that why bills like "blue lives matter" are essentially identical in each state?  Come on, cookie-cutter-get-the-law-and-order-reelection-endorsement legislation only requires a politician to add their name to the top.  They barely bother reading it.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on October 09, 2017, 12:18:31 pm
Is that why bills like "blue lives matter" are essentially identical in each state?  Come on, cookie-cutter-get-the-law-and-order-reelection-endorsement legislation only requires a politician to add their name to the top.  They barely bother reading it.

Correct.  I would fully expect that some police union wrote it and everyone else took successful legislation and copied it.   Like I said, you will also find that big companies often get to write the regulations that regulates them.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: patric on November 12, 2017, 09:46:22 pm
Deported veterans:

http://www.ibtimes.com/photo-deported-veterans-saluting-us-flag-goes-viral-2613629

Two words that should never appear in the same sentence.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 12, 2017, 10:18:19 pm
Deported veterans:

http://www.ibtimes.com/photo-deported-veterans-saluting-us-flag-goes-viral-2613629

Two words that should never appear in the same sentence.


More Trump...his minions are so proud...!!



Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: swake on November 12, 2017, 10:30:22 pm
We are losing what America is.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: TeeDub on November 13, 2017, 07:51:33 am
Deported veterans:

http://www.ibtimes.com/photo-deported-veterans-saluting-us-flag-goes-viral-2613629

Two words that should never appear in the same sentence.

This is an annual rehash of a story.    It should be hard to blame Trump for this.

January 2016
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/13/462372040/service-members-not-citizens-meet-the-veterans-who-have-been-deported

May 2017 (Memorial Day)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/rep-joaqu-n-castro-leading-trip-mexico-meet-deported-veterans-n765251




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 13, 2017, 09:40:46 am
We are losing what America is.


Lost.

We had a few brief moments over 35 years ago when we were still moving toward the light - then reversed direction away.




Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: hello on November 13, 2017, 10:00:33 am

Lost.

We had a few brief moments over 35 years ago when we were still moving toward the light - then reversed direction away.




You can thank the rise of Fox News for a lot of that.


Title: Re: President Trump & Immigration
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 13, 2017, 12:31:56 pm
You can thank the rise of Fox News for a lot of that.


Rupert Murdoch.  Koch Brothers.  Ignorance of people who want to live in a fantasy world rather than the real world.  As I have gone on about repeatedly.



Mathis Brothers...??