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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: BKDotCom on January 04, 2017, 04:22:03 pm



Title: Promenade Mall
Post by: BKDotCom on January 04, 2017, 04:22:03 pm
A few months ago I predicted some sort of mall closure announcement (or restructuring / refocus / something) after the holidays.

No announcement re the mall as a whole, but Macy's is pulling the plug (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/macy-s-at-tulsa-promenade-mall-is-closing/article_633e4cdb-92b9-50fe-9240-1397e2f336c9.html)... out by the end of the year.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on January 04, 2017, 04:28:52 pm
I vote for a greenhouse, microlofts, or an OU-Tulsa med school.

http://gizmodo.com/7-dead-shopping-malls-that-found-surprising-second-live-1634073681


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: swake on January 04, 2017, 04:36:19 pm
Toys R Us in east Tulsa (by the old Eastland Mall) is closing in January, Sears in midtown is closing in April, and now Macy’s at Promenade Mall is closing by the end of the year.

Tulsa still has a K-Mart on the east side and a Sears at Woodland Hills, neither of those seem like they can last very long.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2017, 04:46:16 pm
Irony:  giving Macy's millions in tax subsidies for a couple hundred low wage jobs so they could build an online fulfillment center and close a retail store in Tulsa.

Macy's is closing 100 stores nationwide.  With Woodland Hills being <5 miles away, this sadly makes sense.  Many duplicate stores have pulled out of Promenade in the last ~5 years.  Mass retail in a brick and mortar store is becoming a harder and harder business.  Add Tulsa Hills to the shopping option and something has to give.  We didn't add a Tulsa Hill's worth of new population in the last 10 years...

- - -

I vote indoor paintball.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on January 04, 2017, 06:32:32 pm
Irony:  giving Macy's millions in tax subsidies for a couple hundred low wage jobs so they could build an online fulfillment center and close a retail store in Tulsa.

Macy's is closing 100 stores nationwide.  With Woodland Hills being <5 miles away, this sadly makes sense.  Many duplicate stores have pulled out of Promenade in the last ~5 years.  Mass retail in a brick and mortar store is becoming a harder and harder business.  Add Tulsa Hills to the shopping option and something has to give.  We didn't add a Tulsa Hill's worth of new population in the last 10 years...

- - -

I vote indoor paintball.

And yet, more proof that building new retail stores doesn’t mean it creates commerce.  It just pilfers customers from other existing businesses.

In reality, this is nothing new.  Aside from indoor malls generally being on the downswing, the overhaul of Southland which created Promenade is now 30+ years old and I don’t see that it’s really gotten much of a recent facelift to keep it relevant.  Any bets on how much longer JCP and Dillard’s stay open there?


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: patric on January 04, 2017, 11:48:04 pm

I vote indoor paintball.


...on horseback.  Scotchguard some cavalry uniforms and outfit the mounts with WWI gasmask faceguards and your all set.

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

“This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation”  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html



Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 12:26:24 am
And yet, more proof that building new retail stores doesn’t mean it creates commerce.  It just pilfers customers from other existing businesses.

In reality, this is nothing new.  Aside from indoor malls generally being on the downswing, the overhaul of Southland which created Promenade is now 30+ years old and I don’t see that it’s really gotten much of a recent facelift to keep it relevant.  Any bets on how much longer JCP and Dillard’s stay open there?

That kind of shocked me at first that Promenade was done 30 years ago, for some reason it didn't seem that long ago. I think JCP and Dillard's may have some more life left in them since there are enough people between 41st & Yale going towards downtown and north and east of it, and Woodland covers south Tulsa. As for them closing the 21st & Yale Sears it's probably because it's cheaper renting at Woodland than owning a freestanding store.

I remember reading an article in a trade magazine called Teleconnect back in 1994, when they were discussing the shopping revolution that was going to happen once the internet was widely available, and that it could be the end of the brick and mortar stores, and you would shop in a virtual mall. I remember chuckling about it thinking it would never happen.

The biggest impact I have seen with Macy's/KMart/JCP closing stores is the effect on the small regional malls in more rural areas where now the nearest ones are now up to a 3 hour drive away.(not everyone here is computer literate, and some can't afford it) We have a Sears here, but it is some quasi franchise arrangement and it's about the size of a CVS/Walgreen's and all they sell are tools/lawn & garden/appliances/TV's and beds.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on January 05, 2017, 09:10:17 am
That kind of shocked me at first that Promenade was done 30 years ago, for some reason it didn't seem that long ago. I think JCP and Dillard's may have some more life left in them since there are enough people between 41st & Yale going towards downtown and north and east of it, and Woodland covers south Tulsa. As for them closing the 21st & Yale Sears it's probably because it's cheaper renting at Woodland than owning a freestanding store.

I remember reading an article in a trade magazine called Teleconnect back in 1994, when they were discussing the shopping revolution that was going to happen once the internet was widely available, and that it could be the end of the brick and mortar stores, and you would shop in a virtual mall. I remember chuckling about it thinking it would never happen.

The biggest impact I have seen with Macy's/KMart/JCP closing stores is the effect on the small regional malls in more rural areas where now the nearest ones are now up to a 3 hour drive away.(not everyone here is computer literate, and some can't afford it) We have a Sears here, but it is some quasi franchise arrangement and it's about the size of a CVS/Walgreen's and all they sell are tools/lawn & garden/appliances/TV's and beds.
 

There’s a Sears franchise like the one you describe in Trinidad, Colorado and another in Pagosa Springs.  I believe they keep the quickest turn items on the shelf but can order in anything Sears carries which is their big advantage over the traditional Sears monoliths.  Funny you mention that about major shopping areas being three hours away.  It will be exactly like that for us when we move in a few months.  Pueblo and Albuquerque are each 3 hours from us.  Santa Fe is 2 1/2 hours and doesn’t have quite the same big box presence as larger cities.  Fortunately, MC and I aren’t terribly dependent on big box retail and if we cannot get what we need from Raton, Angel Fire, or Taos someone can order in what we need and have it in a matter of days or we can just buy it on line if it is electronics.

Sorry back on topic (Marshall’s!) I believe the renovation which created Promenade stretched from about 1985 to 1990 as I think 1990 is about the time they completed the parking garages.  I worked at the mall while attending classes at TJC during ’86 and ’87 which was the only reason I could even remember when they re-opened it.  In ’86 there weren’t many stores open yet and I remember thinking their timing was really bad as we weren’t that far out of the oil patch and S & L crash. 

It was a huge overhaul.  IIRC, Southland was more along the lines of the big box complexes being built now with seemingly unconnected stores with outward facing store entries, not stores oriented around an indoor walkway.  Southroads was more conventional with indoor entrances but it was converted around that era (maybe closer to the mid-’90’s) to the big box type model.  Rather ironic how that worked out for the two centers, eh?

There was an article not too long ago looking at the abandoned inner-spaces of the old Southroads.

Quote
...on horseback.  Scotchguard some cavalry uniforms and outfit the mounts with WWI gasmask faceguards and your all set.

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

“This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation”  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html

I live a few blocks from there.  Sears has been beyond dead for years in this location and I can’t believe they’ve kept it open this long.  They aren’t even busy during the holidays.  Great opportunity to snap up some bargains on Craftsman products when the start the close-out sale though!


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: swake on January 05, 2017, 09:29:56 am
As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on January 05, 2017, 10:50:12 am
As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.

You’d mentioned K-Mart not being long for the world in east Tulsa.  It was announced on the news last night the K-Mart in Muskogee is closing.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 10:52:25 am
 

There’s a Sears franchise like the one you describe in Trinidad, Colorado and another in Pagosa Springs.  I believe they keep the quickest turn items on the shelf but can order in anything Sears carries which is their big advantage over the traditional Sears monoliths.  Funny you mention that about major shopping areas being three hours away.  It will be exactly like that for us when we move in a few months.  Pueblo and Albuquerque are each 3 hours from us.  Santa Fe is 2 1/2 hours and doesn’t have quite the same big box presence as larger cities.  Fortunately, MC and I aren’t terribly dependent on big box retail and if we cannot get what we need from Raton, Angel Fire, or Taos someone can order in what we need and have it in a matter of days or we can just buy it on line if it is electronics.

Sorry back on topic (Marshall’s!) I believe the renovation which created Promenade stretched from about 1985 to 1990 as I think 1990 is about the time they completed the parking garages.  I worked at the mall while attending classes at TJC during ’86 and ’87 which was the only reason I could even remember when they re-opened it.  In ’86 there weren’t many stores open yet and I remember thinking their timing was really bad as we weren’t that far out of the oil patch and S & L crash. 

It was a huge overhaul.  IIRC, Southland was more along the lines of the big box complexes being built now with seemingly unconnected stores with outward facing store entries, not stores oriented around an indoor walkway.  Southroads was more conventional with indoor entrances but it was converted around that era (maybe closer to the mid-’90’s) to the big box type model.  Rather ironic how that worked out for the two centers, eh?

There was an article not too long ago looking at the abandoned inner-spaces of the old Southroads.

I live a few blocks from there.  Sears has been beyond dead for years in this location and I can’t believe they’ve kept it open this long.  They aren’t even busy during the holidays.  Great opportunity to snap up some bargains on Craftsman products when the start the close-out sale though!


I remember Southland and South Roads being converted (I moved away in 1998) just forgot that it had been that long. It has been interesting watching the change from indoor malls to outdoor mall/power centers like Desert Ridge in north Phoenix. I think the indoor mall to an extent is pretty much done, they will survive somewhat in areas with temperature extremes but they are dying off. There is a website "deadmalls.com" that has a long list of now gone malls.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 10:57:52 am
As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.

Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Hoss on January 05, 2017, 11:25:39 am
Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.

A bit of thread drift (not really since you mentioned them in your previous post) I had my first business transaction with Robertson Tire in November for a set of four tires.  Some of the nicest and friendly people you'll meet.  Great prices too.  They'll match from wherever.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: swake on January 05, 2017, 11:49:30 am
Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.

The auto center isn't closing. I would expect them to be sold off as a independent chain as well.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 12:12:37 pm
The auto center isn't closing. I would expect them to be sold off as a independent chain as well.

I stand corrected. Thanks.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Oil Capital on January 06, 2017, 08:29:07 am

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

“This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation”  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html


What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Hoss on January 06, 2017, 08:49:07 am
What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.

If you'd have seen the store 40 years ago you might understand.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: saintnicster on January 06, 2017, 08:55:11 am
What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.
Context is important folks...
Quote
“Sears is not in the habit of rebuilding free-standing stores. They prefer to go into the malls,” the store’s manager said in 1998. “But they stayed here because they saw that with the customer base and the community, it would be very helpful to keep a free-standing store.

“This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation.”


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: TulsaGuy on January 06, 2017, 10:20:01 am
I really think one of the better long-term options for Promenade Mall would be an expansion of the OU-Tulsa campus.  Build a skybridge over Yale to connect it to the existing SW corner campus and maybe an automatic circulator that goes back and forth between both campuses.  Perhaps a portion of the mall could be an incubator for startups coming out of the OU-Tulsa programs.  Another portion could be a clinic for the medical school. 


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on January 06, 2017, 11:02:17 am
I really think one of the better long-term options for Promenade Mall would be an expansion of the OU-Tulsa campus.  Build a skybridge over Yale to connect it to the existing SW corner campus and maybe an automatic circulator that goes back and forth between both campuses.  Perhaps a portion of the mall could be an incubator for startups coming out of the OU-Tulsa programs.  Another portion could be a clinic for the medical school. 

I like the way you think, a medical complex could be preferable than a shopping mall at this spot.  I could see that actually happening if they didn’t already have such a huge plot of land they can expand on as it is.

Oklahoma City benefits from a medical research park offshoot from the OU Med complex on 10th St. south of the Capitol.  Something like this could create hundreds of really good paying jobs for Tulsa.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: patric on January 06, 2017, 12:12:32 pm
I like the way you think, a medical complex could be preferable than a shopping mall at this spot.  I could see that actually happening if they didn’t already have such a huge plot of land they can expand on as it is.

Oklahoma City benefits from a medical research park offshoot from the OU Med complex on 10th St. south of the Capitol.  Something like this could create hundreds of really good paying jobs for Tulsa.

May compete with the St. John - Hillcrest medical corridor, but otherwise sounds like a neat idea.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: SXSW on January 06, 2017, 01:30:42 pm
I've thought about the possibilities of having OU expand across Yale since the mid-2000's when the mall started going downhill.  Honestly there isn't a real need for a mall this size in between Woodland Hills and Utica Square.  If anything closing Promenade can only strengthen those two shopping centers.  Some kind of medical complex would probably make the most sense.  Or even a combined retail/medical development, there are lots of possibilities.

One successful indoor mall to outdoor shopping center case study is the Villa Italia Mall to Belmar transformation in Lakewood, CO.  They demolished the old dying mall and rebuilt it on the street grid with the big retail stores on the periphery and two "main streets" with the retail shops, a movie theatre and apartments/offices above.  Really well done it's worth seeing if you're ever in the area.  43rd is already a good connector to OU across the street, if you could punch Braden through from 43rd to 41st then you could line it with stores and have an OU medical component along Yale.  The same for 42nd from Yale to Darlington.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2017, 06:53:06 pm
One successful indoor mall to outdoor shopping center case study is the Villa Italia Mall to Belmar transformation in Lakewood, CO. 


The Kensington Galleria was a pretty successful conversion of retail to office space as well.    Eastland is trying, but not there yet.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on January 06, 2017, 08:01:06 pm
And as previously mentioned, I believe the conversion of Southroads Mall directly to the north of the Promenade is a very good example of a successful indoor to outdoor conversion which was an adaptive re-use rather than a nuke and re-build.  It doesn’t really qualify as a “power center” per se, but it seems to serve a good purpose for midtown.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: SXSW on January 13, 2017, 11:55:23 am
Here is another mall in Alexandria, VA that is using their anchor Macy's closing as the impetus to tear down the mall and start over as an open air shopping center.  That would be ironic if that is what eventually happens to Promenade since it started out as an open air shopping center..

http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center# (http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center#)

Quote
Macy’s shuttering of the location gave Hughes the opportunity to act on a rezoning of the site approved by the Alexandria City Council in 2013. In a release, the company said it intends to turn the 1965 vintage mall into a “vibrant, open-air, mixed-use community … designed to create a dynamic urban village.”


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: swake on January 13, 2017, 01:06:37 pm
Here is another mall in Alexandria, VA that is using their anchor Macy's closing as the impetus to tear down the mall and start over as an open air shopping center.  That would be ironic if that is what eventually happens to Promenade since it started out as an open air shopping center..

http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center# (http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center#)


It would be incredibly ironic as Southroads transitioned from an indoor mall to power center after Foley's (Macy's) closed and moved across the street to Promenade


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: In_Tulsa on November 18, 2017, 08:12:30 pm
The rumor mill is spinning again. So I heard that Mathis Brothers is taking over the old Macy’s. I don’t know how accurate this information is. If it does happen I think it would be great for the mall and Mathis Brothers!!


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: realst8 on November 18, 2017, 09:57:32 pm
I believe the Mathis deal is dead. My understanding is the property fell out of contract about a week ago and CBRE is again marketing the property.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 20, 2017, 07:56:40 am
The rumor mill is spinning again. So I heard that Mathis Brothers is taking over the old Macy’s. I don’t know how accurate this information is. If it does happen I think it would be great for the mall and Mathis Brothers!!


Oh, yuck..!!   Gag me with a 10 lb turkey!!   Another Mathis place - just what Tulsa needs....NOT !!


Sounds like I may not be the fanboy most Tulsan's are...true.

Bait and switch
Misrepresent
Flat out lie




Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: BKDotCom on November 20, 2017, 09:09:42 am

Sounds like I may not be the fanboy most Tulsan's are...true.


Who likes Mathis bros?
I assume it attracts everyone from the sticks that come into town for furniture shoppin'


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: In_Tulsa on March 10, 2018, 01:12:08 pm
Does anybody know what’s going in the old Mervyn’s? They are gutting both floors.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: realst8 on March 10, 2018, 10:02:49 pm
I believe CREOKS closed on the purchase of the building including the Sky space about a week ago. Sky has a lease and is generating income for the buyer so I believe that use will remain unchanged. I was told the balance of the vacant space would be used for CREOKS Administrative offices and various community medical programs - not sure how accurate the proposed use is but the sale information is accurate. I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: Conan71 on March 10, 2018, 10:58:38 pm
I believe CREOKS closed on the purchase of the building including the Sky space about a week ago. Sky has a lease and is generating income for the buyer so I believe that use will remain unchanged. I was told the balance of the vacant space would be used for CREOKS Administrative offices and various community medical programs - not sure how accurate the proposed use is but the sale information is accurate. I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.

I'm glad Sky apparently pays the rent because they don't care to pay contractors in a timely fashion, if at all.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 11, 2018, 08:58:41 am
I'm glad Sky apparently pays the rent because they don't care to pay contractors in a timely fashion, if at all.


Must be a Trump business.  Or Trump University graduate...




Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: In_Tulsa on March 11, 2018, 10:03:42 am
I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.

Do you know who it is?


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: realst8 on April 24, 2018, 06:13:49 pm
Believe it or not it appears to be an entity affiliated with Warren Ross & Elliot Nelson. They paid $1mm or about $5.00 per square foot.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: In_Tulsa on April 25, 2018, 08:23:30 pm
Believe it or not it appears to be an entity affiliated with Warren Ross & Elliot Nelson. They paid $1mm or about $5.00 per square foot.

That’s interesting! I wonder what the plans are.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: MostSeriousness on April 26, 2018, 06:47:32 am
Big Boxyard


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: BKDotCom on April 26, 2018, 07:42:57 am
Coworking space?


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2018, 01:54:50 pm
Coworking space would be nice!   


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: sgrizzle on April 27, 2018, 03:55:19 pm
That’s interesting! I wonder what the plans are.

TGI Friday's















Kidding.


Title: Re: Promenade Mall
Post by: In_Tulsa on May 13, 2018, 08:02:20 pm
The sale closed. It will be interesting to see what happens!