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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: cannon_fodder on December 07, 2016, 12:56:33 pm



Title: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 07, 2016, 12:56:33 pm
the Tulsa Club Building has been on a long, steady decline with recent glimmers of home.  But it looks like the saga gets a story book ending!

It was built in 1925 (or 1927 depending on the source) and hosted the Chamber of Commerce as well as the Tulsa Club - with membership dues of $19 per month (up to $119 when it finally closed). It had libraries, dining halls, lounges, large banquet halls, a gymnasium, boxing club, barber shop, and a top/rooftop sky lounge. AbandonedOK has amazing pictures (http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/) of the past and present condition. The overall building is 92,220 feet in 11 stories.

The Chamber of Commerce moved out in the 1950s. The Tulsa Club survived the oil bust of the 1980s, but folded in 1994.  The out of state investor, CJ Morony, purchased the building in 1997 and held onto it as it fell into disrepair, subjected to break ins, and fires - until the City of Tulsa targeted it as a nuisance starting in 2008, levied fines, and foreclosed on the building. The foreclosure was delayed several times until it was sold at Sheriff's auction in 2013 to Josh Barrett of Vest Properties for $460k.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/tulsa-club-building-revitalization-plan-calls-for-boutique-hotel-restaurant/article_68c7b29b-44ff-5a77-99b1-d4fb47680e11.html

The new owner had high hopes and secured the building, started some clean up, and did some other work on the building. But for whatever reason the project stalled.  The building was sold to the Ross Group in 2015 for a reported $1.5mil. The Ross Group (http://www.withrossgroup.com/) (which employs new City Councilor Kimbro) has been involved in several projects in and around Tulsa, including taking over the First Place Lofts, several hotels under construction in the downtown area, the Coliseum Apartments, and their corporate HQ in the Blue Dome district. Many people don't realize that it is a bigger deal than "just" a local development company (https://www.usbuildersreview.com/case-studies/ross-group-construction-corporation-delivering-projects-idea-occupancy-through/).
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/tulsa-club-building-sells-to-ross-group-for-million/article_7fef4942-65f7-5125-a2f1-27f012fb0eb6.html

Six months ago it was announced that the plans were pending approval of a 6 year tax abatement, but would include 98 hotel rooms, ground floor restaurant and retail, and a top floor restaurant and bar.  The ballroom was to be restored. The TDA issued a resolution (http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/6240-7-12-2016-Tax-Abatement-Support-TCB-Landlord.pdf) in favor of the tax abatement. The full proposal, proposals, and details are available from the TDA (and are interesting!). (http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/TDA-Staff-Report-and-Supporting-Documents-Final.pdf)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/tulsa-club-building-revitalization-plan-calls-for-boutique-hotel-restaurant/article_68c7b29b-44ff-5a77-99b1-d4fb47680e11.html

Today Channel 6 ran a story that work is going to start "in a couple of weeks." The intentions appear largely as advertised, and include reopening the outdoor terrace on the top floor!
http://www.newson6.com/story/33985189/developers-looking-to-restore-tulsa-club-building-to-former-glory

A huge win for downtown.  New buildings are great (BOK Center, OnePlace Tower, Northwest Mutual Building, new hotels, ballpark, AHHA, Box Yard, etc.) but with empty buildings we also need renovations to help fill in gaps.  This is a great addition!


[edit] Tulsa World Reported today that they are still waiting City Council approval on the tax abatement:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-club-building-renovation-seeking-tax-abatement-from-city-before/article_c740ebf1-86bb-58e4-b232-f9f141c1a028.html [/edit]


Images from AbandonedOK (http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/), which has many, many more:

(http://www.abandonedok.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/C0300.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-2/24/C0305.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-2/28/C0309.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-2/9/C0123.jpg)

(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-1/20/SDC11929.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-1/19/SDC11928.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-1/22/SDC11931.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-1/25/SDC11936.jpg)
(http://www.abandonedok.com/tulsa-club-building/#foobox-1/96/SDC12105.jpg)



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: swake on December 07, 2016, 01:13:52 pm
This is great news, one of my favorite buildings in Tulsa


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: MostSeriousness on December 07, 2016, 03:10:26 pm
Props to the Ross Group for continued support of Tulsa. They really are doing amazing things. Or more to the point, the right things.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: hello on December 07, 2016, 03:31:21 pm
 While I'm glad to see parking lots turn into new buildings they tend to be rather boring designs. Can you imagine how much something like the Philtower or Tulsa Club would cost to build today? That's why preservation is important. So happy this building is finally being renovated by a company that seems to understand this.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on December 07, 2016, 03:34:41 pm
I love the work the Ross Group is doing, and I'm thrilled this jewel in our art deco crown is getting polished. If another Bruce Goff building was lost I would probably throw up my hands and quit. So I want to put this as delicately as possible: another hotel? I'm not a hotelier in Tulsa so I don't know what the demand is like, but as a layman I feel like we have a an inordinate amount of hotels in the works relative to apartment buildings.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on December 07, 2016, 04:35:57 pm
I love the work the Ross Group is doing, and I'm thrilled this jewel in our art deco crown is getting polished. If another Bruce Goff building was lost I would probably throw up my hands and quit. So I want to put this as delicately as possible: another hotel? I'm not a hotelier in Tulsa so I don't know what the demand is like, but as a layman I feel like we have a an inordinate amount of hotels in the works relative to apartment buildings.

My purely uneducated guess would be from a financial model that may be the easiest to justify in a business plan when you are putting the financing together and probably offers a better return than apartments or office space. 



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 07, 2016, 04:41:24 pm
...another hotel? I'm not a hotelier in Tulsa so I don't know what the demand is like, but as a layman I feel like we have a an inordinate amount of hotels in the works relative to apartment buildings.

I think we have 6 hotels going in (With OnePlace Tower, behind Wright Building, part of Santa Fe Square, Holiday Inn in the Brady, right across from the Courthouse and just announced Tulsa Club)  and I think we have 7 apartment buildings going in or finishing up (Davenport Lofts, Edge, Enterprise, across from the Ballpark, part of Santa Fe Square, YMCA, and 1st Place Lofts). And for every new hotel finished, it seems like there is a new residential project that also finished.

A report in 2014 showed a lack of hotels in spite of a booming downtown- and we hadn't had much downtown hotel growth for a very long time:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/analyst-promotes-rosy-outlook-for-tulsa-s-hotel-industry/article_124a0aca-350d-5674-9e6b-d4ecdc289924.html?_dc=389031193179.11774
http://www.newson6.com/story/28088686/tulsa-developer-booming-downtown-in-need-of-new-hotels

That's when plans for hotels started popping up en mass. Then being added to. Then some more.  The people building them aren't newbies and the flags they are hoisting are established hotel brands that wouldn't agree to brand a hotel if they thought it was likely to fail. The Schneiders have done three, one after the other (Mayo, alot, . The Ross Group has part of three that are going in right now, and just announced this one.  My guess is they know what they are doing.

It probably seems like a lot because we are seeing boutique hotels go in.  100 rooms here, 120 there, 79 there, 105 here.   None of these are giants. All told  I'd be surprised if it was more than 600 rooms.

For perspective, the Downtown Double Tree is 417.  The Hyatt is 454. The Holiday Inn downtown is 220. Instead of getting one new "convention center" hotel and a couple of boutiques, we will get five or 5 boutique hotels.   Pluses and minuses I suppose, but with the addition of the BOK Center, Ballpark, resurgence of Cain's, and people now wanting to stay near the Blue Dome/Brady and events like Tulsa Tough, not too mention no real growth for a decade+... adding hotel rooms makes sense.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/yet-another-new-downtown-tulsa-hotel-planned-this-time-near/article_bfcef537-a412-54a2-b211-7a0255d0efe8.html
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/the-planned-hotels-for-downtown-tulsa-are-still-coming-/article_353d261e-f7a8-5fc5-819a-3613e913f3e6.html

Downtown OKC has ~5600 hotel rooms listed as "City Center," but that really looks to be about a 10 minute drive from downtown.  There are ~1500 in the immediate downtown area.

Tulsa has downtown has ~1600 downtown now, but the next ring of hotels is along I-44 and doesn't come close to the number of rooms OKC has in total. Though, the booming casino build may fill that gap (but also provides reasons to fill those rooms).

http://www.meetings-conventions.com/Meeting-Facilities/Tulsa-OK/Hotels?ml=1&st=mtgspc&stod=1&lat=36.149777&long=-95.993398&bz=12


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 07, 2016, 04:42:22 pm
I love the work the Ross Group is doing, and I'm thrilled this jewel in our art deco crown is getting polished. If another Bruce Goff building was lost I would probably throw up my hands and quit. So I want to put this as delicately as possible: another hotel? I'm not a hotelier in Tulsa so I don't know what the demand is like, but as a layman I feel like we have a an inordinate amount of hotels in the works relative to apartment buildings.

I agree. So many hotels yet no one wants to make <$400k condos downtown (too low margin? Not enough demand?). So many hotels being built downtown. Thousands of units. How will those get by during the slow season, most of the year? I can't imagine thousands of rooms being booked downtown every single weekend. I know an article earlier this year said we're still far below what is needed in Tulsa for current events and to attract larger events.

I am skeptical we really need THAT many. I am guessing a lot of that is hotel location preference has changed (which is good). Of the existing hotel demand in Tulsa, more would be downtown if that were an option, especially during big events. These new hotels will expand the market slightly if they offer something unique (See Aloft; Or the only hotel in the Brady; right across from BOK Center), but will mostly just siphon market share from existing hotels which are older and further out. Not terrible, that's how it works, and it should bring in more guests to downtown.

Already, you can stay at several of the hotels downtown for around $70/night (especially last minute). That is getting close to the standard rates at the old I44/BA interchange hotel cluster which is a terrible location, albeit convenient for travelers.

I just did a quick search of some of the highest demand days of the year: Dec 23-26 and looks like every hotel downtown has availability. Mayo is the only one above $100/night! Those are the cheapest downtown rates I've seen in a big city any time, especially during a holiday weekend! Maybe they want downtown hotels to all compete with the likes of Motel 6!


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 07, 2016, 04:53:43 pm
It probably seems like a lot because we are seeing boutique hotels go in.  100 rooms here, 120 there, 79 there, 105 here.   None of these are giants. All told  I'd be surprised if it was more than 600 rooms.

For perspective, the Downtown Double Tree is 417.  The Hyatt is 454. The Holiday Inn downtown is 220. Instead of getting one new "convention center" hotel and a couple of boutiques, we will get five or 5 boutique hotels.   Pluses and minuses I suppose, but with the addition of the BOK Center, Ballpark, resurgence of Cain's, and people now wanting to stay near the Blue Dome/Brady and events like Tulsa Tough, not too mention no real growth for a decade+... adding hotel rooms makes sense.



That makes sense. Still I would be a bit concerned if I had a big hotel underway and I saw the pricing and availability of existing hotels downtown, not to mention the emergence of Airbnb and Homeaway/VRBO. Tulsa is a cheap hotel market but still, if you are building a new expensive hotel, you probably can't afford to weather the low season and drop to ultra-cheap prices like the Hyatt or Double Tree.

That report was about all hotels soaring in demand around the US, although it did say the downtown Tulsa/Airport market was doing better. There are several new hotels in other parts of Tulsa and suburbs also. I wonder what vacancy rates are at the existing hotels this year (I'd guess oil has taken its toll).


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 07, 2016, 04:55:37 pm
1. Not thousands of rooms.  To get to thousands of rooms Tulsa would need to build ~20 new hotels downtown.

2. Christmas is a slow time for hotels. People who travel for the holidays dis-proportionally stay with family. The major events are over, tours and shows are generally dormant, athletic events slow down.

Lets look downtown next June during Tulsa Tough...  3 rooms left at the Hyatt, 5 at the Marriot, 5 at the Fairfield, 4 at the Mayo, 5 left at the Ambassador.  Searching for the next weekend we find much the same thing, even after Tulsa Tough is over. Average room rate is $90, 3 star + is $110, 4 star is $220 - a week after Tulsa Tough. And that's 6 months out trying to find ONE room (try to book a block for a team of 6 with 2 staff...).  Pick a random weekend in February, a bit more availability, but still.

Not, I'm sure they reserve rooms from Expedia - but most of the hotels outside of downtown show unlimited availability (not "4 left").

3. Again, the people building are not new to the Tulsa hotel market.  They know the margins, the occupancy rates, the competition that is on the way. If some Las Vegas hotel guy came in and wanted to drop an 800 room convention center... mabe I'd worry about its long term viability. But these people are local and seem to be in the know.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Bamboo World on December 07, 2016, 05:56:48 pm

The Tulsa Historical Society and Museum has an online image showing the building under construction, with the Atlas Life Building in the background and houses at 502 and 504 South Cincinnati Avenue in the foreground:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/pastperfectonline/images/museum_283/030/2014018026.jpg)
Source: Tulsa Historical Society and Museum

I'm guessing the date is early 1927.



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on December 07, 2016, 06:31:17 pm
These people are local and seem to be in the know.

Fair 'nuff.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on December 07, 2016, 07:41:20 pm
Putting in some rough math:

I believe the Tulsa Club will have 92 hotel rooms.  Total space in the building is reputedly 92,000 ft over 11 floors.  I believe they said two floors will be common areas so average room size should be around 800 or so feet.  At an average rate of $125/night assuming rack rate will be $150 or higher as a boutique hotel.  IIRC, expected occupancy is an average of 90% at least when I interviewed for the marketing director position at Adam’s Mark in 1994.  That works out to roughly $3.8 million/year with no food & beverage revenue added in.

So, let’s have some fun with this:

I believe Ross was investing $20 million in this project.  

Let’s assume you can either spend $20 million on 46 x 1600 square foot apartments or 92 x 800 square foot hotel rooms.  Naturally, there is a higher staffing and operating cost as a hotel but the gross revenue is 2-3 times than that of an apartment complex depending on how much the owner planned to charge per foot as apartments.

Renovate it as 1600/ft. apartments for $2000/month ($1.25/ft) and you get $24,000 in revenue per unit/year over 46 units and you gross $1.1 million per year.  Bump that to $2.00/ft and it still only grosses $1.76 million per year.  Even at an egregious $3/ft you would only gross $2.65 million per year

Add in half your hotel room revenue in F & B sales and it makes pretty good sense you could do better as a hotel.  Add in ballroom sales and special events like weddings and well, it keeps adding up.

As a simple matter of economics, shorter term rentals on your space will or at least should always generate more revenue than longer term contracts.

Since this is a really iconic property similar in stature to The Mayo or Ambassador, you likely can charge a bit more than the average downtown Tulsa room rate assuming management will be really good for the foreseeable future.

I did pull up rates from Expedia during Chili Bowl week 2017 to get an idea during peak events what rooms go for and I’m really surprised downtown Tulsa doesn’t command quite the rates of other places my wife and I travel to in their city center.  That does make one wonder if that means there already is a bigger supply than demand or people simply have not gotten the idea there are more rooms in downtown so they take something a few miles out.  Of course Expedia may be screwy as the Expo Inn at the fairgrounds actually does show some available rooms during the Chili Bowl which I find hard to believe since it’s a few hundred feet from the Expo Building.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 07, 2016, 08:49:50 pm
Nice.  Very nice.



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 08, 2016, 08:35:06 am
1. Not thousands of rooms.  To get to thousands of rooms Tulsa would need to build ~20 new hotels downtown.


I understand. I was being a bit facetious and I read your earlier post saying hundreds are being added. Nevertheless, the delay in some of those projects has to make you wonder if the oil downturn and other proposed developments scared some off with the prospect of new competition. Years ago there was one announced somewhat northwest of McNellies by railroad track... I have not seen or heard of any progress.


2. Christmas is a slow time for hotels. People who travel for the holidays dis-proportionally stay with family. The major events are over, tours and shows are generally dormant, athletic events slow down.


No, in Oklahoma, Christmas is one of the busier times. I used to work in a hotel and a close family member I live with still does. Most of January (outside of the chili bowl) early March are the really slow times. Besides big events and holidays, most weeks in Nov-Dec are also slow, but Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years are typically the busiest times in winter. You can argue Christmas is slower than a typical weekend in the summer/fall, but it is a peak for winter. Many people do not like staying with family over the holidays.


Lets look downtown next June during Tulsa Tough...  3 rooms left at the Hyatt, 5 at the Marriot, 5 at the Fairfield, 4 at the Mayo, 5 left at the Ambassador.  Searching for the next weekend we find much the same thing, even after Tulsa Tough is over. Average room rate is $90, 3 star + is $110, 4 star is $220 - a week after Tulsa Tough. And that's 6 months out trying to find ONE room (try to book a block for a team of 6 with 2 staff...).  Pick a random weekend in February, a bit more availability, but still.


Basically all summer is peak season compared to the winter, especially early summer while weather is still decent and school is out. It makes sense Tulsa Tough would be close to sold out. Some of those hotels only allow very early booking of certain number of rooms to give the impression of limited supply. Even in summer, many weekends you can still get hotel rooms downtown for $70-$80/night, even at newly renovated iloft. If that is an acceptable rate to the investors, then great. Building more hotels to accommodate the few sold-out weekends a year seems wasteful, but the margins on hotels can be pretty high so it makes sense investors are willing to do it.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 08, 2016, 09:01:12 am
Putting in some rough math:

I believe the Tulsa Club will have 92 hotel rooms.  Total space in the building is reputedly 92,000 ft over 11 floors.  I believe they said two floors will be common areas so average room size should be around 800 or so feet.  At an average rate of $125/night assuming rack rate will be $150 or higher as a boutique hotel.  IIRC, expected occupancy is an average of 90% at least when I interviewed for the marketing director position at Adam’s Mark in 1994.  That works out to roughly $3.8 million/year with no food & beverage revenue added in.

Maybe occupancy used to be around 90%, but I highly doubt hotels are getting close to that. Hotels are lucrative and they can still be very profitable at 40% occupancy rate (which is the case for some hotels: on average weekends and 1 other day is booked per room per week), but if they made their proposals with 90% occupancy, the numbers will likely be very far off. The $3.8 million sounds great on paper but when that ends up being closer to $2 million and you consider all of the extra maintenance, construction costs and employees, it is often in the range of 10-20% more profitable than apartments. Still well worth it many times and revenue is far higher so you have a chance to make even more. If they can keep 90% occupancy at good rates (like Embassy Suites does through their brand), then it is more like double the profit of apartments. And of course events/bar/restaurant can add much  more profit if done well. I understand why more are being built, but similar to oil prices: they can keep drilling like crazy and eventually everyone is going to lose.

I did pull up rates from Expedia during Chili Bowl week 2017 to get an idea during peak events what rooms go for and I’m really surprised downtown Tulsa doesn’t command quite the rates of other places my wife and I travel to in their city center.  That does make one wonder if that means there already is a bigger supply than demand or people simply have not gotten the idea there are more rooms in downtown so they take something a few miles out.  Of course Expedia may be screwy as the Expo Inn at the fairgrounds actually does show some available rooms during the Chili Bowl which I find hard to believe since it’s a few hundred feet from the Expo Building.

That is basically the gist of what I was saying. Rates are already low, even for newer properties. Adding more competition will probably reduce them more (unless downtown really takes off, oil booms again and other things bring a lot more events downtown long-term). Many other downtowns cost $100+ any time and $200+ on weekends/events. For the price of some of the "premier" hotels in Tulsa (that are very nice), you would get a La Quinta or some other nasty hotel in Dallas.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 08, 2016, 09:06:01 am
Tulsa World reports they are still working on City approval of the tax abatement, with a presentation yesterday:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-club-building-renovation-seeking-tax-abatement-from-city-before/article_c740ebf1-86bb-58e4-b232-f9f141c1a028.html

The vote is coming up at some future meeting.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 08, 2016, 09:43:57 am
I think there are a couple more hotels not on your list (the one NW of McNellies by RR - is that the 105-room Holiday Inn Express? Or maybe it was cancelled) and the Residence Inn by the YMCA lofts (110 rooms). Also a 134-room Hilton Garden Inn and a 103-room hotel in the Boston Building. That's 242-347 more rooms right there.

All the hotel announcements reminds me a bit of all the outlet mall announcements, when only 1 actually gets built. Although most will get built, maybe some of it is to strong-arm the other guys into not building in an increasingly crowded market. The Patels already cancelled 1 hotel project for a 100 room hotel in the Parker Drilling Building. Tax-incentives were required for Mayo and iloft (180 rooms) to be worth it and are required to make the Tulsa Club remodel worth it. Without those, would any investor have done those remodels? For the hoteliers building new buildings with no tax incentives, you'd have to step back and reevaluate and maybe wait to see how the market adjusts.

Another recent hotel is the Best Western Plus (79-room) and the Ambassador remodel.

I am all for new development downtown and new hotels. I hope things continue to pick up and make investments in downtown pay off so more comes later on. And honestly, if they are ok with $70-$90/night rooms, that's great for the consumer. It sucks paying $250 for a mediocre place in other cities when you can get a great place for $80 here. I need to move somewhere else so I can take advantage of our cheap hotel rates!


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on December 08, 2016, 10:40:36 am
Maybe occupancy used to be around 90%, but I highly doubt hotels are getting close to that. Hotels are lucrative and they can still be very profitable at 40% occupancy rate (which is the case for some hotels: on average weekends and 1 other day is booked per room per week), but if they made their proposals with 90% occupancy, the numbers will likely be very far off. The $3.8 million sounds great on paper but when that ends up being closer to $2 million and you consider all of the extra maintenance, construction costs and employees, it is often in the range of 10-20% more profitable than apartments. Still well worth it many times and revenue is far higher so you have a chance to make even more. If they can keep 90% occupancy at good rates (like Embassy Suites does through their brand), then it is more like double the profit of apartments. And of course events/bar/restaurant can add much  more profit if done well. I understand why more are being built, but similar to oil prices: they can keep drilling like crazy and eventually everyone is going to lose.

That is basically the gist of what I was saying. Rates are already low, even for newer properties. Adding more competition will probably reduce them more (unless downtown really takes off, oil booms again and other things bring a lot more events downtown long-term). Many other downtowns cost $100+ any time and $200+ on weekends/events. For the price of some of the "premier" hotels in Tulsa (that are very nice), you would get a La Quinta or some other nasty hotel in Dallas.

Great analysis and thank you for bringing me up to speed more on what the expectations are for occupancy on larger properties.

We are opening a B & B in Cimarron, New Mexico and for all of my forecasting and business planning, I used 50% which is standard for that industry.  I started to use that for the numbers I ran on my previous post but remembered 90% was what the stated goal was 22 years ago when I was interviewing for that job. 

Our B & B will peak in spring, summer, and fall and will likely fall off during winter as the closest skiing is Angel Fire at 34 mies away.  Still, there are people who prefer not to be in the midst of the ski area their entire trip.  We are used to the idea of committing to ski as we have skied Wolf Creek many times and you have to commute 30-45 minutes from the nearest towns to ski there, which is not a big deal.  Hunting season does run through January so there’s that business still and there are other longer term rental opportunities when there are major infrastructure projects going in the area or down at Philmont Scout Ranch as there are not a lot of rooms available, nor is there a wide selection of restaurants to choose from where our place is so a B & B is quite an attractive option in the area for many reasons. 


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: rebound on December 08, 2016, 11:19:18 am
Great analysis and thank you for bringing me up to speed more on what the expectations are for occupancy on larger properties.

We are opening a B & B in Cimarron, New Mexico and for all of my forecasting and business planning, I used 50% which is standard for that industry.  I started to use that for the numbers I ran on my previous post but remembered 90% was what the stated goal was 22 years ago when I was interviewing for that job. 

Our B & B will peak in spring, summer, and fall and will likely fall off during winter as the closest skiing is Angel Fire at 34 mies away.  Still, there are people who prefer not to be in the midst of the ski area their entire trip.  We are used to the idea of committing to ski as we have skied Wolf Creek many times and you have to commute 30-45 minutes from the nearest towns to ski there, which is not a big deal.  Hunting season does run through January so there’s that business still and there are other longer term rental opportunities when there are major infrastructure projects going in the area or down at Philmont Scout Ranch as there are not a lot of rooms available, nor is there a wide selection of restaurants to choose from where our place is so a B & B is quite an attractive option in the area for many reasons. 

Slight Drift...
Don't forget fly fishing as a target market for your B&B.  The Cimarron is an excellent fly fishing stream.   The local guides often have relationships where they recommend places to stay.  You should reach out to all of them and see if you can set up some kind of referral arrangement.
 


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 08, 2016, 11:28:47 am
I think there are a couple more hotels not on your list (the one NW of McNellies by RR - is that the 105-room Holiday Inn Express? Or maybe it was cancelled) and the Residence Inn by the YMCA lofts (110 rooms). Also a 134-room Hilton Garden Inn and a 103-room hotel in the Boston Building. That's 242-347 more rooms right there.

You listed the Holiday Inn
The Residence in is the one right across from the Courthouse
The Hilton Garden Inn is directly behind the Wright Building

My descriptions were lacking, I admit it!  But I did cover those.

I'm not up to date on the Boston building.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Bamboo World on December 08, 2016, 08:18:28 pm


Putting in some rough math:

I believe the Tulsa Club will have 92 hotel rooms.  Total space in the building is reputedly 92,000 ft over 11 floors.  I believe they said two floors will be common areas so average room size should be around 800 or so feet.  At an average rate of $125/night assuming rack rate will be $150 or higher as a boutique hotel...


The plans show 98 rooms on six levels of the building.


Rooms #1 - #6 on Level 03 each about 14' x 19' = approximately 266 sq ft each

Rooms #7 - #10 on Level 03 each about 12'-6" x 20' = approximately 250 sq ft each

Room #11 at southeast corner of Level 03 = about 12'-7" x 27' = approximately 340 sq ft

Rooms #12 - #18 on Level 03 each about 12' x 19' = approximately 230 sq ft each

Room #19 at southwest corner of Level 03 = approximately 260 sq ft


Rooms #20 - #25 on Level 04 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #26 - #29 on Level 04 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #30 at southeast corner of Level 04 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #31 - #36 on Level 04 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #37 at southwest corner of Level 04 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #38 - #43 on Level 05 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #44 - #47 on Level 05 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #48 at southeast corner of Level 05 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #49 - #54 on Level 05 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #55 at southwest corner of Level 05 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #56 - #61 on Level 06 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #62 - #65 on Level 06 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #66 at southeast corner of Level 06 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #67 - #72 on Level 06 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #73 at southwest corner of Level 06 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #74 - #79 on Level 07 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #80 - #83 on Level 07 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #84 at southeast corner of Level 07 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #85 - #90 on Level 07 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #91 at southwest corner of Level 07 = approximately 500 sq ft


Suite #92 on Level 08 about 24'-6" x 36'-4" = approximately 890 sq ft

Suite #93 on Level 08 = approximately 744 sq ft

Suite #94 on east side of Level 08 = approximately 1,600 sq ft

Rooms #95 - #97 on Level 08 each about 18' x 24'-6" = approximately 440 sq ft each

Suite #98 at southwest corner of Level 08 = approximately 675 sq ft

----

Summary: 

7 @ 230 sq ft
4 @ 250 sq ft
17 @ 260 sq ft
6 @ 266 sq ft
4 @ 300 sq ft
24 @ 325 sq ft
1@ 340 sq ft
24 @ 380 sq ft
3 @ 440 sq ft
4 @ 500 sq ft
1@ 675 sq ft
1@ 744 sq ft
1 @ 890 sq ft
1 @ 1,600 sq ft

The online plans are not worked out in terms of walls/existing windows.  There are columns near the middle of some of the rooms.  But those types of issues can be resolved as the design is developed.  Emergency egress near the northeast corner of the building appears to be relying on an exterior fire escape.

The view out the window shown is perplexing.  It appears to be a mirrored image of Tulsa's skyline -- from a vantage point somewhere south of the downtown area -- no where near the Tulsa Club Building.  The view from many of the north rooms will be looking at the side of parking garage a few feet away, which might not matter to many people staying there. 



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on December 09, 2016, 08:49:21 am
The plans show 98 rooms on six levels of the building.


Rooms #1 - #6 on Level 03 each about 14' x 19' = approximately 266 sq ft each

Rooms #7 - #10 on Level 03 each about 12'-6" x 20' = approximately 250 sq ft each

Room #11 at southeast corner of Level 03 = about 12'-7" x 27' = approximately 340 sq ft

Rooms #12 - #18 on Level 03 each about 12' x 19' = approximately 230 sq ft each

Room #19 at southwest corner of Level 03 = approximately 260 sq ft


Rooms #20 - #25 on Level 04 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #26 - #29 on Level 04 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #30 at southeast corner of Level 04 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #31 - #36 on Level 04 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #37 at southwest corner of Level 04 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #38 - #43 on Level 05 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #44 - #47 on Level 05 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #48 at southeast corner of Level 05 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #49 - #54 on Level 05 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #55 at southwest corner of Level 05 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #56 - #61 on Level 06 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #62 - #65 on Level 06 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #66 at southeast corner of Level 06 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #67 - #72 on Level 06 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #73 at southwest corner of Level 06 = approximately 500 sq ft


Rooms #74 - #79 on Level 07 each about 14' x 27' = approximately 380 sq ft each

Rooms #80 - #83 on Level 07 each about 13' x 20' = approximately 260 sq ft each

Room #84 at southeast corner of Level 07 = approximately 300 sq ft

Rooms #85 - #90 on Level 07 each about 12' x 27' = approximately 325 sq ft each

Room #91 at southwest corner of Level 07 = approximately 500 sq ft


Suite #92 on Level 08 about 24'-6" x 36'-4" = approximately 890 sq ft

Suite #93 on Level 08 = approximately 744 sq ft

Suite #94 on east side of Level 08 = approximately 1,600 sq ft

Rooms #95 - #97 on Level 08 each about 18' x 24'-6" = approximately 440 sq ft each

Suite #98 at southwest corner of Level 08 = approximately 675 sq ft

----

Summary: 

7 @ 230 sq ft
4 @ 250 sq ft
17 @ 260 sq ft
6 @ 266 sq ft
4 @ 300 sq ft
24 @ 325 sq ft
1@ 340 sq ft
24 @ 380 sq ft
3 @ 440 sq ft
4 @ 500 sq ft
1@ 675 sq ft
1@ 744 sq ft
1 @ 890 sq ft
1 @ 1,600 sq ft

The online plans are not worked out in terms of walls/existing windows.  There are columns near the middle of some of the rooms.  But those types of issues can be resolved as the design is developed.  Emergency egress near the northeast corner of the building appears to be relying on an exterior fire escape.

The view out the window shown is perplexing.  It appears to be a mirrored image of Tulsa's skyline -- from a vantage point somewhere south of the downtown area -- no where near the Tulsa Club Building.  The view from many of the north rooms will be looking at the side of parking garage a few feet away, which might not matter to many people staying there. 



That’s a far better rental rate per square foot than I thought and means there are a few extra floors for office or conference space?  Any ideas there?

I believe this is the most exciting re-development news since work finally commenced on the Mayo for the final time.



Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: SXSW on December 09, 2016, 03:33:44 pm
I recently stayed at the new Museum 21c hotel in OKC.  It's in an old warehouse/factory building on the west side of downtown.  Cool place and something similar would be neat to see in the Tulsa Club.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Bamboo World on December 09, 2016, 06:05:47 pm


I recently stayed at the new Museum 21c hotel in OKC.  It's in an old warehouse/factory building on the west side of downtown.  Cool place and something similar would be neat to see in the Tulsa Club.


Thanks for mentioning the OKC 21c Museum Hotel, SXSW.  I looked at their website (http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/oklahomacity/stay/rooms-suites/), and was happy to see the various room/suite sizes and floor plans, along with photos.  The huge windows there probably made some of the partitions much more difficult to lay out and to build, compared to the relatively smaller windows at the Tulsa Club Building.


That’s a far better rental rate per square foot than I thought and means there are a few extra floors for office or conference space?  Any ideas there?


See the links in cannon_fodder's initial post for conceptual floor plans, proposed restaurant area, hotel support spaces, pro forma, etc.
 


Title: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: AdamsHall on December 29, 2016, 10:39:57 am
I noticed they were installing a construction debris chute yesterday on the south face of the building.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2017, 02:31:32 pm
Great analysis and thank you for bringing me up to speed more on what the expectations are for occupancy on larger properties.

We are opening a B & B in Cimarron, New Mexico and for all of my forecasting and business planning, I used 50% which is standard for that industry.  I started to use that for the numbers I ran on my previous post but remembered 90% was what the stated goal was 22 years ago when I was interviewing for that job. 

Our B & B will peak in spring, summer, and fall and will likely fall off during winter as the closest skiing is Angel Fire at 34 mies away.  Still, there are people who prefer not to be in the midst of the ski area their entire trip.  We are used to the idea of committing to ski as we have skied Wolf Creek many times and you have to commute 30-45 minutes from the nearest towns to ski there, which is not a big deal.  Hunting season does run through January so there’s that business still and there are other longer term rental opportunities when there are major infrastructure projects going in the area or down at Philmont Scout Ranch as there are not a lot of rooms available, nor is there a wide selection of restaurants to choose from where our place is so a B & B is quite an attractive option in the area for many reasons. 


Beautiful area!   Wish you very well !!   When are you gonna open it up?   Or is it already??

We stayed at a B&B in east TN a few months ago that had several long term guys there doing months of construction in the area - the owner had just bought the place about 30 days earlier and was thrilled about having those long terms...can work very well.




Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on January 03, 2017, 04:29:29 pm

Beautiful area!   Wish you very well !!   When are you gonna open it up?   Or is it already??

We stayed at a B&B in east TN a few months ago that had several long term guys there doing months of construction in the area - the owner had just bought the place about 30 days earlier and was thrilled about having those long terms...can work very well.


We will be there full time by April 1 and will start taking bookings in early June. 


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: BKDotCom on October 06, 2017, 07:42:15 am
Update
Not much to see yet...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-tour-of-tulsa-club-building/collection_dbac4447-059e-59f8-a332-23a3a4126745.html


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 06, 2017, 12:16:01 pm
Update
Not much to see yet...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-tour-of-tulsa-club-building/collection_dbac4447-059e-59f8-a332-23a3a4126745.html

At least it is cleaned up so you can see the shape of the rooms and remnants of old tile which is interesting.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: Conan71 on October 06, 2017, 07:20:41 pm
Tulsa is pretty fortunate to have someone like the Ross Group and the Sniders to repurpose these old buildings.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: sgrizzle on October 07, 2017, 06:35:15 pm
Tulsa is pretty fortunate to have someone like the Ross Group and the Sniders to repurpose these old buildings.

Two groups which will be making money hand over fist in a few years leaving other developers and property owners who have done absolutely nothing crying fowl.


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 16, 2017, 09:41:58 am
Update on the Club Building:

Quote
City councilors get closer look at Tulsa Club building restoration work

Ben Kimbro likes to brag about the Tulsa Club building. Wherever his work takes him, whether it be London or Hong Kong or Guadalajara, he brags on it.

Wednesday, he stuck around home and touted the downtown building’s virtues to his fellow city councilors.

“If you’ve lived in Tulsa and you have a little gray hair, you have a tie to this building,” Kimbro said. “You have an Easter brunch, a wedding reception or a Christmas party, or some fond memory tied to this building.

“So to see it come back better than ever, yeah, I’m exceedingly proud of the guys I work with.”

Kimbro led the tour because his day job is at Ross Group, the Tulsa construction company that spent $1.5 million in 2015 to buy the long-neglected art deco building at 115 E. Fifth St. The company is spending $22.5 million to rebuild it into a posh, 96-room boutique hotel that will be operated by Tulsa-based Promise Hotels.

It is expected to open in about a year, Kimbro said.

“One of the things that, certainly not me, but the Ross Group does really well are historic renovations,” the councilor said.

For the Tulsa Club building, the renovation has been a long time coming. The 11-story structure was built in 1927 as a joint venture between the Tulsa Club and the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce. In its heyday, the building had visits from stars like John Wayne and Rita Hayworth.

But since 1994, when the Tulsa Club closed, it has been beset by absentee owners and vagrants looking for shelter.

Wednesday’s tour was the first opportunity many city councilors had ever had to step inside the building. And that can be a trip. Long the forgotten haunt of the homeless, the inside walls are still covered with graffiti in many areas. Some of it actually looks cool.

“Little by little, some of my favorites are going away,” Kimbro joked. “I’ve got photos to preserve them.”

But what is coming is expected to be out of this world. Kimbro said he believes the hotel’s ballroom will be the best in the state. Sixty of the 96 rooms will have unique layouts. Plans also call for a roof-top terrace and fine dining. Valet and car service will also be available.

Standing in the ballroom, Councilor Phil Lakin recalled his two previous visits to the building, including one for a high school social function.

“It was a cool place to get to come to because it was downtown,” Lakin said. “I’m a south Tulsa guy, so I rarely even came downtown.

“I specifically remember looking out these big windows toward the east and looking down and thinking how cool downtown was.”

Councilor Jeannie Cue, who had never been inside the building before Wednesday, said she loves all of the historic preservation going on around the city.

“It brings a lot of history back and makes our city unique,” she said. “We’re blessed to have citizens investing back in our community.”

Kimbro, senior director for special projects for the Ross Group, reminded anyone within earshot that without the historic tax credits, the Tulsa Club property would be a parking lot.

Thanks to those credits, the city is set to reap a great financial windfall, he said.

“Without the miracle of historic tax credits, we wouldn’t have changed the value of this building up north of $50 million onto the tax rolls,” he said.


Article:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/city-councilors-get-closer-look-at-tulsa-club-building-restoration/article_243fb6fd-395c-5fa0-8d5a-ad27ee9cb3a1.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/city-councilors-get-closer-look-at-tulsa-club-building-restoration/article_243fb6fd-395c-5fa0-8d5a-ad27ee9cb3a1.html)

Updated photo gallery:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/updated-gallery-more-photos-from-inside-the-tulsa-club/collection_f92692b3-62dc-5415-b9b6-fbec3682e4db.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/updated-gallery-more-photos-from-inside-the-tulsa-club/collection_f92692b3-62dc-5415-b9b6-fbec3682e4db.html)


Title: Re: Tulsa Club Building - Ross Group to begin renovations
Post by: AdamsHall on November 16, 2017, 10:33:33 am
Really excited about this project.