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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: Conan71 on November 09, 2016, 10:24:31 am



Title: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 09, 2016, 10:24:31 am
Let’s keep this off personal attacks on Trump’s character, prior misdeeds, etc. and focus on the issues and implications of a Trump presidency.  If you are not capable of talking about the issues, then please don’t post.  I’m still rather stunned by the results last night and I’ve not been a Trump fan all along but he will be POTUS for the next four years and he made some pretty tall promises during his campaign.

-Immigration: Will he fulfill his promise of sealing the borders and vetting Muslim immigrants?

-Obamacare: What would happen with a full repeal, is it even possible?

-Hillary Clinton: Will there be a follow-through on continuing to investigate her email issue and allegations of pay-to-play at the CFF?

-NAFTA & TPP: What happens with a repeal of these and would it mean bringing jobs to the rust belt?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 09, 2016, 11:05:06 am
Immigration - I hope that he finally becomes the person to follow through on reform and enforcement of the borders. I don't see people rounding illegals up and putting them on trains, that's pure BS. I think what they are going to have to do is change they pathway to become a citizen, it shouldn't take seven to ten years for a someone to become a citizen. I do agree that there needs to be a better vetting system for all immigrants you can't just target certain groups.

Obama care - Never will be gotten rid of, too massive. I believe that there needs to be changes but this is going to need an overhaul of the practices and standards of pharma, the medical industry, and the insurance companies.

NAFTA & TPP - Also something that I don't think you can just get rid of, but will be altered and changed as well as there will need to be a major change in the tax and tariff rules and laws as well as changes to the tax codes for business to give them an incentive to keep or bring work back to the US.

Hillary - If anything further is done, and I know it will, it has to be an independent non-partisan investigation (yeah I know, I'm dreaming) if there is to be any kind of resolution. And I know that regardless of the outcome, there will be a large number of people that will claim it was rigged.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on November 09, 2016, 11:06:18 am
Let’s ... focus on the issues

Why start now?!
/rimshot

I have no idea what's in store.   The R's control congress & senate..   I'm going to guess that repealing Obamacare will be the focus.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: PonderInc on November 09, 2016, 11:39:06 am
This is all rather hard to predict because the man is nothing if not unpredictable.  Experience teaches us that words flow from his mouth, but that doesn't mean much.  It's easy to pontificate from a podium in front of adoring crowds.  Actual governing, on the other hand is hard, as any City Councilor can tell you.  Presumably, it's harder to govern a nation when you've never even bothered to serve on the  PTA, and probably can't name all the cabinet positions.

However, to me the main concerns are:

The Supreme Court - A lousy president can be voted out of office in 4 years. The Supreme Court Justices can serve for 3 decades or more.  Uncertain whether his "list" of potential nominees was real or something he googled while sitting on the pot.  Time will tell.

Jim Inhofe in charge of the Senate Environmental Committee.  We've seen this before, but not with a trifecta of republicans in the White House, House and Senate.  If you care about the future of the planet re: that pesky "hoax" climate change, you should be terrified by a 4-year setback and general lack of interest... and possibly our last chance to make significant changes before it's absolutely too late.  Long after Inhofe kicks the bucket, we'll be suffering the consequences and starting to understand Malthusian theories of population control.

The Attorney General / Justice Department - The AG has to be confirmed by the Senate, but is appointed by the president. I worry that he will appoint someone who will be soft on corporate crime, including some of his own nefarious business cases, and hard on people of color and religious minorities (despite, you know, the Constitution). I'm not sure how this will move forward.  Presumably, he would appoint someone who would be gentle to the frauds perpetuated by Trump U and his "foundation."  After that, who knows?  We've had the luxury of a justice department that cares about equality and pursues hate crimes and organized attempts at voter suppression (despite the best efforts of the Scalia Supreme Court to eviscerate the Voting Rights Act).  I guess we'll see what the flip side looks like with a AG who stands by, whistling Dixie.

Goodbye Wall Street Regulation, hello next Great Depression.  I'm sorry, but as any mom can tell you, some rules are good for you.

And while I don't believe most Trump supporters are bad people, I am worried that so many racists and xenophobes have been "activated."  Like someone poured water in the petri dish, and, hey!  Look what popped up.  The fringe elements terrify me, and I hate to see them emboldened by the "win."

I also predict a sudden surge in Google searches for "What have we done??" and "Are you F-ing kidding me?!"  Also: "How to run for elective office?"

And, in a few years, a massive swing in the pendulum back towards sanity and competence and a democratic sweep.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on November 09, 2016, 11:46:08 am
His first tweet that was later taken down was disconcerting.

Quote
On a mountain of skulls,
in the castle of pain,
I sat on a throne of blood!
What was will be!
What is will be no more!
Now is the season of evil!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 09, 2016, 11:50:08 am
I expect trade wars.

Those worked so well for us in the 19th and early 20th centuries with repeated depressions.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on November 09, 2016, 12:31:33 pm

-Obamacare: What would happen with a full repeal, is it even possible?

-Hillary Clinton: Will there be a follow-through on continuing to investigate her email issue and allegations of pay-to-play at the CFF?


Obamacare wasnt health reform, it was meant to be health insurance reform... and it accomplished some good things despite the best efforts of the health insurance industry.  CommunityCare wants another $100 a month if I want to stay in the St. John system, and I dont see that as the presidents doing.

 
Hillary -- Lankford and Friends will keep the witch burning going, maybe throw in a few books.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/elections/sen-james-lankford-says-investigations-of-hillary-clinton-will-continue/article_fe7c245c-2da2-5d99-ae93-a7edffd8f05d.html

For the purposes of this discussion, im trying to detach Trumps personality from his abilities (and its not working).
Just to accomplish the simplest tasks, is he's going to have to outsource most of his presidency to those "Washington insiders" he boasted not to be.

And while the R's currently control congress & senate, I expect a dramatic swing of the pendulum by the next election. Everyone has to sober up at some time; it will happen, and they will be pissed.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 09, 2016, 03:45:22 pm
-Immigration: Will he fulfill his promise of sealing the borders and vetting Muslim immigrants?

No. Bush tripled spending on the border patrol and spent more building walls than anyone else, it was followed by record illegal immigration. Under Obama the border patrol was enlarged again and he deported more illegal immigrants than anyone in history, yet the problem persists. Since the 1920s we've been "fixing" the issue and never have. The giant big beautiful wall is heinously expensive and those in the know (the border patrol, for instance) don't think it will do much good.

Muslim immigrants won't be vetted more than anyone else because the US Constitution remains in effect, you can't single out a religion. You can say
"countries on the terrorist watch list."

But even then, refugees won't have any more meaningful vetting because the vetting process is already the most rigorous.  They are vetted by the UN, referred to the UN High Commission on Refugees who refers them to a country (refugees don't pick),  they are then screened by the State Department, FBI, National Counter Terrorism Center, Department of Defense & Homeland Security, an in person interview with DHS, biometric screening, and medical screening  (that we know of publicly).  The screening process takes 2 years and only 50% pass.   Of those, 2% are single males between 15 and 60 ("combat age").

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infographic-screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states
http://time.com/4116619/syrian-refugees-screening-process/

Immigrants arriving under this system, and indeed all immigrants, have a much lower crime rate than our native population. Will some bad people get through? Sure. Will some turn bad after getting here? Yes. But we do better now than we ever have as a country.

No one has pointed to a flaw in the system that needs to be fixed. No one has a plan or a list of more agencies to run them through. So what are we going to fix?

Quote
-Obamacare: What would happen with a full repeal, is it even possible?

No. They will "fix" it and declare it repealed, but little of consequence will be done when its all said and done. Same basic system with minor tweaks.

Quote
-Hillary Clinton: Will there be a follow-through on continuing to investigate her email issue and allegations of pay-to-play at the CFF?

Sure. The FBI and DOJ will continue to follow through, but nothing will happen. They've said twice the email activities were non criminal. The allegations of pay-to-play never really materialized in-spite of Russian help. It quietly fades away because there isn't enough there, and no one has anything to really gain by continuing to beat that drum.

Quote
-NAFTA & TPP: What happens with a repeal of these and would it mean bringing jobs to the rust belt?

TPP doesn't exist to be repealed.

NAFTA is very unlikely to be repealed. For one thing, Mexico is our #3 export market and Canada is #1. There is $560,000,000,000.00 reasons why many Americans and American businesses don't want to see a trade war break out. There's another $600,000,000,000.00 reasons why US consumers, importers, and companies with facilities in Mexico don't want to see a trade war.  We would lose tens of billions of dollars in exports, US consumers would pay tens of billions of dollars in taxes (we would pay the import tariffs at the end of the day), and US companies would lose hundreds of billions during the adjustment.

And in the end, it is for nothing. Low-wage low-skill jobs are gone. They are not coming back unless our labor competes on price, and we don't want to compete to be the cheapest.

Manufacturing is not down. It has boomed actually. Adjusted for inflation manufacturing has more than doubled since our free trade agreements with Canada and Mexico started (1987 really). Our productivity has skyrocketed, leaving laborers behind. That''s a problem, but throwing our two largest trading partners under the bus doesn't change that. Ford isn't going to close down a Mexican plant to give Detroit workers $50 an hour to bolt hubs onto Fiestas.

Also, it is simply unulikely. The US has not broken a treaty since 1866. While Donald Trump is a populist, the Republicans that are in the House and Senate remain conservatives committed to free trade. Trump has adopted the Democratic position on this issue.

Finally, this point is opposed to the point on immigration. How are you going to "return millions" of good paying jobs to the US without causing a push AND a pull for Mexican immigration to the US?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422725/what-donald-trump-doesnt-know-about-us-trade-kevin-d-williamson
http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/06/news/economy/trump-nafta/
http://www.joc.com/regulation-policy/trade-agreements/us-trade-agreements/president-trump-would-face-herculean-task-abolishing-nafta_20160316.html

- - - - - -

Trump is a populist. He said what people wanted to hear. Most populists come crashing to reality quickly when it is time to govern. The ideas don't work, he won't risk failure on them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: saintnicster on November 09, 2016, 04:48:11 pm
free soda from the vending machines!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on November 09, 2016, 06:00:45 pm
Those rust belt jobs are gone for ever and will not return despite Mr. Trump's promises. The forges and mills were built largely to fight WW2. They were labor intensive unlike a modern, largely automated plant. None of the steel companies are interested except for some specialty manufacturers. Besides, the environmental regulations alone would be an impossible hurdle. You need coke (processed coal that's heated to drive off tar and other nasties) and no one wants a coke plant nearby.

There was a reason Pittsburgh was called the Smoky City back in the day, with polluted water, polluted air, and cancer clusters.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 09, 2016, 10:04:48 pm
Wait, so this guy says he wants a database for Muslims and belittles women yet we can't attack his character?

Sophisticated conversations regarding him went out of the window when he got a Twitter account.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 09, 2016, 10:05:38 pm
Wait, so this guy says he wants a database for Muslims and belittles women yet we can't attack his character?

Sophisticated conversations regarding him went out of the window when he got a Twitter account.

Database for Muslims. That's the issue I'll start with...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on November 10, 2016, 08:31:24 am
Wait, so this guy says he wants a database for Muslims and belittles women yet we can't attack his character?

belittles women (and veterans, disabilities, not-meeting-his-idea-of-attractiveness, etc)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 10, 2016, 09:04:42 am
Database for Muslims. That's the issue I'll start with...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/24/donald-trumps-comments-database-american-muslims/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 10, 2016, 09:16:20 am
If you want to talk about Muslims, then talk about why or why not you think his state proposals on Muslim immigrants will happen and what the recourse would/will be. We all know what WAS said and we have discussed your (and my) opinion on the matter. Now lets move forward, the guy has to actually govern. Lets try to discuss that.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on November 10, 2016, 10:08:28 am
I don't want to ruminate on his proposals and their viability or rank. Worthless. I will just say, his first move should be to seriously consider his choices for cabinet members. The one's suggested from his campaign are going to cause problems real fast.

His second move should be to make some alliances in a legislative branch that has had virtually no interaction with him, didn't support him and don't trust him. They don't see him as a republican. They don't speak his populist language. If he doesn't use Pense to make those alliances, well, his potential power will evaporate and he'll be marginalized.

Anyone care to relate the successes of past populist presidents who collected less than 48% of the vote?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 10, 2016, 10:42:21 am
I think I have said here before - I know I have said it elsewhere - let's just go ahead and get him in and let these regressive policies do their damage and get it over with.  The quicker we get another massive recession/depression, the quicker people will have the example rubbed in their noses again...since it obviously didn't 'take' the last time...


More later....  Knowing me, probably much more...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 10, 2016, 10:47:32 am
Here’s who is being looked at by Trump for the cabinet:

Secretary of Treasury - Steven Mnuchin, 17 year Goldman Sachs guy, made Mad Max Fury Road, hedge funder
Secretary of Agriculture – Sam Brownback, Destroyed Kansas
Secretary of State – Newt Gingrich, deathbed divorce guy that gets along great with people
Chief of Staff – Reince Priebus, whatever
Attorney General - Rudy Giuliani, America’s crazy racist uncle mayor and current lobbyist
Secretary of Defense – Jeff Sessions (why? How? He was in the reserves 30 years ago?)
Secretary of the Interior – Harold Hamm, oilman and earthquake truther
Secretary of Commerce - Chris Christie, Bridge blocker
Secretary of Education – Ben Carson, semi-awake human and mumbler

What a staff!!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 11, 2016, 06:50:56 am
I'm thinking Trump may need to rethink his position on immigration. We need more Dreamers apparently. The current lot of native "Dreamers" doesn't seem to be all that bright. You know, those ditching class to protest the election.

I actually heard one on CNN saying he was concerned he was going to be deported to Guam. GUAM!

Heaven help us all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 11, 2016, 07:03:43 am
In all seriousness now. Trump will not be the end of this Union. He is not Hitler reborn.

So from Trump's own lips, here are his priorities:

In order to clean up the corruption and special interest collusion in D.C.:

* FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;
* SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);
* THIRD, a requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated;
* FOURTH, a 5 year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service;
* FIFTH, a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government;
* SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.

To protect American Workers

* FIRST, I will announce my intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205
* SECOND, I will announce our withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership
* THIRD, I will direct my Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator
* FOURTH, I will direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately
* FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.
* SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward
* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure

To restore security and the constitutional rule of law:

* FIRST, cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama
* SECOND, begin the process of selecting a replacement for Justice Scalia from one of the 20 judges on my list, who will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States
* THIRD, cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities
* FOURTH, begin removing the more than 2 million criminal illegal immigrants from the country and cancel visas to foreign countries that won't take them back
* FIFTH, suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered extreme vetting.

Next, I will work with Congress to introduce the following broader legislative measures and fight for their passage within the first 100 days of my Administration:

1. Middle Class Tax Relief And Simplification Act. An economic plan designed to grow the economy 4% per year and create at least 25 million new jobs through massive tax reduction and simplification, in combination with trade reform, regulatory relief, and lifting the restrictions on American energy. The largest tax reductions are for the middle class. A middle-class family with 2 children will get a 35% tax cut. The current number of brackets will be reduced from 7 to 3, and tax forms will likewise be greatly simplified. The business rate will be lowered from 35 to 15 percent, and the trillions of dollars of American corporate money overseas can now be brought back at a 10 percent rate.

2. End The Offshoring Act. Establishes tariffs to discourage companies from laying off their workers in order to relocate in other countries and ship their products back to the U.S. tax-free.

3. American Energy & Infrastructure Act. Leverages public-private partnerships, and private investments through tax incentives, to spur $1 trillion in infrastructure investment over 10 years. It is revenue neutral.

4. School Choice And Education Opportunity Act. Redirects education dollars to give parents the right to send their kid to the public, private, charter, magnet, religious or home school of their choice. Ends common core, brings education supervision to local communities. It expands vocational and technical education, and make 2 and 4-year college more affordable.

5. Repeal and Replace Obamacare Act. Fully repeals Obamacare and replaces it with Health Savings Accounts, the ability to purchase health insurance across state lines, and lets states manage Medicaid funds. Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.

6. Affordable Childcare and Eldercare Act. Allows Americans to deduct childcare and elder care from their taxes, incentivizes employers to provide on-side childcare services, and creates tax-free Dependent Care Savings Accounts for both young and elderly dependents, with matching contributions for low-income families.

7. End Illegal Immigration Act Fully-funds the construction of a wall on our southern border with the full understanding that the country Mexico will be reimbursing the United States for the full cost of such wall; establishes a 2-year mandatory minimum federal prison sentence for illegally re-entering the U.S. after a previous deportation, and a 5-year mandatory minimum for illegally re-entering for those with felony convictions, multiple misdemeanor convictions or two or more prior deportations; also reforms visa rules to enhance penalties for overstaying and to ensure open jobs are offered to American workers first.

8. Restoring Community Safety Act. Reduces surging crime, drugs and violence by creating a Task Force On Violent Crime and increasing funding for programs that train and assist local police; increases resources for federal law enforcement agencies and federal prosecutors to dismantle criminal gangs and put violent offenders behind bars.

9. Restoring National Security Act. Rebuilds our military by eliminating the defense sequester and expanding military investment; provides Veterans with the ability to receive public VA treatment or attend the private doctor of their choice; protects our vital infrastructure from cyber-attack; establishes new screening procedures for immigration to ensure those who are admitted to our country support our people and our values

10. Clean up Corruption in Washington Act. Enacts new ethics reforms to Drain the Swamp and reduce the corrupting influence of special interests on our politics.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 11, 2016, 08:09:50 am
I'm thinking Trump may need to rethink his position on immigration. We need more Dreamers apparently. The current lot of native "Dreamers" doesn't seem to be all that bright. You know, those ditching class to protest the election.

I actually heard one on CNN saying he was concerned he was going to be deported to Guam. GUAM!

Heaven help us all.


Oh.  You mean like this....


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republicans-react-obama-win-anger-gloom-calls-fight-article-1.1198334





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 11, 2016, 08:32:11 am
News from today:

The Baltic states are terrified of Donald Trump’s lack of commitment to NATO, Russia is looking to negotiate with Trump so they can reestablish their sphere of influence over eastern European countries. No problems could come from that, right?

Trump is looking to delay his Fraud trial over Trump University now that he has been elected

One of Putin’s top aides has now admitted that “maybe we helped a bit with WikiLeaks.” To get Trump elected.

Jim Bridenstien!!! May be made the head of NASA. Someone who completely rejects science running a scientific agency. Perfect.

Trump has appointed Myron Ebell as head of his EPA transition team. Myron thinks greenhouse gases are good for the environment. Seriously

Donald Trump wants to end Net Neutrality, giving power to huge internet providers like AT&T and Comcast to interfere with your internet access

Trump has appointed as part of his immigration transition team Kansas Sec of State Kris Kobach who has helped write laws in Arizona and Alabama that required police to racial profile people and were later found unconstitutional

White middle school students in Michigan are chanting Build that Wall at crying Hispanic students

Trump is whining about protestors and the media:
Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump
Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!
8:19 PM - 10 Nov 2016


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 11, 2016, 09:20:19 am
Watch closely - our next 20 or 30 states in the United States will be from combining with Russia....



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on November 11, 2016, 01:01:37 pm

So from Trump's own lips, here are his priorities:

10. Clean up Corruption in Washington Act. Enacts new ethics reforms to Drain the Swamp and reduce the corrupting influence of special interests on our politics.





Washington (CNN) To shape his administration, President-elect Donald Trump is drawing squarely from the "swamp" he has pledged to drain.
Trump's transition team is staffed with long-time Washington experts and lobbyists from K Street, think tanks and political offices.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/donald-trump-transition-drain-the-swamp/

Trump Campaigned Against Lobbyists, but Now They’re on His Transition Team
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/us/politics/trump-campaigned-against-lobbyists-now-theyre-on-his-transition-team.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on November 11, 2016, 01:25:40 pm



Washington (CNN) To shape his administration, President-elect Donald Trump is drawing squarely from the "swamp" he has pledged to drain.
Trump's transition team is staffed with long-time Washington experts and lobbyists from K Street, think tanks and political offices.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/donald-trump-transition-drain-the-swamp/

Trump Campaigned Against Lobbyists, but Now They’re on His Transition Team
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/us/politics/trump-campaigned-against-lobbyists-now-theyre-on-his-transition-team.html

Like not keeping his campaign promise was a surprise.  This guy is a consummate liar.  He may say he's an outsider, but he lies like a politician that's for sure.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 13, 2016, 10:30:25 am
Here’s who is being looked at by Trump for the cabinet:

Secretary of Treasury - Steven Mnuchin, 17 year Goldman Sachs guy, made Mad Max Fury Road, hedge funder
Secretary of Agriculture – Sam Brownback, Destroyed Kansas
Secretary of State – Newt Gingrich, deathbed divorce guy that gets along great with people
Chief of Staff – Reince Priebus, whatever
Attorney General - Rudy Giuliani, America’s crazy racist uncle mayor and current lobbyist
Secretary of Defense – Jeff Sessions (why? How? He was in the reserves 30 years ago?)
Secretary of the Interior – Harold Hamm, oilman and earthquake truther
Secretary of Commerce - Chris Christie, Bridge blocker
Secretary of Education – Ben Carson, semi-awake human and mumbler

What a staff!!


Insane.

Is there a complete list? I like the idea of Jamie Dimon in the cabinet.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cynical on November 13, 2016, 04:13:02 pm
Add Steve Bannon as chief strategy advisor, co-equal with Priebus.

Insane.

Is there a complete list? I like the idea of Jamie Dimon in the cabinet.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on November 13, 2016, 04:43:31 pm
News from today:

Trump is whining about protestors and the media:
Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump
Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!
8:19 PM - 10 Nov 2016

I'm curious because I've seen this "professional protesters" and "paid protesters" theme a few times in the last week. Has anyone ever interviewed a genuine professional protester, and if so, how did they turn it into a profession? I'm thinking this is typical BS intended as red meat for the base. Since we live in a post-factual world, feel free to make something up.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 13, 2016, 08:00:38 pm
Add Steve Bannon as chief strategy advisor, co-equal with Priebus.


Crazy Train, with Mr. "War On Cops!" as head of Homeland Security.
http://www.salon.com/2016/11/11/what-will-the-trump-administration-look-like-our-first-clues-are-uniformly-awful/

(http://media.salon.com/2016/11/kobach_gingrich_clarke.jpg)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on November 21, 2016, 12:20:45 pm
Immigration - I hope that he finally becomes the person to follow through on reform and enforcement of the borders. I don't see people rounding illegals up and putting them on trains, that's pure BS. I think what they are going to have to do is change they pathway to become a citizen, it shouldn't take seven to ten years for a someone to become a citizen.

or put up with crap like this

A federal judge presiding over a naturalization ceremony in San Antonio, Texas, on Friday told new U.S. citizens if they didn’t like President-elect Donald Trump, they could leave the United States.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-immigration_us_5830bac4e4b099512f833cf8




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 21, 2016, 04:06:16 pm
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/24/donald-trumps-comments-database-american-muslims/

Or you can just watch the video with him saying it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q4SDWMnjak (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q4SDWMnjak)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 21, 2016, 04:12:38 pm
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/21/race-relations-following-trumps-election/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/21/race-relations-following-trumps-election/)

I'm assuming this will only get worse. That's what happens when you elect someone who was a part of one of the largest discrimination lawsuits in history.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 10:50:01 am
...it shouldn't take seven to ten years for a someone to become a citizen.

7 to 10 seems a bit long but I have no problem with it being several years.  The requirement for English and some knowledge of our country is fair enough.   Just because US born kids don't learn it in school should not be an excuse for someone who wants to live here as a citizen instead of another country.  I do not think 5 years is unreasonable but it should not take an additional 2 to 5 years because of bureaucracy.  If the person cannot/will not learn English and civics in 5 years, it will just need to take a bit longer.

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-naturalization/path-us-citizenship



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 22, 2016, 11:02:16 am
7 to 10 seems a bit long but I have no problem with it being several years.  The requirement for English and some knowledge of our country is fair enough.   Just because US born kids don't learn it in school should not be an excuse for someone who wants to live here as a citizen instead of another country.  I do not think 5 years is unreasonable but it should not take an additional 2 to 5 years because of bureaucracy.  If the person cannot/will not learn English and civics in 5 years, it will just need to take a bit longer.

https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-naturalization/path-us-citizenship



Not everyone wants to become a citizen. I have a friend that has lived in the US since he was an infant and to my knowledge has never even been to Jamaica or the UK since he was a small child, which are the countries he technically is a citizen of. He has a green card and has just never bothered to register to become a citizen.

My own grandfather lived here almost 30 years before he became a citizen. I think my father was in high school when my grandfather finally became a citizen. My grandfather was Canadian so there were no language or civics issues for him to need to learn. My father claimed dual citizenship so technically I can too. It's my "get the Trump outta here card" if things go really south.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 22, 2016, 11:13:25 am
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/21/race-relations-following-trumps-election/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/21/race-relations-following-trumps-election/)

I'm assuming this will only get worse. That's what happens when you elect someone who was a part of one of the largest discrimination lawsuits in history.

Race relations weren’t exactly stellar under Obama.  As of a month ago 54% of Americans believed that.  The media does not help with it’s 24/7 fascination with racial discord but Obama missed key opportunities to bring people together after Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, Freddy Gray, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/politics/obama-race-relations-poll/

I do note that whites (57%) believe more than blacks (40% which I still find significant with a black president) that racial relations got worse under Obama.  That might explain why Trump energized a group of Americans who felt left behind the last eight years. 

Again people, let’s focus on our similarities instead of our differences.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 11:17:21 am
Not everyone wants to become a citizen. I have a friend that has lived in the US since he was an infant and to my knowledge has never even been to Jamaica or the UK since he was a small child, which are the countries he technically is a citizen of. He has a green card and has just never bothered to register to become a citizen.

My own grandfather lived here almost 30 years before he became a citizen. I think my father was in high school when my grandfather finally became a citizen. My grandfather was Canadian so there were no language or civics issues for him to need to learn. My father claimed dual citizenship so technically I can too. It's my "get the Trump outta here card" if things go really south.

I have no problem with (documented) permanent resident aliens.  My great grandmother on my mother's side never became a US citizen. Her daughter, my grandmother (obviously), was born in the US and my great grandmother lived to about age 87.  That was a lot of years of registering at the Post Office.  I do think if you want to live and work here you should be functional in English. My grandfather on my dad's side only spoke Polish when he came here in his late teens.  He learned English and eventually became a US citizen.  I don't care what you speak at home with the exception that English should not be excluded.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 11:30:34 am
Again people, let’s focus on our similarities instead of our differences.

I know through training at work that "Diversity" is supposed to help us embrace the differences among us.  Somehow it seems more effective at emphasizing the differences. No one wants to be an American anymore. They all want to be hyphenated Americans.  The melting pot is separating.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 22, 2016, 12:25:32 pm
I know through training at work that "Diversity" is supposed to help us embrace the differences among us.  Somehow it seems more effective at emphasizing the differences. No one wants to be an American anymore. They all want to be hyphenated Americans.  The melting pot is separating.

No, that’s not true, there have always been “others”. They just weren’t allowed at the table. Now they are and they have a voice too. You shouldn’t be threatened by that.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 04:38:48 pm
No, that’s not true, there have always been “others”. They just weren’t allowed at the table. Now they are and they have a voice too. You shouldn’t be threatened by that.

You quoted me but I don't believe you addressed my post. 

To answer you.  Yes there have always been "others".  It was not particularly popular to be "Eastern European" in the early 20th Century or even now if you listen to the initial tone on the Ancestry TV commercial.  I even had an electronics instructor in the Navy in the early 70s essentially say all persons of Polish decent were stupid and he never had one do well in his class.  I got an "A".  Groups that want to join the melting pot have contributed and adopted customs, holidays etc.  What I am seeing now seems more like trying to preserve tribes and stay different.  Think tribes in the Middle East.  You may not agree but that is what I see.

I don't feel threatened being an old white guy.  I don't believe the country will go to pieces in my lifetime.  I do resent the implication of the past election by the left leaning talking heads that all old white guys are stupid, racist......

Your results may vary.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 22, 2016, 05:08:39 pm
You quoted me but I don't believe you addressed my post. 

To answer you.  Yes there have always been "others".  It was not particularly popular to be "Eastern European" in the early 20th Century or even now if you listen to the initial tone on the Ancestry TV commercial.  I even had an electronics instructor in the Navy in the early 70s essentially say all persons of Polish decent were stupid and he never had one do well in his class.  I got an "A".  Groups that want to join the melting pot have contributed and adopted customs, holidays etc.  What I am seeing now seems more like trying to preserve tribes and stay different.  Think tribes in the Middle East.  You may not agree but that is what I see.

I don't feel threatened being an old white guy.  I don't believe the country will go to pieces in my lifetime.  I do resent the implication of the past election by the left leaning talking heads that all old white guys are stupid, racist......

Your results may vary.



When you vote for a racist bigot, the inference is easy to make


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 22, 2016, 07:27:06 pm
This isn't a new argument.

The Protestant settlers thought the Catholics  (http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp)needed to assimilate, particularly those German catholics. The English and Germans thought the Eastern Europeans needed stop with their foolish traditions and assimilate. The Irish  (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/358458451562915200/)were both Catholic and had odd customs, and demands were made that they get with the program! Then there were the Jews (https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/assimilation-in-united-states-nineteenth-century), boy oh boy did they need to learn new habits. The Chinese were accused of holding onto their customs and clinging to their own communities.  Slave owners "beat the African" out of their slaves. Native Americans were taken from their homes and forced to learn English and adopt Christianity (very "successful" assimilation story).  Italians were lynched in New Orleans in the 1890s (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/opinion/falco-italian-immigrants/). During WWI German immigrants (many of whom had been here for generations) were told to stop speaking German and be more American.

Each time the last group of immigrants joined in and told the new group that they better assimilate or they will divide the country, as they celebrated St. Patrick's day, made goulash for dinner, stopped by Chinese restaurants, danced to African inspired music, chow down on Italian food, and lament the injustices done to the Native Americans.

Nativism is as old as America. (http://www.thetimesnews.com/article/20140908/Opinion/309089801) The more hostile the country is towards a particular group, the longer it takes them to assimilate.  It is the same story, "we've" just moved on to different "thems."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 22, 2016, 09:14:22 pm
When you vote for a racist bigot, the inference is easy to make

What is the inference about the people who voted for the corrupt white heterosexual female who assisted in covering up multiple sexual assaults by a previous POTUS?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 10:02:43 pm
When you vote for a racist bigot, the inference is easy to make

You are incorrectly assuming all old white guys voted for Trump.  You are only perpetuating the stereotype process.  We won't try to list all the derogatory, discriminatory stereotypes here.  We know what they are.

You need to accept that a large number of voters did not like Hillary, even when considering the alternative of Trump.  You don't have to understand it, just accept it and move on to replacing Congress in 2 years if you think that will help.  

Edit: I am an old white guy and you do not know how I voted.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 10:04:29 pm
What is the inference about the people who voted for the corrupt white heterosexual female who assisted in covering up multiple sexual assaults by a previous POTUS?

None, she is one of the chosen ones.  She can do no wrong.
 
 ;D



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2016, 10:15:01 pm
This isn't a new argument.

The Protestant settlers thought the Catholics  (http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp)needed to assimilate, particularly those German catholics. The English and Germans thought the Eastern Europeans needed stop with their foolish traditions and assimilate. The Irish  (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/358458451562915200/)were both Catholic and had odd customs, and demands were made that they get with the program! Then there were the Jews (https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/assimilation-in-united-states-nineteenth-century), boy oh boy did they need to learn new habits. The Chinese were accused of holding onto their customs and clinging to their own communities.  Slave owners "beat the African" out of their slaves. Native Americans were taken from their homes and forced to learn English and adopt Christianity (very "successful" assimilation story).  Italians were lynched in New Orleans in the 1890s (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/opinion/falco-italian-immigrants/). During WWI German immigrants (many of whom had been here for generations) were told to stop speaking German and be more American.

Each time the last group of immigrants joined in and told the new group that they better assimilate or they will divide the country, as they celebrated St. Patrick's day, made goulash for dinner, stopped by Chinese restaurants, danced to African inspired music, chow down on Italian food, and lament the injustices done to the Native Americans.

Nativism is as old as America. (http://www.thetimesnews.com/article/20140908/Opinion/309089801) The more hostile the country is towards a particular group, the longer it takes them to assimilate.  It is the same story, "we've" just moved on to different "thems."

Are you saying that each new group should have remained in enclaves with nothing in common with each other than 46 (23 pair, I think) chromosomes?  I won't say the "initiation" process was fair.  Assimilation is 2 way in my mind as I attempted to state earlier.  How many languages should we have? English, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French, Farsi (spelling?), Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Norwegian, Swedish, Portuguese, Swahili, and every other immigrant group?  English is the common language in the US, although it was almost German.  Being multi-lingual is great but with so many different languages we really need to have one common language. Being told not to speak another language is not right but I believe a common language is a good goal.  If not, I will learn Polish and demand signs in WalMart and Lowes in Polish.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 08:25:05 am
No. The groups always assimilate. The larger mass pulls them in and we change them, as they change us marginally in their direction. It is inevitable.

I thought my point was clear - this isn't anything new. It is ugly, hateful, and unnecessary. If anything, it is counter productive and encourages the group being persecuted to avoid natives, and thus delay assimilation.

(http://socialistunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/draft_lens1956481module40156252photo_1245048244help_wanted_-_no_irish_need_apply.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8d/1a/5e/8d1a5eb4c8816a8c161d909ea66ce20b.jpg)

(http://openborders.info/wp-content/uploads/2099/11/moca11.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0d/81/e9/0d81e9a7730528a1aa53f10c40e7a99f.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/15/73/fd/1573fdf7a767a50673febc47b882a74f.jpg)

(http://www.drabruzzi.com/images/anti-catholic%20cartoon%2023.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/BritishBrothersLeaguePoster(1902).jpg)
(at the time it was understood that this was directed at the Poles)

(http://thatdevilhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/nativistposter1845.jpg)


Shall I print up some pictures of Mexicans with water dripping from their backs, buck teeth, and a fistful of stolen American dollars - maybe raping some white women in the back of a taco truck?  You know, some good ole' fashioned bigotry, to encourage them to assimilate. Then again... groups that did not face overt hostility assimilated too. Almost like being a racist jerk isn't required...

Additionally, even in large countries that are multi-lingual, a dominant language takes hold. See, for example, all of Europe - where over time the nations merged on a common language in spite of most countries having several native tongues.  Also in China, India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Russia and all over Africa. Basically, anywhere people are a common language eventually dominates. Mono-linguistics is a huge weakness for Americans, not a strength. According to most scientific analysis, we are actually held back in many regards because of it (speaking more than one language increases your cognitive abilities such as problem-solving, creativity, and memory (http://www.gli.northwestern.edu/learn-languages/benefits-of-multilingualism/)).

This isn't a real issue. Assimilation is as old as America. There is no reason to believe a 300 year trend will suddenly stop.  People for 300 years have argued that we have to stop the immigrants because they will never assimilate. They were all wrong. You're wrong too.  So don't pretend racism and bigotry is a good thing because it helps bind America together.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 08:46:33 am
What is the inference about the people who voted for the corrupt white heterosexual female who assisted in covering up multiple sexual assaults by a previous POTUS?

Perhaps they didn't want a White Nationalist as the top advisor to the President. Nor a science denying racist as AG that wants to evict all 11 million illegals from this country and wants to end LEGAL immigration. Or not have as the top person over domestic policy transition a man employed by a designated anti-gay hate group. Or someone over environmental policy that thinks that more greenhouse gasses are good. Or a often confused doctor with zero qualifications over housing, or Mary freaking Fallon over Interior.


And that's aside from the President Elects now admitted years of self dealing from his foundation that was required to shut down by the state of New York. Not to mention that he is now paying a million dollars in fines and 25 million in restitution over his fraudulent "University", and now his unwillingness to separate his business from his office. Plus of course his own sexual assaults and rape. And Trump's victims include children.

You see, there's not a moral equivalency between being married to a man who committed to sexual assault and being a man who has committed sexual assault and rape. We don't lock up wives of men who are criminals. I don't see the right going after Melania certainly and she has said far worse publicly about Trump's victims than Hillary ever did.

Give it six months, it's going to be damn hard to find an admitted Trump voter. He's already projected to lose the popular vote by 2.5 million votes, the polls weren't really that wrong except in certainly swing states, and some people are finding irregularities in those states electronic voting machines in certain areas. I hope we haven't been hacked. Or hacked more than Russia already did to elect this orange disaster.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 09:05:21 am
Now Trump has nominated Nikki Haley as Ambassador to the UN.

She is the current governor of a small and mostly rural state. Before entering politics she worked for her mother's clothing shop and has a bachelors degree from Clemson in Accounting.

She has exactly zero education or experience in International Relations or Diplomacy and is now going to be one of our most important diplomats. Nothing could go wrong there.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 09:53:08 am
We don't lock up wives of men who are criminals.

Sometime we do. Abetting criminals is also a crime.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 09:55:45 am
I'm confused. I can't say I dislike the governor of SC in any way, I'm just really confused. Why would she be a candidate for UN Ambassador?

Here is her resume:

- BS in accounting
- Book keeper for her mom's clothing store
- Accountant for a waste management company
- Controller and then CEO of Exotica International, mom's clothing store. Described as "a major clothing retailer in the Midlands of South Carolina." Annual rev $1.8mil.
- 2004 - 2010 SC State House of Representatives
- 2010 - 2016, governor of SC

Accomplishments:
- Took down Confederate Flag after a white supremacist murdered black church-goers
- Voter ID law
- Refused to sign a "bathroom bill"

Positions on international issues:
- none known

Political expirience outside of SC:
- None

Diplomatic experience:
- None


Here is a list of previous US Ambassadors to the UN:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Ambassador_to_the_United_Nations#List_of_Ambassadors

Samantha Jane Power - international journalist, taught human rights and international relations at Harvard, later taught Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard, adviser to Senator Obama, presidential director of human rights to the UN...

Rosemary DiCarlo - US ambassador to Russia, Norway, career foreign services member...

Susan Rice - Brookings Institute fellow for international diplomacy, assistant secretary of state for African Affairs, National Security Council...

Zalmay Khalilzad - Counselor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, president of an international business consulting firm, adviser to GW Bush, US Ambassador to Afghanistan, US Ambassador to Iraq...

Alejandro Daniel Wolff - US Ambasador to Chili, deputy US representative to the UN, Deputy of Policy Planning for Ronald Regan, Office of Soviet Affairs, Under Secretary for Political Affairs, Assistant Secretary of State for Albright and Powell, US Foreign service in Algeria, Morocco, Chile, Cypris, EU, and France...


DO YOU SEE A TREND HERE?   Maybe, it is seen as a very important job. Like, world peace life and death, world influencing type of stuff. Maybe someone with diplomatic experience should be considered?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 09:55:56 am
Now Trump has nominated Nikki Haley as Ambassador to the UN.

She is the current governor of a small and mostly rural state. Before entering politics she worked for her mother's clothing shop and has a bachelors degree from Clemson in Accounting.

She has exactly zero education or experience in International Relations or Diplomacy and is now going to be one of our most important diplomats. Nothing could go wrong there.

What qualifications did her predecessor have that made her such a blazing success? Or does being an author and academic better suite one to be a diplomat? Come on. More of this sky is falling BS. You know, eventually something is going to be a real problem, and I won't believe you. You can only cry wolf so many times.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 23, 2016, 10:20:25 am
Perhaps they didn't want a White Nationalist as the top advisor to the President. Nor a science denying racist as AG that wants to evict all 11 million illegals from this country and wants to end LEGAL immigration. Or not have as the top person over domestic policy transition a man employed by a designated anti-gay hate group. Or someone over environmental policy that thinks that more greenhouse gasses are good. Or a often confused doctor with zero qualifications over housing, or Mary freaking Fallon over Interior.


And that's aside from the President Elects now admitted years of self dealing from his foundation that was required to shut down by the state of New York. Not to mention that he is now paying a million dollars in fines and 25 million in restitution over his fraudulent "University", and now his unwillingness to separate his business from his office. Plus of course his own sexual assaults and rape. And Trump's victims include children.

You see, there's not a moral equivalency between being married to a man who committed to sexual assault and being a man who has committed sexual assault and rape. We don't lock up wives of men who are criminals. I don't see the right going after Melania certainly and she has said far worse publicly about Trump's victims than Hillary ever did.

Give it six months, it's going to be damn hard to find an admitted Trump voter. He's already projected to lose the popular vote by 2.5 million votes, the polls weren't really that wrong except in certainly swing states, and some people are finding irregularities in those states electronic voting machines in certain areas. I hope we haven't been hacked. Or hacked more than Russia already did to elect this orange disaster.

We get it swake, you have a sad because Trump got elected.  Deal with it.  Life is a whole lot bigger than Donald Trump and who the POTUS is.  Brown shirts aren’t going to go house to house rounding up brown people, mooslims, Jews, and teh gheys.  Do you remember the biggest fear of redneck ‘Merca with Obama in the WH was his minions going house to house rounding up firearms and ammo?  Didn’t happen.  

I think we can agree both candidates had a ton of character flaws.  Trying to claim one is less flawed than the other is a fool’s errand.

Quit blaming white racist supporters for Trump being in office and go apeshit on your party which tilted the playing field in Hillary’s favor for nomination because it was “her turn”.  I honestly cannot say if Bernie could have beaten Trump or not.  Young, handsome, and dynamic was the successful formula which lead to Democrat control of the White House from ’61 to ’63, ’93 to 2001, and 2009 to 2017.  Don’t tell me there’s not someone in the wings who fits that description in the Democratic party.

Back to the implications of a Trump presidency as the thread title states:

It does appear Trump is softening his rhetoric from the campaign.  For starters, I’m encouraged he doesn’t intend to run a circle-jerk investigation of the Clintons.  This along with some other comments which are coming out gives me hope he will be a moderate.  After all, he was a New York liberal before he was a conservative.

His cabinet selections and other appointments do seem a bit odd.  If I were going to offer Ben Carson any job in my administration, it would be more in line with his expertise.  Oh I dunno, maybe Surgeon General since he does have a degree in medicine and practiced medicine.  I do agree with swake’s take on Nikki Haley being a puzzling pick as our UN ambassador.  Perhaps this is all a gambit on not wanting “lifers” with the inside track on jobs but rather people who might approach that job with a willingness to be flexible.  Or perhaps there is something he sees in each individual which makes them ideal for a job that we don’t.  It’s not like evaluating skills and delegating responsibility to the right people is something new to him.  He has run a rather large business empire for 40+ years so I would give him credit for having some idea on how to staff up.

My personal hope is we will look back and find he ended up being pretty middle of the road.  I’m at least willing to wait and see how his policy and staffing decisions play out.  He’s been elected, we really don’t have much more choice than that, do we?  I don’t care to walk around all balled up for the next four years because my guy lost.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 10:27:03 am
What qualifications did her predecessor have that made her such a blazing success? Or does being an author and academic better suite one to be a diplomat? Come on. More of this sky is falling BS. You know, eventually something is going to be a real problem, and I won't believe you. You can only cry wolf so many times.

Samantha Jane Power, UN Ambassador

- Born in London, Raised in Ireland, immigrated to the US and lived in Pittsburgh and Atlanta before attending Yale,, going overseas, attending Harvard, etc.
- BA from Yale in history
- JD from Harvard Law
- international journalist, very well traveled
- Published author and Pulitzer prize winner on issues of human rights and foreign affairs
- Founding Executive Director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at the Harvard Kennedy School
- Anna Lindh Professor of Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard University
- Adviser on international affairs to US Senator Obama
- Presidential director of human rights to the UN


That seems like a pretty good resume to be a UN ambassador, no?  I'm not saying this SC woman will be a poor job, just a bizzaro pick. It just seems you would want someone with some experience, interest, or idea of what they are getting into. I hope she does really well, and I don't see a serious concern or flags on her personally, just a very strange appointment.  Like appointing me to the Supreme Court or Patric to head the Department of Energy.

Of course, Carson to HUD makes no sense either. The guy has as much knowledge on urban development as I do on brain surgery.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 10:29:06 am
Sometime we do. Abetting criminals is also a crime.

Ken Starr spent years and many millions of dollars to investigate all those claims against Bill and found nothing he could even charge Bill with, much less Hillary. All he found was the Bill lied on a deposition in a civil case. So there's nothing there to abet.

Trump paid off Ivana in their divorce settlement to kill the rape allegation she made under oath in her deposition and then had the records sealed. Trump said on tape he liked to go into the dressing rooms of his parents and check out the hot naked girls. Five girls from Miss Teen USA verified that he had done that to them, and some of them were naked and as young s 15.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 10:36:40 am
We get it swake, you have a sad because Trump got elected.  Deal with it.  Life is a whole lot bigger than Donald Trump and who the POTUS is.  Brown shirts aren’t going to go house to house rounding up brown people, mooslims, Jews, and teh gheys.  Do you remember the biggest fear of redneck ‘Merca with Obama in the WH was his minions going house to house rounding up firearms and ammo?  Didn’t happen.  

I think we can agree both candidates had a ton of character flaws.  Trying to claim one is less flawed than the other is a fool’s errand.

Quit blaming white racist supporters for Trump being in office and go apeshit on your party which tilted the playing field in Hillary’s favor for nomination because it was “her turn”.  I honestly cannot say if Bernie could have beaten Trump or not.  Young, handsome, and dynamic was the successful formula which lead to Democrat control of the White House from ’61 to ’63, ’93 to 2001, and 2009 to 2017.  Don’t tell me there’s not someone in the wings who fits that description in the Democratic party.

Back to the implications of a Trump presidency as the thread title states:

It does appear Trump is softening his rhetoric from the campaign.  For starters, I’m encouraged he doesn’t intend to run a circle-jerk investigation of the Clintons.  This along with some other comments which are coming out gives me hope he will be a moderate.  After all, he was a New York liberal before he was a conservative.

His cabinet selections and other appointments do seem a bit odd.  If I were going to offer Ben Carson any job in my administration, it would be more in line with his expertise.  Oh I dunno, maybe Surgeon General since he does have a degree in medicine and practiced medicine.  I do agree with swake’s take on Nikki Haley being a puzzling pick as our UN ambassador.  Perhaps this is all a gambit on not wanting “lifers” with the inside track on jobs but rather people who might approach that job with a willingness to be flexible.  Or perhaps there is something he sees in each individual which makes them ideal for a job that we don’t.  It’s not like evaluating skills and delegating responsibility to the right people is something new to him.  He has run a rather large business empire for 40+ years so I would give him credit for having some idea on how to staff up.

My personal hope is we will look back and find he ended up being pretty middle of the road.  I’m at least willing to wait and see how his policy and staffing decisions play out.  He’s been elected, we really don’t have much more choice than that, do we?  I don’t care to walk around all balled up for the next four years because my guy lost.

I'm not huge on Hillary and I'm no Berniebot. The idea that the primaries were rigged for Clinton is largely crap, most of the emails that were leaked were sent out after the ugly Nevada primary and you can't blame party officials for not liking a candidate that wasn't even a Democrat a month before he declared and them spent months  trashing the party he just joined so he could run. Bernie is a jerk and a demagogue. Much like Trump minus the bigoty and White Nationalism.

I wanted Warren to run and I think she would have won. I think she will run in four years.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 10:39:58 am
Ken Starr spent years and many millions of dollars to investigate all those claims against Bill and found nothing he could even charge Bill with, much less Hillary. All he found was the Bill lied on a deposition in a civil case. So there's nothing there to abet.

Trump paid off Ivana in their divorce settlement to kill the rape allegation she made under oath in her deposition and then had the records sealed. Trump said on tape he liked to go into the dressing rooms of his parents and check out the hot naked girls. Five girls from Miss Teen USA verified that he had done that to them, and some of them were naked and as young s 15.

Yet he's not in jail. Are you going to spend just as much time and money howling at the moon. Or are prosecutors just dumber than you?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 10:40:39 am
Samantha Jane Power, UN Ambassador

- Born in London, Raised in Ireland, immigrated to the US and lived in Pittsburgh and Atlanta before attending Yale,, going overseas, attending Harvard, etc.
- BA from Yale in history
- JD from Harvard Law
- international journalist, very well traveled
- Published author and Pulitzer prize winner on issues of human rights and foreign affairs
- Founding Executive Director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at the Harvard Kennedy School
- Anna Lindh Professor of Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy at Harvard University
- Adviser on international affairs to US Senator Obama
- Presidential director of human rights to the UN


That seems like a pretty good resume to be a UN ambassador, no?  I'm not saying this SC woman will be a poor job, just a bizzaro pick. It just seems you would want someone with some experience, interest, or idea of what they are getting into. I hope she does really well, and I don't see a serious concern or flags on her personally, just a very strange appointment.  Like appointing me to the Supreme Court or Patric to head the Department of Energy.

Of course, Carson to HUD makes no sense either. The guy has as much knowledge on urban development as I do on brain surgery.



I have nothing against Haley, I don't agree with her much, but that's ok. I think she would have been a solid appointment to a position that she was qualified for, something that she dealt with as Governor. Ambassador to the UN just makes no sense. Like Conan said, Carson would probably be a decent Surgeon General, though I do think he's a bit of a loon, but as the head of HUD he makes no sense. He doesn't even have much leadership experience.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 10:43:20 am
Yet he's not in jail. Are you going to spend just as much time and money howling at the moon. Or are prosecutes just dumber than you?

Give it time, he's never been under the microscope that the Clintons have been for decades. All these allegations just came out and Allred and her daughter are on retainer for many of them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 10:56:38 am
Do you remember the biggest fear of redneck ‘Merca with Obama in the WH was his minions going house to house rounding up firearms and ammo?  Didn’t happen.  

But Obama never said he was going to take anyone's guns away, never appointed anyone with a legacy of trying to take someones guns away, and never took any steps in an attempt to take anyone's guns away.

The Trump campaign has said it wants to go after "the others" (be them Muslims, immigrants, gays, etc.) in various fashions and has appointed people who have a history of agreeing with and actually doing so. It isn't a baseless fear. It is probably an exaggerated fear - but, for example, both Pence and the newly appointed AG have called for a Constitutional Amendment to roll back gay rights, and they are now in positions of great power.  Will they get their Amendment, no. Not with 66% of Americans favoring gay rights, but they certainly are no friend to LGBTQ issues.

If Obama would said he wants to take your guns and gone on to appoint people who had previously pushed for repeal of the 2nd Amendment, THEN we would have a similar situation and I would understand people freaking out for 8 years. There is a difference between conspiracy theorist consistently saying someone is going to do something hostile, and being able to point to things politicians said and appear to be taking steps to put into action.


The fear was Trump would follow through on much or some of his rhetoric. That he would appoint loyalists, people who buy into the most extreme rhetoric, or people that make no sense for the given position. That he wouldn't live up to promises of a blind trust, that nepotism and cronyism would pervade. And so far, that seems to be exactly what's he is doing.

Hell, just yesterday Trump said "there is no such thing as a conflict of interest for the President of the United States," the day after telling foreign officials they should stay at Trump Hotels when wanting to business with his administration.  I'm really trying to move on, there hasn't been any true disasters yet and I am confident that he can't accomplish his most damaging ambitions, but the warning signs keep dragging me back in.  THIS IS NOT NORMAL.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on November 23, 2016, 11:14:25 am
Perhaps they didn't want a White Nationalist as the top advisor to the President. Nor a science denying racist as AG that wants to evict all 11 million illegals from this country and wants to end LEGAL immigration. Or not have as the top person over domestic policy transition a man employed by a designated anti-gay hate group. Or someone over environmental policy that thinks that more greenhouse gasses are good. Or a often confused doctor with zero qualifications over housing, or Mary freaking Fallon over Interior. ......

Give it six months, it's going to be damn hard to find an admitted Trump voter. He's already projected to lose the popular vote by 2.5 million votes, the polls weren't really that wrong except in certainly swing states, and some people are finding irregularities in those states electronic voting machines in certain areas. I hope we haven't been hacked. Or hacked more than Russia already did to elect this orange disaster.

In a kleptocracy, the minions can be expected to be wildly unqualified, incompetent, and often directly at odds with their positions. But they have one essential quality, and that's loyalty to the strongman who gave them authority and power. It's a quid pro quo. They look the other way as he fleeces the country and they get to do the same provided they never contradict or challenge him.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on November 23, 2016, 11:17:51 am
I expect that:
Net Neutrality will die
The new overtime rules will be stopped
Pot legalization is done with
Transgendered Rights are done
Gay Rights rules against discrimination are done
We will have trade wars with China and Mexico at least hurting the economy and driving up illegal immigration
We will have some level of mass deportations
The Dream Act is done
Increasing the minimum wage will not happen
Unions will further be diminished by attacks by Federal rules and laws
We will have mass surveillance of Muslims and groups like BLM
Civil rights will be badly eroded by the Justice Department, hate crimes laws will be overturned
Taxes on the wealthy and corporations will go way down
Income inequality will skyrocket
The deficit will grow at an ugly rate
Regulation of banks and Wall Street will be greatly curtailed
The Federal Reserve's independence will end
Millions of people will lose healthcare
healthcare costs will skyrocket
We will be in recession within 18 months
China's claim the South China Sea will be allowed
Global Warming will accelerate to an unstoppable rate of heating


It's very possible:
Roe v Wade will be overturned
Gay Marriage will be overturned
Medicaid will be ended and replaced by state block grants
"Investment" accounts for Social Security will be allowed
NATO may die
Russia may invade the Baltic States and Ukraine without consequences
Legal Immigration will be massively restrained
Native Rights acts will be overturned including casinos and possibly sovereignty
We will enter a depression within 24 months
Trump will be impeached for financial self dealing
Trump will be impeached for sexual crimes


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 11:47:13 am
No. The groups always assimilate. The larger mass pulls them in and we change them, as they change us marginally in their direction. It is inevitable.
I thought my point was clear - this isn't anything new. It is ugly, hateful, and unnecessary. If anything, it is counter productive and encourages the group being persecuted to avoid natives, and thus delay assimilation.

Evidently you weren't clear enough.

Quote
This isn't a real issue. Assimilation is as old as America. There is no reason to believe a 300 year trend will suddenly stop.  People for 300 years have argued that we have to stop the immigrants because they will never assimilate. They were all wrong. You're wrong too.  So don't pretend racism and bigotry is a good thing because it helps bind America together.

You have misread me too.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 11:52:01 am
I wanted Warren to run and I think she would have won. I think she will run in four years.

I hope the Democratic Party can do better than Warren.

Mr. tell your constituents one thing and vote another Jim Jones would be no better.  My father used to attend Jones' local meetings.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 12:20:31 pm
Evidently you weren't clear enough.

You have misread me too.

I wasn't trying to accuse you specifically, it was a rhetorical device for anyone who may read the statement.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 12:35:46 pm
Additionally, even in large countries that are multi-lingual, a dominant language takes hold. See, for example, all of Europe - where over time the nations merged on a common language in spite of most countries having several native tongues.  Also in China, India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Russia and all over Africa. Basically, anywhere people are a common language eventually dominates. Mono-linguistics is a huge weakness for Americans, not a strength. According to most scientific analysis, we are actually held back in many regards because of it (speaking more than one language increases your cognitive abilities such as problem-solving, creativity, and memory (http://www.gli.northwestern.edu/learn-languages/benefits-of-multilingualism/)).

I don't believe I wrote anywhere that the US should prohibit the learning or speaking of something other than English.  I certainly don't regret learning a bit of German in 5th grade, some Spanish in Jr High, and 4 years of German in High School.  

If you believe we should have more than one "official" language, which ones would you pick?  The obvious addition now in our part of the US would be Spanish but it hasn't always been that way across the USA.  


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 12:36:59 pm
I wasn't trying to accuse you specifically, it was a rhetorical device for anyone who may read the statement.

OK.  I do want to commend you for spelling "you're" correctly though.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on November 23, 2016, 12:40:45 pm
Shoot, I'm just hoping travel between the new districts will be allowed.

If not, I'm pleased to know that most likely, with Oklahoma's voting record, we won't be part of district 12 or 13.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 12:46:03 pm
Shoot, I'm just hoping travel between the new districts will be allowed.

If not, I'm pleased to know that most likely, with Oklahoma's voting record, we won't be part of district 12 or 13.

Please save me some time.  I need to go to the airport.  Which districts are 12 and 13?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 12:47:02 pm
I expect that:
Net Neutrality will die
The new overtime rules will be stopped
Pot legalization is done with
Transgendered Rights are done
Gay Rights rules against discrimination are done
We will have trade wars with China and Mexico at least hurting the economy and driving up illegal immigration
We will have some level of mass deportations
The Dream Act is done
Increasing the minimum wage will not happen
Unions will further be diminished by attacks by Federal rules and laws
We will have mass surveillance of Muslims and groups like BLM
Civil rights will be badly eroded by the Justice Department, hate crimes laws will be overturned
Taxes on the wealthy and corporations will go way down
Income inequality will skyrocket
The deficit will grow at an ugly rate
Regulation of banks and Wall Street will be greatly curtailed
The Federal Reserve's independence will end
Millions of people will lose healthcare
healthcare costs will skyrocket
We will be in recession within 18 months
China's claim the South China Sea will be allowed
Global Warming will accelerate to an unstoppable rate of heating


It's very possible:
Roe v Wade will be overturned
Gay Marriage will be overturned
Medicaid will be ended and replaced by state block grants
"Investment" accounts for Social Security will be allowed
NATO may die
Russia may invade the Baltic States and Ukraine without consequences
Legal Immigration will be massively restrained
Native Rights acts will be overturned including casinos and possibly sovereignty
We will enter a depression within 24 months
Trump will be impeached for financial self dealing
Trump will be impeached for sexual crimes


Is your real name Chicken Little?
 
 ;D





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 12:53:17 pm
But Obama never said he was going to take anyone's guns away, never appointed anyone with a legacy of trying to take someones guns away, and never took any steps in an attempt to take anyone's guns away.

I believe Obama and many others would like to take away assault looking weapons but realize it isn't going to happen.  How far that may extend to hand guns and regular hunting rifles I don't know.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on November 23, 2016, 01:20:44 pm
I believe Obama and many others would like to take away assault looking weapons but realize it isn't going to happen.  How far that may extend to hand guns and regular hunting rifles I don't know.

I don't understand the focus on assault rifles. Sure, several high profile crimes involve them but so many more lives have been lost due to handguns, yet no one has proposed limits on them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 01:32:37 pm
I don't understand the focus on assault rifles. Sure, several high profile crimes involve them but so many more lives have been lost due to handguns, yet no one has proposed limits on them.

D.C.?

Ironical point. We are completely at liberty to "register" gun owners for the mere ownership of something protected under the constitution. However registering non-citizens for anything other than their nationality is some sort of constitutional crisis.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 23, 2016, 02:41:47 pm
Deleted...  

Short version, almost all of Trump's team want more power to big government, care little for civil liberties, are pro-fake news, advocate conspiracy theories, and are long term power brokers elevated to new heights.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on November 23, 2016, 02:56:44 pm
Deleted...  

Short version, almost all of Trump's team want more power to big government, care little for civil liberties, are pro-fake news, advocate conspiracy theories, and are long term power brokers elevated to new heights.

Make the swamp great again.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 23, 2016, 03:04:32 pm
I expect that:
Net Neutrality will die- I don’t know enough about this to know if that is good or bad or what it truly is.
The new overtime rules will be stopped-
Pot legalization is done with- Maybe as a national initiative, which needs to happen but here we go again with state’s rights (which is how gay marriage was being done prior to the SCOTUS ruling)
Transgendered Rights are done- Ruled as equal protection with a 5/4 court.  I don’t see this changing.
Gay Rights rules against discrimination are done- Again, equal protection, not going to happen
We will have trade wars with China and Mexico at least hurting the economy and driving up illegal immigration- quite possibly depending on how misguided his trade ideas are or what sort of manufacturing he is thinking we should bring back on shore.
We will have some level of mass deportations- This is bluff and bluster, these are undocumented aliens, we don’t know where many of them are at any given time.  I suspect if he is re-elected to a second term, he will end up doing some sort of Reagan amnesty during second term.  I seriously doubt he will be any more aggressive than Obama on deportations, especially without the cooperation of larger metro areas.
The Dream Act is done Possibly for now
Increasing the minimum wage will not happen Will never happen under any GOP admin, but can be done state by state.  Do note that Obama failed to do this with a Congress in his favor from 2009 to 2011.
Unions will further be diminished by attacks by Federal rules and laws   This does not particularly bother me.  Unions had their place and time, their legacy cushy pension funds brought many companies to the brink of extinction.  Strong unions like UAW aren’t going anywhere though. 
We will have mass surveillance of Muslims and groups like BLM I don’t buy this any more than what the NSA, CIA, FBI already do.  If they have reason to suspect someone is connected to terrorist cells they will watch them.  They don’t have near the manpower to spy on every Muslim in this country.
Civil rights will be badly eroded by the Justice Department, hate crimes laws will be overturned Will never happen.  No reason to.
Taxes on the wealthy and corporations will go way down Lower corporate taxes might result in companies bringing some operations back on-shore and repatriating money into the U.S. economy.  Simply the tax codes which are the true cause of such low effective tax rates on the uber wealthy.
Income inequality will skyrocket Income inequality didn’t improve under Obama. His Council of Economic Advisors makes such claims but they revolve around tax breaks, in increase in the EIC, and people getting subsidies for health insurance via the ACA.  That’s not improving their wage, it’s more subsidy.  I’m optimistic Trump might have economic policies which sees the actual wages of the middle class rise, not a complicated scheme of subsidies.
The deficit will grow at an ugly rate This remains to be seen.  Trump talked good game on attacking debt and the deficit.  Let’s see what he does the first two years with a fairly stable economy.
Regulation of banks and Wall Street will be greatly curtailed Let’s hope not, but do keep in mind every administration is cozy with Wall Street and has been for decades.
The Federal Reserve's independence will end I really don’t see this happening, some of your notions point almost to fascism which is as overused as racism these days. Obama was supposedly a fascist to many.
Millions of people will lose healthcare Millions may be put into some sort of state plan depending on how many insurers can afford to stay on the exchanges in the coming years.  This has less to do with Trump than the cold hard economic realities which too many people ignored in the run up to Obamacare.
healthcare costs will skyrocket They already have thanks to the ACA.  This is a fact.
We will be in recession within 18 months There’s a good chance of this simply due to the cycle, regardless of who would have won
China's claim the South China Sea will be allowed Sorry haven’t really followed this issue
Global Warming will accelerate to an unstoppable rate of heating That makes the assumption that mankind can have absolute control over climate change, it cannot.


It's very possible:
Roe v Wade will be overturned It has survived intact for 43 years and will continue to.  I’ve not seen another case brought to SCOTUS which even remotely had a chance of seeing it overturned.  Not even with the 5/4 conservative-leaning split most recently.
Gay Marriage will be overturned I don’t see this, it’s been ruled Constitutional with that same 5/4 court
Medicaid will be ended and replaced by state block grants There may well be a better way to fund and administer Medicaid, I’m not certain this is a bad thing for states to manage
"Investment" accounts for Social Security will be allowed Pipe dream of the neocons, won’t happen
NATO may die doubtful
Russia may invade the Baltic States and Ukraine without consequences Entirely possible though Putin is not easily predictable
Legal Immigration will be massively restrained I highly doubt this.  Our economy depends on a certain level of immigration.  The channels might become a bit slower for immigrants from certain nations but I don’t see there ever being an outright ban on Muslim immigrants.
Native Rights acts will be overturned including casinos and possibly sovereignty Not going to happen without causing serious unrest and there’s no reason to do this at all
We will enter a depression within 24 months See comment above about recession
Trump will be impeached for financial self dealing I would hope he’s smarter than this
Trump will be impeached for sexual crimes Perhaps we would finally figure out if there’s any veracity to claims against him, we didn’t seem to care when it came to a previous POTUS


Some of your notions ignore checks and balances and the rest seem to indicate you believe Trump could act as a dictator or he would rule through blind rage for all minorities.  I believe you are far more worried than necessary over Trump’s policies.

Anything is certainly possible but let’s keep in mind there is a Congress, Supreme Court, and 300,000,000+ citizens to answer to.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:19:27 pm
Some of your notions ignore checks and balances and the rest seem to indicate you believe Trump could act as a dictator or he would rule through blind rage for all minorities.  I believe you are far more worried than necessary over Trump’s policies.

Anything is certainly possible but let’s keep in mind there is a Congress, Supreme Court, and 300,000,000+ citizens to answer to.

Racist.

Can't you see the atmosphere collapsing around you?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:38:48 pm
I expect that:
Net Neutrality will die
The new overtime rules will be stopped
Pot legalization is done with
Transgendered Rights are done
Gay Rights rules against discrimination are done
We will have trade wars with China and Mexico at least hurting the economy and driving up illegal immigration
We will have some level of mass deportations
The Dream Act is done
Increasing the minimum wage will not happen
Unions will further be diminished by attacks by Federal rules and laws
We will have mass surveillance of Muslims and groups like BLM
Civil rights will be badly eroded by the Justice Department, hate crimes laws will be overturned
Taxes on the wealthy and corporations will go way down
Income inequality will skyrocket
The deficit will grow at an ugly rate
Regulation of banks and Wall Street will be greatly curtailed
The Federal Reserve's independence will end
Millions of people will lose healthcare
healthcare costs will skyrocket
We will be in recession within 18 months
China's claim the South China Sea will be allowed
Global Warming will accelerate to an unstoppable rate of heating


It's very possible:
Roe v Wade will be overturned
Gay Marriage will be overturned
Medicaid will be ended and replaced by state block grants
"Investment" accounts for Social Security will be allowed
NATO may die
Russia may invade the Baltic States and Ukraine without consequences
Legal Immigration will be massively restrained
Native Rights acts will be overturned including casinos and possibly sovereignty
We will enter a depression within 24 months
Trump will be impeached for financial self dealing
Trump will be impeached for sexual crimes


There was an injunction yesterday on the new overtime law.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:39:45 pm
Race relations weren’t exactly stellar under Obama.  As of a month ago 54% of Americans believed that.  The media does not help with it’s 24/7 fascination with racial discord but Obama missed key opportunities to bring people together after Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, Freddy Gray, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/politics/obama-race-relations-poll/

I do note that whites (57%) believe more than blacks (40% which I still find significant with a black president) that racial relations got worse under Obama.  That might explain why Trump energized a group of Americans who felt left behind the last eight years. 

Again people, let’s focus on our similarities instead of our differences.

That's because Obama didn't hide racism under the rug. He had an open discussion about it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:41:01 pm
What is the inference about the people who voted for the corrupt white heterosexual female who assisted in covering up multiple sexual assaults by a previous POTUS?

Is that actually factual?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:42:52 pm
Ken Starr spent years and many millions of dollars to investigate all those claims against Bill and found nothing he could even charge Bill with, much less Hillary. All he found was the Bill lied on a deposition in a civil case. So there's nothing there to abet.

Trump paid off Ivana in their divorce settlement to kill the rape allegation she made under oath in her deposition and then had the records sealed. Trump said on tape he liked to go into the dressing rooms of his parents and check out the hot naked girls. Five girls from Miss Teen USA verified that he had done that to them, and some of them were naked and as young s 15.

Then proceeds to cover up sexual assault while at Baylor.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:44:54 pm
I hope the Democratic Party can do better than Warren.

Mr. tell your constituents one thing and vote another Jim Jones would be no better.  My father used to attend Jones' local meetings.

Better than Warren? What do you mean by that? She's one hell of a politician in my book.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:47:43 pm
There was an injunction yesterday on the new overtime law.

Not a big deal. I applaud them in this case as a disbeliever in minimum wage laws actually helping people.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:49:03 pm
Not a big deal. I applaud them in this case as a disbeliever in minimum wage laws actually helping people.

Huge deal actually. I manage this daily, do you?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:49:11 pm
That's because Obama didn't hide racism under the rug. He had an open discussion about it.

Well...it was certainly an open discussion.

https://youtu.be/qYUrY2GtBfc


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:49:48 pm
Huge deal actually. I manage this daily, do you?

Most definitely. For a living my entire life.

It was a stupid rule, and caused more problems than it could have ever solved.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:51:19 pm
Most definitely. For a living my entire life.

It was a stupid rule, and caused more problems than it could have ever solved.

Salary gets abused and causes high turnover on the low end. That's a fact.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:51:46 pm
Better than Warren? What do you mean by that? She's one hell of a politician in my book.

To each their own. How many truly believe Warren would have fared any better than Clinton. Media would have been just as insulting to the people that voted for Trump in the end. I don't really see her pulling any more from the minority crowd.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:52:36 pm
Salary gets abused and causes high turnover on the low end. That's a fact.

How exactly is that the government's problem? Are you forcing people to work for you?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:53:29 pm
We've already implemented hourly for the managers that were salary in stores. It has way, way more positives than negatives. Happier employees, fair wage on an hourly average, more flexibility and less turnover.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:55:20 pm
How exactly is that the government's problem? Are you forcing people to work for you?

Because the government exist to protect the people, not your assumption on what might be more profitable on an Excel sheet in the short term. Government is a check on business and most of the time they get it right.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 03:56:37 pm
Because the government exist to protect the people, not your assumption on what might be more profitable on an Excel sheet in the short term. Government is a check on business and most of the time they get it right.

Protect them from low wages. Where exactly does it stipulate that again?

This is wrong on so many levels. Government is not a check on business.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 03:59:03 pm
To each their own. How many truly believe Warren would have fared any better than Clinton. Media would have been just as insulting to the people that voted for Trump in the end. I don't really see her pulling any more from the minority crowd.

I don't think you should avoid putting someone on a ballot because she's a blunt woman. Don't know who runs your house but blunt women are highly effective people. They get crap done, stick to the task and don't pander around like Trump types. Count me out on the good ole' boy network, I want effieceny.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 04:01:52 pm
Protect them from low wages. Where exactly does it stipulate that again?

This is wrong on so many levels. Government is not a check on business.

Absolutely is a check. Do you think regulations exist for fun?

New overtime law protects a business from making someone earning $455/week from working 70 hours. That's $6.50 per hour and it happens way, way more than you think.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 04:05:27 pm
I don't think you should avoid putting someone on a ballot because she's a blunt woman. Don't know who runs your house but blunt women are highly effective people. They get crap done, stick to the task and don't pander around like Trump types. Count me out on the good ole' boy network, I want effieceny.

And you think Warren fits that description?

More bluster than bluntness. Given your predisposition to labor laws, I can see how you are totally on board with Warren. When she writes a law to actually put teeth in the STOCK Act I'll believe she is truly for the little guy. Until then, she's just one more D.C. blowhard that will say whatever it is she thinks will help her get elected.

Like I said, to each their own.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 23, 2016, 04:08:03 pm
Absolutely is a check. Do you think regulations exist for fun?

New overtime law protects a business from making someone earning $455/week from working 70 hours. That's $6.50 per hour and it happens way, way more than you think.

I know, I had a position that would have been effected at one point in my life. I was a willing participant in the marketplace. The government is acting not as a check on business, but as a check on people that want to work. Stupid if you ask me. If I offer $40K/year for  CPA to work 80 hours a week and they take it, why is that a crime. They are medelling in a societal problem that isn't a problem. If a business (like you describe) has problems retaining talent, well that's on them. Why are they waiting for the government to do something. Pretty poor business practice if you ask me.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 04:16:58 pm
And you think Warren fits that description?

More bluster than bluntness. Given your predisposition to labor laws, I can see how you are totally on board with Warren. When she writes a law to actually put teeth in the STOCK Act I'll believe she is truly for the little guy. Until then, she's just one more D.C. blowhard that will say whatever it is she thinks will help her get elected.

Like I said, to each their own.

I'm still on salary, I'm just giving you an honest assement of the reality of it. Those little guys aren't necessarily me anymore but they are the ones scraping out mayo bins at 4am earning their dollar. You can disagree, I have peers that strongly disagree like you do.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 04:19:14 pm
I know, I had a position that would have been effected at one point in my life. I was a willing participant in the marketplace. The government is acting not as a check on business, but as a check on people that want to work. Stupid if you ask me. If I offer $40K/year for  CPA to work 80 hours a week and they take it, why is that a crime. They are medelling in a societal problem that isn't a problem. If a business (like you describe) has problems retaining talent, well that's on them. Why are they waiting for the government to do something. Pretty poor business practice if you ask me.

The issue is less the new CPA making $40K and more the assistant manager making $23K on salary. If someone wants to debate the low end should be more like $750/week then ok, but $455/week is manipulating folks.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on November 23, 2016, 04:56:43 pm
Hillary Clinton's margin in the popular vote against President-elect Donald Trump has surpassed 2 million, furthering the record for a candidate who lost in the Electoral College.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/23/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-2-million-popular-vote/94339510/


“The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy,” Trump tweeted after President Barack Obama’s reelection against Mitt Romney in 2012.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 07:04:17 pm
Better than Warren? What do you mean by that? She's one hell of a politician in my book.

One hell of a politician but not one I would like to have elected.

Edit:  I forgot to mention that we must have different "books".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 07:31:34 pm
We've already implemented hourly for the managers that were salary in stores. It has way, way more positives than negatives. Happier employees, fair wage on an hourly average, more flexibility and less turnover.

Are your managers still working the same abusive hours but just getting paid for them?  Do you pay your beginning hourly workers significantly more than minimum wage?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 07:36:40 pm
The issue is less the new CPA making $40K and more the assistant manager making $23K on salary. If someone wants to debate the low end should be more like $750/week then ok, but $455/week is manipulating folks.

If you feel so strongly about The $23K salary, why weren't "you" paying them a salary more commensurate with their contributions? 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 07:54:41 pm
Are your managers still working the same abusive hours but just getting paid for them?  Do you pay your beginning hourly workers significantly more than minimum wage?

They aren't working abusive hours but they are getting their fair shake after 40 hours and nobody has a chance of working on salary at $455/week like I had to. And that's a good thing.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 07:57:29 pm
If you feel so strongly about The $23K salary, why weren't "you" paying them a salary more commensurate with their contributions? 

Stop assuming that's what they were being paid, because it wasn't. It happens a lot in my industry though. But if that was the case, I'm middle management and could could overrode easily on salary compensation.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 07:58:35 pm
One hell of a politician but not one I would like to have elected.

Edit:  I forgot to mention that we must have different "books".

Then you read your book and I'll read mine.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 23, 2016, 08:00:59 pm
Here's what the white vote for Trump looked like.

(https://s17.postimg.org/6j89vymbz/IMG_0272.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 09:06:18 pm
Then you read your book and I'll read mine.

Fair enough.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 09:12:57 pm
They aren't working abusive hours but they are getting their fair shake after 40 hours and nobody has a chance of working on salary at $455/week like I had to. And that's a good thing.

Good for your formerly salaried workers.  I agree that salaried workers can be abused but that is a function of management and the need of the abused to have a job, not the government. 

How about your beginning hourly workers?  Do they make a living wage?  Your workers, not the industry average.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2016, 09:37:25 pm
Compare that map to the most economically productive areas in the United States .... Raleigh-Durham, NYC, Silicon Valley, San Francisco, Austin, Atlanta, Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Washington DC...

Strangely, for blue areas being famously overregulated job destroyers they sure do produce a lot of extremely high value, knowledge sector activity that drives the American economy.

*end my only political post ever on Tulsa Now* back to urban revitalization.

Eating food mostly produced in red areas.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 24, 2016, 11:08:08 am
I have nothing against Haley, I don't agree with her much, but that's ok. I think she would have been a solid appointment to a position that she was qualified for, something that she dealt with as Governor. Ambassador to the UN just makes no sense. Like Conan said, Carson would probably be a decent Surgeon General, though I do think he's a bit of a loon, but as the head of HUD he makes no sense. He doesn't even have much leadership experience.

So Nikki Haley isn't qualified to be UN Ambassador although she spent six years in the South Carolina House of Representatives and then as governor of the same state.

Let's look at the Ambassador to Japan, Caroline Kennedy. Never served in an elected position. Never. Not even as a city council woman. Also, didn't vote in quite a few elections between 1988 and 2008. Never voted for the vacancy that Hillary left to run for POTUS in 2008. Didn't vote in many NY State elections. So her qualifications were/are she's a lawyer, involved in education, and she's a Kennedy. Yep, she is soooooo uniquely qualified to be a diplomat.

http://www.biography.com/people/caroline-kennedy-204598#synopsis (http://www.biography.com/people/caroline-kennedy-204598#synopsis)

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28314182/ns/politics/t/kennedy-did-not-vote-many-elections/#.WDcaR_krKCg (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28314182/ns/politics/t/kennedy-did-not-vote-many-elections/#.WDcaR_krKCg)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/records-show-caroline-kennedy-failed-cast-vote-times-1988-article-1.355381 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/records-show-caroline-kennedy-failed-cast-vote-times-1988-article-1.355381)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 24, 2016, 11:47:52 am
Good for your formerly salaried workers.  I agree that salaried workers can be abused but that is a function of management and the need of the abused to have a job, not the government. 

How about your beginning hourly workers?  Do they make a living wage?  Your workers, not the industry average.

I'd say roughly 80% of my workers make a living wage by the hour for what the standard in Oklahoma is. The ones that don't are usually always high school or college students working part time for a little extra cash.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 24, 2016, 07:49:22 pm
I'd say roughly 80% of my workers make a living wage by the hour for what the standard in Oklahoma is. The ones that don't are usually always high school or college students working part time for a little extra cash.

Which is why minimum wage is viewed as entry level or part time pay, for those looking to make extra cash while going to school or as some extra income for a young family.

Based on the economics of it, could you maintain the same menu prices while, say, doubling your payroll costs or even raising them by 50%?

This is always asked in a hypothetical, but you literally are the only one on here qualified to speak to that.  TIA.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 24, 2016, 11:33:42 pm
Which is why minimum wage is viewed as entry level or part time pay, for those looking to make extra cash while going to school or as some extra income for a young family.

Based on the economics of it, could you maintain the same menu prices while, say, doubling your payroll costs or even raising them by 50%?

This is always asked in a hypothetical, but you literally are the only one on here qualified to speak to that.  TIA.
No, you have to increase prices with the labor cost but raising prices doesn't hurt the customer as much as low wages hurt the employee, customer service and the company due to turnover. I can have all of the personal opinions I want, but there is a very strong argument that raising wages helps everyone involved as a whole from a business perspective.

We've had to increase our prices this year for delivery to pay our drivers reimbursement (even the bike drivers who spend money on their bikes, even though that's our choice and not required) and raise prices on food because of rising labor cost. It's very, very tough to get quality workers these days unless you stay competitive on wages.

The blessing this year has been that food cost have come down which takes some of the heat off of the rising labor cost. When it comes to managing the cost for us you have to keep food cost and labor cost at around 50% to make a profit. Making a profit isn't only important for the company but it also helps keep our wages competitive because 25% of a store profit each period (every four weeks) goes back to the store management.

I fully understand the example early about the accountant at $40K, but the new regulations are helping us long term. We went from salary to hourly three months ago and our turnover has decreased drastically with management. In my particular industry, that pays dividends over time. I know the response will be that you don't need the government to tell you that but in food service it's all about instant gratification with profits which is often at the expense of the employee.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on November 24, 2016, 11:47:43 pm
Adding to this, the one thing I disagree with is over 40 hours being overtime. In my opinion it should be over 45 hours. And the salary minimum should be closer to $40-$42k instead of $46k.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 25, 2016, 01:09:01 am
Adding to this, the one thing I disagree with is over 40 hours being overtime. In my opinion it should be over 45 hours. And the salary minimum should be closer to $40-$42k instead of $46k.

Why do you pick 45 hours?



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on November 25, 2016, 08:31:25 pm
I'd say roughly 80% of my workers make a living wage by the hour for what the standard in Oklahoma is. The ones that don't are usually always high school or college students working part time for a little extra cash.

I would not expect part-timers to make a living wage due to the hours.  They could still be paid at a living wage rate per hour though.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on November 25, 2016, 11:19:37 pm
No, you have to increase prices with the labor cost but raising prices doesn't hurt the customer as much as low wages hurt the employee, customer service and the company due to turnover. I can have all of the personal opinions I want, but there is a very strong argument that raising wages helps everyone involved as a whole from a business perspective.

We've had to increase our prices this year for delivery to pay our drivers reimbursement (even the bike drivers who spend money on their bikes, even though that's our choice and not required) and raise prices on food because of rising labor cost. It's very, very tough to get quality workers these days unless you stay competitive on wages.

The blessing this year has been that food cost have come down which takes some of the heat off of the rising labor cost. When it comes to managing the cost for us you have to keep food cost and labor cost at around 50% to make a profit. Making a profit isn't only important for the company but it also helps keep our wages competitive because 25% of a store profit each period (every four weeks) goes back to the store management.

I fully understand the example early about the accountant at $40K, but the new regulations are helping us long term. We went from salary to hourly three months ago and our turnover has decreased drastically with management. In my particular industry, that pays dividends over time. I know the response will be that you don't need the government to tell you that but in food service it's all about instant gratification with profits which is often at the expense of the employee.


Thank you, I appreciate your perspective on this and an honest reply.

Increasing minimum wage in what are considered traditional entry level jobs into the workforce is a rickety economic see saw.  I’m well aware there are families where both spouses might work two minimum wage jobs apiece to keep afloat.  While the emotional part of me wants those people to be able to feed their children and keep a solid roof overhead, sudden changes in wage conditions can end up costing those folks their job if their employer is unprepared for a sudden uptick in wages, assuming they work for smaller enterprises rather than a national chain.

Granted, a Royale With Cheese going from $3.50 to $4.50 overnight doesn’t alter the rest of the economy like it does with commodities such as gasoline going up $1.00 suddenly since most people can get by without a cheeseburger or there are other options.  When gas goes up significantly, the consumer economy in general feels the pinch. 

When all wages are set to rise by government edict, it would stand to reason that consumer prices would go up in the end and really no one has better purchasing power than they had before.  Someone might net $10 per hour instead of $5 but if all that person’s day-to-day living costs have doubled, they are no better off than before.  Perhaps there is an economic theorem where someone’s cost of living does not go up by a commensurate amount and I’m simply out of the loop and talking out my a$$.

When gas was near $4.00 a gallon in July of 2008 that certainly did not help the overall economy since people living paycheck to paycheck essentially had to choose between new shoes or a pair of jeans or filling up their car to be able to make it to work for the next few days or a week in order to still buy meager groceries.

For someone with means, if their local deli has to raise the price of a pastrami sandwich by $1.00 or $1.50 to cover higher labor costs it’s no big deal and probably goes unnoticed.  To the family of six living near the poverty line which considers the occasional family meal at a national chain fast food restaurant as a nice respite from boxed and canned food, I get where it is a struggle.

There is good reason for government to make sure workers are not exploited like they were during the industrial revolution, no doubt.  But there is a point where the government can do more harm to industry and consumer economics by setting somewhat arbitrary wage structures without concern as to what happens to employers wage costs and how those costs are passed down throughout the economy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on November 28, 2016, 08:27:31 am
The existence of the welfare state makes these adjustments to minimum wage unnecessary. It would be one thing if not receiving a "fair" wage truly meant be hungry and suffering. But we have programs in place for that sort of thing. You really want to see wages go up, get rid of the net.

Regarding turnover/employer retention, don't count on the government to do your companies work for you. Execs make decisions every day regarding how much turnover they are willing to bear. Questions regarding how fast a replacement can be found/trained play into that decision. The reason these big time execs and athletes can pull it in is because they have convinced someone that they are extraordinarily difficult to replace.

Like where I work, we have a lot of admin types. They all start at around $10/hour. Non-managers rarely make over $20/hour. We know some will leave especially when COP is across the street (not so much lately). We try to hire people that are tied to the community because we offer an extremely convenient work atmosphere. It's a cushy job that just doesn't pay a ton. Turnover is pretty low. Our turnover rate hovers around 2% on average (1 defection for every 50 employees a month). In fairness, some of those don't leave on their own accord.  ;D There are a zillion things a company can do to attract/retain talent. Relying on the government to boost the pay for your lowest paid workers should not help one iota.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: davideinstein on December 01, 2016, 04:52:19 pm
Why do you pick 45 hours?



From my experience that's right about the point where employees are overworked and less productive.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 01, 2016, 04:57:53 pm
Eating food mostly produced in red areas.


That is similar to what cotton and tobacco production were 150 years ago plus a lot of agriculture...got a Civil War out of that economic discontinuity.  Wildly differing zones of thought/influence.  Hope we don't there again.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 09, 2016, 09:45:56 pm
Make Russia Great Again

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on December 10, 2016, 10:44:37 am
According to several accounts Mary Fallin was passed over for Interior Secretary after an “awkward” interview.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one:

“Well, I did some interior design work before I was Lieutenant Governor, but I found it just really wasn’t for me.”

If I have heard correctly, it sounds as if Trump might be interested in selling off some public lands.  Or at least at one time he did.  He’s used to being on all sides of an issue so I’m sure he will before he won’t before he does.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 10, 2016, 11:36:00 am
According to several accounts Mary Fallin was passed over for Interior Secretary after an “awkward” interview.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one:

“Well, I did some interior design work before I was Lieutenant Governor, but I found it just really wasn’t for me.”

If I have heard correctly, it sounds as if Trump might be interested in selling off some public lands.  Or at least at one time he did.  He’s used to being on all sides of an issue so I’m sure he will before he won’t before he does.


Trump expected to pick oil drilling advocate, climate-change skeptic to run Interior Department
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-trump-expected-to-pick-oil-drilling-advocate-to-run-interior-department-source-2016-12

Basically someone to open up tribal land and national parks to oil drilling.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 11, 2016, 10:30:13 am
While we can still laugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-w5wbu7GBE


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on December 12, 2016, 12:10:01 pm

Trump expected to pick oil drilling advocate, climate-change skeptic to run Interior Department
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-trump-expected-to-pick-oil-drilling-advocate-to-run-interior-department-source-2016-12

Basically someone to open up tribal land and national parks to oil drilling.

"Earthquake insurance!  Get your red hot earthquake insurance!"


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 12, 2016, 12:38:58 pm
Does anyone know why Trump is so mad about the statements from the FBI, CIA, State Department, Homeland Security, Army Intelligence and others that it appears Russia hacked US political parties in an attempt to influence the election?  It appears all the evidence points to Russia, and no one is presenting evidence or realistic alternatives.  No one is saying Trump was in on it, and no one is denying that Russia greatly prefers Trump to Clinton.

So why start bashing our own intelligence services and ignoring the best evidence in order to side with Russia?

Team Trump is falling over themselves - but the USA messed with other countries elections!  But the FBI wouldn't say they are positive!  But all they did was expose Hillary for who she was!  But the intelligence community was wrong in Iraq!  These statements are being made by Team Trump and Russian politicians at the same time.  And they are arguably true... but skipping over the entire point:

A foreign power repeatedly hacks a US political party in an attempt to influence a US election and gain leaders who will have a more favorable position. 

Foreign interference in US elections is an existential threat to democracy.  I don't care who it is supposed to benefit. To me, manipulating the election is even more hostile than the rebels in Yemen lobbying antiquated missiles at our navy ships in the gulf.  Have things gotten so partisan that it's OK so long as it helps your candidate?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 12, 2016, 12:59:14 pm
Does anyone know why Trump is so mad about the statements from the FBI, CIA, State Department, Homeland Security, Army Intelligence and others that it appears Russia hacked US political parties in an attempt to influence the election?  It appears all the evidence points to Russia, and no one is presenting evidence or realistic alternatives.  No one is saying Trump was in on it, and no one is denying that Russia greatly prefers Trump to Clinton.

So why start bashing our own intelligence services and ignoring the best evidence in order to side with Russia?

Team Trump is falling over themselves - but the USA messed with other countries elections!  But the FBI wouldn't say they are positive!  But all they did was expose Hillary for who she was!  But the intelligence community was wrong in Iraq!  These statements are being made by Team Trump and Russian politicians at the same time.  And they are arguably true... but skipping over the entire point:

A foreign power repeatedly hacks a US political party in an attempt to influence a US election and gain leaders who will have a more favorable position. 

Foreign interference in US elections is an existential threat to democracy.  I don't care who it is supposed to benefit. To me, manipulating the election is even more hostile than the rebels in Yemen lobbying antiquated missiles at our navy ships in the gulf.  Have things gotten so partisan that it's OK so long as it helps your candidate?

In Trumpland the election was rigged against him and he still won despite millions of illegitimate votes by illegal aliens for Clinton. In fact, he won a YUGE historic landslide in the electoral college, one of the best ever, and would have won by millions of votes in the popular vote if it wasn’t for Clinton cheating.

In the real world he lost the popular vote by 2.5 million votes and is the least popular president to ever take office. The very legitimacy of his win is questionable due Russian hacking and some very odd decisions made by head of the FBI, who is a Republican.

Which world do you think Trumple Thinskin wants to live in? His win was just a Yuge as his hands.

That’s why.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 12, 2016, 03:11:10 pm
Does anyone know why Trump is so mad about the statements from the FBI, CIA, State Department, Homeland Security, Army Intelligence and others that it appears Russia hacked US political parties in an attempt to influence the election?  It appears all the evidence points to Russia, and no one is presenting evidence or realistic alternatives.  No one is saying Trump was in on it, and no one is denying that Russia greatly prefers Trump to Clinton.

Foreign interference in US elections is an existential threat to democracy.  I don't care who it is supposed to benefit. To me, manipulating the election is even more hostile than the rebels in Yemen lobbying antiquated missiles at our navy ships in the gulf.  Have things gotten so partisan that it's OK so long as it helps your candidate?



It's called treason.  Attacking the CIA for calling out Russia is just the next step after he invited Putin and Russia to hack the US government systems.  That was the first act of treason.

Just gotta wonder why so many don't understand that.  Oh, yeah - it's the RWRE agenda - the ends justifies the means - regardless of reality, conscience, patriotism, or morality.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on December 12, 2016, 03:30:41 pm

Which world do you think Trumple Thinskin wants to live in? His win was just a Yuge as his hands.


That is the internet winner for today.  Carry on...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 12, 2016, 04:36:08 pm
That is the internet winner for today.  Carry on...

I didn't make it up, but I am using it as much as possible.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 13, 2016, 08:38:30 am
I'm really trying to get development threads going and let these politics threads languish, but good God...

Trump appointed a man to Secratary of State who has worked for Exxon for 40+ years and has been given awards of friendship from Vladimir Putin. He has zero public experience and has operated in an entirely different world.  When there are serious concerns that Trump is Putin's man, this is not helping.  If I were any of our allies on the border with Russia - I'd be terrified.  If I were an ally in the middle east, where Russia is suddenly relevant there, I'd be terrified. What chance does Ukraine have of keeping its territory now?

And... he appointed to the head of the Department of Energy a person who forgot the name of the agency when trying to argue it should be eliminated.  The current head is a nuclear physicist, which make sense because the department is in charge of all nuclear materials as well as research on nuclear weapons.  Rick Perry's last job was Dancing with the Stars.
http://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-gaffe/


No hyperbole:  many of these picks could have been made by an SNL skit, and people would have laughed and laughed and laughed.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 13, 2016, 08:40:09 am
I'm really trying to get development threads going and let these politics threads languish, but good God...

Trump appointed a man to Secratary of State who has worked for Exxon for 40+ years and has been given awards of friendship from Vladimir Putin. He has zero public experience and has operated in an entirely different world.  When there are serious concerns that Trump is Putin's man, this is not helping.  If I were any of our allies on the border with Russia - I'd be terrified.  If I were an ally in the middle east, where Russia is suddenly relevant there, I'd be terrified. What chance does Ukraine have of keeping its territory now?

And... he appointed to the head of the Department of Energy a person who forgot the name of the agency when trying to argue it should be eliminated.  The current head is a nuclear physicist, which make sense because the department is in charge of all nuclear materials as well as research on nuclear weapons.  Rick Perry's last job was Dancing with the Stars.
http://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-gaffe/


No hyperbole:  many of these picks could have been made by an SNL skit, and people would have laughed and laughed and laughed.


It is the world's worst bad joke being played on the American people on a grand scale.  But it's real.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 13, 2016, 08:58:10 am
I'm really trying to get development threads going and let these politics threads languish, but good God...

Trump appointed a man to Secratary of State who has worked for Exxon for 40+ years and has been given awards of friendship from Vladimir Putin. He has zero public experience and has operated in an entirely different world.  When there are serious concerns that Trump is Putin's man, this is not helping.  If I were any of our allies on the border with Russia - I'd be terrified.  If I were an ally in the middle east, where Russia is suddenly relevant there, I'd be terrified. What chance does Ukraine have of keeping its territory now?

And... he appointed to the head of the Department of Energy a person who forgot the name of the agency when trying to argue it should be eliminated.  The current head is a nuclear physicist, which make sense because the department is in charge of all nuclear materials as well as research on nuclear weapons.  Rick Perry's last job was Dancing with the Stars.
http://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-gaffe/


No hyperbole:  many of these picks could have been made by an SNL skit, and people would have laughed and laughed and laughed.

Big money special interests are now directly running the country:
We have Exxon and Big Oil running our energy, diplomatic and climate policy.
We have Fast Food running labor policy
We have Goldman Sachs running economic policy, treasury and commerce
We have a billionaire religious school activist running public education policy
And instead of our traditional civilian control of the military, we have the military in control of themselves, intelligence and homeland security


For the 1% donating money to campaigns used to mean that big contributors got special access to policy makers that the general public did not have. Trump called this a “Swamp” that he was going to drain. Instead, it turns out that if you donated millions to Trump you not only get access, you get to directly run the government department of your choice. The swamp is now in control.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on December 13, 2016, 12:39:53 pm
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/829042/thumbs/o-ANIMAL-HOUSE-facebook.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on December 13, 2016, 12:45:02 pm
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/829042/thumbs/o-ANIMAL-HOUSE-facebook.jpg)


Drinking Ice Tea out of a Jack Daniels bottle.

I'm waiting for all the people who promised they were going to Canada to go.  Actually, we are still waiting for some who promised to go to Canada when Bush II was elected to go.

 ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on December 13, 2016, 02:25:44 pm

Drinking Ice Tea out of a Jack Daniels bottle.

I'm waiting for all the people who promised they were going to Canada to go.  Actually, we are still waiting for some who promised to go to Canada when Bush II was elected to go.

 ;D


Being that's John Belushi, and knowing what he was like during filming of that movie, that could very well be real JD in that bottle.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on December 13, 2016, 02:30:46 pm
THEY TOOK THE BAR!!!!  THEY TOOK THE WHOLE F#CKING BAR!!!

I’ve owned a horse and Yorkshire Terrier.  I believe that would make me imminently qualified to be Trump’s Car Czar or Surgeon General but I’m not getting any calls yet.  Oh wait, I didn’t donate millions to his campaign.  Damn it all!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on December 13, 2016, 02:42:13 pm
Being that's John Belushi, and knowing what he was like during filming of that movie, that could very well be real JD in that bottle.

A distinct possibility.  Too much for me, even when I was young and invincible.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on December 13, 2016, 03:08:52 pm
Being that's John Belushi, and knowing what he was like during filming of that movie, that could very well be real JD in that bottle.

Forget it, he's rollin'.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 13, 2016, 07:46:57 pm
Trump appointing Kanye West as head of Health and Human Service is pure genius.

(http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/161213102630-02-kanye-west-trump-tower-1213-exlarge-169.jpg)
/s


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 16, 2016, 04:41:10 pm
Trying to get an early start on rounding up the intellectuals.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/12/14/trump-transition-says-request-for-names-of-climate-scientists-was-not-authorized/

Look out gypsies and homosexuals, you're next.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on December 16, 2016, 05:41:27 pm
"This time Milo had gone too far. Bombing his own men and planes was more than even the most phlegmatic observer could stomach, and it looked like the end for him. He had contracted with the Germans to bomb Milo's own camp.… Milo was all washed up until he opened his books to the public and disclosed the tremendous profit he had made."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 16, 2016, 09:06:20 pm
THEY TOOK THE BAR!!!!  THEY TOOK THE WHOLE F#CKING BAR!!!

I’ve owned a horse and Yorkshire Terrier.  I believe that would make me imminently qualified to be Trump’s Car Czar or Surgeon General but I’m not getting any calls yet.  Oh wait, I didn’t donate millions to his campaign.  Damn it all!
The United States in about 18 months:


- Fred's Car!America!
- Flounder, You can't spend your whole life worrying about your mistakes! You f*cked up - you trusted us! Trumple Thinskin!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zOXtWxhlsUg/hqdefault.jpg)
- My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.
- Better listen to him, Flounder, he's in pre-med.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on December 17, 2016, 02:39:28 pm
"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life son..."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on December 17, 2016, 10:51:56 pm
Digging on the Animal House riffs!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on December 18, 2016, 12:18:16 pm
...and Catch 22!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 18, 2016, 03:15:08 pm
I didn't make it up, but I am using it as much as possible.

Too bad you didnt.  We would be famous.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z8nwhfKBrHI/V5_DUQI6PXI/AAAAAAAABO0/Y8Ud_sUB-REbzylEJTg2PzrvtTMQBs9Mg/w564-h1062/trumplethinskin.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 20, 2016, 02:33:36 pm
Am not believing my own ears.  I have mentioned how some of the people I work with are rabid – and I mean truly, foaming at the mouth, slobber-slinging, gnawing off their own legs rabid about how great it will be to have Trump as President.  Well, today, I heard doubts expressed by one of the “most” of these….he is starting to be really concerned (his words) about the direction Trump seems to be taking with some of the appointments and his apparent prodding of China.  He is not liking the logical extension of everything that Trump has told us all right up front.  All I could do was click on this and play it for him….  Not completely sure he ‘got’ what I was expressing, but ya gotta try every chance ya get.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBgeCZW3upg




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 20, 2016, 03:22:54 pm
No, you have to give him a chance.  Isn't it obvious?  By appointing life-long political insiders along with big executives and business tycoons, they are going to reign in some of the harms done to this country by political insiders, big banks, and oligarchs. 

Personally, I think his new appointment for the Department of Not Eating My Baby is right in line with many of his other picks:

(https://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/dingo.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 20, 2016, 03:28:07 pm
No, you have to give him a chance.  Isn't it obvious?  By appointing life-long political insiders along with big executives and business tycoons, they are going to reign in some of the harms done to this country by political insiders, big banks, and oligarchs. 

Personally, I think his new appointment for the Department of Not Eating My Baby is right in line with many of his other picks:




Or his appointment to a new cabinet post of Secretary of P**** Wrangling!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 20, 2016, 04:12:06 pm
No, you have to give him a chance.  Isn't it obvious?  By appointing life-long political insiders along with big executives and business tycoons, they are going to reign in some of the harms done to this country by political insiders, big banks, and oligarchs. 

Personally, I think his new appointment for the Department of Not Eating My Baby is right in line with many of his other picks:

(https://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/dingo.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/euynO-7jqus/hqdefault.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 22, 2016, 06:09:16 pm
Getting closer.

Trump Team Asks State Dept. To Name Those Working On Gender Equality
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/506629695/trump-team-asks-state-dept-to-name-those-working-on-gender-equality



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 23, 2016, 08:25:29 am
Surely they are just asking so they can give them a raise, bump their funding, and maybe some sort of special arm band to wear... The fact that Team Trump asking "whose working on [insert issue here]" makes people fear retaliation is a sad statement.


Meanwhile - yesterday both Trump and Putin expressed a desire to build more nuclear weapons. I can't stress this enough, but this isn't fake news.  Our future president was asked to clarify tweets about expanding nuclear weapons and he said:  "Let it be an arms race. We will outmatch them at every pass and outlast them all."

You see, Vladimir was making his usually tough guy talk to Russia TV, talking about boosting Russia's nuclear arsenal.  This is a speech he has been giving since Bush II threw out the anti-ballistic missile treaty and build a defense system in Poland.  To date, Russia has built no new nukes.  But Trump heard about Vladimir's tough talk, so he had to tweet about it in a way that made him tougher.

I know I already said this, but this actually happened. Because Trump couldn't stand someone seeming tougher than him he started a nuclear arms race on twitter.

A couple of hours later a Trump spokesman said that there wouldn't actually be an arms race and that The Donald didn't really intend to build more nuclear weapons.  You see, it was a metaphor of sorts for being tough and convincing other countries that there is no point in another arms race.  So once they all see the light and don't build nuclear weapons (in other words, keep doing what they've been doing for 35 years and not build nukes) its because Trump is a master at diplomacy.  By bluffing on twitter, and then telling everyone a couple of hours later via spokesman that he was bluffing, he saves the world.

Or something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-nuclear-idUSKBN14B1ZZ
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/22/donald-trump-vladimir-putn-signal-renewal-nuclear-arms-race/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on December 23, 2016, 10:08:33 am
That's the optimistic scenario. The pessimistic view is that he once again blurted out something because of his lack of historical understanding of what you easily explained. He heard Putin puff, he knows he's accused of being chummy with Putin so he puffs bigger. Someone explains the history to him and he recants or rather, makes up a plausible rationalization for his people to digest. Rationalizing is an important part of narcissism.

His circle is billionaires/multi-millionaires from the business world. They all think that because they excelled at making wealth that they are good at everything. To them politics is only a means to a profitable end. Intellectuals are anathema to them. The leader's only tether to reality is a paid gun like Conaway. Her view of reality is whatever her employer tells her is reality.

Kim Jong must be laughing hysterically. Finally leadership he can relate to!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 23, 2016, 04:48:22 pm
Today the idiot tweeting

Quote
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!
4:26 PM - 22 Dec 2016
  13,252 13,252 Retweets   51,861 51,861 likes

First, it should be noted that the president doesn't make defense contracts.  Doesn't negotiate them.  Doesn't decide what programs to go with.  That'd be Congress, the one with the purse strings.

Second, the Donald doesn't know a damn thing except something he saw shared on Facebook or somewhere else on the interwebs.  Does anyone, and I mean anyone, actually think Trump could tell you the cost of either plane or the comparative advantages of one over the other?  Of course not.  But the hell with it, lets send out a tweet and cost Lockhead tens of millions of dollars in market value.  Why?  Maybe because all of his China tweets cost Boeing boatloads of stock value because it put their contracts with Chinese airlines in doubt. 

YOU CAN'T REPLACE THE F-35 WITH AN F-18 ANY MORE THAN YOU CAN REPLACE AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER WITH A CRUISE SHIP (http://www.popsci.com/you-cant-replace-f35-with-f18-donald-trump-tweet)

The F-18 first entered service in 1978.  You can update it a lot, and I'm sure it still has lots of good life left in it.  But come on... how many cars first designed in 1978 are still competitive with a car designed this decade?  And when I'm driving, no one is actively competing with me to see who can kill the other one first. Now, the F-18 might be a better naval aviation plane (longer range, more bombs, more robust).  But they aren't interchangeable.

Lets finish with the fact that the guy doesn't know how to share a tweet.  He just cuts and pastes someone elses tweet and then adds:  @MikePense: "whatever it says".  Seriously, if you tweet dozens of times per week and you can't figure out how to share someones tweet... that doesn't speak well for you.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump


Someone needs to take away his twitter.  Seriously, it is a global security threat and tool of propaganda. Just this week he has shown great love to Russia, screwed with major defense contractors stock, picked a fight with China, tried to reignite the nuclear arms race, and spewed forth crap with no basis in reality.  Though, truthfully, most of the tweets were just about how great Donald Trump is.

No press conference in 6 months... but lots of tweets.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/22/politics/donald-trump-24-hours/index.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on December 23, 2016, 05:17:25 pm
And when I'm driving, no one is actively competing with me to see who can kill the other one first.

Have you driven on 169 lately?

 ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 23, 2016, 09:51:27 pm
Today the idiot tweeting

For someone supposedly hawkish and pro-jobs, he sure has been sending a lot of defense industry's stocks into death spirals.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on December 24, 2016, 08:19:58 am
For someone supposedly hawkish and pro-jobs, he sure has been sending a lot of defense industry's stocks into death spirals.

You don't think he'd do that so his family members could buy those stocks at a low, low discount price, do you?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 26, 2016, 05:26:14 pm
Moe along....nothing to see here...

Linda McMahon - appt to run the Small Business Administration.  Contributor of more than $5 million to Trumps fake charity.  Nope, nothing criminal in any of this...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ny-attorney-general-hinders-trump-plan-shutter-foundation/story?id=44401250






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on December 29, 2016, 09:23:55 pm
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15698287_1210263375695311_7032087328376354646_n.jpg?oh=d417cc1f5d08299f64fb338ea20c5f2d&oe=58E9F0FE)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on December 29, 2016, 10:30:12 pm
I never noticed trump doesnt have a reflection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 03, 2017, 08:28:47 am
First act of the new Congress:

Kill the independent ethics investigation committee.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/03/house-gop-votes-to-gut-independent-ethics-office.html

Ryan and Kevin McArthy were against the change, but it passed with flying colors.  Essentially, instead of an independent group investigating and making conclusions on ethics complaints, the House will police itself. Back to the way things were before 2008 - when the new panel took over and sent several members of Congress to jail for corruption, bribery, etc.

I really struggle to think of a good reason to do this...

Quote
"Republicans claim they want to 'drain the swamp,' but the night before the new Congress gets sworn in, the House GOP has eliminated the only independent ethics oversight of their actions," the California lawmaker said in a statement. "Evidently, ethics are the first casualty of the new Republican Congress."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2017, 09:18:12 am
First act of the new Congress:

Kill the independent ethics investigation committee.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/03/house-gop-votes-to-gut-independent-ethics-office.html

Ryan and Kevin McArthy were against the change, but it passed with flying colors.  Essentially, instead of an independent group investigating and making conclusions on ethics complaints, the House will police itself. Back to the way things were before 2008 - when the new panel took over and sent several members of Congress to jail for corruption, bribery, etc.

I really struggle to think of a good reason to do this...



Reason??   It's what they have been telling the American people they are gonna do for years now - dismantle all personal rights/protections while allowing unfettered expansion of corporate power, even to the point of getting corporations defined as "people".  Nobody can possibly be even mildly surprised by this at this point in time - they are just keeping their promises.



And yet, people in Michigan still voted for Jill Stein, taking the votes from Hillary (and the other states that put Trump over), citing "voting their conscience".  I call B... S...!!   They were only engaged in mental masturbation, or totally oblivious to the facts of what this election was all about.  Either way, if not criminally negligent, they were at the very least, morally negligent and/or morally bankrupt, given all the deviant behavior Trump bragged about on nationally broadcast media.







Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 03, 2017, 11:41:22 am
Decision reversed after Trump blasts them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-03/house-gop-votes-to-strip-ethics-office-of-independent-status (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-03/house-gop-votes-to-strip-ethics-office-of-independent-status)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on January 03, 2017, 01:37:48 pm
One congresscritter said this was meant to improve transparency. George Orwell would be proud.

Odd how they did this by secret ballot in the dead of night, so to speak. And once it was dragged out in the open, they scurried for cover like cockroaches.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2017, 02:00:48 pm
Decision reversed after Trump blasts them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-03/house-gop-votes-to-strip-ethics-office-of-independent-status (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-03/house-gop-votes-to-strip-ethics-office-of-independent-status)


It was a much wider backlash than Trump.   Unless he orchestrated this with the House to get some Brownie Points...!   And we all know what he would want to be doing with Brownie Points....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 03, 2017, 04:25:27 pm
At least according to Ford officials, FOMOCO is impressed by Trump’s pro-business attitude.  How much that actually weighed on this decision to scrap plans for a plant in Mexico and renovating their Flat Rock plant is anyone’s guess.  Perhaps it could have been a dead fish mailed to Bill Ford with a return address in Trump Tower which influenced the decision.

Quote
Ford Motor, which had been bashed by Donald Trump for shipping jobs outside the U.S., announced Tuesday that it will cancel production of a $1.6 billion plant in Mexico, and will instead invest $700 million in Flat Rock, Michigan.

The U.S. auto giant said it will add 700 direct new jobs in Flat Rock to produce high-tech electrified and autonomous vehicles, plus the Ford Mustang and Lincoln Continental.

Ford had originally planned to build its Ford Focus in San Luis Potosi, Mexico. The company said it will continue to build its Focus at an existing plant in Hermosillo, Mexico, to improve company profitability.

Ford Chairman Bill Ford Jr. said he spoke with President-elect Trump on Tuesday morning to tell him of the decision to invest in the U.S. and cancel the Mexico plant, according to Reuters.

"We're also encouraged by the pro-growth policies that President-elect Trump and the new Congress have indicated that they will pursue," Ford President and CEO Mark Fields said in a statement.

A source told Reuters there were no negotiations between Trump and the company.

In Twitter posts, Trump claimed credit for Ford's announcement.

During the final weeks of the presidential campaign, Trump slammed what he called Ford's "horrible" plans to move all small car production to Mexico within three years.

"It used to be cars were made in Flint and you couldn't drink the water in Mexico," he said in a September speech in Flint, Michigan. "Now the cars are made in Mexico, and you can't drink the water in Flint. That's not good." He was referring to the lead water crisis in the the Michigan city.

Trump also claimed that he helped stop Ford from moving an entire factory from Kentucky to Mexico.

It is not clear how many jobs would have been impacted if the low-selling MKC had moved to Mexico.

Earlier Tuesday, Trump attacked General Motors on Twitter, saying the auto giant is making a Chevy Cruze model in Mexico and then sending them to U.S. dealers tax free. Trump had previously bragged about a deal with United Technologies unit Carrier to keep some jobs in Indiana.

Ford's changes are a part its plan to become an auto and mobility company. The company said it will invest $4.5 billion in electrified vehicles by 2020.

"As more and more consumers around the world become interested in electrified vehicles, Ford is committed to being a leader in providing consumers with a broad range of electrified vehicles, services and solutions that make people's lives better," Fields said in the company's announcement.

The electrified vehicles announced on Tuesday include, fully electric small SUV, coming by 2020 and a hybrid version of its best-selling F-150 pickup.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2017, 08:20:27 am
I suspected there is a mix of reasons, Trump's political pressure being among them.  Also, fear that Trump would pressing Congress into tariffs if bad PR kept popping up around US manufacturing interests in Mexico. If you cant avoid that by not building one plant for 4 years, good move.

Or, we could believe what Ford said:

Quote
Ford CEO Mark Fields said the company decided in recent weeks not to build the plant because of declining demand for small cars in the U.S

The Mexican plant was meant to build the Ford Focus. They simply are not building a new plant to build small cars. The $700mil in Michigan will go towards electric vehicles and autonomous cars... higher tech manufacturing that is not well suited for Mexico.
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/update-ford-cancels-plan-to-build-new-mexican-plant-adds/article_841643da-8d35-51d1-a26d-bef931c66318.html

If you were on the fence about building a new plant in Mexico for economic reasons, Trump's anti-trade rhetoric and bad PR could certainly convince you to cancel those plans.  If it was an either or decision, that's a "W" for sure and Trump's interference with private business may have helped.  But, this is not an instance of Trump bullying a company into bringing Mexican jobs back to America fair and square.  That takes economics (not counting government bribes), no matter what The Donald says.   

On a related note:  the Peso dropped on the news.  It is down 20% since Trump was elected. Do you think Trump has any notion of the fact that bad economic news for Mexico is bad news for illegal immigration into the US?  An economically strong and stable Mexico is in our interest.  By all means, American jobs come first, but no one should take pleasure in Mexico's pain... even if just for self interest reasons.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 04, 2017, 11:34:24 am

It was a much wider backlash than Trump.   Unless he orchestrated this with the House to get some Brownie Points...!   And we all know what he would want to be doing with Brownie Points....


They learn from the best...

http://www.politico.com/story/2010/06/lawmakers-seek-to-gut-ethics-office-038345

Both parties have been at this for some time. Which says to me either it really is a problem, or that congressmen like to act above the law regardless of party. I tend to believe the later.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 04, 2017, 03:18:44 pm
To be sure, there may be some who give Trump's Twitter account credit for the course correction. But though it surely had an impact on some of the members, Trump's tweets merely rode the crest of public opinion against the changes, rather than leading it. It is a mistake to give Trump too much credit, just as it is a mistake to take his Drain the Swamp plan seriously.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/opinions/house-ethics-drutman-opinion/




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 04, 2017, 04:14:26 pm
To be sure, there may be some who give Trump's Twitter account credit for the course correction. But though it surely had an impact on some of the members, Trump's tweets merely rode the crest of public opinion against the changes, rather than leading it. It is a mistake to give Trump too much credit, just as it is a mistake to take his Drain the Swamp plan seriously.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/opinions/house-ethics-drutman-opinion/




Is this not the same as the "lead from behind" approach that seems to work out well for another recent/current President?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: saintnicster on January 05, 2017, 11:25:23 am
To be sure, there may be some who give Trump's Twitter account credit for the course correction. But though it surely had an impact on some of the members, Trump's tweets merely rode the crest of public opinion against the changes, rather than leading it. It is a mistake to give Trump too much credit, just as it is a mistake to take his Drain the Swamp plan seriously.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/opinions/house-ethics-drutman-opinion/

And to point out another act of copying, the article also references the then Democratic party wanting to "drain the swamp" too.

Both parties failed on both issues, for now


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 12:52:34 pm
And to point out another act of copying, the article also references the then Democratic party wanting to "drain the swamp" too.

Both parties failed on both issues, for now

That was Cruella Pelosi that claimed the need to "Drain The Swamp"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600056.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600056.html)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 05, 2017, 09:06:14 pm
Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/border-wall-house-republicans-donald-trump-taxpayers/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on January 05, 2017, 09:11:08 pm
Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/border-wall-house-republicans-donald-trump-taxpayers/

Congress can get Mexico to pay.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: saintnicster on January 06, 2017, 09:19:04 am
Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/border-wall-house-republicans-donald-trump-taxpayers/

Already planning on increasing the deficit! Don't people at least pretend that they won't be creating debt?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 06, 2017, 10:38:08 am
They warned us that if a majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton, we would get historic corruption in Washington.

They were right!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 06, 2017, 10:53:04 am
They warned us that if a majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton, we would get historic corruption in Washington.

They were right!



Well played, H!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 06, 2017, 10:53:19 am
In the last 24 hours Trump has:

- again denied all US intelligence agencies in favor of believing a wanted man and Vladimir Putin and makes up reasons why... but it sounds so truthy!  Why is he asking Twitter about US intelligent reports that he has access to and for which he can literally summon the author and ask questions?  Oh right, propoganda purposes.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/intel-report-says-us-identifies-go-betweens-who-gave-emails-to-wikileaks/index.html

- again used his twitter in an attempt to interfere with private enterprise (this time Toyota moving a plant from Canada to Mexico)

- advised all US political ambassadors they will be terminated immediately so the spots can be filled with Trump donors (the customary allowance for family circumstances, emergencies, or ongoing business have been revoked)

- pushed to defund Planned Parenthood's sexual health services (abortion is already not funded by Federal Law).  So we decrease abortions by refusing to provide birth control...  (the Planned Parenthood thing is a political obsession)

- formally admitted that the US will pay to build a border wall that experts say won't do much to address the actual issue (but we will totally get paid back). He now refers to the border wall as "the Great Wall (for sake of speed),"  ignoring both the fact that the Great Wall failed to keep out invaders and that typing "for the sake of speed" was far longer than just typing "border wall."

- took time to mock Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Apprentice" ratings and brag about a meeting with the editor of Vogue, he apparently still doesn't have time for answers from intelligence briefings...


Trump has not mentioned year end reports showing
- Unemployment below 5%
- Real wages rising at increasing rates
- Corporate profits up
- Stock markets near record highs
- 2016 saw fewer terror attacks on US targets, far fewer military deaths, etc. etc. etc,

How long after Trump is sworn in before he starts pointing these things out and taking credit?




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 06, 2017, 11:01:50 am
In the last 24 hours Trump has:

- again denied all US intelligence agencies in favor of believing a wanted man and Vladimir Putin and makes up reasons why... but it sounds so truthy!  Why is he asking Twitter about US intelligent reports that he has access to and for which he can literally summon the author and ask questions?  Oh right, propoganda purposes.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/intel-report-says-us-identifies-go-betweens-who-gave-emails-to-wikileaks/index.html

- again used his twitter in an attempt to interfere with private enterprise (this time Toyota moving a plant from Canada to Mexico)

- advised all US political ambassadors they will be terminated immediately so the spots can be filled with Trump donors (the customary allowance for family circumstances, emergencies, or ongoing business have been revoked)

- pushed to defund Planned Parenthood's sexual health services (abortion is already not funded by Federal Law).  So we decrease abortions by refusing to provide birth control...  (the Planned Parenthood thing is a political obsession)

- formally admitted that the US will pay to build a border wall that experts say won't do much to address the actual issue (but we will totally get paid back). He now refers to the border wall as "the Great Wall (for sake of speed),"  ignoring both the fact that the Great Wall failed to keep out invaders and that typing "for the sake of speed" was far longer than just typing "border wall."

- took time to mock Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Apprentice" ratings and brag about a meeting with the editor of Vogue, he apparently still doesn't have time for answers from intelligence briefings...


Trump has not mentioned year end reports showing
- Unemployment below 5%
- Real wages rising at increasing rates
- Corporate profits up
- Stock markets near record highs
- 2016 saw fewer terror attacks on US targets, far fewer military deaths, etc. etc. etc,

How long after Trump is sworn in before he starts pointing these things out and taking credit?




(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15871701_10208080601115719_1577943023993852623_n.jpg?oh=f7ec315cc77c112cc2d36ef9fd1f3b2c&oe=591C07CE)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 06, 2017, 11:03:18 am
How long after Trump is sworn in before he starts pointing these things out and taking credit?

Well, he's "not a politician" right, so probably just a shade under when a standard politician would.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 06, 2017, 11:07:45 am
Well, he's "not a politician" right, so probably just a shade under when a standard politician would.

And on Twitter.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 06, 2017, 02:01:06 pm
Well played, H!


Sadly...I am not clever enough to come up with that on my own.  Saw it on the interwebz and embraced it to the very core of my being!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on January 06, 2017, 03:26:32 pm


How long after Trump is sworn in before he starts pointing these things out and taking credit?




What makes you think he'll wait that long?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 09, 2017, 09:55:49 am
Some celebrity gave a speech at some awards show and said people in power that use their platform to lob insults at everyone set a bad example and have the effect of telling everyone in the country that it is OK to simply insult anyone you disagree with.   Trump reacts by insulting the celebrity on twitter.

How can anyone miss the humor in that?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 09, 2017, 12:04:08 pm
Some celebrity gave a speech at some awards show and said people in power that use their platform to lob insults at everyone set a bad example and have the effect of telling everyone in the country that it is OK to simply insult anyone you disagree with.   Trump reacts by insulting the celebrity on twitter.

How can anyone miss the humor in that?

It would be humorous if he wasn't about to be President. Since he is not just some childish thin skinned reality show idiot, it's not funny anymore.

We are a profoundly stupid country.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 09, 2017, 12:18:23 pm
Some celebrity gave a speech at some awards show and said people in power that use their platform to lob insults at everyone set a bad example and have the effect of telling everyone in the country that it is OK to simply insult anyone you disagree with.   Trump reacts by insulting the celebrity on twitter.

How can anyone miss the humor in that?


Trump calls Meryl Streep “a Hillary flunky who lost big.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/01/08/meryl-streep-called-out-donald-trump-at-the-golden-globes-read-her-speech-here


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 09, 2017, 01:00:26 pm
Some celebrity gave a speech at some awards show and said people in power that use their platform to lob insults at everyone set a bad example and have the effect of telling everyone in the country that it is OK to simply insult anyone you disagree with.   Trump reacts by insulting the celebrity on twitter.

How can anyone miss the humor in that?

The humor was Ms. Streep calling on Hollyweird to save the country.

God help us all...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 09, 2017, 01:27:06 pm
The humor was Ms. Streep calling on Hollyweird to save the country.


We need the principled press to hold power to account, to call them on the carpet for every outrage. That’s why our founders enshrined the press and its freedoms in our Constitution. So I only ask the famously well-heeled Hollywood foreign press and all of us in our community, to join me in supporting the Committee to Protect Journalists, because we’re going to need them going forward, and they’ll need us to safeguard the truth.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 09, 2017, 01:28:23 pm
I don't think she called on Hollywood to save the country, she called on the press.  I listened to the speech when I saw the 700th Facebook post about it.  Really - there isn't much in that speech to disagree on.  It was fairly tame.

There really isn't even a reason for Trump supporters or Trump himself to be mad:

Quote
There was one performance this year that stunned me. It sank its hooks in my heart. Not because it was good. There was nothing good about it. But it was effective and it did its job. It made its intended audience laugh and show their teeth. It was that moment when the person asking to sit in the most respected seat in our country imitated a disabled reporter, someone he outranked in privilege, power, and the capacity to fight back. It kind of broke my heart when I saw it. I still can't get it out of my head because it wasn't in a movie. It was real life.

And this instinct to humiliate, when it's modeled by someone in the public platform, by someone powerful, it filters down into everybody's life, because it kind of gives permission for other people to do the same thing. Disrespect invites disrespect. Violence incites violence. When the powerful use their position to bully others, we all lose.

This brings me to the press. We need the principled press to hold power to account, to call them on the carpet for every outrage.That's why our founders enshrined the press and its freedoms in our constitution. So I only ask the famously well-heeled Hollywood Foreign Press and all of us in our community to join me in supporting the committee to protect journalists. Because we're going to need them going forward. And they'll need us to safeguard the truth.
http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/news/a19828/meryl-street-golden-globes-speech-transcript/  (first "transcript" that came up on a Google search)

A lot of opinion.  A few paragraphs of jabber at the front and end that I didn't cut and paste.  But I pasted the meat and potatoes regarding Trump.

- Trump did imitate a disabled person
- Trump does outrank the person in privilege, power and ability to fight back
- It did play well to Trump supporters
- Trump's instinct is to humiliate and mock people he disagrees with
- Violence does beget violence.  Disrespect more disrespect.
- And journalists are a foundation of a democratic nation

Really, not a lot to disagree with.  You don't have to like the tone, certainly it wasn't meant to be flattering to Trump.  But it wasn't controversial statmeents.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 09, 2017, 01:31:06 pm
No.  Here let me help you:

We need the principled press to hold power to account, to call them on the carpet for every outrage. That’s why our founders enshrined the press and its freedoms in our Constitution. So I only ask the famously well-heeled Hollywood foreign press and all of us in our community, to join me in supporting the Committee to Protect Journalists, because we’re going to need them going forward, and they’ll need us to safeguard the truth.

Which she called on the her friends to protect journalist, as if they couldn't survive without Hollywood. I can read/listen.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 09, 2017, 01:32:06 pm
And I'm with you cannon, just that I find the humor in Hollywood's saving graces. As if we should be taking cues on life from them. The nerve really.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 09, 2017, 01:56:59 pm
The humor was Ms. Streep calling on Hollyweird to save the country.

God help us all...


Sadly, that would be more effective than Trump....

And yes, God help us with Trump where he is going to be!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 09, 2017, 01:59:28 pm
Latest psycho-hose-beast-apologist BS from Kellyanne....I never watch Rachel, but this post pretty well tells everything there is to know about Kellyanne!



http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/conway-look-trumps-heart-not-whats-come-out-his-mouth?cid=sm_fb_maddow


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 09, 2017, 03:44:56 pm
Joe Republicontin...

http://www.gbpotus.com/single-post/2017/01/02/A-Day-in-the-Life-of-Joe-Republican



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 09, 2017, 03:57:07 pm
As a reality TV star, it works out great to just write off ridiculous statements.  Its funny, it keeps the nonexistent plot as an always moving target, and people watch just to see what happens next.  Its why Haward Stern got popular.

As the leader of the largest economy in the world, ,the largest political force on planet earth, and the most powerful military ever put together - "just don't pay attention to what he says" isn't a very good strategy.  But even if we do that, we can still pay attention to his actions - right?  Like telling the head of the National Nuclear Security Administration (http://gizmodo.com/trump-just-dismissed-the-people-in-charge-of-maintainin-1790908093?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark) and all of his deputy's that they need to clean our their desks on January 20th, even though there are not any new nominees or a timetable for anyone to take over the job of SECURING THE WORLDS LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENAL!  This isn't a patronage appointment.  Most Presidents just keep the old guard in place for months as they work through other issues.  No one has ever intentionally vacated the post. Obama left the Bush appointee in place for 5-6 years. We will go months without anyone officially in charge of our nuclear weapons because "screw Obama, LOL!!1!!"  

Speaking of not taking what they say seriously:

Quote
Crowley has been accused of plagiarism before. In 1999, Slate reported a column by Crowley in the Wall Street Journal mirrored a 1988 article in Commentary, the neoconservative magazine.
"Had we known of the parallels, we would not have published the article," a Journal editor’s note said at the time. Crowley denied the charge at the time, saying, "I did not, nor would I ever, use material from a source without citing it."
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/kfile-trump-monica-crowley-plagiarized-multiple-sources-2012-book/

Which is a fun quote, because someone apparently ran her latest book through a plagiarism filter of some kind.  The results sure are interesting. (http://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/kfile-trump-monica-crowley-plagiarized-multiple-sources-2012-book/)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 09, 2017, 04:53:54 pm
As a reality TV star, it works out great to just write off ridiculous statements.  Its funny, it keeps the nonexistent plot as an always moving target, and people watch just to see what happens next.  Its why Haward Stern got popular.




He is calling Streep "overrated" as an actor....

If 157 awards make her "overrated", what does 6 bankruptcies make him as a businessman?



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on January 11, 2017, 08:15:49 am
Lol...The butt-hurt is still strong......


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 11, 2017, 09:09:02 am
(http://jokideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/403162_10150613644143465_129446698464_11144620_448774237_n.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on January 11, 2017, 09:31:16 am
When he said he was worried about leaks, we thought he meant national security, not his depends...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 11, 2017, 09:41:05 am
When he said he was worried about leaks, we thought he meant national security, not his depends...

Actually, the allegations state he was the 'receiver'....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 11, 2017, 10:56:04 am
Actually, the allegations state he was the 'receiver'....

You win the internets.  ;D

And now look who is making the Nazi comparisons:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/01/11/trump-intel-leaks-like-nazi-germany.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on January 11, 2017, 12:18:20 pm
I read the report with the yellow highlighted portions. It really didn't say he was the "receiver" but merely a watcher. Nonetheless I entertain all humorous references to the "golden one".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 11, 2017, 12:44:39 pm
Don Henley was ahead of the curve in 1989........

Quote
Now it's take and take takeover, takeover
It's all take and never give
All these trumped up towers
They're just golden showers
Where are people supposed to live?

You can arm yourself, alarm yourself
But there's nowhere you can run
'Cause a man with a briefcase
Can steal more money
Than any man with a gun

"Gimme What You Got" from the album Building The Perfect Beast

https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tefurydhtepourk7jit3gs6c53m?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics (https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tefurydhtepourk7jit3gs6c53m?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 11, 2017, 03:03:06 pm
Your in trouble.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 11, 2017, 03:23:10 pm
Lol...The butt-hurt is still strong......


Ahhh...back to the old oral/anal fixations....


Butt what else would one expect from fans of the Pedophile in Chief ?


Today's umbrage about "fake news" from Russia - HA!!  So funny...if it wasn't so serious.  Sounds like fake birth certificate news...??




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 11, 2017, 05:39:00 pm

Ahhh...back to the old oral/anal fixations....


Butt what else would one expect from fans of the Pedophile in Chief ?


Today's umbrage about "fake news" from Russia - HA!!  So funny...if it wasn't so serious.  Sounds like fake birth certificate news...??




The hypocrisy is palpable...so much so it almost tastes like burnt toast!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on January 11, 2017, 06:55:33 pm
"Real eyes, realize, real lies" - (Machine Head on the album "Burn My Eyes", 1994)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 11, 2017, 10:09:41 pm
(http://i.giphy.com/26DOv0UKKzf2FPGKY.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 11, 2017, 10:20:36 pm
(http://i.giphy.com/26DOv0UKKzf2FPGKY.gif)

Wow.

He does love him some "gold" though


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on January 11, 2017, 10:28:10 pm
Wow.
He does love him some "gold" though

I wouldn't want my plane sprayed with "yellow water".
 
 ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 12, 2017, 12:04:09 am

So, the big news leak from Russia about Trump paying hookers to come to his hotel room and pee on his bed... for the most part, that would sound about right except for the fact that he never pays anyone for services rendered, so....busted !!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 12, 2017, 08:14:07 am
Lets pretend that the dossier is totally made up by some kid in Cleveland and that our intelligence services (as well as UK intelligence services) are too stupid to know the difference.  We can still take away information from the press conference:

1) Trump now says Russia probably did hack the DNC.  So it turns out they were right about that, but now that there is more information that appears negative for Trump, it is time to start attacking the intelligence services again.  An important nuisance that the Donald is missing:  the intelligence services didn't say the information was accurate.  They merely advised him that it exists. Still, the pattern of "attack if you feel threatened" remains strong.

Also worth noting that the CIA/FBI/NSA could not more stop this document from getting around than it could stop the fake news from the kids in Albania or the Hillary emails.

2) Again he reiterated that Mexico isn't going to pay for the wall.  Rather we are going to involuntarily loan the money to Mexico and force them to repay us sometime in the future through unknown means.  Basically - we are paying for it, but he still really wants Mexico to pay for it but doesn't know how to make that happen.

3) He is still obsessed with Hillary Clinton.  He brought her up several times in the press conference, out of context.  Usually, "do you think Hillary could do any better?"

4) Trump's man crush on Vladimir remains strong. 

5) He doesn't have any real plans.  Never, in a response to a reporters question, did he even hint that he had a real plan on anything.

6) He is an undignified donkey.  He cut people off, insulted people, and was generally more of an donkey to the media than a pissed off NFL coach.  That wasn't his campaign persona, that's who he is.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 12, 2017, 08:38:00 am
Lets pretend that the dossier is totally made up by some kid in Cleveland and that our intelligence services (as well as UK intelligence services) are too stupid to know the difference.  We can still take away information from the press conference:

1) Trump now says Russia probably did hack the DNC.  So it turns out they were right about that, but now that there is more information that appears negative for Trump, it is time to start attacking the intelligence services again.  An important nuisance that the Donald is missing:  the intelligence services didn't say the information was accurate.  They merely advised him that it exists. Still, the pattern of "attack if you feel threatened" remains strong.

Also worth noting that the CIA/FBI/NSA could not more stop this document from getting around than it could stop the fake news from the kids in Albania or the Hillary emails.

2) Again he reiterated that Mexico isn't going to pay for the wall.  Rather we are going to involuntarily loan the money to Mexico and force them to repay us sometime in the future through unknown means.  Basically - we are paying for it, but he still really wants Mexico to pay for it but doesn't know how to make that happen.

3) He is still obsessed with Hillary Clinton.  He brought her up several times in the press conference, out of context.  Usually, "do you think Hillary could do any better?"

4) Trump's man crush on Vladimir remains strong. 

5) He doesn't have any real plans.  Never, in a response to a reporters question, did he even hint that he had a real plan on anything.

6) He is an undignified donkey.  He cut people off, insulted people, and was generally more of an donkey to the media than a pissed off NFL coach.  That wasn't his campaign persona, that's who he is.

He's a childish idiot. This is still just so unbelievable.

His approval rating stands at 37% right now and he hasn't even taken office yet. How low can it go?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on January 12, 2017, 09:35:51 am
It can go to 30% which is the amount of die-hard republicans that just don't care what he or the party does. Funny, because he isn't really a republican anyway, he's Palladin.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 12, 2017, 12:32:21 pm
I think they are waiting for inauguration, then "Trump" up an impeachment case and get Pence into the job.

Lots of talk about Article 1, Section 9, clause 8, in particular Emoluments.  He can then make the case that business dealings are not profits from King, Prince, or Foreign State....



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on January 12, 2017, 01:55:19 pm
Apparently at press-conference:
  • He claimed cnn was "fake news"
  • Stood next to a stack of fake documents (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/313907-trump-didnt-allow-reporters-to-see-documents-detailing-split) that were purportedly his plans for distancing himself from his businesses
  • Took question from his fake-news buddies @ Brietbart


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 12, 2017, 01:56:55 pm
I think they are waiting for inauguration, then "Trump" up an impeachment case and get Pence into the job.

Lots of talk about Article 1, Section 9, clause 8, in particular Emoluments.  He can then make the case that business dealings are not profits from King, Prince, or Foreign State....



I don't know about that. I'm sure most Republicans in Congress would love to be rid of him as soon as possible, but Republican voters would be livid.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 12, 2017, 02:50:22 pm
I don't know about that. I'm sure most Republicans in Congress would love to be rid of him as soon as possible, but Republican voters would be livid.


Probably.  The real Republicans are in a serious bind.  There are no morals, ethics, conscience, or anything resembling human decency in this person (Trump) nor some of the people he has selected so far - how about that Sessions sleaze...?  When one looks and listens to his history over the last 30 years, it is obvious that anyone who feels he is the right choice has set aside all their professed values.  Not only has he obliterated something as relatively simple as the 10 Commandments, he has broken secular law at every turn when given a choice that would enrich him versus not.  One thing ya can't accuse him of is the biggest thing that his supporters who wrap themselves in the "Shroud" are guilty of - hypocrisy.  He tells us - literally - exactly what he is and his apologists give it a pass.  No way to excuse all he says and does without compromising their values beyond all recognition.  Lying to themselves may be the worst of all, but lying to the rest of us about being God-fearing, patriotic, good, honest  Americans is almost just as bad.


Mad Dog is the exception - I don't think he is the right guy for Secretary of Defense, but I think he is mostly a decent person.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 12, 2017, 05:38:19 pm
I had the CNN "fake news" line parroted back to me the very same day as Trump's press conference.  The person thought the Russian Intel story was invented by CNN and was all fake news... ignoring the fact that CNN wasn't the first to have the documents, didn't report it first, didn't post the content of the documents, and plainly stated that the content of the dossier was wholly unverified.

CNN:  Intelligence officials have briefed Trump on the contents of an alleged Russian intelligence dossier that contains allegedly unflattering by unverified information on President elect Trump.

Trump supporter:  FAKE NEWS!  Yes, intelligence officials did brief him on the dossier which did contain alleged Russian intelligence bashing Mr. Trump and none of it was verified.  But it's totally FAKE NEWS!

The guy was dead serious.  Wholly failing to understand the difference between A) reporting blatantly false information and trying to pass it off as fact and B) reporting on events that actually happened, documents that actually exist, and things that were actually said and specifically disclaiming the truth of the matter asserted by the actions, contents, or speech.

I then had to explain that difference to him.  That saying "NASA reports North Korea sent a man to Mars," when no such thing has happened is FAKE NEWS.  But reporting "North Korea claims it has put a man on Mars, though there is no evidence to support this and the claim is dismissed by NASA" is not fake news. This was too nuanced, so I had to try again:  Reporting on an statement or event that actually happened is not fake news. 

This failed to convince him.  You see, no one had verified the content of the report, so they were reporting fake news.

While he continued his explanation, I had an internal conversation with myself about whether or not universal suffrage is a good idea.

I do not do well with a lack of facts or logic. When both the facts and logic are mangled, I have a mini strike.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 12, 2017, 10:09:22 pm
Chris Steele, the former MI6 agent behind the Trump/Russia Report is the man who brought down Sepp Blatter and FIFA with a former investigation

http://deadspin.com/the-spy-who-compiled-the-golden-showers-dossier-helped-1791144993


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 12, 2017, 11:51:35 pm
Chris Steele, the former MI6 agent behind the Trump/Russia Report is the man who brought down Sepp Blatter and FIFA with a former investigation

http://deadspin.com/the-spy-who-compiled-the-golden-showers-dossier-helped-1791144993

Meh, he’s a gun for hire and of course MI6 was where the WMD intel in Iraq came from in the first place and we all know how that turned out, right? 

I’ve been suspicious this has been Trump stirring the pot as usual and trying to discredit others in a pre-emptive strike.  But I don’t own tinfoil, honest.

(Total truth here- I know only what I’ve heard on social media and honestly don’t even know what the original story or claim was.  Apparently, I’m doing a great job of avoiding major media outlets lately.)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 13, 2017, 08:45:15 am
Meh, he’s a gun for hire and of course MI6 was where the WMD intel in Iraq came from in the first place and we all know how that turned out, right? 

Exactly.  US intelligence when corroborated by our allies is only right like 99% of the time.  They were wrong this one time...   ;)

Actually, the Iraq WMD thing has turned into a very interesting story (once everyone stopped paying attention).  US intelligence was asked for their best assessment of Iraqi programs, having been locked out of actual inspections for 4 years. So they gave their best assessment with all the facts and disclaimers (including disclaiming any link with Al Qaida and that they had no proof that Saddam actually possessed WMDs).

The intelligence services actual assessment has been released, you can go read it (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-full-version-of-the-cias-2002-intelligence-assessment-on-wmd-in-iraq-2015-3), including draft notes. Page 13 is a summary of findings and confidences.  They were highly confident that Iraq was continuing its WMD program and possessed materials to actually make WMDs, but they disclaim detecting any portions of weapons programs.  They were moderately confident that Iraq did not have nuclear capabilities or the ability to make one.  They had low confidence of when Saddam would use WMDs, could use them against the US homeland, or would share them with Al Qaida. They disclaimed actual proof of WMDs, the existence of the same was mostly by exclusion (we know they did have them, we have no proof they have destroyed them, when we ask for proof of destruction we were kicked out of the country).

The RAND Corporation has a really interesting report on the issue (http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR700/RR768/RAND_RR768.pdf), out of 300+ pages one should at least take away that disclaimers matter.  If you ask an intelligence community for its best assessment, you will get it.  But the disclaimers really matter.  If you sell your case completely ignoring the disclaimers, you do so at your own risk.

Its still not clear to me what happened to the WMDs.  Apparently Saddam actually did destroy them, but was willing to be invaded and ultimately hanged instead of letting UN inspectors verify it?  Lots of lesson to be taken away:  a strong president can lead a nation to war if they want, intelligence assessments are complex documents and details matter, and the ultimate assessment of the intelligence community, politicians, and public opinion can be wrong.



In the present matter, our intelligence service has no comment on the truth of the matter asserted.  They briefed the President and President elect on foreign intelligence rumors, which is standard procedure.  That's a far cry from these allegations being supported or verified by US intelligence. The a US Senator asked FBI director Comey if there was any truth to the matter and his response was simply that the FBI doesn't and never will comment on investigations (unless it involves Hillary Clinton).

And they shouldn't.  If Trump hired a bunch of hookers in Moscow, I'd want our intelligence services to know about it as a possible source of blackmail - but it isn't a crime or  a matter of national security so they should not discuss it with the public.  Same for his business dealings in Russia, as long as they are not contrary to US law, US intelligence has no business making them public.  Now, if Trump lies to Congress about it (a la Bill Clinton), then it becomes a criminal matter.  If trump campaign coordinated with Russia, that could be an issue.  But the tabloid stuff is just noise that comes with being in public office.

This was a project for hire - Russia wanted someone to dig up dirt on Trump so if they actually saw their horse win the race, they'd have blackmail material.  It is reportedly a very common practice in Russia and I assume we contract for similar documents on foreign leaders.  Presumably one would include damaging things that are true, things that *might* be true, and things that you have enough evidence to support the appearance of being true (even if they are false).

Finally...

Trump: Obama is a Kenyan! (proven false, repeats the claim anyway)
Trump: Vaccines cause autism! (thoroughly debunked, repeats the claim anyway)
Trump: Ted  Cruz's father was the second gunman on the grassy knoll! (no basis in reality, repeats the claim anyway)

Trump supporters:  ::crickets::

Actual news sources:  A dossier has been leaked with unconfirmed allegations against Trump. (an event that actually happened)

Trump supporters:  "FAKE NEWS, OMG!!! FAKE!!!!"

This is why we can't have nice things.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 13, 2017, 08:58:49 am
So basically Bush was hosed on the WMD issue because Twitter didn’t exist yet for him to say: “FAKE NEWS! FAKE NEWS!”



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 13, 2017, 09:24:04 am
So basically Bush was hosed on the WMD issue because Twitter didn’t exist yet for him to say: “FAKE NEWS! FAKE NEWS!”

Ha!  I have a good deal of respect for GW. I don't think he would have been a Twitter troll, as evidenced by his good sense and desire to fade away once out of office. Nor do I recall him spreading blatantly fake news (he was later proven wrong, but that's not the same thing).  While I have issues with him - I'm not a Bush hater, never was.

I think by the time the intel report got to GW it basically said enough to support his preconceived notions.  I can't fault him too much for making decisions he did with the info he was presented with.  Not even for the invasion itself (while acknowledging in hindsight it was a huge mistake).  I do place a huge amount of blame on those who planned the aftermath/transition of the invasion... which went about as badly as it possibly could have.  Ultimately, I suppose that is on GW... but I don't dilute myself into thinking the President had knowledge of how to handle a post invasion country or did much by the way of actual planning.

Short answer:  GW acted with the best knowledge he had, and got it wrong.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on January 13, 2017, 12:25:29 pm
I was waiting on the light at 101st and Sheridan and a newer model  dark blue Ford F250 diesel with a lift blew by me on the shoulder on the SE corner.

There was an enormous "TRUMP, make America great again" bumper sticker taking up 1/3 of the back window.

The driver floored the truck turning East.  Black diesel smoke billowed out, the rear tires chirped a bit going around the corner and some trash flew out of the bed of the truck.

This is what has gained control in the federal government.  It will appoint new Scotus, it will make decisions that our kids and grandkids will suffer through.

The United States has been Oklahoma'd.  The people who've been making decisions in Oklahoma's state government now have comrades running the country.

The implications are frightening.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 13, 2017, 12:29:06 pm
I was waiting on the light at 101st and Sheridan and a newer model  dark blue Ford F250 diesel with a lift blew by me on the shoulder on the SE corner.

There was an enormous "TRUMP, make America great again" bumper sticker taking up 1/3 of the back window.

The driver floored the truck turning East.  Black diesel smoke billowed out, the rear tires chirped a bit going around the corner and some trash flew out of the bed of the truck.

This is what has gained control in the federal government.  It will appoint new Scotus, it will make decisions that our kids and grandkids will suffer through.

The United States has been Oklahoma'd.  The people who've been making decisions in Oklahoma's state government now have comrades running the country.

The implications are frightening.

Come on now...

I can find a ton of jack donkey Obama supporters, and even I'm smart enough not to link the two together to imply that is how Obama is going to be.

This line of thinking is just as low brow and childish as the ones you are criticizing displayed.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 13, 2017, 12:53:34 pm



While he continued his explanation, I had an internal conversation with myself about whether or not universal suffrage is a good idea.

I do not do well with a lack of facts or logic. When both the facts and logic are mangled, I have a mini strike.



You have a serious problem - that is what Okrahoma is all about.  Makes ya just wanna shake your head at the stupid.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 13, 2017, 12:55:23 pm
Come on now...

I can find a ton of jack donkey Obama supporters, and even I'm smart enough not to link the two together to imply that is how Obama is going to be.

This line of thinking is just as low brow and childish as the ones you are criticizing displayed.


Actually, you really can't.  Except for being SOOO wrong on the 2nd Amendment, they are universally more educated, well read, thoughtful, tolerant, and open to a wider range of thought and opinions.  In other words - educated.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on January 13, 2017, 01:23:47 pm
I was waiting on the light at 101st and Sheridan and a newer model  dark blue Ford F250 diesel with a lift blew by me on the shoulder on the SE corner.

There was an enormous "TRUMP, make America great again" bumper sticker taking up 1/3 of the back window.

The driver floored the truck turning East.  Black diesel smoke billowed out, the rear tires chirped a bit going around the corner and some trash flew out of the bed of the truck.

This is what has gained control in the federal government.  It will appoint new Scotus, it will make decisions that our kids and grandkids will suffer through.

The United States has been Oklahoma'd.  The people who've been making decisions in Oklahoma's state government now have comrades running the country.

The implications are frightening.
I drive all over South Tulsa daily and the truck you describe is notorious. I have seen him blow through lights, cut people off and drive carelessly. Dark black and tinted windows for the safety a coward needs. Either that or he has clones driving around. That is why most liberals don't put bumper stickers on their cars lest these cowards pester them. And yes, we and Kansas have exported our ignorance to the federal level with the support and rationalization of those whose casual explanation is that "both sides do it!" Right. Then we're headed for hell together hand in hand.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 13, 2017, 02:08:24 pm

Actually, you really can't.  Except for being SOOO wrong on the 2nd Amendment, they are universally more educated, well read, thoughtful, tolerant, and open to a wider range of thought and opinions.  In other words - educated.



Well aren't you all special. You must be the most patronizing person I have ever met. Why don't you add that to the list too, because "they" are incredibly patronizing. And so incredibly sure of their superiority. And they are also incredibly adept at being pompous dicks. Geez, come on.

If you really believe/think this like this, well, I don't know really what to say about that. Thank god we have the chosen one's to show us the light.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 13, 2017, 02:10:04 pm
Well aren't you all special. You must be the most patronizing person I have ever met. Why don't you add that to the list too, because "they" are incredibly patronizing. And so incredibly sure of their superiority. And they are also incredibly adept at being pompous dicks. Geez, come on.

If you really believe/think this like this, well, I don't know really what to say about that. Thank god we have the chosen one's to show us the light.

Well, you all did elect Trump, so there's that....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 13, 2017, 02:23:41 pm
Well, you all did elect Trump, so there's that....

You're right. Not one educated, enlightened person, with kindness in their heart voted for Trump.

You guys will believe anything.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 13, 2017, 04:22:49 pm
You're right. Not one educated, enlightened person, with kindness in their heart voted for Trump.

You guys will believe anything.


There is nothing at all patronizing about stating facts.

No, wait...you are right...it's only educated, enlightened people who claim to be follower's of Christ that vote for an admitted pedophile.  Serial adulterer.  Thief who has stolen untold millions from people who did an honest day's work for him.  Called our POW's cowards.  Ridicules the handicapped.  Serial breaker of Federal immigration law - hiring literally thousands of undocumented workers, and paying millions in fines for that.  Repeatedly makes derisive, racist comments.  Implores supporters to violence.  Invites Russia to hack US government computers.  Can't find an American woman who would marry him....well, I can see why.   And this is just the short list....

Verbally attacks a Gold Star family...!!   Oh, but according to the RWRE, that's fine - it was only a Muslim who was blown up by a car bomb...

Yeah...it's all the good people on the right who voted for that.

Would love to know exactly how it is YOU resolve/rationalize all that in your mind?

As for believing anything... Whew!   Biggest Projection of the Year award goes to erfalf !!






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 13, 2017, 05:11:06 pm

There is nothing at all patronizing about stating facts.

No, wait...you are right...it's only educated, enlightened people who claim to be follower's of Christ that vote for an admitted pedophile.  Serial adulterer.  Thief who has stolen untold millions from people who did an honest day's work for him.  Called our POW's cowards.  Ridicules the handicapped.  Serial breaker of Federal immigration law - hiring literally thousands of undocumented workers, and paying millions in fines for that.  Repeatedly makes derisive, racist comments.  Implores supporters to violence.  Invites Russia to hack US government computers.  Can't find an American woman who would marry him....well, I can see why.   And this is just the short list....

Verbally attacks a Gold Star family...!!   Oh, but according to the RWRE, that's fine - it was only a Muslim who was blown up by a car bomb...

Yeah...it's all the good people on the right who voted for that.

Would love to know exactly how it is YOU resolve/rationalize all that in your mind?

As for believing anything... Whew!   Biggest Projection of the Year award goes to erfalf !!






The ridiculing of the handicapped journalist was the final straw for me, especially since my mother was handicapped and I was a HUGE advocate for rights for them.  If I ever run into Trump anywhere in person it would be difficult for me not to punch him right in the face.  He has a punchable face, much like Martin Shkreli.

And it wasn't the ridiculing that was the final straw.  It was his lying about doing it/not doing it.  He was absolutely mocking that guy.

He's a giant dooshrocket.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 13, 2017, 06:09:41 pm
The ridiculing of the handicapped journalist was the final straw for me, especially since my mother was handicapped and I was a HUGE advocate for rights for them.  If I ever run into Trump anywhere in person it would be difficult for me not to punch him right in the face.  He has a punchable face, much like Martin Shkreli.

And it wasn't the ridiculing that was the final straw.  It was his lying about doing it/not doing it.  He was absolutely mocking that guy.

He's a giant dooshrocket.


And yet his supporters/apologists still dismiss this behavior out of one side of their face while bleating plaintively about their religious beliefs from the other...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 13, 2017, 07:52:50 pm
The ridiculing of the handicapped journalist was the final straw for me, especially since my mother was handicapped and I was a HUGE advocate for rights for them.  If I ever run into Trump anywhere in person it would be difficult for me not to punch him right in the face.  He has a punchable face, much like Martin Shkreli.

And it wasn't the ridiculing that was the final straw.  It was his lying about doing it/not doing it.  He was absolutely mocking that guy.

He's a giant dooshrocket.

It was going back stage at Miss Teen USA to check out naked 15 year old girls and then reading Ivanka's accounts of her violent rape. There is no redeeming the man and the majority of his supporters are deplorable.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on January 13, 2017, 08:38:41 pm
I had the CNN "fake news" line parroted back to me the very same day as Trump's press conference.  The person thought the Russian Intel story was invented by CNN and......

....While he continued his explanation, I had an internal conversation with myself about whether or not universal suffrage is a good idea.

I do not do well with a lack of facts or logic. When both the facts and logic are mangled, I have a mini strike.

I had a guy telling me that facts and opinions are the same things and they're subject to our individual biases. I was gobsmacked.

Universal sufferage, indeed.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 13, 2017, 10:24:01 pm
I had a guy telling me that facts and opinions are the same things and they're subject to our individual biases. I was gobsmacked.

Universal sufferage, indeed.

More like universal stupidity.  What was it Ron White once said?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvQ77JP8nw


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 14, 2017, 10:35:05 am
Meh, he’s a gun for hire and of course MI6 was where the WMD intel in Iraq came from in the first place and we all know how that turned out, right?

Initially, Steele was working on behalf of Trump’s Republican opponents and later for Democrats, but after Election Day, those employers were no longer interested. Instead, Steele began disseminating his findings to both British and American intelligence officials pro bono, as he reasoned that this matter was of national security concern for both parties.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ex-mi6-spy-troubed-findings-trump-worked-free-article-1.2946322



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 14, 2017, 03:47:56 pm
Initially, Steele was working on behalf of Trump’s Republican opponents and later for Democrats, but after Election Day, those employers were no longer interested. Instead, Steele began disseminating his findings to both British and American intelligence officials pro bono, as he reasoned that this matter was of national security concern for both parties cashing in with the sleazy tabloids.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ex-mi6-spy-troubed-findings-trump-worked-free-article-1.2946322



FIFY, because we know what an anachronism strong journalistic integrity is these days.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 14, 2017, 06:10:56 pm
FIFY, because we know what an anachronism strong journalistic integrity is these days.

A man ahead of his time......

(http://www.watchmojo.com/uploads/blipthumbs/Ph_Sf_WilliamHearst_MediaLord_RebeccaB_999.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 15, 2017, 07:26:58 pm
FIFY, because we know what an anachronism strong journalistic integrity is these days.

As an example (excuse the drift) here's how local TV stations reported news of police freaking out when a street person hopped into an undercover cop's car:


TULSA, Oklahoma - Tulsa Police took a suspect in custody in a possible attempted robbery. Officers responded to the QuikTrip at 51st and Harvard around 7:15 p.m. Monday, January 9, 2017.
Officers say a man hopped in the back seat of the detective's blue Ford and said, "take me somewhere." The door was unlocked, according to police.
The officer said the man refused to leave, so he called for backup.
"He told the officer to get out of the vehicle and to take him," said Sergeant C. Hardaway, Tulsa Police. "He said, 'take me, just take me with you.' And the officer felt like he was in fear, and the subject kept pounding his fists and just making like he was going to assault him.

http://www.newson6.com/story/34220677/tulsa-police-suspect-tries-to-rob-detective-in-unmarked-car


Officers responded to the QuikTrip near I-44 and South Harvard around 7:15 p.m. They say Cpl. D. Filak requested assistance over the radio after Anthony Haley opened the unlocked rear driver's side door, got in the backseat and refused commands to get out.
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/man-accused-of-jumping-into-backseat-of-unmarked-tpd-car-in-custody-allegedly-threatened-officer


But you cant beat another station's hysterical "hostage situation"

Man allegedly takes officer hostage
 by: Sara Whaley Updated: Jan 10, 2017 - 6:04 AM
TULSA, Okla. - Quick facts:
    Police arrested a man near the QuikTrip at 51st and Harvard.
    The man reportedly took an officer hostage in his unmarked car.
    He allegedly demanded the officer surrender the car; he was believed to be on PCP



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 15, 2017, 10:35:19 pm
As an example (excuse the drift) here's how local TV stations reported news of police freaking out when a street person hopped into an undercover cop's car:


TULSA, Oklahoma - Tulsa Police took a suspect in custody in a possible attempted robbery. Officers responded to the QuikTrip at 51st and Harvard around 7:15 p.m. Monday, January 9, 2017.
Officers say a man hopped in the back seat of the detective's blue Ford and said, "take me somewhere." The door was unlocked, according to police.
The officer said the man refused to leave, so he called for backup.
"He told the officer to get out of the vehicle and to take him," said Sergeant C. Hardaway, Tulsa Police. "He said, 'take me, just take me with you.' And the officer felt like he was in fear, and the subject kept pounding his fists and just making like he was going to assault him.

http://www.newson6.com/story/34220677/tulsa-police-suspect-tries-to-rob-detective-in-unmarked-car


Officers responded to the QuikTrip near I-44 and South Harvard around 7:15 p.m. They say Cpl. D. Filak requested assistance over the radio after Anthony Haley opened the unlocked rear driver's side door, got in the backseat and refused commands to get out.
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/man-accused-of-jumping-into-backseat-of-unmarked-tpd-car-in-custody-allegedly-threatened-officer


But you cant beat another station's hysterical "hostage situation"

Man allegedly takes officer hostage
 by: Sara Whaley Updated: Jan 10, 2017 - 6:04 AM
TULSA, Okla. - Quick facts:
    Police arrested a man near the QuikTrip at 51st and Harvard.
    The man reportedly took an officer hostage in his unmarked car.
    He allegedly demanded the officer surrender the car; he was believed to be on PCP



What the he!! does any of this have to do with Trump? Your highjacking every thread with your anti-cop diatribes is really tiring . And I say that as something that thinks police in this country are often awful.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 16, 2017, 02:41:10 pm

And yet his supporters/apologists still dismiss this behavior out of one side of their face while bleating plaintively about their religious beliefs from the other...




Not as funny this time but hit the relevant topics:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/donald-trump-press-conference-cold-open/3454408?snl=1




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 16, 2017, 07:16:23 pm
What the he!! does any of this have to do with Trump? Your highjacking every thread with your anti-cop diatribes is really tiring . And I say that as something that thinks police in this country are often awful.
It was very clearly an on-topic response about media intergrity that just happened to involve a police story as an example -- it was handy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 16, 2017, 11:16:54 pm


Not as funny this time but hit the relevant topics:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/donald-trump-press-conference-cold-open/3454408?snl=1






10 minutes dealing with the stupids around me, and I start using the F-bomb like a comma!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on January 20, 2017, 10:57:49 am
Smells like Victory...What a great day.....!!!!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on January 20, 2017, 11:06:23 am
...And I Feel Fiiiine...     (REM, 1987)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 21, 2017, 11:30:07 am
...And I Feel Fiiiine...     (REM, 1987)

Daddy took Smokey's iPhone away.
http://gizmodo.com/national-park-service-banned-from-tweeting-after-anti-t-1791449526

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--zWwMemJc--/ffhzrfihtvotr3kyr3n7.png)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on January 21, 2017, 02:57:34 pm
And now, in the first of what promises to be a long series of lunatic ideas, Newt Gingrich wants to change federal law to allow our new Fuhrer-in-Chief the authority to fire civil servants who voted for Clinton.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/01/19/newt-gingrich-sounds-like-wants-turn-civil-service-back-patronage-system/ (https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/01/19/newt-gingrich-sounds-like-wants-turn-civil-service-back-patronage-system/)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 23, 2017, 08:31:39 am
Professionals are important to run anything.  At the moment, we do not have anyone in charge of the DC National Guard, the Nuclear Safety Commission,  or most of our embassy's.  Luckily, we have professional staff as caretakers.  If all federal jobs were political, even the most basic functions of government wouldn't get done.

Ron Swanson would approve, but practically speaking...nothing good happens.

(this isn't to say firing federal workers, or any worker, for incompetence or malicious intent shouldn't be allowed)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 23, 2017, 09:15:20 am
Daddy took Smokey's iPhone away.
http://gizmodo.com/national-park-service-banned-from-tweeting-after-anti-t-1791449526

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--zWwMemJc--/ffhzrfihtvotr3kyr3n7.png)



Some people have jobs you know.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 23, 2017, 10:19:30 am
Some people have jobs you know.

But I thought that picture on the right was 1.5 million people?

 ???


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: hello on January 23, 2017, 11:08:09 am
Some people have jobs you know.

What?? I thought the economy is so bad 93 million people are out of work.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 23, 2017, 11:49:01 am
What?? I thought the economy is so bad 93 million people are out of work.

I think you missed the joke.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on January 23, 2017, 11:56:22 am
I think you missed the joke.

I guess maybe I did, too?   Was that some vague racially-tinged reference to white folk having to work, and not blacks?  If so,  go get on another forum. There's no place that here, and really not anywhere.   If not, I'm not sure what the joke was supposed to be.

Holding that aside, and getting back specifically to Trump, here's a cut/paste of response I did yesterday on this topic on FB.  It is, I think, more to the issue:
-----------------
This really is a stupid comparison, and would have gone away except for Spicer and Trump. Of course it wasn't larger than Obama's. Obama was the first black president, etc, etc. he brought record crowds. No way Trump, or anyone, would have beat those numbers. A more fair comparison would be to Bush or Clinton, and those were similar. The "controversy" is Trump claiming they were. And it's stupid. There is no reason to try to make this claim except ego. And that's the problem with trump. Forget politics and positions, he can't let go of his ego.
---------------



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 23, 2017, 12:02:28 pm
I guess maybe I did, too?   Was that some vague racially-tinged reference to white folk having to work, and not blacks?  If so,  go get on another forum. There's no place that here, and really not anywhere.   If not, I'm not sure what the joke was supposed to be.

No, just the non-racially "tinged" Obama voters don't work. Geez, always with the knee jerk reactions. You know white people voted for Trump too right. And they actually had the gaul to show their faces at his inauguration, in numbers I would dare to say were greater than any other race present. Math is hard isn't it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 23, 2017, 12:08:52 pm
And for some real perspective, below is an image of Hillary's inaugural address crowd, for comparison...

(http://image.pbs.org/video-assets/pbs/national-mall-americas-front-yard/168445/images/mezzanine_800.jpg.resize.800x450.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on January 23, 2017, 12:20:05 pm
No, just the non-racially "tinged" Obama voters don't work. Geez, always with the knee jerk reactions. You know white people voted for Trump too right. And they actually had the gaul to show their faces at his inauguration, in numbers I would dare to say were greater than any other race present. Math is hard isn't it.


Man, I seriously can't tell if you are intentionally going all "troll-y" on me, or what...

So, I just want to confirm.  You position (even if you caged it in a joke) is that there were more people at Obama's inauguration because a majority of them were black, and a lot of them didn't have jobs anyway, so they had nothing better to do?   And that Trump's voters were mostly white, and so had jobs, and couldn't come?   I just want to make sure I am understanding what your thoughts are here.  I'll let others make their own decisions on their perceptions of you depending on your answer.

And what does Hillary have to do with it?  She didn't win (which is I guess your point), but even if she had, SHE wouldn't have had the same numbers as Obama, either.  She would have been the first woman president, so that would have bumped attendance quite a bit, probably more than Trump's,  but almost certainly would have been less than Obama's.

Again, it's not the actual number.  Trump drew a respectable crowd.  It's his inability to accept they weren't as large as Obama's and not lie about stupid stuff that IS the problem.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 23, 2017, 12:21:48 pm
Man, I seriously can't tell if you are intentionally going all "troll-y" on me, or what...

So, I just want to confirm.  You position (even if you caged it in a joke) is that there were more people at Obama's inauguration because a majority of them were black, and a lot of them didn't have jobs anyway, so they had nothing better to do?   And that Trump's voters were mostly white, and so had jobs, and couldn't come?   I just want to make sure I am understanding what your thoughts are here.  I'll let others make their own decisions on their perceptions of you depending on your answer.

And what does Hillary have to do with it?  She didn't win (which is I guess your point), but even if she had, SHE wouldn't have had the same numbers as Obama, either.  She would have been the first woman president, so that would have bumped attendance quite a bit, probably more than Trump's,  but almost certainly would have been less than Obama's.

Again, it's not the actual number.  Trump drew a respectable crowd.  It's his inability to accept they weren't as large as Obama's and not lie about stupid stuff that IS the problem.




Oh MF, I meant to say white people voted for Obama. Changes the whole context now doesn't it. It was truly meant to be a jab at Obama voters portraying them as little snowflakes that always have time to jet set around to things like that, but can't actually get a job.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on January 23, 2017, 12:36:39 pm
Oh MF, I meant to say white people voted for Obama. Changes the whole context now doesn't it. It was truly meant to be a jab at Obama voters portraying them as little snowflakes that always have time to jet set around to things like that, but can't actually get a job.

Well, that's better.  I was a little worried about you for a bit there...

Obama's numbers aren't hard to figure out.   He came in at an absolute low point, when the economy was tanking and people were looking for a cathartic experience.  And he was the first black president.  Given the history of this country, that was a huge deal.  His performance, or not (depending up a person's political bent), is irrelevant to the numbers at the time.   Trump simply doesn't hold that kind of position.  At worst, he's a buffoon who shouldn't be there, and at best he's a retrenchment back into older ideologies.   Neither is too exciting, and so the lower numbers.  But like Obama, his numbers at the event have virtually nothing to do with how he will do as president.   It's too bad he chose to make an issue of it, as it further hurt is credibility.   



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 23, 2017, 02:03:50 pm
If we are being mean - I thought it was a commentary on Trump supporters being unable to afford travel to Washington, DC.

If we are being obtuse - I thought it was a social commentary on the United States lagging the rest of the world in vacation time.

If we are being serious - the size of the crowd at inauguration is neither important nor surprising:

Of course the crowd was smaller, Trump was sworn in as the least popular president elect in history.  And even then, many of those that still support him do so because they viewed him as the least of two evils.  Finally, Washington, DC has a huge African American population and is surrounded by highly educated affluent suburbs.  Trump did not do well with highly educated people or black people.  So it makes sense on many levels why his crow was smaller.

And it is unimportant because popularity doesn't matter too much once elected. It really doesn't drive policy according to research (money drives policy).  Plus, as stated above, the crowd size in DC might not be indicative of popularity anyway (in this instance, it may have been, but still not that important).

What is important is that the ego of a billionaire, married to a model, who is the most powerful man in the world is so fragile that he cares.  He cares so much he is willing to direct his staff to pretend it was the largest in history.  To actually approach a lectern in front of people who can read or look at photos and just make a blatantly false statement.  He cares so much his staff is still discussing it, tweeting about it, and insisting that the crowd size wasn't small. It's totally huge at least above average!  And his hands are huge.

Honestly - why not just say "I'm happy for all the Americans who were able to attend and I hope they had a great time.  If you say the crowds were smaller than 4 years ago, fine.  I wasn't elected to draw bigger crowds to Washington, DC.  Now do you have any real questions or can I get to work?"



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 23, 2017, 02:32:51 pm
What is important is that the ego of a billionaire, married to a model, who is the most powerful man in the world is so fragile that he cares.  He cares so much he is willing to direct his staff to pretend it was the largest in history.  To actually approach a lectern in front of people who can read or look at photos and just make a blatantly false statement.  He cares so much his staff is still discussing it, tweeting about it, and insisting that the crowd size wasn't small. It's totally huge at least above average!  And his hands are huge.

Maybe its more about having his staff lie about things not worth lying about. 
Directing a former journalist to unconvincingly parrot an ego stroke is a move from fantasy to policy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 24, 2017, 01:46:36 pm
So, the inauguration is over, we need to be over it as well.

Trump has signed executive orders to revive the Keystone XL Pipeline and Dakota Access pipelines.  Obama sitting on the issue for several years before finally giving it the axe in 2015 seemed more to me like someone trying to figure out the political winds than someone with a real conviction on the issue.

We are nowhere close to being free of dependence on oil and oil products and are decades away from that regardless of which party holds the White House so there has to be safe methods to deliver oil to refiners and their final markets.

The other option seems to be truck or rail car to transport oil and that has vastly greater risks associated with it if you look up rail accident statistics and highway accident stats.  There are 1500 to 1800 rail incidents a year ranging from crossing collisions to derailments.  I honestly thought derailments were a rare occurrence until I had lunch with an old acquaintance a week or so back whose job it is to coordinate crews to clean up derailed trains.  It’s virtually a daily occurrence somewhere in the United States.

I certainly do have reservations about pipelines crossing significant wetlands and wildlife areas and imminent domain so there is a serious trade off to consider.  Yes pipeline construction creates temporary jobs like any other infrastructure project and the kind of numbers they were claiming for permanent employment courtesy of the Keystone XL were very over-blown.

Discuss.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 24, 2017, 02:00:28 pm
So, the inauguration is over, we need to be over it as well.

Trump has signed executive orders to revive the Keystone XL Pipeline and Dakota Access pipelines.  Obama sitting on the issue for several years before finally giving it the axe in 2015 seemed more to me like someone trying to figure out the political winds than someone with a real conviction on the issue.

We are nowhere close to being free of dependence on oil and oil products and are decades away from that regardless of which party holds the White House so there has to be safe methods to deliver oil to refiners and their final markets.

The other option seems to be truck or rail car to transport oil and that has vastly greater risks associated with it if you look up rail accident statistics and highway accident stats.  There are 1500 to 1800 rail incidents a year ranging from crossing collisions to derailments.  I honestly thought derailments were a rare occurrence until I had lunch with an old acquaintance a week or so back whose job it is to coordinate crews to clean up derailed trains.  It’s virtually a daily occurrence somewhere in the United States.

I certainly do have reservations about pipelines crossing significant wetlands and wildlife areas and imminent domain so there is a serious trade off to consider.  Yes pipeline construction creates temporary jobs like any other infrastructure project and the kind of numbers they were claiming for permanent employment courtesy of the Keystone XL were very over-blown.

Discuss.

The Keystone XL pipeline does nothing for American oil or oil dependence. That pipeline is intended to take oil from the tar sands in Canada to the gulf for foreign export. By easing the export of Canadian oil that pipeline could actually have the impact of increasing domestic oil and gas prices.

The tribes in the DAPL protests aren’t trying to block the pipeline, just reroute it, what has been done repeatedly before but ETE is refusing to do now. Yes, that ETE. And Trump himself was an investor in the DAPL pipeline.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on January 24, 2017, 02:40:47 pm
Also, I want to know if the existing pipelines are already at max capacity.   The Green route is the one that is still proposed.  The other route already exists.  Is that route full?   And then everything merges at Steele City, so I guess that means we have capacity from there to Houston/Port Arthur?  If we don't need it, don't build it.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Keystone-pipeline-route.png)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 24, 2017, 02:49:05 pm
The Trump Administration has placed gag orders on the Department of Agriculture, the EPA and The National Institute of Health among others. No press releases, no publications of scientific findings, no blog posts, no social media or speaking engagements. All EPA contracts are frozen.

Trump wants the ability to review science before it’s shared, and if it’s to be shared and we know about his lack of relationship to the truth and facts if he doesn’t like them.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/24/14372940/trump-gag-order-epa-environmental-protection-agency-health-agriculture


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 24, 2017, 09:51:57 pm
The Trump Administration has placed gag orders on the Department of Agriculture, the EPA and The National Institute of Health among others. No press releases, no publications of scientific findings, no blog posts, no social media or speaking engagements. All EPA contracts are frozen.

Trump wants the ability to review science before it’s shared, and if it’s to be shared and we know about his lack of relationship to the truth and facts if he doesn’t like them.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/24/14372940/trump-gag-order-epa-environmental-protection-agency-health-agriculture


I don't recall, did he promise transparency during his campaign?  That's pretty opaque if he did.

I had questioned a friend about the holds being placed on contract awards at the EPA, but apparently that is not terribly unusual when a new administration comes in for contracts, hiring, etc. to be put on hold.

Editing reality by an administration is nothing new.

Now, a new admin changing reality might be a different issue.    ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on January 25, 2017, 07:26:50 am
The Trump Administration has placed gag orders on the Department of Agriculture, the EPA and The National Institute of Health among others. No press releases, no publications of scientific findings, no blog posts, no social media or speaking engagements. All EPA contracts are frozen.

Trump wants the ability to review science before it’s shared, and if it’s to be shared and we know about his lack of relationship to the truth and facts if he doesn’t like them.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/24/14372940/trump-gag-order-epa-environmental-protection-agency-health-agriculture


I would agree that this seems like a bit of a non-starter for the time being. He did put a hiring freeze on all non-essential personnel, which this certainly falls under. Seems pretty rational at the moment with a little flair added by Swake.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 25, 2017, 09:27:36 am
I would agree that this seems like a bit of a non-starter for the time being. He did put a hiring freeze on all non-essential personnel, which this certainly falls under. Seems pretty rational at the moment with a little flair added by Swake.

No, a gag order is not normal and may not even be legal and is at least against policy as stated today

http://mashable.com/2017/01/24/trump-administration-gag-order-epa-usda/#uehquaPaCiqC



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 25, 2017, 10:30:13 am
No, a gag order is not normal and may not even be legal and is at least against policy as stated today

http://mashable.com/2017/01/24/trump-administration-gag-order-epa-usda/#uehquaPaCiqC


The latest from Il duche:

Trump Poised to Lift Ban on C.I.A. ‘Black Site’ Prisons
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/cia-detainee-prisons.html

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is preparing a sweeping executive order that would clear the way for the C.I.A. to reopen overseas “black site” prisons, like those where it detained and tortured terrorism suspects before former President Barack Obama shut them down.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on January 25, 2017, 06:49:55 pm
Just stopping in to drop this off. Some posters are in REAL need of help, and its only been 5 days into Trump's first term (https://pics.onsizzle.com/industrial-strength-butthurt-relief-stabilized-aloe-vera-gel-doctor-recommended-6478858.png)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 25, 2017, 08:24:17 pm
Just stopping in to drop this off. Some posters are in REAL need of help, and its only been 5 days into Trump's first term (https://pics.onsizzle.com/industrial-strength-butthurt-relief-stabilized-aloe-vera-gel-doctor-recommended-6478858.png)

Sounds like the new resident of WH could use it instead.

https://apnews.com/61415760238042f2ad7bc38acc2f468c


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 25, 2017, 08:55:40 pm
Hey, remember when Trump called Clinton the biggest security threat in American history? With chants of "lock her up" over her using a private email server?

Yeah, about that....

Does everyone also remember the Bush White House using a RNC owned private email server and losing 22 million emails? Yeah, but that was a long time ago, right?

Not so much, now the Trump White House is using that SAME RNC SERVER. Four days in and they are already using a private email server.

Lock him up?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-emails-rnc-reince-priebus-white-house-server-548191


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on January 26, 2017, 12:33:19 am
Sounds like the new resident of WH could use it instead.

https://apnews.com/61415760238042f2ad7bc38acc2f468c

Still only have the "I'm rubber, you're glue" comebacks. Don't go changin.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on January 26, 2017, 12:35:14 am
Hey, remember when Trump called Clinton the biggest security threat in American history? With chants of "lock her up" over her using a private email server?

Yeah, about that....


http://www.newsweek.com/trump-emails-rnc-reince-priebus-white-house-server-548191
Well of course his staffers have these email accounts. How else can Trump secretly communicate with his Russian overlords?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 26, 2017, 12:41:27 am
Well, well...

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/25/agriculture-department-lifts-usda-gag-order-after-public-outcry/

Now, to be fair to President Snowflake, he didn't order this gag order.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 26, 2017, 08:14:41 am
Well of course his staffers have these email accounts. How else can Trump secretly communicate with his Russian overlords?

Good to have you back!

I mean, you're horribly wrong.  But opposition is a good thing.  :D

- - -

Our new national priorities:

1) Proving that the inauguration crowd was the bestest ever!

2) Making sure scientific data passes through the political officers at the Kremlin before being released.  No, dang it, I mean passes through the office of the Grand Ayatollah.   Ahh!  Wrong again.  Making sure scientific data passes through Trump's office and passes political muster before being released, because science!

3) Finding a way to reinstate black site prisons and torture, which his military advisers, CIA chief, and Defense Secretary all acknowledge isn't useful, because Freedom!

4) Spending tens of billions in money we don't have on a wall that experts say won't stop Mexican immigration (which is a net zero anyway), because populism!

5) De-funding the arts, saving over 0.0015% of the Federal Budget annually, because fiscally conservative!

6) Investigating the conspiracy theory that massive voter fraud made it look like President Trump lost the popular vote by 3,000,000 people.  Step 1:  find any indication that it might have happened.  Step 2:  try to find any evidence that it might have happened, Step 3: Run data through the political data filter. Because ego!

7) Have the Federal Government pick winners and losers in the free market by mandating protectionists quotas (though shalt use X product made in the USA to do Y), because small government and free markets!

8) Control as much of the communication with the public as possible, because transparency!

9) Repeal a law that by objective measures has done everything Republicans wanted it to do (before it was passed by Democrats, the ACA was basically the Republican plan).  Insure an extra 20 million Americans.  Slow the rising cost of healthcare.  Release more information so consumers can make better health choices. Reduce the number of uninsured. Reduce readmission and complication rates. Save the Federal Government $100,000,000,000.00 per year in net.

What? It helps people afford healthcare, improves the quality, slows the cost growth, releases more information, and saves us money --- KILL IT! Kill it with fire!  

Finally release that "better" replacement you've been working on for 8 years, because I've said it sucks so now I have to stick to it in spite of any evidence to the contrary!

10) Support legislation to specifically allow discrimination against a minority segment of the US population (the first of its kind in the US since the civil war - making American Great Again!), because of the gay agenda!

11) Hand control of international trade in the Pacific over to China, because they took our jobs!

12) Coerce local States into doing the Federal Government's job of enforcing immigration law, because States rights and small government!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 26, 2017, 09:40:18 am
Read the whole transcript of his ABC interview.

Trump is mentally ill, no joke, he really is. This is scary stuff.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/transcript-abc-news-anchor-david-muir-interviews-president/story?id=45047602


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 26, 2017, 09:53:02 am
Read the whole transcript of his ABC interview.

Trump is mentally ill, no joke, he really is. This is scary stuff.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/transcript-abc-news-anchor-david-muir-interviews-president/story?id=45047602

And then of course, he cites a 'conversation' he had with Bernhard Langer regarding his frustration about being not allowed to vote at a polling place in Florida while other people whom he claims Langer said didn't appear that should be able to vote were being allowed to.

One problem with that.  Langer is a German citizen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/trump-bernhard-langer-voting-fraud.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 26, 2017, 10:33:39 am
Hey, remember when Trump called Clinton the biggest security threat in American history? With chants of "lock her up" over her using a private email server?

Yeah, about that....

Does everyone also remember the Bush White House using a RNC owned private email server and losing 22 million emails? Yeah, but that was a long time ago, right?

Not so much, now the Trump White House is using that SAME RNC SERVER. Four days in and they are already using a private email server.


...and still using his unsecured smartphone

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316099-trump-still-uses-unsecured-android-phone

to parrot what he sees on Fox News.

   14 minutes apart: Fox says "ungrateful traitor," Trump says "ungrateful traitor," Fox says "weak leader," Trump says "weak leader." pic.twitter.com/f7urTOUG1L
    — Brian Stelter (@brianstelter) January 26, 2017

This wouldn't be the first time that Trump's tweets correlate with Fox News segments. As BuzzFeed's Brandon Wall pointed out earlier this week, a recent tweet about violence in Chicago may also have been inspired by a segment on the O'Reilly Factor.


http://www.npr.org/2017/01/26/511781106/trump-chelsea-manning-an-ungrateful-traitor-for-criticizing-obama



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 26, 2017, 03:13:55 pm
The Golden Shower President just started trade war with our 3rd largest trading partner. Outstanding. He's going to charge a 20% tariff on imports from Mexico.

The math here doesn’t even make sense. We import $294 billion worth of goods from Mexico a year, 20% of that would be $60 billion, in one year. And let’s be clear, that’s money that would be paid by American consumers, not Mexicans, with increased prices on imported food, liquor, cars and more. Trump just raised taxes on Americans, not Mexicans.

It also puts at risk $240 billion in exports to Mexico when they respond with their own tariffs.  That’s putting hundreds of thousands of American jobs at risk. It also puts the Mexican economy at risk which will drive UP illegal immigration. Unbelievable.

Prices up for American consumers, jobs at risk, more illegal immigration. We have a moronic toddler in the White House who is upset the Mexican President canceled his trip and snubbed Trumpy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on January 26, 2017, 04:07:12 pm
So here is a question.  We have a $60 billion trade deficit with Mexico.  Our economy is 15x larger than Mexico's and we have about 3 x the people.  How will they match us?  Also, it was also stated they want the same 20% to every country at a later date.  I'm not sure what our agreements are with the rest of the world.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 26, 2017, 09:18:47 pm
Meanwhile here in the real world not the theoretical one:

We are seeing a large uptick in business at my day job.  We are used to a cycle every four years prior to the November elections where business slows down and doesn't pick back up until near or after inauguration day.  It does not really  matter which party is in power, it's just a fact of life in the steam and hot water business and other industries.  That was no different this year.

Regardless of the economy, there's always a need for steam and hot water.  When the general economy is down companies tend to fix what they have or only replace equipment in an emergency.  However, when the economic outlook is good or there is great optimism for the next few years, companies turn loose with new capital spending.  That is what has suddenly happened the last two weeks.

Some of these inquiries and orders are from the terminal and transportation business (think rail and barge), some are oil related, some are food industry, a couple of breweries (I'd expect growth there regardless) and one from a government entity which I was not expecting to see as I think many government agencies are taking a wait-see approach to see what cuts may be coming to their budgets with a promise to shrink government spending.  In particular companies seem to be looking to add capacity anticipating an uptick in business or an uptick in revenue which will pay for upgrading older equipment.  There are also a couple of well-funded new start ups.

These customers, with the exceptions of the new start ups, are all talking about an increase in workflow and orders themselves.  Our vendors are reporting the same.

There certainly has been no time for President Trump's new policies to actually take effect.  However, if corporate management and company owners believe government leadership is friendly to business, they are generally optimistic about the future of the economy and their business.     

It's not just there, we've seen a huge upswing in the online business my wife and I own dealing in vintage motorcycle parts.  55% over this time last year.  Part of that I can attribute to more offerings (about 33% more items now listed on line) so that leaves about 22% in a business uptick I cannot explain in any other way.  I believe this growth is more a symptom of an economy which has done fairly well over the last year.  I'm sure there are some people who have been sitting on their savings who might feel more confident about their job situation with so much optimism in the economy.

I haven't done an analysis to see if our ratio of domestic orders vs. global is up. That would tend to say something is up specifically with optimism in the U.S. economy if that ratio has become skewed more in favor of domestic orders.

As far as our B & B in New Mexico, I would expect it will do well regardless of who is sitting in the White House.  Even in a slumping economy, a business like that can prosper if you are good at marketing and you develop a good following or have a great travel destination.

I've always had the attitude that if you believe the economy sucks, your personal fortunes will soon follow suit.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TheArtist on January 27, 2017, 08:05:48 am
Per the economy.  I think we are all aware that this year was likely going to be a good year as the slow steady uptick over the last 6 continues its trajectory and gains its footing.  (all of this baring something disastrous or disastrously stupid happening) I suspect that Trump will also be able to squeeze out a little additional boost to the economy by scaring some corporations into making a different calculation and making more things here, increasing some federal spending right off the bat, and perhaps tweak out some advantages around the edges of trade policies.  China seems to be going in for a soft landing and maturing its economy (though weaknesses remain) and the EU is also seeing signs of at least steadiness over all.  

Current predictions.  This year good, next year good or better, third year shaky, fourth year "artificially propped up but the underlying conditions scary".  The world is only going to become more competitive and richer (making us more "average" and less influential) and our debt and deficits on top of that will begin to really haunt us after the next 4 and in 8 could bring us to our knees as we start to run out of options, the corporations and money start to see that and start fleeing for other parts of the world like rats from a sinking ship.


Per Oklahoma,  I see continued problems.

 However Tulsa could "break away" from that general malaise. (Face it people oil is not going up much unless we have a war or something, renewables are already competitive and there are advances and investments in the pipeline that will make them twice as cheap and twice as efficient as they are now. Plus allowing the pipelines, more drilling, less regulations, etc. will help to keep those resources cheap so no price boost there, the oil guys were only bitching about Obama and his policies because it gave them a convenient scapegoat to blame their woes on, knowing all the while the game is over. Same thing with coal. ) But again per Tulsa, things like the park will give us something to show off and feel proud about, which believe it or not can help attract bright people and businesses.  The continued revival of downtown will help the city look more attractive and vibrant. (Still get way to many frustrated people asking me "Where are all the people?" and "I have never seen a downtown so dead!" comments. But the trajectory is upwards.)  We have just got to really promote the dickens out of ourselves while things are turning our way to get some population/business growth rolling along.  Some good old fashioned "boosterism" can go along way in the next 3 years.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 27, 2017, 09:42:15 am
There is no doubt the economy is doing well.  In the last 8 years we added as many as 16 million jobs. In the last few years we have hit full employment and seen real wages grow.  There is a lag for normal Americans to dig themselves out of the hole the Great Recession put them in, and for them to regain confidence.

Also - business hates uncertainty.  There were numerous projects on hold until the election cycled through. Business now has a decent guess of what to plan for. 

As long as Trump doesn't actually start trade wars the real economy should continue to do well for a good while.  There is a lot of growth in real wages to make up over the last ~16 years of slow or even negative wage growth.  Trump's saber rattling could make outsourcing too risking, which could help wage growth. But an actual trade war would hurt American companies as much as Mexican ones (American companies are manufacturing in Mexico in the hopes of profiting, they can't just walk away from a $2bil plant) and American consumers would be the ones paying higher prices. The "winner" of a trade war still lost a ton of money.

Now, the stock market itself is probably too high (the PEs are getting back to bust levels).  Home prices in some markets are also getting to unsustainable levels again (as a % of household income).  It seems likely that a correction on those fronts is likely.

Longer term - income inequality remains a real threat to the economy.   70% of Americans don't have enough savings to make next months rent payment.  85% have less than $10k in total savings.   That's not NET of debt, that's cash on hand.  Retirement savings is just as bad. Tax proposals would result in large tax savings for the wealthiest, tiny for the lowest (think $20), and a small increase for the middle class isn't going to help the situation.  Killing education funding isn't going to help. And on and on and on.  With < 5% unemployment, bringing jobs back from Mexico isn't a solution either.

Corporate profits are up, incomes for the top 20% have grown well, incomes for the bottom 70% are just starting to beat inflation. No one believes the problem with America's economy is that millionaires are struggling to buy that new Porche and that second vacation home.  Trump and the Republicans are in complete control, they need to figure out how to address the long term shrinking middle class - they don't have the excuse that they were focused on filling in a huge hole.  That's been done.

Probably the best possible situation right now is for Congress to turn on Trump as soon as possible and lets get back to gridlock.  The economy recovered well with the last 5 years of gridlock.   When those asshats in Washington get nothing done, we all win.  ;)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on January 27, 2017, 10:17:15 am
I hear a lot of talk of a recession coming up.  I think the proposed infrastructure spending plans could probably stave it off a few years. There are already Mexican boycotts of US companies. I think they backed off the 20% tax claim for all countries with a trade defecit (Mainly Mexico and China). But it seems like anything Trump has said he was going to do he is pushing for.  I think we will see it pop up in the future again.  Overall it will be a short term boon and then a huge bust if it happens.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TheArtist on January 27, 2017, 10:24:47 am
I suppose I should have clarified one thing.  My "good economy" pretty much means what we have had lately.  Not what we have historically called "good".

There is going to have to be a huge cultural shift in our country, and it can either be really great, or devastating.  It just occurred to me that in some ways Russia is the "poor angry white rust belt citizen" of the world, who does not want to change and move into the future but is clinging to an old economy and ideology.  We have to embrace and take advantage of the new technologies and society that is coming our way.

On a similar note, I was listening to a psychologist talk about how to deal with a narcissist. She said basically you can't fight them or beat them at their own game, and they have yet figured out a way to really help them.  But she did say something quite interesting.  She said they find and point out your weaknesses. They can use this to destroy and defeat you,,,,, or if you are able to step back and away from them, you learn and grow from what they find. Their intent is the former, to hurt or defeat and mold you into a part of themselves, but you can think of them as she said as a sort of "angel" in disguise from which you can learn and grow.  But you have to keep yourself disengaged from them, separate from them, you can't let them suck you into their world. Trump may be like that.  He will find and use our societies greatest weaknesses and faults, its up to us to figure out how to not let it destroy us, but to instead use the pain to recognize and figure out what our weaknesses are and grow from that. Once you do that, you automatically become free from the narcissist.  

Yes she seems a little "hippy dippy" and uses some of that "touchy feely" language, but she does get to some points a lot of other psychologist say on the topic.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRWbonFA5sU


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 27, 2017, 10:40:53 am
I found this to be terrifying:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/gaslighting-know-it-and-identify-it-protect-yourself

A psychological profile of gas lighting.  It is not directed at Trump, just good/bad timing I guess.  I implore you to read it, and see how many boxes our new leader checks off.  Argue with psychologists if you want, but wow...

Quote
Gaslighting is a tactic of behavior in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality.  It works a lot better than you may think.  Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting.  It is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders

The article lists the common tactics and explains each of them:

1. They tell you blatant lies.
2.  They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
3.  They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
4.  They wear you down over time.
5. Their actions do not match their words.
6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
7.  They know confusion weakens people.
8.  They project.
9.  They try to align people against you.
10.  They tell you or others that you are crazy.
11.  They tell you everyone else is a liar.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on January 27, 2017, 12:12:44 pm
We are seeing a large uptick in business at my day job.  We are used to a cycle every four years prior to the November elections where business slows down and doesn't pick back up until near or after inauguration day.  It does not really  matter which party is in power, it's just a fact of life in the steam and hot water business and other industries.  That was no different this year.

Regardless of the economy, there's always a need for steam and hot water.  When the general economy is down companies tend to fix what they have or only replace equipment in an emergency.  However, when the economic outlook is good or there is great optimism for the next few years, companies turn loose with new capital spending.  That is what has suddenly happened the last two weeks.

Some of these inquiries and orders are from the terminal and transportation business (think rail and barge), some are oil related, some are food industry, a couple of breweries (I'd expect growth there regardless) and one from a government entity which I was not expecting to see as I think many government agencies are taking a wait-see approach to see what cuts may be coming to their budgets with a promise to shrink government spending.  In particular companies seem to be looking to add capacity anticipating an uptick in business or an uptick in revenue which will pay for upgrading older equipment.  There are also a couple of well-funded new start ups.

These customers, with the exceptions of the new start ups, are all talking about an increase in workflow and orders themselves.  Our vendors are reporting the same.

There certainly has been no time for President Trump's new policies to actually take effect.  However, if corporate management and company owners believe government leadership is friendly to business, they are generally optimistic about the future of the economy and their business.     

It's not just there, we've seen a huge upswing in the online business my wife and I own dealing in vintage motorcycle parts.  55% over this time last year.  Part of that I can attribute to more offerings (about 33% more items now listed on line) so that leaves about 22% in a business uptick I cannot explain in any other way.  I believe this growth is more a symptom of an economy which has done fairly well over the last year.  I'm sure there are some people who have been sitting on their savings who might feel more confident about their job situation with so much optimism in the economy.

I haven't done an analysis to see if our ratio of domestic orders vs. global is up. That would tend to say something is up specifically with optimism in the U.S. economy if that ratio has become skewed more in favor of domestic orders.



I'd also consider that these entities making the orders may be worried that interstate commerce and travel may become more difficult.  (In German accent..."Let me see your papers")


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on January 27, 2017, 06:05:34 pm
I'd also consider that these entities making the orders may be worried that interstate commerce and travel may become more difficult.  (In German accent..."Let me see your papers")

http://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/german-word-ihre_papiere_bitte.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 28, 2017, 03:27:18 pm
There have been at most 13 terrorist Radical Islamic inspired attacks since 9/1 in the US. At least three of those had mentally ill attackers and that may have had more to do with the attack than Islam, but let's go with 13.

16 total people took part in those 13 attacks.
13 of 16 were US Citizens, 7 of which were born in the United States.
3 were non-citizens, two of which were refugees, one from Egypt and one from Somalia, the Somali attack resulted in no deaths.

Of the 8 that were not born in the US only the Somali and an Iranian were from a country on Trump's list of banned countries. The Iranian had been the US since he was an infant and was a US Citizen.

Country of birth of Radical Islamic Terrorist Attackers including 9/11:
Saudi Arabia - 15
United States - 7
Egypt - 2
United Arab Emirates - 2
Russia - 2
Iran - 1
Lebanon - 1
Kuwait - 1
Pakistan - 1
Afghanistan - 1
Kenya - 1
Somalia - 1

Countries that Trump wants to ban immigrants from (with number of attackers INCLUDING 9/11):
Syria - 0
Iraq - 0
Iran - 1
Libya - 0
Somalia - 1
Sudan - 0
Yeman - 0

He's even denying Green Card holders from these countries from reentering. People that have in some cases been here decades.

What do the countries that he's left off the list have in common? He has business interests there. He's denying war victims, breaking up families and doing it all for show, not really to protect anyone. This isn't just words now, these are real actions impacting people.

Anyone going to defend the Racist Rapist in Chief now?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 28, 2017, 07:51:51 pm
“Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TeeDub on January 29, 2017, 12:23:15 am
Not to disrupt a hate on Trump festival, but you do realize the order he signed doesn't even mention Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen?

The CNN piece I linked to hints to that fact...

The order bars all people hailing from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. Those countries were named in a 2016 law concerning immigration visas as "countries of concern."

So much for real news.



Feel free to read it yourselves.Here is a CNN link.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executive-order-nation-ban-refugees/



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 29, 2017, 08:12:56 am
Not to disrupt a hate on Trump festival, but you do realize the order he signed doesn't even mention Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen?

The CNN piece I linked to hints to that fact...

The order bars all people hailing from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. Those countries were named in a 2016 law concerning immigration visas as "countries of concern."

So much for real news.



Feel free to read it yourselves.Here is a CNN link.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executive-order-nation-ban-refugees/



Why would anyone care about facts?  Innuendo and hysteria seems to be the order of the day.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on January 29, 2017, 08:44:46 am
trump set the environment for innuendo, alternate facts, outright lies and hysteria. Not surprising that it will become the pond we fish in.

On a more sobering thought for education in OK, we derive a lot of income from Muslim countries as they send their children to study at our schools and Universities. TU particularly benefits from petroleum students as well as the surrounding community. Nationally it is a 34 billion dollar loss should they feel it is unsafe or unwelcome to do so. Especially if their travel is problematic. They may leave freshmen to finish out a degree but if the choke on Muslims continues within 4 years private universities may start to choke as well.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: ZYX on January 29, 2017, 09:54:51 am
Why would anyone care about facts?  Innuendo and hysteria seems to be the order of the day.

I believe the reaction we have seen is quite warranted when people that have built their lives in the United States and been here for some time are suddenly barred from entry.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TeeDub on January 29, 2017, 10:38:07 am
I believe the reaction we have seen is quite warranted when people that have built their lives in the United States and been here for some time are suddenly barred from entry.

Ignore the fact that prior presidents have done exactly the same thing....   


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on January 29, 2017, 12:23:03 pm
trump set the environment for innuendo, alternate facts, outright lies and hysteria. Not surprising that it will become the pond we fish in.

On a more sobering thought for education in OK, we derive a lot of income from Muslim countries as they send their children to study at our schools and Universities. TU particularly benefits from petroleum students as well as the surrounding community. Nationally it is a 34 billion dollar loss should they feel it is unsafe or unwelcome to do so. Especially if their travel is problematic. They may leave freshmen to finish out a degree but if the choke on Muslims continues within 4 years private universities may start to choke as well.

Anticipating a $34 billion loss to our economy is nothing but speculation at this point. 

I've read nowhere this is a long-term ban.  IIRC, the idea was to put a moratorium on immigration from certain countries until our vetting process could be reviewed which was anticipated to be 30-90 days.

Meanwhile, no one called Obama a hater or racist while deportations and detentions were up under his administration.  This managed to go mostly unnoticed by protesters in the streets or either it represents a double-standard.

I still can't stand Trump but at least I'm willing to view his actions with an objective eye.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on January 29, 2017, 12:40:41 pm
Anticipating a $34 billion loss to our economy is nothing but speculation at this point. 

I've read nowhere this is a long-term ban.  IIRC, the idea was to put a moratorium on immigration from certain countries until our vetting process could be reviewed which was anticipated to be 30-90 days.

Meanwhile, no one called Obama a hater or racist while deportations and detentions were up under his administration.  This managed to go mostly unnoticed by protesters in the streets or either it represents a double-standard.

I still can't stand Trump but at least I'm willing to view his actions with an objective eye.

Then why are many in his own party calling him out?

https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/825463554937585665

https://medium.com/@JeffFlake/president-trump-and-his-administration-are-right-to-be-concerned-about-national-security-but-its-ebc9d0f71c45#.1sc4xb7g6

http://www.sasse.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2017/1/sasse-statement-on-border-security-and-muslim-nations

These are just three examples.  The problem is that it appears alot of this is being done to benefit his business interests.  Look at the countries he is banning.  Not one of them has an issue with killing via terrorism.  Saudi Arabia however...

And then there's also this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-syria-lebanon-idUSKBN15D0R3

Now, check off how many of these apply and tell me you're not even a little concerned.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 29, 2017, 12:59:51 pm
Not to disrupt a hate on Trump festival, but you do realize the order he signed doesn't even mention Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen?

The CNN piece I linked to hints to that fact...

The order bars all people hailing from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. Those countries were named in a 2016 law concerning immigration visas as "countries of concern."

So much for real news.



Feel free to read it yourselves.Here is a CNN link.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/text-of-trump-executive-order-nation-ban-refugees/


Who chose what list to exclude? Just because the list of countries that are impacted by the order is external to the order itself doesn't change the intent and impact of the order.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 29, 2017, 01:14:31 pm

According to Reince Priebus it's congress' list:
Quote
"Perhaps other countries needed to be added to an executive order going forward — but in order to do this in a way that was expeditious, in a way that would pass muster quickly, we used the 7 countries" already identified by Congress, he said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/priebus-immigration-order-doesn-t-include-green-card-holders-anyone-n713731


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 29, 2017, 05:12:37 pm
I found this to be terrifying:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/gaslighting-know-it-and-identify-it-protect-yourself

A psychological profile of gas lighting.  It is not directed at Trump, just good/bad timing I guess.  I implore you to read it, and see how many boxes our new leader checks off.  Argue with psychologists if you want, but wow...

The article lists the common tactics and explains each of them:

1. They tell you blatant lies.
2.  They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
3.  They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
4.  They wear you down over time.
5. Their actions do not match their words.
6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
7.  They know confusion weakens people.
8.  They project.
9.  They try to align people against you.
10.  They tell you or others that you are crazy.
11.  They tell you everyone else is a liar.





Hijacked Republican Party since the 70's.   Eisenhower tried to warn us, but we didn't pay any attention.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 30, 2017, 08:37:56 am
Meanwhile, no one called Obama a hater or racist while deportations and detentions were up under his administration.  This managed to go mostly unnoticed by protesters in the streets or either it represents a double-standard.

Exactly!  And that could be because he was concentrating his deportation efforts on criminals while going out of his way for children of immigrants who have known no home by the US.  And in doing that, he still managed to deport more people in the US illegally than anyone else.  So maybe it isn't the deportations or excluding people that is causing concern.

Sadly, the ban is a knee jerk reaction to an emergency that doesn't exist.  Trump did not consult people who actually understand how the immigration system works, instead he made a purely political decision and put it into action purely with his political team. The same way Chavez made economic policy.  And with the same mass unintended consequences.

Obama excluded Iraqi immigrants when an actual problem was identified that allowed several undesirable people to slip through. Everyone had to be re-vetted to make sure that whole was plugged and new applications were frozen until the existing pool was cleared.  No great outcry, because it was done for an actual reason and wasn't in a fake fear induced panic.

Rather we set up a situation where engineers who have studied and lived in the US for over a decade working for the most advanced companies in the world (Boeing, Intel, SpaceX) who were overseas for work and now can't come back to the US for an undetermined period of time because they are from a "suspect country." Students, college professors, and researchers.  Where women and children who have been vetted by a dozen agencies over 4 years can't come because we are afraid of them. 

Immigration/refugee quotas isn't the issue.  Exclude Mexicans.  Cut the number of refugees we allow in.  You won, you get to do that.  But lets do it in an orderly fashion that doesn't make us look like panicked children afraid of tragic yet remote possibilities.  Team Trump hasn't come up with a plan to "fix" the system, because no one can point out what isn't working to begin with.

The desire to exclude the tired, poor and huddled masses is an entirely different issue.  By all means, tell me you can't bake a cake for the gays while pounding your bible and then quietly set that book down and tell me how taking care of the downtrodden isn't our problem.  Theocracy isn't so popular when it requires action that you don't personally like.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 08:50:33 am
The Iraqi parliament has now voted to ask the Iraqi government to reciprocally ban Americans from entering Iraq and to expel Americans already there including US troops. If such a ban is implemented it would deal a devastating blow to US efforts to fight ISIS.

So much for “keeping us safe”. Part of the last two administrations plan was to fight terrorists in other countries to keep us from having to fight them here. The ban is damaging those efforts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-donald-trump-parliament-committee-immigrant-muslim-travel-ban-reciprocal-americans-us-a7552546.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 08:58:13 am
More than 1.25 million people in the UK have signed a government petition to have Trump’s state visit to the UK canceled. Petitions with more than 100,000 signatures are debated in Parliament.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/30/anti-trump-petition-to-prevent-uk-state-visit-passes-1m-signatures


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 09:06:25 am
Fresh fighting has broken out this weekend in Ukraine. Russian backed separatists (that have Russian troops among them) launched fresh attacks killing seven Ukrainian soldiers.  This attack comes after the phone call between Putin and Trump where they agreed to work together with “partner-like co-operation” on Ukraine.

I guess that means that we will let Russia do whatever dear leader Putin wants.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38794679


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 30, 2017, 09:10:53 am
This is well put.  I would probably encourage more immigration that Lankford would, and we can disagree on that.  And I can agree with this statement:


U.S. Sen. James Lankford has issued the following statement regarding President Donald Trump's executive order on immigration:

Quote
As leaders, we have a responsibility to secure the homeland. The executive action issued Friday is a 90-day pause and reevaluation of the screening process for individuals traveling from seven war-torn nations, and a 120-day pause for the refugee resettlement program. It is not a ban on Muslims or a permanent change in immigration policy. However, this executive action has some unintended consequences that were not well thought out. I encourage the president's staff to evaluate American policy with an eye on both security and compassion for the refugees fleeing the terrors of war and persecution. For decades, our resettlement program has maintained a very extensive multi-year screening process for refugees from all over the world. There are unique challenges when you accept refugees from countries like Syria and Yemen, but our American security and intelligence communities are the best in the world. America can have strong homeland security and uphold our foundational values of religious freedom and refuge for the persecuted. These goals are not mutually exclusive. We should also encourage, not discourage, people who have gone through the legal visa and immigration process. America has always welcomed people from different walks of life, religions and countries, and we should continue doing so.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 09:23:02 am
This is well put.  I would probably encourage more immigration that Lankford would, and we can disagree on that.  And I can agree with this statement:


U.S. Sen. James Lankford has issued the following statement regarding President Donald Trump's executive order on immigration:


Iran is “war torn”? How?

And the Sudanese civil war is in the new country of South Sudan, not Sudan itself, and South Sudan isn’t even part of the order. The Trump Administration probably doesn’t even know that South Sudan is a country now. Just plain stupid.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 10:00:34 am
In Trump’s America court orders don’t mean anything anymore.

Quote
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents defied the orders of federal judges regarding Donald Trump’s travel bans on Sunday, according to members of Congress and attorneys who rallied protests around the country in support of detained refugees and travellers from seven Muslim-majority countries.
On Sunday afternoon, four Democratic members of the House of Representatives arrived at Dulles airport in Virginia on word that people had been detained and denied access to lawyers.
“We have a constitutional crisis today,” representative Don Beyer wrote on Twitter. “Four members of Congress asked CBP officials to enforce a federal court order and were turned away.”

This is totally constitutional and isn’t at all Fascist. Not even a little bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/customs-border-protection-agents-trump-muslim-country-travel-ban


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on January 30, 2017, 10:03:40 am
Iran is “war torn”? How?

"Alternative Facts"


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 30, 2017, 10:30:41 am
The Iraqi parliament has now voted to ask the Iraqi government to reciprocally ban Americans from entering Iraq and to expel Americans already there including US troops. If such a ban is implemented it would deal a devastating blow to US efforts to fight ISIS.

So much for “keeping us safe”. Part of the last two administrations plan was to fight terrorists in other countries to keep us from having to fight them here. The ban is damaging those efforts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-donald-trump-parliament-committee-immigrant-muslim-travel-ban-reciprocal-americans-us-a7552546.html



We have been talking about stuff like this for well over a year.   I know you cannot possibly be surprised by anything this clown is doing or going to do.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 11:48:08 am

We have been talking about stuff like this for well over a year.   I know you cannot possibly be surprised by anything this clown is doing or going to do.




We have, but Trumpers have been saying that we take him too literally and that he should be given a chance, that we should wait and see what he actually does.

Well here we are. And his actions are actually dumber and meaner than I thought they would be, and we are all of eight days in.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 30, 2017, 12:56:30 pm
Iran is “war torn”? How?

And the Sudanese civil war is in the new country of South Sudan, not Sudan itself, and South Sudan isn’t even part of the order. The Trump Administration probably doesn’t even know that South Sudan is a country now. Just plain stupid.

On Iran, I think we consider "defectors" as refugees, and certainly a large number of persecuted people would qualify for asylum. But I didn't say it was 100% accurate, but the sentiment is at least rational. 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on January 30, 2017, 01:40:21 pm
Trump’s had enough, he’s going to Florida for the weekend. Aside from his being so “low energy” he needs a vacay less than two weeks into the job, but as expected he’s going to stay at his Mar a Lago resort and mingle with all those common people that just had their membership fees doubled to $200k. You don’t have to donate to Trump’s campaign to get access like a normal politician, now you can now give $200k directly to Trump’s pocket and have him come to you.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316890-trump-headed-to-mar-a-lago-for-the-weekend

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/mar-a-lago-membership-fee-doubles-to-200000.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on January 30, 2017, 01:53:41 pm
We have, but Trumpers have been saying that we take him too literally and that he should be given a chance, that we should wait and see what he actually does.

Well here we are. And his actions are actually dumber and meaner than I thought they would be, and we are all of eight days in.



Sofar hes been great for business.

The 5 Biggest Tech Companies Lost $32 Billion Over Donald Trump’s Muslim Ban
http://fortune.com/2017/01/30/donald-trump-muslim-ban-tech-companies/


Now that we have a real-life Goldfinger sort of, you have to wonder if other countries have considered how they might deal with him when he starts looking for the big red button.

(http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/14677246_1085830458130712_3662647053743292416_n.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 01, 2017, 10:47:14 am
Well, it may well be that the travel ban for those seven countries have now killed more American residents than terrorists from those seven countries ever have.

Quote
A local business owner flies to Iraq to bring his mother back home to the US for medical treatment. But under President Trump's ban on immigration and travel from seven predominately Muslim nations, he said he was forced to leave his family behind.

Mike Hager fled Iraq with his family during the Gulf War, returned during the Iraq war and worked alongside United States Marines and Army forces. He now owns a business in Metro Detroit and said his mom would still be alive today if President Donald Trump had not instituted his travel ban on Muslim countries.

Hager said he was returning home with his family that included his sick mom. They were returning home to the United States where his mother has lived since 1995. As they were waiting in line at the airport in Iraq on Friday, he was told that he could pass through because he was a U.S. citizen. But his family members - including his mom - weren't allowed, despite holding green cards.

Detroit family caught in Iraq travel ban, says mom died waiting to come home
"They destroyed us. I went with my family, I came back by myself. They destroyed our family," Hager said.

Hager was born in Iraq and fled during the Gulf War. He lived in a refugee camp with his family for four years before settling in the United States. In the 2000s, he returned to Iraq where he worked as a contractor for the United States armed forces between 2003 and 2008 as an interpreter and cultural advisor. He even survived being shot in the back while serving.

He's a proud American citizen whose family has now been torn apart.

"The immigration told us that the President of the United States put an order right now - you guys cannot go," he told FOX 2's Amy Lange.

Hager said he was traveling with  his niece, two nephews, and his 75-year-old mother, Naimma, home to Michigan. He said they traveled to Iraq to visit family and when she fell ill but didn't expect it to be a problem for the family to travel since they all had green cards and had lived in the United States for 20 years.

"I was just shocked. I had to put my mom back on the wheelchair and take her back and call the ambulance and she was very very upset. She knew right there if we send her back to the hospital she's going to pass away - she's not going to make it," Hager said.

Sadly, he was right. He said Naimma, who lived in the United States since 1995, wasn't allowed to come home and he said she died in her native country. Hager said if it weren't for the order, his mom would still be alive today.

He blames her death on President Trump.

"I really believe this in my heart: if they would have let us in, my mom - she would have made it and she would have been sitting right here next to me," Hager said. "She's gone because of him."

Just as the family was traveling, President Trump signed an executive order banning travelers from seven majority-Muslim countries.

Travelers from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Yemen and Somalia are banned from traveling to the United States for 90 days so the country can detect "individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States."

Hager says he has no idea when his nephews and niece will be able to return to the United States and he's worried about his own status - even though he is an American citizen.

"This is our home. We've been here for too long, we've been here since we were kids," Hager said. "If I'm not wanted overseas in Iraq and I'm not wanted here, then where do I go? What am I supposed to do with my family?"

Hager is mourning more than his mother; he's also mourning the way of life he believes that makes America great. He also has this message for the Commander in Chief:

"You have to understand you have a daughter - you have family - imagine if somebody does that to your mom. You put the terrorists on this side - the bad people - but don't mix everyone together," Hager said.
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/232856168-story


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 01, 2017, 03:24:23 pm
If she was so sick she passed that quickly she likely would not have been fit to travel in the first place and no doctor in their right mind would clear someone for air travel in that state.  Here’s the other problem with this story: according to the Boston Globe’s timeline, Trump signed the ban at 4:43 PM on Friday.  That was 12:43am in Baghdad, Saturday.

Sorry, I’m casting a wary eye at anything passing for news these days.

/edit

Then this was added to the link on your story:

Quote
DETROIT (WJBK) - The leader of a mosque in Dearborn has confirmed to FOX 2 that a man who claimed his mother died in Iraq after being barred from returning to the United States under a ban instituted by President Trump this weekend, lied to FOX 2 about when her death occurred. CLICK HERE FOR MORE DETAILS

Imam confirms Hager’s story was a fabrication.

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/233053942-story


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 02, 2017, 10:25:24 pm
You people................

So this is a TRUMP thing yes?? Pull your head out of your arse...

In an exclusive interview on Thursday with ABC News' George Stephanopoulos, President Obama noted that "battle hardened" foreign fighters in Syria are increasingly slipping over porous borders and joining terrorist groups in Iraq, where the group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria -- or ISIS -- is now wreaking havoc.

Though al Qaeda denounced and cut ties with ISIS earlier this year, elements of both groups are committed to attacks against the West.

"Then they come back, they've got European passports ... [and] don't need a visa to get into the United States," the president said of certain foreign fighters

http://abcnews.go.com/US/syria-threat-prompt-airports/story?id=24351979

We have a man in the White House willing to tell you and me to F'ck off, that his #1 priority is to protect this nation PERIOD and you want to call him a fool for doing so? You want to say that HE is banning Muslims and that's all this is about? Banning Muslims??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???

OBAMA SAW THIS!! He tried to do something as well and YOU supported him! YOU DID because he was your Lord and Savior and I did because he was doing the RIGHT thing. But now because there is a Conservative in the White house you denounce the SAME action??

In issuing his ban on immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries, President Trump relied on a 65-year-old provision of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act.
The provision gives presidents broad authority to ban individual immigrants or groups of immigrants. Presidents haven’t hesitated to use it.
Barack Obama invoked it 19 times, Bill Clinton 12 times, George W. Bush six times and Ronald Reagan five times. George H.W. Bush invoked it once.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-immigrant-ban-history-20170130-story.html

Every single one of you should be ashamed for being so transparent on what fools you really are. You are the reason this country is so at odds with each other for spreading such dishonest hatred. You elected a man that did it 19 times!! 19 times!!!! Trump has done it once for the EXACT same reason that President Obama did but you will not support him for doing the SAME THING!!

The difference is Trump is a man that says why he is doing it and doesn't hide the facts. And that's why you cant handle it. You need sugar coating, you need to be told something different than what it really is.

Obama:

His broadest application of the law came in 2011, when he suspended entry of foreigners “who participate in serious human rights and humanitarian law violations and other abuses,” including “widespread or systemic violence against any civilian population” based on, among other factors, race, color, disability, language, religion, ethnicity, political opinion, national origin, sexual orientation or gender identity.

You will except that explanation yes? You will because it's President Obama saying this.

And every one of you will bash and say I am so wrong. All I am doing is quoting President Obama and telling you the facts. But in your eyes it is NOT the facts, not at all. AGAIN, that's what's wrong with this country.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on February 03, 2017, 09:35:47 am
Whoa, dude,  "calm down.."

I'm supposed to be working, so will have to condense my thoughts here.

"We have a man in the White House willing to tell you and me to F'ck off".  Well, yeah, I have problem with that.  If he (Or whomever is/was the president at the time) does something that I disagree with, I expect a more rational explanation than "F'ck off".

"The difference is Trump is a man that says why he is doing it and doesn't hide the facts. And that's why you cant handle it. You need sugar coating, you need to be told something different than what it really is."  No.  Not sugar coating.  But being the President implies acting Presidential.  This isn't a TV show.  I heard it said recently that Trump needs to learn to "measure twice and cut once".  I'm not even sure the man owns a good tape measure, much less knows how to use it.   When/if (a big if...)  he starts acting like a president, he will begin to get the requisite respect.

It is not specific to policy, the travel ban may in fact be a good idea, but how it was handled was abysmal.  Just as there is a difference between "We must take serious steps to secure our Southern border", and "We're going to build a huge wall!".   How a President says and does things does matter.  That's not sugar coating, that is doing the job.   

 
 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 03, 2017, 09:59:26 am
 Don't post after drinking the Marshall beers. Though I agree with my drunk self I shouldn't have posted like that. Apologies.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 03, 2017, 11:44:37 am
Trump's newest executive order, is a doozy. It's going to protect small investors by requiring their brokers and advisors to act for their customers benefit instead to their own benefit. Oh wait, no. It does the opposite. Obama tried to get that rule through congress, failed and then did it through the rule making process in the Department of Labor. Trump is overturning the rule to again allow brokers and retirement planners to rip off customers by generating pointless fees and trades that benefit the advisor over the investor.

Good think he's draining the swamp, right?

http://time.com/money/4659440/fiduci...-donald-trump/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 03, 2017, 11:48:45 am
You people................

So this is a TRUMP thing yes?? Pull your head out of your arse...

In an exclusive interview on Thursday with ABC News' George Stephanopoulos, President Obama noted that "battle hardened" foreign fighters in Syria are increasingly slipping over porous borders and joining terrorist groups in Iraq, where the group Islamic State of Iraq and Syria -- or ISIS -- is now wreaking havoc.

Though al Qaeda denounced and cut ties with ISIS earlier this year, elements of both groups are committed to attacks against the West.

"Then they come back, they've got European passports ... [and] don't need a visa to get into the United States," the president said of certain foreign fighters

http://abcnews.go.com/US/syria-threat-prompt-airports/story?id=24351979

We have a man in the White House willing to tell you and me to F'ck off, that his #1 priority is to protect this nation PERIOD and you want to call him a fool for doing so? You want to say that HE is banning Muslims and that's all this is about? Banning Muslims??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???

OBAMA SAW THIS!! He tried to do something as well and YOU supported him! YOU DID because he was your Lord and Savior and I did because he was doing the RIGHT thing. But now because there is a Conservative in the White house you denounce the SAME action??

In issuing his ban on immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries, President Trump relied on a 65-year-old provision of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act.
The provision gives presidents broad authority to ban individual immigrants or groups of immigrants. Presidents haven’t hesitated to use it.
Barack Obama invoked it 19 times, Bill Clinton 12 times, George W. Bush six times and Ronald Reagan five times. George H.W. Bush invoked it once.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-immigrant-ban-history-20170130-story.html

Every single one of you should be ashamed for being so transparent on what fools you really are. You are the reason this country is so at odds with each other for spreading such dishonest hatred. You elected a man that did it 19 times!! 19 times!!!! Trump has done it once for the EXACT same reason that President Obama did but you will not support him for doing the SAME THING!!

The difference is Trump is a man that says why he is doing it and doesn't hide the facts. And that's why you cant handle it. You need sugar coating, you need to be told something different than what it really is.

Obama:

His broadest application of the law came in 2011, when he suspended entry of foreigners “who participate in serious human rights and humanitarian law violations and other abuses,” including “widespread or systemic violence against any civilian population” based on, among other factors, race, color, disability, language, religion, ethnicity, political opinion, national origin, sexual orientation or gender identity.

You will except that explanation yes? You will because it's President Obama saying this.

And every one of you will bash and say I am so wrong. All I am doing is quoting President Obama and telling you the facts. But in your eyes it is NOT the facts, not at all. AGAIN, that's what's wrong with this country.




Here is how Obama used it, from your own cited source. It's not remotely similar to how Trump just used it.

Quote
Obama

He turned to the provision more than any other recent president, using it to bar people who conducted certain transactions with North Korea, engaged in cyberattacks aimed at undermining democracy or contributed to the destabilization of Libya, Burundi, Central African Republic or Ukraine.

His broadest application of the law came in 2011, when he suspended entry of foreigners “who participate in serious human rights and humanitarian law violations and other abuses,” including “widespread or systemic violence against any civilian population” based on, among other factors, race, color, disability, language, religion, ethnicity, political opinion, national origin, sexual orientation or gender identity.

Obama has also used the law to block anybody involved in “grave human rights abuses by the governments of Iran and Syria” through the use of communications technology to disrupt computer networks or provide monitoring or tracking.

Obama used it against individuals and groups of individuals that participate in certain behavior. Not the same thing at all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 03, 2017, 01:04:26 pm
Of course! How could I have been so blind to this. You are right, ISIS never ever caused " Wide spread or systemic violence against any civilian population. It never did anything based on factors such as Religion or Race or especially gay people, Never ever did they do that. They can't be the individuals or groups President Obama spoke of, no of course not. Must have been those pesky Buddhist terrorists.

Explain to me the difference (other than they way it was put out by Trump) between the temporary bans President Obama invoked 19 times and Trump has done once. That's 19 different times that need explained.

I supported President Obama when he did it because as he said himself they go back to Syria from Iraq and they've got European passports and bam, right in the USA they come. He was right, do you deny he did it for the reasons HE stated?









Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 03, 2017, 01:17:09 pm
Of course! How could I have been so blind to this. You are right, ISIS never ever caused " Wide spread or systemic violence against any civilian population. It never did anything based on factors such as Religion or Race or especially gay people, Never ever did they do that. They can't be the individuals or groups President Obama spoke of, no of course not. Must have been those pesky Buddhist terrorists.

Explain to me the difference (other than they way it was put out by Trump) between the temporary bans President Obama invoked 19 times and Trump has done once. That's 19 different times that need explained.

I supported President Obama when he did it because as he said himself they go back to Syria from Iraq and they've got European passports and bam, right in the USA they come. He was right, do you deny he did it for the reasons HE stated?


In what way did what Trump do make us safer than what Obama was doing?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on February 03, 2017, 01:45:37 pm
Maybe we can approach this from basic grade school math. Remember sets and subsets? "Muslim" is a set. "Syrian" is a subset of "Muslim." "ISIS" is a subset of "Syrian." The subset "ISIS" is not equal to the sets "Muslim" or "Syrian" no matter how much Trump or his minions insist on it, just as "McVeigh and Nichols" are not equal to "All Christians."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 03, 2017, 02:05:03 pm
Maybe we can approach this from basic grade school math. Remember sets and subsets? "Muslim" is a set. "Syrian" is a subset of "Muslim." "ISIS" is a subset of "Syrian." The subset "ISIS" is not equal to the sets "Muslim" or "Syrian" no matter how much Trump or his minions insist on it, just as "McVeigh and Nichols" are not equal to "All Christians."

Exactly.

And when you ban a larger set than the subset you need to make us safe from, it tends to anger that larger set creating a larger problem. Like Iraq now threatening to kick out the American soldiers now helping with the fight against ISIS in Mosul. Trump's ban has made us less safe and has isolated us.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 03, 2017, 02:08:25 pm
Exactly.

And when you ban a larger set than the subset you need to make us safe from, it tends to anger that larger set creating a larger problem. Like Iraq now threatening to kick out the American soldiers now helping with the fight against ISIS in Mosul. Trump's ban has made us less safe and has isolated us.

OK, so now you guys are using math.

That confuses a Trump die-hard supporter more so than facts do.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 03, 2017, 02:29:35 pm

So this is a TRUMP thing yes?? Pull your head out of your arse...


We have a man in the White House willing to tell you and me to F'ck off, that his #1 priority is to protect this nation PERIOD and you want to call him a fool for doing so? You want to say that HE is banning Muslims and that's all this is about? Banning Muslims??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???

In issuing his ban on immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries, President Trump relied on a 65-year-old provision of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act.
The provision gives presidents broad authority to ban individual immigrants or groups of immigrants. Presidents haven’t hesitated to use it.
Barack Obama invoked it 19 times, Bill Clinton 12 times, George W. Bush six times and Ronald Reagan five times. George H.W. Bush invoked it once.

Every single one of you should be ashamed for being so transparent on what fools you really are. You are the reason this country is so at odds with each other for spreading such dishonest hatred. You elected a man that did it 19 times!! 19 times!!!! Trump has done it once for the EXACT same reason that President Obama did but you will not support him for doing the SAME THING!!

The difference is Trump is a man that says why he is doing it and doesn't hide the facts. And that's why you cant handle it. You need sugar coating, you need to be told something different than what it really is.

And every one of you will bash and say I am so wrong. All I am doing is quoting President Obama and telling you the facts. But in your eyes it is NOT the facts, not at all. AGAIN, that's what's wrong with this country.





Sounds like someone is turning into Breitbart fanboy.... Step away from the edge!!


A big portion of this "ban" was solely arbitrary and capricious blanket coverage of an undefined group of people who were already under the visa program of the US Dept of State.  "Banning" people who are already vetted and possess legal visas, or legal residents of the US is not an act of protection for anyone.  It is an attempt to flex the tyrannical edict muscle that is planned to be implemented on much wider scale.  It most likely is also illegal without additional due process when applied to that group of people.

And it does follow that the same situation exists for the people executing that order.   As we are starting to see by the court rulings related to this little tin-horn dicktator game he is playing - it is illegal.

Early days, but this is very likely to play out as being an actual, real world, true to life, Overreach of Presidential authority - what the extremist right wing keeps spewing about, but hasn't happened until just the last week or so.  Where is Faux News outrage??  With their "good buddy" alt-right Breitbart David Dukes style Klanfan extremist Trump.









Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2017, 03:59:10 pm

Though al Qaeda denounced and cut ties with ISIS earlier this year, elements of both groups are committed to attacks against the West.


I had to chuckle a bit on this.  That's got to be akin to the KKK disavowing the Aryan Nation for being too racist for their comfort.  ;D



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 03, 2017, 04:11:43 pm
My big concern right now is his want to repeal the Johnson Amendment.  I'm all for that, as long as churches start paying taxes.  I can think of one 'church' right now that would fight that tooth and nail.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 03, 2017, 04:56:51 pm
My big concern right now is his want to repeal the Johnson Amendment.  I'm all for that, as long as churches start paying taxes.  I can think of one 'church' right now that would fight that tooth and nail.


So...you don't go to church do you?  I am still looking so attend different places from time to time.  Have been to several last year where there was open endorsement going on regularly.  Needless to say, none of the above!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 06, 2017, 06:59:12 pm
In what way did what Trump do make us safer than what Obama was doing?

Didn't say what he was doing made us safer, couldn't say that since we don't know if that is true or not. What I have said is I supported President Obama and I support Trump in this area. The difference that I see is proactive vs reactive.

President Obama put into place the restrictions due to the two individuals that slipped through the cracks, ended up in Kentucky and was later to be found to have placed roadside bombs in Iraq targeting US troops. His was a reaction to a vetting process that failed.

Trump is proactive with a 120 day timeline to fix the broken vetting process. Just how that will be fixed is beyond me since I see no fixes for anything in the near future.

Also, let me make this clear. I am not a die hard Trump supporter. I said it here in the past and I will say it again. He is, in my opinion, Sheep in wolves clothing. My entire point was pertaining to the ban, what the differences were and why when President Obama did it that no one was outraged like they are today when Trump signed bans. Yes yes, I know, stupid ol me, I no not math, I didn't gradumatate third grade....

So explain to me just how President Obama determined what people belonged to what group and from where? How do you do that? Really, this is not a sarcastic question. Do you just take the words of the people attempting to enter the US? Do you take the fake papers that he himself talked about and inadvertently allow two guys proved to be bombers later into the country? How do you properly vet certain groups or individuals?

President Obama did the right thing by taking a step back and attempting to fix this. Trump is doing the right thing by taking 120 days to come up with a vetting solution.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 06, 2017, 07:39:56 pm
Didn't say what he was doing made us safer, couldn't say that since we don't know if that is true or not. What I have said is I supported President Obama and I support Trump in this area. The difference that I see is proactive vs reactive.

President Obama put into place the restrictions due to the two individuals that slipped through the cracks, ended up in Kentucky and was later to be found to have placed roadside bombs in Iraq targeting US troops. His was a reaction to a vetting process that failed.

Trump is proactive with a 120 day timeline to fix the broken vetting process. Just how that will be fixed is beyond me since I see no fixes for anything in the near future.

Also, let me make this clear. I am not a die hard Trump supporter. I said it here in the past and I will say it again. He is, in my opinion, Sheep in wolves clothing. My entire point was pertaining to the ban, what the differences were and why when President Obama did it that no one was outraged like they are today when Trump signed bans. Yes yes, I know, stupid ol me, I no not math, I didn't gradumatate third grade....

So explain to me just how President Obama determined what people belonged to what group and from where? How do you do that? Really, this is not a sarcastic question. Do you just take the words of the people attempting to enter the US? Do you take the fake papers that he himself talked about and inadvertently allow two guys proved to be bombers later into the country? How do you properly vet certain groups or individuals?

President Obama did the right thing by taking a step back and attempting to fix this. Trump is doing the right thing by taking 120 days to come up with a vetting solution.

How is the current vetting process broken?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 06, 2017, 08:10:57 pm
How is the current vetting process broken?

Some officials, including FBI Director James Comey, worry there are what Comey has called "gaps" in the vetting process. Experts say U.S. intelligence in Syria isn't very good, because the U.S. lacks much of a presence on the ground. So there's no way to compile a thorough watch list of possible terrorists from Syria against which refugees can be checked.

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/17/456395388/paris-attacks-ignite-debate-over-u-s-refugee-policy

Federal agents are reinvestigating the backgrounds of dozens of Syrian refugees already in the United States after discovering a lapse in vetting that allowed some who had potentially negative information in their files to enter the country, two U.S. law enforcement officials said.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-syria-refugees-vetting-gap-20170125-story.html

How it is broke I do not know, but as you can see by NPR and by LA Times, serious issues are there. Do you not see an issue?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 06, 2017, 08:43:12 pm
Some officials, including FBI Director James Comey, worry there are what Comey has called "gaps" in the vetting process. Experts say U.S. intelligence in Syria isn't very good, because the U.S. lacks much of a presence on the ground. So there's no way to compile a thorough watch list of possible terrorists from Syria against which refugees can be checked.

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/17/456395388/paris-attacks-ignite-debate-over-u-s-refugee-policy

Federal agents are reinvestigating the backgrounds of dozens of Syrian refugees already in the United States after discovering a lapse in vetting that allowed some who had potentially negative information in their files to enter the country, two U.S. law enforcement officials said.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-syria-refugees-vetting-gap-20170125-story.html

How it is broke I do not know, but as you can see by NPR and by LA Times, serious issues are there. Do you not see an issue?

So how many Americans have been killed in terrorist attacks by refugees or immigrants from those seven nations since Obama redid the vetting process in 2011?

Zero.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 06, 2017, 10:59:46 pm
So how many Americans have been killed in terrorist attacks by refugees or immigrants from those seven nations since Obama redid the vetting process in 2011?

Zero.


So far.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on February 06, 2017, 11:02:04 pm
So far.

That we know about.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 07, 2017, 08:15:30 am
Good lord, you are far more likely to be killed by a lightning strike or a shark attack than a terrorist, and that's including the right wing wackos. You take a far greater risk getting into a car and driving than your risk of harm in a terrorist attack, many, many times a greater risk.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on February 07, 2017, 10:32:39 am
Good lord, you are far more likely to be killed by a lightning strike or a shark attack than a terrorist, and that's including the right wing wackos. You take a far greater risk getting into a car and driving than your risk of harm in a terrorist attack, many, many times a greater risk.

I don't disagree, but that is an illogical argument to an illogical (but legitimate) fear.    People are always more comfortable with risk when they get the choice of whether to take the risk.   (Don't like sharks, stay out of the water. Fear a car wreck? Don't ride in a car, etc...)   Terrorism, or at least the emotional consideration of terrorism, has nothing to do with an action on the person's part.  There is no assumed risk.  Of course it is illogical, but so are a lot fears. It does not dismiss their legitimacy regarding how the public feels.

But again, I agree with your general position.

 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 07, 2017, 10:55:05 am
As long as people keep pretending assuring us the random attacks around Europe, San Bernardino, Orlando, Boston, Ft. Hood, the Twin Towers, Pentagon, etc. were not inspired all or in part by radical Islam or radical Islamic thought then most certainly this is a big to-do about nothing.

For some reason, those seven countries ended up on Obama’s list and Trump’s list as being problematic.  I don’t have the sort of security clearance to make an educated decision as to whether or not better vetting is needed of immigrants from these countries. 

I just figured everyone who is losing their sh!t over this is because it’s a foregone conclusion Trump is a racist, misogynist, bigot, xeno/homophobe and national security would be of minimal interest to him unless it coincides with his personal business interests.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 07, 2017, 12:26:28 pm
I still don't know what extreme vetting changes.  They don't have a clue what they are doing other than they are going to change things.  Maybe its better.. Maybe its worse. They could have rolled this out with minimal news coverage but they wanted to get global attention by the mass chaos. 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 07, 2017, 12:37:16 pm
I don't disagree, but that is an illogical argument to an illogical (but legitimate) fear.    People are always more comfortable with risk when they get the choice of whether to take the risk.   (Don't like sharks, stay out of the water. Fear a car wreck? Don't ride in a car, etc...)   Terrorism, or at least the emotional consideration of terrorism, has nothing to do with an action on the person's part.  There is no assumed risk.  Of course it is illogical, but so are a lot fears. It does not dismiss their legitimacy regarding how the public feels.

But again, I agree with your general position.

 
Life is deadly. Whether its a lightning bolt or a recluse spider or a plane dropping out of the sky and falling on you, the percentages are always going to be used in an argument like that. It is legitimate. You really don't have the choice to not take those risks. Terrorism is just a part of life that also has nothing to do with action on the person's part. One must assume all of life is a deadly risk. Once you realize that there is no safety, then you can start to assign the relative risk. Terrorism of all kinds has less effect on ones safety than weather related risks and you cannot responsibly spend more money and effort to defend against terrorism than against a hurricane. But, I also agree that the how the public "feels" is also a consideration politically.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 07, 2017, 01:57:15 pm
But the perception is (correct or not) by and large something CAN be done about it. Whereas a lightning strike, not so much. Airplanes, we take measures to reduce that. The perception is shared by many that something MORE could be done to alleviate this risk.

Sometimes politics has to deal with perception more than reality.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 07, 2017, 02:35:00 pm
They could have rolled this out with minimal news coverage but they wanted to get global attention by the mass chaos. 

Or ratings.  Sometimes it seems he is still looking at the presidency as if it were a reality TV show.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 07, 2017, 03:08:41 pm
Life is deadly. Whether its a lightning bolt or a recluse spider or a plane dropping out of the sky and falling on you, the percentages are always going to be used in an argument like that. It is legitimate. You really don't have the choice to not take those risks. Terrorism is just a part of life that also has nothing to do with action on the person's part. One must assume all of life is a deadly risk. Once you realize that there is no safety, then you can start to assign the relative risk. Terrorism of all kinds has less effect on ones safety than weather related risks and you cannot responsibly spend more money and effort to defend against terrorism than against a hurricane. But, I also agree that the how the public "feels" is also a consideration politically.


Saying there is no safety or you have no choice in the matter is absolutely incorrect.  There are all sorts of examples out there of how we attempt to minimize the risk to the public.

You can mitigate risk, take calculated risks, or choose not to take certain risks. 


There are also measures against natural disaster individuals can take such as shelters or not buying or building a home in an earthquake, hurricane, or tornado-prone area.  You can’t stop those disasters from happening, but you do have ways to minimize your risk or to avoid that risk altogether.  I’m not sure how you pick a meteor proof area though.  ;D

If you don’t want to die as a result of drunk driving you don’t drive drunk and don’t go driving around when the bars have just closed.  Wearing your seatbelt is also a really good idea if you don’t want to die in a collision.  Those things don’t eliminate all risk of death behind the wheel, but it does add a good measure of safety.

The government has mandated all sorts of changes to cars and trucks to reduce vehicular deaths.  Government prescribes speed limits, road design and construction codes for the safer roads.

You can completely avoid the probability of dying in a fall from a high rise building by choosing not to become a window washer or a BASE jumper.

If you are working on the roof of your house, you can choose to tie off to the chimney so you don’t fall two stories and risk breaking your neck.

We mitigate risk all the time for the public with convicted killers and other violent offenders being locked away to keep society safe.

We screen domestic travelers and their baggage, using approved documents to travel, metal detectors, and X-ray machines to minimize the risk to other travelers.

If you think about it having to pass through metal detectors at airports, courthouses, libraries, high schools, federal buildings, etc. is the result of very few and rare incidents perpetrated by a very tiny part of our population. 

Prior to the Murrah bombing, who ever thought going to a federal building was dangerous?  Prior to Columbine, who ever thought a couple of students were capable of wounding nearly 40 people and killing 15 of those?  Prior to 9/11, who ever thought four commercial jetliners could be hijacked almost simultaneously and used as WMD?

You learn from unprecedented events and try to mitigate future events such as these.  We have all lost some liberty and faced a lot of inconvenience as a result of these aforementioned events.  This is what happens when we depend on the government to keep us safe and what government does when it defines what its role is in trying to keep us safe.  I think it’s somewhat of a PITA to fly these days but when I do, I have reasonable assurance the plane I’m riding in won’t be hijacked by people with box cutters.  The plane could still crash as a result of a weather-related event but there’s enough security these days to act as a disincentive for terrorists or just some sick love to fly a plane load of people into the ground just because he always wanted to.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 07, 2017, 03:18:06 pm
Trump jokes with sheriffs about destroying a Texas legislator’s career over asset forfeiture
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/07/trump-jokes-with-sheriffs-about-destroying-a-texas-legislators-career-over-asset-forfeiture/

At a meeting on Tuesday with sheriffs from across the country, President Trump joked about destroying the career of an unnamed Texas state senator who supported curtailing a controversial police practice for seizing people's property.

Sheriff Harold Eavenson of Rockwall County, Tex., brought up the issue of civil asset forfeiture, which allows authorities to seize cash and property from people suspected, but in some cases never convicted or even charged, with a crime.

Eavenson told Trump of a “state senator in Texas that was talking about legislation to require conviction before we could receive that forfeiture money.”
 “I told him that the cartel would build a monument to him in Mexico if he could get that legislation passed.”

“Who's the state senator?” Trump asked. “Do you want to give his name? We'll destroy his career,” he joked, to laughter from the law enforcement officials in the room.

Oklahoma police took $53,000 in cash from the manager of a Burmese Christian band because they didn't like his explanation for why it was in his car. They
eventually returned it after a Post story highlighted the case.

Trump's nominee to lead the Justice Department, Sen. Jeff Sessions, has been an enthusiastic proponent of civil asset forfeiture.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 07, 2017, 03:44:39 pm
Or ratings.  Sometimes it seems he is still looking at the presidency as if it were a reality TV show.

If the leaks coming from the WH are to be believed (and who wouldn't with Trump's obvious narcissism), it might be the most dysfunctional administration ever.  He allegedly spends no time getting briefs from his aides, is constantly watching cable news TV and gets fumed when people point out his shortfalls.

You guys complained about Obama being an 'emperor without clothes'.  This guy appears to be the epitome of one.

And before you ask me to source, Just put 'white house leaks' into "The Google".

EDIT:  And this kind of stuff (http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/07/politics/kfile-gorka-on-fake-news/) doesn't help


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 07, 2017, 04:06:47 pm
So far.

IF that was a real concern, why not a ban on the country - the only country - the has sourced the largest deadly attack so far??   9/11.


It's all about the hypocrisy, lies, deception, deflection, and overall fraud being perpetrated on the US.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 07, 2017, 04:09:41 pm
But the perception is (correct or not) by and large something CAN be done about it. Whereas a lightning strike, not so much. Airplanes, we take measures to reduce that. The perception is shared by many that something MORE could be done to alleviate this risk.

Sometimes politics has to deal with perception more than reality.


Ok... What?   We have the most extensive, strictest, most effective vetting process in the world.  As shown by the lack of successful attacks.

Specifics - how to make it better that hasn't already been done or thought of??   To think that Trump could come up with something better in a day or two after 15 years of our best and brightest working on this...   Idiots who believe him.


I submit nobody has a better idea than what has been thought of and/or tried so far.

 



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 07, 2017, 04:10:27 pm
IF that was a real concern, why not a ban on the country - the only country - the has sourced the largest deadly attack so far??   9/11.


It's all about the hypocrisy, lies, deception, deflection, and overall fraud being perpetrated on the US.


It is.  But keep in mind this president comes into office with the worse approval rating in history.  Oh wait...fake polls.  My bad.   ::)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 08, 2017, 08:17:25 am
The issues that keep being ignored by the pro-ban argument, which they cannot address, are three fold:

1) Fear is not the same as serious risk.  While the public can be made to fear just about anything (Muslims, Jews, communists, capitalists, immigrants...), that doesn't make it a "serious risk."  And not all risks require emergency attempts to "fix" them.

2) The "risk" posed by immigrants is well known, the data is available and the calculations have been done.  With our present screening process the risk falls below your clothes catching on fire but just above spontaneous human combustion. There are thousands of things that pose a greater risk to the American public than refugees, you are far more  likely to die from hot tap water, cows, vending machines, wind, roller coasters, or suffocation in bed.  Don't confuse fear with risk.  And finally-

3) The implementation was meant to be dramatic, not effective. The United States updates the process all the time, certain countries get more scrutiny, others get less. New things are added, old procedures are dropped.  But the changes are reviewed ahead of time and then quietly implemented. There isn't a dramatic signing ceremony and a promise of trying to find out if there is a problem so that they can consider making a plan later.  (immigration - promise to come up with a plan.  Education - Davos will come up with a plan.  ISIS - Trump has asked the generals to come up with a plan. Obama Care - we should have a plan by 2018.  The Wall - he's working on a plan.)

Stranding people at airports; stranding engineers who live in the US that were overseas for major corporations; professors, researches and students couldn't get to Universities; people needing medical care just told "too bad;" families that were split; and scores of tourists who will not longer be coming to Disney, NYC, or LA. Most of the people actually affected by the ban (and to be clear, after Trump's team spent a week denying it was a ban...Trump again called it a ban) have lived in the US for a long time.  With a stroke of a pen Trump's fear declared them a risk.

It is a PR stunt, not sound policy.  If you want to tighten immigration/refugee/tourist protocol, that's fine.  It is the prerogative of the executive branch. But if there really was a problem, they would at least be able to point to what needs to be fixed.  Instead, we get a signing ceremony and promises that there will be a plan.



Finally, is it legal?  I have no idea.   But Trump's utter disdain for an independent judiciary is a strong sign of someone who wants to be a tyrant. "If something bad happens blame the judge..." is classic fear mongering. The message is "it doesn't matter if it is Constitutional, I'm keeping YOU safe and the judge is putting you at risk. I need unlimited power to keep you safe!"  His other statements are even more grotesque:

(http://tnimage.taiwannews.com.tw/photos/shares/58968d1f49e92.png)

So called judge?  The guy is a federal judge, that's just a fact.  And the judiciary didn't "take away law enforcement," it is trying to review if the decree you signed is constitutional. You know...that pesky document you swore to uphold.  Never even read it, disgraceful.  Horrible!

(https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/trump-tweet-judge-visa-ban.jpg?w=640)

Well, for starters, it has come to a system of government with three independent branches providing checks and balances.  Did you miss 3rd grade?  And I don't think the judge through out a century of immigration laws, border checkpoints, and patrols- or did I miss something?  No?  OK, then not "anyone" can come in.  The only people that can come in with the ban lifted are people already authorized to travel to the United States, most of whom have already been here for years.

Someone get The Donald a classroom civics poster from a 3rd grade classroom.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2017, 10:51:10 am
So, over the last couple of days you would think from the lack of responses in here that everything had calmed down right?

Not really.

Nordstrom's announces they are going to drop Ivanka's line of merchandise (which she really hasn't been a part of for some time via reports).  Trump goes on another Twitter ragefest.

(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/170208124433-potus-retweet-780x439.jpg)

Wouldn't have been so bad coming from his personal account, but the official POTUS account retweeted it.

Didn't have the desired effect I guess; as later that day Nordstrom's stock rose.

Then, per reports (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/feb/08/neil-gorsuch-donald-trump-tweet-federal-judge), Trump's pick for the SCOTUS had some choice remarks about Trump's use of Twitter to talk bad about the Federal Court (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827867311054974976).  These remarks were confirmed by Gorsuch's White House appointed spokesperson.

What does he do?  He goes on the offensive against the Senator who initially reported these remarks (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/829660612452036608), which were also confirmed, as I stated above, by his WH appointed spokesperson.

He makes mention of said Senator's exaggeration of his Vietnam War service...which did happen.

However, I think someone who had 4 deferrments should probably keep his mouth shut about it.

This administration?

(http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/DumpsterFire2.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on February 09, 2017, 02:25:26 pm
Trump is a toddler who is pushing boundaries to see how much they can get away with before being disciplined.
Unfortunately congress and senate are dysfunctional.    The public is treating him like someone else's kid.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2017, 02:50:59 pm
Trump is a toddler who is pushing boundaries to see how much they can get away with before being disciplined.
Unfortunately congress and senate are dysfunctional.    The public is treating him like someone else's kid.

The problem is he is diminishing the US' status and reputation abroad, much as I suspected he would do, although I had hoped for better than this.

He doesn't understand the basics of the Separation of Powers.  One of his advisers (KellyAnn Whichway?) is now possibly in violation of 5 CFR 2635.702 (which essentially states that the use of public office for private gain is not lawful).


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2017, 03:13:49 pm
Somehow, I told you so....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBgeCZW3upg




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 09, 2017, 06:38:20 pm
Trump is a toddler who is pushing boundaries to see how much they can get away with before being disciplined.
Unfortunately congress and senate are dysfunctional.    The public is treating him like someone else's kid.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/99921e11-b5ec-4c92-b2dd-e10e49048144


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 09, 2017, 08:09:51 pm
Unanimous ruling defeats Trump Admin's appeal.


Twitter engaged.....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2017, 08:17:32 pm
Unanimous ruling defeats Trump Admin's appeal.


Twitter engaged.....

His response?

"See you in court".

He doesn't realize that it doesn't work like all the lawsuits he's been a part of.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 09, 2017, 08:23:23 pm
Did you hear that on his call with Putin he had to be told what the START treaty was? He's not a bright or informed man. Scary.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2017, 08:30:01 pm
Did you hear that on his call with Putin he had to be told what the START treaty was? He's not a bright or informed man. Scary.

Hadn't heard that but it's not surprising.  What an embarrassment.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 09, 2017, 08:38:28 pm
Hadn't heard that but it's not surprising.  What an embarrassment.

Quote
When Putin raised the possibility of extending the 2010 treaty, known as New START, Trump paused to ask his aides in an aside what the treaty was

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKBN15O2A5

He also said it was it was a bad deal. He's playing with nuclear weapons here.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: joiei on February 09, 2017, 09:48:20 pm
I guess Easy D is have a bad day. 

His response?

"See you in court".

He doesn't realize that it doesn't work like all the lawsuits he's been a part of.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2017, 10:01:55 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKBN15O2A5

He also said it was it was a bad deal. He's playing with nuclear weapons here.

Like I said.  Someone needs to hide the codes in a science book.  He'll never look there.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 10, 2017, 04:44:47 pm
How Trump Made ‘Blue Lives Matter’ a Part of U.S. Domestic Policy
And how, in turn, he’s essentially criminalizing protest.
https://psmag.com/how-trump-made-blue-lives-matter-a-part-of-u-s-domestic-policy-a5edbc1c1852

In addition to mandating the aggressive prosecution of crimes against law enforcement, Trump’s executive order gives the Department of Justice the power to re-frame “resisting arrest”—a charge that some argue is an encroachment on a citizen’s right to self-defense—as a felony.  Like his fellow Republican lawmakers at the state level, the Trump administration wants to criminalize protest.

For activists, this is alarming, especially given the state of the Trump Department of Justice. Trump’s new attorney general, Jeff Sessions, has vocally supported harsh criminal justice policies that disproportionately affect minorities, from mandatory minimum drug convictions to civil asset forfeiture.

Trump declared that “a new era of justice” began with Sessions’ confirmation, but there’s a problem: The two are fighting threats that don’t really exist.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2017, 08:55:49 pm
Unanimous ruling defeats Trump Admin's appeal.


Twitter engaged.....

The Twitters beats the courts every time.  Where have you been?  It's in that Constitution thingy 'n' stuff.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 13, 2017, 02:07:25 pm
Well.... If you want to take a picture with the nuclear football its $200,000 a year :D  Also you can watch him respond to North Korea :D


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319211-mar-a-lago-guest-posts-pics-with-nuclear-football-carrier (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319211-mar-a-lago-guest-posts-pics-with-nuclear-football-carrier)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 13, 2017, 02:14:49 pm
Well.... If you want to take a picture with the nuclear football its $200,000 a year :D  Also you can watch him respond to North Korea :D


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319211-mar-a-lago-guest-posts-pics-with-nuclear-football-carrier (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319211-mar-a-lago-guest-posts-pics-with-nuclear-football-carrier)

Mind actually blown here. Pay $200k to Trump and get to take a selfie with the man holding the nuclear football.

The security issues are staggering. Has someone vetted all the members of the club?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 14, 2017, 07:45:21 am
You guys are the kings of reading (making up smile) between the lines. Seriously.

The outrage is beyond humerus at this point.

Watching Hollywood/Music Industry this weekend and I find it truly ironic that the "punk" thing to do now is to show support for Trump. Because every single other lemming is doing just the opposite. What a weird world we have created.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 08:06:02 am
Michael Flynn is the first to fall, over illegal contacts with Russia of course.

Now parts of the former MI-6 agents dossier on Trump have been verified. The Russian noose around Trump's neck is tightening. It just may hang him. Literally.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 08:09:12 am
You guys are the kings of reading (making up smile) between the lines. Seriously.

The outrage is beyond humerus at this point.

Watching Hollywood/Music Industry this weekend and I find it truly ironic that the "punk" thing to do now is to show support for Trump. Because every single other lemming is doing just the opposite. What a weird world we have created.

What exactly is made up about Trump profiting $200,000 off people that now can have selfies with the nuclear football? Did that happen, or not? Because the photo shows a man that paid Trump $200k to join his club and now has a photo of himself on his facebook page that says it did.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2017, 08:18:24 am
What exactly is made up about Trump profiting $200,000 off people that now can have selfies with the nuclear football? Did that happen, or not? Because the photo shows a man that paid Trump $200k to join his club and now has a photo of himself on his facebook page that says it did.

Don't even try Swake.  People would rather follow this cheeto Jesus than admit they got duped by a guy who said he was going to drain the swamp and actually filled it.  People are gullible and lazy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 08:26:37 am
Heir Golden Shower complained constantly about Obama’s vacations and golf playing before he became president. Trumple Thinskin has only been in office three weeks and has already taken two vacations where he of course plays golf almost daily. Now the White House has released that this upcoming weekend he’s going BACK on vacation in Florida AGAIN. That’s three weekends out of four at roughly $3 million a pop. That is a staggering 12 days of vacation out of 30 days as President.

Obama took 189 days of vacation over 8 years. At this rate, Trump is going to hit that number in 16 months.

He’s just so low energy. Sad.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 14, 2017, 08:45:49 am
You guys are the kings of reading (making up smile) between the lines. Seriously.

I know, it's hard to believe - but none of this is made up.  Everything that has been posted is real, I'm happy to see links to the contrary.  It is important to remember:  THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

It is not normal for a president to hold national security meetings with foreign leaders in a dining room with random strangers who have paid large sums of money to join his club. It is not normal for a President to repeatedly make assertions and posts of things that have been proven false.  It is not normal for his team to regularly call any fact they don't like "fake news."  It is not normal to make policy without discussing the issue with the experts on staff.  It is not normal to screw up an early executive order so bad that it is stopped cold. It is not normal for a president to attack judges.   It is not normal for the president to talk to the Russian President about nuclear arms treaties and have to stop and ask what it is. It is not normal for white house staff to advertise the first lady's trinket line.  It is not normal for military and intelligence to be excluded from the national security team in favor of "alt news" editors.  It is not normal for the President and his team to regularly lob  angry insults at random people.

And its not normal for a senior official to have to resign so early.

But hey, Flynn just "inadvertently briefed the vice president and others with incomplete information."  Right? 

Quote
Hey honey, stopped by the store and got milk, oranges, some coke, and a loaf of bread.

That list could be said to inadvertently leave off the fact that the guy also bought chocolates.  But, if his spouse asked: "Did you also buy chocolates?" and the response was a firm "No," then we have changed the dynamic.  If the shopper is asked repeatedly and directly and continues to deny buying chocolates, that's looking bad.  If someone points out that the spouse has witnesses and a surveillance tape of him buying chocolates and then he "doesn't remember buying chocolates"...that's not looking good at all.   And hey, what if the chocolates the guy is buying happens to be the favorite flavor of his ex-lover, the ones with almonds that he and his wife both hate?  Well, damn, that isn't good.  When people start asking hard questions the guy decides he wants to separate from his wife because he inadvertently neglected to provide complete information and may have actually bought chocolates?

It isn't fair. I mean, it isn't like the guy was flown to Moscow, paid to speak at a dinner with his ex-lover and then got caught buying her chocolates. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/08/15/trump-adviser-michael-t-flynn-on-his-dinner-with-putin-and-why-russia-today-is-just-like-cnn/?utm_term=.f4470b916e62

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/13/politics/michael-t-flynn-resignation-letter/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/national-security-adviser-flynn-discussed-sanctions-with-russian-ambassador-despite-denials-officials-say/2017/02/09/f85b29d6-ee11-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.1645775cc4b8


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 09:10:58 am
In all seriousness, we now know that Flynn had many conversions with the Russian government and that he promised that sanctions would be eased directly in conflict with then President Obama’s orders. That is a violation of the law and he has been relieved of his very short duties. All that “fake news” about Flynn being a terrible choice have turned out to not be so fake.

We now need to know who told Flynn to talk to Russia all those times and what he was told to tell them and by who specifically.  Based on the answers to those questions this Administration may well be coming to end rather quickly.

We also now know that the conversations that were detailed in the MI-6 agents dossier have been confirmed to have happened, though the contents of those conversations have not yet been confirmed. We know that the CIA and FBI are looking into those conversations. That “fake news” dossier is now not at all fake. If those investigations confirm what the former MI-6 agent was told that also may well end this Administration rather quickly.

The Vegas odds right now on Trump not finishing his first term are at 58%


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 14, 2017, 09:26:47 am
To be fair Trump obviously told him to talk to them about it. Flynn is just a scapegoat.  Your homey isn't going to talk to your side piece without talking to you first.  This is the second person to leave because of ties to Russia.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2017, 10:06:51 am
To be fair Trump obviously told him to talk to them about it. Flynn is just a scapegoat.  Your homey isn't going to talk to your side piece without talking to you first.  This is the second person to leave because of ties to Russia.

Evidently he doesn't want to talk about it on Twitter.  Probably at the directive of the Donald, since that's how he gets most of his information anyway.

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16684314_1671052072921859_2958396393597810237_n.jpg?oh=93ce87bb55e7df99d21fb17c42dcfe8e&oe=5943C198)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 14, 2017, 10:32:21 am
He resigned because he lied to his boss. The earth shattering thing here is that he was actually forced to resign. Any other admin would have circled the wagons. Refreshing isn't it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 14, 2017, 10:35:54 am
Don't even try Swake.  People would rather follow this cheeto Jesus than admit they got duped by a guy who said he was going to drain the swamp and actually filled it.  People are gullible and lazy.

And the point I was actually talking about was Swake insinuation that Trump is selling access at Mar A Lago. Anybody ever consider it is literally more expensive to maintain the security in that place now?

But no, Swake IMMEDIATELY assumes that Trump is selling access, never mind the fact that people were paying $100k a year prior to his presidency, as if that was paltry in comparison.

And forget the fact that we live in a society where everyone is walking around with a camera/computer/email/do it all in their pockets 24/7 and the guy that has the "football" is a real person that actually walks the same earth we do. And sometimes actually comes into contact with other human beings.

That's what I'm talking about.

It's like getting a selfie with the President at the White House. And being shocked that the President is at the White House.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2017, 10:37:09 am
He resigned because he lied to his boss. The earth shattering thing here is that he was actually forced to resign. Any other admin would have circled the wagons. Refreshing isn't it.

And you're sure of this...how exactly?  Clairvoyance?   :D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 14, 2017, 10:44:04 am
He was forced to resign?  They knew about all of this a month ago. So if everybody gets selfies with the nuclear football where are the thousands of them?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 10:45:44 am
And the point I was actually talking about was Swake insinuation that Trump is selling access at Mar A Lago. Anybody ever consider it is literally more expensive to maintain the security in that place now?

But no, Swake IMMEDIATELY assumes that Trump is selling access, never mind the fact that people were paying $100k a year prior to his presidency, as if that was paltry in comparison.

And forget the fact that we live in a society where everyone is walking around with a camera/computer/email/do it all in their pockets 24/7 and the guy that has the "football" is a real person that actually walks the same earth we do. And sometimes actually comes into contact with other human beings.

That's what I'm talking about.

It's like getting a selfie with the President at the White House. And being shocked that the President is at the White House.

Only if the president was charging a couple of hundred grand to enter the White House and he pocketed the money.

When he became president suddenly his fee to join went from 100k to 200k and now he’s spending every weekend there and having state dinners in the restaurant while it is open to the public. This is ok with you? This is money for access that is going straight to Trump’s pocket.

As for that expensive security when he is there, that is handled by Secret Service agents and is paid for by you and me. Just like we are paying for increased security at Trump Tower since his wife and child are still living there. Tell me, does he charge the US Government for his own room when he is there? I bet he does. He charged his campaign for his office space at Trump Tower during the campaign.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 14, 2017, 11:12:03 am
Three things. Does #45 also still have his own private security which was at odds with the SS? Are we still paying for them? And, its likely that the nuclear football pic was not the real deal. We have several Air Force One clones to deceive and distract. I doubt we have only one human with the football. And that would indeed make the golden boy chuckle. To get paid for fake pics.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 14, 2017, 11:27:14 am
Access apparently = selfies with chubby guys now a days.

As if power and influence hadn't been peddled for decades. You (swake) are furious at the wrong actors. Trump is just one in a long line of people peddling influence. Hell, one of the biggest was just shut down for not having any more leverage. You are furious at a person, when the problem is so much bigger and so much more complicated than party affiliation.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 14, 2017, 11:47:23 am
I don't think you know how ridiculous you sound deflecting his behavior by saying, "everybody does it!" You got conned dude. Lots of people refused to see him for what he is.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2017, 12:23:04 pm
I don't think you know how ridiculous you sound deflecting his behavior by saying, "everybody does it!" You got conned dude. Lots of people refused to see him for what he is.

FIFY


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2017, 12:29:20 pm
I don't think you know how ridiculous you sound deflecting his behavior by saying, "everybody does it!" You got conned dude. Lots of people refused to see him for what he is.

Also, there's his "response" to the Flynn 'resignation'.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/831510532318429184


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 14, 2017, 03:40:01 pm

If there really was as much voter fraud as this lying piece of trash says, let's have a do-over election - and get it fair this time....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 03:42:31 pm
Access apparently = selfies with chubby guys now a days.

As if power and influence hadn't been peddled for decades. You (swake) are furious at the wrong actors. Trump is just one in a long line of people peddling influence. Hell, one of the biggest was just shut down for not having any more leverage. You are furious at a person, when the problem is so much bigger and so much more complicated than party affiliation.

The chubby guy was the one that paid the $200k to Trump to be in the restaurant during a state dinner.

Erfalf,

How about a bet. Trump claims there were 5 million fake votes. My real guess is they will never prove anything close to even 100 fake votes but let's make this painful for you. I'll bet you $1,000 they never prove even 500,000 fake votes. That's 1/10 of his stupid claim. You up for that? Trump and his minions say they have proof but never seem to release it. I'm betting they can't even prove 1/10th of what Trump claims.

If you can't make that bet then you have to admit Trump is a lying scumbag who is undermining our Republic.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 14, 2017, 09:28:56 pm
Quote
Intercepted phone calls and phone records show that several aides and allies to President Trump's campaign were in repeated contact with senior Russian intelligence officials
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319594-report-trump-campaign-aides-were-in-contact-with-russian-intel

This is treason......



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 15, 2017, 06:34:50 am
I don't think you know how ridiculous you sound deflecting his behavior by saying, "everybody does it!" You got conned dude. Lots of people refused to see him for what he is.

No, I see him for exactly what he is, and haven't been one bit surprised. I'm not defending him, as much as trying to redirect y'alls furor. Trump is exactly like every other politicians except decidedly less cunning.

No one was conned. The left is still just having PESD (Post Election Stress Disorder) and can't come to terms with the fact that all of their former secrets (conspring with foreign enemies, pay for play) are all now coming out into the open. I personally think, that while Trump's "Presidency" will be a flaming disaster, it may turn out to be one of the best things to happen to this country in a long time. Because the path we were heading down with liar and cheat after liar and cheat (just better at it than Trump) was going to lead us to some dark places I'm afraid. While Trump might be laughed out of office, he will not get his head chopped off or dragged out in the street and gutted.

And I think we will easily survive anything he could possibly do. I have more faith in American's than I guess most do. That's my vice.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 15, 2017, 06:36:30 am
And I don't think you all see how ridiculous you sound screaming at the top of your lungs about how THIS time, the things that the president is doing are going to spell the end for this country.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 15, 2017, 08:17:49 am
This is not normal, you have swallowed a Russian disinformation campaign because it suited your political leanings. It is now completely obvious that Trump is a traitor to this country and this election was fraudulent and cooked by Russian intelligence colluding with Trump and his campaign.

He should be impeached in short order.

Not my president.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 15, 2017, 08:28:02 am
Trump is exactly like every other politicians except decidedly less cunning.

That is decidedly not so.  I respect your dissent, I really do.  And it is axiomatic that every politicians engages in politics and that this administration appears to be less cunning, but this is not normal.

It isn't normal for a top adviser to be fired only after the media makes it public that he openly lied to the President and the American people.  It isn't normal for a President to regularly lob juvenile insults at people.  It isn't normal for a President not to release a tax return.  It isn't normal for a spokesman to plug products on behalf of the first family.  It isn't normal to conduct intelligence briefings with a foreign leader in an open dining room surrounded by people who paid $200k to join your club.  It isn't normal to pick fights with our allies. It isn't normal for a President to never have served the public in any capacity.  It isn't normal for a President to send out angry tweets in a near constant stream.  It isn't normal to have the head of the EPA to be engaged in active lawsuits with the EPA.  It isn't normal for the intelligence community to investigate administration ties to foreign governments who attempted to influence the US election.  It isn't normal for the President to regularly insult the judicial branch and question its purpose. It isn't normal for spokespeople for the President to give different versions of events to different media outlets at the same time. It isn't normal for a President to brag about "grabbing them by the Pussy!"   It isn't normal to Presidents to issue executive orders without speaking with the experts advisers on staff.  It isn't normal for Presidents to repeat claims that have repeatedly been proven false.  It isn't normal for the First Family to divide their time equally between two residences and a luxury resort.   It isn't normal for the President to be ignorant of basic governmental concepts. It isn't normal to exclude security experts from the security council.  It isn't normal for the Education Secretary to have no experience in education.   It isn't normal to regularly get in fights with the intelligence community.
It isn't normal to insist on facts that are demonstrably fiction. It isn't normal for the plan to be "come up with a plan" even after taking office.


There is some normal political wrangling that both Democrats do and Republicans do, and each whines and wails when the other engages in it (a good hint is when they accuse the other of "politicizing something" it really means "why are you doing exactly what I did last term?").  Of course there is some of that going on - Jeff Sessions was a fairly normal political fight and the Supreme Court nominee is going to be tit for tat on locking out Garland. But please, don't actually believe that most of what's going on is "normal."  This is not normal.  

Is this the end of America?  Almost certainly not. Powers usually don't blink out of existence, they fade away.  Leaders with no direction and a poor understanding of the matters of state greatly hasten that decline.  Vegas says Trump only has a 40% chance of making it all 4 years, that isn't good for anyone.  America season 45 isn't normal, but I don't think its the last season.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2017, 08:38:54 am
No, I see him for exactly what he is, and haven't been one bit surprised. I'm not defending him, as much as trying to redirect y'alls furor. Trump is exactly like every other politicians except decidedly less cunning.

No one was conned. The left is still just having PESD (Post Election Stress Disorder) and can't come to terms with the fact that all of their former secrets (conspring with foreign enemies, pay for play) are all now coming out into the open. I personally think, that while Trump's "Presidency" will be a flaming disaster, it may turn out to be one of the best things to happen to this country in a long time. Because the path we were heading down with liar and cheat after liar and cheat (just better at it than Trump) was going to lead us to some dark places I'm afraid. While Trump might be laughed out of office, he will not get his head chopped off or dragged out in the street and gutted.

And I think we will easily survive anything he could possibly do. I have more faith in American's than I guess most do. That's my vice.


Very strange world you got there...

It's not just the left, it's the people like me in the middle and the real Republicans - what few are left.   Liar and cheat...as I have said before, let's see a list.  I can come up with rebuttals to every single line item on the Hijacked Republican side 10 times or more worse and easily show how the economy - therefore the American people - have done massively better under the Dem and moderate (real) Repubes than any of the extremist right wing.  National and state.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 15, 2017, 09:31:59 am
To bolster what CF and H just said, if you want a more conservative view from a respected analyst, read this link. You are living in a bubble constrained by your view of what is left, right and normal. The republicans are none of those right now.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/opinion/how-should-one-resist-the-trump-administration.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 15, 2017, 12:16:43 pm
To bolster what CF and H just said, if you want a more conservative view from a respected analyst, read this link. You are living in a bubble constrained by your view of what is left, right and normal. The republicans are none of those right now.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/opinion/how-should-one-resist-the-trump-administration.html

Oh he'll just call Brooks a RINO and continue on.

Meanwhile, this nugget appeared in my feed today re:  Trump's response to the 'Russia' question:

Quote
Trump saying leaks abt treason are worse than treason is like the Empire convincing Alderaan survivors that the stolen Death Star plans was the real war crime.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 15, 2017, 12:41:04 pm

Trump saying leaks abt treason are worse than treason is like the Empire convincing Alderaan survivors that the stolen Death Star plans was the real war crime.


Like convincing the world Bradley Manning leaking video of war crimes was worse than the war crimes themselves? 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/bradley-manning-leaks_n_3788126.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 15, 2017, 02:44:16 pm
Apparently it's just the corruption and ineptitude that bother me, not the level of corruption and ineptitude.

Cannon I appreciate your non-knee jerk response. I just have a real sour taste for all "politicians". I real dis-trust. Honestly, I have never really considered getting off the grid more so than at this point in my life. People letting a duffus like Trump cause them to literally tear each other down is pretty depressing to watch.

And to think we could have had this and been so much better off...

(http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/557d8e1a6bb3f78160ea89d9-1200-924/ap090306017956-5.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2017, 02:51:22 pm
Apparently it's just the corruption and ineptitude that bother me, not the level of corruption and ineptitude.

Cannon I appreciate your non-knee jerk response. I just have a real sour taste for all "politicians". I real dis-trust. Honestly, I have never really considered getting off the grid more so than at this point in my life. People letting a duffus like Trump cause them to literally tear each other down is pretty depressing to watch.

And to think we could have had this and been so much better off...



It has NEVER been - and never will be - a choice between corruption and no corruption.  There is a huge choice between levels one puts up with...the evil of 1 or the evil of 100.  It's all about perspective.


And since Trump is gonna make us "great again"...lol...  And he has made so much noise about infrastructure...  Then why did he wait until just a few minutes ago to finally acknowledge the Oroville Dam problem - finally after all these days...worse response than Bush for Katrina!!   Another massive fail for the "Cheetoh"!!


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/15/oroville-dam-repairs-continue-as-trump-approves-relief-for-state.html







Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2017, 04:44:04 pm

That time....

https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/videos/1700323216645316/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 15, 2017, 04:51:27 pm
Apparently it's just the corruption and ineptitude that bother me, not the level of corruption and ineptitude.

Cannon I appreciate your non-knee jerk response. I just have a real sour taste for all "politicians". I real dis-trust. Honestly, I have never really considered getting off the grid more so than at this point in my life. People letting a duffus like Trump cause them to literally tear each other down is pretty depressing to watch.

And to think we could have had this and been so much better off...


First off, giving access for campaign contributions is slimy and it sucks. I want it fixed, the Democrats want it fixed and Republicans have been the ones blocking a fix. After the Republican K Street scandals the bi-partisan McCain-Feingold bill was passed to get money out of politics. Republican groups sued and won in the Supreme Court. That suddenly allowed all sorts of dark money into politics. There are two ways to fix this, by electing a new liberal Justice, but Republicans blocked that for 10 months and now with Hillary losing that option is out. The other is by crafting a new version of the law that can pass SC review, a path the Republicans have been blocking for years and now that they are fully in power aren’t talking about at all. Money, it seems, is good.

This sucks and I wish it was different but it has no relation to the corruption of this young Trump White House. He has his adviser hawking his daughters company on news shows. He refuses to release his tax returns. He has divested nothing and is in violation of his lease with the federal government on his hotel in DC. By far the worst of all he is selling access to himself for $200,000 a pop to his own bank account through his club that has become the weekend White House. He’s has a state dinner at his restaurant that was open to the $200k paying public, a Super Bowl party with that same $200k paying public. Has his handlers and staffers taking selfies with those $200k paying guests to his resort. And now that he’s spending every weekend there making that $200k fee that much more popular.

This is so wrong and so far from anything that has been done since the Nixon White House and Spiro Agnew.

And none of this gets into the corruption and actual treason of colluding with the Russians to get himself elected which is on another level again.

Clinton and Trump were in no way equals. His corruption is at a level never seen in this country.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dioscorides on February 15, 2017, 05:07:33 pm
It appears Trump is going to have more than just a US Intelligence problem:

U.S. Allies Conduct Intelligence Operation Against Trump Staff and Associates, Intercepted Communications

http://www.newsweek.com/allies-intercept-russia-trump-adviser-communications-557283

As part of intelligence operations being conducted against the United States for the last seven months, at least one Western European ally intercepted a series of communications before the inauguration between advisers associated with President Donald Trump and Russian government officials, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation.

The sources said the interceptions include at least one contact between former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and a Russian official based in the United States. It could not be confirmed whether this involved the telephone call with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak that has led to Flynn’s resignation, or additional communications. The sources said the intercepted communications are not just limited to telephone calls: The foreign agency is also gathering electronic and human source information on Trump’s overseas business partners, at least some of whom the intelligence services now consider to be agents of their respective governments. These operations are being conducted out of concerns that Russia is seeking to manipulate its relationships with Trump administration officials as part of a long-term plan to destabilize the NATO alliance.
...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 15, 2017, 06:10:58 pm
Oh he'll just call Brooks a RINO and continue on.

Meanwhile, this nugget appeared in my feed today re:  Trump's response to the 'Russia' question:


I knew he wouldn't read it. Makes too much sense. Ego gets in the way.

My favorite hypocritical remarks are those who think the illegal leaking of criminal, traitorous activities are worse than the activities themselves!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 15, 2017, 06:56:22 pm
Long, but very interesting read on Trump vs US Intel Agencies. This is really scary stuff.

The Spy Revolt Against Trump Begins

By John Schindler

John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst and counterintelligence officer. A specialist in espionage and terrorism, he’s also been a Navy officer and a War College professor. He’s published four books and is on Twitter at @20committee.

Quote
In a recent column, I explained how the still-forming Trump administration is already doing serious harm to America’s longstanding global intelligence partnerships. In particular, fears that the White House is too friendly to Moscow are causing close allies to curtail some of their espionage relationships with Washington—a development with grave implications for international security, particularly in the all-important realm of counterterrorism.

Now those concerns are causing problems much closer to home—in fact, inside the Beltway itself. Our Intelligence Community is so worried by the unprecedented problems of the Trump administration—not only do senior officials possess troubling ties to the Kremlin, there are nagging questions about basic competence regarding Team Trump—that it is beginning to withhold intelligence from a White House which our spies do not trust.

That the IC has ample grounds for concern is demonstrated by almost daily revelations of major problems inside the White House, a mere three weeks after the inauguration. The president has repeatedly gone out of his way to antagonize our spies, mocking them and demeaning their work, and Trump’s personal national security guru can’t seem to keep his story straight on vital issues.

That’s Mike Flynn, the retired Army three-star general who now heads the National Security Council. Widely disliked in Washington for his brash personality and preference for conspiracy-theorizing over intelligence facts, Flynn was fired as head of the Defense Intelligence Agency for managerial incompetence and poor judgment—flaws he has brought to the far more powerful and political NSC.

Flynn’s problems with the truth have been laid bare by the growing scandal about his dealings with Moscow. Strange ties to the Kremlin, including Vladimir Putin himself, have dogged Flynn since he left DIA, and concerns about his judgment have risen considerably since it was revealed that after the November 8 election, Flynn repeatedly called the Russian embassy in Washington to discuss the transition. The White House has denied that anything substantive came up in conversations between Flynn and Sergei Kislyak, the Russian ambassador.

That was a lie, as confirmed by an extensively sourced bombshell report in The Washington Post, which makes clear that Flynn grossly misrepresented his numerous conversations with Kislyak—which turn out to have happened before the election too, part of a regular dialogue with the Russian embassy. To call such an arrangement highly unusual in American politics would be very charitable.

In particular, Flynn and Kislyak discussed the possible lifting of the sanctions President Obama placed on Russia and its intelligence services late last year in retaliation for the Kremlin’s meddling in our 2016 election. In public, Flynn repeatedly denied that any talk of sanctions occurred during his conversations with Russia’s ambassador. Worse, he apparently lied in private too, including to Vice President Mike Pence, who when this scandal broke last month publicly denied that Flynn conducted any sanctions talk with Kislyak. Pence and his staff are reported to be very upset with the national security adviser, who played the vice president for a fool.

It’s debatable whether Flynn broke any laws by conducting unofficial diplomacy with Moscow, then lying about it, and he has now adopted the customary Beltway dodge about the affair, ditching his previous denials in favor of professing he has “no recollection of discussing sanctions,” adding that he “couldn’t be certain that the topic never came up.” That’s not good enough anymore, since the IC knows exactly what Flynn and Kislyak discussed.

In pretty much every capital worldwide, embassies that provide sanctuary to hostile intelligence services are subject to counterintelligence surveillance, including monitoring phone calls. Our spy services conduct signals intelligence—SIGINT for short—against the Russian embassy in Washington, just as the Russians do against our embassy in Moscow. Ambassadors’ calls are always monitored: that’s how the SpyWar works, everywhere.

Ambassador Kislyak surely knew his conversations with Flynn were being intercepted, and it’s incomprehensible that a career military intelligence officer who once headed a major intelligence agency didn’t realize the same. Whether Flynn is monumentally stupid or monumentally arrogant is the big question that hangs over this increasingly strange affair.

Prominent Democrats in Congress are already calling for Flynn to be relieved over this scandal, which at best shows him to be dishonest about important issues. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, has bluntly asked for the national security adviser’s ouster. Republicans on the Hill who would prefer that the White House stop lying to the public about its Kremlin links ought to get behind Schiff’s initiative before the scandal gets worse.

In truth, it may already be too late. A new report by CNN indicates that important parts of the infamous spy dossier that professed to shed light on President Trump’s shady Moscow ties have been corroborated by communications intercepts. In other words, SIGINT strikes again, providing key evidence that backs up some of the claims made in that 35-page report compiled by Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence official with extensive Russia experience.

As I’ve previously explained, that salacious dossier is raw intelligence, an explosive amalgam of fact and fantasy, including some disinformation planted by the Kremlin to obscure this already murky case. Now SIGINT confirms that some of the non-salacious parts of what Steele reported, in particular how senior Russian officials conspired to assist Trump in last year’s election, are substantially based in fact. This is bad news for the White House, which has already lashed out in angry panic, with Press Secretary Sean Spicer stating, “We continue to be disgusted by CNN’s fake news reporting.”

That is hardly a denial, of course, and I can confirm from my friends still serving in the IC that the SIGINT, which corroborates some of the Steele dossier, is damning for the administration. Our spies have had enough of these shady Russian connections—and they are starting to push back.

There are pervasive concerns that the president simply isn’t paying attention to intelligence.

How things are heating up between the White House and the spooks is evidenced by a new report that the CIA has denied a security clearance to one of Flynn’s acolytes. Rob Townley, a former Marine intelligence officer selected to head up the NSC’s Africa desk, was denied a clearance to see Sensitive Compartmented Information (which is required to have access to SIGINT in particular). Why Townley’s SCI was turned down isn’t clear—it could be over personal problems or foreign ties—but the CIA’s stand has been privately denounced by the White House, which views this as a vendetta against Flynn. That the Townley SCI denial was reportedly endorsed by Mike Pompeo, the new CIA director selected by Trump himself, only adds to the pain.

There is more consequential IC pushback happening, too. Our spies have never liked Trump’s lackadaisical attitude toward the President’s Daily Brief, the most sensitive of all IC documents, which the new commander-in-chief has received haphazardly. The president has frequently blown off the PDB altogether, tasking Flynn with condensing it into a one-page summary with no more than nine bullet-points. Some in the IC are relieved by this, but there are pervasive concerns that the president simply isn’t paying attention to intelligence.

In light of this, and out of worries about the White House’s ability to keep secrets, some of our spy agencies have begun withholding intelligence from the Oval Office. Why risk your most sensitive information if the president may ignore it anyway? A senior National Security Agency official explained that NSA was systematically holding back some of the “good stuff” from the White House, in an unprecedented move. For decades, NSA has prepared special reports for the president’s eyes only, containing enormously sensitive intelligence. In the last three weeks, however, NSA has ceased doing this, fearing Trump and his staff cannot keep their best SIGINT secrets.

Since NSA provides something like 80 percent of the actionable intelligence in our government, what’s being kept from the White House may be very significant indeed. However, such concerns are widely shared across the IC, and NSA doesn’t appear to be the only agency withholding intelligence from the administration out of security fears.

What’s going on was explained lucidly by a senior Pentagon intelligence official, who stated that “since January 20, we’ve assumed that the Kremlin has ears inside the SITROOM,” meaning the White House Situation Room, the 5,500 square-foot conference room in the West Wing where the president and his top staffers get intelligence briefings. “There’s not much the Russians don’t know at this point,” the official added in wry frustration.

None of this has happened in Washington before. A White House with unsettling links to Moscow wasn’t something anybody in the Pentagon or the Intelligence Community even considered a possibility until a few months ago. Until Team Trump clarifies its strange relationship with the Kremlin, and starts working on its professional honesty, the IC will approach the administration with caution and concern.

I previously warned the Trump administration not to go to war with the nation’s spies, and here’s why. This is a risky situation, particularly since President Trump is prone to creating crises foreign and domestic with his incautious tweets. In the event of a serious international crisis of the sort which eventually befalls almost every administration, the White House will need the best intelligence possible to prevent war, possibly even nuclear war. It may not get the information it needs in that hour of crisis, and for that it has nobody to blame but itself.

http://observer.com/2017/02/donald-trump-administration-mike-flynn-russian-embassy/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2017, 07:44:01 pm
Dare I stoop to Trump's level in nastiness...??   Well, yes...just this once.


More like doing first degree civic duty!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kkk-leader-found-dead-next-172937293.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 15, 2017, 11:22:29 pm
And now there's this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/now-6-republicans-are-on-the-fence-about-andrew-puzder/2017/02/15/e34cada6-f38b-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6Zt8k5kj15wGRqVi/giphy.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 16, 2017, 08:29:46 am
I knew he wouldn't read it. Makes too much sense. Ego gets in the way.

My favorite hypocritical remarks are those who think the illegal leaking of criminal, traitorous activities are worse than the activities themselves!

I did, and what I have been saying lines up pretty square with what Brooks said.

Did I once say Trump is great. I said Trump could be good for the country, but not in a way that means he is good at what he does. Without Trump, I don't believe Washington gets fixed, or at least not nearly as fast as it will with him. There is a difference. Nuance is a thing.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 16, 2017, 08:31:15 am
And to be PERFECTLY clear, my comment did not mean that I belived Trump would actually be doing the fixing. Just that the fixing would come about because of his existence.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 16, 2017, 11:01:04 am
And to be PERFECTLY clear, my comment did not mean that I belived Trump would actually be doing the fixing. Just that the fixing would come about because of his existence.

This I could agree with.  He may be a catalyst to finally roll by executive power, to protect the independence of the judiciary, to place qualifications on cabinet positions, to make it clear that conflict of interest laws extend to the executive, to mandate more financial disclosure, strengthen nepotism laws,  to reign in how much taxpayers will pay to protect various private residences and enterprises of the president, and to protect scientific endeavors from political interference.  He has exposed a ton of flaws in the system in the first month - some of which I think a bipartisan Congress could (and should) get behind fixing.  Both sides say it should be fixed when they aren't in power...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 16, 2017, 12:24:02 pm
That is decidedly not so.  I respect your dissent, I really do.  And it is axiomatic that every politicians engages in politics and that this administration appears to be less cunning, but this is not normal.

It isn't normal for a top adviser to be fired only after the media makes it public that he openly lied to the President and the American people. While Flynn may have been the fastest in history he is by far not the only one. Clifton R Wharton Jr served as Deputy Secretary of State under President Clinton. He was forced to resign after Secretary Warren Christopher leaked rumors of his disappointment with Wharton's performance on the job.  

 It isn't normal for a President to regularly lob juvenile insults at people. Serious? How about LBJ talking about Ford? “Jerry Ford is so dumb that he can’t fart and chew gum at the same time.” and another ( my favorite) “Ford’s economics are the worst thing that’s happened to this country since pantyhose ruined finger-f*cking.”    

It isn't normal for a President not to release a tax return.  Presidents release tax returns only for years they serve in office and only while they still hold that office. Incoming presidents do not release returns for the year before they assumed office. Though President Obama certainly did.  http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns

 It isn't normal for a spokesman to plug products on behalf of the first family. It is ok though for the President to endorse a product for himself though? Remember the Blackberry? President Obama said they would have to pry it out of his hands. At the time it was thought to be an endorsement by many, in reality it was because he depended upon it so much.

  It isn't normal to conduct intelligence briefings with a foreign leader in an open dining room surrounded by people who paid $200k to join your club. 100% agree

 It isn't normal to pick fights with our allies. From Iran to Cuba, Obama bent over backwards to court our adversaries. At the same time, he mistreated our closest allies — allowing Israel to get bullied by the U.N. Security Council and canceling missile defense deals with Poland and the Czech Republic in a misguided effort to curry favor with Moscow.

 It isn't normal for a President to never have served the public in any capacity. Not normal, isn't this one of the main reasons people elected him? His screaming from the mountain "drain the swamp". We have had a few Presidents that only served in the military and never in an elected office though. Not normal though.

  It isn't normal for a President to send out angry tweets in a near constant stream. Had some Presidents in the past had that type of technology I think they would have.

 It isn't normal to have the head of the EPA to be engaged in active lawsuits with the EPA. Not Normal and worthy of being called a twat monkey

  It isn't normal for the intelligence community to investigate administration ties to foreign governments who attempted to influence the US election.  The 1996 United States campaign finance controversy was an alleged effort by the People's Republic of China to influence domestic American politics prior to and during the Clinton administration and also involved the fund-raising practices of the administration itself.

  It isn't normal for the President to regularly insult the judicial branch and question its purpose. A noted Supreme Court historian who “enthusiastically” voted for President Obama in November 2008 today called President Obama’s criticism of the Supreme Court in his State of the Union address last night “really unusual” and said he wouldn’t be surprised if no Supreme Court Justices attend the speech next year. Added Professor Powe, who clerked for Supreme Court Justice William Douglas, “you don’t go to be insulted.   http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/01/supreme-court-historian-after-presidents-insult-wont-be-surprised-if-supreme-court-doesnt-attend-next-year.html

 It isn't normal for spokespeople for the President to give different versions of events to different media outlets at the same time. This happens all the time. See Benghazi

 It isn't normal for a President to brag about "grabbing them by the Pussy!" Not Normal, nor is it appropriate 

   It isn't normal to Presidents to issue executive orders without speaking with the experts advisers on staff. You know for a fact he didn't speak with his advisers?

  It isn't normal for Presidents to repeat claims that have repeatedly been proven false. Please see " Like your doctor keep your doctor claims, also refer back to the Benghazi video.

  It isn't normal for the First Family to divide their time equally between two residences and a luxury resort. Agreed!!

   It isn't normal for the President to be ignorant of basic governmental concepts. Agreed. Though I do suspect that many had a learning curve going in. No one can know everything

 It isn't normal to exclude security experts from the security council. Agreed but I will have to do more research.

  It isn't normal for the Education Secretary to have no experience in education. True. DeVos does have a degree, just not in education; she graduated from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan with a bachelor’s degree in business administration and political science. She wouldn’t be the first Secretary of Education to take office without a degree in the subject, however. Margaret Spellings, George W. Bush’s education secretary from 2005 to 2009, had a degree in political science. Bill Clinton’s education secretary, Richard W. Riley, had a law degree

  It isn't normal to regularly get in fights with the intelligence community. I think this is not normal but it has happened in the past. See WMD BUSH years.

It isn't normal to insist on facts that are demonstrably fiction. YUP, agreed.

 It isn't normal for the plan to be "come up with a plan" even after taking office. Agreed, but it in my mind falls right in line with " We must pass it to find out what's in it"


There is some normal political wrangling that both Democrats do and Republicans do, and each whines and wails when the other engages in it (a good hint is when they accuse the other of "politicizing something" it really means "why are you doing exactly what I did last term?").  Of course there is some of that going on - Jeff Sessions was a fairly normal political fight and the Supreme Court nominee is going to be tit for tat on locking out Garland. But please, don't actually believe that most of what's going on is "normal."  This is not normal.  

Is this the end of America?  Almost certainly not. Powers usually don't blink out of existence, they fade away.  Leaders with no direction and a poor understanding of the matters of state greatly hasten that decline.  Vegas says Trump only has a 40% chance of making it all 4 years, that isn't good for anyone.  America season 45 isn't normal, but I don't think its the last season.


Many things are normal. Many are not. Either way we are rolling down a large mountain of crap.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on February 16, 2017, 01:58:34 pm
This I could agree with.  He may be a catalyst to finally roll by executive power, to protect the independence of the judiciary, to place qualifications on cabinet positions, to make it clear that conflict of interest laws extend to the executive, to mandate more financial disclosure, strengthen nepotism laws,  to reign in how much taxpayers will pay to protect various private residences and enterprises of the president, and to protect scientific endeavors from political interference.  He has exposed a ton of flaws in the system in the first month - some of which I think a bipartisan Congress could (and should) get behind fixing.  Both sides say it should be fixed when they aren't in power...

So we should be thinking the Trump administration is the equivalent of a national enema? It explains a lot.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 16, 2017, 02:05:01 pm
From Trump's press conference today, where he got his new Labor nominees name wrong more than he did right and where he completely exposed himself as a crazy toddler.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zs7U9WQAAZeDl.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2017, 02:14:44 pm
From Trump's press conference today, where he got his new Labor nominees name wrong more than he did right and where he completely exposed himself as a crazy toddler.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zs7U9WQAAZeDl.jpg)

I watched that presser.  What a bumbler.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 16, 2017, 02:31:50 pm

 His corruption is at a level never seen in this country.


Ulysses S. Grant holds the record.  He was obsessed with "punishing" the south and went to outrageous lengths to do so.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2017, 03:40:20 pm
I watched that presser.  What a bumbler.

I personally never thought of Obama is terribly eloquent.  To many pauses, “and-ahh”, etc. which I realize can either indicate a thoughtful and careful speaker, someone very unprepared, or someone terribly aloof.

Listening to Trump, he’s raised the bar on unprepared and aloof.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 16, 2017, 03:45:13 pm
Well, Flynn is toast.

He lied about his conversations with Russia to the FBI. They don't like that. That's a felony that comes with jail time. Will he do time or roll on someone?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2017, 03:58:21 pm
I personally never thought of Obama is terribly eloquent.  To many pauses, “and-ahh”, etc. which I realize can either indicate a thoughtful and careful speaker, someone very unprepared, or someone terribly aloof.

Listening to Trump, he’s raised the bar on unprepared and aloof.

The difference?

President Obama is a Constitutional Scholar.  We're not quite sure what Trump is.  A dolt comes to mind currently.  I sure was hoping that his apparent idiocy was just him appealing to the masses on the campaign trail.  It's looking less and less that way just four weeks in.  Most of my (very conservative) family have pretty much stopped talking to me since the inauguration after I gave them a piece of my mind about how they drank the Kool Aid.  Sure, we had two shitty choices, but somehow most of my family chose the shittier of the two.  No big loss.  I've always been of the thought that I wished I could have chosen my family.  I only had three close family members I know who align politically with me.  Two are now deceased.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2017, 03:59:14 pm
Well, Flynn is toast.

He lied about his conversations with Russia to the FBI. They don't like that. That's a felony that comes with jail time.

That’s generally considered a pretty poor career move.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 16, 2017, 04:05:41 pm
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/click-for-a-full-transcript-of-trumps-first-solo-press-conference.html

"I mean I watch CNN, and it's so much anger, hatred, and just the hatred, I don't watch it anymore because it's very good — he's saying now, it's okay, Jim, you'll have a chance. But I watch others too. You're not the only one, don't feel badly. But I think it should be straight. I think it should be, I think it should be frankly more interesting."

"Well, you look at your show that goes on at 10 in the evening. You just take a look at the show. It's a constant hit. The panel is almost always exclusive anti-Trump. The good news is he doesn't have good ratings, but the panel is almost exclusive anti-Trump, and the hatred and venom from his mouth. And hatred from other people on your network. I'll say this. I watch it. I see it. I'm amazed by it. And I just think you'd be a lot better off. I honestly do. The public gets it.

You go to rallies, they're screaming at CNN, they want to throw their placards at CNN. You know, I think you would do much better by being different. But you just Take a look. Take a look at some of your shows in the mornings and evening. If a guest comes out and says something positive about me, it's brutal. Now, they'll take this news conference, I'm actually having a very good time, okay, but they'll take this news conference — don't forget, that's the way I won. I used to give you a news conference every day and made a speech, which was every day. That's how I won, with news conference and probably speeches. I certainly did not win by people listening to you people. That's for sure.

But I'm having a good time. Tomorrow, they will say, Donald Trump rants and raves at the press. I'm not ranting and raving. I'm telling you you're dishonest people, but I'm not ranting and raving. I love this. I'm having a good time doing it, but tomorrow's headlines are going to be Donald Trump, rants and rants. I'm not ranting. "


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2017, 04:08:05 pm
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/click-for-a-full-transcript-of-trumps-first-solo-press-conference.html

"I mean I watch CNN, and it's so much anger, hatred, and just the hatred, I don't watch it anymore because it's very good — he's saying now, it's okay, Jim, you'll have a chance. But I watch others too. You're not the only one, don't feel badly. But I think it should be straight. I think it should be, I think it should be frankly more interesting."

"Well, you look at your show that goes on at 10 in the evening. You just take a look at the show. It's a constant hit. The panel is almost always exclusive anti-Trump. The good news is he doesn't have good ratings, but the panel is almost exclusive anti-Trump, and the hatred and venom from his mouth. And hatred from other people on your network. I'll say this. I watch it. I see it. I'm amazed by it. And I just think you'd be a lot better off. I honestly do. The public gets it.

You go to rallies, they're screaming at CNN, they want to throw their placards at CNN. You know, I think you would do much better by being different. But you just Take a look. Take a look at some of your shows in the mornings and evening. If a guest comes out and says something positive about me, it's brutal. Now, they'll take this news conference, I'm actually having a very good time, okay, but they'll take this news conference — don't forget, that's the way I won. I used to give you a news conference every day and made a speech, which was every day. That's how I won, with news conference and probably speeches. I certainly did not win by people listening to you people. That's for sure.

But I'm having a good time. Tomorrow, they will say, Donald Trump rants and raves at the press. I'm not ranting and raving. I'm telling you you're dishonest people, but I'm not ranting and raving. I love this. I'm having a good time doing it, but tomorrow's headlines are going to be Donald Trump, rants and rants. I'm not ranting. "

He should have just stuck to naming his Labor Sec nominee.  This has evolved into more than just a dumpster fire now.  Wow.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 16, 2017, 04:17:46 pm
He should have just stuck to naming his Labor Sec nominee.  This has evolved into more than just a dumpster fire now.  Wow.

He didn't give a damn about nominating a new Labor Sec today, this was all about his unhappiness with how Spicer treats the press and communicates Trumps messages. Trump wanted to go and fight the press, so he did. I think we are going to see MORE of this insanity. I don't think anyone can talk to Trump.

It's getting harder and harder to find people that admit to being Trump supporters anymore. He's sinking fast.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 16, 2017, 07:15:36 pm
I did, and what I have been saying lines up pretty square with what Brooks said.

Did I once say Trump is great. I said Trump could be good for the country, but not in a way that means he is good at what he does. Without Trump, I don't believe Washington gets fixed, or at least not nearly as fast as it will with him. There is a difference. Nuance is a thing.

We didn't read the same editorial then. He doesn't fix anything. He has a well known history of failing actually. But do go on....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 17, 2017, 07:19:37 am
We didn't read the same editorial then. He doesn't fix anything. He has a well known history of failing actually. But do go on....

Ego must be in YOUR way, as you obviously didn't read what I said.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 17, 2017, 08:05:31 am
Ego must be in YOUR way, as you obviously didn't read what I said.

Yes, we get it, burn it all down. And screw anyone that may rely on services from the government and if he crashes the economy or stars a pointless war that gets a lot of people killed, oh well.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 17, 2017, 09:26:53 am
This just isn't funny anymore. Soldiers in the streets of American cities rounding people up. This isn't fascist at all. Nope.

Trump Weighs Mobilizing National Guard for Immigration Roundups

Quote
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS (GARANCE BURKE)
February 17, 2017, 9:19 AM CST
(AP) -- A draft memo obtained by The Associated Press outlines a Trump administration proposal under consideration to mobilize as many as 100,000 National Guard troops to round up unauthorized immigrants. Millions of those who would be affected in 11 states live nowhere near the Mexico border.

The 11-page document calls for the unprecedented militarization of immigration enforcement as far north as Portland, Oregon, and as far east as New Orleans, Louisiana. If the proposal is implemented, governors in the affected states would have final approval on whether troops under their control participate.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 17, 2017, 11:37:13 am
Enough leaks to sink even the Titanic.

This has got to be pretty unprecedented. Of course I say that with basically no way of measuring what so ever.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 17, 2017, 12:02:24 pm
This just isn't funny anymore. Soldiers in the streets of American cities rounding people up. This isn't fascist at all. Nope.

Trump Weighs Mobilizing National Guard for Immigration Roundups



Four states that border on Mexico are included in the proposal — California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas — but it also encompasses seven states contiguous to those four — Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana.

Governors in the 11 states would have a choice whether to have their guard troops participate, according to the memo, written by U.S. Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly, a retired four-star Marine general.

White House spokesman Sean Spicer said the AP report was "100 percent not true" and "irresponsible." ''There is no effort at all to utilize the National Guard to round up unauthorized immigrants," he said.


Glad he plans "massive infrastructure spending" because those tanks are going to be hard on our roads and bridges.  ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 17, 2017, 03:01:27 pm
Enough leaks to sink even the Titanic.

This has got to be pretty unprecedented. Of course I say that with basically no way of measuring what so ever.

Unsurprising response from you.

Leaks.  I thought Trump LOVED leaks.  Wikileaks to be sure.  He even encouraged Russians to hack further to find Hillary's emails.

Oh, unless it affects him.  Then he hates them.

This President is dangerous.  You can call the previous president aloof, whatever.  After yesterday's display I'm at a loss to see how much further it can go down in flames.  I've got friends of mine now who voted for him openly telling me they made a mistake.  They wouldn't have voted for Hillary, but now they regret voting for this meat-head.

If the leaks bring out in the open some untoward actions by the administration (and sofar there seem to be many of them, from Kellyanne promoting Ivanka's goods, to the Flynn dismissal, to his potential replacement turning down the job offer, to the Labor Secretary removing himself from nomination...and finally, elephant --or bear -- in the room...what does the president know about Russia and what ties does he have) that would be a good thing.  Instead, you have Chaffetz doing two things.  Investigating the leaks (that should be done) but refusing to investigate the Russia ties.  And his continuation of the investigation of the Hillary emails.  The rank and file Rs have lost their damned minds.  Guys like McCain, Graham and a few others give me hope, however.

Yesterday he was in full campaign mode.  His supporters eat that up.  His approval ratings continue on the decline.  He has gone to his vacation home each of the weekends he has been in office.

This camp....err.....administration is a train wreck on fire with dumpsters on the load cars.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2017, 03:01:59 pm
I had visions of brown shirts cruising the streets.

Turns out, Spicer is denying the White House has any such knowledge of the plan.  Here's an article with a pdf of the memorandum which originated from John Kelly, the DHS secretary.  If this happened without Trump's prior knowledge I suspect Kelly might be sacked soon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-document-trump-national-guard-draft-memo-20170217-htmlstory.html

And yes, this admin seems to be leakier than the SS Minnow.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 17, 2017, 03:30:31 pm
Unsurprising response from you.

Leaks.  I thought Trump LOVED leaks.  Wikileaks to be sure.  He even encouraged Russians to hack further to find Hillary's emails.

Oh, unless it affects him.  Then he hates them.

This President is dangerous.  You can call the previous president aloof, whatever.  After yesterday's display I'm at a loss to see how much further it can go down in flames.  I've got friends of mine now who voted for him openly telling me they made a mistake.  They wouldn't have voted for Hillary, but now they regret voting for this meat-head.

If the leaks bring out in the open some untoward actions by the administration (and sofar there seem to be many of them, from Kellyanne promoting Ivanka's goods, to the Flynn dismissal, to his potential replacement turning down the job offer, to the Labor Secretary removing himself from nomination...and finally, elephant --or bear -- in the room...what does the president know about Russia and what ties does he have) that would be a good thing.  Instead, you have Chaffetz doing two things.  Investigating the leaks (that should be done) but refusing to investigate the Russia ties.  And his continuation of the investigation of the Hillary emails.  The rank and file Rs have lost their damned minds.  Guys like McCain, Graham and a few others give me hope, however.

Yesterday he was in full campaign mode.  His supporters eat that up.  His approval ratings continue on the decline.  He has gone to his vacation home each of the weekends he has been in office.

This camp....err.....administration is a train wreck on fire with dumpsters on the load cars.

The clairvoyance is strong with you.

Where now my stating a rather meaningless fairly obvious observation has ulterior motives.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 17, 2017, 03:49:31 pm
I had visions of brown shirts cruising the streets.

Turns out, Spicer is denying the White House has any such knowledge of the plan.  Here's an article with a pdf of the memorandum which originated from John Kelly, the DHS secretary.  If this happened without Trump's prior knowledge I suspect Kelly might be sacked soon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-document-trump-national-guard-draft-memo-20170217-htmlstory.html

And yes, this admin seems to be leakier than the SS Minnow.

It's real. Now DHS is admitting the doc is legit, but was just an early, unapproved draft. It's unreal how incompetent this White House is

Quote
DHS official described the document as a very early draft that was not seriously considered and never brought to the secretary for approval
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/trump-weighs-mobilizing-national-guard-for-immigration-roundups


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 17, 2017, 10:33:52 pm
It's real. Now DHS is admitting the doc is legit, but was just an early, unapproved draft. It's unreal how incompetent this White House is
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/trump-weighs-mobilizing-national-guard-for-immigration-roundups


Some have suggested these leaks are some sort of by-design bait-and-switch, wherein the White House gets a “Donald Trump is mulling doing something extreme” story, then denies it, leaving the news organization that reported on it sandbagged and exposed. Meanwhile, the White House is suddenly in a stronger position to do what they actually want to do.

Here’s how this would work:

    1. The White House lets it be known that they might do something crazily extreme.

    2. Which allows the media’s reporting to sow outrage.

    3. Allowing the White House to back up onto a policy that’s less crazily extreme.

    4. Leaving everyone feeling relieved about the bullet that was dodged and proud of themselves for having backed Trump down. Also, the media looks stupid.

    5. But the less crazily extreme plan was what they wanted all along!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ap-national-guard-trump-media_us_58a76c45e4b045cd34c1970c


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 17, 2017, 10:37:56 pm

Some have suggested these leaks are some sort of by-design bait-and-switch, wherein the White House gets a “Donald Trump is mulling doing something extreme” story, then denies it, leaving the news organization that reported on it sandbagged and exposed. Meanwhile, the White House is suddenly in a stronger position to do what they actually want to do.

Here’s how this would work:

    1. The White House lets it be known that they might do something crazily extreme.

    2. Which allows the media’s reporting to sow outrage.

    3. Allowing the White House to back up onto a policy that’s less crazily extreme.

    4. Leaving everyone feeling relieved about the bullet that was dodged and proud of themselves for having backed Trump down. Also, the media looks stupid.

    5. But the less crazily extreme plan was what they wanted all along!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ap-national-guard-trump-media_us_58a76c45e4b045cd34c1970c

I think it's more likely that some poor brave DHS employee got the memo and was shocked by what it contained and felt the need to get it out in the public before it became an executive order.

Some of the other leaks I think are strategic between different camps in the White House jockeying for power and Trump's approval by tearing down the other side. Conway  vs Spicer/Prebius vs Bannon/Miller vs son in law.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on February 18, 2017, 07:47:36 am
Remember that the Trump campaign floated ideas in a similar fashion, "leaking" them to gauge reaction without having to own them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 18, 2017, 03:53:42 pm
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/798_zpsnklaq3a2.jpeg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 19, 2017, 08:54:36 am
Day 31 of the smile show:

I saw that Herr Trump posted a request for people to take a survey in what was called a 'mainstream media accountability survey'.  However, things didn't go quite his way on this, as the poll didn't live up to what he expected (you can read that as more than just HIS supporters/followers took the poll).  What did he expect?  He asked 'Americans' to take it.  His respsonse?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C46MTiDUcAEz9mh.jpg:large)

While in Florida yesterday during his 'rally' (hey Donny, you won...hasn't anyone told you this?) he alluded to some nefarious incident in Sweden happening.  From a Swedish media outlet, here  (http://www.aftonbladet.se/a/Vn17J)is what they say happened in their country.

This morning on Meet the Press, John McCain (yes that John McCain) had the following to say during a discussion with Chuck Todd:

"I hate the press, I hate you especially, but the fact is we need you, we need a free press," John McCain told Chuck Todd.
"I'm not saying President Trump is trying to be a dictator, I'm just saying we need to learn the lessons of history."

But I'm sure many in this state would call McCain a RINO.  That took incredible courage and love of country above party to say.  Of course that's my opinion.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on February 19, 2017, 12:40:01 pm
But the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor in Sweden yesterday. Everybody knows that.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 19, 2017, 03:25:39 pm
But the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor in Sweden yesterday. Everybody knows that.

LOL.  Nice Animal House reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 10:57:42 am
Day 31 of the smile show:

I saw that Herr Trump posted a request for people to take a survey in what was called a 'mainstream media accountability survey'.  However, things didn't go quite his way on this, as the poll didn't live up to what he expected (you can read that as more than just HIS supporters/followers took the poll).  What did he expect?  He asked 'Americans' to take it.  His respsonse?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C46MTiDUcAEz9mh.jpg:large)

While in Florida yesterday during his 'rally' (hey Donny, you won...hasn't anyone told you this?) he alluded to some nefarious incident in Sweden happening.  From a Swedish media outlet, here  (http://www.aftonbladet.se/a/Vn17J)is what they say happened in their country.

This morning on Meet the Press, John McCain (yes that John McCain) had the following to say during a discussion with Chuck Todd:

"I hate the press, I hate you especially, but the fact is we need you, we need a free press," John McCain told Chuck Todd.
"I'm not saying President Trump is trying to be a dictator, I'm just saying we need to learn the lessons of history."

But I'm sure many in this state would call McCain a RINO.  That took incredible courage and love of country above party to say.  Of course that's my opinion.

What McCain said and what Trump says about the press in my eyes are perfectly in line with each other, they both hate the press, But in yours one is heroic, and the other a dictator?

Please describe to me exactly how Trump has been hindering the "free press". I really would like to know. Presidents have long tried to control the press or release what they thought would best suit them. Trump is (STILL) not unique on this front. Roosevelt had polio, yet no one knew. Was he a dictator because he controlled the message (well, maybe a bad example)?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 11:01:17 am
What McCain said and what Trump says about the press in my eyes are perfectly in line with each other, they both hate the press, But in yours one is heroic, and the other a dictator?

Please describe to me exactly how Trump has been hindering the "free press". I really would like to know. Presidents have long tried to control the press or release what they thought would best suit them. Trump is (STILL) not unique on this front. Roosevelt had polio, yet no one knew. Was he a dictator because he controlled the message (well, maybe a bad example)?

Yep, continue to fall in line.

The difference is that no President has EVER called the press the 'enemy of the American people'.  Not even Nixon did that, although at the end I'm pretty sure he probably thought it.

Wow.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on February 20, 2017, 11:21:31 am
Yep, continue to fall in line.

The difference is that no President has EVER called the press the 'enemy of the American people'.  Not even Nixon did that, although at the end I'm pretty sure he probably thought it.

Wow.

Exactly.    Also, the term "Fake News" is also far more dangerous than it might first seem.  It's used as a classic gaslighting technique
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting))  and is an attempt to discredit ALL news, not just the actual and real fabrications.  Muddy the waters, confuse people, and tell them the only person they should believe is HIM.   Honestly scary. 



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 11:26:07 am
Also, with regards to FDR, there was a gentleman's agreement between FDR and the press corps not to show him in a wheelchair or in such a way as to show weakness with regards to the US leader.  That's a whole lot different than what Bronzer Overload is doing here.  He's essentially calling the Fourth Estate the enemy and trying to wage war on it.

Putin did this same exact thing in the first year of his leadership by suing the press many times and essentially getting them to fall in line...Pravda-style.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 20, 2017, 11:34:55 am
Actually, the press did talk about his disability.  TIME even published a photo of FDR in his wheelchair:
http://ideas.time.com/2013/07/12/the-myth-of-fdrs-secret-disability/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 11:55:01 am
Actually, the press did talk about his disability.  TIME even published a photo of FDR in his wheelchair:
http://ideas.time.com/2013/07/12/the-myth-of-fdrs-secret-disability/


My point being was that he didn't strong-arm the press into hiding it.  And that was the exact article I sourced for the gentleman's agreement.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 20, 2017, 12:02:12 pm
FWIW Nixon did refer to the press as the enemy. In Nixon's world they were because facts were facts back then.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 12:08:52 pm
So the concern is that Twitter comments are going to shut down the press. Got it.

Using the term Fake News is only dangerous because the "press" can't seem to fact check their own smile at a pretty alarming rate. You know how people grumble and moan that preception isn't reality. Well, there is a reason that the perception exist in most circumstances.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 12:19:19 pm
So the concern is that Twitter comments are going to shut down the press. Got it.

Using the term Fake News is only dangerous because the "press" can't seem to fact check their own smile at a pretty alarming rate. You know how people grumble and moan that preception isn't reality. Well, there is a reason that the perception exist in most circumstances.

Jeez.  The twitter comments?

He's been saying them out on the campaign tr...wait, hasn't someone told this guy he won?  He can't stand it when he's not in the spotlight, so he throws tantrums like the press conference last week.

His Chief of Staff has also reaffirmed it.

Glad to know you are a gullible Trump supporter...or at least you appear to be.

This country has voted a 5 year old into office.  Sad.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 12:20:10 pm
Jeez.  The twitter comments?

He's been saying them out on the campaign tr...wait, hasn't someone told this guy he won?  He can't stand it when he's not in the spotlight, so he throws tantrums like the press conference last week.

His Chief of Staff has also reaffirmed it.

Glad to know you are a gullible Trump supporter...or at least you appear to be.

This country has voted a 5 year old into office.  Sad.

About as gullible as believing this duffus could really "shut down the press" by making it an enemy. Come off it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 12:21:32 pm
About as gullible as believing this duffus could really "shut down the press" by making it an enemy. Come off it.

I never said he could.  I'm saying we need to, as McCain said, look to history.  Clairvoyant?  You only need to look as far back as Putin as I alluded to.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 20, 2017, 12:27:37 pm
A question to erfalf.

Do you think that the enemies of the American People should be able to operate freely in the United States?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 12:29:00 pm
I never said he could.  I'm saying we need to, as McCain said, look to history.  Clairvoyant?  You only need to look as far back as Putin as I alluded to.

You are all either completely snowed by his competence (I doubt it) or live in a "the sky is falling" world 24/7.

Like I've said before, he is a duffus. Why all the credence to what he could or couldn't do? Has your faith in the bureaucracy gone from 100% to 0% purely due to a change at the top? Or is it that you fear the bureaucracy, but it was not trendy to say so last year? I'm really curious, because from my world view, the government will likely function pretty much as it has for the last 8/16/24 years. I have 0% faith that Trump will "make America Great Again".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 12:30:42 pm
A question to erfalf.

Do you think that the enemies of the American People should be able to operate freely in the United States?

Who determines enemies? Are they American citizens or not? I know where you are headed, but you realize it is far more complicated than that.

And on that note, we technically don't let them operate abroad freely either. Just ask Trump's predecessor.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 20, 2017, 12:34:37 pm
Who determines enemies? Are they American citizens or not? I know where you are headed, but you realize it is far more complicated than that.

And on that note, we technically don't let them operate abroad freely either. Just ask Trump's predecessor.

I would say that the President, Congress, NSA, FBI, homeland security could all determine people to be enemies of the American People.  So I didn't catch it. Are you for allowing enemies of the United States people to operate freely in the United States or not?  So you are for allowing American citizens who are enemies of the people to operate freely?  I mean you just arrest them and then let the so called judges decide if they are guilty of a crime right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 20, 2017, 12:56:59 pm
What McCain said and what Trump says about the press in my eyes are perfectly in line with each other, they both hate the press, But in yours one is heroic, and the other a dictator?

Please describe to me exactly how Trump has been hindering the "free press". I really would like to know. Presidents have long tried to control the press or release what they thought would best suit them. Trump is (STILL) not unique on this front. Roosevelt had polio, yet no one knew. Was he a dictator because he controlled the message (well, maybe a bad example)?


Everyone knew Roosevelt had polio - at least those who listened to real news instead of Faux News.  it was known from the git-go.  It just wasn't advertised and paraded about much.  Roosevelt tried hard to hide it so it wouldn't enter the discussion   Just think what the Murdoch Clown Show would do with that today.  And given Trump's proven track record on people with handicaps/disabilities, well one can only imagine how he would mock a polio victim.






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 20, 2017, 01:10:24 pm

While in Florida yesterday during his 'rally' (hey Donny, you won...hasn't anyone told you this?) he alluded to some nefarious incident in Sweden happening.  From a Swedish media outlet, here  (http://www.aftonbladet.se/a/Vn17J)is what they say happened in their country.


After the terrible terrorist attack in Sweden, they have finally come around to seeing it our way, and are now offering a solution finally.

(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/58989abb3149a172058b54f6-480/ikea-wall-2.jpg)

 ;D http://www.the-postillon.com/2017/01/border-wall-ikea.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 03:07:46 pm
I would say that the President, Congress, NSA, FBI, homeland security could all determine people to be enemies of the American People.  So I didn't catch it. Are you for allowing enemies of the United States people to operate freely in the United States or not?  So you are for allowing American citizens who are enemies of the people to operate freely?  I mean you just arrest them and then let the so called judges decide if they are guilty of a crime right?

IF they are American citizens, and have been afforded due process, they can think whatever they want freely in this country.

That being said, I know our memories are short, but does no one recall the hostility Obama showed toward the media. I know it was rough for him getting called Hitler all the time and everything, but... wait what?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/blogs/ticket/obama-admin-spied-fox-news-reporter-james-rosen-134204299.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Department_of_Justice_investigations_of_reporters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/justice-departments-scrutiny-of-fox-news-reporter-james-rosen-in-leak-case-draws-fire/2013/05/20/c6289eba-c162-11e2-8bd8-2788030e6b44_story.html?utm_term=.9c2e85ecd927
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/02/where_was_mccain_when_obama_attacked_the_free_press.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 20, 2017, 03:18:03 pm
IF they are American citizens, and have been afforded due process, they can think whatever they want freely in this country.

That being said, I know our memories are short, but does no one recall the hostility Obama showed toward the media. I know it was rough for him getting called Hitler all the time and everything, but... wait what?




Or the way Trump lied for 8+ years about a birth certificate....



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 03:21:22 pm

Or the way Trump lied for 8+ years about a birth certificate....



(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/66/669db27dc4436180a2a16e098cafef630807404ad07f31ef8f958a2951707517.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on February 20, 2017, 04:48:24 pm
IF they are American citizens, and have been afforded due process, they can think whatever they want freely in this country.

That being said, I know our memories are short, but does no one recall the hostility Obama showed toward the media. I know it was rough for him getting called Hitler all the time and everything, but... wait what?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/blogs/ticket/obama-admin-spied-fox-news-reporter-james-rosen-134204299.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Department_of_Justice_investigations_of_reporters
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/justice-departments-scrutiny-of-fox-news-reporter-james-rosen-in-leak-case-draws-fire/2013/05/20/c6289eba-c162-11e2-8bd8-2788030e6b44_story.html?utm_term=.9c2e85ecd927
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/02/where_was_mccain_when_obama_attacked_the_free_press.html

You are still missing the difference.   Getting into fights with the press, saying they are biased, unfair, etc.,  is old hat.  Obama (rightly or wrongly, but more similar to what others had done before) targeted specific reporters, etc.   I'm not defending those actions, but that is a far cry from yelling "Fake News!" and attempting to slather ALL the press for the actions of some.  What Trump is to doing is impugning "the media" in general, telling his followers not to listen to any of them.  Just listen to him.

McCain is right on this one.   Most politicians, including McCain, absolutely can't stand the media but they understand the role it plays.  Trump doesn't. (Or, he does, and doesn't care. Which is even worse.)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 06:04:37 pm
You are still missing the difference.   Getting into fights with the press, saying they are biased, unfair, etc.,  is old hat.  Obama (rightly or wrongly, but more similar to what others had done before) targeted specific reporters, etc.   I'm not defending those actions, but that is a far cry from yelling "Fake News!" and attempting to slather ALL the press for the actions of some.  What Trump is to doing is impugning "the media" in general, telling his followers not to listen to any of them.  Just listen to him.

McCain is right on this one.   Most politicians, including McCain, absolutely can't stand the media but they understand the role it plays.  Trump doesn't. (Or, he does, and doesn't care. Which is even worse.)


What Obama did on a nearly daily basis slandering Fox news and the "alt" news is exactly similar to what Trump is doing to the mainstream media today. Again, just much more eloquently done. He called Fox news stupid and misguided while not making it sound so insulting.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 20, 2017, 06:05:44 pm
What Obama did on a nearly daily basis slandering Fox news and the "alt" news is exactly similar to what Trump is doing to the mainstream media today. Again, just much more eloquently done. He called Fox news stupid and misguided while not making it sound so insulting.

Please provide some quotes for us to discuss that you feel are "exactly similar", k?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 20, 2017, 07:57:10 pm
Please provide some quotes for us to discuss that you feel are "exactly similar", k?

From a mouthpiece:

Quote
We’re going to treat them the way we would treat an opponent,” said Anita Dunn, the White House communications director, in a telephone interview on Sunday. “As they are undertaking a war against Barack Obama and the White House, we don’t need to pretend that this is the way that legitimate news organizations behave.”

Sounds pretty familiar right?

Another mouthpiece:

http://www.politico.com/story/2009/10/fox-not-really-news-says-axelrod-028417

And straight from the horse's mouth (via Rolling Stone):

Quote
The golden age of an objective press was a pretty narrow span of time in our history. Before that, you had folks like Hearst who used their newspapers very intentionally to promote their viewpoints. I think Fox is part of that tradition — it is part of the tradition that has a very clear, undeniable point of view. It's a point of view that I disagree with. It's a point of view that I think is ultimately destructive for the long-term growth of a country that has a vibrant middle class and is competitive in the world.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/obama-in-command-br-the-rolling-stone-interview-20100928

Did you catch that populist dig, ie Fox is against the middle class, in other words "us".

And for what it's worth, at least the Times saw this coming and wasn't screeching about how Trump represented a threat to journalism. The big difference between Obama and Trump seems to be that Trump is a jack donkey to your face.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-trump-targets-journalists-thank-obama.html

I find great irony that the same people who routinely used the term Faux News are now gravely concerned about the actual term Fake News. Ain't life fun.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 20, 2017, 08:42:24 pm
From a mouthpiece:

Sounds pretty familiar right?

Another mouthpiece:

http://www.politico.com/story/2009/10/fox-not-really-news-says-axelrod-028417

And straight from the horse's mouth (via Rolling Stone):

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/obama-in-command-br-the-rolling-stone-interview-20100928

Did you catch that populist dig, ie Fox is against the middle class, in other words "us".

And for what it's worth, at least the Times saw this coming and wasn't screeching about how Trump represented a threat to journalism. The big difference between Obama and Trump seems to be that Trump is a jack donkey to your face.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-trump-targets-journalists-thank-obama.html

I find great irony that the same people who routinely used the term Faux News are now gravely concerned about the actual term Fake News. Ain't life fun.

But, point out to me where the previous president (or any of his spokespeople/surrogates) called the press 'the enemy of the American people'.  I'll wait.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 21, 2017, 08:31:02 am
This is what the alt-right, Breitbart world view is - from their lead spokesperson. This is why they are defending and rationalizing and excusing Trump's pedophilia with the 15 and 16 year old girls at the Miss Teen USA pageants he used to own and run.   It is very clear, open, and even bragged about both from this guy and Trump when he talked about walking into the dressing rooms so he could make sure everything was ok.   

There is no ambiguity.  There is only the question of whether one condones and excuses that action or not.  And 40%+ of this country do - everyone who voted for Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/milo-yiannopoulos-slammed-defending-pedophilia-113103431.html







Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 21, 2017, 09:09:54 am
But, point out to me where the previous president (or any of his spokespeople/surrogates) called the press 'the enemy of the American people'.  I'll wait.

Tomato, Tom-a-to. I'm not going to make you happy. If you don't see it, that's your world view. You obviously are fine with it if it is said eloquently. But not when a jack donkey says it. So spare me your righteous indignation when Trump does things that Obama did for 8 years. And you're right, what Trump did pales in comparison to what Obama ACTUALLY did, you know, spying, prosecuting whistle blowers, etc. Pretty chilling effect on the free press if you ask me. Far more so than Trump saying they are an enemy. Truthfully, if Trump said that the press was an enemy to his administration that would have been a factual statement.

My stance is, that it sucks when they both do it. But I'm just not as "surprised" as many on this board appear to be when it happens. And I can call a spade a spade. Trump is frighteningly similar to recent politicians that it makes many squeamish. The screaming of how horrible he is or how he has taken things to a new extreme is just laughable when you only have to point at how much further the last president took it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 21, 2017, 09:16:08 am
Tomato, Tom-a-to. I'm not going to make you happy. If you don't see it, that's your world view. You obviously are fine with it if it is said eloquently. But not when a jack donkey says it. So spare me your righteous indignation when Trump does things that Obama did for 8 years. And you're right, what Trump did pales in comparison to what Obama ACTUALLY did, you know, spying, prosecuting whistle blowers, etc. Pretty chilling effect on the free press if you ask me. Far more so than Trump saying they are an enemy. Truthfully, if Trump said that the press was an enemy to his administration that would have been a factual statement.

My stance is, that it sucks when they both do it. But I'm just not as "surprised" as many on this board appear to be when it happens. And I can call a spade a spade. Trump is frighteningly similar to recent politicians that it makes many squeamish. The screaming of how horrible he is or how he has taken things to a new extreme is just laughable when you only have to point at how much further the last president took it.

I'm still waiting....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 21, 2017, 09:25:25 am
I'm still waiting....

The childishness level and pettiness is being taken to another level on this board.

I point out things Obama actually did, but you are concerned with what someone said because I assume fillings are more important to journalists than loosing your livelihood or being thrown in prison.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 21, 2017, 09:36:15 am
The childishness level and pettiness is being taken to another level on this board.

I point out things Obama actually did, but you are concerned with what someone said because I assume fillings are more important to journalists than loosing your livelihood or being thrown in prison.

Your hatred of 44 is evident.  We know that.   I'm pointing out that NO OTHER President in history has called the press 'the enemy of the American people'.  I'm asking you to cite a source if you can of this happening.  You can't.

I'm not comparing what Obama did.  Sure, he had some hatred of some parts of the press.  I don't believe he ever called them, as a whole, 'fake news', or the 'enemy'.

I don't see where it's childish to point out something that hasn't happened in politics EVER.  You do.  That's your opinion.  But I will never back down on this.  45's rhetoric is dangerous right now.  Even some in his own party acknowledge this.  Why is it so difficult for others.

And stop using the boilerplate 'it's politics'.  No, it's not.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on February 21, 2017, 09:46:34 am
erp, for contrast to #45 consider this view of government/press relations in a changing world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdMbmdFOvTs&feature=share


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 21, 2017, 01:59:03 pm
The list of what Obama did is definitely not right.  I can understand on some potential national security issues that they would try to figure out who the leaks are.  Much like Trump is doing now.  Fake News and descredited the news is one thing.  You have some great articles about what Obama did. And those are so far worse than what Trump has done.
I'm not sure we have gone a day without at least one attack on the media. Its very weird and it has escalated.  Just because there is due process doesn't mean you can't get arrested.  When it stops escalating people will have a reason to calm down.  The trajectory currently isn't good.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on February 21, 2017, 02:17:45 pm
The list of what Obama did is definitely not right.  I can understand on some potential national security issues that they would try to figure out who the leaks are.  Much like Trump is doing now.  Fake News and descredited the news is one thing.  You have some great articles about what Obama did. And those are so far worse than what Trump has done.
I'm not sure we have gone a day without at least one attack on the media. Its very weird and it has escalated.  Just because there is due process doesn't mean you can't get arrested.  When it stops escalating people will have a reason to calm down.  The trajectory currently isn't good.

Fair enough, I'll grant you that. I didn't say Trump wasn't a childish ignoramus for goodness sake (he is). And he says incredibly incendiary things (he does). But his actions thus far do not warrant the hyperbole that I see on a daily basis.

And thus far it is politics. While it may not be politics in the same vein that we are accustomed, I think Trump (or those directing him what to do) thinks this will aide him in accomplishing whatever it is he wants to accomplish. I see Trump as more of a provacator, as I imagine many around the world do. A side show of sorts. However, I just don't see that really translating into the doom and gloom that I read every day.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 21, 2017, 04:26:43 pm
Fair enough, I'll grant you that. I didn't say Trump wasn't a childish ignoramus for goodness sake (he is). And he says incredibly incendiary things (he does). But his actions thus far do not warrant the hyperbole that I see on a daily basis.




Actually, his actions warrant criminal prosecution.  At least for the pedophilia activities.   And inviting Russia to hack the US government is pretty much the definition of treason.

And his actions thus far warrant much more hyperbole than seen in a daily basis.  Except to his apologists.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 22, 2017, 12:58:31 pm

Trifecta...maybe it will get to someone.


https://www.facebook.com/AwarenessAct/videos/1295228900491644/



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 22, 2017, 01:45:24 pm
Trifecta...maybe it will get to someone.


https://www.facebook.com/AwarenessAct/videos/1295228900491644/



Don't have to worry about it for me...I watched every episode and wished there would have been more seasons...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 22, 2017, 05:23:38 pm
It has become dramatically more pertinent since 2012.  And visibly more so every day for the last month or so.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 24, 2017, 10:08:40 am
On the news at CPAC "They shouldn't be allowed to use sources unless they use somebody's name" -Trump


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on February 24, 2017, 10:45:21 am
Trump's now taking a fourth vacation in his first five weeks, four weekends in a row. Going back to the club to drum up some more of that sweet, sweet membership fee money, mingling with the common folk. And going to meet with major Republican donors, you know, the billionaires and Goldman Sachs execs that didn't pay quite enough to actually be in his cabinet. Trump just keeps on draining that swamp.

And this means another $3 million to taxpayers for his vacay. That's $12 million in one month. At that rate he's going to cost us ~$148 million in a year for vacations. That's not even counting what is spent for his sons to go all over the world on "business" and his wife to stay in New York.

$148 million is a good number too. Because that's how much the fed spends annually on the National Endowment for the Arts. Funding the White House wants to end, you know, to "save money". Fiscal responsibility first and all.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 24, 2017, 10:52:00 am
Trump's now taking a fourth vacation in his first five weeks, four weekends in a row. Going back to the club to drum up some more of that sweet, sweet membership fee money, mingling with the common folk. And going to meet with major Republican donors, you know, the billionaires and Goldman Sachs execs that didn't pay quite enough to actually be in his cabinet. Trump just keeps on draining that swamp.

And this means another $3 million to taxpayers for his vacay. That's $12 million in one month. At that rate he's going to cost us ~$148 million in a year for vacations. That's not even counting what is spent for his sons to go all over the world on "business" and his wife to stay in New York.

$148 million is a good number too. Because that's how much the fed spends annually on the National Endowment for the Arts. Funding the White House wants to end, you know, to "save money". Fiscal responsibility first and all.



Wasn't Trump the one who said he wouldn't be taking any golfing vacations because he'd be 'too busy'.  Yeah, like I thought that's how it would play out.

I keep hearing Danny DeVito's Penguin character from Batman Returns "You gotta admit, I played this city like a harp from hell" when I hear of stuff like this.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 24, 2017, 01:37:23 pm
Trump's now taking a fourth vacation in his first five weeks, four weekends in a row. Going back to the club to drum up some more of that sweet, sweet membership fee money, mingling with the common folk. And going to meet with major Republican donors, you know, the billionaires and Goldman Sachs execs that didn't pay quite enough to actually be in his cabinet. Trump just keeps on draining that swamp.

And this means another $3 million to taxpayers for his vacay. That's $12 million in one month. At that rate he's going to cost us ~$148 million in a year for vacations. That's not even counting what is spent for his sons to go all over the world on "business" and his wife to stay in New York.

$148 million is a good number too. Because that's how much the fed spends annually on the National Endowment for the Arts. Funding the White House wants to end, you know, to "save money". Fiscal responsibility first and all.




I am gonna blatantly plagiarize this....  Thanks!!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 24, 2017, 01:50:10 pm
And now, there's this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/politics/white-house-sean-spicer-briefing.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 24, 2017, 01:54:15 pm
CNN, BBC, Politico, NY Times, LA times is the list so far banned.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 24, 2017, 02:08:45 pm
I'm waiting for the regulars to get on here and say this is 'normal'.

 ::)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on February 24, 2017, 02:40:53 pm
This is not normal.

In the past certain events were blocked to ALL media, but not ever before (that I can find) has individual media outlets been banned. IMO, he has now taken things to another level.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 24, 2017, 02:58:13 pm
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4658334/spicer (https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4658334/spicer)

Also, LOL Spicer said this is what dictatorships do.

Don't worry, if they don't get too much negative feedback they will slowly add to the ban.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 24, 2017, 03:22:23 pm
I'm waiting for the regulars to get on here and say this is 'normal'.

 ::)

"It's normal when I do it!"


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 24, 2017, 03:27:48 pm
December 16, 2016:

Q:"One of the things the Trump campaign gained notariety for was banning outlets, banning reporters..."

Spicer:  "Right."

Q: "You said, I think, that's not going to happen..."

Spicer: "I think there is a big different between a campaign, where it is a private venue using private funds and a government entity.  I think we have a respect for the press, when it comes to the government.  That is something you can't ban an entity from.  Conservative, liberal or otherwise.  That's what makes a democracy a democracy versus a dictatorship. So I think there is a vastly different model when it comes to government and what should be acceptable..."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4658334/spicer

Today:

White House Bars New York Times and Other Outlets from Briefing (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/politics/white-house-sean-spicer-briefing.html)

White House Blocks News Organization from Press Briefings (http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/24/media/cnn-blocked-white-house-gaggle/index.html)

After Trump calls media an enemy of the people, White House bars many news outlets from briefing (http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-after-trump-calls-fake-news-enemy-of-1487963297-htmlstory.html)

White House selectively blocks media outlets from briefing with Spicer (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/reporters-blocked-white-house-gaggle-235360)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 24, 2017, 03:29:31 pm
December 16, 2016:

Q:"One of the things the Trump campaign gained notariety for was banning outlets, banning reporters..."

Spicer:  "Right."

Q: "You said, I think, that's not going to happen..."

Spicer: "I think there is a big different between a campaign, where it is a private venue using private funds and a government entity.  I think we have a respect for the press, when it comes to the government.  That is something you can't ban an entity from.  Conservative, liberal or otherwise.  That's what makes a democracy a democracy versus a dictatorship. So I think there is a vastly different model when it comes to government and what should be acceptable..."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4658334/spicer

Today:

White House Bars New York Times and Other Outlets from Briefing (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/us/politics/white-house-sean-spicer-briefing.html)

White House Blocks News Organization from Press Briefings (http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/24/media/cnn-blocked-white-house-gaggle/index.html)

After Trump calls media an enemy of the people, White House bars many news outlets from briefing (http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-after-trump-calls-fake-news-enemy-of-1487963297-htmlstory.html)

White House selectively blocks media outlets from briefing with Spicer (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/reporters-blocked-white-house-gaggle-235360)


Oops.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on February 24, 2017, 04:53:11 pm
Oops.

Frost: Would you say that there are certain situations - and the Huston Plan was one of them - where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation, and do something illegal?

Nixon: Well, when the president does it, that means it is not illegal.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 25, 2017, 07:47:25 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cH86JWAAAKCnh.jpg
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cH86JWAAAKCnh.jpg)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on February 25, 2017, 08:45:41 pm
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/25/517257273/trump-will-be-first-president-in-36-years-to-skip-white-house-correspondents-din

Trumplethinskin indeed.  What a baby.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 26, 2017, 09:11:07 am
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cH86JWAAAKCnh.jpg
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cH86JWAAAKCnh.jpg)



Selfie?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 26, 2017, 10:33:56 pm
Selfie?

CPAC prank






WASHINGTON (AP) — The federal prison population is on the decline, but a new attorney general who talks tough on drugs and crime and already has indicated a looming need for private prisons (http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-sessions-tough-on-crime-talk-could-lead-to-fuller-prisons-2017-2) seems poised to usher in a reversal of that trend.

Nearly half of federal prisoners are in custody for drug offenses, and the Bureau of Prisons budget accounts for about one-third of the department's overall $29 billion spending plan. The population ballooned during the 1980s-era war on drugs as Congress abolished parole and as federal prosecutors relied on mandatory minimum sentences — rigid punishments strictly tied to drug quantity — to seek decades-long prison terms for drug criminals.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 27, 2017, 10:06:10 am
Selfie?

Wedding photo.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 27, 2017, 01:00:59 pm
Wedding photo.


??

Trump marrying a 15 year old girl ??   

Sounds about right.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 27, 2017, 03:12:47 pm
Just found the CPAC picture of all the rest of his fans waving their Russian flags too....  Sweet !!


How about a little Beatles moment to commemorate the fanboys and their flags...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVFuTIGUhTk



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 27, 2017, 03:48:49 pm

??

Trump marrying a 15 year old girl ??   

Sounds about right.


I guess it’s like the joke about the condom.

Completely over my head.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 28, 2017, 08:53:33 am
I guess it’s like the joke about the condom.

Completely over my head.


Wasn't a joke...I was a little confused by that pic at first... guy that kinda had the Trump hair thing going on sitting next to a young girl.  The natural association, based on his past behavior, would be that Trump was 'grooming' the next Mrs. T.  

Then found the CPAC connection so became more clear...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on February 28, 2017, 11:14:00 am

Wasn't a joke...I was a little confused by that pic at first... guy that kinda had the Trump hair thing going on sitting next to a young girl.  The natural association, based on his past behavior, would be that Trump was 'grooming' the next Mrs. T.  

Then found the CPAC connection so became more clear...


I’m not a great student of social studies these days, the Russian flag was lost on me.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 28, 2017, 03:08:34 pm
I’m not a great student of social studies these days, the Russian flag was lost on me.


I have trouble keeping up...it's always a battle.  But if I don't, the grandkids really let me have it, so just keep on keepin' on...




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 02, 2017, 09:09:04 am
Now Jeff Sessions has been caught talking to Russia during the campaign. He spoke twice with the Russian Ambassador, which in itself might not have been a big deal but he testified under oath during his confirmation hearings in Congress that he had no contact with Russia. That’s criminal perjury. And now he’s the Attorney General of the United States. A position that under normal circumstances he would have to resign.

It’s another tie to Russia and another huge stain on the young Trump presidency.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 02, 2017, 11:05:53 am
Not only did Session lie about talking to the Russians, he talked to Russian Ambassador in September in his office but also at the Republican Convention?

Quote
According to the Justice Department, Sessions met with Kislyak in July on the sidelines of the Republican convention

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/politics/democrats-sessions-russia-resignation-call/

What in he!! was the Russian Ambassador doing at the Republican Convention?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on March 02, 2017, 11:48:01 am

What in he!! was the Russian Ambassador doing at the Republican Convention?


Pulling strings?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2017, 12:52:02 pm
So ??   It's Trump Clown Show - and 'Murica don't care...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 02, 2017, 02:17:31 pm
Quote
SEN. AL FRANKEN: "If there was any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this (2016) campaign, what would you do?,"

SESSIONS: "I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians."

Quote
“Several of the President-elect’s nominees or senior advisers have Russian ties. Have you been in contact with anyone connected to any part of the Russian government about the 2016 election, either before or after election day?”

Sessions responded with one word: “No.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-spoke-twice-with-russian-ambassador-during-trumps-presidential-campaign-justice-officials-say/2017/03/01/77205eda-feac-11e6-99b4-9e613afeb09f_story.html?utm_term=.498185dc7002

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/politics/russia-jeff-sessions-confirmation-hearing/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2017, 05:27:40 pm
So he lied under oath at least twice to Congress.  Over important stuff.

And that same Clown Show went all "hair on fire" over Billy Bob lying about some hanky-panky in the Oval office...while the main inquisitor (Newt) was doing much worse with his harlot du jour at that same time....

Perspective...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 02, 2017, 11:59:46 pm
Where were you guys when this guy was facing claims of perjury?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/02/eric-holder-perjury_n_3374867.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on March 03, 2017, 06:47:24 am
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-spoke-twice-with-russian-ambassador-during-trumps-presidential-campaign-justice-officials-say/2017/03/01/77205eda-feac-11e6-99b4-9e613afeb09f_story.html?utm_term=.498185dc7002

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/politics/russia-jeff-sessions-confirmation-hearing/

Now he's saying he misunderstood the questions. And Trump is saying he fully supports Sessions.

The Secretary is toast.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 03, 2017, 07:57:54 am
Where were you guys when this guy was facing claims of perjury?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/02/eric-holder-perjury_n_3374867.html


Haven't commented about that particular incident, but this is a quote I made a couple years ago about Holder.  Still true.

"Obama's gangsters in the form of Eric Holder, significant portions of the Department of Justice, and the BATF are actively engaged in a concerted effort to destroy the RIGHTS enclosed within that document. "

Gangsters and criminals on either side are bad and should be in prison.  Holder would fit that mold nicely as far as I am concerned.


Now, how about we talk about Bush and his 22 million deleted emails...??  Or the 87 people killed in diplomatic facility attacks during his regime?  Or the war crimes his regime committed using torture?  Exactly what is the statute of limitations on war crimes?   As Trump has pledged to do again...  Or criminal sexual assault by Trump?  

So many crimes to sweep under the rug - it's a wonder there is still time to insult Gold Star Families, POW's, insult the military, and ridicule the handicapped...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 03, 2017, 08:18:04 am
So he lied under oath at least twice to Congress.  Over important stuff.

And that same Clown Show went all "hair on fire" over Billy Bob lying about some hanky-panky in the Oval office...while the main inquisitor (Newt) was doing much worse with his harlot du jour at that same time....

Perspective...

"harlot du jour" just caught this. love it!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 03, 2017, 02:10:49 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-spoke-twice-with-russian-ambassador-during-trumps-presidential-campaign-justice-officials-say/2017/03/01/77205eda-feac-11e6-99b4-9e613afeb09f_story.html?utm_term=.498185dc7002

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/02/politics/russia-jeff-sessions-confirmation-hearing/

I think they are probably going to get a big fat swing and a miss on this one. I'm no lawyer, but I don't see the perjury here. He was asked about a scenario involving Russian involvement in 2016 election. He said he didn't talk to them about that (in not so eloquent of way). Can you all prove that he did. He was a sitting Senator who more than likely has talked with dozens if not hundreds of different ambassadors throughout his tenure. I don't have time to find the link to the story, but the scenario at the RNC that he "met/spoke" with the Ruskie was set up by the justice department I believe (I could be wrong, so don't crucify me). And this same fellow has made the rounds including dozens of white house trips. Unless you can somehow conjure up some evidence that Sessions was conspiring with the Russians, he is well within his role to be talking with them about a slew of topics I'm sure.

I'm no fan of Paul Ryan, but I think he nailed it when he said the hooplah over this is going to result in a big fat "nothing burger".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 03, 2017, 03:08:24 pm
On September 8th  2016, Sessions who has been an adviser to the Trump campaign for well over a year at that point meets with the Russian Ambassador.
 
Quote
FRANKEN: CNN just published a story alleging that the intelligence community provided documents to the president-elect last week, that included information that “Russian operatives claim to have compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump.” These documents also allegedly say “there was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian government.” Again, I’m telling you this as it’s coming out, so, you know.
But if it’s true, it’s obviously extremely serious, and if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do?
SESSIONS: Senator Franken, I’m not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I did not have communications with the Russians, and I’m unable to comment on it.

Franken never asked Sessions if he had been in contact with Russia. Sessions volunteered that he had no contact with Russia, and did not qualify that statement in any way. He volunteered that he indeed was involved with the campaign and stated he had no contact with Russia and therefore he had no information. No qualification about no contact regarding the campaign, he stated “I did not have communications with the Russians”. His statement is very clear. And was a clear and documented lie.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 03, 2017, 03:28:04 pm
On September 8th  2016, Sessions who has been an adviser to the Trump campaign for well over a year at that point meets with the Russian Ambassador.
  
Franken never asked Sessions if he had been in contact with Russia. Sessions volunteered that he had no contact with Russia, and did not qualify that statement in any way. He volunteered that he indeed was involved with the campaign and stated he had no contact with Russia and therefore he had no information. No qualification about no contact regarding the campaign, he stated “I did not have communications with the Russians”. His statement is very clear. And was a clear and documented lie.

Hmm...in legal parlance, isn't that called perjury when under oath?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 03, 2017, 05:30:07 pm
"harlot du jour" just caught this. love it!


I usually get censored using that word and the "whore" word when referring to Newt Gingrich's latest future ex-Mrs. Gingrich.  I guess it was missed this time.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 04, 2017, 02:50:48 am
Wasn't Trump the one who said he wouldn't be taking any golfing vacations because he'd be 'too busy'.  Yeah, like I thought that's how it would play out.

I keep hearing Danny DeVito's Penguin character from Batman Returns "You gotta admit, I played this city like a harp from hell" when I hear of stuff like this.



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zghejXUAEuJJU.jpg:large)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 04, 2017, 10:46:52 am
Time for the next distraction:

    Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    Just out: The same Russian Ambassador that met Jeff Sessions visited the Obama White House 22 times, and 4 times last year alone.
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    Is it legal for a sitting President to be "wire tapping" a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 04, 2017, 11:01:37 am
Desperate desperado.

Sources? Facts? Trump don't need no stinkin' sources and he has his own facts! Is it just coincidental that Obama, one of the best organizers ever, now has the time and the relationships necessary to do some real political organizing, thus another in a long list of enemies to the liar in chief? I think not.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 04, 2017, 11:08:06 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zghejXUAEuJJU.jpg:large)

Looks like the resident drive-by poster is up posting at all hours of the morning.  Hmm...wonder who else has that same habit?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 04, 2017, 11:09:06 am
Time for the next distraction:

    Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    Just out: The same Russian Ambassador that met Jeff Sessions visited the Obama White House 22 times, and 4 times last year alone.
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    Is it legal for a sitting President to be "wire tapping" a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

    How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 4, 2017

This guy....LOL.  What a maroon.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 04, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Organizing For Action is getting traction and Obama is involved. That's why #45 has a bad case of blue balls.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 04, 2017, 12:14:11 pm
Organizing For Action is getting traction and Obama is involved. That's why #45 has a bad case of blue balls.



You win the Internet today for that....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 04, 2017, 03:35:59 pm
So either Trump has been informed of a formerly secret FISA warrant against Trump and company as part of a FBI investigation and he and/or his campaign are about to formally accused criminal activity relating to Russia and the election or he's lying again to deflect criticism.

Either way, it's time for Trump to leave office.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 04, 2017, 08:16:46 pm
So either Trump has been informed of a formerly secret FISA warrant against Trump and company as part of a FBI investigation and he and/or his campaign are about to formally accused criminal activity relating to Russia and the election or he's lying again to deflect criticism.

Either way, it's time for Trump to leave office.

That or he found the "wiretap" button on the Presedential phone set.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 04, 2017, 09:38:34 pm
That or he found the "wiretap" button on the Presedential phone set.

The way he talked about his phones being tapped was out of 1960's era spy movies. Comical and childish.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 04, 2017, 11:42:38 pm
The way he talked about his phones being tapped was out of 1960's era spy movies. Comical and childish.

Agreed.  Photoshoppers have been hard at work over this news:

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17155793_1896357890608941_3709156990431355443_n.jpg?oh=20f9a73f661a5f5f36d90e6f5edac3b2&oe=5972E5F6)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 04, 2017, 11:57:10 pm
The way he talked about his phones being tapped was out of 1960's era spy movies. Comical and childish.

i didn't catch the inflection since it was done 140 characters or less at a time


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 06, 2017, 09:00:48 am
This could get very interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.00635692426f


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2017, 10:16:39 am
This could get very interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.00635692426f

Perhaps he got it from the National Enquirier? 

This guy gets more bizarre by the day.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 11:00:05 am
i didn't catch the inflection since it was done 140 characters or less at a time


This specifically:
Quote
Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!

That sounds like they went into his office and put a bug in his desk phone and are across the street in a van listening it. That’s not how it works. If they are listening to your calls, they (FBI, NSA, whoever) present a warrant to your telecom providers and are logging into the phone switch remotely and are copying all the data that flows to and from your phone, not just phone calls. They don’t care where in the world you and phone are, be it cell phone or land line. Trump Tower isn’t “tapped”, Trump Tower is irrelevant.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 06, 2017, 11:40:16 am
This could get very interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.00635692426f

Let me preface this by saying that what I am about to say is in no way making a claim one way or another on the matter at hand.

That being said, I find it quite comical to read an article decrying anonymous sources from the Washington Post. Come on, now that's funny stuff right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 06, 2017, 11:53:14 am
That being said, I find it quite comical to read an article decrying anonymous sources from the Washington Post. Come on, now that's funny stuff right?

You mean the very thing the Washington Post talked about in the article?

Quote
It’s certainly ironic that the Trump White House — which has heavily criticized articles relying on anonymous sources — now relies on articles based on anonymous sources that cite information that has not  been confirmed by any U.S. news organization. It would be amusing if it were not so sad.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.325e7b820d55



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 06, 2017, 12:18:27 pm
You mean the very thing the Washington Post talked about in the article?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.325e7b820d55



Exactly.

They are complaining about something that in the same breath they are doing. Just funny that's all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 06, 2017, 12:41:24 pm
Exactly.

They are complaining about something that in the same breath they are doing. Just funny that's all.

Completely a false equivalency.  The Post examined the claim in detail.  They don't just laugh it off because the source isn't revealed.  They look at available evidence, other outlets attempts at finding sources, and the credibility of the outlets citing the anonymous sources.

A major news outlet like the Washington Post, BBC, New York Times, CNN, the WSJ or Fox News puts its credibility on the line even when using trusted anonymous sources. When they are wrong it costs them credibility, damages the brand, reduces viewership/readership, loses revenue, and people can get fired.   They are wrong sometimes and are forced to eat crow, but the vast majority of the time they turn out to be correct. It usually makes news when they are wrong - their competitors love to point it out.

When fringe news sites repeat conspiracy theories with no evidence, they suffer no consequence when they are wrong.  Day in and day out, the internet shrugs and moves on.  An outlet citing anonymous sources for captive aliens at Area 51 does not have the same credibility as the Wall Street Journal reporting insider trading, just because they both cited anonymous sources.  Its a false equivalency. 

Seriously, go read the article I linked.  Ready any article on it that tries to unravel the "sources" of the "Obama wire tapped me" claims. 

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/examining-trumps-wiretap-claim/
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/06/media/mark-levin-joel-pollak-breitbart-trump-obama/

Also worth noting that your response is lock-step with PR machine of the administration:

Quote
Both Sanders and Conway said the president is the victim of a double standard, in which reporting on ties between individuals close to Trump and the Russian government is allowed but the allegation of illegal wiretapping by Obama is dismissed and criticized. Conway complained that anonymous sources are too often given credence in negative stories about the president and then ignored “when it may be something positive or exculpatory.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/donald-trump-wiretapping-obama-aides-response-235719


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 01:22:24 pm
I personally would like to see Trump’s evidence. Does he keep that evidence in the same folder with his voter fraud evidence? Because after all this time it would be good to see that too. You know the evidence of 3-5 million  fraudulent votes that he gave to Pence’s blue ribbon investigation team that he announced a month ago. You know, that could be serious, like make every election nationally invalid serious.

We need a Do Over here.


Maybe he’s also got all that stuff on Obama’s birth certificate there too?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2017, 01:42:55 pm


When fringe news sites repeat conspiracy theories with no evidence, they suffer no consequence when they are wrong.  Day in and day out, the internet shrugs and moves on.  An outlet citing anonymous sources for captive aliens at Area 51 does not have the same credibility as the Wall Street Journal reporting insider trading, just because they both cited anonymous sources.  Its a false equivalency. 




And why wouldn't the alien source be credible??  It's on the internet - and they can't lie if it's on the internet....

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 06, 2017, 05:15:10 pm
Perhaps he got it from the National Enquirier? 

This guy gets more bizarre by the day.

National Enquirer nailed Clenis. just sayin.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 06, 2017, 05:16:23 pm
Perfectly rationale behavior. Language warning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmLfCHF3skk


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2017, 05:38:55 pm
I keep conjuring Captain Queeg.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1bngr9.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cuu-6XzWcAATkmT.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2017, 05:52:57 pm
All humor aside, Trump has done nothing to endear himself to the intelligence community and DOJ which seems pretty dangerous to me.  Our national security depends on a good and reliable relationship between intel and the executive branch, something that does not appear to be the case now.

The other part is, I imagine the intelligence community knows far more about Trump and his past than just the allegations of playing around with Russian hookers.  I don’t think I’d love with these guys if I were him, even if he thinks it’s serving a purpose of distraction, something he seems to be a master at.

This was a pretty good op-ed I read over lunch.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/03/06/daily-202-wiretapping-allegations-accomplished-what-trump-wanted-but-may-backfire-bigly/58bca8bde9b69b1406c75d42/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_daily202-1045a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4b829b7cbd65


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 06:00:40 pm
Yesterday, Sunday, my family went to church at my wife's parents church as part of spending the day with my wife's mother, it was her birthday. It's a small Native American church, American Baptist. They had a group of visitors from Bacone College, kids studying ministry at Bacone.

All these kids are from Burma, immigrants, refugees. They came to America to escape the persecution of Christians and the poverty in Burma. They shared stories about their lives before they came here. Houses with no beds that rainwater just moved right through. Lack of food, no doctors. Soldiers destroying make shift homes and killing relatives, running for their very lives and never seeing their families again. It was very moving. I was inspired that these young people had overcome so much and now are on the verge of graduating from college. That they came here and can be part of our great American experiment is our strength as a country.

And today Trump put back into place his refugee ban.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2017, 06:51:06 pm

And today Trump put back into place his refugee ban.


Sans the Iraqis.  We must have suddenly improved the vetting of travelers from Iraq.  ::)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 06, 2017, 07:18:08 pm
Sans the Iraqis.  We must have suddenly improved the vetting of travelers from Iraq.  ::)

No, he banned ALL refugees for 120 days. He banned all travel by those six countries.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2017, 08:36:47 pm
No, he banned ALL refugees for 120 days. He banned all travel by those six countries.

Sorry, I can’t keep up with all his frenetic activity.  Can you blame me?  I mean this admin is kind of a walking fustercluck.

WaPo is reporting our annual quota will be cut from 110K established by Obama to 50K. 

It’s not like there are not other countries with the capability to humanely host more refugees.  We have gone beyond broke being the first to offer aid and offering to be the world’s top cop.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 07, 2017, 11:34:13 am
It’s not like there are not other countries with the capability to humanely host more refugees.  We have gone beyond broke being the first to offer aid and offering to be the world’s top cop.

The interesting thing is the world hates him so much when he does something they seem to respond in the opposite manner.  Like the money he withdrew from any sort of international family planning education.  Somebody else increased their spending what we decreased it.  It paid for part of his weekly Florida trips.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 07, 2017, 12:07:52 pm
Let me preface this by saying that what I am about to say is in no way making a claim one way or another on the matter at hand.

That being said, I find it quite comical to read an article decrying anonymous sources from the Washington Post. Come on, now that's funny stuff right?

There was only one source.  The other stories cited as a source were derivative of the first.

What a twist of irony that a move meant to distract from the Russia controversy would end up pointing to an alleged Trump server processing illegal payments from Russia.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 07, 2017, 02:32:31 pm

That sounds like they went into his office and put a bug in his desk phone and are across the street in a van listening it. That’s not how it works. If they are listening to your calls, they (FBI, NSA, whoever) present a warrant to your telecom providers and are logging into the phone switch remotely and are copying all the data that flows to and from your phone, not just phone calls. They don’t care where in the world you and phone are, be it cell phone or land line. Trump Tower isn’t “tapped”, Trump Tower is irrelevant.


The current state of affairs is that any Podunk PD can have a "cell tower simulator" for the asking as long as they keep it secret.
Apparently they come with the keys to the new MRAP.

Now maybe Trump will come out against unwarranted mass-surveillance of Americans?


In the case of a tool called “Weeping Angel” for attacking Samsung SmartTVs, Wikileaks wrote, “After infestation, Weeping Angel places the target TV in a 'Fake-Off' mode, so that the owner falsely believes the TV is off when it is on, In 'Fake-Off' mode the TV operates as a bug, recording conversations in the room and sending them over the Internet to a covert CIA server.”

"The argument that there is some terrorist using a Samsung TV somewhere – as a reason to not disclose that vulnerability to the company, when it puts thousands of Americans at risk"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/03/07/why-the-cia-is-using-your-tvs-smartphones-and-cars-for-spying/


...or not.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 08, 2017, 02:06:30 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/YtQ2DpP.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 12, 2017, 10:27:57 am
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ejkTq-K3L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

So of course Trump fired him.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/drain-swamp-supporters-say-fired-prosecutor-bharara-was-doing-it-n732331



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2017, 11:44:46 am
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ejkTq-K3L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

So of course Trump fired him.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/drain-swamp-supporters-say-fired-prosecutor-bharara-was-doing-it-n732331



The same could be said for prosecutors each previous admin has fired.  Clearly the press is trying to pile on as if this is something significant or unusual for Trump to do since they don't mention until five or six paragraphs in the fact all admins tend to replace US Attorneys with their own appointees.

I'm still no fan of Drumpf, but the constant stream of hit jobs from what was once considered more MSM is getting tiresome.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 12, 2017, 12:51:31 pm
The same could be said for prosecutors each previous admin has fired.  Clearly the press is trying to pile on as if this is something significant or unusual for Trump to do since they don't mention until five or six paragraphs in the fact all admins tend to replace US Attorneys with their own appointees.

And yet they do mention it.  I would think a hit-job wouldnt.  Nor possibly include this:

New York State Assemblyman Steve McLaughlin, a Republican who was an adopter of Trump's "drain the swamp" pledge, Tweeted "Definitely not a wise move at all." 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 12, 2017, 02:09:54 pm
Roger Stone now admits to contact via Twitter direct messages with Guiccifer 2.0, says the messages were "innocuous". Guiccifer of course being Russian Intelligence.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/03/11/trump-confidant-roger-stone-admits-to-speaking-privately-with-dnc-hacker/21880014/ (https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/03/11/trump-confidant-roger-stone-admits-to-speaking-privately-with-dnc-hacker/21880014/)

So we know that Russia hacked the election. Even Trump admits that. We know that many people in the Trump Campaign had contacts with Russia. Two so far have been proven to be lying about those contacts and now we have admitted direct contact between the Trump campaign and Russian Intelligence. 

Fake news huh?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 13, 2017, 08:28:39 am
The same could be said for prosecutors each previous admin has fired.  Clearly the press is trying to pile on as if this is something significant or unusual for Trump to do since they don't mention until five or six paragraphs in the fact all admins tend to replace US Attorneys with their own appointees.

I'm still no fan of Drumpf, but the constant stream of hit jobs from what was once considered more MSM is getting tiresome.

No. Don't fall for this.  THIS ISNT NORMAL.

First, it is true that most US Attorneys are replaced.  Not only is that good because a new administration can put in US Attorneys with their goals in mind, but it is also good that US Attorneys don't create fiefdoms.

But it is unusual for them to be dismissed so suddenly when replacements aren't even being considered. That is true across the board here, most of the positions that the administrations have dismissed in all agencies sit vacant.  No list, no appointment, no path towards confirmation.  Just major governmental posts told to immediately leave, and many positions unoccupied.  Nearly 2000 of them (most do not require confirmation).

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/25/politics/donald-trump-cabinet-vacancies/


Second, this guy was told he could keep his job. Donald Trump told him he could keep his job, then told him to quit. That's not normal.


Third, The Donald tried to contact him directly.  To maintain the independence of US Attorneys, they are not allowed supposed to be in direct contact with the President (lest everyone say XYZ investigation was tainted with political pressure).  The subordinate had to dodge a "you're fired" call from the President of the United States to avoid an ethics violation.  That's not normal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/us/politics/preet-bharara-us-attorney.html?_r=0


Lets see if his investigation into Fox News goes away under the new appointment...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 13, 2017, 09:40:30 am
The same could be said for prosecutors each previous admin has fired.  Clearly the press is trying to pile on as if this is something significant or unusual for Trump to do since they don't mention until five or six paragraphs in the fact all admins tend to replace US Attorneys with their own appointees.

I'm still no fan of Drumpf, but the constant stream of hit jobs from what was once considered more MSM is getting tiresome.


Exactly what the RWRE wants you to feel.  When you become "numbed" to it, it becomes a "chicken little" event and you can comfortably sit back and declare it is tiresome and just put it out of your mind as ongoing MSM stuff.  And they win.  The tactic the RWRE is using is a fire-hose of s*** so exactly that response occurs.  Sad to see a recovering Republican sliding back into the apathy....


Another hit job on Scott Pruitt - macabre humor being tragically true;

https://www.facebook.com/edsteinink/videos/1435540643131872/



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 13, 2017, 10:51:14 am
No. Don't fall for this.  THIS ISNT NORMAL.

What is unusual is telling or strongly implying that you are going to extend the term of a US attorney into the new administration and then arbitrarily demanding his resignation. That is what Preet Bharara, the camera-ready and highly charismatic US attorney for the Southern District of New York, claims that President Trump did to him, and Bharara is plenty angry about it...
The investigation of possible ties between members of the Trump campaign team and Russian officials, and the President's claim that he was wiretapped in Trump Tower on orders of President Obama, will all lead back to the Southern District of New York.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/11/opinions/trump-beware-after-firing-bharara-callan/index.html

i.e., Bharara may have been investigating (or about to investigate) Trump.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 13, 2017, 02:54:05 pm
CBO has finished it’s scoring of Trumpcare. Implementing Trumpcare as proposed will mean that 24 million people will lose healthcare coverage by 2026.

24 million, that’s like the entire state of Texas. That’s fully 10% of our non-retired population.

It would save about $300 billion over the next decade, which is about half the amount Trump wants to increase military spending by.

Priorities people, it’s all about priorities.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cbo-congressional-budget-office-score-ahca-trumpcare-2017-3


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 15, 2017, 12:39:14 am
Sorry to see Danny Williams go. He is a very smart guy.

http://www.newson6.com/story/34772038/danny-williams-sr-resigns-as-tulsa-us-attorney

I did miss Mr. Williams's foot stomping, crying fit that Preet threw. Yes I know Preet is special, and the asking of the other 45 resignations was cover because Preet was close to prosecuting Trump for some problem with his 2005 tax return. And because it is totally normal that fired USA throw temper tantrums when they get fired.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 15, 2017, 12:59:45 am
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ejkTq-K3L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

So of course Trump fired him.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/drain-swamp-supporters-say-fired-prosecutor-bharara-was-doing-it-n732331



He fired lots of USAs. It happens. Preet is the only one that was so special he could whine about it. Just more of this as to the "implications" of a President Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avcyqp_10Yk


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 15, 2017, 05:33:49 pm
In new not unrelated news the Justice Department today indicted two Russian Intelligence hackers for the Yahoo hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-department-charging-russian-spies-and-criminal-hackers-for-yahoo-intrusion/2017/03/15/64b98e32-0911-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html?utm_term=.d202a9f594fb

The noose is tightening.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 16, 2017, 12:04:43 am
In new not unrelated news the Justice Department today indicted two Russian Intelligence hackers for the Yahoo hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-department-charging-russian-spies-and-criminal-hackers-for-yahoo-intrusion/2017/03/15/64b98e32-0911-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html?utm_term=.d202a9f594fb

The noose is tightening.

Wait a minute. Trump's Department of Justice just indicted some Russian hackers? Not Obama's DOJ (which was in place two years after that hack) but Trump's? I sure hope Trump got permission from his Russian overlords before brazenly doing something so pro-America.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 16, 2017, 07:37:29 am
Wait a minute. Trump's Department of Justice just indicted some Russian hackers? Not Obama's DOJ (which was in place two years after that hack) but Trump's? I sure hope Trump got permission from his Russian overlords before brazenly doing something so pro-America.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fLZubB22edw/maxresdefault.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 16, 2017, 08:57:28 am
Wait a minute. Trump's Department of Justice just indicted some Russian hackers? Not Obama's DOJ (which was in place two years after that hack) but Trump's? I sure hope Trump got permission from his Russian overlords before brazenly doing something so pro-America.


It's still Obama's DOJ... haven't you heard of 'deep state' ??   And Trump hasn't appointed a very large number of people yet - over 2,000 from last count I heard.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 17, 2017, 03:11:35 pm
And now, there's this.

Acting like a little leaguer who refuses to shake hands with opposing team after a loss.  Really dignified for the office of the President.   ::)

http://time.com/4705483/president-trump-angela-merkel-handshake/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 18, 2017, 11:53:02 am
And now, there's this.

Acting like a little leaguer who refuses to shake hands with opposing team after a loss.  Really dignified for the office of the President.   ::)

http://time.com/4705483/president-trump-angela-merkel-handshake/

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7NHLIgXUAAJQfW.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 18, 2017, 12:40:58 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7NHLIgXUAAJQfW.jpg)

I saw that this morning and almost posted it.  LOL.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 18, 2017, 02:24:43 pm
It's still Obama's DOJ... haven't you heard of 'deep state' ?? 

A former Texas congressman is accused of funneling a whopping $350,000 intended for trauma victims, into his failed U.S. Senate bid instead, according to FBI agents.
He blamed his arrest, which came as he traveled through the Bush Intercontinental Airport on Wednesday, on the so-called “deep state” — a shadowy cohort of government and military officials in cahoots to undermine President Trump. He faces charges of conspiracy to make conduit contributions and false statements.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ex-texas-pol-accused-funneling-350k-political-campaign-article-1.3001730



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on March 18, 2017, 03:26:40 pm
How long before the "deep state defense" becomes widespread? Ralph Shortey will latch onto this immediately.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2017, 09:54:49 am
Shortey is looking to use the "deep throat" line of defense. ;)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 20, 2017, 08:45:17 am
This...

http://liberaldarkness.com/2017/03/15/confirmed-27-men-contract-homosexuality-after-3d-theater-viewing-of-beauty-and-the-beast/


I'm thinking the people who are going all "hair on fire" monkey-butt stupid on this really are missing the whole point of how this really is a story about the promotion of bestiality and Stockholm Syndrome.


Maybe this 'method of indoctrination' is how Trump became a pedophile and sexual molester/predator - too much kiddy porn in his formative years!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 20, 2017, 08:47:13 am
This...

http://liberaldarkness.com/2017/03/15/confirmed-27-men-contract-homosexuality-after-3d-theater-viewing-of-beauty-and-the-beast/


I'm thinking the people who are going all "hair on fire" monkey-butt stupid on this really are missing the whole point of how this really is a story about the promotion of bestiality and Stockholm Syndrome.


Maybe this 'method of indoctrination' is how Trump became a pedophile and sexual molester/predator - too much kiddy porn in his formative years!



Just want to make sure that you realize that article is satire...if you knew that already, then apologies.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 20, 2017, 09:19:31 am
FBI Director Comey admits the worst kept secret in Washington. The FBI and Justice are formally investigating Russia and the Trump campaign and have been investigating since July.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-confirms-probe-russias-alleged-election-interference/story?id=46240979

Anyone still think this is nothing? Fake news?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on March 20, 2017, 09:53:08 am
Just want to make sure that you realize that article is satire...if you knew that already, then apologies.

Poe's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law) applies more now than ever


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 20, 2017, 10:10:19 am
FBI Director Comey admits the worst kept secret in Washington. The FBI and Justice are formally investigating Russia and the Trump campaign and have been investigating since July.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-confirms-probe-russias-alleged-election-interference/story?id=46240979

Anyone still think this is nothing? Fake news?

His supporters will say fake news.  They're all so gullible.  They got duped from the first day of his campaign.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 21, 2017, 12:56:50 pm
10 golf vacations in 8 weeks....


https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1493464957351656/


Just another lie...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 22, 2017, 07:27:27 am
Nothing to see here, nothing at all:

Quote
President Donald Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, secretly worked for a Russian billionaire to advance the interests of Russian President Vladimir Putin a decade ago and proposed an ambitious political strategy to undermine anti-Russian opposition across former Soviet republics, The Associated Press has learned. The work appears to contradict assertions by the Trump administration and Manafort himself that he never worked for Russian interests.

Manafort proposed in a confidential strategy plan as early as June 2005 that he would influence politics, business dealings and news coverage inside the United States, Europe and the former Soviet republics to benefit the Putin government, even as U.S.-Russia relations under Republican President George W. Bush grew worse. Manafort pitched the plans to Russian aluminum magnate Oleg Deripaska, a close Putin ally with whom Manafort eventually signed a $10 million annual contract beginning in 2006, according to interviews with several people familiar with payments to Manafort and business records obtained by the AP. Manafort and Deripaska maintained a business relationship until at least 2009, according to one person familiar with the work.


"We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success," Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, "will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government."

Manafort's plans were laid out in documents obtained by the AP that included strategy memoranda and records showing international wire transfers for millions of dollars. How much work Manafort performed under the contract was unclear.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-paul-manafort-putin-russia-20170322-story.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 22, 2017, 09:22:08 am
Some of the developments regarding Russia do bother me, but how much of this is butthurt from Democrats who still can’t believe Hillary was such a crappy candidate that an a-hole like Donald Trump could have possibly beat her?  This seems like an over-inflated issue to me with everyone trying to draw lines from Russia to Trump.  It could have easily been said other foreign governments were lining up to support Hillary as a quid pro quo with their donations to the Clinton Family Foundation.

Find any election in the last 100 years where there hasn’t been some sort of foreign influence whether it was straw donations from industrialists or the rhetoric of powerful foreign leaders.

The Democrat Party ceding the race for their candidate to Hillary before the primaries even started is why we have Donald Trump in office, not because Vladimir Putin wanted him there.  It is impossible to quantify what damage, if any, was done to Hillary’s aspirations to be POTUS as a result of the Russian hacking.  No one can put a number of votes on it, there simply is no way.

Picking Hillary to run against anyone was simply a poor choice.  Pick better in the next election.  Go back to someone young and dynamic, not a corrupt political re-tread.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 22, 2017, 10:19:16 am
Remember the good ol days when ties like this just seemed to fall by the wayside.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/04/news/mn-24189

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/25/opinion/essay-the-china-connection.html

I know it's truly probably not a whole lot, but it had a lot more connections than the current iteration.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 22, 2017, 10:31:40 am
And no one seems to remember Obama's promise to be more "flexible".

Working with Russia is not a crime...yet. Or at least it isn't when a Democrat does it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 22, 2017, 10:42:09 am
Please. This is not normal.

When Obama tried to reengage Russia, that was before they invaded Crimea. Situations change.

The current situation is that we know that Russian Intelligence hacked the Democratic party and others in addition to conducting a propaganda campaign in the United States to elect Trump. If that isn’t really serious to you, you have a problem.

In addition to that there is a ton of evidence linking the Trump campaign to Russia, including Russian Intelligence. Add to that strong circumstantial evidence of collusion and coordination between the Russian government/Russian Intelligence and the Trump campaign on those hacks and propaganda campaigns by Russian Intelligence.

This has nothing to do with Clinton and isn’t like anything we have faced before as a country.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 22, 2017, 11:42:45 am
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17426099_225533667851609_4372678132927107728_n.jpg?oh=833f982ef15f64299145423a7fb6a6dc&oe=5954A645)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 22, 2017, 12:28:00 pm
and isn’t like anything we have faced before as a country.

Well maybe not like anything I have seen before (as I wasn't alive):

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/when-a-foreign-government-interfered-in-a-us-electionto-reelect-fdr-214634

While the UK was an ally, they were still looking out for their own best interest. If you think every country in the world just sits back and watches EVERY other country go about their business, you are living in fantasy land. There are dozens of countries that would love to be in front of major shifts of power like this and likely do everything they can to do so. Hell, we do the same.

And maybe you are partially right in that we haven't faced this kind of thing before. On the flip side, how many countries could say the same thing, because I'm sure we have been "diddling" in other countries affairs for pretty much our entire existence.

Also, never mind the DNC's attempts at propagandizing the better part of the national media (that was uncovered by supposed Russian hackers no less). THAT is not a problem at all thought. Because I assume domestic propaganda is all right.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on March 22, 2017, 01:29:34 pm
Because I assume domestic propaganda is all right.

Yep. That's right.  Or, at least par for the course and something that is standard in American politics.   Again, and per an earlier poster, if the basic premise is that this is Russia, actively attempting (and succeeding) in altering the course of an election, and you don't care, then there's no arguing with you on this one.

Now, if Putin had actually campaigned for Trump?  Above board where everyone could see?  That would be strange, but have at it.  But this is Russian spying and manipulating the US, with the aid of members of the current administration.  That does not work for me.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 22, 2017, 02:05:29 pm
Yep. That's right.  Or, at least par for the course and something that is standard in American politics.   Again, and per an earlier poster, if the basic premise is that this is Russia, actively attempting (and succeeding) in altering the course of an election, and you don't care, then there's no arguing with you on this one.

Now, if Putin had actually campaigned for Trump?  Above board where everyone could see?  That would be strange, but have at it.  But this is Russian spying and manipulating the US, with the aid of members of the current administration.  That does not work for me.

I'm not at all saying that it is ok with me, just that it is not incredibly, can't believe it, over the top has never happened before in this or any lifetime. That kind of thinking just reminds me of the ding bats at ESPN commenting on Sunday morning about how Saturday's game was the greatest ever...every weekend. It gets old and it also desensitizes the audience into not believing them...ever. I have a feeling that finding the Trump connection to Russia will be akin to finding the Obama's connection to Kenya (or lack there of in the end). Acting like Russia shouldn't have interests that benefit themselves is dumb, and thinking that they wouldn't use means necessary to that end is doubly dumb. The connected world makes this all the more possible. That being said, it makes it all the more impossible to skirt detection. And considering I think Trump is a guy that couldn't find his way out of a paper bag, I find it incredibly hard to believe that he is capable of pulling of such a thing. So, either Trump is as dumb as you all (and I) say he is, or he is one of the most cunning. Which is it. I'm so damned confused at this point.

All this in my opinion of course.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on March 23, 2017, 05:25:34 pm
Well there is apparently a "smoking gun" on spying. Nope. Not caring (and not believing).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/23/potential-smoking-gun-showing-obama-administration-spied-on-trump-team-source-says.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on March 23, 2017, 11:25:33 pm
Well there is apparently a "smoking gun" on spying. Nope. Not caring (and not believing).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/23/potential-smoking-gun-showing-obama-administration-spied-on-trump-team-source-says.html

We live in a country that has for the past couple of administrations spied on its citizens wholesale and without just cause; computers vacuum up every email, text and phone call to feed to the latest algorithm.  What are the odds that some political staff somewhere got inventoried?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 24, 2017, 06:23:13 am
We live in a country that has for the past couple of administrations spied on its citizens wholesale and without just cause; computers vacuum up every email, text and phone call to feed to the latest algorithm.  What are the odds that some political staff somewhere got inventoried?

And then gossiped around the office...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 24, 2017, 10:43:08 am
Well there is apparently a "smoking gun" on spying. Nope. Not caring (and not believing).



Spying on Russia and just happening to catch the activities Trump and his cronies were involved in with Russia is not exactly the same as spying on Trump.

But good lawyer parsing there...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 29, 2017, 01:26:02 pm
The Republican House and Senate have passed and Trump says he will sign a repeal of Internet Privacy Rules. Basically, your ISP can now sell your browsing data to the highest bidder and there's nothing you can do about it.

Yay, another win for the little guy against big business via Trump!

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-internet-idUSKBN1702TA?il=0

 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 29, 2017, 01:35:32 pm
Trump has removed Obama’s requirements for fuel economy in cars. These rules known as café standards, aside from not creating any jobs and further battering the environment, will drive up our demand for oil which will drive up the price of gasoline and increase our trade deficit. Winning! For Exxon, Devon and Saudi Arabia anyway.

Oh, and Russia of course. Russia badly needs high oil prices. But nothing to see there, nothing at all.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/trump-rolls-back-obama-era-fuel-economy-standards-n734256


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2017, 02:56:08 pm
Trump has removed Obama’s requirements for fuel economy in cars. These rules known as café standards, aside from not creating any jobs and further battering the environment, will drive up our demand for oil which will drive up the price of gasoline and increase our trade deficit. Winning! For Exxon, Devon and Saudi Arabia anyway.

Oh, and Russia of course. Russia badly needs high oil prices. But nothing to see there, nothing at all.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/trump-rolls-back-obama-era-fuel-economy-standards-n734256


The Trump Admin is a complete shitshow, no doubt.  But this is one area they may want to roll back I can't argue too much with.

Honestly, I'm not sure how realistic a fleet average of 54.5 MPG would have been in 8 years, if there's no demand for the cars or if they end up being priced higher than the average consumer can afford.  The auto industry is saying that might cost 1 million jobs.

At this point, they've repealed nothing, they are simply opening this up for review.  If they set the CAFE standard at 45 MPG or 50 MPG, is that really going to wreck the environment?  I'm sensing some preemptive hysteria from the left on this one.

/Edit- re-reading the headline of the story, it's somewhere between very misleading to a blatant lie.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 29, 2017, 03:18:06 pm
The Trump Admin is a complete shitshow, no doubt.  But this is one area they may want to roll back I can't argue too much with.

Honestly, I'm not sure how realistic a fleet average of 54.5 MPG would have been in 8 years, if there's no demand for the cars or if they end up being priced higher than the average consumer can afford.  The auto industry is saying that might cost 1 million jobs.

At this point, they've repealed nothing, they are simply opening this up for review.  If they set the CAFE standard at 45 MPG or 50 MPG, is that really going to wreck the environment?  I'm sensing some preemptive hysteria from the left on this one.

/Edit- re-reading the headline of the story, it's somewhere between very misleading to a blatant lie.

Car companies have always complained they couldn't meet CAFE standards. All they have to do is sell more electric cars to average out the fuel economy for thier fleets. With more and more economy of scale for batteries those prices are all ready going down in a hurry.

We are already facing the imminent collapse of the glacier on Greenland. The climate issues are here now.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 29, 2017, 03:27:59 pm
Car companies have always complained they couldn't meet CAFE standards. All they have to do is sell more electric cars to average out the fuel economy for thier fleets. With more and more economy of scale for batteries those prices are all ready going down in a hurry.

We are already facing the imminent collapse of the glacier on Greenland. The climate issues are here now.

If "the people" don't want them, is it our government's responsibility to force them to buy them?

I know that's a rhetorical question as our government has already done so in other areas.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 29, 2017, 04:57:37 pm
Yeah, I really don't want a Tesla sedan that can outperform a Corvette and wean me from gasoline. I wish the government wouldn't push it down my throat at about 2/3 of the cost of the Vette.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 29, 2017, 08:50:37 pm
Yeah, I really don't want a Tesla sedan that can outperform a Corvette and wean me from gasoline. I wish the government wouldn't push it down my throat at about 2/3 of the cost of the Vette.


Corvette? Please.

The Tesla S P100D matches or beats the fastest car in the world, the $2.4 million Bugatti Veyron. And adds better handling, fully automated driving, seating for five with plenty of luggage space and much better reliability. Who would want that at 1/15th the price of the Bugatti? Who?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-24/here-s-how-the-new-teslas-stack-up-against-bugatti-lamborghini-and-ferrari


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2017, 10:28:36 pm
Yeah, I really don't want a Tesla sedan that can outperform a Corvette and wean me from gasoline. I wish the government wouldn't push it down my throat at about 2/3 of the cost of the Vette.

There are lots of videos at the drag strips. Yep, electric low end torque is a winner.  I could only find one (without spending gobs of hours) on a road track. (Road racing is real racing.) The Tesla Model S is right up there with a Vette but it is not a walk-away for either.  It depends on which model Vette you compare with.  I didn't thoroughly examine the rebates where I help others buy a Tesla through my taxes but the list price of a Model S is well above the price of even a Z06 Vette.  I have not seen comparisons of lesser model Teslas against the Vette.  FWIW, I do not own a Corvette or a Tesla.  I could be happy with either as a gift.  ;D



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2017, 10:42:26 pm
We are already facing the imminent collapse of the glacier on Greenland. The climate issues are here now.

Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas.  We need to get rid of all the artificial lakes in the world to prevent evaporation.
(A bit of sarcasm but not entirely.)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2017, 10:43:46 pm
Car companies have always complained they couldn't meet CAFE standards. All they have to do is sell more electric cars to average out the fuel economy for thier fleets. With more and more economy of scale for batteries those prices are all ready going down in a hurry.

We are already facing the imminent collapse of the glacier on Greenland. The climate issues are here now.

As I remember, you bought a Q50, not a totally electric car.  Please explain.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2017, 10:52:49 pm
If "the people" don't want them, is it our government's responsibility to force them to buy them?

YES!  Get with the program.  ;D



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2017, 10:58:10 pm
Trump has removed Obama’s requirements for fuel economy in cars. These rules known as café standards, aside from not creating any jobs and further battering the environment, will drive up our demand for oil which will drive up the price of gasoline and increase our trade deficit.

If Obama's desires had really been so universally correct, he could have convinced even a Republican House and Senate to make them law rather than Presidential edicts. You probably won't agree but that is your problem, not mine.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2017, 07:33:01 am
If "the people" don't want them, is it our government's responsibility to force them to buy them?

I know that's a rhetorical question as our government has already done so in other areas.


Yeah, like subsidizing the oil industry to the tune of billions a year of our tax money to keep people pointed directly at oil dug out of the ground.  As opposed to say maybe just letting the free market system work by removing restrictions on growing certain plants that grow as weeds that could provide a big majority of our fuel and oil needs.

As for forcing anyone to buy a Tesla, well that is not a "push" demand - it is a "pull" demand - people buying them really want them!  The styling is impeccable - they look really good (for the Okies amongst us)!!  Performance is amazing - even though it is stupid to do actual road racing, it is good to ride the highways at a reasonable speed.  And the cost for fuel is the best of any available automobile...at least for a little while longer - it's free for life using one of their charging stations.  Stay with the high end luxury model and it remains free!





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 30, 2017, 08:12:09 am
As I remember, you bought a Q50, not a totally electric car.  Please explain.

Good memory. Tesla was out of my price range. My next car, we will see.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 30, 2017, 08:39:10 am

Yeah, like subsidizing the oil industry to the tune of billions a year of our tax money to keep people pointed directly at oil dug out of the ground.  As opposed to say maybe just letting the free market system work by removing restrictions on growing certain plants that grow as weeds that could provide a big majority of our fuel and oil needs.

As for forcing anyone to buy a Tesla, well that is not a "push" demand - it is a "pull" demand - people buying them really want them!  The styling is impeccable - they look really good (for the Okies amongst us)!!  Performance is amazing - even though it is stupid to do actual road racing, it is good to ride the highways at a reasonable speed.  And the cost for fuel is the best of any available automobile...at least for a little while longer - it's free for life using one of their charging stations.  Stay with the high end luxury model and it remains free!

The point was whether or not it was ok for the government to basically make a viable product nonviable at the benefit of a competitor? That would equate to cutting subsidies to oil & gas and boosting them for renewable at the same time. Which is not what is occurring at the moment.

And I understand Tesla's are desirable. Most other electric cars, not quite so much.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2017, 11:26:03 am
The point was whether or not it was ok for the government to basically make a viable product nonviable at the benefit of a competitor? That would equate to cutting subsidies to oil & gas and boosting them for renewable at the same time. Which is not what is occurring at the moment.

And I understand Tesla's are desirable. Most other electric cars, not quite so much.


We - as in our government - meddle all the time and have done that repeatedly.  100 years ago it was government meddling in transportation that set us on the course of favoring auto/truck transport over train.  At that time, the train companies were considered to big to allow to keep on like they were - intentional efforts to cut them down to size.  Kind of like the 'breaking up' of Standard Oil.

True, we don't see much of that lately - until the last few weeks with Trump trying to play some kind of game with coal and steel.  He made big promises that are literally, physically impossible to keep.  Coal will never come back like it was say 30+ years ago...natural gas is just too cheap for that to happen - at least in our lives.  And as natural gas usage peaks, levels out and declines, it will just make the coal slide worse.

But - there is a huge market we literally have just thrown away over the last couple decades!  Solar.  We invented the stuff.  Developed methods and applications.  Then just walked away and let China have it, lock, stock, and barrel...because of yeah, you guessed it - big oil and coal. 

Old business saying I have heard for decades for companies also applies to societies - if you don't cannibalize your own product, someone else will !  And we let someone else cannibalize solar!!  And the anti-electric car people want to do the same. 

And they are trying to keep the genie in the bottle with respect to biofuels, too.  Prohibiting the use of the single most productive feedstock for biofuel and oil production - marijuana! 


And steel...?   Well, a lot has gone overseas, but our remaining steel has evolved into almost "boutique" specialty steel companies.  And from what I can see (reading and listening) we have not really lost much in either employment or value of sales - the low end 'rebar' type stuff is where we don't have as much presence.  And foreign labor didn't take away what employment was lost - automation (robots) has had a much bigger effect that moving jobs to China ever did or will.  And not just in steel...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on March 30, 2017, 11:37:00 am

We - as in our government - meddle all the time and have done that repeatedly.  100 years ago it was government meddling in transportation that set us on the course of favoring auto/truck transport over train.  At that time, the train companies were considered to big to allow to keep on like they were - intentional efforts to cut them down to size.  Kind of like the 'breaking up' of Standard Oil.

True, we don't see much of that lately - until the last few weeks with Trump trying to play some kind of game with coal and steel.  He made big promises that are literally, physically impossible to keep.  Coal will never come back like it was say 30+ years ago...natural gas is just too cheap for that to happen - at least in our lives.  And as natural gas usage peaks, levels out and declines, it will just make the coal slide worse.

But - there is a huge market we literally have just thrown away over the last couple decades!  Solar.  We invented the stuff.  Developed methods and applications.  Then just walked away and let China have it, lock, stock, and barrel...because of yeah, you guessed it - big oil and coal. 

Old business saying I have heard for decades for companies also applies to societies - if you don't cannibalize your own product, someone else will !  And we let someone else cannibalize solar!!  And the anti-electric car people want to do the same. 

And they are trying to keep the genie in the bottle with respect to biofuels, too.  Prohibiting the use of the single most productive feedstock for biofuel and oil production - marijuana! 


And steel...?   Well, a lot has gone overseas, but our remaining steel has evolved into almost "boutique" specialty steel companies.  And from what I can see (reading and listening) we have not really lost much in either employment or value of sales - the low end 'rebar' type stuff is where we don't have as much presence.  And foreign labor didn't take away what employment was lost - automation (robots) has had a much bigger effect that moving jobs to China ever did or will.  And not just in steel...



In a former life I worked at a pressure vessel manufacturer. Nearly every project required steel at certain specifications and rarely came from overseas. It seemed (and I am not expert) that the US either had the best alloy production on the planet, or the cheapest. I'm not sure which to be honest.

And I know we/the country/government/whomever has helped in picking winners and losers for decades. But are we not getting tired of it. No one can say for certain whether one industry would fail or succeed because we've mucked up the system so bad with unnatural pressure. Maybe electric cars are being held back. Maybe they are a bunch of lemons. Who the hell knows for sure.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 30, 2017, 11:59:40 am
People know Alf. They know. People know how to get energy out of the air, how to insure the masses economically and how to keep our playpen clean and healthy. We intend to stay ignorant and blind as long as possible to keep the right folks happy, wealthy and in charge.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2017, 04:31:04 pm


And I know we/the country/government/whomever has helped in picking winners and losers for decades. But are we not getting tired of it. No one can say for certain whether one industry would fail or succeed because we've mucked up the system so bad with unnatural pressure. Maybe electric cars are being held back. Maybe they are a bunch of lemons. Who the hell knows for sure.



Alf?  Is that where your name came from?  Is first name Gordon by any chance?


When you have proven bad effects - like all the adverse effects relative to coal - one should try to do better.  On the grand scale of things, a company, or a society should be trying new things all the time.  One will never know if it is a lemon if one does not take a shot at it.  Semi-electric cars are proven and have a track record.  Without more than a very modest nudge in the form of incentives from government - much less total than we give oil/gas every year!

We literally are in a position today where the steam trains and buggy makers have paid off Congress, pushed a massive propaganda effort through the alt-right Faux Fox News type channels, and in general have just denigrated and demonized people for thinking ahead and wanting to pursue new ideas.

We are being run by Luddites.  While the rest of the world - ALL of it - is NOT sitting on their thumbs enjoying the view and the sensation!  That is why we have lost so much.  Solar.  Wind (I didn't mention that earlier, but the biggest players are not here.)  Automotive technology and quality manufacturing.

While our companies are crying and whining about "government overreach" or "too much regulation" - which is BS by the way...and if someone disagrees, I am still waiting for valid examples - Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, etc. just went out and raised mileage, increased dependability, reduced maintenance requirements/intervals, increased safety, and finally may have gotten Ford and GM's attention.  Well, except that Ford can't paint a car that will keep the paint on for 6 years...








Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 30, 2017, 07:45:07 pm
Flynn is offering to talk in exchange for immunity, and no one wants to give it to him. This is very bad for Trump.

Quote
"General Flynn certainly has a story to tell, and he very much wants to tell it, should the circumstances permit,'' Flynn's attorney, Robert Kelner, said in a statement Thursday evening. "Out of respect for the committees, we will not comment right now on the details of discussions between counsel for General Flynn and the House and Senate intelligence committees, other than to confirm that those discussions have taken place. But it is important to acknowledge the circumstances in which those discussions are occurring.''

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-michael-flynn-immunity-intel-russia-20170330-story.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on March 30, 2017, 08:01:25 pm
Flynn is offering to talk in exchange for immunity, and no one wants to give it to him. This is very bad for Trump.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-michael-flynn-immunity-intel-russia-20170330-story.html



Glorious karma for sure.

He said this last year:

Quote
Michael Flynn to NBC in September: "When you are given immunity, that means you have probably committed a crime."

What a smile show this has become.  Trumpistan is in trouble.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 30, 2017, 08:56:56 pm
Glorious karma for sure.

He said this last year:

What a smile show this has become.  Trumpistan is in trouble.



When you are offered immunity you are probably guilty of a crime. When you are refused immunity, you are going to jail.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2017, 09:20:08 pm
Glorious karma for sure.

He said this last year:

What a smile show this has become.  Trumpistan is in trouble.



Trumpistan or Dumbfuckistan?  Oh wait, no Murr Failin’ is in charge of the latter.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 31, 2017, 08:37:23 am
He has jumped in to the front of the process by offering to give testimony in exchange for immunity. That gives him plausibility to trump's tribe that he has nothing to hide, and that is supported by trump tweets indicating its just a (fake news) witch hunt. When you get past that bs, its a guy offering to spill what is probably already known in exchange for protection from prosecution. The rats are beginning to scurry.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2017, 10:12:01 am
Flynn is offering to talk in exchange for immunity, and no one wants to give it to him. This is very bad for Trump.




This is the danger point for Flynn - Russian operatives who don't play ball properly are dropping like flies recently.... Hope Flynn makes it through the coming days/weeks/months!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on March 31, 2017, 11:29:01 am

This is the danger point for Flynn - Russian operatives who don't play ball properly are dropping like flies recently.... Hope Flynn makes it through the coming days/weeks/months!



Mannafort's buddy from Ukraine recently was shot dead.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2017, 12:35:45 pm
Mannafort's buddy from Ukraine recently was shot dead.


There have been several.  I posed the question in the office as to whether he will survive to have the opportunity to testify before Putin has him taken out.  It will be a race to convergence with his fate.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on March 31, 2017, 12:40:53 pm
It's one thing to be taken out by Putin in Russia.  If Flynn dies here in the US (for any reason), it's going to set off alarms all over the place.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2017, 01:21:50 pm
It's one thing to be taken out by Putin in Russia.  If Flynn dies here in the US (for any reason), it's going to set off alarms all over the place.


Review the record...groping women didn't set off any alarms.  Pedophilia set off no alarms.  Lying about literally everything he has made a comment on set off no alarms.

Wouldn't be that big a deal...the alt-right would just say, "oh, well, he was a closet liberal anyway..."

He better stay away from Turkey, too!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on March 31, 2017, 04:08:33 pm
Mannafort's buddy from Ukraine recently was shot dead.

What ever happened to good ol’ uranium poisonings and things of that nature from the KGB?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on March 31, 2017, 04:49:56 pm
They've lost their sense of creativity and humor. Eleven so far btw.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 01, 2017, 07:53:18 am
It just keeps getting better and better (or worse and worse?)

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-walks-out-executive-order-signing-ceremony-without-signing-2017-3


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on April 01, 2017, 11:20:03 am
  (https://scontent.ftul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17626332_1577832375560116_3034563824760359857_n.jpg?oh=96214cdbb0f5ff13ad1baba5c5368be4&oe=59604CB1)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 01, 2017, 06:00:18 pm

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/paul-ryan-failed-because-his-bill-was-a-dumpster-fire-214952

(http://www.thepubliceditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Hillary_Trump_Dumpster_Fires-e1470001987905.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on April 01, 2017, 10:47:32 pm
  (https://scontent.ftul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17626332_1577832375560116_3034563824760359857_n.jpg?oh=96214cdbb0f5ff13ad1baba5c5368be4&oe=59604CB1)

He was easy to laugh at when he was the unwanted party guest prior to the primaries.  Then he started winning the damn primaries.

There is a certain amount of Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) from the left which is magnifying every single misstep much like there was ODS from right-leaning folk and I find it tiresome.  But honestly I don't see any way his admin will be looked on by history as being superior to Carter or even Harding.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 02, 2017, 02:20:03 pm
He was easy to laugh at when he was the unwanted party guest prior to the primaries.  Then he started winning the damn primaries.

There is a certain amount of Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) from the left which is magnifying every single misstep much like there was ODS from right-leaning folk and I find it tiresome.  But honestly I don't see any way his admin will be looked on by history as being superior to Carter or even Harding.


He will be worse than Baby Bush.  The worst ever.   Already is....




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 05, 2017, 01:18:11 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8n3lzqXoAIgVVA.jpg:large)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 05, 2017, 07:16:27 am
Still following those shiny things.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 05, 2017, 07:19:23 am
Still following those shiny things.


You would think that would make it tough for a litigator to work, right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on April 05, 2017, 08:25:38 am
What did Susan Rice do that was illegal or is this just a red herring?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 05, 2017, 08:28:05 am
What did Susan Rice do that was illegal or is this just a red herring?


Red herring.  Investigations were being done into Russian hacking.  Turns out the Trump team was right in the middle of their preliminary discussions with Russia at the time, so they got caught with their hands in cookie jar.  Using projection, they are trying to push it back the other way.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 05, 2017, 09:04:04 am
What did Susan Rice do that was illegal or is this just a red herring?

You decide:

In her position as security adviser she is given reports on surveillance of foreigners the US intelligence community has determined we need to watch closely.  The names of US citizens are replaced with identifiers other than their names.  After US intelligence officials warned the White House that Russia was trying to interfere with the election, she asked for the identity of the US persons frequently in contact with the Russians that appeared in the intelligence reports, intelligence officials agreed to disclose.  It turns out those people were associated with Team Trump. I'm not aware of an allegation that the information was leaked by her or improperly utilized.

It appears the Trump White House then showed/leaked those classified reports to the Republican running the House investigation into Trumps contacts with the Russians.  He then took it to the press.  And then the White House reacted to the "shocking" news (which it leaked).  The panel actually investigating the issue is still fighting to see the intelligence and the White House won't say who actually met with the guy.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/03/30/michael-ellis-ezra-cohen-watnick-gave-devin-nunes-intelligence-info-white-house
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/sorry-susan-rice-not-smoking-gun/

So far as I know, no one is disputing any of those facts and no one that understands whats going on seems to indicate the facts show anything particularly unusual about what Rice did, let alone illegal. But the conspiracy goes on to suggest that the White House improperly directed the intelligence community to spy on Russians hoping to catch Trump associates communicating with them and that the intelligence agencies complied - but I'm not aware of facts that back that up.  Even under that conspiracy, I'm not aware of an allegation that the successfully obtained information was then leaked to the public or handled improperly.  Fairly weak conspiracy theory.

Either way -  when a politics thread descends into clown memes...its pretty clear any meaningful discussion has died and the thread should just fade away. 
 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on April 05, 2017, 11:35:20 am
Thanks for that, CF. I really didn't understand how Susan Rice fit into this story. It's remarkably similar to Cheney leaking Valerie Plame to a reporter, then claiming he learned about her from the resulting news story.

Pay no attention to those Russians behind the curtain!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 05, 2017, 11:48:22 am
Thanks for that, CF. I really didn't understand how Susan Rice fit into this story. It's remarkably similar to Cheney leaking Valerie Plame to a reporter, then claiming he learned about her from the resulting news story.

Pay no attention to those Russians behind the curtain!

And in further news today, it appears that Bannon has been kicked off the National Security Council.

Wonder what he did to get Cheeto McCheetoface upset at him to kick him off.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 05, 2017, 12:47:19 pm
And in further news today, it appears that Bannon has been kicked off the National Security Council.

Wonder what he did to get Cheeto McCheetoface upset at him to kick him off.

Such a racist comment. How do you think all the oppressed cheeto faces out there feel with this kind of attitude? There should be more respect for the office of the president. (sarc off)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 05, 2017, 01:57:05 pm
I think McMasters has taken over the leadership in the NSA and felt he did not need political help. In fact the organizational layout resembles the pre-trump design. CIA was added back as principal membership as well.McMaster is strong enough to work with this president and provide the military and intelligence support he needs.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 05, 2017, 09:03:59 pm
Such a racist comment. How do you think all the oppressed cheeto faces out there feel with this kind of attitude? There should be more respect for the office of the president. (sarc off)



Actually, there should probably be more respect for delicious Cheetos than to compare them to P-grabber.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 06, 2017, 02:08:39 pm
Well, of course Trump doesn't think O'Reilly didn't do anything wrong - it's all the stuff that HE does, repeatedly...!


https://www.yahoo.com/news/mika-trump-shouldn-apos-t-032613983.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 06, 2017, 05:23:25 pm
Just posting a picture of the President of the United States and his wife with foreign dignitaries.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8wvpuCW0AAZXXP.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on April 07, 2017, 11:07:29 am
At Trump And Xi's Meetings, Uncomfortable Talks Are The Order Of The Day

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/placed_wide/nprshared/201704/523003806.jpg)

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/trump-and-xis-meetings-uncomfortable-talks-are-order-day (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/trump-and-xis-meetings-uncomfortable-talks-are-order-day)

Quote
It's safe to say that few people expected the first face-to-face meeting between President Trump and Xi Jinping to unfold this way.

Halfway through the Chinese president's visit to Trump's resort in Palm Beach, Fla., Trump announced to the world that he had ordered a missile strike on a Syrian airfield in retaliation for an apparent chemical attack by Bashar Assad's regime.

"It is in this vital national security interest of the United States to prevent and deter the spread and use of deadly chemical weapons," Trump said Thursday night at Mar-a-Lago.

Xi, for his part, has not commented publicly on the Syria strike.

While it's likely to loom large over the talks, the strike isn't the only difficult issue confronting the two presidents. From trade policy to North Korea, from Taiwan to the South China Sea, the list of possible topics for their talks Thursday and Friday is about as long as it is thorny.

This meeting had long promised to be a delicate dance between the leaders, whose relationship has had something of a rocky start.

For much of the 2016 presidential campaign, candidate Trump placed China squarely in his rhetorical cross-hairs, decrying the United States' $300 billion-plus trade deficit with China and calling the country a currency manipulator.

"We can't continue to allow China to rape our country, and that's what they're doing," Trump said during a campaign stop last year. "It's the greatest theft in the history of the world."

And about a month after his election, Trump also upended decades of diplomatic policy by accepting a congratulatory phone call from the president of Taiwan — which China considers a breakaway territory.

Still, those initial frictions have settled somewhat lately.

In a telephone conversation in February, Trump reaffirmed his commitment to the long-held "One China" doctrine, an intentionally ambiguous U.S. position that asserts both China and Taiwan are part of One China. And anxieties about a trade war between the U.S. and China have as yet shown no indications of becoming reality.

A return to placid relations would seem to be welcome news for Xi, who has more than his country's interests in mind.

There are also Xi's own political ambitions. With his eye on a second five-year term, which is set to start this fall, Xi is working to shore up his political power at home — which would be complicated by friction in his talks with Trump.

NPR correspondents Anthony Kuhn and Rob Schmitz lay out how Xi also might use the meetings as a means to begin carving out a larger leadership role for China on the global stage. But first, Trump and Xi have some rather difficult topics to tackle. Here are three of the biggest — and here's what's at stake:

North Korea
Trade And Investment
South China Sea

North Korea
"North Korea clearly is a matter of urgent interest for the president and the administration as a whole," a senior U.S. administration official told reporters this week.

It's easy to see why.

The reclusive country fired a ballistic missile into the waters near Japan on Wednesday local time, in what NPR's Elise Hu notes was its fourth attempted missile launch of the year.

Thus far, international bids to get North Korea to end its missile program have proved fruitless, and the Trump administration is pressing China to take a harder line.

"The policy of strategic patience has ended," Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said during his recent visit to South Korea. "We are exploring a new range of diplomatic, security, economic measures. All options are on the table."

That statement is likely to carry even more weight in the wake of the U.S. missile strike in Syria.

Arguably, China is best positioned to pressure dictator Kim Jong Un's regime, as its next-door neighbor and by far its most important trading partner. North Korea conducts an estimated 90 percent of its trade with China.

China has long been loath to exercise that leverage to its fullest for fear of destabilizing a nuclear neighbor — a nuclear neighbor with thousands of U.S. troops stationed just over the border in South Korea. So, while China has signed on to U.N. sanctions on North Korea, some argue that Beijing has been less than rigorous about enforcing them.

"As far as Beijing is concerned," Anthony tells All Things Considered, "it wants the U.S. to provide North Korea with some sort of security guarantee in exchange for either freezing its nuclear programs or denuclearizing, as it's already promised to do."

Trump has made his impatience apparent, however.

"China will either decide to help us with North Korea, or they won't," Trump told the Financial Times this week. "And if they do that will be very good for China, and if they don't it won't be good for anyone."

Trade And Investment
Trump's bellicose statements on the stump haven't materialized in the form of tariffs or particularly punitive measures directed toward China, though it's clear he hasn't forgotten about that hefty trade deficit between the two countries.

"We have been treated unfairly and have made terrible deals, trade deals with China for many, many years. So that's one of the things we're going to be talking about," Trump said Thursday en route to the meeting in Florida.

So it was something of a surprise, NPR's Chris Arnold reports, when the U.S. Commerce Department quietly moved to begin reviewing China's status as a "non-market economy." That designation, Chris says, allows the U.S. to tax Chinese imports "if it believes that China is, for example, dumping steel into the U.S. at prices that are unnaturally low and that hurt U.S. industry."

Experts say China isn't likely to shake its NME status. But the move still flies in the face of campaign rhetoric that suggested U.S. trade policy would be trending in the opposite direction.

Couple that with Trump's withdrawal earlier this year from the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership — a move welcomed by China, which had been pointedly excluded from the agreement — and Xi might have incentive to extend an offer of his own.

"In an effort to forestall trade friction, Mr Xi could promise more Chinese investment in US infrastructure and manufacturing," the Financial Times posits. "But while Chinese investment in the US more than tripled last year to $45bn, the vast majority came from private sector entrepreneurs."

At any rate, a senior U.S. administration official made clear that Xi and Trump's discussions won't stray too far from economic matters: "The primary purpose of the meeting is to set a framework for discussions on trade and investment."

South China Sea
As with trade, the Trump administration has at times sent mixed signals when addressing maritime disputes in the South China Sea, where China has been gradually increasing its presence.

The Obama administration pushed back against China's territorial claims in the region, and Tillerson has said the U.S. opposes the country's construction of an artificial island there. As The New York Times reports, the secretary of state has said the U.S. should "send China a clear signal that, first, the island-building stops. And second, your access to those islands also is not going to be allowed."

Yet Anthony Kuhn reports that even as Tillerson maintained his position on the South China Sea, he surprised observers during his visit to China by adopting Beijing's language nearly verbatim when describing the U.S.-China relationship: "non-conflict, non-confrontation, mutual respect and win-win cooperation."

Anthony explains:

"Tillerson's use of Beijing's formula may leave the Trump administration open to criticism that either Tillerson bent over too far backwards to placate his Chinese hosts, or he failed to articulate the U.S. vision of the relationship, perhaps because it has yet to come up with a coherent policy towards China and Asia. Or both."
As Xi and Trump embark on their negotiations, Charles Freeman, a former U.S. trade negotiator, offered Trump some advice:

"Listen: Just don't speak first. Let the other side put its issues on the table and see what you like and what you don't like," Freeman tells NPR. "It may be difficult for this president to practice silence, but that's probably the best advice I can give him or anybody else in dealing with the Chinese."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 07, 2017, 01:17:08 pm
Just posting a picture of the President of the United States and his wife with foreign dignitaries.



I'm sure they feel so privileged to be standing so close to a porn star!!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2017, 01:29:00 pm

I'm sure they feel so privileged to be standing so close to a porn star!!



At least she's female.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 07, 2017, 01:41:28 pm
At least she's female.

Guid, you keep being you, k?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2017, 03:44:44 pm
Guid, you keep being you, k?

Just dealing with an ahole comment with an ahole comment. I am sure you were hacked over the "porn star" comment above but just had not gotten around to a rebuke. Right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 07, 2017, 04:06:38 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/2qm34LA.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on April 07, 2017, 04:09:29 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/2qm34LA.jpg)

Dude!  A play on a relatively current meme!  Did not expect that from you.  Nicely done.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: rebound on April 07, 2017, 04:10:26 pm
Although,  it should be "Cash me Assad"...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 07, 2017, 04:13:38 pm
Although,  it should be "Cash me Assad"...

Catch works too....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 07, 2017, 04:24:19 pm
Just dealing with an ahole comment with an ahole comment. I am sure you were hacked over the "porn star" comment above but just had not gotten around to a rebuke. Right?

Melania certainly has done some really racy nude modeling, that's simply a fact. But I wouldn't call her a porn star. I think the real porn star in the equation is Donald, no?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/06/00/3925117C00000578-0-image-a-1_1475710295196.jpg)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3825362/What-said-women-entertainment-says-Trump-not-true-feelings-Playboy-videos-90s-surface.html

But none of that is as fun as racist tropes about Michelle being man, is it?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 07, 2017, 05:00:14 pm
The tears are still flowing.....heh.....!!!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2017, 05:06:07 pm
You should head over to Twitter and see all the Brian Williams' memes flying around. Merciless


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 07, 2017, 08:59:25 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170408/4411f34834c69689f1b1b052e55f1ff3.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2017, 09:58:33 pm
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17796717_1874749166099766_8804747317235370570_n.jpg?oh=f0b98a0ba59af3d652380888ca2814b3&oe=599A0684)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 08, 2017, 12:32:32 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/lxu8g9D.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 08, 2017, 02:52:21 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/lxu8g9D.gif)

You win the internet. See Al Gore for your trophy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 08, 2017, 03:41:22 pm
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17522990_1502654459774171_2971943855859825691_n.jpg?oh=90d0fe5148236960dde1229ab6d7de93&oe=594D0312)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on April 08, 2017, 06:39:10 pm
"war theater" / expensive fireworks show

what did we supposedly strike / destroy?
Why didn't Putin attempt to counter or shoot down the missles?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/9089/americas-tomahawk-missile-attack-on-syrias-shayrat-air-base-was-a-sham
Quote
Unless you count old concrete as a weapon system or enemy, last night's strikes did no substantial damage to Assad's war fighting capability. A few hardened aircraft shelters were damaged, along with a handful of old tactical aircraft—their prior serviceability unknown—an some smaller buildings and miscellaneous material was harmed. The strike did not even take out the base's runway or taxiways temporarily, meaning more missions can be flown from Shayrat in the near term. Even the base's air defenses were left intact.

Some of this has to do with the fact that the Russians, which have had a strong presence at the base in recent years, were warned well in advance of the strike, and apparently the Syrians were as well. Most of the aircraft were likely moved to other locations, as were high-value materials and personnel. Killing Russians, even if they were complicit in the gas attack, is not a good thing. But if a warning made good strategic sense, why leave anything at the airfield intact after giving said warning?

...

Quote
A trio of B-2 Spirit stealth bombers, with their ability to sling 16 2,000lb "bunker buster" JDAMs or up to 80 500lb JDAMs each would have left that airfield, its runway, its hardened aircraft shelters and air defenses in ruins. This is why the B-2 was used to go after Libya's key airfields during operation Odyssey Dawn, not some of the nearly 200 TLAMs fired during that military excursion. If you are going to go after a highly limited target like a single airfield, which is a very questionable decision in itself, at least get the job done. Not just that, but B-2s could have also done the job also at very low risk, and could have approached the target from the east, instead of having to fly over Russia's air defenses along the Syrian coast. F-22s would have given the B-2s proper counter-air cover, if even that was needed which is unlikely.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 08, 2017, 07:07:26 pm
"war theater" / expensive fireworks show

what did we supposedly strike / destroy?
Why didn't Putin attempt to counter or shoot down the missles?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/9089/americas-tomahawk-missile-attack-on-syrias-shayrat-air-base-was-a-sham
...


But I thought Cheeto's attacks were bigly and would be the best attacks?   8)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 08, 2017, 09:39:09 pm
You win the internet. See Al Gore for your trophy.

Is he still alive to hand it out.....???


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 09, 2017, 06:25:05 pm
"war theater" / expensive fireworks show

what did we supposedly strike / destroy?
Why didn't Putin attempt to counter or shoot down the missles?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/9089/americas-tomahawk-missile-attack-on-syrias-shayrat-air-base-was-a-sham



So is he a war president now, or just a child who found a gun in a drawer?

He acts like he's still performing for the game show audience.  $60 million just to do cosmetic damage.  Expensive fireworks indeed.



AGAIN, TO OUR VERY FOOLISH LEADER, DO NOT ATTACK SYRIA - IF YOU DO MANY VERY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN & FROM THAT FIGHT THE U.S. GETS NOTHING!
5 Sep 2013 @realDonaldTrump (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/syria-chemical-attack-al-qaeda-played-donald-trump_us_58ea226fe4b058f0a02fca4d)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 09, 2017, 08:38:51 pm
At least she's female.


And that would be a difference why?   Porn is porn.  Melania does it with other humans.   And Trump uses a bag of cheetos... you can see the dust all over him!!  Always!




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 09, 2017, 08:40:42 pm
Just dealing with an ahole comment with an ahole comment. I am sure you were hacked over the "porn star" comment above but just had not gotten around to a rebuke. Right?


What is there to be hacked about just stating a fact??   As opposed to the years of lies about Obama being a Muslim...etc, etc, etc,

Selective outrage.  Selective morality.  Intellectual dishonesty.







Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 09, 2017, 08:46:32 pm
On the surface, I can see how Trump 'fanboys' might think spending $95 million on cruise missiles might mean something - since they will never go past the first sound bite anyway.  But once thinking people see that the Pentagon spokesman said we gave Russia notice...well, one has to know that was so they could move all equipment and personnel that might be affected by a real air strike!   Like the real ones Obama did against ISIS since 2014...   But we certainly wouldn't want to offend Donald's biggest creditor, would we?



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 10, 2017, 04:02:02 pm

And that would be a difference why?   Porn is porn.  Melania does it with other humans.   And Trump uses a bag of cheetos... you can see the dust all over him!!  Always!



Too much pu$$y grabbing.

(https://i1.wp.com/i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/03/16/10/3CEC606700000578-4319430-image-a-2_1489659511610.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 11, 2017, 08:36:39 am
Too much pu$$y grabbing.


Trump's modus operandi.   And pedophilia!  Don't forget the child molestation - but that is always excused by his apologists.  Because they see themselves in his actions...?????  It's a fraternal thing...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 11, 2017, 01:36:42 pm
Sean Spicer is a moron. That is all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 11, 2017, 02:06:56 pm
Sean Spicer is a moron. That is all.  Period.

FIFY


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on April 11, 2017, 02:39:40 pm
Sean Spicer is a moron. That is all.

Pepsi : "lets screw up big!"
United Airlines : "hold my beer"
Sean Spicer : "pff, amateurs"

(stollen from internets)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 11, 2017, 02:41:48 pm
Pepsi : "lets screw up big!"
United Airlines : "hold my beer"
Sean Spicer : "pff, amateurs"

(stollen from internets)

They are all providing a master class in bad PR work


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 11, 2017, 03:12:40 pm
Sean Spicer is a moron. That is all.


Yass!!

Dino Yass!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emA-IK2RcKY


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 11, 2017, 03:17:20 pm
I think Spicer is giving Biden a run for his money for the gaffe-master Trophy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 12, 2017, 12:42:49 pm
More lies. 

Bragging about creating 600,000 jobs....or maybe about half that if you grasp reality.   And less than Obama's monthly average for 8 years.  Number 3 in the history of the country!  Or the last 70 years or so...  I bet we don't keep creating jobs at that rate...  And that would have been even bigger if we had not had to climb out of the Baby Bush Hole for a year!

And that includes 345,000 fewer government employees over that time - should warm the cockles of the RWRE "smaller government hearts". 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-trump-not-created-600-080327387.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 13, 2017, 05:45:53 pm
Boom Goes the Dynamite...

https://twitter.com/TwiterIsFascist/status/852596553672011781

And the memes that follow:

https://twitter.com/jojoh888/status/852700060437458945


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 14, 2017, 10:51:37 am
Quote
One source suggested the official investigation was making progress. “They now have specific concrete and corroborative evidence of collusion,” the source said. “This is between people in the Trump campaign and agents of [Russian] influence relating to the use of hacked material.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 14, 2017, 12:19:48 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spies-first-to-spot-trump-team-links-russia)


I think one more story about Russia will guarantee a new election, and this time Hillary will win.


(https://www.conservativebookclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/199008_image.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 14, 2017, 12:51:55 pm

Yass!!

Dino Yass!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emA-IK2RcKY


I'm backing off a bit on the moron thing. Didn't know this about Spicer:

(http://www.magnificentbastard.com/images/pics/sean-spicer-issac-love-boat.jpg)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on April 14, 2017, 02:08:18 pm
I think one more story about Russia will guarantee a new election, and this time Hillary will win.

Ha!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 14, 2017, 07:31:26 pm
Boom Goes the Dynamite...

https://twitter.com/TwiterIsFascist/status/852596553672011781

And the memes that follow:

https://twitter.com/jojoh888/status/852700060437458945


No dynamite...it's thermobaric.  (Fuel-air bomb).

And how is that hitting the tunnel complex with the single most efficient bomb for tunnels only netted 38 out of estimated 800 - 900 people there??  Did Trump send them warning ahead of time like they did with the Syrian airbase?  So their personnel and equipment could be moved out of danger, too??




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 14, 2017, 07:32:03 pm
I'm backing off a bit on the moron thing. Didn't know this about Spicer:

(http://www.magnificentbastard.com/images/pics/sean-spicer-issac-love-boat.jpg)




Fwny Pao chicken??   

You were right the first time - he still is a moron.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 15, 2017, 07:03:32 am
For as much as Drumpf bitched about Obama and his golfing (which really wasn't excessive)....

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/14/politics/donald-trump-north-korea-mar-a-lago/index.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 15, 2017, 12:54:36 pm
For as much as Drumpf bitched about Obama and his golfing (which really wasn't excessive)....

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/14/politics/donald-trump-north-korea-mar-a-lago/index.html

Happy Easter from the First Family.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9a-xwxXcAMZX8r.jpg:large)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 15, 2017, 03:09:50 pm
Will the butt-hurt ever end...???


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 16, 2017, 07:58:35 am
Happy Easter from the First Family.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9a-xwxXcAMZX8r.jpg:large)

Yeah, because he's such a fervent church-goer.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/easter-trump-find-church-home-dc-46813717


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 16, 2017, 12:23:15 pm
Happy Easter from the First Family.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9a-xwxXcAMZX8r.jpg:large)

That's hilarious. I'm not even sure if it's a parody or not. Trump's about as Christian as the Easter Bunny, but a con man's gotta con, amirite?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 16, 2017, 11:13:34 pm
Will the butt-hurt ever end...???

Doubt it. I just found a recently unearthed photo of you know who in this forum, apparently getting ready for date night. Unless this stops there will always be butt hurt.

(http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/robotbuttheader2.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 17, 2017, 07:26:47 am
You two seem awfully upset when people mock your Cheetos Jesus. Sad!

Grow a pair princesses.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 17, 2017, 04:40:10 pm
That's hilarious. I'm not even sure if it's a parody or not. Trump's about as Christian as the Easter Bunny, but a con man's gotta con, amirite?

God Bless Us, Every One!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9oT8ZHV0AA0xU5.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 17, 2017, 04:44:52 pm
You two seem awfully upset when people mock your Cheetos Jesus. Sad!

Grow a pair princesses.

You are losing it. The main reason I lurk in this place is to witness the weekly (or sometimes daily) freak out by folks like you over the election. The disbelief over the outcome, the neverending "Russia" stories that has now attained (surpassed?) "birther" distinction, and whatever else gives reason to scream into the ether on this forum is terrifically uplifting. I am grateful for what you and others provide.


Edited: While I was typing this post you just had to prove my point about screaming into the ether--this time on Bannon. Kudos.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on April 17, 2017, 06:10:28 pm
You two seem awfully upset when people mock your Cheetos Jesus. Sad!

Grow a pair princesses.

Lol...You have been freakin for over a year....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 17, 2017, 06:58:36 pm
You are losing it. The main reason I lurk in this place is to witness the weekly (or sometimes daily) freak out by folks like you over the election. The disbelief over the outcome, the neverending "Russia"  Bengazi stories that has now attained (surpassed?) "birther" distinction, and whatever else gives reason to scream into the ether on this forum is terrifically uplifting. I am grateful for what you and others provide.

Fixed it for you


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 17, 2017, 09:15:24 pm
Lol...You have been freakin for over a year....

If you don't find that screen shot funny as sh!t you have issues.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 17, 2017, 10:54:25 pm
If you don't find that screen shot funny as sh!t you have issues.




I'm going to point this out and wait for the Sleepover Twins to comment.

https://www.facebook.com/BFF/videos/1216853638441096/

If this had been President Obama the Republican's heads would have exploded.

Ok, carry on.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 18, 2017, 10:05:36 am
This whole election and the past 100 days make it hard for SNL to look like parody. Spicer and trump are great material to work with.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 18, 2017, 01:48:10 pm
Buy American/Hire American signed today by the president. Needs to practice what he preaches a bit, but this I am sure means a lot to those people in the rust belt. Yes, I know it is racist and xenophobic.  ::)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 02:19:51 pm
Buy American/Hire American signed today by the president. Needs to practice what he preaches a bit, but this I am sure means a lot to those people in the rust belt. Yes, I know it is racist and xenophobic.  ::)

This does nothing for the rust belt. The main part of his order targets and reduces H-1B visa, which are for highly skilled workers, mostly tech workers.

I can tell you with personal direct knowledge of the situation that the impact of this order will be that tech companies will simply hire offshore employees in place instead of moving them to the states. The impact will be less skilled immigration, less taxes and more offshored work.

It’s a dumb plan implemented badly and will hurt this country long term.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 18, 2017, 02:45:51 pm
I have seen this from the legal point of you and your view of the impact of this EO and effects is too limited. And the scope will not be realized until after all the studies are completed.  At least we can agree its racist and xenophobic?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 03:09:52 pm
I have seen this from the legal point of you and your view of the impact of this EO and effects is too limited. And the scope will not be realized until after all the studies are completed.  At least we can agree its racist and xenophobic?

No, I certainly don’t know what I am talking about. I don’t work in IT administration management for a global Silicon Valley based tech company. I have zero experience in this.  I certainly don’t work with a lot of people here on such visas. I certainly am never involved with decisions about where we bring on talent, be it stateside or offshore, and the costs involved. I have never been in meetings where we have discussed a tech companies reaction and plan on dealing with both the Trump travel ban and his reduction in H-1B visas.
 
Nope, not at all councilor.
 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 18, 2017, 03:50:46 pm
No, I certainly don’t know what I am talking about. I don’t work in IT administration management for a global Silicon Valley based tech company. I have zero experience in this.  I certainly don’t work with a lot of people here on such visas. I certainly am never involved with decisions about where we bring on talent, be it stateside or offshore, and the costs involved. I have never been in meetings where we have discussed a tech companies reaction and plan on dealing with both the Trump travel ban and his reduction in H-1B visas.
 
Nope, not at all councilor.
 

It is "counselor". I am not sitting on a council.

Edited to add that you have proven my freakin point. You're view is limited to IT, not the impact such an immigration policy might have on other professions. And one other thing, I never said you didn't know what you are/were talking about. So don't go all dbag on me.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 18, 2017, 04:24:34 pm
It is "counselor". I am not sitting on a council.

Edited to add that you have proven my freakin point. You're view is limited to IT, not the impact such an immigration policy might have on other professions. And one other thing, I never said you didn't know what you are/were talking about. So don't go all dbag on me.

Never claimed to spell well.

Anyway, IT and tech jobs ARE what H-1B visas are about. Over 66% of H-1B visas went to employees in computer related occupations. All other possible occupations made up just 1/3rd of such visas. What I deal with IS what this issue is about.

This isn't about the Rust Belt, it's about the tech sector.

The office space market in Mumbai is booming.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/H-1B-FY15.pdf



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 08:16:12 am

The disbelief over the outcome, the neverending "Russia" stories that has now attained (surpassed?) "birther" distinction, and whatever else gives reason to scream into the ether on this forum is terrifically uplifting.



With the difference being, of course, the Russia stories are true, while the birther stories were not.






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 19, 2017, 08:28:06 am
At least the stories are based in some intelligence and are being pursued by legitimate investigations. It may take a couple of years but trump's group will eventually be exposed. Birthers, Pizzagate and Clinton murderer people will forever depend on rumor, fantasy, myth and alternative facts. The only surprise to me is how easily educated people are duped. But then that's what keeps con men going. The victims wanting to be taken.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 09:47:31 am
This whole election and the past 100 days make it hard for SNL to look like parody. Spicer and trump are great material to work with.



It is no longer parody - has morphed into documentary.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 09:56:49 am
At least the stories are based in some intelligence and are being pursued by legitimate investigations. It may take a couple of years but trump's group will eventually be exposed. Birthers, Pizzagate and Clinton murderer people will forever depend on rumor, fantasy, myth and alternative facts. The only surprise to me is how easily educated people are duped. But then that's what keeps con men going. The victims wanting to be taken.


Surprising how supposedly educated people are duped when the original authors of the lies - specifically hired by RWRE interests - have not only recanted the entire litany of lies, but have said they are sorry they participated, and that the Clintons specifically did not deserve the treatment they got.  And written books about it.   But that doesn't follow "The Script" anymore, so those same supposedly educated people are either not that well educated (intellectually bankrupt)   OR    are intentionally participating in the ongoing propagation of the lies (the more likely of the two)  showing them to be morally bankrupt.  One common example - referring to Hillary as "Killary"...still in common use among the lowest common denominator.


You continue to believe that people presented with truth and facts will actually react to those truths and facts as such.  What is missing in your (and too often mine) analysis is that truth and facts don't matter - the ends justifies the means!   No matter how intellectually dishonest it is.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 19, 2017, 10:09:09 pm
At least the stories are based in some intelligence and are being pursued by legitimate investigations. It may take a couple of years but trump's group will eventually be exposed. Birthers, Pizzagate and Clinton murderer people will forever depend on rumor, fantasy, myth and alternative facts. The only surprise to me is how easily educated people are duped. But then that's what keeps con men going. The victims wanting to be taken.

I know what you mean by educated people being duped (and these figures where at a time when Russia was hacking the election)  ::)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C905HBtUIAAHpQz.jpg:large)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 19, 2017, 10:27:18 pm
God Bless Us, Every One!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9oT8ZHV0AA0xU5.jpg)

Another one

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9rMIV_XYAADv_P.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2017, 10:28:33 pm
Oh, no!! Bill O'Reilly was fired by Fake Fox News! Now what are his viewers going to do for gold coins and self-lubricating catheters!!??

It's a sad day for America! And for those RWRE who are gonna miss a sexual predator on a national stage - all is not lost - there is still Trump!!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 19, 2017, 11:50:24 pm
Oh, no!! Bill O'Reilly was fired by Fake Fox News! Now what are his viewers going to do for gold coins and self-lubricating catheters!!??

It's a said day for America! And for those RWRE who are gonna miss a sexual predator on a national stage - all is not lost - there is still Trump!!



I hear Trump is looking to hire O'Reilly as his right hand man.  From what I understand that's the hand he does all the grabbing with.   ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 20, 2017, 10:44:49 am
Trumps new stance on timber and dairy issues in the US........

(http://i.imgur.com/6swwzUJ.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 20, 2017, 11:31:49 am
I know what you mean by educated people being duped (and these figures where at a time when Russia was hacking the election)  ::)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C905HBtUIAAHpQz.jpg:large)

I don't think you do. Pollsters are about as successful as Shamans. This one was good, having forecast the previous two presidential elections very well but didn't put enough weight on the shenanigans of our traitorous republican brethren including the last minute Comey screwup. Who would have guessed their efforts at voter fraud and collusion would be so effective? Well, maybe you did....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 20, 2017, 01:01:35 pm
I don't think you do. Pollsters are about as successful as Shamans. This one was good, having forecast the previous two presidential elections very well but didn't put enough weight on the shenanigans of our traitorous republican brethren including the last minute Comey screwup. Who would have guessed their efforts at voter fraud and collusion would be so effective? Well, maybe you did....

Plus, there was that little factoid of the popular vote margin.  Republicans tend to gloss over that.  Of the five elections in US history where this occured (the winner of the electoral college vote did not win a majority of the physical votes) the last two were in the last twenty year and both Republican candidates.  The last time before GWB to have that happen?  Benjamin Harrison in 1888.  And then all the exaggerations from 45 saying he won in a landslide.

LOL.  304 of 538 electoral votes hardly constitutes a 'landslide'.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 01:10:36 pm
I don't think you do. Pollsters are about as successful as Shamans. This one was good, having forecast the previous two presidential elections very well but didn't put enough weight on the shenanigans of our traitorous republican brethren including the last minute Comey screwup. Who would have guessed their efforts at voter fraud and collusion would be so effective? Well, maybe you did....

Is this you 4/20 post? Because it sure reads like one. Remember, it is puff, puff, PASS. You didn't pass again.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2017, 01:19:38 pm
Is this you 4/20 post? Because it sure reads like one. Remember, it is puff, puff, PASS. You didn't pass again.


Hope you have better comebacks in court...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 02:57:33 pm
Some people visiting with the president today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C93KizoXsAA2yqe.jpg:large)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 20, 2017, 03:39:14 pm
Some people visiting with the president today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C93KizoXsAA2yqe.jpg:large)

White Trash in the White House!

Awesome!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 20, 2017, 04:13:10 pm
White Trash in the White House!

Awesome!


Awesome?  We have two pedophiles occupying the WH at the same time!

As well as a draft-dodger...oh, wait two of them.  One who crapped in his pants to avoid the draft!

How classy!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 04:29:00 pm
The mental image I have of Hoss being led around a leash.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/37/3f/1c/373f1c6ebc75e90326cb5c936abbcd4d.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 04:31:50 pm
White Trash in the White House!

Awesome!


I agree. We need more Sharpton in the white house!!!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 04:32:52 pm
Awesome?  We have two pedophiles occupying the WH at the same time!

As well as a draft-dodger...oh, wait two of them.  One who crapped in his pants to avoid the draft!

How classy!

I forgot. What branch of the military did you serve in?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 20, 2017, 04:35:29 pm
I agree. We need more Sharpton in the white house!!!

Hey, Sharpton and Trump are kinda like the same guy. Both are classic New York City narcissistic con men, both are racists too. One just happened to be born wealthy and white.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 04:39:48 pm
Hey, Sharpton and Trump are kinda like the same guy. Both are classic New York City narcissistic con men, both are racists too. One just happened to be born wealthy and white.

(https://m.popkey.co/6c22a7/X1jdg_f-maxage-0.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 20, 2017, 05:19:14 pm
Is this you 4/20 post? Because it sure reads like one. Remember, it is puff, puff, PASS. You didn't pass again.

I wish.... :D I had to educate my co-workers today to watch for 420 behavior. Tulsa traffic is pretty indicative of some serious celebrating though.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2017, 05:47:20 pm
I wish.... :D I had to educate my co-workers today to watch for 420 behavior. Tulsa traffic is pretty indicative of some serious celebrating though.


 ;D

(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/272/322/262.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 20, 2017, 06:08:16 pm
Tulsa traffic is pretty indicative of some serious celebrating though.

That's pretty much year-round.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 20, 2017, 06:13:03 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C93KizoXsAA2yqe.jpg:large)

I recognize the guy in the red tie.  Who are the others?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 02:46:48 am
Uh-oh. Just read a government official investigating Russia hacking the election and stealing it from Hillary is leaving. You know what that means...

http://time.com/4749808/mary-mccord-justice-department-donald-trump-russia/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 21, 2017, 07:14:19 am
Uh-oh. Just read a government official investigating Russia hacking the election and stealing it from Hillary is leaving. You know what that means...

http://time.com/4749808/mary-mccord-justice-department-donald-trump-russia/
That's the Trump admin has been running a Nixonesque suppression campaign and she's about to go Public? The AGs office under Sessions does seem to have issues understanding legal issues and government. Seriously simple things like Hawaii being a state and a federal judge being a federal judge regardless of location.

Quote
I really am amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the president of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and constitutional power


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2017, 07:51:52 am
I forgot. What branch of the military did you serve in?


As if that has anything to do with anything related to this thread or most of politics....  but keep trying.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2017, 07:57:30 am
I recognize the guy in the red tie.  Who are the others?

Red,

You are kidding, aren't you?

You are plenty old enough to have grown up listening to the Amboy Dukes!   And don't even try to tell us you never sat in the car after arriving where you were going so you could finish listening to "Stranglehold"...

I thought Sarah was one of the darlings of your people...??   What happened that you don't recognize her in that mess??

Understandable that you might not recognize Kid Rock, but the Fedora with the brim pulled down ought to be recognizable by at least 99% of the population!

The other two females, I must confess I don't know...perhaps significant others??  Or Trumps latest molestees??  Both??  Or country music stars - I would never know them...





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on April 21, 2017, 11:04:47 am
I recognize the guy in the red tie.  Who are the others?

Elly May, Jethro, Granny, Jed , Pearl, Shorty, Cousin Roy on their way to the Cement Pond.

Some stop by for a quick middle-finger salute at a random portrait:

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/04/21/us/21visitors/21visitors-master768.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin/photos/a.10150723283643588.424640.24718773587/10155260183773588/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2017, 11:18:43 am
Elly May, Jethro, Granny, Jed , Pearl, Shorty, Cousin Roy on their way to the Cement Pond.

Some stop by for a quick middle-finger salute at a random portrait:

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/04/21/us/21visitors/21visitors-master768.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin/photos/a.10150723283643588.424640.24718773587/10155260183773588/



Don't be insulting the Clampetts like that - they were good, honest, decent, hard working people!!  Don't try to drag them down to this level !!





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on April 21, 2017, 11:37:40 am
Elly May, Jethro, Granny, Jed , Pearl, Shorty, Cousin Roy on their way to the Cement Pond.

Some stop by for a quick middle-finger salute at a random portrait:

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/04/21/us/21visitors/21visitors-master768.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin/photos/a.10150723283643588.424640.24718773587/10155260183773588/


From a Facebook post "The hitter, the quitter and the shitter."


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 21, 2017, 12:24:57 pm
From a Facebook post "The hitter, the quitter and the shitter."

Bahahaha!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 01:05:56 pm
Trump signing EO/memos on reducing the complications of taxes and review of Dodd-Frank. Looks like tax reduction plan coming soon.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 01:21:17 pm

As if that has anything to do with anything related to this thread or most of politics....  but keep trying.


Of course people who accuse someone of being a draft dodger or refusing military service, but themselves dodged military service, is unrelated to the subject of military service.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 01:23:54 pm
Elly May, Jethro, Granny, Jed , Pearl, Shorty, Cousin Roy on their way to the Cement Pond.

Some stop by for a quick middle-finger salute at a random portrait:

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/04/21/us/21visitors/21visitors-master768.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin/photos/a.10150723283643588.424640.24718773587/10155260183773588/


You mean like this? Oh wait. No. This happened in Obama's white house.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-0-13BE4EB3000005DC-85_306x417.jpg)


(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-0-13BE514B000005DC-851_306x423.jpg)





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 21, 2017, 01:37:29 pm
Some people visiting with the president today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C93KizoXsAA2yqe.jpg:large)

The headline read "Trump briefly not dumbest person in the White House today".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 21, 2017, 02:06:01 pm
You mean like this? Oh wait. No. This happened in Obama's white house.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-0-13BE4EB3000005DC-85_306x417.jpg)


(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-0-13BE514B000005DC-851_306x423.jpg)



http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/24/white-house-criticizes-visitors-flipping-off-reagan-portrait/
Quote
(CNN) - The White House chided two visitors who posed for photographs in the White House while giving the middle finger to a portrait of former President Ronald Reagan.

The guests visited 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as part of a reception marking gay pride month and the pictures were later included in a Philadelphia Magazine article.


A White House spokesman said such behavior does not belong at the White House.

“While the White house does not control the conduct of guests at receptions, we certainly expect that all attendees conduct themselves in a respectful manner. Most all do," Shin Inouye, a White House spokesman, said. "These individuals clearly did not. Behavior like this doesn’t belong anywhere, least of all in the White House."


I'm not holding my breath for something similar from this White House. Because they invited Nugent at all.
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2584366.1459454206!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/nugent1n-2-web.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 02:09:48 pm
Are we getting close to maximum butt hurt in here? Come on. This is getting good.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 21, 2017, 05:19:31 pm
Are we getting close to maximum butt hurt in here? Come on. This is getting good.


"maximum butt hurt", why do you act like a child?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 05:50:46 pm

"maximum butt hurt", why do you act like a child?

Did you not see your last post? Get some self-awareness. The amount of whining and sore losering by you and several others in this entire thread defines childish. I will not even get into the make believe world you live in which has you convinced that Hillary lost because of something Russia did. 

Get a hold of yourself, buck up, and deal.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 21, 2017, 06:42:00 pm
Did you not see your last post? Get some self-awareness. The amount of whining and sore losering by you and several others in this entire thread defines childish. I will not even get into the make believe world you live in which has you convinced that Hillary lost because of something Russia did.  

Get a hold of yourself, buck up, and deal.

Am I upset that you elected an incompetent, narcissistic conman for president that seems bent on hurting the people of this country to enrich himself and his buddies, yeah, that's upsetting.  Politics to you have always been more about tribal winning and losing than doing good for the country, your only issue that you seem to care about is lowering your own taxes. You got yours, screw everyone else. Well, that's a pretty bankrupt view on life. Oh, and you care about your ability to tell women what to do with their bodies. But to hell with the resultant children.

That's not "whining and sore losering", it's real concern over what this idiot is doing. Are you under the impression that something he is doing is positive? I mean other than  promising to lower your own taxes. Anything else?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 21, 2017, 07:36:23 pm
Am I upset that you elected an incompetent, narcissistic conman for president that seems bent on hurting the people of this country to enrich himself and his buddies, yeah, that's upsetting.  

I am disappointed that the Democratic Party could/would not nominate someone I could have voted for.  I did not vote for Trump but could not vote for Hillary.  I intentionally wasted my vote on that guy from NM.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on April 21, 2017, 08:42:40 pm
I am disappointed that the Democratic Party could/would not nominate someone I could have voted for.  I did not vote for Trump but could not vote for Hillary.  I intentionally wasted my vote on that guy from NM.



There's a lot of "if only" coming from the Sanders die hards. I think if he had been the nominee, the contrast between him and Trump would have been even starker, but I'm not sure he could have won. Regardless, the Bernie Bros insist there was a DNC cabal that denied him wider support. They forget that he's an Independent and the DC exists to back Democrats.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 21, 2017, 08:42:48 pm
I am disappointed that the Democratic Party could/would not nominate someone I could have voted for.  I did not vote for Trump but could not vote for Hillary.  I intentionally wasted my vote on that guy from NM.



I disagree with that, but I understand it. Clinton v Trump was a failure of our political system.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2017, 08:58:03 pm
... your only issue that you seem to care about is lowering your own taxes. You got yours, screw everyone else...

That is the dumbest thing you have written about me. I have been, and will remain an almost exclusive one issue voter: Which candidate is anti-abortion. That's it. My second issue, if both candidates are anti-abortion? Who supports our military and will protect this country best. Tax policy? Down the list.

And watch the "screw everyone else" crap. Charitable giving and helping those without is a large portion of my life. Almost a mission. 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 21, 2017, 11:51:07 pm
I disagree with that, but I understand it. Clinton v Trump was a failure of our political system.

On both sides.  What a miserable choice.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 21, 2017, 11:52:37 pm
There's a lot of "if only" coming from the Sanders die hards. I think if he had been the nominee, the contrast between him and Trump would have been even starker, but I'm not sure he could have won. Regardless, the Bernie Bros insist there was a DNC cabal that denied him wider support. They forget that he's an Independent and the DC exists to back Democrats.



I joked about voting for Sanders because I wanted free stuff but don't think I really could have voted for Sanders.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on April 22, 2017, 08:05:07 am
I joked about voting for Sanders because I wanted free stuff but don't think I really could have voted for Sanders.

I voted for him in the primary because I believed both then and now that he didn't have a chance of beining nominated, much less prevailing in the general election. So yes, mine was a protest vote against more of the same.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 22, 2017, 10:07:52 am
I voted for him in the primary because I believed both then and now that he didn't have a chance of beining nominated, much less prevailing in the general election. So yes, mine was a protest vote against more of the same.

He may have mobilized more of the younger demo that absolutely hated Hillary that stayed home for the general, so no one would ever have known.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 22, 2017, 10:11:47 am
So yes, mine was a protest vote against more of the same.

Well, we certainly got something different.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 22, 2017, 05:00:41 pm
(http://static.animalpolitico.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/contrato-trump.jpg)

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump
No matter how much I accomplish during the ridiculous standard of the first 100 days, & it has been a lot (including S.C.), media will kill!
5:50 AM - 21 Apr 2017
13,989 13,989 Retweets 67,652 67,652 likes


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 24, 2017, 07:51:09 am
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/856387956482875393


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 08:11:14 am
Of course people who accuse someone of being a draft dodger or refusing military service, but themselves dodged military service, is unrelated to the subject of military service.


Lol...you really are out of practice!   Come on, get back into the courtroom and step it up here!! 





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 08:17:31 am

And watch the "screw everyone else" crap. Charitable giving and helping those without is a large portion of my life. Almost a mission.  



Careful... I know - it's really tough to talk about good deed stuff without a backdrop reference as when I go on about Salvation Army.  Fine line...

http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/6.htm





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 08:21:01 am
I joked about voting for Sanders because I wanted free stuff but don't think I really could have voted for Sanders.


Yeah, he was way too much into working for the other 99%...never would have worked out...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 08:22:08 am
(http://static.animalpolitico.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/contrato-trump.jpg)

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump
No matter how much I accomplish during the ridiculous standard of the first 100 days, & it has been a lot (including S.C.), media will kill!
5:50 AM - 21 Apr 2017
13,989 13,989 Retweets 67,652 67,652 likes



Another Contract On America. 

Think Newt....




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 24, 2017, 09:17:02 am

Yeah, he was way too much into working for the other 99%...never would have worked out...


He did seem like a populist which is hot right now. I liked much about his message but frankly he hasn't produced much in Congress where he has little or no constituency (just like trump) and has a lot of baggage that women didn't care for in his past (also like trump). Add to that the fact he would carry the Socialist moniker and you had the prescription for a disastrous presidential campaign and even if he won another 4 years of stalemate and personal attack from conservatives. Net: failed presidency.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 11:00:07 am
Here is the reality of Trump's "job creation" fantasy.  Least American made product from Boeing in the history of the company.

6,000 jobs or 8% of Washington workforce eliminated last year.  Another 6,000 scheduled for this year.  PLUS 1,500 'voluntary redundancies' to get axed.

And discussion of these type results, plus the self-admitted Trump facts of pedophilia, sexual predator, calling POW's cowards, insulting everyone, and lying about everything is considered butt-hurt in some quarters.  Not to mention calling up Putin to tell him we were gonna bomb Syrian airfield so they could move equipment/personnel out of harms way...as reported by Trump's Pentagon spokesperson.  I really do wonder about the moral/ethical compass of the butt-hurt battalion...still supporting the Pedophile in Chief after all that is known about him..!!


http://www.theage.com.au/business/aviation/in-the-worlds-biggest-building-boeing-workers-wait-for-trumps-promised-jobs-20170321-gv2rqk.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 24, 2017, 03:31:57 pm
Here is the reality of Trump's "job creation" fantasy.  Least American made product from Boeing in the history of the company.

6,000 jobs or 8% of Washington workforce eliminated last year.  Another 6,000 scheduled for this year.  PLUS 1,500 'voluntary redundancies' to get axed.

And discussion of these type results, plus the self-admitted Trump facts of pedophilia, sexual predator, calling POW's cowards, insulting everyone, and lying about everything is considered butt-hurt in some quarters.  Not to mention calling up Putin to tell him we were gonna bomb Syrian airfield so they could move equipment/personnel out of harms way...as reported by Trump's Pentagon spokesperson.  I really do wonder about the moral/ethical compass of the butt-hurt battalion...still supporting the Pedophile in Chief after all that is known about him..!!


http://www.theage.com.au/business/aviation/in-the-worlds-biggest-building-boeing-workers-wait-for-trumps-promised-jobs-20170321-gv2rqk.html



Dirty Steve in the spirit world has apparently hacked hieron's TNF account...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT4UmxqoFt4


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 04:15:24 pm
Dirty Steve in the spirit world has apparently hacked hieron's TNF account...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT4UmxqoFt4




Just hate it when reality comes to visit, don'cha?

No spirits - just reminiscing about Trump's past utterances and actions.  Wish it was a spirit world phenomenon - then we could all wake up and this s$$$ would be over....

But in the meantime - how big is that chicken??


I am curious - exactly what about that airplane visit was feeding into the Fake Fox News world of "making America great again" ??  Other than Trump's total disconnect from what is actually going on in "the biggest building in the world"....




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: patric on April 25, 2017, 09:28:48 am
Ivanka Trump Is Jeered in Berlin After Defending Her Father
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/ivanka-trump-is-jeered-in-berlin-after-defending-her-father.html


The Germans probably understand we were duped by a florid populist; they have a unique perspective on that.
Im sincerely gratified to know they are still allies with America.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 10:00:20 am
Ivanka Trump Is Jeered in Berlin After Defending Her Father
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/ivanka-trump-is-jeered-in-berlin-after-defending-her-father.html


The Germans probably understand we were duped by a florid populist; they have a unique perspective on that.
Im sincerely gratified to know they are still allies with America.

I think there is a huge mis-read of what happened in the election. People were not "duped" as much as I think people were just weary of the status quo, or professional politician. So much so that the elected a complete imbecile, BUT he wasn't a career politician. Now, that being said, you will probably be able to find some people out there that truly believe Trump is a great whatever, same as I could probably find those that think the Clinton's are as innocent as a lamb. But I would wager that by and large people were not voting for Trump as much as they were voting against Hillary.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 10:34:58 am
I think there is a huge mis-read of what happened in the election. People were not "duped" as much as I think people were just weary of the status quo, or professional politician. So much so that the elected a complete imbecile, BUT he wasn't a career politician. Now, that being said, you will probably be able to find some people out there that truly believe Trump is a great whatever, same as I could probably find those that think the Clinton's are as innocent as a lamb. But I would wager that by and large people were not voting for Trump as much as they were voting against Hillary.


Duped.   Elected a swamp dweller to bring in all his swamp friends to drain the swamp.  People wanted some things - he lied about giving them to them - and they still won't get what they want.  Coal will never come back to eclipse natural gas.  Steel has never really gone away, just morphed into a different type of product with about the same level of business activity as for generations - just fewer people due to better processes.  Boeing will continue to make a smaller percentage of their planes here.  Big 3 car manufacturing will continue to go to Mexico because of incompetent management while Toyota, Honda, Nissan, et al will continue to have more plants here because they actually know how to do manufacturing for a global economy!  And the real cause of loss of jobs - NOT illegal immigrants - automation...will never go away so more hands on labor will be needed.  As in the steel industry...  Fantasy worlds of wishful thinking.  And a liar to make them think it can happen.  It is the Luddites all over again.  See what is missed with no knowledge or understanding of history by a large group of people?

Saw one of those polls that came out this week that said something like 94% or 96% of the people who voted for Trump would still vote for him.  That shows where the hard core 19% of people eligible to vote have their heads.  

I bet another election would see a much different turn out - the people in Michigan and the swing states that gave Trump the electoral college, who voted for the 'other' candidates, are probably wishing they had not for the most part.  


As for "Killary" - well, if you ever wanna go beyond the sound bite world, check into the comments and books by Kenneth Starr and David Brock.  The guys who were employed and paid to make up and spread most of the lies you have grown up with about the Clinton's....  They may not be "innocent" but they certainly are not guilty - especially when you do a side by side comparison of the people going after them the most.  Goes to perspective...as always!





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 10:54:06 am

Duped.   Elected a swamp dweller to bring in all his swamp friends to drain the swamp.  People wanted some things - he lied about giving them to them - and they still won't get what they want.  Coal will never come back to eclipse natural gas.  Steel has never really gone away, just morphed into a different type of product with about the same level of business activity as for generations - just fewer people due to better processes.  Boeing will continue to make a smaller percentage of their planes here.  Big 3 car manufacturing will continue to go to Mexico because of incompetent management while Toyota, Honda, Nissan, et al will continue to have more plants here because they actually know how to do manufacturing for a global economy!  And the real cause of loss of jobs - NOT illegal immigrants - automation...will never go away so more hands on labor will be needed.  As in the steel industry...  Fantasy worlds of wishful thinking.  And a liar to make them think it can happen.  It is the Luddites all over again.  See what is missed with no knowledge or understanding of history by a large group of people?

Saw one of those polls that came out this week that said something like 94% or 96% of the people who voted for Trump would still vote for him.  That shows where the hard core 19% of people eligible to vote have their heads.  

I bet another election would see a much different turn out - the people in Michigan and the swing states that gave Trump the electoral college, who voted for the 'other' candidates, are probably wishing they had not for the most part.  


As for "Killary" - well, if you ever wanna go beyond the sound bite world, check into the comments and books by Kenneth Starr and David Brock.  The guys who were employed and paid to make up and spread most of the lies you have grown up with about the Clinton's....  They may not be "innocent" but they certainly are not guilty - especially when you do a side by side comparison of the people going after them the most.  Goes to perspective...as always!





My perspective is that pretty much anyone who has attained the presidency has probably taken part in nefarious activity, political party is a non-issue.

And Hillary did things intended to hide things. It doesn't take a rocket science to see that. But I'm sure she was just trying to hide her yoga schedule.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 25, 2017, 10:56:27 am
In that they believed he would/could do what he promised, they were duped. Change is one thing. We all get tired of the same and think new and different is going to be better, more exciting and easier. They were duped because he had no idea what the job entailed and they couldn't figure that out. they are still duped as they swallow the idea that "he's flexible in his extreme positions" rather than he flip flopped because he found out he couldn't do what he said he could with the inept choices he made to run the government. First the coal miners figured it out, then the farmers, then manufacturing. That is why his approval ratings are hovering around 40% or less depending on the source.

 You anti-Hillary types always gloss over the fact that she won the popular vote by some 3 million. A huge amount historically. Unless you choose to follow sources that make up their own stuff to suit his needs.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 11:12:55 am
My perspective is that pretty much anyone who has attained the presidency has probably taken part in nefarious activity, political party is a non-issue.

And Hillary did things intended to hide things. It doesn't take a rocket science to see that. But I'm sure she was just trying to hide her yoga schedule.


And Trump is trying to hide his motel videos in Moscow...   Wonder what his tax returns are hiding?  All that business activity and the huge billion dollar interconnections he has to Putin in Russia....?



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 11:49:28 am

And Trump is trying to hide his motel videos in Moscow...   Wonder what his tax returns are hiding?  All that business activity and the huge billion dollar interconnections he has to Putin in Russia....?



What does that have to do with anything I just said. It is reflexive?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 12:02:02 pm
What does that have to do with anything I just said. It is reflexive?


Your quote was, "And Hillary did things intended to hide things. It doesn't take a rocket science to see that. But I'm sure she was just trying to hide her yoga schedule."

Just to a lessor degree than Trump.

Elaboration, explanation, and enhancement.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 12:04:31 pm
For those most seriously distressed by the Trump Presidency, there are alternative options (not to be confused with alternative facts...!)


http://www.ic.org/



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 25, 2017, 12:21:04 pm
Ivanka Trump Is Jeered in Berlin After Defending Her Father
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/ivanka-trump-is-jeered-in-berlin-after-defending-her-father.html


The Germans probably understand we were duped by a florid populist; they have a unique perspective on that.
Im sincerely gratified to know they are still allies with America.

Meh. They were jeering Ivanka because she is married to a Jew. And because Trump has a thing about immigrants coming into this country and raping/killing its citizens.  :P


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 12:47:29 pm

Your quote was, "And Hillary did things intended to hide things. It doesn't take a rocket science to see that. But I'm sure she was just trying to hide her yoga schedule."

Just to a lessor degree than Trump.

Elaboration, explanation, and enhancement.



It's what con men do to distract people, that's what it is.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 01:00:16 pm
It's what con men do to distract people, that's what it is.



And since Trump is the biggest con man of all...he has the most to hide.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 01:32:43 pm

And since Trump is the biggest con man of all...he has the most to hide.



The Poster Child for TDS.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 02:54:11 pm
The Poster Child for TDS.


Awww...how cute.  Feeble attempt at projection!!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 25, 2017, 03:55:33 pm

Awww...how cute.  Feeble attempt at projection!!


Seriously.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 04:44:20 pm

Awww...how cute.  Feeble attempt at projection!!


Mirrors apparently do not exist in your home.  ::)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 04:51:16 pm
If you would have noticed I used the conjunction "and" up there to show similarities between Trump and Clinton. I was by no means insinuating that Trump was innocent and Clinton not. The comment was about how people that attain the presidency or near it are all corrupt. Trump & Clinton were the last two to run. Am I not to mention the name Clinton ever again henceforth.

But go ahead and say I have no perspective.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 25, 2017, 05:12:38 pm
Its your premise that is flawed. Its cynical, largely unsubstantiated and a good reason to never vote. You're saying that the likes of Washington, Wilson, Hoover, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Ford, Carter and Obama.... were by default ALL CORRUPT! That is too much of a stretch. Keep your conspiracies at least manageable.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 05:14:24 pm
Its your premise that is flawed. Its cynical, largely unsubstantiated and a good reason to never vote. You're saying that the likes of Washington, Wilson, Hoover, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Ford, Carter and Obama.... were by default ALL CORRUPT! That is too much of a stretch. Keep your conspiracies at least manageable.

Not wholesale corruption, but each have skirted or downright ignored laws. There is a certain personality trait that I would dare to say they all share. Power hungry people generally do not stop to ask for permission. The result often is human carnage.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 25, 2017, 05:15:35 pm
Its your premise that is flawed. Its cynical, largely unsubstantiated and a good reason to never vote. You're saying that the likes of Washington, Wilson, Hoover, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Ford, Carter and Obama.... were by default ALL CORRUPT! That is too much of a stretch. Keep your conspiracies at least manageable.

I'm sure he believes the Clinton foundation was the dirty one and Trump's was lilly clean. Even though the Clinton Foundation got A ratings and the Trump Foundation was forced to close and was found to be self dealing multiple times.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 05:24:20 pm
I'm sure he believes the Clinton foundation was the dirty one and Trump's was lilly clean. Even though the Clinton Foundation got A ratings and the Trump Foundation was forced to close and was found to be self dealing multiple times.

Can you guys even read for pete sake. You are having an argument against a figment of your imaginations. Coincidentally, you always seem to win.

The only person here that claimed ANYONE was innocent was herion claiming Clinton was. Period. End of story. You guys are the ones projecting. 


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 25, 2017, 05:37:53 pm
Your cynicism betrays you. Washington for heaven's sake?! Reagan?! Wilson?! I guess its all in how you define corruption and how hard you look for it. How many years you doggedly investigate, and how little it takes to "skirt" the edges of corruption. We argue because we're waiting for something of substance and all we get is dogma.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 25, 2017, 06:11:05 pm
Trumpie now seems hell bent on getting to play with his boats and planes in Korea. Yay, now he's gonna show the world who has small hands.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 25, 2017, 06:31:55 pm
Saw this on my FB feed today and thought it funny.

https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/videos/1805766459434324/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 06:55:29 pm
Saw this on my FB feed today and thought it funny.

https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/videos/1805766459434324/

I'm actually quite pleased at the first 100 days, and not at all surprised. Nothing really notable happened, therefore nothing really bad happened. I believe I may have even made comments on this board that Trump would likely be not near as threatening to the republic as some were making it out to be (I'm looking at you Swake). I'm sure this comment will be mis-read into something that means that I think Trump is great and Clinton is evil and I'm wrong and you all are right. I wonder where my cynicism comes from because in my real life, I am generally known as an eternal optimist who thinks the best of everyone (to a fault).


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on April 25, 2017, 07:01:38 pm
You anti-Hillary types always gloss over the fact that she won the popular vote by some 3 million.

If  that's all she could beat the Trumpster by, she deserved to lose the Electoral College vote.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 10:10:36 pm
Can you guys even read for pete sake. You are having an argument against a figment of your imaginations. Coincidentally, you always seem to win.

The only person here that claimed ANYONE was innocent was herion claiming Clinton was. Period. End of story. You guys are the ones projecting.  


I almost hate to use your own words on you, but re-read your first sentence above.

I did NOT claim Clinton - either one of them - was innocent!   The RWRE amongst us puts me in a position I really don't care for - appearing to defend the Clintons, which I am not, I am arguing against the lies about them...big difference.  I don't like the Clinton's very much at all, but for the right reasons - real reasons related to actions and policies I disagree with.  I don't dislike them for the made up sound bite lies perpetrated by that RWRE.

What I did say, I repeat;

"As for "Killary" - well, if you ever wanna go beyond the sound bite world, check into the comments and books by Kenneth Starr and David Brock.  The guys who were employed and paid to make up and spread most of the lies you have grown up with about the Clinton's....  They may not be "innocent" but they certainly are not guilty - especially when you do a side by side comparison of the people going after them the most.  Goes to perspective...as always!"


I encourage anyone to go see what these two guys have said about them and what they did for many years at the bidding of the RWRE shadow government - headed up by the Republican party - as specifically stated by David Brock.  So if the guys who were paid to make up the lies and spewed them for decades turn around and admit they were lies, then what is it one should take away from that??   Real question - will take some thought to come up with a post-sound-bite answer.... please try!


As for perspective, well, it goes to the idea of the mote in one's eye versus the beam in the RWRE eye....explanation/elaboration in the Bible if one is interested.  Personally, I tend to put added "bad" weight on things that are much worse.  Couple of examples...Billy Bob lied to us about an event in the Oval office that left stains.  I consider that to be a "1" unit of lying.  At the same time, the main Inquisitor - Newt - was in the middle of a 10+ year episode where he had his w$ore, all the while not just lying about it to us, but pontificating about Billy Bob - not to mention the episode at his real wife's hospital bed.  I consider that to be at least 2 units and if there were proportional allocation, it would probably be something along the lines of giving Billy 1 "year" credit for his one event, while Newt would get 10 units for his 10+ years event.  What proportion would you put on it?  We know what Fake Fox News says - Newt is a great American hero, sort of...

Or apply Billy Bob's 1 unit of lying and compare to Baby Bush lying about Iraq to get us into the wrong war - not only squandering $4 trillion dollars...which I would gladly forget all about IF we could get the more than 4,000 of our kids back who were killed in that horrible event plus undo the damage done to the tens of thousands who were wounded/injured !!   I would say spend another $4 trillion if we could get them back!

But in Fake Fox News world, that is still considered a noble quest - even though we are still living with the ridiculous adverse effects from it.  How do you feel about it??  Was Billy Bob's lie the same as Baby Bush's?? That is what the meaning of perspective is... as I have explained repeatedly and will likely have to continue to explain to the sound bite denizens.


EDIT;

One more thing - along with squandering trillions, killing thousands and wounding tens of thousands more of our own - we haven't even talked lately about the horrendous toll on the other side!!   One of the justifications we heard for this carp was that Saddam Hussein was so evil because over the 25 years or so he was in business, he killed an estimated 75,000 to 200,000 of his own people!  So, we go in and end up killing somewhere around 900,000 to 1 million civilians.  Men, women, and children.  Not many men left in that toll because so many had already been killed in our and other wars.   

Now we are being groomed to go into another war with Syria and Iran.  Guess we haven't satisfied that desire to kill millions, huh?   Not to mention what is gonna go on in Korea.    Yeah, we are gonna "make America great again..."   Trumpy's have so much to be proud about !!














Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 25, 2017, 10:44:26 pm
If  that's all she could beat the Trumpster by, she deserved to lose the Electoral College vote.

She would have won by 5 million votes, if it wasn't of course for the Russians.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 26, 2017, 08:38:10 am
If  that's all she could beat the Trumpster by, she deserved to lose the Electoral College vote.
She won by more than Bush in 2004, Carter in76, Gore in 2000, Kennedy in 1960 and Nixon in 1968. But, I agree, she lost the Electoral College vote and that was the one that mattered. We have become a pretty ignorant voting population that trump could even make it through the primary.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 26, 2017, 08:43:20 am
She would have won by 5 million votes, if it wasn't of course for the Russians.

Ha! Good to see you moving towards the light! Flynn turns out to be an agent for the Russians. The other agent, Manafort and the rest of the crew did do damage but unclear how much. Money and influence are easy to hide from this Congress.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 26, 2017, 09:23:15 am
Ha! Good to see you moving towards the light! Flynn turns out to be an agent for the Russians. The other agent, Manafort and the rest of the crew did do damage but unclear how much. Money and influence are easy to hide from this Congress.

Don't forget Comey disclosing the reopening of the investigation into Clinton and NOT disclosing the investigation into Trump.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2017, 09:36:47 am
We have become a pretty ignorant voting population that trump could even make it through the primary.

Shut the interwebz down for the rest of the day.  Aqua wins!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2017, 09:49:27 am
Don't forget Comey disclosing the reopening of the investigation into Clinton and NOT disclosing the investigation into Trump.

Serious?  There was more than enough bad publicity from claims of corrupt business practices, rape, and pedophilia going around about Trump.  He was assaulted from the get go by recalcitrant influential Republicans who were still refusing to jump in the boat with him after the primaries.  Admit it, Hillary IS the whole reason Trump got elected, she was a horrible candidate.  

Not Russian conspiracies.
Not Comey reopening an investigation into Clinton.
Not inflammatory DNC emails.

Hillary was a bad candidate from the start.  Her charisma is fake as all get out, the Clintons embody the corruption associated with Washington in modern times.

The DNC failed by rigging the primary system in her favor and by not encouraging someone stronger than Bernie to run against her in the primary.  Bernie was little more than a shill to energize the more left leaning and young idealists in the party as HRC could be seen as being a dowdy moderate based on experience from WJC’s years in the White House.

Look what won them the White House in 1992 and 2008- young charismatic candidates people could feel good about voting for.  Had the Democrats run someone like Julian Castro, I doubt we’d be listening to all these lame conspiracy theories about why Trump won, he would have been soundly defeated.

I also still don’t think the U.S. is ready for a female POTUS.  I believe we will have a Hispanic POTUS before we have a female.  YMMV.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2017, 09:57:43 am
Serious?  There was more than enough bad publicity from claims of corrupt business practices, rape, and pedophilia going around about Trump.  He was assaulted from the get go by recalcitrant influential Republicans who were still refusing to jump in the boat with him after the primaries.  Admit it, Hillary IS the whole reason Trump got elected, she was a horrible candidate.  

Not Russian conspiracies.
Not Comey reopening an investigation into Clinton.
Not inflammatory DNC emails.

Hillary was a bad candidate from the start.  Her charisma is fake as all get out, the Clintons embody the corruption associated with Washington in modern times.

The DNC failed by rigging the primary system in her favor and by not encouraging someone stronger than Bernie to run against her in the primary.  Bernie was little more than a shill to energize the more left leaning and young idealists in the party as HRC could be seen as being a dowdy moderate based on experience from WJC’s years in the White House.

Look what won them the White House in 1992 and 2008- young charismatic candidates people could feel good about voting for.  Had the Democrats run someone like Julian Castro, I doubt we’d be listening to all these lame conspiracy theories about why Trump won, he would have been soundly defeated.

I also still don’t think the U.S. is ready for a female POTUS.  I believe we will have a Hispanic POTUS before we have a female.  YMMV.


And even as bad as she was, she still got way more popular vote, and in reality barely missed on the electoral vote...in basically 3 states where a total of about 100,000 made the difference....that is squeaky close! 






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2017, 12:50:20 pm

And even as bad as she was, she still got way more popular vote, and in reality barely missed on the electoral vote...in basically 3 states where a total of about 100,000 made the difference....that is squeaky close! 


If if’n and buts were candy and nuts, it would be Christmas every day.  She lost her bid for the White House, end of story.   

It’s binary.  You win or you lose.  She lost because she was a bad candidate.  Seriously, how bucking bad do you have to be to lose to Donald Trump?

The Democrats lost the White House because their leadership the Clintons made sure the DNC would make HRC the candidate.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 26, 2017, 04:15:47 pm
Saw this on FB, not sure if accurate. If so, it has my blessing.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18193829_10209033051763553_2283616806263110046_n.jpg?oh=c80229f298863026701d01b3ef51e1c9&oe=59C0FAB4)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 26, 2017, 05:01:57 pm
Saw this on FB, not sure if accurate. If so, it has my blessing.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18193829_10209033051763553_2283616806263110046_n.jpg?oh=c80229f298863026701d01b3ef51e1c9&oe=59C0FAB4)

Color me shocked.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on April 26, 2017, 05:36:15 pm
Color me shocked.

And color me shocked if you oppose this.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Ed W on April 26, 2017, 06:03:02 pm
Color me shocked.

One of the administration's talking heads said that the "business tax cuts will pay for themselves through growth." Methinks I've heard this before.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 26, 2017, 06:22:25 pm
I like it being simplified. And the larger standard deduction is a good idea. But I am real skeptical that lowering the corporate rates so drastically can be made up with higher tax compliance or increased revenues. They were already utilizing so many tax schemes to lower their rates that it will likely be a wash. Its sort of like saying, "Lower the price boss. We'll make it up on volume!"

As usual, the devil will be in the details. Without some nudging of tax cut incentives in the code, businesses are prone to just keeping their largesse and not re-investing, expanding or sharing with employees.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on April 26, 2017, 06:25:44 pm
And color me shocked if you oppose this.

I support getting rid of or raising the AMT
I do not support ending the estate tax

With the rest of it there are not enough details for me to have a decision one way or the other. I'm not hopeful. On it's face it looks like it's a big tax cut for the wealthy. They aren't ending the deduction for charitable giving or mortgage interest with the lower rates. Those deductions would only be for the very wealthy after doubling the standard deduction. I also don't see capital gains mentioned anywhere in the plan. The most important details are in where the tax brackets fall and what other deductions remain.

Same goes for corp. taxes. If we leave all the deductions in place that allow companies like Apple and GE to not pay taxes and then also lower the nominal rate this is a terrible idea.

Personally, I would like much lower rates with progressive graduated tax brackets and removing all deductions. And no distinction on where money is earned, all earning are taxed the same. Very simple.

Also ending corporate taxes entirely and replace them with a VAT on both goods and services and federal property taxes. The VAT would be charged on exports and imports. Services would include off shore workers working for US companies. No deductions at all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2017, 08:46:21 am
It's still all about cutting taxes for the richest and saying that is gonna create enough "growth" -  9% per year in their current estimates - that the growth will pay for the cuts.

As has been known for decades, it is fantasy, voodoo economics.  It's "1%'er welfare".   And it will create even bigger deficits and higher debt than the Baby Bush fantasy tax cuts created.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2017, 11:13:36 am
The highest tax rates were enacted during the Eisenhower years. He made the argument that left to their own devices the more money corporate entities make, the less they spend on employees, expansion and research. They simply divide it among themselves and the stockholders. Because of that he felt that huge tax rates with deductions, write offs etc as incentives to redistribute (leverage) that wealth would be more productive for the country. He wasn't the first to figure that out either. What happened to those insightful, progressive Republicans?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on April 27, 2017, 11:38:33 am
What happened to those insightful, progressive Republicans?

cash incentives


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2017, 11:52:15 am
The highest tax rates were enacted during the Eisenhower years. He made the argument that left to their own devices the more money corporate entities make, the less they spend on employees, expansion and research. They simply divide it among themselves and the stockholders. Because of that he felt that huge tax rates with deductions, write offs etc as incentives to redistribute (leverage) that wealth would be more productive for the country. He wasn't the first to figure that out either. What happened to those insightful, progressive Republicans?


They got Reagan-ized !

And Bush-whacked !   Twice!!

The Hijacked Republican Party realized that if everyone benefited rather than just the few, then they could not benefit the most, nor gain massive amounts of power and control.  Warren Buffett and others, as well as Eisenhower tried to warn us, but the Fake Fox News Sound Bite machine was too overwhelming for reality.

One of the Big Lies the FFNS want you to believe is that any corporation ever pays those rates.  On average the median is closer to the 15% they tout as "good for the economy".  Well, we are already there!  And due to those deductions, exemptions, etc, many of the biggest corporations pay not taxes at all.  GE.  Trump.  etc.

But the Eisenhower types were actually concerned about the country and wanted all to do well.  Vastly different from the "I got mine..." world we live in today.  But none of these New Age HRP'ers have played the game Monopoly before.  They are sending us to the inevitable end point of every episode of that game!






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2017, 12:22:17 pm
I think Ike and Buffet realized that corporations are mules that follow the carrot put in front of them. Latter day republicans from the 80's when the Federalist Society formed, are like Mitt. Happy with the conception of a corporate entity as having the same rights as humans but oblivious that they have the same flaws. To put it another way, when I coached Little League baseball we were always more worried about the teams that didn't have the best bats, the best uniforms and the most supportive parents. Those kids on the suburban teams knew success as a team and often were lazy players. We worried about the teams that had talent, knew it and were pissed they weren't winning. They could steal your perfect season.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on April 28, 2017, 08:56:57 am
Trump says he thought being President would be easier than his old life (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-100days-idUSKBN17U0CA)

Wow.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 01, 2017, 09:36:55 am
Just a little peek behind the sound bite on all the Trump and RWRE  bull s$it about NATO and what Germany should be doing...

The annual budget, 2017 was about $1.3 billion.  We pay about 24%.  Germany pays about 14%.  Britain 10%.  France about 8%.

So our contribution is somewhere close to $400 million-ish.  Or if we look at the costs Trump is wracking up flying to Florida to pump up and fund his resort, we are on pace to spend about $200 million for his vacations - this year.  Or about half of what it costs us to defend western Europe.

So, which is the best investment?   Well, I submit that I would much rather spend the $400 million a year to have Europe as a buffer for the next Russia/West conflict.  (Sorry, Europe - yes, you are important, but my family and friends will always take precedence!)

Another quick context - while $400 million sounds like a lot...and it is to me!  Remember that Baby Bush/Dick Cheney gave Halliburton over $90 BILLION in no-bid contracts as justification for their ex-CEO Dick Cheney to get some huge bonuses!!  No conflict of interest there at all...

Come to think of it, that makes Trump seem like an amateur hack !   Well, he is, actually...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 01, 2017, 09:45:04 am
Too funny not to post.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14563451_1480543935289913_8477237719050478506_n.jpg?oh=591abc02cad3d62772432125db789bb6&oe=59C09717)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 01, 2017, 04:50:47 pm
Trumplethinskin.  What a buffoon.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/01/media/john-dickerson-donald-trump/index.html


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 01, 2017, 06:42:46 pm
This should be mandatory at kindergarten!  And right now for everyone else!

Maybe we wouldn't have to be discussing "President Trump - The Implications".



https://www.facebook.com/JayShettyIW/videos/1741287762852348/




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 02, 2017, 11:15:23 am
The US Constitution is archaic and gets in the way....

“It’s a very rough system,” Trump said. “It’s an archaic system … It’s really a bad thing for the country.”

Dam the bad luck - he can't just do whatever he wants whenever he wants to!  Well, except when his lackies in Congress let him do it.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/cf7e9730-308f-33e4-a3e9-1a066c4b010d/ss_reince-priebus-admits-trump.html



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 02, 2017, 05:46:09 pm
His understanding of the world is missing so many paragraphs. I was surprised one day to read how accounting for the Egyptian Pharoah's trade was remarkably similar to present day accounting methods. Debits, credits, balance sheets, even to details like bills of lading. Of course I was about 20 years old. trump may call things archaic that he doesn't understand. Or he may simply not realize that the issues and solutions for mankind haven't changed much since we learned to count and write. Our forefathers weren't operating with a clean slate. They understood these issues and successfully designed systems to balance out our human strengths and frailties.

I bet he couldn't pass the same citizenship test our naturalized citizens take.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 02, 2017, 06:16:18 pm
I bet he couldn't pass the same citizenship test our naturalized citizens take.

I think that applies to a lot of citizens born in the USA.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 02, 2017, 06:50:57 pm
True enough, but we don't hold their futures in our hands. He really should have a better grasp. Reports are that almost all those who have been refused entry have nothing more than traffic tickets on their records.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 02, 2017, 06:51:47 pm

"They tapped my wires!" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-obama-wiretapping_us_590726fde4b05c39768097c8)
After Trump brought up the claim unprompted, CBS asked him to elaborate. Instead, the president angrily ended the interview.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 02, 2017, 08:47:15 pm

"They tapped my wires!" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-obama-wiretapping_us_590726fde4b05c39768097c8)
After Trump brought up the claim unprompted, CBS asked him to elaborate. Instead, the president angrily ended the interview.

What a crybaby.  If Obama had acted like this how would the regular right wing spinsters on this forum reacted?  Trump is a classless rube; proof that money doesn't buy class at all.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 02, 2017, 11:38:43 pm
I think that applies to a lot of citizens born in the USA.



I think the suggestion that not being able to pass the same citizenship test as naturalized citizens applies to a lot of people in this forum. Okay, just one. And his boyfriend is iffy.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 07:42:43 am
I think the suggestion that not being able to pass the same citizenship test as naturalized citizens applies to a lot of people in this forum. Okay, just one. And his boyfriend is iffy.


Wow!  The real you coming through...


No matter the real situation of who you are talking about - trying to cast aspersions about being gay.  Yep, that's a Trumpy all right.

So little hope for this state.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 07:44:15 am

His understanding of the world is missing so many paragraphs.



He is not just missing paragraphs - he is missing entire volumes.

What Trump is advocating is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power.  Forcible suppression of opposition (get rid of 1st Amendment).  Control of industry and commerce (for the benefit of the oligarchs).

Look it up....





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 03, 2017, 08:16:07 am

Wow!  The real you coming through...


No matter the real situation of who you are talking about - trying to cast aspersions about being gay.  Yep, that's a Trumpy all right.

So little hope for this state.

Doesn't have a real opinion or argument to make so it's the ad-hominem from him.  I'm used to it.  If he wants to waste his energy on that, I'm all for it.  Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak (or in this case post) and remove all doubt.  I no longer directly reply to any of his childishness.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 08:29:47 am
This tells the whole story of just how far we have slid as a nation and a people.  From the 50's.  What the thought process behind "compassionate conservatism" used to be!  NOT the abortion it has become since misappropriation of the term by Baby Bush and the Hijacked Republican Party!


Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.


Look it up...




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 08:48:45 am
Gotta give them credit - The Supreme Court  FINALLY got one right!!

Now, on to civil forfeiture and make that state crime go away!!


https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/05/02/supreme-court-rejects-guilty-until-proven-innocent-says-states-cannot-keep-money-from-the-innocent/#26558af671f6



And just GUESS who the one dissenter was!!   Go on, I dare you.  Hint; Another sexual predator in a high office....



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 03, 2017, 12:35:37 pm

And just GUESS who the one dissenter was!!   Go on, I dare you.  Hint; Another sexual predator in a high office....

And now for the rest of the story (in my best Paul Harvey impersonation, which really sucks but oh well)...

According to Scotusblog:

Quote
In a provocative (and solo) dissent, Thomas suggested that the fundamental flaw in both the majority and concurring opinions was the assumption that defendants in cases like Nelson have a vested property interest in money they pay pursuant to criminal convictions that are vacated or reversed on appeal or through collateral post-conviction proceedings — an assumption Thomas rather vigorously disputed. Instead, Thomas argued, if such an interest comes from state law, then it must come from the Exoneration Act — which, on its terms, imposes conditions on the return of that money.

The more likely source of a substantive right to return of the funds, Thomas continued, was the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment — which, in Thomas’ long-held view, “confers no substantive rights.” Hence, Thomas’ perhaps surprising bottom line —“Colorado is therefore not required to provide any process at all for the return of that money.”

Fortunately for the petitioners, all of the other participating justices disagreed, even if they only assumed that criminal defendants do indeed have a right to the return of funds they pay pursuant to subsequently invalidated convictions, without explicitly identifying the source of such a right.

So in effect he agreed but disagreed on where the right comes from.

But hey, why let a easy zinger go to waste. Way to play above the fray RIGHT after pointing out guido's "tactics".


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 12:59:39 pm
And now for the rest of the story (in my best Paul Harvey impersonation, which really sucks but oh well)...

According to Scotusblog:

So in effect he agreed but disagreed on where the right comes from.

But hey, why let a easy zinger go to waste. Way to play above the fray RIGHT after pointing out guido's "tactics".


Wow!   Do you read this after you write it??  You are agreeing with Thomas when he says they do NOT have a vested property right in THEIR money - that was wrongfully taken from them by the state.

So, you and Thomas are saying people have no right to their own stuff unless that right comes from some state law, such as Exoneration Act.  Or worse, yet - the 14th Amendment which HE says "confers no substantive rights"  -  TO  YOUR  OWN   STUFF !!   But yeah, I can see that - since our law is derived from old English and European law where you start out with, and as, nothing - except for what the state (King, etc) decides to give you!  That sounds just exactly like the RWRE spewing that I have ranted against for decades.  It's a real shame that pesky US Constitution interferes with all that stuff...according to Trump, Thomas, et al.



14th, section 1, would seem to be pretty clear to all except the RWRE - "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".  There was no due process of law providing conviction, since there was no conviction - therefore grounds to keep the property.  But hey, I am sure someone can twist it around.  And may well do...

Would love to see you right now and the pretzel shape you are maintaining for that one....

As for the source of those rights - I submit they come from the "endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" thing.  From our first declaration of war.  



As for playing above the fray - ok, if you think calling someone out on homophobic comments is getting down in the "fray" - I can live with that!  In fact, will revel in it!  



Thomas himself - well, this is not his worst example of bad behavior, but it is another one, so deserves to be noted for and added to the catalog.   Goes to his general state of mind and poor judgement and thought processes.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 03, 2017, 01:32:07 pm
Nelson was convicted, and so was Madden. But that aside, I guess that would be a compelling argument otherwise. These two were convicted and upon review were discharged. The DA did not press charge again (which they could have done, and potentially convicted at least Madden again). Nelson, turns out was acquitted the second time around.

Due process was served, they lost. But due to a technicality they are freed. Don't pretend they were never offered due process. At what point was the restitution someone else's property. You know the victim, the assault victims.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 03, 2017, 01:48:43 pm
Quote
What if the evidence amply establishes that the defendant injured the victims to whom restitution was paid but the defendant’s conviction is reversed on a ground that would be inapplicable in a civil suit? In that situation, is it true, as the Court proclaims, that the State would have “no interest” in withholding a refund? Would the Court reach that conclusion if state law mandated a refund from the recipients of the restitution? And if the States and the Federal Government are always required to foot the bill themselves, would that risk discourage them from seeking restitution—or at least from providing funds to victims until the conclusion of appellate review?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 02:18:55 pm
Nelson was convicted, and so was Madden. But that aside, I guess that would be a compelling argument otherwise. These two were convicted and upon review were discharged. The DA did not press charge again (which they could have done, and potentially convicted at least Madden again). Nelson, turns out was acquitted the second time around.

Due process was served, they lost. But due to a technicality they are freed. Don't pretend they were never offered due process. At what point was the restitution someone else's property. You know the victim, the assault victims.


The due process - the ENTIRE due process - provided NO conviction.  Intermediate steps along the way are just that - incomplete intermediate steps.  There was no due process providing conviction.  It provided acquittal.  Read the entire sentence - not just the sound bite part you want to think I said...


Wow!  Again!   After all the dust settles - you STILL "say" - at least imply, but for a travesty of justice - they are guilty!  Even though after all the commotion dies down they are found somewhere along the line to be not guilty.  Short diversion:  Your derisive tone about "technicalities" just shows how far removed you are from the reality of how the courts and judicial system can be.  One does not have to be guilty.  One does not even have to be within dozens - even hundreds - of miles of a crime event to be convicted of it.  Conversely, if one is of a "special class" - no act is too egregious to make one have to pay a penalty.




Well, how do you reconcile that whole "guilty no matter what the courts say" attitude with your fan club's adoration and adulation of Oliver North??   Convicted twice!  And if there ever was a case of getting off on technicalities gone horribly wrong - it would be his!   And yet, he is still trotted out of those dark catacombs he dwells in between times and put on the screen at Fake Faux News as a "Great American Hero"...  one of Hannity's favorite terms for the guy.  But that tiny little inconsistency/hypocrisy really wouldn't matter much to the RWRE world now, would it?   Not only did he get all his property back, but thousands of times more in rewards for committing heinous acts that enabled the murder of priests, nuns, civilians.  If only there weren't "technicalities"....








Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 03, 2017, 03:01:00 pm
Trump has failed again!!  Auto sales continue downward trend - lowest since 2009, when Obama was getting his stimulus in place to help the industry!  He isn't protecting American autoworkers from layoffs - on the way soon to a factory near you!

GM alone is getting rid of more than 4,000 this month!!


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/business/auto-sales-decline.html?_r=0



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 03, 2017, 03:54:42 pm
Trump has failed again!!  Auto sales continue downward trend - lowest since 2009, when Obama was getting his stimulus in place to help the industry!  He isn't protecting American autoworkers from layoffs - on the way soon to a factory near you!

GM alone is getting rid of more than 4,000 this month!!


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/business/auto-sales-decline.html?_r=0



I'm going to buy a car just to make a point. But an import though.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 03, 2017, 10:37:19 pm
Is the Johnson Amendment living on borrowed time?

(https://cdn.meme.am/Instance/Preview?imageID=1129911&text0=Heh%20Heh%20&text1=You%20said%20%22Johnson%22)




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 04, 2017, 08:35:07 am
He thrives on the low hanging fruit, so yeah, I suspect "religious freedom" has those elements. During the campaign he told members of the LGBT community that he would protect them. Whoops. Not that non-profits, churches or business paid much attention to the amendment anyway. Kind of like age discrimination. Pretty hard to prove so roundly ignored.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2017, 09:14:03 am
I'm going to buy a car just to make a point. But an import though.


That is 1.  Out of tens of thousands not being sold now...

I'm gonna go find an old beater to buy...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2017, 09:17:27 am

Kind of like age discrimination. Pretty hard to prove so roundly ignored.



Impossible.

And they all know how to get around it anyway - just keep a token old guy or two around that you can point to and say, "See, we got old people..."




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 04, 2017, 02:04:18 pm
The House voted to do something with Obamacare. Not sure what it means, other than this appears to be Trump's response.

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/189/172/029.jpg)



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2017, 02:08:51 pm
The House voted to do something with Obamacare. Not sure what it means, other than this appears to be Trump's response.

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/189/172/029.jpg)




It lets them say to their sycophants that they did something at a town hall.  Then the Senate will tweak it and pass something so THEY can say they did something.  Then, it probably will die because a month long recess happens and they won't be able to resolve the differences - but gives them "pointing" rights to the other side so they can shift the blame to the House/Senate, depending on which they are in.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 04, 2017, 02:28:07 pm

It lets them say to their sycophants that they did something at a town hall.  Then the Senate will tweak it and pass something so THEY can say they did something.  Then, it probably will die because a month long recess happens and they won't be able to resolve the differences - but gives them "pointing" rights to the other side so they can shift the blame to the House/Senate, depending on which they are in.



Several Republican Senators are intonating they won't vote for it.  Lindsay Graham seems to be one of them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 05, 2017, 07:35:35 am
This President can't seem to keep his foot out of his mouth.

After the house passed the initial repeal bill yesterday, during a meeting with the Australian PM, Trump lauded the Australian health care system.

Guess what?  That system is a single-payer/universal system.

Oops.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 05, 2017, 08:19:00 am
Raging right wing lunatic says no evidence of collusion between Russia and Trump.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/04/sen-feinstein-no-evidence-of-russian-collusion-with-trump-campaign-at-this-time/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 05, 2017, 10:07:54 am
Raging right wing lunatic says no evidence of collusion between Russia and Trump.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/04/sen-feinstein-no-evidence-of-russian-collusion-with-trump-campaign-at-this-time/


Ahhh...good to know..!   Much like the very first Congressional hearings on Benghazi that found nothing wrong...!   Nor numbers 2 through 8.  Plus several other smaller committee "studies" on the topic.

Unlike those, this one will find the connection between Trump and Putin if it is a real investigation.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 05, 2017, 10:34:51 am
Trumpcare cuts $880 billion from Medicaid. It replaces subsides for healthcare with tax credits that go to families making up to $150,000 a year. Poor people that can’t afford healthcare won’t get the tax credits because they can’t afford the premiums and have no guarantee of coverage, but wealthier Americans that can afford insurance already get a nice tax credit. This bill also removes requirements that insurers cover pre-existing conditions by allowing states to replace them with useless high risk pools. It also allow insurers to raise insurance rates on older Americans by 500% and allows them to exclude certain illnesses from coverage and brings back the lifetime cap on coverage.  It rolls back Medicaid expansion removing coverage from millions of poor working class Americans.

It has yet to be scored by the CBO, but again this is going to cause 20+ million Americans to lose healthcare coverage and will increase costs to older and sick Americans who do retain coverage. Thousands of people are going to die every year due to this bill. Before Obamacare in 2009 it was estimated that 45,000 Americans died every year due to lack of insurance coverage. Those days are coming back and more because this bill doesn’t just cut back to what was there before Obamacare, it cuts even more than that.

Because in reality, this is a tax cut bill. It cuts taxes by $592 billion for Americans making over $200,000 a year. That’s what this is about.

A tax cut leveraged on the deaths of poor people and older Americans that can’t afford insurance. And even if you have coverage and say you get cancer and the treatments cost more than your lifetime insurance cap? Screw you, go and die. If your kid is born with a birth defect and the cost of surgery is more than your lifetime cap, eh, what’s another dead baby, right?

Republicans had a party, brought in beer to the Rose Garden and celebrated all this. Miller Time Baby!

But her emails, right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 05, 2017, 10:42:17 am
Raging right wing lunatic says no evidence of collusion between Russia and Trump.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/04/sen-feinstein-no-evidence-of-russian-collusion-with-trump-campaign-at-this-time/

"...at this time." When Comey was asked directly by Franken whether this election was stolen by the Russians, his answer was succinct. "Yes". So either this is in fact the dumbest president ever or his group was involved. Unless there is an independent investigation we'll never know.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Townsend on May 05, 2017, 11:21:55 am


If your kid is born with a birth defect and the cost of surgery is more than your lifetime cap, eh, what’s another dead baby, right?


Just as long as the kid's not aborted...this way it's God's plan.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 05, 2017, 11:48:57 am
So personal stories about "pre-existing" conditions.

I had one child that was born with an abnormally shaped head. None of the "fixes" were covered under my "Obamacare"acceptable plan because he was born that way. He was not "injured" and needed rehab.

Same for another child that did not speak for a few years after his birth. If it was rehab it would have been covered. But since he couldn't speak at birth it's just considered something insurance won't pay for.

Fun times.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 05, 2017, 12:06:38 pm
So personal stories about "pre-existing" conditions.

I had one child that was born with an abnormally shaped head. None of the "fixes" were covered under my "Obamacare"acceptable plan because he was born that way. He was not "injured" and needed rehab.

Same for another child that did not speak for a few years after his birth. If it was rehab it would have been covered. But since he couldn't speak at birth it's just considered something insurance won't pay for.

Fun times.

So hey, let's do better than crappy Obamacare, I'm all for that. Obamacare was just the best of what was possible at that time. We need single payer.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 05, 2017, 12:11:44 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_EYa8aVoAAh5yg.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C--3AxMXkAEUTET.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 05, 2017, 12:51:18 pm
Why is Swoke so damned obsessed about the group of people that are already paying the lion share of taxes that provides all the services this country provides still not paying enough. Get over your wealth envy and grow up. Believe it or not, there will always be those that work harder and sacrificed more than you to achieve, and that because of that effort will have nicer stuff than you.

You really want to make a point? Instead of whining, how about you volunteer to pay more in taxes or write a check to the U.S. Treasury to help. Then try "guilting" those with more.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 05, 2017, 01:37:01 pm
Why is Swoke so damned obsessed about the group of people that are already paying the lion share of taxes that provides all the services this country provides still not paying enough. Get over your wealth envy and grow up. Believe it or not, there will always be those that work harder and sacrificed more than you to achieve, and that because of that effort will have nicer stuff than you.

You really want to make a point? Instead of whining, how about you volunteer to pay more in taxes or write a check to the U.S. Treasury to help. Then try "guilting" those with more.

Good points Mr Charity and Giving.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 05, 2017, 05:06:37 pm
We need single payer.

So everyone can get least common denominator care and the rich can get the best with supplemental private insurance.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 05, 2017, 06:39:52 pm
So everyone can get least common denominator care and the rich can get the best with supplemental private insurance.

It seems to work well in literally every other single developed nation, most of which have superior health care.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 05, 2017, 06:54:49 pm
It seems to work well in literally every other single developed nation, most of which have superior health care.

I still say increase the deduction on paychecks for medicare and give EVERYONE Medicare.  I've been advocating this for years now.  Medicare, while not perfect, is still better than the ACA or whatever pile the GOP is fixing to foist on the public.

And if the health insurance industry dies in the process?  So be it.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 05, 2017, 09:54:47 pm
It seems to work well in literally every other single developed nation, most of which have superior health care.

I have no personal experience with other countries' health care. I only know what I have read.  What I have read is that there are often long delays in coverage, lack of coverage for non-life threatening issues and the need for supplemental coverage.  If someone needs supplemental coverage, it is no longer single payer.

Our system, both before and during ACA, leaves a lot to be desired but the panacea of "single payer" ignores the practical implementation of that system too.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 05, 2017, 10:09:28 pm
I have no personal experience with other countries' health care. I only know what I have read.  What I have read is that there are often long delays in coverage, lack of coverage for non-life threatening issues and the need for supplemental coverage.  If someone needs supplemental coverage, it is no longer single payer.

Our system, both before and during ACA, leaves a lot to be desired but the panacea of "single payer" ignores the practical implementation of that system too.

The problem I have (out of both personal and second-hand experience) is that needing a medical procedure should NEVER bankrupt a family.  Before the ACA, that was all too common.  It still happens, but not at the same rate.

The example I cite is the week my mother went into the hospital before she passed away...the week after the funeral I received a statement for that final 6 day stay at St John's.  My mother was disabled, so luckily for her, she had both Medicare, and the deductible was covered by SoonerCare.  The statement amount for 6 days in the ICU where the damned staff at St John couldn't figure out what to do that eventually caused her death (perforated intesting) was over $40,000.  That would bankrupt most people but luckily Medicare/SoonerCare paid for all of it...well, save for a Doctor's consult for 9 dollars that Works and Lentz tried to collect on.  When they called me about it, I told them to try and collect it from her if they wanted.  These collection attorneys are really quite the lot.

Out and out fleecing.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 05, 2017, 10:21:53 pm
I still say increase the deduction on paychecks for medicare and give EVERYONE Medicare.  I've been advocating this for years now.  Medicare, while not perfect, is still better than the ACA or whatever pile the GOP is fixing to foist on the public.

And if the health insurance industry dies in the process?  So be it.

We actually agree on this.  It meets my criteria that everyone pay at least something for the coverage.  The level of payments doesn't need to be completely pay for coverage at lower income levels IMO, but some contribution should be required.  As you approach age 65, you will be inundated with all kinds of plans for supplemental insurance.  Medicare does not guarantee a maximum out of pocket expense.

One scenario I have thought about is kind of the reverse of universal single payer coverage.  it would be that the government would provide universal coverage, without limits, above some limit.  Pick a number... say $1 Million.  Below that number, the present insurance industry would be responsible.  Above that number, "Universal" coverage from a Medicare type tax would pay, without limits, for whatever happened.  That would keep the insurance industry from being on the hook for devastating issues but keep the government from covering the mundane.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 05, 2017, 11:11:46 pm
The problem I have (out of both personal and second-hand experience) is that needing a medical procedure should NEVER bankrupt a family.  Before the ACA, that was all too common.  It still happens, but not at the same rate.

The example I cite is the week my mother went into the hospital before she passed away...the week after the funeral I received a statement for that final 6 day stay at St John's.  My mother was disabled, so luckily for her, she had both Medicare, and the deductible was covered by SoonerCare.  The statement amount for 6 days in the ICU where the damned staff at St John couldn't figure out what to do that eventually caused her death (perforated intesting) was over $40,000.  That would bankrupt most people but luckily Medicare/SoonerCare paid for all of it...well, save for a Doctor's consult for 9 dollars that Works and Lentz tried to collect on.  When they called me about it, I told them to try and collect it from her if they wanted.  These collection attorneys are really quite the lot.

Out and out fleecing.

I have a similar experience.  My mother passed two years ago.  Hillcrest claimed a bill of about $6500.  They said Aetna (not my favorite) claimed dual billing from the Skilled Nursing Center and Hillcrest. This was not the case.  Then Hillcrest said  that since my mom was widowed, the bill could be dismissed if I sent in a death certificate. I did that and a few months later I received a bill from a collection agency.  I am still fighting that.

I have ZERO, NADA, ... sympathy for the health care insurance companies in the USA.  I could be happy if they were ALL run out of business by some kind of universal coverage.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 06, 2017, 12:15:22 am
I have a similar experience.  My mother passed two years ago.  Hillcrest claimed a bill of about $6500.  They said Aetna (not my favorite) claimed dual billing from the Skilled Nursing Center and Hillcrest. This was not the case.  Then Hillcrest said  that since my mom was widowed, the bill could be dismissed if I sent in a death certificate. I did that and a few months later I received a bill from a collection agency.  I am still fighting that.

I have ZERO, NADA, ... sympathy for the health care insurance companies in the USA.  I could be happy if they were ALL run out of business by some kind of universal coverage.

Not trying to pigeon-hole you here RA, but that is a little surprising coming from a known conservative like yourself.  I wish there were more of you, that didn't treat healthcare as a market commodity and treated it as a basic human right...like so many other countries do.

There's hope for you yet.   ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Red Arrow on May 06, 2017, 08:22:59 am
There's hope for you yet.   ;D

I doubt it.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 06, 2017, 10:17:05 pm
Some enlightening information from some bozo with an alleged "preexisting" condition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ZhPidmLBQ


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 06, 2017, 11:17:31 pm
Good points Mr Charity and Giving.

You're welcome, Mr. Freeloader and moocher. And I love this meme of Jesus explaining charity to democrats.

(https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcached-assets.patriotpost.us%2Fimages%2F2016-10-07-7c553491.jpg&key=Nxex9hjbOGUr79AZQzaq7w&w=600&h=231)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 07, 2017, 04:03:13 pm
You're welcome, Mr. Freeloader and moocher. And I love this meme of Jesus explaining charity to democrats.

(https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcached-assets.patriotpost.us%2Fimages%2F2016-10-07-7c553491.jpg&key=Nxex9hjbOGUr79AZQzaq7w&w=600&h=231)


Haven't really read much of what He actually said, huh?   Look for the red letters...



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 07, 2017, 04:39:13 pm
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZhyXKMo7bANBLhdNSkwq3XrDdGBy37YVhmO752gFhhxsk3AQNftBypz2-V_uKDxssnWZRWRnC_vuI_NggbhdXql6ispVa-zK94ki_5ywNK5EG69Hkc4Tto5155UtLfqym4P92-5tDUukTCrj_9r7YvBVJcisC_1WaInY6sAGdJ_SVA1Kc6qeS9uTJ4BTCl2OG6Vlgo1KN0fEf7yY6RylNbDnzApAYlGwKVVfh64fx6WErBg2Vn9xJKsu1VYb6plbJ83DSuPP9Yar9ICZbOpNkkcS-5TxYFn1E8Uzy8tqksmvDROqM_6xo3DQWhuq4marKkVnr0AckJ0ugXhqlEOyVpiu9UEJAFBr7macZibBy96rzSieilEjOM7gDtqN7SsyRu6YAH3H9EQVkIpoF4lcWHbJ-RZg-vMEqQxd7CfTSVmDdjB7b3x1Sai5XN25SAz4pur1fGWebp_sMkqCKhPtwXr8c4xDP7KbcNcvqEDElc2sMDlR9H5aOqtDWe-KRbixWe5-MiJzej_Om1u4MWajzoPDI_YxEkpO75XVHk9Pn1W-7QX171Xoo_zebtG0bRZgGgWy7yj0K1GFj9ixvEu_H0RMTxMAD4vk4zP47MP7Y44t7IkNhQzH4A=w480-h426-no)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 07, 2017, 09:04:58 pm

Haven't really read much of what He actually said, huh?   Look for the red letters...



Sure do. You have some of those "red letters" handy where Jesus said, "Hey, instead of being charitable give your money to Caesar because he knows what to do with it."  

While your at it, look for those red lettered passages where Jesus talked about liking same sex marriage and abortion.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 07:42:50 am
Sure do. You have some of those "red letters" handy where Jesus said, "Hey, instead of being charitable give your money to Caesar because he knows what to do with it."  

While your at it, look for those red lettered passages where Jesus talked about liking same sex marriage and abortion.


Haven't seen those - same sex marriage - exactly which ones are you talking about? 

And Matthew 19:4... kind of a stretch...  As is Mark 10:6.



And do you really not believe that context has a place in the discussion?  Like the facts, unknown in those times, about the actual makeup of the genes of all the various possible combinations of gender?  Not at all just "male and female" in the real world, but hey, the sound bites are easier to remember...




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: BKDotCom on May 08, 2017, 08:06:28 am
And do you really not believe that context has a place in the discussion?  Like the facts, unknown in those times, about the actual makeup of the genes of all the various possible combinations of gender?  Not at all just "male and female" in the real world, but hey, the sound bites are easier to remember...

Context?!
The Bible is the word of God!  I think God knows more about genetics than we ever will.
Either that or it's the writings of primitive misogynistic loonies

I mean clearly:
Quote
Deut 25:11-12

11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12 you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 09:08:00 am
Context?!
The Bible is the word of God!  I think God knows more about genetics than we ever will.
Either that or it's the writings of primitive misogynistic loonies

I mean clearly:


The word of God as interpreted and reported by man...the 'man' part of that being the fallible part.


And if one is gonna go with God knows more about genetics than we ever will, why was that not communicated to man when he was charged with writing the Word?  Or more importantly, who edited it and why?  Especially gotta wonder about the agenda of the people who may have edited the entire set of facts to conveniently fit their sound bite agenda - obviously this is a technique with a long, greatly entrenched tradition in the world.  Like what happened to the Gospels of St Thomas and Mary....?  









Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 08, 2017, 09:21:22 am
I still say increase the deduction on paychecks for medicare and give EVERYONE Medicare.  I've been advocating this for years now.  Medicare, while not perfect, is still better than the ACA or whatever pile the GOP is fixing to foist on the public.

And if the health insurance industry dies in the process?  So be it.

The ACA was a bill that was passed without reading and understanding. Now the GOP has done the same. I watched a Congressman say he didn't read the new GOP bill before he voted for it, but his staff did and if they liked it, he liked it. Are you kidding me??

100% agree with Hoss. Take the money that I am paying for private insurance out of every check and give that to government coverage. I'll have coverage, I won't have a $6000.00 deductible, and in the end I will save money and time due to fighting with insurance jack wagons.

I have had experience in the medical field in other countries and yes some are terrible, but others are not. Yes there can be a wait for an MRI or a procedure of some sort and that is due to the lack of equipment in those countries. We have thousands of MRI systems throughout the USA, Canada has maybe 300 in the entire country. That includes GE, SEIMENS, TOSHIBA and all other venders. So you can see that is one major problem. Same goes with all other medical equipment, many countries just can't handle the patient load due to lack of equipment.

The US doesn't have that issue. If I had a coverage that allowed me to see any doctor, not a Government Doctor, stand alone clinics would still thrive, private hospitals would still thrive and government facilities would get better in the long run.

To me the insurance companies are worse than the government, I would trust government and for me that's a mouth full to spit out.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 08, 2017, 12:04:20 pm
Moon, that is what we all want. Unfortunately, Congress isn't going to go up against huge insurance companies who pay for their election. Nor are the states. Especially the states. The idea of the health insurance companies being replaced by a system whose main job description is health care rather than profit from health insurance seems likely to be only available outside our national boundaries.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 08, 2017, 12:20:47 pm
It could probably be done with like a 5% payroll tax like is done for Medicare/Medicaid today, half paid by employers. If you are self-employed then you carry the full rate.

Have HHS set rates for services and require overall positive outcomes for care. Cut out insurance entirely. Ban medical and drug marketing and advertisements. You can leave doctors and medical companies private and they can compete by being the most efficient for providing care, but the rate they are paid is the same as everyone else in their market. And by the event and severity. Doctor sees a kid with a fever. Depending on severity you are paid one rate no matter how many tests you order.

But at the same time also require that the outcomes are good. Grade providers on things like your rate of kids that once you treat them that then need further treatment isn’t higher than average. If it is, you get a penalty on your reimbursement. If you have better than average outcomes you get a bonus. Pay for the bonuses with the penalty other medical care providers pay.

This would take the cost of insurance out the cost of care, reward good care and remove marketing costs and remove the profit driver for doctors to do things like request and re-request expensive tests to drive revenue for their medical company.

Care remains private and competitive, everyone is covered and the profit driver for providers is efficiency and good outcomes instead of amount of care and number of services provided.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 08, 2017, 03:19:06 pm
Moon, that is what we all want. Unfortunately, Congress isn't going to go up against huge insurance companies who pay for their election. Nor are the states. Especially the states. The idea of the health insurance companies being replaced by a system whose main job description is health care rather than profit from health insurance seems likely to be only available outside our national boundaries.

So many things need to change. The problem is nothing will change no matter whos party is elected. We post hating Dem's and Obama and then we post hating Trump and the Republicans, nothing changes and the can get kicked down the road while we all point fingers at each other.

Campaign finance reform #1. Once that happens things can change. You are right Aquaman, (yes I said that)... until that one thing happens that influences every party, nothing will change.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 08, 2017, 03:37:50 pm
So many things need to change. The problem is nothing will change no matter whos party is elected. We post hating Dem's and Obama and then we post hating Trump and the Republicans, nothing changes and the can get kicked down the road while we all point fingers at each other.

Campaign finance reform #1. Once that happens things can change. You are right Aquaman, (yes I said that)... until that one thing happens that influences every party, nothing will change.

Sadly with Gorsuch being named to the SC, there's little chance of Citizens United being overturned and with that being the law of the land we have a money fueled free for all in politics.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2017, 03:49:45 pm
So many things need to change. The problem is nothing will change no matter whos party is elected. We post hating Dem's and Obama and then we post hating Trump and the Republicans, nothing changes and the can get kicked down the road while we all point fingers at each other.

Campaign finance reform #1. Once that happens things can change. You are right Aquaman, (yes I said that)... until that one thing happens that influences every party, nothing will change.


There were big changes under Obama.  An extra 20 - 25 million of us got insurance.  That isn't exactly "nothing"...

Since that point, any changes needed to make it better have been kicked down the road due to obstructionism by the Hijacked Republican Party, until we have reached this point.  Where they want to kick those millions to the curb again, as they had managed to maintain until Obama.

As for other Dem/Rep contrasts - Oklahoma has been the poster child for really bad things happening under the Hijacked Republican Party.  Starting with education.  Infrastructure.  Public safety.  You are pretty young so may not remember Brad Henry much, but the state did not suffer from this kind of ignorance and stupidstition.

We limit our Highway Patrol officers to 100 miles a day...!!   Really...??  

And even today, they are STILL looking around for things to do to avoid what is really needed to fix the problem.  The latest ignorance this morning is that they want to lock the standard deduction at today's level and not let it continue to be indexed with the Federal standard deduction on your income tax forms.  This is a DIRECT attack on lower income taxpayers while still allowing the richest who don't use the standard deduction to keep on as always.  

The poor get to bear the brunt of it - again!!    Just like with education.  Infrastructure.  Public safety.

Yeah, there is a difference.  Big difference between the Hijacked Republican Party and the Democrats and real Republicans.   No matter what the RWRE sychophants want you to believe.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 08, 2017, 06:59:11 pm

There were big changes under Obama.  An extra 20 - 25 million of us were forced to buyinsurance.  That isn't exactly "nothing"...

FIFY


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 08, 2017, 07:38:23 pm
FIFY

And that's the thing. Of course more people will get insured if the government tells you to buy insurance or get fined. I am just grateful that I got to keep my plan and doctor because I liked them.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 08, 2017, 07:41:57 pm
Government forces us to a lot of things Alfalfa. A lot. Mostly for our own good. Why is this one so different when it attempts to equalize a system that allowed uninsured to have the cost of their poor lifestyles or unlucky genetics be carried on the shoulders of those who did purchase insurance? It seems so...republican and conservative a concept. In fact the concept originated with the Heritage Foundation a conservative think tank. Imagine that.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 08, 2017, 08:51:56 pm
Government forces us to a lot of things Alfalfa. A lot. Mostly for our own good. Why is this one so different when it attempts to equalize a system that allowed uninsured to have the cost of their poor lifestyles or unlucky genetics be carried on the shoulders of those who did purchase insurance? It seems so...republican and conservative a concept. In fact the concept originated with the Heritage Foundation a conservative think tank. Imagine that.

Name another thing the government forces you to buy as a matter of living and breathing from a private for profit company.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TeeDub on May 08, 2017, 09:03:30 pm
Name another thing the government forces you to buy as a matter of living and breathing from a private for profit company.

Toll roads?    Car insurance?    Education?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 08, 2017, 10:38:19 pm
Toll roads?    Car insurance?    Education?

Toll roads? Don't have to use them.

Car Insurance?  Don't have to own/drive car

Education? Not sure what that really means. People pay taxes.

But I do see the point. My issue is that coverage has increased because of force. Obama and others bragging about more people being insured as a result of force is a joke.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 05:49:21 am
Toll roads?    Car insurance?    Education?

Toll roads? I probably only pay $5 in tolls all year, and I probably could have avoided that if I cared to. Not forced on every person.

Car insurance? This is the one trotted out every time. Car insurance is ONLY required if you operate a motor vehicle in a public right of way (a street/road/highway). If I'm the Drummond's and want a fleet of F-150's that will never leave my property, I can drive them around checking cattle on my property as long as they do not cross a state road with absolutely no insurance. That being said, if they wreck it, all the costs are on them.

Education? Not really sure what you mean here unless you mean taxes. We can debate taxes another day, but to my knowledge the state does not force a fee paid to any for-profit (or non-profit in this case) institution for the benefit of education.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 08:29:06 am
FIFY


Nobody forced you or anyone else to do anything about buying health insurance.  Just another RWRE lie.  If you want, you, along with other like minded individuals can continue to be parasitic freeloaders on the medical system and infrastructure that the rest of use support by carrying insurance....  it's all about the 'individual' anyway, isn't it?  Philosophy of, "I got mine, screw the rest..."





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 08:30:34 am
Name another thing the government forces you to buy as a matter of living and breathing from a private for profit company.


Making the case for fixing the system to a single payer!  There may be hope for you after all !!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 08:35:14 am
Toll roads? Don't have to use them.

Car Insurance?  Don't have to own/drive car

Education? Not sure what that really means. People pay taxes.

But I do see the point. My issue is that coverage has increased because of force. Obama and others bragging about more people being insured as a result of force is a joke.


Yeah.  You are forced to pay taxes, so there is that...

It's the fee due to society as a whole (as opposed to going to just a king or something...) for the HUGE benefit of getting to live in a society that, in return for those 'tithes', gives you the opportunity to do what you do to make it so big here!  And it is literally YOUR choice what you do!!  How cool is that??  Don't wanna pay all these fees, taxes, tributes, et al - well, nobody is forcing you to stay!  If ya hate it so bad, go somewhere else.  See how THAT works out for you!!

Specious, false argument about "because of force".






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 09, 2017, 08:40:48 am
Erf you're missing the point or more likely ignoring it. Guido may make his arguments that those things are voluntary but I could spend lots of time listing those that are not voluntary or used by individuals and you are forced to pay for. Its not always a visible cost. You ignore that this idea was a conservative think tank solution, successfully put in practice by a republican governor, that only became distasteful when a black, semi-liberal Democrat implemented it.

My argument holds, but the resulting increased cost Guido mentioned, is hard to pin down. Its not that Congress or the red state governors like madam Failin' made any effort to help the ACA succeed which would have led to more equitable and perhaps lower premiums. It became a "us' vs "them" political game.  I simply didn't see any increase at all in my premiums from Healthchoice. A few insurance companies saw the opportunity to gouge and to be complicit with the congressmen who voted 60 times to overturn the ACA. So, now we get to see whose philosophy the states prefer and what a benevolent dictatorship allows.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 09, 2017, 08:52:29 am
Senate Democrats sent a letter signed by all members to the Republican leadership requesting they do away with the bill passed by the house and instead all sit down and work together to fix what's wrong with Obamacare.

What a wonderful idea, wish I had thought of doing that.

https://www.apnews.com/777fb675d8324f4da3b13b990a8a3d22/Senate-Dems-ask-GOP-to-drop-their-plan-to-repeal-'Obamacare'


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 08:59:17 am
Senate Democrats sent a letter signed by all members to the Republican leadership requesting they do away with the bill passed by the house and instead all sit down and work together to fix what's wrong with Obamacare.

What a wonderful idea, wish I had thought of doing that.


Come on... you are pretty sharp!   You know you DID think of it!!   As did anyone else with a brain in this country!

My first suggestion for helping - get rid of the age 26 limit for kids to be on parents insurance!   That has always been ridiculous...21 is plenty old to get started on being responsible for yourself !  

Side note - one of the guys in the office is stupid rabid anti-Obamacare, but in direct opposition and massive hypocrisy to ALL his principles, got 2 of his kids signed back on to company insurance - one at 24, one at 22.  Even after they had been out of the house for a couple years - one was married!    And since the kids are still supposed to be under the umbrella of "living at home" - there most likely is an element of insurance fraud involved.   Such a moral, upstanding, enlightened example of RWRE philosophy!   And good example to his kids!!    




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 09:24:33 am

Yeah.  You are forced to pay taxes, so there is that...

It's the fee due to society as a whole (as opposed to going to just a king or something...) for the HUGE benefit of getting to live in a society that, in return for those 'tithes', gives you the opportunity to do what you do to make it so big here!  And it is literally YOUR choice what you do!!  How cool is that??  Don't wanna pay all these fees, taxes, tributes, et al - well, nobody is forcing you to stay!  If ya hate it so bad, go somewhere else.  See how THAT works out for you!!

Specious, false argument about "because of force".


Because one does not purchase health insurnce (or any insurance for that matter) does not make them a freeloader. You are being incredibly hyperbolic in this regard.

I will say it again, you can NOT insure a certainty (pre-existing condition). It just doesn't work like that.

And the big gripe was that it is unique in that payments are forced directly to a for-profit entity, where as all the other goodies we get from the gub'ment are indirect. In other words, we pay the government and the government may or may not contract with a for-profit enterprise (they do obviously).


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 09:28:14 am
Erf you're missing the point or more likely ignoring it. Guido may make his arguments that those things are voluntary but I could spend lots of time listing those that are not voluntary or used by individuals and you are forced to pay for. Its not always a visible cost. You ignore that this idea was a conservative think tank solution, successfully put in practice by a republican governor, that only became distasteful when a black, semi-liberal Democrat implemented it.

My argument holds, but the resulting increased cost Guido mentioned, is hard to pin down. Its not that Congress or the red state governors like madam Failin' made any effort to help the ACA succeed which would have led to more equitable and perhaps lower premiums. It became a "us' vs "them" political game.  I simply didn't see any increase at all in my premiums from Healthchoice. A few insurance companies saw the opportunity to gouge and to be complicit with the congressmen who voted 60 times to overturn the ACA. So, now we get to see whose philosophy the states prefer and what a benevolent dictatorship allows.

Not ignoring anything. I understand there are "hidden costs" in all walks of life because of bad payers. But I also understand that there is this fruitless effort to try to marry insurance with the provision of health care that will never work. As I mentioned health insurance is a financial service to mitigate risk. If a person has a preexisting condition, the risk has been eliminated, therefore no sane insurer will want to be on it.

Now, as you have been discussing, if you want to change the way we pay for medical care (or how we subsidize it) that is a whole other discussion. What I would like to see is the divorce of insurance from this discussion because it in the end is just a cash grab disguised as a humanitarian effort.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 09, 2017, 09:37:37 am
Because one does not purchase health insurnce (or any insurance for that matter) does not make them a freeloader. You are being incredibly hyperbolic in this regard.

I will say it again, you can NOT insure a certainty (pre-existing condition). It just doesn't work like that.

As far as your first statement that is your opinion not really backed up with any kind of logic. Yes, the guy who bummed me at QT this morning for bus fare with a backpack and obviously no job is freeloading on our health insurance. When he stumbles in the street and is hit by an insured, he will receive the same EMSA treatment, the same emergency room treatment and the same surgery for a broken leg as the guy who hit him. That is the law. We don't leave uninsured on the streets writhing in agony and drive on by. Our insurance costs and our taxes eventually will reflect those costs. 

Your second statement is also kind of curious. I haven't seen you say that, but is it supposed to be more powerful because you keep repeating it? True Gingrich mentality there. I just don't understand the statement anyway. You can insure anything you want as long as you pay the premium. Losing your good looks, your marathon quality legs, your genetic predisposition to allergies. Anything. So, what exactly is your point?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 09, 2017, 09:40:07 am
Not ignoring anything. I understand there are "hidden costs" in all walks of life because of bad payers. But I also understand that there is this fruitless effort to try to marry insurance with the provision of health care that will never work. As I mentioned health insurance is a financial service to mitigate risk. If a person has a preexisting condition, the risk has been eliminated, therefore no sane insurer will want to be on it.

Now, as you have been discussing, if you want to change the way we pay for medical care (or how we subsidize it) that is a whole other discussion. What I would like to see is the divorce of insurance from this discussion because it in the end is just a cash grab disguised as a humanitarian effort.

I want to see for profit health insurance replaced with a system to provide health care to all citizens as a right. So, I guess we agree on that. Swake had a pretty impressive solution.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 09:40:16 am
Because one does not purchase health insurnce (or any insurance for that matter) does not make them a freeloader. You are being incredibly hyperbolic in this regard.

I will say it again, you can NOT insure a certainty (pre-existing condition). It just doesn't work like that.

And the big gripe was that it is unique in that payments are forced directly to a for-profit entity, where as all the other goodies we get from the gub'ment are indirect. In other words, we pay the government and the government may or may not contract with a for-profit enterprise (they do obviously).


I have NEVER met anyone in my entire life - quite a long time - who has not availed themselves of the medical infrastructure at one time or another.  Have you?  Really??  Answer truthfully!  By accident, disease, misadventure, or whatever path, EVERYONE gets to 'enjoy' the attentions of medical care.

And if they choose NOT to participate when reasonable cost insurance is available, then YES, they are freeloaders!!  By definition.  Making the rest of us who do participate take up the slack for them!  That's probably the source of the term 'slackers' - for people like that!

Unless they choose to NOT go to the hospital, clinic, Dr. at any point during the time when they are avoiding paying their fair share of the cost of said medical infrastructure.  Then and only then would they NOT be freeloading!   Or in the situation where they just bring cash/check/money order/credit card to pay the bill...






Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 09:46:36 am
As far as your first statement that is your opinion not really backed up with any kind of logic. Yes, the guy who bummed me at QT this morning for bus fare with a backpack and obviously no job is freeloading on our health insurance. When he stumbles in the street and is hit by an insured, he will receive the same EMSA treatment, the same emergency room treatment and the same surgery for a broken leg as the guy who hit him. That is the law. We don't leave uninsured on the streets writhing in agony and drive on by. Our insurance costs and our taxes eventually will reflect those costs. 

Your second statement is also kind of curious. I haven't seen you say that, but is it supposed to be more powerful because you keep repeating it? True Gingrich mentality there. I just don't understand the statement anyway. You can insure anything you want as long as you pay the premium. Losing your good looks, your marathon quality legs, your genetic predisposition to allergies. Anything. So, what exactly is your point?

1. A does not necessarily lead to B. That was my only point. Because one does not insure themselves for whatever, does not necessarily mean they are a freeloader.

2. Technically there are no laws against providing insurance for a certainty, but no one will. Try wrecking your car and then buying insurance. That is my point. We have people with preexisting conditions (as tragic as that is I completely understand on a humanitarian level) that are not insurable, because there is no chance the insurer will NOT have to pay. So no sound minded business entity will take on that cost when it is a sure thing. Actuarial tables help insurance companies mitigate the risk that they are buying. Insuring someone with cancer is a no-brainier decision because the cost is guaranteed, you can't mitigate that out.

I'm all for talking about alternative funding mechanisms, but I just think using insurance to "help" people get medical care is a really poor, inefficient way of doing so. Heck, directly subsidize those that need it. We kind of already do in some respects. County health departments offer low cost services if you aren't picky about your doctor. There are other options as well. Here in Bartlesville there is a free Dental Clinic and Green Country Free Medical Clinic. I'm more for that type of "help" than forcing everyone to buy a financial product that really isn't going to help them all that much. I mean we have to subsidize the premium as it is, I would rather just subsidize the medical bill directly.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 09:48:46 am

I have NEVER met anyone in my entire life - quite a long time - who has not availed themselves of the medical infrastructure at one time or another.  Have you?  Really??  Answer truthfully!  By accident, disease, misadventure, or whatever path, EVERYONE gets to 'enjoy' the attentions of medical care.

And if they choose NOT to participate when reasonable cost insurance is available, then YES, they are freeloaders!!  By definition.  Making the rest of us who do participate take up the slack for them!  That's probably the source of the term 'slackers' - for people like that!

Unless they choose to NOT go to the hospital, clinic, Dr. at any point during the time when they are avoiding paying their fair share of the cost of said medical infrastructure.  Then and only then would they NOT be freeloading!   Or in the situation where they just bring cash/check/money order/credit card to pay the bill...


You understand that the mandate is to mitigate the cost of freeloaders (those that cost the system the most) by the non-freeloaders. You get that right?


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 09:56:53 am

We have people with preexisting conditions (as tragic as that is I completely understand on a humanitarian level) that are not insurable, because there is no chance the insurer will NOT have to pay.



THIS is the real world version of 'death panels'.  Nothing to do with Obamacare, of course, but the RWRE must throw up something to deflect attention from reality.

Leads to rationing.  Someone has to decide who lives and dies, don't they?  Triage on a national scale - somewhere along the line, someone says it just isn't 'worth' spending a couple million on this person.  Jump to "Soylent Green" ....


Unless there are 'safety nets'.  You are just making the case over and over for getting rid of commercial insurance...  I recommend a law that says no member of the US Congress, or Executive branch, or the Judicial branch, shall have any health insurance plan better than the lowest paid citizen of the US.   And let's take it one step further - no member of those groups shall have a pension or "golden parachute" plan better than the lowest among us.   That is the egalitarian - fair and balanced - approach.







Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 09:57:57 am
You understand that the mandate is to mitigate the cost of freeloaders (those that cost the system the most) by the non-freeloaders. You get that right?


Exactly.  And that is what is being argued against even as we speak - the desire by RWRE to get rid of that balancing mechanism.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 09:58:42 am
I want to see for profit health insurance replaced with a system to provide health care to all citizens as a right. So, I guess we agree on that. Swake had a pretty impressive solution.

Which I am not opposed to. I completely get that as a part of living in this country we, as a country and effected by our elected leaders, will take on many humanitarian related projects. I am not opposed to every singe one out of hand because of my altruistic bootstrap mentality. That's not my thing (as much as heiron probably thinks it is  ;)) BUT, I will continue to push for the best and most efficient way of doing so. And I just tend to think that an insurance mandate is so far from the most efficient way of doing things. When someone tells me that 20 million more people have health care because of ACA, I correct them and say 20 million more people have insurance. Which even that claim is pretty ridiculous (see below, and remember I'm the one making this smile up). Stealing a term from the late Antonin Scalia, of all the additions (which aren't 20 mil) made, 81% were Medicaid enrollees. They should call it "Obamacaid". I think the point is pretty clear. The insurance mandate is not a good idea. Why you all thought a "republican idea" would be good this time is beyond me. And using that isn't gonna change my mind either. I have not place in my heart for them either. I think the stat above goes to show that swake and others like you are on to the better plan already. Why congressmen can't read the writing on the wall is, well, not that perplexing, but frustrating none the less.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/healthcare/320969-debunking-the-20-million-obamacare-myth


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 09, 2017, 09:59:25 am
You understand that the mandate is to mitigate the cost of freeloaders (those that cost the system the most) by the non-freeloaders. You get that right?

No, the freeloaders are the ones that don't have insurance, that when they have an emergency they use the system in the most costly manner and then the cost goes to everyone else that has insurance in the form of increased rates. The idea is to force the freeloaders into the system. I agree it should be done with taxes and we need to get insurance companies out of healthcare entirely.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 09, 2017, 10:00:40 am
You're arguments just don't sway me Erf. They are freeloaders, we do pay for them. And, Betty Grabell insured her legs which were destined to get old, weak, flabby and ugly. Like mine.

But, the arguments are uneccessary. If we can't figure out a universal health care system that works in tandem with private health care then maybe we could outsource the process to Canada, France, Germany, England (for awhile anyway), or Australia. Sounds like a plan tump would endorse.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 10:01:07 am

THIS is the real world version of 'death panels'.  Nothing to do with Obamacare, of course, but the RWRE must throw up something to deflect attention from reality.

Leads to rationing.  Someone has to decide who lives and dies, don't they?  Triage on a national scale - somewhere along the line, someone says it just isn't 'worth' spending a couple million on this person.  Jump to "Soylent Green" ....


Unless there are 'safety nets'.  You are just making the case over and over for getting rid of commercial insurance...  I recommend a law that says no member of the US Congress, or Executive branch, or the Judicial branch, shall have any health insurance plan better than the lowest paid citizen of the US.   And let's take it one step further - no member of those groups shall have a pension or "golden parachute" plan better than the lowest among us.   That is the egalitarian - fair and balanced - approach.



What is being decided (as I mentioned) is who pays. Not whether someone lives or dies. Again, dial it back a bit. I know you will argue if they can't pay they will die but hold on a bit.

If you wreck your car, try asking an insurance company (that you had not prior contracted with) to pay for it. You need the car. Your livelihood will be damaged without the car. You MUST have a car.

That's all this discussion is about. It's not the insurance companies that are death panels. They are no more than literally you and I are deciding whether people live or die.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 10:02:04 am
No, the freeloaders are the ones that don't have insurance, that when they have an emergency they use the system in the most costly manner and then the cost goes to everyone else that has insurance in the form of increased rates. The idea is to force the freeloaders into the system. I agree it should be done with taxes and we need to get insurance companies out of healthcare entirely.

Even if they did (prior to ACA) who the heck knows if the insurance would even cover whatever it was. There is a problem, insurance is NOT the solution.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 10:02:58 am
You're arguments just don't sway me Erf. They are freeloaders, we do pay for them. And, Betty Grabell insured her legs which were destined to get old, weak, flabby and ugly. Like mine.

But, the arguments are uneccessary. If we can't figure out a universal health care system that works in tandem with private health care then maybe we could outsource the process to Canada, France, Germany, England (for awhile anyway), or Australia. Sounds like a plan tump would endorse.



Singapore should definitely be on the list of good examples to reference.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 10:05:08 am
You're arguments just don't sway me Erf. They are freeloaders, we do pay for them. And, Betty Grabell insured her legs which were destined to get old, weak, flabby and ugly. Like mine.

But, the arguments are uneccessary. If we can't figure out a universal health care system that works in tandem with private health care then maybe we could outsource the process to Canada, France, Germany, England (for awhile anyway), or Australia. Sounds like a plan tump would endorse.

No disagreements there. We should look at other countries to see what they do. Try to figure what would work best.

And Betty Greabell had Lloyd's insure her legs. They will insure anything weird like that, because technically Lloyd's is just a bunch of syndicate's of rich individuals who answer to no one but themselves. You won't get a policy like that from Hartford or Travelers that's for sure.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 09, 2017, 10:07:26 am
Look we all seem to be pointing to the same conclusion, why is there this attack of what I saying that basically justifies solutions similar to what Swake has proposed.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 10:09:26 am
What is being decided (as I mentioned) is who pays. Not whether someone lives or dies. Again, dial it back a bit. I know you will argue if they can't pay they will die but hold on a bit.

If you wreck your car, try asking an insurance company (that you had not prior contracted with) to pay for it. You need the car. Your livelihood will be damaged without the car. You MUST have a car.

That's all this discussion is about. It's not the insurance companies that are death panels. They are no more than literally you and I are deciding whether people live or die.


It has been well documented for many, many years that not having regular, ongoing medical attention as would be more possible/likely with insurance leads to increase rates of adverse outcomes - dying sooner.

What is being decided is that the RWRE is eliminating insurance that 20+ million have now.  Which does lead to reduced ongoing medical care.  Which does lead to dying sooner and having a less healthy life on the way.  And the associated costs being transferred back onto the people who do participate - me, and presumably you.  And those costs being much higher overall than if that ongoing medical care was available along the way.









Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 10:10:20 am
Look we all seem to be pointing to the same conclusion, why is there this attack of what I saying that basically justifies solutions similar to what Swake has proposed.


The same conclusion??  Fix Obamacare rather than trashing it and leaving nothing in it's wake...  is that what you are advocating??


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: AquaMan on May 09, 2017, 10:27:59 am
To be fair, we all have arrived at similar points in the same neighborhood through different paths of thinking. I would support jettisoning insurance based health care by any name. Whether it is replaced with universal healthcare through taxation (which would suffer the same vile arguments being proffered) or some pilot program with many of its elements combined with learning from other nations, is fine with me. But I fear that the only way of accomplishing either is to totally rid ourselves of the insurance domination of the health industry.

Remember how Edmonson got rid of prohibition in Oklahoma? He enforced the laws. Those high status citizens who drove to Missouri to get their booze (and let that state rake in the tax dollars) were suddenly met at the state line by OHP and ticketed. When some legislators were nailed, we suddenly had a state question to eliminate the law. Perhaps when even wealthy, important citizens (who may include legislators) are denied their separate but not equal health care insurance, we could get things changed. Start a petition to eliminate the health insurance business. And of course attach it to legalized marijuana taxed and regulated. That should do it. :D


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 09, 2017, 01:49:58 pm

THIS is the real world version of 'death panels'.  Nothing to do with Obamacare, of course, but the RWRE must throw up something to deflect attention from reality.

Leads to rationing.  Someone has to decide who lives and dies, don't they?  Triage on a national scale - somewhere along the line, someone says it just isn't 'worth' spending a couple million on this person.  Jump to "Soylent Green" ....


Unless there are 'safety nets'.  You are just making the case over and over for getting rid of commercial insurance...  I recommend a law that says no member of the US Congress, or Executive branch, or the Judicial branch, shall have any health insurance plan better than the lowest paid citizen of the US.   And let's take it one step further - no member of those groups shall have a pension or "golden parachute" plan better than the lowest among us.   That is the egalitarian - fair and balanced - approach.








Agreed, and so does she. This passed 429-0

https://mcsally.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/house-unanimously-passes-mcsally-bill-striking-ahca-exemptions-members


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 02:09:24 pm

Agreed, and so does she. This passed 429-0

https://mcsally.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/house-unanimously-passes-mcsally-bill-striking-ahca-exemptions-members


Lol...that is the quintessential definition of a worthless, meaningless, trite, specious, intellectually bankrupt, intelligence insulting bill.  It does absolutely nothing since Congress will never subject themselves to the same issues we have to deal with on a daily basis.  It is a perfect Anatole France moment...

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."


She voted yes to get rid of Obamacare, so we can see where she really comes from - still part of the problem rather than working to solve it.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 09, 2017, 02:56:32 pm

Lol...that is the quintessential definition of a worthless, meaningless, trite, specious, intellectually bankrupt, intelligence insulting bill.  It does absolutely nothing since Congress will never subject themselves to the same issues we have to deal with on a daily basis.  It is a perfect Anatole France moment...

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."


She voted yes to get rid of Obamacare, so we can see where she really comes from - still part of the problem rather than working to solve it.








I think you need to jump down off that high horse for a second and remember one thing, Obamacare is owned by the Dem's and you have to agree it has some major issues. Does that mean that the Republicans are correct in what they are doing? No, not in my opinion BUT... They are doing the exact same thing the Dem's did when they passed this law in the first place. They are just shoving it down our throats just as it was when it was first passed. Don't think for one second that this is only a Republican screw up now just because they are doing the same. No one on either side wants to resolve a dang thing, they don't care either way. All they care about is being able to point fingers, about being re-elected and about who can bash who the most. Who can stir up the most sh&t and who can cause the most media coverage. They want people like you and I to fight instead of working it out because if we fight, they can fight and it just becomes a circle. Why would they want anything different?

Yes she voted to repeal Obamacare, but she also put forth a bill to take out the provision that exempts Congress (portions of McArthur Amendment). The SHOP portion.

Just like everyone else, members of congress and their staff must purchase their coverage through the exchanges.
Unlike most everyone else, they use the small businesses part of the health insurance marketplace and a loophole to retain robust benefits. https://obamacarefacts.com/congress-obamacare/


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2017, 03:56:13 pm

I think you need to jump down off that high horse for a second and remember one thing, Obamacare is owned by the Dem's and you have to agree it has some major issues. Does that mean that the Republicans are correct in what they are doing? No, not in my opinion BUT... They are doing the exact same thing the Dem's did when they passed this law in the first place. They are just shoving it down our throats just as it was when it was first passed. Don't think for one second that this is only a Republican screw up now just because they are doing the same. No one on either side wants to resolve a dang thing, they don't care either way. All they care about is being able to point fingers, about being re-elected and about who can bash who the most. Who can stir up the most sh&t and who can cause the most media coverage. They want people like you and I to fight instead of working it out because if we fight, they can fight and it just becomes a circle. Why would they want anything different?

Yes she voted to repeal Obamacare, but she also put forth a bill to take out the provision that exempts Congress (portions of McArthur Amendment). The SHOP portion.

Just like everyone else, members of congress and their staff must purchase their coverage through the exchanges.
Unlike most everyone else, they use the small businesses part of the health insurance marketplace and a loophole to retain robust benefits. https://obamacarefacts.com/congress-obamacare/


Two wrongs make a right argument...we actually are pretty much in agreement on most of that...

No high horse...just statement of fact about her disingenuous BS.  It does nothing.  Was intended to do nothing.  Certainly didn't fix the big problem with the McArthur amendment - the fact that they left that part in that allows parsing the population into risk pools - all the other waivers that weren't eliminated - like waiver for community health ratings.   A little underwriting trick that will let rates skyrocket on older people while giving younger ones an even bigger break than they had before.  So thereby limiting health coverage for individuals with preexisting conditions. 

The original quote still applies -
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."


Yet this little effort cost how much time, effort, money that could have been used for something real..?  Like making some changes to Obamacare to make it work better.  (It already works well...now make it better.)

Keep hearing all the RWRE nonsense about "major issues" - none of which are anywhere near as major as they want you to believe.  Just getting rid of the 26 year limit to stay on Daddy's insurance would go a long ways toward fixing one of the biggest issues - participation.  So why not do that?



A lot like illegal immigration, there are easy fixes that could be applied but won't be.  They can't get a little piece of the action if they don't stir controversy and come up with big, hairy, expensive, fixes.  And like you said, stir emotional turmoil in the voters to keep them agitated, polarized, pissed at each other instead of the real problem source, and focused on other stuff rather than the real sleight of hand going on in the background.  It's magic.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: guido911 on May 09, 2017, 09:23:00 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_bel5NXsAAqfui.jpg)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Breadburner on May 09, 2017, 10:37:32 pm
Lol...At the left....


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 09, 2017, 11:52:47 pm
Jake makes good points here.  Very disingenuous for sure.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/05/10/trump-fires-james-comey-tapper-opening-sot.cnn

Although I'm sure the sleepover twins will disagree.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 10, 2017, 02:24:20 am
Jake makes good points here.  Very disingenuous for sure.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/05/10/trump-fires-james-comey-tapper-opening-sot.cnn

Although I'm sure the sleepover twins will disagree.
(http://i.imgur.com/NAl3mM3.gif)


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 06:12:30 am
Jake makes good points here.  Very disingenuous for sure.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/05/10/trump-fires-james-comey-tapper-opening-sot.cnn

Although I'm sure the sleepover twins will disagree.

You're right, the timing is admittedly weird. If Trump was a real leader, he would have canned him on January 21st.

That being said, a serious non political discussion me and others have been having at work kind of hearkens to this situation. We've got some dead weight, some managers are more reluctant than others to kick them to the curb. I even recall as my first firing a serious reluctance, but once I "pulled the trigger" my team responded far better than I could have imagined and things were better than they ever had been. Because everyone knew what had to happen.

Is this a situation similar to that? I'm not personally involved in this situation so all I can do is play armchair quarterback. Maybe Comey truly was dead weight. Comey obviously wasn't getting anywhere on the Trump/Russia connection, so honestly no real loss there if your belief is that there is one. As if firing one man at the FBI has any real impact on the result of the investigation. He's widely viewed as the reason Trump is where he is in the first place. He's been way to public and visible and compounded even more by the fact that he keeps disseminating information that just ain't so and has to be corrected in a week. It just happened AGAIN with the comments he made regarding emails between Abedin and Weiner. We're not exactly talking about a model employee here. Hell, pretty sure Lynch was recommending to Obama that he be fired late last year/early this year. Pissing off both sides of the aisle ain't exactly a good plan to keep your job in D.C.

But again, timing seems weird, unless you consider the Yates/Clapper testimony basically saying their was no (evidence of) collusion happening the day before just a coincidence.

And I'm not going to dig up any you tube videos, but I'm sure there are hundreds calling for his head around the time of the bathroom server investigation. Their screeches this morning fall on deaf ears I'm afraid. Or people will have really short memories.

Judicial Watch's comment on the dismissal:

Quote
“This is an important move to restore public confidence in the fair administration of justice at the Federal level. Mr. Comey did not seem to understand some of the laws he was asked to enforce and unfortunately politicized his sensitive position as the FBI director. President Trump took the right step in cleaning house at the FBI.”

All true. There will be shouts of impropriety, but what can't be ignored is that Comey, from an outsider's perspective, really seemed to suck at his job.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Hoss on May 10, 2017, 06:27:27 am


All true. There will be shouts of impropriety, but what can't be ignored is that Comey, from an outsider's perspective, really seemed to suck at his job.

Except for when the President was praising him.

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/862077975797354496

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-praises-james-comey-230542


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 06:44:24 am
Except for when the President was praising him.

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/862077975797354496

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-praises-james-comey-230542

So here you take him at his word? I'm confused because I thought Trump was an imbecile who shouldn't be believed EVER.

Besides this is hardly justification to keep dead weight on staff. As it would apply to my discussion above, because an employee does one thing right (or partly right) doesn't justify their pay.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: Conan71 on May 10, 2017, 06:49:48 am
It looks really bad firing the person who is supposedly leading the investigation into Trump's admin.  IIRC, the POTUS gets to hire the FBI director.

"Now, before I appoint you, you ARE going to stop these circle jerk investigations, right?"

"Yessir, Mr. President!"



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 06:52:05 am
It looks really bad firing the person who is supposedly leading the investigation into Trump's admin.  IIRC, the POTUS gets to hire the FBI director.

"Now, before I appoint you, you ARE going to stop these circle jerk investigations, right?"

"Yessir, Mr. President!"



This I understand.

However, Comey wasn't going to connect the dots anyway, so really what crisis are the D's looking at here.

Even the AP seemed to notice:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRUMP_COMEY_DEMOCRATS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-05-10-04-43-02


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 06:54:47 am
And I'm sure un-shockingly, the WSJ editorial supports the idea.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/comeys-deserved-dismissal-1494380259

My overall thought is, if not now when. He obviously deserved to be let go, but because of all this hype about investigations and what not, there was never going to be a good time for Trump to do so, even though it needed to be done. He was a liability for the department, and the administration, and potentially the country.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 06:57:50 am
Consider this, Comey admits to opening an investigation on Clinton, who at the time was considered a lock for the president. How better to maintain your job than to be conducting an investigation on your boss. I bet, had she been elected, this would have dragged out (especially with Rs in congress) and Clinton would have been in the same boat. Can't fire the person who is leading/the face of the investigation.

Wicked smart that fella. Not very competent, but hey, he was in survival mode.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 07:54:10 am
It's all just really bad theater.   Designed to deflect attention from that fact that this is actually Comey's reward for a job well done.  He can go to work as a law professor.  Or maybe go back to Lockheed Martin.  And just sit back and enjoy life with his $50 Million retirement package from Trump.  The choreography was perhaps a little clumsy before the election, but they realized that it really didn't matter to that base - there just isn't enough intellectual capacity to analyze it beyond the sound bite level.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 10, 2017, 08:55:55 am
This I understand.

However, Comey wasn't going to connect the dots anyway, so really what crisis are the D's looking at here.

Even the AP seemed to notice:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRUMP_COMEY_DEMOCRATS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-05-10-04-43-02

Not going to connect the dots? What gives you that idea?

Look, Comey certainly deserves to be fired over his handling the of the election. He more than anyone cost Clinton the election and even now he can’t keep his facts straight about why he had to disclose the reopening of the email investigation. A good question is did he really understand the investigation when he told congress about it days before the election?

That said, this is obviously about the FBI having moved on from the purely investigative phase of the Russian investigation. There’s now a Grand Jury empaneled and issuing subpoenas. Sh!t is getting real for Trumpster and the baby President panicked, threw a temper tantrum and fired Comey.

The dots are coming together and Trump is freaking out.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 09:12:53 am
Not going to connect the dots? What gives you that idea?



The dots are coming together and Trump is freaking out.



One can only hope...

No doubt John McCain would love to stick it to Trump - I hope he succeeds!!



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 09:15:36 am
I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if they do, but I'm not going to hold my breath either.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 09:21:46 am
I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if they do, but I'm not going to hold my breath either.


If I were McCain and that Orange Bobblehead had said the things about me, after all he had been through in his military career, it would be my life mission to get him and bring him down.  At this point of his career, it would be a crowning achievement of dedicated public service!   Really!!




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 09:30:03 am

If I were McCain and that Orange Bobblehead had said the things about me, after all he had been through in his military career, it would be my life mission to get him and bring him down.  At this point of his career, it would be a crowning achievement of dedicated public service!   Really!!




Sadly, bringing down a President would be viewed as his crowning achievement. Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: TulsaMoon on May 10, 2017, 09:37:52 am
Wait, did anyone actually read the letter sent to Trump by Rod Rosenstein? This has nothing to do with any Russian/Trump investigation, that investigation will still go on!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39866767

Every past AG and DAG agrees that Comey did exactly the opposite of what he should have done. Eric Holder said that the Director's decision "was incorrect. It violated long-standing Justice Department policies and traditions. And it ran counter to guidance that I put in place four years ago laying out the proper way to conduct investigations during an election season." Holder concluded that the Director "broke with these fundamental principles" and "negatively affected public trust in both the Justice Department and the FBI".

Rod Rosenstein was put into office in April at a 94-6 confirmation vote. I think at that moment he was either directed to or took it upon himself to (which is his purgative) to gather the facts about Comey making the call on his own as he did pertaining to the email investigation.

I would be very insulted if I was an FBI agent involved with the Russian/Trump ties investigation. You have claimed that the only person that really mattered has now been fired and the investigation will now be conducted by a Trump appointed director and now will be flawed. The FBI does not revolve around its director and its agents have more integrity!


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 09:51:59 am
Sadly, bringing down a President would be viewed as his crowning achievement. Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.


Right up there with his military service - certainly not a coward like Trump called our 500+ ex-POW's from that era.  Not bad for a guy who wasn't even born in the US....





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 09:58:59 am

I would be very insulted if I was an FBI agent involved with the Russian/Trump ties investigation. You have claimed that the only person that really mattered has now been fired and the investigation will now be conducted by a Trump appointed director and now will be flawed. The FBI does not revolve around its director and its agents have more integrity!



I knew quite a few in Tulsa office in a previous life, and they were all very good people...but this was also during the Hoover era, so that put a cloud over them for a long time.  Hoover was a tin-horn dictator operating with impunity inside a Republic.





Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 10, 2017, 10:31:17 am
Also something most people missed yesterday: The Senate Intelligence Committee asks Treasury to investigate any financial ties between Trump, his team and Russia. 


http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/332609-senate-panel-probing-russia-ties-asks-treasury-for-trump-financial


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 10:58:07 am
Also something most people missed yesterday: The Senate Intelligence Committee asks Treasury to investigate any financial ties between Trump, his team and Russia. 


http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/332609-senate-panel-probing-russia-ties-asks-treasury-for-trump-financial


NPR interviewed Warner yesterday about all the stuff going on...


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 10, 2017, 11:00:30 am
And now this:
Quote
FBI Director James Comey requested additional money and manpower from Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein for the investigation into Russian interference in the presidential election just days prior to his firing, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the situation.

The request, first reported by The New York Times, comes as Trump administration officials claim that Comey's termination is unrelated to the investigation. Comey additionally briefed some members of the Senate Intelligence Committee on the request on Monday.

A spokesperson from the Justice Department explicitly denied that such a request was made, saying it is "100 percent false" and that "it didn't happen."

The spokesperson added that the denial came directly from Rosenstein himself, who authored a letter to Trump Tuesday recommending Comey's dismissal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-comeys-firing/story?id=47318625


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 11:17:50 am
And now this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-comeys-firing/story?id=47318625


Requesting money/people to investigate explains the pretzel shape Rosenstein put himself in with that letter....


Comey was getting too close.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 11:57:15 am

Requesting money/people to investigate explains the pretzel shape Rosenstein put himself in with that letter....


Comey was getting too close.



Yet getting rid of this blundering idiot is going to hinder this investigation?

Look, he was not the guy that was going to complete this thing (if it is doable). This event should be lauded by all sides as I'm pretty sure both sides can find major shortcomings in his performance.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 12:08:48 pm
Yet getting rid of this blundering idiot is going to hinder this investigation?

Look, he was not the guy that was going to complete this thing (if it is doable). This event should be lauded by all sides as I'm pretty sure both sides can find major shortcomings in his performance.


No, it will not.  He should have been gone LONG before now!! 

I fault both Obama and Trump for major fails on this one.




Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 12:32:15 pm

No, it will not.  He should have been gone LONG before now!!  

I fault both Obama and Trump for major fails on this one.




This event in a nutshell is why things are so broken in D.C. You have a guy Comey who basically universally is understood that he is a terrible fit for that role. Upon his firing (and after both sides have been lambasting the guy for incompetence for months on end) the level of shrieking about how terrible it is that a admittedly poor performer is let go when that very result was lobbied for not but days ago by both so many is just...well...I'm at a loss for words.
All that comes to mind all of a sudden is the last scene in A Few Good Men. Particularly the line "I have neither the time or inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way".

Well, President Trump, thank you. It needed to be done. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 10, 2017, 12:37:33 pm
This event in a nutshell is why things are so broken in D.C. You have a guy Comey who basically universally is understood that he is a terrible fit for that role. Upon his firing (and after both sides have been lambasting the guy for incompetence for months on end) the level of shrieking about how terrible it is that a admittedly poor performer is let go when that very result was lobbied for not but days ago by both so many is just...well...I'm at a loss for words.
All that comes to mind all of a sudden is the last scene in A Few Good Men. Particularly the line "I have neither the time or inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way".

Well, President Trump, thank you. It needed to be done. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Achieving a good goal by breaking the law is still illegal. Intent and reason is everything here.


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 10, 2017, 12:42:38 pm
This event in a nutshell is why things are so broken in D.C. You have a guy Comey who basically universally is understood that he is a terrible fit for that role. Upon his firing (and after both sides have been lambasting the guy for incompetence for months on end) the level of shrieking about how terrible it is that a admittedly poor performer is let go when that very result was lobbied for not but days ago by both so many is just...well...I'm at a loss for words.
All that comes to mind all of a sudden is the last scene in A Few Good Men. Particularly the line "I have neither the time or inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way".

Well, President Trump, thank you. It needed to be done. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Except that Trump was gushing repeatedly about how great he was and what a good job he did and blah, blah, blah...

Don't care how Comey got put out the door, but the investigation must continue and complete the information gathering process so the House can get on with impeachment proceedings.



Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: swake on May 10, 2017, 12:47:17 pm
Today when Trump met Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov in the Oval Office only one news organization was allowed in the room. TASS, the Russian State Media Company.

You really can’t make this idiocy up.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2017/05/10/trump-russia-meeting-media-shut-out-238221


Title: Re: President Trump- The Implications
Post by: erfalf on May 10, 2017, 12:52:59 pm
Today when Trump met Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov in the Oval Office only one