The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: davideinstein on September 18, 2016, 10:20:27 pm



Title: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on September 18, 2016, 10:20:27 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/family-north-tulsa-leaders-view-fatal-shooting-video-pastor-expects/article_5b449b2b-d722-563e-b6db-1777a5d2d881.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/family-north-tulsa-leaders-view-fatal-shooting-video-pastor-expects/article_5b449b2b-d722-563e-b6db-1777a5d2d881.html)

This can't happen in our city. Obviously, more details will emerge. But I will live in a city where a black man coming home from a class at TCC doesn't get shot dead when because his car breaks down. It's not negotiable.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 19, 2016, 08:57:52 am
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/family-north-tulsa-leaders-view-fatal-shooting-video-pastor-expects/article_5b449b2b-d722-563e-b6db-1777a5d2d881.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/family-north-tulsa-leaders-view-fatal-shooting-video-pastor-expects/article_5b449b2b-d722-563e-b6db-1777a5d2d881.html)

This can't happen in our city. Obviously, more details will emerge. But I will live in a city where a black man coming home from a class at TCC doesn't get shot dead when because his car breaks down. It's not negotiable.


Well, you better just pack up and get to moving right now...!  I hear Belgium is a nice place!

'Murica...love it or leave it!!



And yeah, you know I am kidding...




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: shavethewhales on September 19, 2016, 12:14:08 pm
This story is nuts. It's the first one of these cases where I've thought a massive demonstration/riot would actually be in order. Other police shooting cases have had various obfuscating issues over whether or not there was any justification, but this is completely different. They literally just gunned this guy down because he was a big black guy and they were scared.

The thing is, I still doubt much will come of it... Maybe they'll get rid of that particular officer, but nothing will really change and it will happen again with someone else.

Also, I'm ashamed at how this is dragging out the racism in this town. So many older white people are jumping to find something wrong with this guy so they can justify his death. They can't handle the truth.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 12:43:02 pm
Live news conference:

http://www.fox23.com/live-breaking


Life tweeting by The Frontier:

https://twitter.com/readfrontier


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 12:56:13 pm
This is going to be bad. Really bad.

The Mayor, the DA, the DOJ Councilor Henderson and the Chief of Police all basically asked people not to riot.

The news conference was professional. Can't comment on the facts because it might become a criminal investigation. Proper deference to the family.  Trust the system etc. Video will be out in ~30 minutes, family has already seen it. But again, the sentiment was strongly emphasized to trust the justice system, that protests will be tolerated, but basically... don't riot.

They also referred to the dead man as the "suspect." Which means the report, when it comes out, will likely to refer to the shooter as "the victim." Which is standard MO on the form but will certainly anger people. The only fact that was confirmed is that the dead man had no weapons on him or in the car.

None of this bodes well for the original official version of the story.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 01:34:17 pm
Video one is out.

Shows a man with his hands up walking away from a female police officer who has a gun drawn on him. It appears he had walked over to her vehicle when she pulled up. Another police officer shows up, quickly followed by 2 more (as well as the helicopter). The man approaches the drivers side of his stalled vehicle, the female officer appears to jump back and shoot him. He falls to the ground, the officers take cover positions and back away... leaving the "suspect" on the ground as another police car pulls into frame.

Not good. No sudden movements. No indication that he was acting erratically or threatening.  It is a somewhat obstructed view, but this isnt going to calm things down.

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Video-Tulsa-Police-officer-shoots-Terence-Crutcher-31411497?vcid=31411497&freewheel=91468&sitesection=tulsa

The video from the copter and from the shooter's dashboard might give more info. But it looks at the moment like the female officer got scared and when she flinched for some unknown reason she shot him.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 19, 2016, 01:42:49 pm
Video one is out.

Shows a man with his hands up walking away from a female police officer who has a gun drawn on him. It appears he had walked over to her vehicle when she pulled up. Another police officer shows up, quickly followed by 2 more (as well as the helicopter). The man approaches the drivers side of his stalled vehicle, the female officer appears to jump back and shoot him. He falls to the ground, the officers take cover positions and back away... leaving the "suspect" on the ground as another police car pulls into frame.

Not good. No sudden movements. No indication that he was acting erratically or threatening.  It is a somewhat obstructed view, but this isnt going to calm things down.

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Video-Tulsa-Police-officer-shoots-Terence-Crutcher-31411497?vcid=31411497&freewheel=91468&sitesection=tulsa

The video from the copter and from the shooter's dashboard might give more info. But it looks at the moment like the female officer got scared and when she flinched for some unknown reason she shot him.

Why did she have her gun drawn in the first place? It was just a disabled car. He's got his hands up and is very calm and not threatening anyone. This is really bad. I hope the DA will bring charges quickly.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 19, 2016, 01:44:50 pm
This doesn't make a difference.  I just wonder why a car stalls and ends up in the middle of both lanes. Odd.

Do we know why they showed up like he was a threat in the first place?  Just a call about a guy with his car in the middle of the road? Police shoot people so people get pissed off and attack the police.  Then when the police go out they are jumpy because officers are getting attacked.  This leads to more people getting accidentally shot which takes us back to the first part. Repeat 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2016, 01:57:09 pm
This is just crazy, it should have been a simple "motorist needs assistance” call.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 19, 2016, 02:31:58 pm

Also, I'm ashamed at how this is dragging out the racism in this town. So many older white people are jumping to find something wrong with this guy so they can justify his death. They can't handle the truth.



Not entirely true - I'm an old white guy - mostly - and as far as I am concerned, after watching those videos, that is cold blooded murder!!  This isn't new, either.  I was also a young white guy and was enraged by TDP incidents in the deep dark past!


You are right about it happening again - the wheel just keeps on turning!  Is it comforting to know that not much has changed in 50+ years?





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 02:37:37 pm
All the videos except the first officer on scene:

https://vimeo.com/183327146
(videos have since been removed)

People are already digging into the guys past, or what they say is this man's past under several variations on the spelling of Terrence/Terence/Terance Crutcher. But neither of the 911 callers reported a tag number so it wouldn't seem like the police would have known who the guy was anyway. Ergo, hard to say the police response was based on any knowledge of his history anyway, for better or for worse (be he a convict or a preacher, it seems they didn't know when he was shot).


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 19, 2016, 02:42:15 pm
All the videos except the first officer on scene:

https://vimeo.com/183327146
(videos have since been removed)

People are already digging into the guys past, or what they say is this man's past under several variations on the spelling of Terrence/Terence/Terance Crutcher. But neither of the 911 callers reported a tag number so it wouldn't seem like the police would have known who the guy was anyway. Ergo, hard to say the police response was based on any knowledge of his history anyway, for better or for worse (be he a convict or a preacher, it seems they didn't know when he was shot).

Yeah, everybody tries to link any police interaction in the past with it being ok to shoot you. Its pretty sickening


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 02:58:39 pm
Not going to help either:

The guy in the helicopter, was very likely the shooter's husband. Not sure if he is the one giving commentary or not, hopefully he wasn't flying that day, but his job is as an observer for the copter. If her husband is the one giving the ill-advised commentary about how the guy looks, well, just another angle to the story.

Article saying they are husband and wife:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/officer-involved-in-crutcher-shooting-got-her-start-in-law/article_5a4ef13f-00ba-5249-b7d2-39a5f7af9b4e.html

Article on David serving as the spotter for the TPD copter:
http://www.newson6.com/story/28487399/news-on-6-views-pursuit-from-tulsa-police-helicopter

Not to belittle the death and aside from who's at fault, but what a really crappy day for David too. Sure, it's bad for his wife no matter what (and obviously beyond tragic for Crutcher's family), but at least it can be said she is the one that made the decision to pull the trigger. Even if David was the one who jumped to some conclusions and said thoughtless things on tape, he didn't pull the trigger and his life is messed up too... another person hurt in this situation. Just no winners here. Sucks all around.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 19, 2016, 03:11:56 pm
Not going to help either:

The guy in the helicopter, was very likely the shooter's husband. Not sure if he is the one giving commentary or not, hopefully he wasn't flying that day, but his job is as an observer for the copter. If her husband is the one giving the ill-advised commentary about how the guy looks, well, just another angle to the story.

Article saying they are husband and wife:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/officer-involved-in-crutcher-shooting-got-her-start-in-law/article_5a4ef13f-00ba-5249-b7d2-39a5f7af9b4e.html

Article on David serving as the spotter for the TPD copter:
http://www.newson6.com/story/28487399/news-on-6-views-pursuit-from-tulsa-police-helicopter

Not to belittle the death and aside from who's at fault, but what a really crappy day for David too. Sure, it's bad for his wife no matter what (and obviously beyond tragic for Crutcher's family), but at least it can be said she is the one that made the decision to pull the trigger. Even if David was the one who jumped to some conclusions and said thoughtless things on tape, he didn't pull the trigger and his life is messed up too... another person hurt in this situation. Just no winners here. Sucks all around.


Yeah, I guess....but shows an attitude that would seem to be all too widespread throughout the department, so maybe the sentiment that lets him have those thoughts and express them so eloquently will shield him emotionally from the worst of it.  So, the level of his life being "messed up" is kinda relative.  He got a very mild indigestion compared to what the other family got/gets.  Plus they got to hear his pronouncements and judgement on their loved one!  Bonus!  It could get worse for him depending on what happens with his wife.  Maybe.


Yep.  I admit it - I am extremely jaded AND cynical !!  That is also called 'experienced'....





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 19, 2016, 03:24:00 pm

Yeah, I guess....but shows an attitude that would seem to be all too widespread throughout the department, so maybe the sentiment that lets him have those thoughts and express them so eloquently will shield him emotionally from the worst of it.  So, the level of his life being "messed up" is kinda relative.  He got a very mild indigestion compared to what the other family got/gets.  Plus they got to hear his pronouncements and judgement on their loved one!  Bonus!  It could get worse for him depending on what happens with his wife.  Maybe.


Yep.  I admit it - I am extremely jaded AND cynical !!  That is also called 'experienced'....





From what I've read, they said he had a criminal record.  Carrying a concealed weapon....in 1996.  Twenty years ago.  He was 20.  Also, they made sure to note he had some traffic violations...some as recent as....wait for it...2005. Really?  Bring up traffic stops from 11 years ago.

SMFH.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ibanez on September 19, 2016, 03:33:10 pm
From what I've read, they said he had a criminal record.  Carrying a concealed weapon....in 1996.  Twenty years ago.  He was 20.  Also, they made sure to note he had some traffic violations...some as recent as....wait for it...2005. Really?  Bring up traffic stops from 11 years ago.

SMFH.

Man, I'm in trouble if they ever find out about my failure to yield in 2011.


Seriously though, days like this are why I avoid Facebook. My wife can't and is always trying to show me the posts the stupid, mouth-breathing, racist trolls roll out at times like this. Personally I'd rather have a hot poker shoved up my chocolate starfish than be exposed to that intellectual diarrhea.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 19, 2016, 04:13:10 pm
Man, I'm in trouble if they ever find out about my failure to yield in 2011.


Seriously though, days like this are why I avoid Facebook. My wife can't and is always trying to show me the posts the stupid, mouth-breathing, racist trolls roll out at times like this. Personally I'd rather have a hot poker shoved up my chocolate starfish than be exposed to that intellectual diarrhea.

The Tulsa World comments are downright depressing.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ibanez on September 19, 2016, 04:18:24 pm
The Tulsa World comments are downright depressing.

(http://i.imgur.com/CNxN6xl.pngl)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2016, 04:50:05 pm
Man, I'm in trouble if they ever find out about my failure to yield in 2011.


Seriously though, days like this are why I avoid Facebook. My wife can't and is always trying to show me the posts the stupid, mouth-breathing, racist trolls roll out at times like this. Personally I'd rather have a hot poker shoved up my chocolate starfish than be exposed to that intellectual diarrhea.

Same with the Eric Harris case, talking about how Robert Bates had done society a favor by taking out a felon.

It’s as if these people don’t have a clue that due process applies to everyone, even people with a criminal past.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 19, 2016, 04:54:52 pm
Same with the Eric Harris case, talking about how Robert Bates had done society a favor by taking out a felon.

It’s as if these people don’t have a clue that due process applies to everyone, even people with a criminal past.

The World said his only criminal record was possession of an illegal gun in the mid 90s and traffic violations more than 10 years ago. Not much of a record and nothing recent.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2016, 05:12:56 pm
The World said his only criminal record was possession of an illegal gun in the mid 90s and traffic violations more than 10 years ago. Not much of a record and nothing recent.

I was actually referring to Harris’ criminal past.  I was of the same impression on Crutcher’s past as you.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ed W on September 19, 2016, 05:41:50 pm
The Tulsa World comments are downright depressing.

Rule of thumb: NEVER read the comments after aNY news story.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 19, 2016, 06:42:15 pm
I think the national media is expecting us to start rioting
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-tulsa-fatal-police-shooting-20160918-snap-story.html
but we've been there, done it... and were better than that.

My instincts lean towards an accidental discharge they just dont want to own up to.



The tragedy isnt so much a man being killed out of negligence, but the fact that every damn one of them conspired to lie about it.
Having all accountability coached out of them has resulted in too many cops these days having their finger on the trigger -- literally and figuratively.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 20, 2016, 07:15:08 am
Any criminal history is irrelevant as the officers didn't know about it when responding. Their reactions were not based on any such knowledge.  No reason to be nervous around a stalled motorist unless you had knowledge that he was likely to cause trouble.


A predominant view appears to be:  he didn't comply with orders, what do you expect?

That's sad for several reasons. First, we have no idea what orders they may be talking about.  Second, the video doesn't support the contention that he presented an imminent threat justifying the use of deadly force. And most troubling, it represents the attitude that you will do what the government tells you at all times or you should rightfully expect to be executed.

Remember when we rebelled with the greatest empire on earth because they raised taxes on tea? We have regressed to the point now that shooting a citizen in need of assistance is acceptable to many people if they fail to obey unspecified government orders. That's ugly, either the person is utterly ignorant of our founding ideals or because it implicitly support the racist narrative that I don't want to believe (not that police are intentionally killing black people, but rather than many people don't take it seriously because it "isn't me or mine").

Give me compliance, or give me death! #smallgovernment #protectandserve

I'm not making a full judgment on this matter, but rather the perception that is being expressed. On the matter at hand, my current theory is that the female officer was scared of dealing with an angry big black man and so she drew her gun (lets face it, big black guys are more intimidating to many people). The other officer sees a smaller female officer confronting a large black man and runs in for backup, not really clear on whats going on.  For whatever reason (I'm assuming because the guy isn't complying with whatever request they are making) the backup officer believes he needs to deploy his taser and does so. This appears to startle the female officer, so she fires one shot and jumps to the side nervously. 

It looks to me like she was nervous/scared, got startled, and accidentally shot the guy to death. That's my best guess. If she intended to execute him she could have done it before more cameras were on the scene.  If she intended to shoot him because she perceived a threat, Officers are trained to fire more than one shot to eliminate the threat. And, generally speaking, when an Officer fires on a suspect they don't shy away as she appears to.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 07:38:41 am
Any criminal history is irrelevant as the officers didn't know about it when responding. Their reactions were not based on any such knowledge.  No reason to be nervous around a stalled motorist unless you had knowledge that he was likely to cause trouble.


A predominant view appears to be:  he didn't comply with orders, what do you expect?

That's sad for several reasons. First, we have no idea what orders they may be talking about.  Second, the video doesn't support the contention that he presented an imminent threat justifying the use of deadly force. And most troubling, it represents the attitude that you will do what the government tells you at all times or you should rightfully expect to be executed.

Remember when we rebelled with the greatest empire on earth because they raised taxes on tea? We have regressed to the point now that shooting a citizen in need of assistance is acceptable to many people if they fail to obey unspecified government orders. That's ugly, either the person is utterly ignorant of our founding ideals or because it implicitly support the racist narrative that I don't want to believe (not that police are intentionally killing black people, but rather than many people don't take it seriously because it "isn't me or mine").

Give me compliance, or give me death! #smallgovernment #protectandserve

I'm not making a full judgment on this matter, but rather the perception that is being expressed. On the matter at hand, my current theory is that the female officer was scared of dealing with an angry big black man and so she drew her gun (lets face it, big black guys are more intimidating to many people). The other officer sees a smaller female officer confronting a large black man and runs in for backup, not really clear on whats going on.  For whatever reason (I'm assuming because the guy isn't complying with whatever request they are making) the backup officer believes he needs to deploy his taser and does so. This appears to startle the female officer, so she fires one shot and jumps to the side nervously.  

It looks to me like she was nervous/scared, got startled, and accidentally shot the guy to death. That's my best guess. If she intended to execute him she could have done it before more cameras were on the scene.  If she intended to shoot him because she perceived a threat, Officers are trained to fire more than one shot to eliminate the threat. And, generally speaking, when an Officer fires on a suspect they don't shy away as she appears to.




It's called a "police state" for a reason.  

Just one of the reasons "1984" should be required reading in schools....


Another one for the list of of troubling things is now the videos have been pulled.  I have no doubt they intend to continue to follow the 'company line' of lies about the situation and the videos just showed a completely different story.  This is much more rotten than the imitation deputy situation under the Glanz regime!!



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 07:47:13 am
Helicopter video still there...found it!


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/graphic-video-tulsa-police-footage-from-fatal-shooting-of-unarmed/article_76ef2a0c-adf6-51c2-a3ae-83794a48b2c5.html



Anyone know how to copy that or post it permanently on another site so can't be erased?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 20, 2016, 08:37:40 am
I'm not making a full judgment on this matter, but rather the perception that is being expressed. On the matter at hand, my current theory is that the female officer was scared of dealing with an angry big black man and so she drew her gun (lets face it, big black guys are more intimidating to many people). The other officer sees a smaller female officer confronting a large black man and runs in for backup, not really clear on whats going on.  For whatever reason (I'm assuming because the guy isn't complying with whatever request they are making) the backup officer believes he needs to deploy his taser and does so. This appears to startle the female officer, so she fires one shot and jumps to the side nervously.  

On one of the audio with dispatch videos that was posted she made some comments before backup arrived.  She said something like "I have a suspect who won't she me his hands".  Or something very similar.  So it was, guy shows up with his hands in his pockets I guess.  Didn't show his hands.  Then she escalated it by drawing a gun.  Then it went from there.  Oddly her dashcam video wasn't part of what we have seen anywhere to show this interaction.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 08:46:15 am
Any criminal history is irrelevant as the officers didn't know about it when responding. Their reactions were not based on any such knowledge.  No reason to be nervous around a stalled motorist unless you had knowledge that he was likely to cause trouble.


A predominant view appears to be:  he didn't comply with orders, what do you expect?

That's sad for several reasons. First, we have no idea what orders they may be talking about.  Second, the video doesn't support the contention that he presented an imminent threat justifying the use of deadly force. And most troubling, it represents the attitude that you will do what the government tells you at all times or you should rightfully expect to be executed.

Remember when we rebelled with the greatest empire on earth because they raised taxes on tea? We have regressed to the point now that shooting a citizen in need of assistance is acceptable to many people if they fail to obey unspecified government orders. That's ugly, either the person is utterly ignorant of our founding ideals or because it implicitly support the racist narrative that I don't want to believe (not that police are intentionally killing black people, but rather than many people don't take it seriously because it "isn't me or mine").

Give me compliance, or give me death! #smallgovernment #protectandserve

I'm not making a full judgment on this matter, but rather the perception that is being expressed. On the matter at hand, my current theory is that the female officer was scared of dealing with an angry big black man and so she drew her gun (lets face it, big black guys are more intimidating to many people). The other officer sees a smaller female officer confronting a large black man and runs in for backup, not really clear on whats going on.  For whatever reason (I'm assuming because the guy isn't complying with whatever request they are making) the backup officer believes he needs to deploy his taser and does so. This appears to startle the female officer, so she fires one shot and jumps to the side nervously. 

It looks to me like she was nervous/scared, got startled, and accidentally shot the guy to death. That's my best guess. If she intended to execute him she could have done it before more cameras were on the scene.  If she intended to shoot him because she perceived a threat, Officers are trained to fire more than one shot to eliminate the threat. And, generally speaking, when an Officer fires on a suspect they don't shy away as she appears to.


Well thought out and well said. I wish more people could/would follow your lead. My very first thought, borne out by a post I made without even knowing the details, was that size, color, time of day, and nervousness had a lot to do with this. Unless you spend a lot of time around or in the northside culture (and not spending that time arresting people), you have a hard time with context.

For instance in South Tulsa you don't see people walking on the street much. They don't even have sidewalks. When a car breaks down AAA picks it up and transports. Bars are nestled in nice little shopping areas.

In North Tulsa they have sidewalks but no one crosses at the corners. Cars break down and are on the side of the road for days until they are picked clean. Bars are visible, so are inebriated people.

Then the fat, white, middle aged guy in your office says something stupid like, "he should have complied". And it leaves you speechless.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 09:03:31 am

It's called a "police state" for a reason.  

Just one of the reasons "1984" should be required reading in schools....


Another one for the list of of troubling things is now the videos have been pulled.  I have no doubt they intend to continue to follow the 'company line' of lies about the situation and the videos just showed a completely different story.  This is much more rotten than the imitation deputy situation under the Glanz regime!!



The videos have not been pulled.  They may have dropped from the Vimeo account linked earlier, but they are available here still:

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Warning-The-complete-unedited-view-of-Terence-Crutchers-death-31413336?playlistId=15318

This is something which stumps me:

-Cop(s) pass stalled car which is basically in the middle of the road, ostensibly someone radios in there is a motorist in need of assistance.

-Officer Shelby shows up and the first of the video we see from the helicopter and Turnbough’s unit is Crutcher with his hands in the air ostensibly being marched back to his vehicle.  Shelby is first shown in the helicopter video coming from the right rear of her unit, gun drawn and pointed at Crutcher.

-On video at least, we see  all this has happened in a mere matter of moments, less than a minute.  But what happened prior to that final minute before Crutcher was shot?  Why was Shelby’s weapon drawn on the passenger side of her vehicle in the first place?  She is first shown at about the right rear quarter panel of her car.  What threat did a motorist of a stalled car represent to the first officer on the scene?  We soon realize she obviously had called for backup...lots of it.  The helicopter video shows Turnbough’s unit and several others not far behind rushing to the scene moments before the shooting.  Others responded from the west fairly quickly.  Why such a big response?  

-In that time-frame why was the police helicopter dispatched to this scene, or had they just left the airpark west of there, they heard radio chatter and realized it was less than a few miles down the road?  The released video from the helicopter starts just south and west of Mohawk Blvd. & Lewis, a few blocks from the scene.

-This being worthy of the of a police air unit is what I still cannot figure out unless it was just cosmic timing which put air support in the area as this unfolded. I’m assuming the helicopters are still based out of the old Downtown Airpark which is less than three miles west of the scene of Crutcher’s shooting.  

-I’m further stumped why none of the responding officers offer any aid to Crutcher as he lays in the ground.  Judging by the blood spatter on his SUV and on his shirt, there likely wasn’t much they could do at that point since Shelby ten-ringed him, but they just left him laying there while it appears officers go around to clear the right side of the vehicle.  Is that policy?  Why were they worried there was someone else in the vehicle who was a threat?

-Perhaps the camera in Shelby’s unit will reveal how this went terribly wrong so quickly.  Clearly there could have been more restraint shown by officers Turnbough and Shelby.  But, what we still don’t know is why was Crutcher perceived as such a serious threat to Shelby in the first place?  What was said, what were his actions which we have not seen nor heard prior to the two videos released thus far?

One scenario which has played through my head is when something goes wrong with Crutcher’s car, out of frustration he gets out of the car and walks off to the side of the road to take a leak and call a friend for help.  He gets wound up and is waiving his arms and talking loudly out of frustration.  Or he could have been doing that anyhow, not on his phone, just venting. The cop pulls up and automatically assumes he’s on PCP or drunk and starts yelling commands which freaks him out. I know I’ve been known to go off when something unfortunate and ill-timed happens to me, maybe not to the level of looking like I was on drugs or drunk, but you get the point.

It is easy to judge someone else’s job when we have not been in the same high stress situation.  I’m not picking sides here, but I’d like to know what happened to create the response of at least four or five back up units PLUS air support within minutes.  This in itself seems highly unusual but I’m not a cop and I’m not certain how these things work.  I am fairly sure a simple DUI stop or mobile meth lab doesn’t warrant this sort of response.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 09:08:19 am
The videos have not been pulled.  They may have dropped from the Vimeo account linked earlier, but they are available here still:

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Warning-The-complete-unedited-view-of-Terence-Crutchers-death-31413336?playlistId=15318




Yeah...I found it a few minutes after that first post.  It was another link that was missing.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 09:10:21 am

Then the fat, white, middle aged guy in your office says something stupid like, "he should have complied". And it leaves you speechless.



I got 4 of them around me.  One even said, 'well, it still isn't Chicago where 500 blacks have been killed by other blacks...'

As if that has anything to do with this, or Tulsa.  There is very little hope for Oklahoma.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 09:25:46 am
The videos have not been pulled.  They may have dropped from the Vimeo account linked earlier, but they are available here still:

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Warning-The-complete-unedited-view-of-Terence-Crutchers-death-31413336?playlistId=15318

This is something which stumps me:

-Cop(s) pass stalled car which is basically in the middle of the road, ostensibly someone radios in there is a motorist in need of assistance.

-Officer Shelby shows up and the first of the video we see from the helicopter and Turnbough’s unit is Crutcher with his hands in the air ostensibly being marched back to his vehicle.  Shelby is first shown in the helicopter video coming from the right rear of her unit, gun drawn and pointed at Crutcher.

-On video at least, we see  all this has happened in a mere matter of moments, less than a minute.  But what happened prior to that final minute before Crutcher was shot?  Why was Shelby’s weapon drawn on the passenger side of her vehicle in the first place?  She is first shown at about the right rear quarter panel of her car.  What threat did a motorist of a stalled car represent to the first officer on the scene?  We soon realize she obviously had called for backup...lots of it.  The helicopter video shows Turnbough’s unit and several others not far behind rushing to the scene moments before the shooting.  Others responded from the west fairly quickly.  Why such a big response?  

-In that time-frame why was the police helicopter dispatched to this scene, or had they just left the airpark west of there, they heard radio chatter and realized it was less than a few miles down the road?  The released video from the helicopter starts just south and west of Mohawk Blvd. & Lewis, a few blocks from the scene.

-This being worthy of the of a police air unit is what I still cannot figure out unless it was just cosmic timing which put air support in the area as this unfolded. I’m assuming the helicopters are still based out of the old Downtown Airpark which is less than three miles west of the scene of Crutcher’s shooting.  

-I’m further stumped why none of the responding officers offer any aid to Crutcher as he lays in the ground.  Judging by the blood spatter on his SUV and on his shirt, there likely wasn’t much they could do at that point since Shelby ten-ringed him, but they just left him laying there while it appears officers go around to clear the right side of the vehicle.  Is that policy?  Why were they worried there was someone else in the vehicle who was a threat?

-Perhaps the camera in Shelby’s unit will reveal how this went terribly wrong so quickly.  Clearly there could have been more restraint shown by officers Turnbough and Shelby.  But, what we still don’t know is why was Crutcher perceived as such a serious threat to Shelby in the first place?  What was said, what were his actions which we have not seen nor heard prior to the two videos released thus far?

One scenario which has played through my head is when something goes wrong with Crutcher’s car, out of frustration he gets out of the car and walks off to the side of the road to take a leak and call a friend for help.  He gets wound up and is waiving his arms and talking loudly out of frustration.  Or he could have been doing that anyhow, not on his phone, just venting. The cop pulls up and automatically assumes he’s on PCP or drunk and starts yelling commands which freaks him out. I know I’ve been known to go off when something unfortunate and ill-timed happens to me, maybe not to the level of looking like I was on drugs or drunk, but you get the point.

It is easy to judge someone else’s job when we have not been in the same high stress situation.  I’m not picking sides here, but I’d like to know what happened to create the response of at least four or five back up units PLUS air support within minutes.  This in itself seems highly unusual but I’m not a cop and I’m not certain how these things work.  I am fairly sure a simple DUI stop or mobile meth lab doesn’t warrant this sort of response.


This shows Chief Jordan saying they will NOT cover anything up at 2:00.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tulsa-police-release-dashcam-video-fatal-shooting-124825150.html


And lots of commentary about what is involved in gathering all the video and compiling (editing!) for release.  Some questions immediately arise....

- Where is the video from Shelby's car?  Especially for the minutes leading up to this!  Would not have taken 10 minutes more than retrieving the videos already released.

- Where is the audio from her car?  Again, especially for the minutes before what they are showing so far.


Your scenario is probably more typical than not - breakdowns like that are frustrating and I see many people go through gyrations after that type of event just as an adrenaline 'release' mechanism.  Ranting and raving about one's stupid car is not cause for the death penalty.


Already, editing and selective visibility has occurred.  I like what he has made happen so far, but Chief Jordan and his department will have to move quicker and get ahead of this better if any credibility is to be maintained/retained.







Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: DTowner on September 20, 2016, 09:35:05 am
I thought these officers were on their way to a call when they came upon Mr. Crutcher and his vehicle in the middle of the street (which would explain why so many officers are on the scene of a disabled vehicle). 

After viewing all the video several times, it seems to me most of the basic facts of the early story released by police are true, but those facts aren’t likely to be sufficient to justify the shooting.  In the helicopter video, it seems clear Mr. Crutcher was not complying with orders.  While he had his hands up, he kept walking back towards his vehicle until he got beside the driver’s side door (I assume they were telling him to stop as the police would not want him moving around, particularly heading back towards his vehicle).  When he gets beside the door, he appears to at least turn towards the door, but I cannot tell if he actually reaches inside the car.  Obviously, that split second and what he did or did not do is critical.

While I cannot tell what happened in the split second he was by the driver’s side door, the fact that one officer deployed a taser instead of his gun is not helpful to the shooter.  The running commentary in the helicopter is also not helpful to the shooter (made even worse if that was her husband), when he says something to the effect that “it looks like this guy is about to be tased,” which indicates Crutcher did not appear to be engaged in threatening behavior.

It is not to excuse any police misconduct, but it is much easier for me to draw this conclusion from the comfort of my chair watching my computer screen.  Contrary to some posters, however, I do not think this issue will get swept under the rug and nothing much will happen.  Rightly or wrongly, in a post-Ferguson environment, I think it is actually more likely that the officer will get charged under these circumstances. 



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 20, 2016, 09:53:25 am

This shows Chief Jordan saying they will NOT cover anything up at 2:00.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tulsa-police-release-dashcam-video-fatal-shooting-124825150.html


And lots of commentary about what is involved in gathering all the video and compiling (editing!) for release.  Some questions immediately arise....

- Where is the video from Shelby's car?  Especially for the minutes leading up to this!  Would not have taken 10 minutes more than retrieving the videos already released.

- Where is the audio from her car?  Again, especially for the minutes before what they are showing so far.


Your scenario is probably more typical than not - breakdowns like that are frustrating and I see many people go through gyrations after that type of event just as an adrenaline 'release' mechanism.  Ranting and raving about one's stupid car is not cause for the death penalty.


Already, editing and selective visibility has occurred.  I like what he has made happen so far, but Chief Jordan and his department will have to move quicker and get ahead of this better if any credibility is to be maintained/retained.







TPD has said her dashcam wasn't on. They still should have audio from her talking to dispatch.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 09:56:40 am
Regardless of how hard the decision was under pressure, with distractions, nerves, helicopter, taser etc., she is accountable for her fast trigger. Keep this in perspective. There were what, 8 armed cops, 4 cars, a helicopter...for a broken down car with no indication of any other offense? And his only transgression is he may have failed to comply with instructions?

That isn't enough to shoot the guy. I drive kids to school. If I get nervous, am distracted by traffic, radio dispatch, rowdy kids, and run over one of them, I am accountable for that mistake no matter how well intentioned and will get sued and probably jailed. Her training failed her. Cut to the chase. Training is the problem.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 10:18:03 am
According to CNN, there were two 911 calls reporting a disabled vehicle blocking the road which certainly opens the door for questioning Crutcher’s mental state.  So at the very least, he’s acting a bit erratic or extremely agitated for one reason or another.  That still doesn’t arise to justifying being shot.  Shelby’s dash cam not being on is an unfortunate development though.  For one it could help better explain what was going on as the officer arrived, but it would also help quell speculation of a cover-up.

As far as demands for swift justice and demands for charges to be filed “today” that’s not exactly how the system works, even when it’s not an officer who is the suspect in a homicide investigation.  Even though it appears Officer Shelby violated Mr. Crutcher’s right to due process, it does not negate her right to it either. (CF feel free to correct here.)

Quote
Sometime after 7:30 p.m. September 16, dispatchers received two 911 calls. The first call came from a woman who said an abandoned vehicle was blocking a road.

"Somebody left their vehicle running in the middle of the street with their doors wide open," the caller said. "The doors are open, the vehicle is still running. It's an SUV. It's in the middle of the street, it's blocking traffic.”

The woman also told the 911 operator that "the guy was running from [the vehicle]" after explaining to her it was going to "blow up.”

Shelby, who is white, was headed to a domestic violence call when she arrived first at the scene of Crutcher's stalled vehicle. Shelby told the dispatcher that "she's not having cooperation" from Crutcher, according to Chief Jordan at a Monday news conference. The police chief declined to offer more information regarding the lack of cooperation Shelby faced.

When Shelby arrived, Crutcher was on the side of the road, away from his vehicle. He then approached Shelby, police said.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 10:28:24 am
We paid for the dash cams. Lots of cops feel they are intrusive and resent the big brother attitude. But they are there for their own defense, not as a weapon. Do your job as trained and you have no need to worry. I have eight cameras and a hard drive on my bus and people can monitor me real time as I drive. Its my only defense against scams and liars. But if I put a coffee cup over the camera....

I also want to say I've spent a lot of time in North Tulsa over the last few years. A broken down car in the middle of the road is neither uncommon or indicative of poor mental state. Its a poor area with small town atmosphere. People take care of each other. Real different culture than south of 71st where likely AAA picks up your car. Just sayin'...


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 20, 2016, 10:34:50 am
We paid for the dash cams. Lots of cops feel they are intrusive and resent the big brother attitude. But they are there for their own defense, not as a weapon. Do your job as trained and you have no need to worry. I have eight cameras and a hard drive on my bus and people can monitor me real time as I drive. Its my only defense against scams and liars. But if I put a coffee cup over the camera....

I also want to say I've spent a lot of time in North Tulsa over the last few years. A broken down car in the middle of the road is neither uncommon or indicative of poor mental state. Its a poor area with small town atmosphere. People take care of each other. Real different culture than south of 71st where likely AAA picks up your car. Just sayin'...

ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 20, 2016, 10:46:02 am
Regardless of how hard the decision was under pressure, with distractions, nerves, helicopter,

The helicopter pilot commented that he was going to back away so the people on the ground could hear, but by then the man was shot.

Something that stuck in my mind from the night of the shooting is police telling reporters at the scene that they wouldnt open the crime scene until daylight because "there are no streetlights."


ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.

Park in the middle of the road and not turn on lights?


CNN is in town today.  No Tay sightings.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 11:05:58 am
ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.

Then that is a failure of the systems use. I can open the loading doors to my bus without the red loading lights activating by turning off the master lights switch and many drivers do that to bypass their student alarm which has to be turned off at the back of the bus. Lazy and unsafe. If these patrol car cameras are only activated with lights or siren on then they have a fundamental problem with protocol. They have set up a by pass for their units to make a stop without being recorded.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 20, 2016, 11:17:23 am
Witnesses indicate that he was having car trouble and thought it might catch on fire or blow up.

That might explain why he ditched it in the middle of the road, just getting the hell out. That also explains why he would be upset, car just shot craps.  Upset people tend to give attitude to anyone they perceive as causing them grief, so the slightest perceived provocation from Shelby could easily elicit a rude response. BOOM - escalation  ("Can I see your hands sit..." Seriously, I'm just trying to get a ride home, my damn car broke down. ::Stands up:: "Hands now!" Draws gun...).  With a gun drawn he starts walking back to his car for God-knows what (ID, insurance, cell phone, a place he "controls"). Fearing a negative outcome, he puts his hands up in the universal symbol of surrender.

Officers were responding to a separate call in the area, as was the helicopter - my understanding is they were diverted when Shelby radioed in that the stalled motorist wasn't being cooperative. The domestic violence dispute can wait, everyone was needed for the rude stalled motorist apparently.

Shelby's dash cam was not on. Officers control when it is on or off. Many departments mandate it be on any all interactions with the public, Tulsa stated they don't have a policy that covered this interaction so the Officer can do as they please. Toggle one = back lights. Toggle 2 = lights and camera. Toggle 3 lights, siren and camera.


And Conan is right. There is no requirement to immediately arrest the officer. She is a citizen of the United States and entitled to the same due process as anyone else. If this was an altercation between two non-police and she claimed self defense, would she be immediately arrested or would they investigate? Given that she is a low flight risk, strong ties to the community, and a nearly non-existent risk of causing additional crime pending the investigation --- there isn't a huge rush. However, if the evidence would support the arrest of John Q. in the same situation, then she shouldn't get special treatment either. And certainly as time drags, pressure will mount to make a decision (and it should).

There is no evidence that she intended to kill this person or did so maliciously. Rather, it appears she was either jumpy, or misjudged, or flat out made a horrid mistake that very well may rise to the level of negligence (that's not to downplay the matter or dismiss the thought that it would have been different with a well dressed white guy).

This is what Bates was convicted of:

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE - ELEMENTS

No person may be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, the death of a human;

Second, the death was unlawful;

Third, the death was caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant(s).




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 11:25:33 am
I think the city is culpable if they don't have a policy for having the cameras on with any interaction. Even if they aren't they should remedy this asap.

Adminstrator: there were several posts that weren't transferred when this subject was combined with the other topic. They seemed relevant.
Can we transfer them here?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 20, 2016, 11:33:00 am

Shelby's dash cam was not on. Officers control when it is on or off. Many departments mandate it be on any all interactions with the public, Tulsa stated they don't have a policy that covered this interaction so the Officer can do as they please. Toggle one = back lights. Toggle 2 = lights and camera. Toggle 3 lights, siren and camera.


Looking back at the videos, the LIGHT BAR IS ON and flashing prior to the arrival of other units, so this is a big discrepancy.

The Panasonic Arbitrator cameras have multiple triggers (airbags, etc) which can be set in software, and lightbar activation is on by default.
They can also be set to record continuously, or motion-activated, which goes thru a lot of memory but these systems can go about 3 days before running out.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 20, 2016, 11:55:42 am
Looking back at the videos, the LIGHT BAR IS ON and flashing prior to the arrival of other units, so this is a big discrepancy.

The Panasonic Arbitrator cameras have multiple triggers (airbags, etc) which can be set in software, and lightbar activation is on by default.
They can also be set to record continuously, or motion-activated, which goes thru a lot of memory but these systems can go about 3 days before running out.

I don't think anything on that video would in some way help Shelby.  I think it would show what lead to the escalation that lead to pulling the gun out.  Also, an idea of the body language of the victim. I think what I've learned from all these shootings is that being black definitely escalates the situation by itself.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 12:00:36 pm
And being large and black provides even more anxiety. That's true for non blacks as well though. "Mmmm. Juicy Fruit..."


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 12:36:53 pm
I don't think anything on that video would in some way help Shelby.  I think it would show what lead to the escalation that lead to pulling the gun out.  Also, an idea of the body language of the victim.

How would showing what led to the escalation not in some way help the officer?

As it is, most people reading the headlines are thinking she cowboyed it and shot him because he’s black and she’s racist.  At least seeing his actions which led to her unholstering her weapon might be of help at least in terms of public opinion and helping to ease racial tension in the community.  Diffusing that tension as well as tension with the TPD would be good things.

As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 20, 2016, 01:09:38 pm
As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.

It looks like TPD will defend the shooting.  One tactic that seems to be emerging is the emphasis on Shelby, who was apparently not only a medical first responder but a "Drug Recognition Expert" now claiming the victim was on PCP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tulsa-fatally-shot-terence-crutcher-pcp-article-1.2799465

There's too many cops involved for TPD to just throw her under the bus.   Even the JAFO was a drug recognition expert:  "Looks like a bad dude, too. Could be on something."


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 01:14:12 pm
It looks like TPD will defend the shooting.  One tactic that seems to be emerging is the emphasis on Shelby, who was apparently not only a medical first responder but a "Drug Recognition Expert" now claiming the victim was on PCP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tulsa-fatally-shot-terence-crutcher-pcp-article-1.2799465

There's too many cops involved for TPD to just throw her under the bus.   Even the JAFO was a drug recognition expert:  "Looks like a bad dude, too. Could be on something."

Tulsa World is now reporting PCP was found in Crutcher’s car.  I would assume the autopsy and toxicology would be very closely monitored.  I’d expect the family will want their own autopsy done.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 20, 2016, 01:24:16 pm
How would showing what led to the escalation not in some way help the officer?

As it is, most people reading the headlines are thinking she cowboyed it and shot him because he’s black and she’s racist.  At least seeing his actions which led to her unholstering her weapon might be of help at least in terms of public opinion and helping to ease racial tension in the community.  Diffusing that tension as well as tension with the TPD would be good things.

As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.

Because a person having their hands in their pockets doesn't justify shooting them when they don't pose a threat. If he posed a big enough threat earlier he would have already been shot.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 20, 2016, 01:31:18 pm
Being on PCP doesn't equate to the death sentence on the spot. Even if he wasn't following orders that doesn't give the police a right to shoot the man if he isn't acting in a threatening manner, which he plainly was not.

What if he was deaf or autistic and unable to follow orders?

And there's PCP on the streets in Tulsa? Seriously?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 20, 2016, 01:32:16 pm
Tulsa World is now reporting PCP was found in Crutcher’s car.  I would assume the autopsy and toxicology would be very closely monitored.  I’d expect the family will want their own autopsy done.

This would make parking/breaking down in the middle of the road make a lot more sense. You still can't shoot people just because they might be on drugs or have a mental illness either.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 02:42:54 pm
This would make parking/breaking down in the middle of the road make a lot more sense. You still can't shoot people just because they might be on drugs or have a mental illness either.

Quote
Because a person having their hands in their pockets doesn't justify shooting them when they don't pose a threat. If he posed a big enough threat earlier he would have already been shot.

Correct, having your hands in your pockets doesn’t justify being shot.  However, if you refuse to show your hands when asked (CF can comment as to probable cause to make you show your hands) an officer can make an assumption you may be trying to conceal drugs or you might have a small weapon in your pocket.  There are quite a few handguns which will fit in a front pocket and conceal nicely.  If he was messed up on angel dust, I can start to see why her hackles went up.

This goes to a training issue: How to react when you are put into a high stress, potentially dangerous situation and her training to recognize certain behavior.  It’s been reported that she’s been trained (and I believe “certified”) to recognize people on drugs and she reported to dispatch he was exhibiting the type of behavior someone on PCP would exhibit.

This does give me some pause:  She was identified in a KOTV story as being a field training officer, meaning she trains rookies in the field.  This particular case worries me about how cops are being trained, as there’s a pattern happening in these cases with unarmed subjects.

I’m going to admit, she has better training than I do to recognize the symptoms of someone on PCP but did that training make her over-react in how the situation might play out if he was, in fact, reaching back into his car when shot?  If you’d had every single worst outcome with someone on PCP pounded into your head in training scenarios you might over-react assuming the worst.  We can talk about what started the confrontation to death.  

Other than a couple of complaints for excessive force which were “were determined to be unfounded", it appears she’s had an exemplary five year career with the PD.

The end result for her is likely one of either excessive force which she can’t walk away from this time or a negligent accidental shooting.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 03:03:14 pm
His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 20, 2016, 03:04:59 pm
His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.



This is why it's called the Thin Blue Line.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 03:24:14 pm
His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.



Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: DTowner on September 20, 2016, 03:30:18 pm
To be accurate, his hands were in the air shortly before he was shot, but he had continued to walk back to the car (the one he thought was going to explode?) and he was by the drivers’ side door turning towards the car.  That alone does not justify shooting, but it puts it in perspective that he was not following the officers’ directives.  The PCP thing would put a new spin on it if it is indeed found in his system.  Alone that would not justify the shooting, but it might explain heightened tensions and if Crutcher made a sudden movement to reach in the car.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 03:58:40 pm
Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.


I look at that and wonder - exactly how would I react to 20,000 volts hitting me in the right side - where the taser appeared to hit.  I'm betting I would kinda cringe and curl to the right and downward - pretty much exactly the motion seen in the heli video and what little can be seen of car video.  Then very soon - a very few seconds, if that much - drops like a rock when he is shot.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 20, 2016, 04:13:14 pm
Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.

But let's be clear, reaching into a car alone is not enough to justify shooting someone.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ibanez on September 20, 2016, 04:28:28 pm
I could be wrong, but to me it doesn't look like the window of the SUV is down. Could be a trick of the lighting, but there appears to be a reflection/glare from the glass in the driver's side window. I mentioned that to my wife last night and just watched both videos again. Just so difficult to tell.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 04:38:56 pm
His lawyer showed a blow up pic of the drivers side window. It is up and blood was found on the outside of the window. Tests for PCP have not been concluded. It may be something else. I sure didn't see any action that would have created fear for her life. Unless he was going to break the window, reach in after being tasered, grab a weapon and face off with the officers. I don't see it.

Edit: interesting that Channel 6 continues to report that a vial of PCP was found in the car, even though it is a vial of clear liquid until tests prove otherwise. Then of course there is the chain of possession issue. Where was it found, or was it placed, tox reports on the victim. Minor stuff to Channel 6 I guess.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 20, 2016, 07:02:31 pm
His lawyer showed a blow up pic of the drivers side window. It is up and blood was found on the outside of the window. Tests for PCP have not been concluded. It may be something else. I sure didn't see any action that would have created fear for her life. Unless he was going to break the window, reach in after being tasered, grab a weapon and face off with the officers. I don't see it.

Edit: interesting that Channel 6 continues to report that a vial of PCP was found in the car, even though it is a vial of clear liquid until tests prove otherwise. Then of course there is the chain of possession issue. Where was it found, or was it placed, tox reports on the victim. Minor stuff to Channel 6 I guess.

The Tulsa DA's office has too many cuddly conflicts of interest to be trusted with any aspect of any officer-invilved shooting.  I would also be leery of them overseeing any forensic evidence.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 20, 2016, 07:36:23 pm
In spite of every effort to make this transparent, this really has a bad smell. No camera footage on the officers car even though the lights were activated. Thought the victim was reaching into the car even though she had closed the doors herself upon arrival after looking around the inside of the car. He had his hands up til he was tasered when his natural physical response got him shot. Later, he is described as acting like he was on some kind of drug, and voila! A vile of clear liquid shows up in the car. Of course, it must be PCP. Whatever. He was never considered innocent.

It seems the guy never had a chance once the police arrived to help.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2016, 07:38:55 pm
But let's be clear, reaching into a car alone is not enough to justify shooting someone.

Not to you or I, no. 

If you are a cop who has encountered someone who has repeatedly refused your commands, and you have no idea if they are armed or have a weapon in their car, it might be a different issue.  Once everything has been examined from the TPD through the DOJ, I guess we will get an “official” ruling on whether or not it was justified.

I’d like to think I’d have the patience to actually see a weapon in someone’s hand before having to make that split second decision.  I’d like to think the taser would have been sufficient to subdue him, but I’ve not been in that situation and hope to never be.

When I sat for my CCL, my instructor was very clear you never point a weapon at another person unless you intend to pull the trigger.  Never pull the trigger unless you intend to kill that person and are willing to face up to the reality and possible consequences of ending another human’s life.  That drove home the serious responsibility which comes along with the right to self defense.  I have no idea if this same message is communicated to LEO’s.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on September 20, 2016, 08:27:38 pm
Hands were were up and so was the window. I went to the protest tonight and if I can make it I'll be back tomorrow. This is murder and unacceptable. Put her in jail.

Once that happens, change the culture in your police department. Serve our community better.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on September 20, 2016, 08:28:38 pm
In spite of every effort to make this transparent, this really has a bad smell. No camera footage on the officers car even though the lights were activated. Thought the victim was reaching into the car even though she had closed the doors herself upon arrival after looking around the inside of the car. He had his hands up til he was tasered when his natural physical response got him shot. Later, he is described as acting like he was on some kind of drug, and voila! A vile of clear liquid shows up in the car. Of course, it must be PCP. Whatever. He was never considered innocent.

It seems the guy never had a chance once the police arrived to help.

It's not transparent. They aren't taking questions from the media and they are controlling the narrative.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 20, 2016, 09:22:16 pm
The PCP is just the latest lie they started with last Friday and continue through today.  Just the same ole 'stuff'....


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 20, 2016, 09:38:51 pm
The PCP is just the latest lie they started with last Friday and continue through today.  Just the same ole 'stuff'....



"That the misinformation given about the window being down, and him putting his hand in the car, reaching for something is misinformation. And that's what the community wants — transparency."

Police video of the shooting does not show what happened when police first made contact with Crutcher, but Crump said witnesses at the scene were “shocked and outraged that he actually was shot” because they thought he had been complying with officers’ orders.

Referencing initial reports indicating that officers thought Crutcher was possibly reaching for a weapon inside his vehicle before he was Tasered and then shot, Attorney David Riggs said officials have now stated that Shelby had already secured the driver's side of his vehicle.

"If that’s true, she knew there was no gun in the car even if the window had been down," Riggs said.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/crutcher-family-attorneys-allege-misinformation-from-police/article_392556ce-f698-54ed-9db9-fa9736493874.html




A while ago the public was outraged at the cold-blooded shooting of a local pastor by OHP troopers.  The OHP spun it by cherry-picking dashcam video showing an angered pastor menacingly sloshing towards the troopers (but not the minutes of taunting that led up to the confrontation).  The lazy media said "Oh, that explains it all" and went on to more important Hollywood divorce stories.

We should expect the same demonizing from TPD and the unions in this case, as well as the same lazy reporting from cute twenty-somethings just learning how to use a video camera.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 21, 2016, 05:59:44 am
Ok, my two cents after finally viewing the videos (been a busy couple of days):

I think it's pretty clear that the officer never should have discharged her weapon, and for that matter maybe she didn't even mean too. I obviously am speculating but it looks accidental to me. Cops can't make those mistakes though. That does not mean the officer did not commit a crime per our laws. That being said, due process people. We don't string people up on a whim anymore.

Easily the most disturbing thing about the whole situation was the apparent indifference to a man bleeding to death on the pavement. I know it was probably only a minute or two but watching the videos it felt like an eternity. There were multiple officers on site, were they concerned about him attacking or something? Again, is this really protocol? Even the comments requesting EMSA seemed pretty lackadaisical.

And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Hearkening back to Conan's words earlier about getting a CCL, and this is something I have been thinking all week. I have been comparing this situation to not wearing a seat belt. If I chose not to wear a seat belt, that doesn't necessarily condemn me to death, nor do I deserve to die, however I have to live (or die) with the consequences that my life may be out of my hands at the moment, that the actions of another could end my life in the blink of an eye.

I'm not blaming the victim, because he WAS unjustly killed, but before the officer shot him, there were a lot of choices made, choices that ultimately had several officers weapons drawn. I don't know what they were but I'm guessing different choices would not have led to weapons being drawn. I have yet to hear of a police officer shooting when their weapon was still holstered. And it would have to be a lot more than he was a big black person. And again, the choices that the police made could have been unwise too. Maybe they are too jumpy. I just don't know. All speculation.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities? Big questions, difficult answers. And sometimes the answers are difficult because they are not what we want them to be (not that it is necessarily the case here, but it can be sometimes).


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 21, 2016, 07:59:47 am


I think it's pretty clear that the officer never should have discharged her weapon, and for that matter maybe she didn't even mean too. I obviously am speculating but it looks accidental to me. Cops can't make those mistakes though. That does not mean the officer did not commit a crime per our laws. That being said, due process people. We don't string people up on a whim anymore.

Easily the most disturbing thing about the whole situation was the apparent indifference to a man bleeding to death on the pavement. I know it was probably only a minute or two but watching the videos it felt like an eternity. There were multiple officers on site, were they concerned about him attacking or something? Again, is this really protocol? Even the comments requesting EMSA seemed pretty lackadaisical.

And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Hearkening back to Conan's words earlier about getting a CCL, and this is something I have been thinking all week. I have been comparing this situation to not wearing a seat belt. If I chose not to wear a seat belt, that doesn't necessarily condemn me to death, nor do I deserve to die, however I have to live (or die) with the consequences that my life may be out of my hands at the moment, that the actions of another could end my life in the blink of an eye.

I'm not blaming the victim, because he WAS unjustly killed, but before the officer shot him, there were a lot of choices made, choices that ultimately had several officers weapons drawn. I don't know what they were but I'm guessing different choices would not have led to weapons being drawn. I have yet to hear of a police officer shooting when their weapon was still holstered. And it would have to be a lot more than he was a big black person. And again, the choices that the police made could have been unwise too. Maybe they are too jumpy. I just don't know. All speculation.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities? Big questions, difficult answers. And sometimes the answers are difficult because they are not what we want them to be (not that it is necessarily the case here, but it can be sometimes).



Paragraph by paragraph...not intending to be dismissive of your comments, but have some response.

First;  Yeah, we do.  Well, maybe not quite a whim, but for way too casual an excuse, people get dead.

Second;  Heinous!!  They just stood around - a long ways away - waiting for him to die, so they could get the Fire Dept to come hose off the road.  Probably talking important stuff like where to go for donuts that time of day...or how to plant some evidence to make him look like a bad guy.

Third;  Yeah, it kinda is a whole other country.  I and friends lived at 36th N near Lewis in the 60's/70's.  Still have family members - north Harvard, near Pine.  One lived in Apache Manor - Cabrini Green in Tulsa.  Even white folks are looked at differently and treated differently in that area (applies to paragraph 6).  As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be....world without end,...Amen,...Amen!

Fourth;  I got nothing....

Fifth;  That paragraph is really kind of passive aggressive offensive - and I don't blame you personally for that, it is a product of a different life experience.  Says he didn't deserve to be shot, but maybe he did something that got him shot that we don't know about...   We have way to many examples of people doing EXACTLY what they are told and still being shot.  There was a guy at a car wash a couple years ago who was getting his drivers license - told the cop it was in the car, then got shot just for opening car door to get it.

And then there was this - autistic man caregiver laying on the ground with arms up, trying to talk to the cops - shot anyway;
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article90905442.html


Sixth;  Tough to say specifically about Tulsa as a stand alone entity - I suspect it is the same - but we do know that overall on a nationwide basis, blacks are treated very differently in virtually every instance of police contact.  This follows through to the court system, incarceration, and parole opportunities.  This is not conjecture or just an opinion - it is a fact.

And even more, we know for another fact that de facto segregation is a huge problem that directly leads, like day follows night, that every aspect of life in America is affected.  From 1972 until 1988, there was 'forced busing' in this country.  One of the obvious, incontrovertible FACTS of that event was that when blacks from less privileged areas were sent to white suburban schools, the gap in performance was cut in half over those years.  Black kids performing at grade level in their home schools were over 40% behind white kids in their home schools.  By 1988, that was cut to 17%.  In one generation.  At the end, the black kids overwhelming returned to substandard schools, with substandard facilities, substandard resources, and the worst teachers.  Gee....no wonder the net effect was a regression back to previous performance levels.  And worse.

Some of the biggest problems we face as a society are directly and verifiably traceable to the huge differences in educational opportunities afforded our kids.  One of the guys I work with lived this just in the last 3 years - he was living in a little gerrymandered Norman, OK school district of mostly lower economic class housing.  His neighborhood was much more upscale, but had been brought into the district to gain a little extra tax money boost.  But the school couldn't accommodate ANY type of special needs student (Asperberger's), so they literally sold their house - bought one across the street - less than 1/2 mile away - just to get into a 'better' school district that did have the resources to work with and help their kid.  Now, consider the HUGE differences that exist between even the "poor area" of Norman, OK, and some true inner city school, like maybe Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta (I have been to a couple of their elementary schools - one of the contractor guys I was working with got shot that day in the elementary school parking lot!  Survived, luckily.  That's a whole other 'adventure' story!)  It's no wonder we have inner city problems.

Yeah, kind of a drift... the problems are not easy and certainly are not being adequately addressed anywhere in the nation.











Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 21, 2016, 09:46:30 am
I’d like to think I’d have the patience to actually see a weapon in someone’s hand before having to make that split second decision.  I’d like to think the taser would have been sufficient to subdue him, but I’ve not been in that situation and hope to never be.

If Mr. Crutcher was caught in your kitchen at 3 AM and you demanded to see his hands, and his response was to walk away with his hands up and then do something that you thought was a threat... well, my expectations for your actions are vastly different.  Even if it turned out you were wrong, you had reasons to believe he was a threat. You had a reason to be jumpy. You aren't a trained professional who has such encounters as a profession. You were forced into that situation in your own home and the result may be that one private citizen kills another.

The Officer is the pinnacle of governmental power over the average citizen. They literally have the power of life and death in their hands day in and day out. In many situation, they are responsible for upholding the Constitution. My expectations are higher, they have to be higher, because we are talking about governmental authority over everyone.

Which is why we have a professional police force that is well paid, well educated, and well trained. That's why there is so much respect and why we give them so much power. That's why we expect them to perform at a high level. It's a tough job that must be performed at a high level. When ti isn't, someones rights are violated and the community loses trust in the government.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 21, 2016, 10:33:43 am

Which is why we have a professional police force that is well paid, well educated, and well trained. That's why there is so much respect and why we give them so much power. That's why we expect them to perform at a high level. It's a tough job that must be performed at a high level. When ti isn't, someones rights are violated and the community loses trust in the government.

When you have a former Tulsa police chief stand with the protestors and lambast the current leadership, that lends cred to the assertion that things have deteriorated.

As for cred, suppressing Shelby's dashcam video to prop up a weak and over-used narrative would only hurt them in the long run.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 21, 2016, 10:38:27 am

And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities?

That was me. I spent much of the last 4 years North of Admiral picking up and dropping off kids to schools and activities. I observed, I interacted, I learned, I enjoyed and I cried. It is more of a small town, especially the farther north and West you go. Its all about family there and most everyone knows each other with just a few degrees of separation. In South Tulsa when your late model car poops out you call AAA, you call a cab or Uber. In north Tulsa you pull your weekly paid for, shiny, barely making it, almost repossessed vehicle  over to the curb if you can and call your cousin/uncle/brother to come give you some help. Its no big deal unless you leave it overnight then it gets stripped or stolen. Same thing really in West Tulsa. I was always simply blown away by how much they accomplish with so little understanding or support from mainstream Tulsa. The charities, churches and government are much more central to their lives than the rest of us imo.

The cops over there seem less uptight than the rest of the city. Part of that is these people are their cousins, uncles, brothers and church deacons or they've been working that area for some time. That is what surprised me about this incident was the nervousness of the cops involved. I wonder if they came from North division.

And, btw, I am an old, hairy, white guy and they mostly treated me with the same respect I offered them. After all, I had their children in my possession! Went to the Central/McClain tailgate party a few weeks ago and was one of maybe a dozen non black attendees. They offered food, conversation and laughter. And when they didn't, it didn't phase me anymore than when I'm ignored at a south Tulsa restaurant.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 21, 2016, 12:16:20 pm
When you have a former Tulsa police chief stand with the protestors and lambast the current leadership, that lends cred to the assertion that things have deteriorated.

As for cred, suppressing Shelby's dashcam video to prop up a weak and over-used narrative would only hurt them in the long run.

What is the news on Shelby's dashcam? Are they still saying it wasn't activated even though the lights were on?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 21, 2016, 12:36:33 pm
What is the news on Shelby's dashcam? Are they still saying it wasn't activated even though the lights were on?

Yes. Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.


https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 21, 2016, 04:17:12 pm
Yes. Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same

Looking at the helicopter video, the light bar is flashing in all directions, which would have activated the camera.
"Direction Lights"  are sequentially-flashing signals to tell traffic which direction to divert to.  That wasnt what the other videos show Shelby using, so you're back to square one.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 21, 2016, 05:36:07 pm
That's what I saw as well. The light bar was on from the helicopter vantage point. To me that destroys a lot of their credibility.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 21, 2016, 06:54:18 pm


Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.


https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same


I don't think that's how the lights/siren toggle system works with the camera.

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).

About 54 seconds after Mr. Crutcher falls to the pavement, Officer Sandra Dunn's vehicle passes in front of Shelby's and to the right of Crutcher's.  Dunn's lights are toggled off (to 0 or possibly 1) for a few seconds, but the video continues.  Obviously, Dunn's camera was recording without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

After time mark 42:18 in Officer Jason Roy's video, I don't see the flash of any overhead lights.  About 20 seconds later, the headlights are turned off, also.  However, the video continues until 48:27, so Roy's camera was recording for at least six minutes without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on September 21, 2016, 08:52:06 pm
That's exactly how the lights/toggle system works with the camera.  All the news tonight is focusing on how poorly Charlotte, NC is dealing with a somewhat similar situation.  I'm proud that Tulsa is, so far, dealing with this in a much more reasonable, thoughtful, community-wide manner.  I would hope that we could refrain from non-fact based conjecture and give our system time to discern exactly what happened before we start assigning the blame to either the victim or police officer.  Tulsa has chosen the route of transparency and avoided the riot-geared police force which seems to have exacerbated the situation in Charlotte.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on September 21, 2016, 10:05:14 pm
That's exactly how the lights/toggle system works with the camera.  All the news tonight is focusing on how poorly Charlotte, NC is dealing with a somewhat similar situation.  I'm proud that Tulsa is, so far, dealing with this in a much more reasonable, thoughtful, community-wide manner.  I would hope that we could refrain from non-fact based conjecture and give our system time to discern exactly what happened before we start assigning the blame to either the victim or police officer.  Tulsa has chosen the route of transparency and avoided the riot-geared police force which seems to have exacerbated the situation in Charlotte.

As a North Carolina native living in Tulsa, it's become a sad week. Heartbreaking.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 22, 2016, 04:08:02 am
I don't think that's how the lights/siren toggle system works with the camera.

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).

About 54 seconds after Mr. Crutcher is shot, Officer Dunn's vehicle passes in front of Shelby's and to the right of Crutcher's.  Dunn's lights are toggled off (to 0 or possibly 1) for a few seconds, but the video continues.  Obviously, Dunn's camera was recording without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

After time mark 42:18 in Officer Roy's video, I don't see the flash of any overhead lights.  About 20 seconds later, the headlights are turned off, also.  However, the video continues until 48:27, so Roy's camera was recording for at least six minutes without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).



If the system works like the one on my bus, it runs for 45 minutes after the ignition is turned off. That keeps the operator from trying to just turn off the cameras during a crisis. Of course there are always those who try to disable the system but that in itself is an indictment.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Weatherdemon on September 22, 2016, 07:35:24 am
Here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, if you don't like or trust the police, don't put yourself in a position to have to deal with them.
If you do have to deal with them, be polite and follow their instructions.

That said,
Regardless of what has come out on Crutcher's past, the PCP in his vehicle, and the fact that he certainly appears to not be following the officers instructions, there was absolutely zero reason for him to have been shot. None. There was zero indication of imminent threat. The type of person he was absolutely doesn't matter in this situation as TPD did not even know his name when he was shot.

When she was alone with him and he wasn't following commands, I understand her drawing her firearm due to the size difference between him and her. Once backup arrived, she should have holstered it and pulled out the taser.

Fortunately for Tulsa, We the People is an organization truly committed to going about things correctly and not fanning the flames with the, "this person was a good citizen, father, brother, child, and church goer, who was thinking about improving his life" or the "police are racists rants" but are working peacefully with a police chief who also seems to truly be willing to be open about his department and doing things the right way.



I believe all police departments should have cameras in every car and ideally on every officers chest to protect them and the citizens they work for and those tapes should be released in their entirety(from the time the officers get the call until the call is over) after an incident such as this.

I also think this officer should be arrested and charged now as there is no evidence presented thus far to indicate the shooting was justified at any level.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 22, 2016, 08:25:39 am
I've seen a few people on PCP or Meth. Never saw one so docile and slow moving. I also have not heard the toxicology test on either the vial or the victim. Perhaps when people say we shouldn't jump to conclusions (media for sure) they ought to consider that.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 22, 2016, 08:58:00 am
Okay, don't take the following as an argument for one side or the other, just stating what Shelby's attorney has said publicly:

Shelby was called to a domestic disturbance complaint (fairly high priority) and left the Gilcrease division on 36th Street North. When approaching Lewis, she sees a man standing in the westbound land staring at the pavement. She considered that fairly odd, the man sees and looks at her and returns to the side of the roadway. She thought about getting out, but the domestic disturbance call was higher priority. After passing through the signal, about 150 feet beyond, she sees the vehicle straddling the center line. She stopped and approached the vehicle, clearing the vehicle from the driver's side, looking for anyone that may have been in distress. She noticed the vehicle was running at this point. She then went to move to the passenger side when she sees Mr. Crutcher approaching her. She was not startled by this, just thinking this was the owner. Asked him if this was his vehicle, and that they needed to get it moved out of the street. He then mumbled something unintelligible under his breath (the only time Mr. Crutcher said anything according to Ms. Shelby). Then he looked at her unusually (she called it a thousand yard stare). She quickly starts to assume he is impaired in some form or another (she is a drug recognition expert). One of his next moves is putting his left hand in his pocket. Off. Shelby then asks him to explain to her what is going on and to please keep his hands out of his pockets. No response. He is asked several more times if this is his vehicle. No responses. He then walks back toward her car, turns toward her and again puts his hand in his pocket. He then walks over to the side of the roadway and then putts his hands up, with no instruction from Off. Shelby. He then moves toward the back of the police car and again raises his hands in the air with no instruction. At this point backup is requested and gun is drawn about this time. Apparently she drew her weapon due to the number of times he had reached for his pocket. His pants were loose enough fitting that she couldn't be certain as to the existence of a weapon. And since Mr. Crutcher had been unresponsive to all of her requests, she had nothing else really to go on (obviously hindsight is 20/20 and he had no gun). Upon arrival several other officers also drew their weapons, having trust in their squad mate that she had assessed the situation appropriately. This is roughly when the video evidence catches up.

They are claiming that a quick move was made by Mr. Crutcher that was perceived to be a move toward the vehicle to retrieve something.

Now my commentary:

There is dispute as to whether or not the window was open or not. I don't know that it really changes the right or wrong actions the officer took. It sounds like she did not truly clear the vehicle for weapons and such prior to Mr. Crutcher arriving, so she could truly be assuming that a weapon may have been present.

It seems to me that there is disinformation being given by all parties involved. The fact that the video from Officer Shelby's vehicle is not available seems quit suspect. Crutcher's team seems to want people to believe his car was just broken down, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Back to my seatbelt anology. Mr. Crutcher appears to have been inebriated. That decision may have ultimately cost him his life, whether justified or not. You cannot leave life up to chance. Not that there is no chance of death for a completely sober Mr. Crutcher, but I imagine the odds of survival are significantly better. It sounds like it's amazing his car didn't end up in a ditch somewhere. Again, not blaming him for being shot, because I still think at this point it seems like an ill fated decision of the officer to take the shot in the first place. Just blaming him for what appears to be really poor decisions, that honestly could have effected other innocent people, and sort of did in the end. Officer Shelby was called by his actions, not the other way around. She did not hunt him down. The altercation was 100% due to his actions.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 09:37:32 am
Here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, if you don't like or trust the police, don't put yourself in a position to have to deal with them.
If you do have to deal with them, be polite and follow their instructions.

That said,
Regardless of what has come out on Crutcher's past, the PCP in his vehicle, and the fact that he certainly appears to not be following the officers instructions, there was absolutely zero reason for him to have been shot. None. There was zero indication of imminent threat. The type of person he was absolutely doesn't matter in this situation as TPD did not even know his name when he was shot.

When she was alone with him and he wasn't following commands, I understand her drawing her firearm due to the size difference between him and her. Once backup arrived, she should have holstered it and pulled out the taser.

Fortunately for Tulsa, We the People is an organization truly committed to going about things correctly and not fanning the flames with the, "this person was a good citizen, father, brother, child, and church goer, who was thinking about improving his life" or the "police are racists rants" but are working peacefully with a police chief who also seems to truly be willing to be open about his department and doing things the right way.



I believe all police departments should have cameras in every car and ideally on every officers chest to protect them and the citizens they work for and those tapes should be released in their entirety(from the time the officers get the call until the call is over) after an incident such as this.

I also think this officer should be arrested and charged now as there is no evidence presented thus far to indicate the shooting was justified at any level.


Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 22, 2016, 09:44:34 am

Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....



See my commentary above. You may be wrong on several points (broken car not really broken, unlikely she checked the car thoroughly). And it appears by multiple accounts that he was as high as a kite on something (be it PCP or whatever).


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Weatherdemon on September 22, 2016, 09:46:58 am

Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....



Did you even read my entire statement or just gloss over it?
As I said, if you do have to deal with them, follow the officers directives... which he obviously did not do.

The reports were an abandoned or stalled vehicle blocking traffic... but the vehicle was running so I'm not sure if there was actually a problem with the vehicle or what.

And again, as I said, I still have not seen a single reason for him to have been shot. His actions that I have seen barely justify a taser.






Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 22, 2016, 10:36:21 am

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).


You only have to watch the released videos to confirm Shelby's top light bar was on.
That potentially represents a minute and a half of dashcam that could explain a lot.

(http://videos.videopress.com/DrTGVWzX/tulsa-helicopter-1_dvd.original.jpg)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 22, 2016, 10:49:04 am
So are we all deciding to refute every single thing that Shelby has said happened (that I posted above)?

Honestly, if every single thing she said was true, I can still see that she made a gigantic mistake by discharging her weapon.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 22, 2016, 11:10:34 am
Yes, but the details and how they are released are quite important to the credibility of the officers and the department. If they insist that there was no footage because the lights were off, well, that's damaging. It means either there is another explanation, which they should provide, or they don't want to release that footage because it was damaging and there was an effort to hide or destroy it. Conspiracy.

I would discount most or all of what the attorneys say until there is an official summary. Then the lawyers can argue what is fact.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 11:49:16 am
Did you even read my entire statement or just gloss over it?
As I said, if you do have to deal with them, follow the officers directives... which he obviously did not do.

The reports were an abandoned or stalled vehicle blocking traffic... but the vehicle was running so I'm not sure if there was actually a problem with the vehicle or what.

And again, as I said, I still have not seen a single reason for him to have been shot. His actions that I have seen barely justify a taser.







Yeah.  Then I specifically said I was commenting on the first statement - about avoiding contact with police.  Many times happens through nothing done by an individual.



As for the broken car - there are many failure modes that can occur, rendering a vehicle broken while the engine runs happily on.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: godboko71 on September 22, 2016, 11:57:50 am
Sad situation.

Few things:
A car running/being on doesn't mean it will move. or isn't "broken down." Transmission goes out car can run until it runs out of gas as one example.

As for the size difference being why she pulled her gun, why not pull her taser (maybe she didn't have one if not that needs to change.) That would easily level the playing field so to speak.

Based on what we have seen of the victim, if he is high it isn't on PCP, too docile.

Anyway unless some other video comes to light to show something drastic, deadly force should have never been a thought let alone the outcome.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 12:03:53 pm


That's exactly how the lights/toggle system works with the camera.  All the news tonight is focusing on how poorly Charlotte, NC is dealing with a somewhat similar situation.  I'm proud that Tulsa is, so far, dealing with this in a much more reasonable, thoughtful, community-wide manner.  I would hope that we could refrain from non-fact based conjecture and give our system time to discern exactly what happened before we start assigning the blame to either the victim or police officer.  Tulsa has chosen the route of transparency and avoided the riot-geared police force which seems to have exacerbated the situation in Charlotte.


There's no non-fact based conjecture on my part.  I'm observing the videos.

When I look at the helicopter video, the lights on the top of Betty Shelby's vehicle appear to be flashing.  That would be toggle position 2 or 3, as explained in cannon_fodder's post.  If the lights are toggled on to 2 or 3, which they appear to be in the helicopter video, then the camera is supposed to be on, according to cannon_fodders 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 toggle description.

When I look at the helicopter video, I can see that the lights on Officer Dunn's vehicle are toggled off for a few seconds.  According to cannon_fodder's description, that means Dunn's lights were toggled to 0 or 1 for a few seconds.  However, when I see Dunn's dashcam video, it appears to continue recording when the lights are toggled to 0 or 1.  According to cannon_fodder's toggle description, the camera is off when lights are toggled to 0 or 1.

When I look at Officer Roy's video, the dashcam records for about six minutes after the lights are toggled to 0 or 1.  According to cannon_fodder's toggle description, the camera is off when the lights are toggled to 0 or 1.

So, after looking at the videos and comparing what I saw to cannon_fodder's toggle explanation, I doubt if the lights/siren toggle works with dashcam exactly as he described.

If cannon_fodder's 0-1-2-3 toggle description is exactly how the lights/siren/camera work, then why wasn't Officer Shelby's camera activated when her lights were toggled on 2 or 3?
 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: sauerkraut on September 22, 2016, 12:04:05 pm
The big issue here is why did Crutcher stop his car in the middle of the street like that with the engine running and walk away, to any cop that comes along it looks like someone left a stolen car there and fled on foot, or it could also be a set-up to ambush any cop that stops for it. It's likely Crutcher was high PCP or meth and did not know what was going on or what he was doing so he stopped his car in the middle of the street and got out and walked around. The cop said he was un-responsive & would not say much and he kept putting his hand in his pockets and he was warned 3 times not to do that. He could have a gun in there and shoot right thru the pocket. The whole thing was one big grim situation. If Crutcher parked on the side of the road it never would of attracted attention. Not really sure what to make of this, have to wait for lab reports I guess.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 22, 2016, 01:08:24 pm

So, after looking at the videos and comparing what I saw to cannon_fodder's toggle explanation, I doubt if the lights/siren toggle works with dashcam exactly as he described.


The lighting toggle isnt an on/off switch for the dashcam, but rather a trigger for a software sequence.
Panasonic Arbitrator cameras are continuously recording, like a DVR.  By settings in software, you can specify what conditions trigger a recording state that can be flagged for downloading.  

Airbag deployment in an accident, for example, captures not only the accident but the 30 seconds prior to that accident.  Same with lightbars.
When you look at Turnbough's dashcam, the "recording" starts 30 seconds before he hits his lights.  You can even see his door slam as he enters his vehicle.


Even if Shelby's dashcam wasnt triggered by the light bar, it still recorded to the buffer, which could have been forensically extracted at a later time.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 01:42:22 pm
So are we all deciding to refute every single thing that Shelby has said happened (that I posted above)?

Honestly, if every single thing she said was true, I can still see that she made a gigantic mistake by discharging her weapon.

Yeah, I read your commentary...good summary of what she said.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the basics are true - the steps of the 'walk through'.  The details are what matters though, and there are enough of those that have been obvious lies that it kinda casts a shadow over the entire commentary right now.  We shall see over the next days/weeks to see where it all goes.  It is not good, no matter what.






Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 02:19:55 pm
The big issue here is why did Crutcher stop his car in the middle of the street like that with the engine running and walk away, to any cop that comes along it looks like someone left a stolen car there and fled on foot, or it could also be a set-up to ambush any cop that stops for it. It's likely Crutcher was high PCP or meth and did not know what was going on or what he was doing so he stopped his car in the middle of the street and got out and walked around. The cop said he was un-responsive & would not say much and he kept putting his hand in his pockets and he was warned 3 times not to do that. He could have a gun in there and shoot right thru the pocket. The whole thing was one big grim situation. If Crutcher parked on the side of the road it never would of attracted attention. Not really sure what to make of this, have to wait for lab reports I guess.


Oh, geez....maybe he stopped because the car was having trouble...??   If you had ever driven a car, you might understand that the engine can actually run, while the car is inoperable or at least dangerous to drive. 

Yeah....likely that he just attended class and got high right then.... could be. 




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 22, 2016, 02:36:39 pm

Oh, geez....maybe he stopped because the car was having trouble...??   If you had ever driven a car, you might understand that the engine can actually run, while the car is inoperable or at least dangerous to drive. 

Yeah....likely that he just attended class and got high right then.... could be. 




It would be more believable if he hadn't left and told others it was going to explode.

FYI

District attorney calls for first-degree manslaughter charge against officer in fatal shooting of Terence Crutcher

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/district-attorney-calls-for-first-degree-manslaughter-charge-against-officer/article_e5cc9bee-6300-5f1f-bc0b-e45dd7fd356f.html


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 22, 2016, 02:38:41 pm

Oh, geez....maybe he stopped because the car was having trouble...??   If you had ever driven a car, you might understand that the engine can actually run, while the car is inoperable or at least dangerous to drive. 

Yeah....likely that he just attended class and got high right then.... could be. 


And, as well, a car can continue to run after you hallucinate and see a dragon in the passenger seat and flee the vehicle claiming it's going to blow.

I mean it does happen.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 22, 2016, 02:43:24 pm
It would be more believable if he hadn't left and told others it was going to explode.

FYI

District attorney calls for first-degree manslaughter charge against officer in fatal shooting of Terence Crutcher

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/district-attorney-calls-for-first-degree-manslaughter-charge-against-officer/article_e5cc9bee-6300-5f1f-bc0b-e45dd7fd356f.html

That charge seems to properly fit what happened.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 02:45:25 pm

Even if Shelby's dashcam wasn't triggered by the light bar, it still recorded to the buffer, which could have been forensically extracted at a later time.


That seems reasonable to me.

What doesn't make sense is why Officer Shelby's camera wasn't activated.  Her light bar appeared to be flashing, which means the lights were toggled to 2 or 3, as explained in cannon_fodder's description.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 22, 2016, 02:46:23 pm
That charge seems to properly fit what happened.

I'd say that's a reasonable amount of time to bring charges.  Let's hope Al $harpton butts out and doesn't stir up trouble now.  I give the city and the DA high marks for making this investigation a priority and filing charges they feel is appropriate after investigation.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 02:51:56 pm
And, as well, a car can continue to run after you hallucinate and see a dragon in the passenger seat and flee the vehicle claiming it's going to blow.

I mean it does happen.


I have had it happen to me a couple of times.  Turns out it wasn't real....

Seems like they said he was talking about it catching fire... coulda smelled a gas leak.  Or anti-freeze.  Or who knows what....?  Overheated brakes.  Transmission 'burning' out.  Electrical short in dash.  Dropped cigarette on carpet or upholstery.

Several possible sources of fire in a car...haven't covered half of them....






Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 02:56:19 pm

I wonder why Officer Shelby's dashcam seemingly wasn't recording.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 22, 2016, 02:56:38 pm

I have had it happen to me a couple of times.  Turns out it wasn't real....

Seems like they said he was talking about it catching fire... coulda smelled a gas leak.  Or anti-freeze.  Or who knows what....?  Overheated brakes.  Transmission 'burning' out.  Electrical short in dash.  Dropped cigarette on carpet or upholstery.

Several possible sources of fire in a car...haven't covered half of them....


Well, one 911 caller said she thought he was "smoking something".  I'm not making that up.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2016, 03:08:54 pm
Well, one 911 caller said she thought he was "smoking something".  I'm not making that up.


Cigarette is smoking... caller coulda been smelling something from a problem with car, too.  Looking forward to more information.

Maybe the tox report will talk about nicotine as well as any other recreational chemicals that may or may not have been present.  One can only hope.  My bet is still that having just left class, he probably didn't have time to get stoned by that point, no matter what he may have done in the rest of his private life.  Possible, but it would be a push to get to that point....





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 03:12:09 pm

There wasn't a class for him to leave.

The videos are from around 7:45pm.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 22, 2016, 03:13:54 pm
That seems reasonable to me.

What doesn't make sense is why Officer Shelby's camera wasn't activated.  Her light bar appeared to be flashing, which means the lights were toggled to 2 or 3, as explained in cannon_fodder's description.



Technology fails. In twenty years in the tech field I have had stuff fail out of the box, after first use, and then again had things run constantly for years and not fail. Equipment in police cars tend to have short life spans because it's in a harsh enviroment. Now if it's proven that it was tampered with that's a different issue.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: godboko71 on September 22, 2016, 03:18:12 pm
There wasn't a class for him to leave.

The videos are from around 7:45pm.

https://banweb.tulsacc.edu/PROD/bwckschd.p_disp_dyn_sched

Select fall, then select after 430 and fri sat and sun evening and tell me there was no class for him to be leaving. Sorry I would screenshot but there are far to many classes for that.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 03:59:50 pm


https://banweb.tulsacc.edu/PROD/bwckschd.p_disp_dyn_sched

Select fall, then select after 430 and fri sat and sun evening and tell me there was no class for him to be leaving. Sorry I would screenshot but there are far to many classes for that.
 

Yes, there are many scheduled classes, but Mr. Crutcher's particular class was cancelled.  He didn't get the message beforehand according to TCC spokeswoman Nicole Burgin. 

A 5:30pm cancelled class would have "begun" and "ended" around 5:30pm.  The police dispatch about Mr. Crutcher's vehicle was around 7:36pm, or about two hours after Mr. Crutcher reportedly showed up for his cancelled class.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 04:09:08 pm


Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1.


Says who?  The helicopter video indicates #2 or #3, not #1.


Technology fails. In twenty years in the tech field I have had stuff fail out of the box, after first use, and then again had things run constantly for years and not fail. Equipment in police cars tend to have short life spans because it's in a harsh enviroment. Now if it's proven that it was tampered with that's a different issue.


I agree that technology fails sometimes.  What I'm doubting is the statement that Officer Shelby parked her vehicle and toggled on to #1.  That doesn't jibe with the helicopter video.  It was toggled to #2 or #3 in the helicopter video, or so it seems to me and to others on this forum.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 22, 2016, 04:19:25 pm
Says who?  The helicopter video indicates #2 or #3, not #1.

I agree that technology fails sometimes.  What I'm doubting is the statement that Officer Shelby parked her vehicle and toggled on to #1.  That doesn't vibe with the helicopter video.  It was toggled to #2 or #3 in the helicopter video, or so it seems to me and others on the this forum.



Not disagreeing with that, just commenting on a possible equipment failure. We had similar technology failures in police cars at the municipality I worked for from the computer, radios, and cameras.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 22, 2016, 04:32:07 pm
I've been warned by 3 separate different people this afternoon that "riots" are expected at 71st and Hwy 169. All cited a third party who "heard it from the Police." Two mentioned the same church "being evacuated" ahead of time (even though that Church is well away from the supposed "riot" area).

Twitter has a few people talking about a protest at 169... they all heard it from someone, usually someone close to someone important. Blathering about stores closing early and hospitals calling in extra staff.

Sounds like people wanting there to be "excitement" with no actual issues going on. Hopefully it stays that way.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 22, 2016, 04:57:33 pm


Not disagreeing with that, just commenting on a possible equipment failure. We had similar technology failures in police cars at the municipality I worked for from the computer, radios, and cameras.
 

I'm not disagreeing with a possible equipment failure, but I'm seriously doubting that Officer Shelby parked her vehicle and toggled lights on to #1, as explained by cannon_fodder.  Four police videos indicate otherwise.

If equipment failure is the true reason that there's no video available from Betty Shelby's dashcam, then so be it.  We don't need a false explanation about how TPD's three toggle system "works" and why Betty Shelby's camera was not recording during the incident last Friday.

From The Frontier:
Quote

Shelby’s dash cam was not functioning during the shooting. Tulsa police vehicles work on a three toggle system — when the switch is flipped to “level one,” as Shelby’s car was that night, only the lights in the rear window are active and the siren and camera remain off.

At level two, the overhead lights and camera activate. At three, all lights are on, as are the camera and the siren.

“She had it on one, because it appeared she just thought she came up on a stalled car,” Public Information Officer Shane Tuell said. “You can hear it in her voice, she says, ‘I just came up on an abandoned car.’ ”


In my opinion, Public Information Officer Shane Tuell is incorrect.  Officer Shelby did not have her toggle switch flipped to "level one."  The helicopter video and the dash cam videos from Officers Turnbough's, Dunn's, and Roy's vehicles all indicate that Officer Shelby's toggle switch was flipped to level two or three.  That's how it appears to me in all four videos.

From the Tulsa World:
Quote

Shelby turned on her police car's rear flashing lights only when stopping to approach Crutcher, which meant her dash camera did not turn on, Sgt. Shane Tuell told reporters Monday.

Attorney Scott Wood, who has represented Shelby so far, said there are about two unrecorded minutes of interaction between Shelby and Crutcher.


  


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ed W on September 22, 2016, 07:28:29 pm
I've been warned by 3 separate different people this afternoon that "riots" are expected at 71st and Hwy 169. All cited a third party who "heard it from the Police." Two mentioned the same church "being evacuated" ahead of time (even though that Church is well away from the supposed "riot" area).

Twitter has a few people talking about a protest at 169... they all heard it from someone, usually someone close to someone important. Blathering about stores closing early and hospitals calling in extra staff.

Sounds like people wanting there to be "excitement" with no actual issues going on. Hopefully it stays that way.

My son is an armed security officer. He was called to work early on the basis of this rumor. I'm  hoping he has a very quiet, even boring night.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Red Arrow on September 22, 2016, 08:55:34 pm
My son is an armed security officer. He was called to work early on the basis of this rumor. I'm  hoping he has a very quiet, even boring night.

I hope he gets paid for the extra time.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on September 22, 2016, 11:09:17 pm
That charge seems to properly fit what happened.
Agreed.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: dioscorides on September 23, 2016, 08:52:44 am
I've been warned by 3 separate different people this afternoon that "riots" are expected at 71st and Hwy 169. All cited a third party who "heard it from the Police." Two mentioned the same church "being evacuated" ahead of time (even though that Church is well away from the supposed "riot" area).

Twitter has a few people talking about a protest at 169... they all heard it from someone, usually someone close to someone important. Blathering about stores closing early and hospitals calling in extra staff.

Sounds like people wanting there to be "excitement" with no actual issues going on. Hopefully it stays that way.

Someone took those rumors and made something good out of it.  He is up to 105k views, as of right now.  Stuff like this makes me proud to be a Tulsan.
https://www.facebook.com/GeraldHurricaneHarris2/videos/903623119744404/?pnref=story (https://www.facebook.com/GeraldHurricaneHarris2/videos/903623119744404/?pnref=story)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 23, 2016, 01:11:55 pm
Says who?  The helicopter video indicates #2 or #3, not #1.

I agree that technology fails sometimes.  What I'm doubting is the statement that Officer Shelby parked her vehicle and toggled on to #1.  That doesn't jibe with the helicopter video.  It was toggled to #2 or #3 in the helicopter video, or so it seems to me and to others on this forum.


It could very well have been an incredibly coincidental equipment failure, but there's ways to find out one way or another.
Being a homicide case, investigators would have secured and write-blocked the memory cards, then done a forensic file extraction to recover the buffered video. 

Like that time you got drunk on vacation and accidentally deleted half your photos, and had to shell out for recovery software. Yeah, that.

I havent heard any mention of this being done with Shelby's dashcam... not that they have to announce every step in the investigation, of course.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 23, 2016, 01:39:38 pm


... not that they have to announce every step in the investigation, of course.


No, TPD doesn't have to announce every step.

But to me, it sounds silly for their public information officer to explain toggle levels one, two, and three, then say that Betty Shelby set hers on level one (and therefore her camera was not functioning), and then for the department to release four different videos from four different vantage points, all which seem to indicate Shelby had toggled to level two, at a minimum, not to level one.

Maybe I'm missing something ... but TPD's explanation of why Shelby's dash cam wasn't recording makes no sense to me.

Also, the videos indicate other non-police vehicles nearby.  Perhaps there will be some witnesses willing to come forward who saw and/or heard what happened before Officer Turnbough arrived.
 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 23, 2016, 01:52:02 pm
I honestly don't know that the dash cam would make all that much difference in the end. Does anyone really think something on their is going to move this up a degree in charges? I know it seems to create a sense that the force is hiding something, but does anyone really think this cop just flipped and went targeting Mr. Crutcher? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Similarly, the fact that Mr. Crutcher has a less than stellar record or may have been high as a kite really has little bearing as to whether Officer Shelby deserves to be convicted of Manslaughter or not.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 23, 2016, 01:53:45 pm
I honestly don't know that the dash cam would make all that much difference in the end. Does anyone really think something on their is going to move this up a degree in charges? I know it seems to create a sense that the force is hiding something, but does anyone really think this cop just flipped and went targeting Mr. Crutcher? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Similarly, the fact that Mr. Crutcher has a less than stellar record or may have been high as a kite really has little bearing as to whether Officer Shelby deserves to be convicted of Manslaughter or not.

The only thing I could see is if she somehow destroyed the video she could be charged with obstruction.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 23, 2016, 01:59:56 pm
I honestly don't know that the dash cam would make all that much difference in the end. Does anyone really think something on their is going to move this up a degree in charges? I know it seems to create a sense that the force is hiding something, but does anyone really think this cop just flipped and went targeting Mr. Crutcher? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Similarly, the fact that Mr. Crutcher has a less than stellar record or may have been high as a kite really has little bearing as to whether Officer Shelby deserves to be convicted of Manslaughter or not.

Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 23, 2016, 02:36:44 pm
Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.

My thoughts as well. Which makes it all the more perplexing. I find it hard to make the reach that something on that video (if it truly does exist) would be so damning as to demand this sort of deceitfulness. Maybe it truly just didn't work. It really has zero potential to help her case at all.

Anyone ever consider that maybe they are suppressing it for the family. Disparaging the dead potentially? Just seems like the force, while supportive of one of their own, at the same time has done everything else the way they should, and understand that the punishment for one of their sisters is likely to be prison time.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 23, 2016, 03:26:04 pm

From The Frontier:
Quote

Shelby’s dash cam was not functioning during the shooting. Tulsa police vehicles work on a three toggle system — when the switch is flipped to “level one,” as Shelby’s car was that night, only the lights in the rear window are active and the siren and camera remain off.

At level two, the overhead lights and camera activate. At three, all lights are on, as are the camera and the siren.

“She had it on one, because it appeared she just thought she came up on a stalled car,” Public Information Officer Shane Tuell said. “You can hear it in her voice, she says, ‘I just came up on an abandoned car.’ ”


Based on Officer Tuell's description of the toggle system, do any of the police cars in any of the videos appear to be toggled on to level one?  In my opinion, they all appear to be toggled to level two or three, because I see flashing lights and hear sirens.  I don't see lights only in rear windows (level one, as explained by Tuell).

From the Tulsa World:
Quote

Shelby turned on her police car's rear flashing lights only when stopping to approach Crutcher, which meant her dash camera did not turn on, Sgt. Shane Tuell told reporters Monday.


Do only rear flashing lights appear in the videos?  To me, it appears otherwise.

I have no idea if video from Shelby's dash cam would be useful or not.  What I'm questioning is the TPD's official explanation about why her dash cam was not functioning.  It doesn't seem to match the video coverage.
 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 23, 2016, 06:51:07 pm
I find it hard to make the reach that something on that video (if it truly does exist) would be so damning as to demand this sort of deceitfulness.

Maybe habit.  The videos they released were pretty damning in themselves, but the vantage point of Shelby's video could be pivotal to a "we dont make those kind of mistakes" narrative. 
Could it be as bad as the North Carolina shooting, where CNN just showed photographic evidence of a planted gun?  We should count our blessings.

Maybe its the difference between defending one cop, and defending the integrity of the department.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 24, 2016, 08:03:36 am
To those who think those moments recorded on Shelby's hard drive are inconsequential since she was correctly charged anyway, I would ask you this, do those 18 minutes missing from Nixon's tapes really mean anything? Was it important that he lied and came up with a contrived description of how his secretary accidentally performed a gymnastic exercise to erase them? There was plenty more evidence available to impeach him. Yet, don't you ever wonder why it was so important to erase that 18 minutes?

It has been explained here how that system works and no one seems to understand or recognize. Maybe I don't. But if it works like I think, this system is basically a 24 hour recording that "flags" time periods as programmed by its purchaser. IOW, the lights on the car mark the recording for easy retrieval, but the recording is still on full time. I doubt the PD wants to protect the family. I think there may be some elucidation as to what may or may not have justified her actions. There may be some embarrassment there that they didn't think was necessary to reveal.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 24, 2016, 10:30:47 am
An interesting excerpt from a law enforcement magazine with a story from a Los Angeles detective.

"There is a gap between the officer’s last radio transmission and when the helicopter arrived on scene that none of us have any concrete evidence as to what happened. I have not seen concrete evidence that she had a body cam and didn’t use it or what the story is about that. She may have done that on purpose or maybe she didn’t (Editor’s Note:  Sources indicate that TPD does not have body cameras). We don’t know and any opinions at this point are simply opinions. It will be interesting to hear what she says happened during this period."

She really gives a good account of what may have happened from a detective's perspective.

Here's the link. http://lawofficer.com/2016/09/detectivetulsa/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 24, 2016, 11:16:05 am
I read in the Tulsa World that Terrence Crutches wasnt responding to commands because he had "auditory exclusion." A condition brought on by stress where the body focuses on survival and blocks out sound. He was stressed by a broken car and a gun in his face and physically couldn't hear, so he couldn't comply. He was probably reaching for a notepad to try and communicate when he was shot.

Wait...no.  The article said SHE was so stressed she couldn't hear and was unaware that other officers arrived as backup. She was unaware that someone told her she has a Taser. But she totally could accurately perceive everything else, including the threat Crutches posed.

Junk science and a favorite defense in these cases... Pretending it's real, she was THAT stressed out by a noncompliant nonsuspecr after 10 years in law enforcement


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 24, 2016, 11:51:16 am
Anyone ever consider that maybe they are suppressing it for the family. Disparaging the dead potentially? Just seems like the force, while supportive of one of their own, at the same time has done everything else the way they should, and understand that the punishment for one of their sisters is likely to be prison time.

If so, they would be compromising the trust of the entire community in exchange for softening one family's hurt.  Doesnt seem like a logical transaction.

Junk science and a favorite defense in these cases... Pretending it's real, she was THAT stressed out by a noncompliant nonshsoect after 10 years in law enforcement?

Maybe thats the end result of having "We are at war" and "I have a target on my back in this uniform"  drilled into you every day.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 24, 2016, 02:36:01 pm
An interesting excerpt from a law enforcement magazine with a story from a Los Angeles detective.

"There is a gap between the officer’s last radio transmission and when the helicopter arrived on scene that none of us have any concrete evidence as to what happened. I have not seen concrete evidence that she had a body cam and didn’t use it or what the story is about that. She may have done that on purpose or maybe she didn’t (Editor’s Note:  Sources indicate that TPD does not have body cameras). We don’t know and any opinions at this point are simply opinions. It will be interesting to hear what she says happened during this period."

She really gives a good account of what may have happened from a detective's perspective.

Here's the link. http://lawofficer.com/2016/09/detectivetulsa/

Dallas detective, but who’s counting?  When I saw this, I thought: “Great, more speculation by someone who wasn’t there and would have no idea...” I’m glad you posted it because I thought that was a pretty good explanation of how this could have gone south to the rest of us who haven’t been in a similar situation.  I didn’t take it she was overly defensive for the benefit of the officer, she just laid out the facts from her experience in the field and what protocol typically calls for in similar situations.

Thanks for posting.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 24, 2016, 04:16:25 pm
I don't know where I got L.A. from.

As passionate as I am for the truth about the shooting, I am just as passionate that we're blaming players for what is a systemic problem. Training is key to changing attitudes that have flourished that are non productive within the police ranks. And no doubt there is some racial hate on all sides. There are some conspiracy theories floating around that involve drugs, bad cops and a deal gone bad. I hope there isn't anything to that, sounds like nonsense to me. Only keeping it open and honest from the dept is going to make them go away.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: sauerkraut on September 25, 2016, 02:12:13 pm

Oh, geez....maybe he stopped because the car was having trouble...??   If you had ever driven a car, you might understand that the engine can actually run, while the car is inoperable or at least dangerous to drive. 

Yeah....likely that he just attended class and got high right then.... could be. 



Or he could of been high, otherwise, he could of pulled to the side of the road shut the engine off and turned the flashers on- but he didn't- he left the car  running straddling  the roadway and walked away very strange and a safety issue to. It's a grim situation indeed.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: sauerkraut on September 25, 2016, 02:22:24 pm
Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.
People high on PCP don't follow directions well, Terence  kept putting his hands in his pockets, he didn't respond to questions she asked him- a gun hidden in the pockets could still be fired right thru the pocket in a nano second, and lets be fair the Crutcher family suffered a severe loss but it flips both ways- they need to be truthful too Terence was not the good guy they made him out to be he had a long criminal record & rap sheet, that does not mean he should of been shot- however put your self in the cops position with someone un-responsive who has their hands in their pockets what would you do? IMO I think the only reason they charged the cop so fast was to avoid civil un-rest, "mob rule".


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 25, 2016, 04:07:53 pm
People high on PCP don't follow directions well, Terence  kept putting his hands in his pockets, he didn't respond to questions she asked him- a gun hidden in the pockets could still be fired right thru the pocket in a nano second, and lets be fair the Crutcher family suffered a severe loss but it flips both ways- they need to be truthful too Terence was not the good guy they made him out to be he had a long criminal record & rap sheet, that does not mean he should of been shot- however put your self in the cops position with someone un-responsive who has their hands in their pockets what would you do? IMO I think the only reason they charged the cop so fast was to avoid civil un-rest, "mob rule".

Do you have proof he was on PCP?  His 'lengthy rap sheet'?  Check OSCN.  He was charged in 1996 for a concealed weapon, which was ultimately dismissed.  Some traffic violations as well.  Stop listening to idiots like Sean Hannity.  Even the KRMG reporter he was interviewing said his criminal history wasn't very long.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sean-hannity-rebuffed-smear-terence-crutcher-article-1.2802715


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 25, 2016, 05:46:16 pm
Do you have proof he was on PCP?  His 'lengthy rap sheet'?  Check OSCN.  He was charged in 1996 for a concealed weapon, which was ultimately dismissed.  Some traffic violations as well.  Stop listening to idiots like Sean Hannity.  Even the KRMG reporter he was interviewing said his criminal history wasn't very long.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sean-hannity-rebuffed-smear-terence-crutcher-article-1.2802715


According to Chicago Tribune (take it for what it's worth), they confirm that "Oklahoma prison officials" confirmed he was in prison from 2007 to 2011 for drug trafficking. They also mention an incident where a claim was made of him firing a gun out a car window in 2005 for which he was stopped and the weapon was found on his body. And that police had used force on Crutcher on four different occasions prior to this as recently as 2012 for a public intoxication and obstruction complaint. In this instance Crutcher's father showed up and insisted his son had an ongoing problem with PCP (ironic). He hasn't exactly been a saint over the last decade. And in particular has shown a propensity to ignore commands from police officers.


That all being said, none of that condemn's him to death. If there was no video evidence at all, I would imagine that all of this in total would lead most to believe the shooting WAS justified. But that's not the case obviously. Which is why we have camera's and such. I'm not saying it would change the ultimate outcome, just the perception by people like all of us on this forum.

I'm not sure what OSCN is supposed to have in it's database, but it's either not showing cases that resulted in prison, or other people are lying about him. Not sure which it is.

Has anyone said that the car was working or not? That would say a lot about a lot as to whether of not he was incapacitated.

All this being said, I still find it hard to say the shooting was justified. She certainly seemed to have made a huge mistake.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 26, 2016, 06:56:24 am


 

I'm not sure what OSCN is supposed to have in it's database, but it's either not showing cases that resulted in prison, or other people are lying about him. Not sure which it is.

Has anyone said that the car was working or not? That would say a lot about a lot as to whether of not he was incapacitated.

All this being said, I still find it hard to say the shooting was justified. She certainly seemed to have made a huge mistake.



Look yourself up in OSCN.  If you have had contact with courts it is there.

If that statement about being in prison was true it would be there.  What do ya wanna bet it's just another "sauerkraut style" lie**...?


**Something that has been proven to be the exact opposite of what he is saying, but he continues to spread the falsehood.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 26, 2016, 07:08:15 am


Look yourself up in OSCN.  If you have had contact with courts it is there.

If that statement about being in prison was true it would be there.  What do ya wanna bet it's just another "sauerkraut style" lie**...?


**Something that has been proven to be the exact opposite of what he is saying, but he continues to spread the falsehood.



That could also be referred to as a "Sean Hannity".


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 26, 2016, 07:21:37 am
That could also be referred to as a "Sean Hannity".


Wider scope - ALL of Faux News....the "entertainment" channel....  Biggest of their lies.





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 26, 2016, 07:45:06 am

Wider scope - ALL of Faux News....the "entertainment" channel....  Biggest of their lies.





Shepard Smith is actually not too bad.  He's called them out on occasion.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 26, 2016, 07:47:00 am
Maybe so, but I have a hard time believing the Tribune (actually it was AP) and those others mentioned above are ever on the "same page" so to speak.

I noticed that the wrap sheet list that is making the rounds on the internet appears to me to be a different TerAnce Crutcher. Is the AP also using the wrong name? I searched on OSCN and didn't find anything for the spellings I have seen for Terence. Or are Oklahoma records lying?

I don't see the need to sugar coat his past, since in this case it should have little bearing on the outcome, unless the officer knew him personally from prior experience (which I doubt).


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 26, 2016, 07:56:50 am
Maybe so, but I have a hard time believing the Tribune (actually it was AP) and those others mentioned above are ever on the "same page" so to speak.

I noticed that the wrap sheet list that is making the rounds on the internet appears to me to be a different TerAnce Crutcher. Is the AP also using the wrong name? I searched on OSCN and didn't find anything for the spellings I have seen for Terence. Or are Oklahoma records lying?

I don't see the need to sugar coat his past, since in this case it should have little bearing on the outcome, unless the officer knew him personally from prior experience (which I doubt).


Spelling is everything - and it must be precise.  The one I keep harping about has another guy with same middle name...  Allan versus Allen.  Two different people.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 26, 2016, 08:04:35 am
OSCN sometimes spells names wrong. But you can usually click on the defendants name and get a physical description, last known address, and birthday.  That can help make sure you are looking at the right person, or looking at the same person if there are different spellings. It can help, but it is no guarantee.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 26, 2016, 08:08:45 am
OSCN sometimes spells names wrong. But you can usually click on the defendants name and get a physical description, last known address, and birthday.  That can help make sure you are looking at the right person, or looking at the same person if there are different spellings. It can help, but it is no guarantee.

Since I don't know him at all it doesn't help me at all. If I didn't remember where I had lived in the past it would have been difficult to discern if that speeding citation was actually me as well.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on September 26, 2016, 08:17:56 am
I"m lucky I guess..the only thing on me on OSCN is my marriage license from 1990.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 26, 2016, 09:13:37 am
You can do an offender look up on the ODOC web site.  For some reason it is not working this morning.  Google “ODOC offender lookup” and it will bring up the link.

The Trib was correct, he’s most definitely been a guest of the ODOC.

I could be wrong, but any skirmishes adjudicated through Tulsa Municipal Court would not appear on OSCN, so that would help account for some of his contacts with the law (if they happened) not showing up in OSCN.  That assumes he’s actually got a “long” record as has been suggested in various places.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 26, 2016, 12:27:27 pm
You can do an offender look up on the ODOC web site.  For some reason it is not working this morning.  Google “ODOC offender lookup” and it will bring up the link.

The Trib was correct, he’s most definitely been a guest of the ODOC.


http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=556091&offender_book_id=333041

So how do you spell Mr. Crutcher's first name, because I searched ODOC and "TerAnce" T Crutcher was on there. And this is certainly him:

(http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/pls/portal30/off_lookup.get_image?no=1088986)

Newspaper and this site keep using an E in the middle. ODOC lists aliases of Terance, Terrance, and Terrence. None of which are used by the news sites.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 26, 2016, 12:45:37 pm
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=556091&offender_book_id=333041

Newspaper and this site keep using an E in the middle. ODOC lists aliases of Terance, Terrance, and Terrence. None of which are used by the news sites.

Funeral program

(http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/us/2016/09/24/funeral-held-for-unarmed-man-shot-by-tulsa-officer/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1474777282078.jpg)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 26, 2016, 03:26:14 pm
Still waiting for the tox report.

Regardless of history - this event is what counts, and no matter how much someone is trying to cast him as "bad dude" - they had no idea about that when this occurred.  And certainly nothing rose to the level of capital punishment.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 26, 2016, 03:59:04 pm

Regardless of history - this event is what counts, and no matter how much someone is trying to cast him as "bad dude" - they had no idea about that when this occurred.  And certainly nothing rose to the level of capital punishment.




The attorney for Terence Crutcher’s widow believes there should be more video of his death at the hands of a Tulsa police officer.

According to a TPD policy manual, officers are able to trigger dash cam video recording five different ways, including by pressing a button on a microphone worn on their duty belts or elsewhere. Attorney Dan Smolen wants to know why there’s no video from Officer Betty Shelby’s car when she was there two minutes before anyone else.

"Either they're in violation of their policy because she was not equipped with one of the triggering devices, or explain why, if she was in such fear for those two minutes, she didn't trigger the recording device," Smolen said.

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/attorney-believes-there-should-be-more-video-crutchers-death


Im only speculating, but could Shelby's video have been so outrageous as to make city leaders fear it triggering rioting?  The only saving grace in all this is that Tulsans have sofar reacted with restraint and civility.  Just how fragile that peace is could be anyone's guess.




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Bamboo World on September 26, 2016, 05:58:51 pm


...could Shelby's video have been so outrageous as to make city leaders fear it triggering rioting?


I have no idea about potentially outrageous video triggering riots, but in my opinion, the following explanation from a TPD public information officer about the lack of any video is outrageous:  

From the Tulsa World:
Quote

Shelby turned on her police car's rear flashing lights only when stopping to approach Crutcher, which meant her dash camera did not turn on, Sgt. Shane Tuell told reporters Monday.


From The Frontier:
Quote

Shelby’s dash cam was not functioning during the shooting. Tulsa police vehicles work on a three toggle system — when the switch is flipped to “level one,” as Shelby’s car was that night, only the lights in the rear window are active and the siren and camera remain off.

At level two, the overhead lights and camera activate. At three, all lights are on, as are the camera and the siren.

“She had it on one, because it appeared she just thought she came up on a stalled car,” Public Information Officer Shane Tuell said. “You can hear it in her voice, she says, ‘I just came up on an abandoned car.’ ”


After watching four different police videos, I'd say that Betty Shelby had her toggle switch set to at least level two, not to level one.  In my opinion, unless it malfunctioned, her camera should have been activated by the toggle system, as explained by Sgt. Tuell.

But today, from Dan Smolen, we're hearing that there are other ways to activate the camera:

1. Hitting the bumper of the vehicle
2. Pressing a button on a microphone worn on duty belts or elsewhere
3. Pressing the red "RECORD" button on the in-car camera
4. Pressing a button in the in-car computer

Something seems amiss.

Why pay to have the cameras installed and then not activate them?  Why not store data from the cameras and keep that information so it can be retrieved later?

From the Tulsa World, September 8, 2010 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/todayinhistory/today-in-history/article_101b0ff4-7262-583a-a8b7-bdd9db53039e.html):
Quote

TPD suit ends with dash cameras ordered

A federal judge approved a settlement in a racial discrimination lawsuit against the city of Tulsa. The action ended 16 years of litigation in the class-action case brought by black police officers. U.S. District Judge Terence Kern signed an agreement calling for the city to purchase, install and maintain video cameras for all Tulsa Police Department patrol vehicles over a period of five years. The city was also ordered to pay for data storage of information captured by the cameras.


  


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 26, 2016, 08:02:18 pm

Why pay to have the cameras installed and then not activate them?  Why not store data from the cameras and keep that information so it can be retrieved later?
  

Especially ironic since the original push for cameras was the result of the murder of Officer Gus Spanos.  One would think a cop who felt threatened would activate their camera if it could still be done after they had left their cruiser, although reading the following article, it appears some officers don’t like being on camera:

Quote
Throwback Tulsa: Police cameras and the legacy of Officer Gus Spanos

The murder of a 24-year-old rookie Tulsa police officer during a traffic stop shocked the community in 1993.

Spanos had been an offensive lineman on the University of Tulsa football team and earned a bachelor’s degree in education before entering the police academy.

He and his wife, Christie, were nearing their second anniversary and had lived in their new southside brick home for only two months. She told Tulsa World reporter David Fallis that Spanos loved his job, his life and kids.

“I think he touched a lot of the northside kids’ hearts,” she said.

His death resulted in a fund drive that raised more than $500,000 to buy and install camcorders in 117 of the 400 Tulsa police cars.

Spanos had radioed a dispatcher shortly before 2 a.m. on April 22, 1993, and provided a tag number and description of a car he had pulled over on 58th Street North, just east of Cincinnati Avenue.

Minutes later, a fellow officer found Spanos lying unconscious in a pool of blood in the street about 10 feet from his car. His gun, which had not been fired, was nearby.

Spanos died the next day of massive brain damage from a shot that struck him behind the right ear, the medical examiner said. He is among 39 Tulsa police officers killed in the line of duty.

During the trial, Assistant District Attorney Doug Horn said Kimbrough “assassinated” Spanos to avoid arrest on outstanding drug and firearms warrants and because he had $27,000 worth of cocaine in his possession.

Kimbrough was convicted of first-degree murder on May 25, 1994. He was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole after the jury deadlocked 10-2 on the death penalty. He also received a life sentence for cocaine trafficking.

Shortly after the Spanos shooting, a Tulsa woman launched “Camcorders for Cops,” a fundraising drive to equip Tulsa police patrol cars with camcorders.

“The tragic shooting of Officer Spanos and the escape of the perpetrator demonstrates a great need for this equipment,” Gloria DeMier said.

Her husband, Tulsa County assistant district attorney Fred DeMier, said he believed the cameras would be a deterrent to anyone considering assaulting an officer.

Their son, Fred DeMier Jr., was a retired police officer who had survived being shot by a mental patient in 1981.

As a result of the fund drive, Tulsa Police Chief Ron Palmer said in October 1993 that his department would soon have 120 video cameras in its patrol cars.

“We’re going to be breaking a lot of new ground,” Palmer said of a metropolitan area putting the new technology into such wide usage.

However, a University of Tulsa law professor cautioned that the cameras opened a “Pandora’s Box” that would force police to address far-reaching issues such as privacy and the handling of evidence.

A year later, some officers said they had pulled the plug on the cameras, fearing that the tapes were being monitored by supervisors or the Internal Affairs Unit.

“There’s some apprehension,” said one officer, who asked not to be identified. “They’re a great tool for DUIs, but they can be used against you. That’s what bothers us. It’s like Big Brother watching over your shoulder.”

Others said the cameras malfunctioned frequently, were a hassle to use and obscured the view because they were attached to the windshield.

By 1998, only 69 of the units were still being used and a decade after Gus Spanos died, the camera program had been abandoned.

In 2010, a federal judge approved a settlement between black police officers and the city of Tulsa, requiring the city to install cameras in police cars and maintain them for five years.

The city spent $4 million for the equipment. But the computer processors that worked with the dash cameras proved too weak and the Sprint network connection had dead spots.

The problems persisted and only about 200 of the department’s 500 patrol cars have functioning dash cameras, officials said in September.

Meanwhile, the department has plans to outfit its 700-plus officers with body cameras this year at a cost of $1.2 million. Half of the money is from a Department of Justice matching grant. The goal is to increase trust and accountability between law enforcement agencies and their communities.

Sand Springs has used body cameras for over seven years. Other area cities using them include Owasso, Muskogee, Tahlequah, Okmulgee and Henryetta.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-police-cameras-and-the-legacy-of-officer-gus/article_182e3dfa-ab55-52a7-b3f8-484f8a968cb7.html


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 27, 2016, 11:14:28 am

After watching four different police videos, I'd say that Betty Shelby had her toggle switch set to at least level two, not to level one.  In my opinion, unless it malfunctioned, her camera should have been activated by the toggle system, as explained by Sgt. Tuell.

But today, from Dan Smolen, we're hearing that there are other ways to activate the camera:

1. Hitting the bumper of the vehicle
2. Pressing a button on a microphone worn on duty belts or elsewhere
3. Pressing the red "RECORD" button on the in-car camera
4. Pressing a button in the in-car computer

There are actually more.

Geek out:

VIDEO & AUDIO RECORDER
FEATURES • Resolution (352 x 240) CIF or (720 x 480) D1
• Frame Rate 30 / 10 / 1 fps
• GPS Module Standard
• Recording Media SD Card (SDHC) Class 6 or Class 10
• Number of Slots 4
• SD Card (SDHC) Capacity 32GB standard, expandable up to 128GB
• Hours of Recording1 D1 HI: Up to 128 at 30 fps & 696 at 1 fps
(with 128GB of SDHC) D1 Std: Up to 192 at 30 fps & 928 at 1 fps
D1 10: Up to 256 at 10 fps & 1,664 at 1 fps
CIF: Up to 384 at 30 fps & 2,592 at 1 fps
• Officer Information Import from USB Drive or Manual Input
• Pre/Post Recording Up to 90 Seconds
• REC Stop Trigger
• Program Recording 1 Week

CONTROLS • Interfaces Ethernet, Power, USB, Audio, Cameras,
Control Panel, Triggers, GPS Antenna
• On Video and Audio Recorder Record, Stop
• Via PC or Control Panel Record, Stop, Play, Pause, Slow
• External Triggers Up to 16 Configurable (including Radar,
Siren, Lightbar, Shotgun Rack)


Each can be enabled/disabled in software.
So when you hear "The cameras have to be manually turned on by the officer" its a half-truth.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 27, 2016, 12:23:57 pm
Pre/post recording up to 90 seconds. Which would have much of the missing 2 minutes when she first stopped. Whatever, they're just waiting for this to pass from top of mind consciousness. Should take a couple more weeks.

Anyone remember what happened to the cop who shot his daughters boyfriend to death?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 27, 2016, 01:01:17 pm
Pre/post recording up to 90 seconds. Which would have much of the missing 2 minutes when she first stopped. Whatever, they're just waiting for this to pass from top of mind consciousness. Should take a couple more weeks.

Anyone remember what happened to the cop who shot his daughters boyfriend to death?

His trial starts next week, it's been all over the news.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 27, 2016, 05:46:42 pm
Losing a lot of faith in tv news recently and cancelled the TW. So, basically happier, a bit out of touch and much better company for others.
 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 27, 2016, 08:02:50 pm
Losing a lot of faith in tv news recently and cancelled the TW. So, basically happier, a bit out of touch and much better company for others.
 

I’ve said you were out of touch for years, Aqua!


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 28, 2016, 08:48:14 am
Losing a lot of faith in tv news recently and cancelled the TW. So, basically happier, a bit out of touch and much better company for others.
 


You can just check in about every week or two and be as up to date as if stayed in front of tv/computer all day long.  Nothing new really occurs very often....mostly just the same ole things over and over.  This place is about as up to date as any other source.  And then can google for a deep dive to get details....



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: sauerkraut on September 28, 2016, 11:27:34 am
Do you have proof he was on PCP?  His 'lengthy rap sheet'?  Check OSCN.  He was charged in 1996 for a concealed weapon, which was ultimately dismissed.  Some traffic violations as well.  Stop listening to idiots like Sean Hannity.  Even the KRMG reporter he was interviewing said his criminal history wasn't very long.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sean-hannity-rebuffed-smear-terence-crutcher-article-1.2802715
The proof comes with the lab reports, plus he had PCP inside his car- his actions at the time are that of someone high on PCP, unresponsive, he parked his car almost into the on-coming traffic lane left the engine running and got out & walked around. He did commit a felony at the time by having PCP in his car and driving. What ever his criminal history was he just was released from prison a few months earlier, so he was no boy scout like what the family is playing him up to be. 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: sauerkraut on September 28, 2016, 11:36:49 am
Still waiting for the tox report.

Regardless of history - this event is what counts, and no matter how much someone is trying to cast him as "bad dude" - they had no idea about that when this occurred.  And certainly nothing rose to the level of capital punishment.


They had some idea they were not dealing with a boy scout when PCP was found in the car, The shooting happened when he did not remove his hands from his pockets, anyone remember the cop who did wait a second too long and ended up gurgling blood as he was calling for help on his radio? Cops want to go home to their family too. This is about split second dessions - people with guns like to keep their hands in their pockets. Tampering with a dash camera would be a crime, would a cop want to risk that?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 28, 2016, 12:09:24 pm
They had some idea they were not dealing with a boy scout when PCP was found in the car, The shooting happened when he did not remove his hands from his pockets, anyone remember the cop who did wait a second too long and ended up gurgling blood as he was calling for help on his radio? Cops want to go home to their family too. This is about split second dessions - people with guns like to keep their hands in their pockets. Tampering with a dash camera would be a crime, would a cop want to risk that?


What are you talking about??   This is the Terence Crutcher thread.  You remember a week ago, don't you, when the videos showed him with his hands in the air?  Maybe not...


Are you kidding??  Or even more oblivious than normal?   This cop committed a crime by killing him in the first place.  Planting a little PCP, or other drug, is no big deal - it is an "honored tradition" by a few TPD officers going back at least to the 60's.  As for tampering a dash cam...well that is a non-event in the world of crime - there is never a consequence for that.  Ever.


Since I don't really know what it is you are on when you do these posts, I can't tailor it to the moment, but I do recommend this as a catch-all, cover a wide range of possibilities for your listening enjoyment while impaired!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0&index=11&list=RDInRDF_0lfHk



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 28, 2016, 12:32:56 pm
I’ve said you were out of touch for years, Aqua!

You've been saying that about me? So, that's the source....


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 28, 2016, 12:35:31 pm

You can just check in about every week or two and be as up to date as if stayed in front of tv/computer all day long.  Nothing new really occurs very often....mostly just the same ole things over and over.  This place is about as up to date as any other source.  And then can google for a deep dive to get details....



Quite true. Stuff I read here is usually weeks, months or sometimes years ahead of the public news. I remember when a poster made note of yellow flags wrapped around trees, and drill core samples being taken along the path near where the Gathering Place is going to be. We really knew a couple years ahead of time that serious stuff was about to happen.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on September 28, 2016, 12:38:03 pm

What are you talking about??   This is the Terence Crutcher thread.  You remember a week ago, don't you, when the videos showed him with his hands in the air?  Maybe not...


Are you kidding??  Or even more oblivious than normal?   This cop committed a crime by killing him in the first place.  Planting a little PCP, or other drug, is no big deal - it is an "honored tradition" by a few TPD officers going back at least to the 60's.  As for tampering a dash cam...well that is a non-event in the world of crime - there is never a consequence for that.  Ever.


Since I don't really know what it is you are on when you do these posts, I can't tailor it to the moment, but I do recommend this as a catch-all, cover a wide range of possibilities for your listening enjoyment while impaired!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0&index=11&list=RDInRDF_0lfHk


I think he's on PCP!! He seems to know more than most about how people act under the influence. Maybe he sells it. No, I think I saw him or heard him say he was on it....Yeah, that's the ticket....


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 01, 2016, 04:54:15 pm

This cop committed a crime by killing him in the first place.  Planting a little PCP, or other drug, is no big deal - it is an "honored tradition" by a few TPD officers going back at least to the 60's.  As for tampering a dash cam...well that is a non-event in the world of crime - there is never a consequence for that.  Ever.







All the evidence points to there being an additional 3 minutes of dash cam video that TPD is not only withholding but denying exsts. 


Spokesmen lied about the circumstances of the recording, and even local media stopped showing video that contradicted the official version.
"The cameras have to be manually turned on by the officer" was a bold-faced lie that even "investigative reporters" let slide.
All the parties involved might have agreed suppressing the critical video was essential to keeping the peace, but how can they (or their sound-bite lackeys) be trusted now?


Could it be as bad as this?
“F—K this guy,” the officer says before aiming his police cruiser at the mentally ill homeless man that he and his partner had been sent out to confront. “I”m going to hit him.”
“Okay, go for it. Go for it,” his partner responds, his voice recorded on the police cruiser’s dash cam.

Twice, the man dodges their accelerating cruiser. In the second attempt, he leaps into a median, barely avoiding the vehicle.
But the 51-year-old, Joseph Mann, could not escape the volley of bullets that followed moments later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/01/im-going-to-hit-him-dashcam-shows-cops-tried-to-run-over-man-before-shooting-him-14-times/


Animals.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 04, 2016, 06:40:21 pm
Before Terence Crutcher’s flesh came to live and dwell among us as a hashtag, a police officer in a helicopter said that he looked like a “bad dude” who was probably “on something.” Deeply problematic, likely racist, and perhaps miscalculated, the officer started a familiar narrative that is often used to justify two types of violence. First, it justifies police escalation while the person is still alive. Second, it starts to rationalize police action once the victim is killed.

Police departments, prosecutors, and mainstream media fall deeper into character assassination after the victim’s death, releasing untimely or irrelevant information to further rationalize the killer’s actions. The public quickly learned of Michael Brown’s encounter with a store clerk before his murder, and of the autopsy report revealing marijuana in his system. A prosecutor suggested that Tamir’s family had “economic motives” in the outcome of the grand jury process. News outlets chose to circulate Sam DuBose’s mugshot, the victim, and not Officer Ray Tensing’s mugshot, the one charged with his murder. Now, the nation has learned that officers found PCP in Terence Crutcher’s truck after his death. And? Even if true, his hands were still visible, up, and non-threatening. An officer pulled the trigger anyway.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bad-dudes-have-rights-challenging-problematic-police_us_57e272c5e4b05d3737be519b





Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby killed Terence Crutcher by accident, but the police union is murdering him every day:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/officer-betty-shelby-s-attorneys-are-told-terence-crutcher-was/article_6e1f1a5e-5b64-5f51-9de6-3a443ac5296d.html



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on October 04, 2016, 07:48:13 pm
Before Terence Crutcher’s flesh came to live and dwell among us as a hashtag, a police officer in a helicopter said that he looked like a “bad dude” who was probably “on something.” Deeply problematic, likely racist, and perhaps miscalculated, the officer started a familiar narrative that is often used to justify two types of violence. First, it justifies police escalation while the person is still alive. Second, it starts to rationalize police action once the victim is killed.

Police departments, prosecutors, and mainstream media fall deeper into character assassination after the victim’s death, releasing untimely or irrelevant information to further rationalize the killer’s actions. The public quickly learned of Michael Brown’s encounter with a store clerk before his murder, and of the autopsy report revealing marijuana in his system. A prosecutor suggested that Tamir’s family had “economic motives” in the outcome of the grand jury process. News outlets chose to circulate Sam DuBose’s mugshot, the victim, and not Officer Ray Tensing’s mugshot, the one charged with his murder. Now, the nation has learned that officers found PCP in Terence Crutcher’s truck after his death. And? Even if true, his hands were still visible, up, and non-threatening. An officer pulled the trigger anyway.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bad-dudes-have-rights-challenging-problematic-police_us_57e272c5e4b05d3737be519b





Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby killed Terence Crutcher by accident, but the police union is murdering him every day:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/officer-betty-shelby-s-attorneys-are-told-terence-crutcher-was/article_6e1f1a5e-5b64-5f51-9de6-3a443ac5296d.html



Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.  There had been issues between the Crutcher/Johnsons and some neighbors recently based on a PO filed against his wife in which he was named.   It’s becoming obvious Crutcher had issues or a substance abuse problem which led to his odd behavior the night he was killed.  Crutcher and his wife were not model citizens by any stretch of the imagination and I don’t think anyone has tried to make them out as such.  But it does appear there was a recent escalation in his odd behavior.  We will find out soon enough when his tox results are announced.  He definitely did not deserve to die because of those suspected issues...but- Officer Shelby also has a right to establish why she felt threatened enough to have her gun drawn on him.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: davideinstein on October 04, 2016, 11:02:52 pm
Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.  There had been issues between the Crutcher/Johnsons and some neighbors recently based on a PO filed against his wife in which he was named.   It’s becoming obvious Crutcher had issues or a substance abuse problem which led to his odd behavior the night he was killed.  Crutcher and his wife were not model citizens by any stretch of the imagination and I don’t think anyone has tried to make them out as such.  But it does appear there was a recent escalation in his odd behavior.  We will find out soon enough when his tox results are announced.  He definitely did not deserve to die because of those suspected issues...but- Officer Shelby also has a right to establish why she felt threatened enough to have her gun drawn on him.

His behavior outside of the incident going to trial has literally nothing to do with her being charged with first degree manslaughter. It's upsetting that it will go that way during the trial it appears.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on October 04, 2016, 11:15:10 pm
Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.

Interesting how that changed from Crutcher to "a black man."
And then there's this:
The motion claims they found a gun on the ground near an address of 1531 East 52nd Street North. FOX23 investigated the address, and were unable to find it anywhere in the area.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 05, 2016, 01:49:46 pm
My problem is that the releases aren't to set up a defense... It is doubtful that the POs, his past, or allegations that he shot a gun in the are would ever come in at a trial of the Officer. They are utterly irrelevant unless she knew of those things at the time and tries to use them to explain why she was more afraid than she ever was in her life.

If she didn't know the allegations, they are utterly irrelevant. Like if a drunk driver veers off the road and I to your house, but happens to crash I to a meth lab. The fact that police later discovered that you had a meth lab doesn't excuse the actions of the drunk driver...who was in no way motivated by that fact or, even if they were, not authorized to act in the manner they did.

Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on October 05, 2016, 02:07:47 pm

Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...

Exactly.  It IS a defense tactic, not unlike Clark Brewster making sure the media was well-aware of Eric Harris’ past well before Bates’ case made it to trial.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on October 05, 2016, 05:28:48 pm
Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...

Not applicable to this discussion. In your example there is only one acting party. In Crutcher's case there are two, and the actions of both have a lot to do with the innocence of guilt of the officer in this case.

And that is why, even though Shelby wouldn't have known at the time, previous actions will likely play a part in this as there has yet to be any dash cam footage substantiating Crutcher's actions. Fair or not, Crutcher's actions should not have condemned him to death, but they might have led to it.

I'm not insinuating innocence, just saying the example is a poor one.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2016, 07:48:36 am
Not applicable to this discussion. In your example there is only one acting party. In Crutcher's case there are two, and the actions of both have a lot to do with the innocence of guilt of the officer in this case.

In my scenario the actions of the guy making meth in his house are as much to blame for the drunk crashing into it as Crutches actions before have to do with getting shot that night.

Assuming the Officer knew nothing of the previous actions, firing a gun in the air at some previous time could not have influenced her decision in any way. Assuming the drunk didn't know there was a meth lab in the house, he couldn't have decided to ram it to save the neighborhood. Crutcher firing a gun some previous day without the Officers knowledge did not cause her to be more afraid than she ever had been before.

I don't see any relevance and I guess I  need further explanation of your thought process.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2016, 08:33:55 am
In my scenario the actions of the guy making meth in his house are as much to blame for the drunk crashing into it as Crutches actions before have to do with getting shot that night.

Assuming the Officer knew nothing of the previous actions, firing a gun in the air at some previous time could not have influenced her decision in any way. Assuming the drunk didn't know there was a meth lab in the house, he couldn't have decided to ram it to save the neighborhood. Crutcher firing a gun some previous day without the Officers knowledge did not cause her to be more afraid than she ever had been before.

I don't see any relevance and I guess I  need further explanation of your thought process.

Unless she had previously arrested him or encountered him on a domestic disturbance call, there’s little chance Officer Shelby had a clue of any of Crutcher’s past transgressions when she encountered him.  His firing a gun the day before, which I’m assuming was unknown to her at the time, would not have weighed on any decision to draw her firearm as no one has said she was called to that situation the day before.  So, no, Crutcher firing a gun the day before would not have made her more afraid than ever, but if he was babbling about guns and reaching in his pockets, she might have been scared shitless.  Only two people appear really know what was said or what his actions were and one of them is dead.  At least according to one of the 911 calls, there is a witness who seems to have seen some bizarre behavior.

In lieu of questions raised by the video such as: "Was he reaching into his left pocket when tazed/shot?"  "Was he capable of the kind of odd behavior which would lead a solo female cop to draw on him?” A jury knowing just the day before he’d been walking down a street randomly firing a gun might indicate he was either mentally ill or had a drug/drinking problem which would lead to the sort of behavior which would cause any prudent cop to pull their weapon while waiting for backup to arrive.  We don’t have audio or video tape of the guesstimated two minutes prior to other units arriving to see if he was talking incoherently, walking with his hands in his pockets, and talking about guns, bombs, etc.

I’m going to guess with all that in mind, the defense will try to establish a pattern of drug use resulting in dangerous behavior which had been escalating just prior to his death.  Whether that is an admissible defense or enough of a mitigating circumstance for a jury to give her 4 years as opposed to a life sentence is beyond me.  I can only assume that is why it’s being floated out there.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on October 07, 2016, 10:01:14 am
What about the guy who fired the Taser? She wasn't alone. He didn't pull a gun. He was not scared enough to do so.  Add in the failure to provide the previous two minutes which I feel is actually on her dash cam and will never be presented, a helicopter nearby, and you have to ask just how scared could she be. Here's a thought to defuse such a situation, stand back and wait patiently to see what transpires instead of being the catalyst for violence. If she had simply waited, at a distance, ready for the next phase to unfold, this tragedy ends differently.

I feel for her really, but this effort to paint him as either an escalating drug user or mentally unstable etc. is akin to pulling up a rape victims last date. It is a gambit worth pulling by the defense but is totally useless as a defense.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2016, 10:53:02 am
What about the guy who fired the Taser? She wasn't alone. He didn't pull a gun. He was not scared enough to do so.  Add in the failure to provide the previous two minutes which I feel is actually on her dash cam and will never be presented, a helicopter nearby, and you have to ask just how scared could she be. Here's a thought to defuse such a situation, stand back and wait patiently to see what transpires instead of being the catalyst for violence. If she had simply waited, at a distance, ready for the next phase to unfold, this tragedy ends differently.

I feel for her really, but this effort to paint him as either an escalating drug user or mentally unstable etc. is akin to pulling up a rape victims last date. It is a gambit worth pulling by the defense but is totally useless as a defense.


Without having been trained on how to respond in such situations, all the rest of us can do is question why she pulled her gun.  It does not appear to make sense to any of us who have commented thus far on this thread.   Supposedly, she was trained in recognizing the behavior of someone on PCP and I can only assume she thought he was high on it and things could get ugly in a hurry.  Listening to other cops talk about it (in particular the detective from Dallas who talked about her own three minute boxing match with a guy on PCP) I could see why one might exercise extreme caution.  Should that form of caution been to retreat behind her vehicle and keep an eye on him or pull a gun and start barking orders?  I honestly do not know.  I can only assume the officer had been trained at some point that if a suspect can pull a gun from his pocket or pants, point, and shoot fast enough she could die as a result.

Perhaps this is a watershed case where law enforcement takes a long look at what sort of response they are training their officers for when things like this go down.  Expensive lawsuits, settlements, and bad PR can have an impact on such things.

I’m honestly surprised we never heard any outrage over the guy who was killed in July for throwing a screwdriver at an officer.  Interestingly enough that officer was hired in Dec. 2011 which I believe that is about the same time as Betty Shelby.  The following day two cops shot a man wielding an axe and a hammer.  One officer had been on the force since 2006 and the other since 2013.  That’s three officers with five or less years on the force involved in three fatality shootings in a two month period. 

That does call in to question if there is something different in the training of younger officers or this is all a coincidence.  I guess one would really need to dig back five years on other officer-involved shootings to see if there is a pattern related to the training of newer officers.

Apparently, the guy who chucked the screwdriver at cops had previously brandished a knife and the guy with the axe charged at officers though that was never confirmed by video so there may have been more room to say there was a real threat.  The widow (who had called the cops as she was the one being threatened) of the guy with the axe put the blame on him for the shooting, not the cops in that incident.

All that said, if all we armed our cops with were tasers and billy clubs to prevent suspect shootings accidental or otherwise, we might have more cops end up dead.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on October 07, 2016, 07:46:16 pm

All that said, if all we armed our cops with were tasers and billy clubs to prevent suspect shootings accidental or otherwise, we might have more cops end up dead.

Or not, if a unilateral police demilitarization (with a return to community-based policing) deescalates the tension between cops and community.

But who does that?  Well, the world.



US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries


In the first 24 days of 2015, police in the US fatally shot more people than police did in England and Wales, combined, over the past 24 years.

There has been just one fatal shooting by Icelandic police in the country’s 71-year history. The city of Stockton, California – with 25,000 fewer residents than all of Iceland combined – had three fatal encounters in the first five months of 2015.

Police in the US have shot and killed more people – in every week this year – than are reportedly shot and killed by German police in an entire year.

Police in the US fatally shot more people in one month this year than police in Australia officially reported during a span of 19 years.

Police in Canada average 25 fatal shooting a year. In California, a state just 10% more populous than Canada, police in 2015 have fatally shot nearly three times as many people in just five months.


...and on and on.   Something went terribly wrong in the U.S. for us to be in this position.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on October 08, 2016, 09:08:14 am
While those statistics are interesting they rarely tell the whole story. The United States on average is no more a violent civilization than most other "Westernized" parts of the world. Guns ownership has also shown to be relatively statistically insignificant (at least one Harvard study that I am aware of anyway). For whatever reason, the murder rate however tends to be high. This confounds many who truly try to study it.

Most serious studies that I have read (not on The Guardian) can never really pinpoint what the silver bullet is so to speak. But the factors that really seem to be saying something are all things that make people uncomfortable to talk about.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 08, 2016, 10:32:53 pm
Perhaps this is a watershed case where law enforcement takes a long look at what sort of response they are training their officers for when things like this go down.

Their actions so far seem to be the routine tactic of deflecting blame to the victim, so dont hold your breath expecting change.

It should be a felony to tamper with dash cam evidence, with no exemptions for police. 
Same goes for radio logs.  Anyone notice the EMSA radio traffic does not quite line up with the videos?





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 14, 2016, 09:23:52 pm

Anyone remember what happened to the cop who shot his daughters boyfriend to death?


Kepler had dumped his daughter at the homeless shelter to teach her a lesson, but she fell in love with someone there. When Kepler found out she was in a relationship with the guy on facebook, he used NCIC, cellphone data and other "secure" police databases to background check and stalk the guy, found his house, got shitfaced, targeted him for execution.  Sat in a car until his daughter came out and shot him point-blank in the face.

After Kepler was arrested, a gun magically appeared in a trash can inside the interview room.
O’Carroll, in his arguments, alleged the gun could have been placed there out of the view of surveillance cameras because of the trash can’s position in the room.

He said his client intends to present a self-defense case that will corroborate why there was a gun in the trash can.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/judge-suppresses-former-tulsa-police-officer-s-statement-about-drinking/article_b73c8ea7-8e27-5d6c-8340-912009137bab.html

But sorry, too much premeditation for a stand-your-ground defense.  The union will arrange for a minimal sentence at an out-of-state country-club prison with an early release based on how much good he did while serving the community.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 14, 2016, 09:25:28 pm
It's a "Yay we found drugs in the victim" rally!

Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby has been hastily convicted nationwide by special interest groups and the media. With new facts being released, we want Officer Shelby to know that we stand in support of her.
Law Enforcement and Supporters for Media Accountabilty was formed to defend our Blue Line Heroes from the media fed war being waged against them.

 (posted from Levittown, New York).

https://www.facebook.com/events/389403971448128/?ti=icl&_fb_noscript=1

It changes nothing, because behaving cowardly is not a defense.   The 3 minutes of Shelby's dash cam video TPD lied about -- thats what matters.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 29, 2016, 06:53:14 pm
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*IkK_v5tLMg4eHsMXGuKDZw.png)

(http://i1.wp.com/videos.videopress.com/DrTGVWzX/tulsa-helicopter-1_hd.original.jpg)




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 18, 2017, 06:41:55 pm
Quote
Kepler had dumped his daughter at the homeless shelter to teach her a lesson, but she fell in love with someone there. When Kepler found out she was in a relationship with the guy on facebook, he used NCIC, cellphone data and other "secure" police databases to background check and stalk the guy, found his house, got shitfaced, targeted him for execution.  Sat in a car until his daughter came out and shot him point-blank in the face.

After Kepler was arrested, a gun magically appeared in a trash can inside the interview room.
O’Carroll, in his arguments, alleged the gun could have been placed there out of the view of surveillance cameras because of the trash can’s position in the room.

He said his client intends to present a self-defense case that will corroborate why there was a gun in the trash can.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/judge-suppresses-former-tulsa-police-officer-s-statement-about-drinking/article_b73c8ea7-8e27-5d6c-8340-912009137bab.html

But sorry, too much premeditation for a stand-your-ground defense.  The union will arrange for a minimal sentence at an out-of-state country-club prison with an early release based on how much good he did while serving the community.




Mistrial Declared In Tulsa Cop's Second Murder Trial

TULSA, Oklahoma - A Tulsa County judge declared a mistrial for a second time in a murder trial for Shannon Kepler.
Kepler is the Tulsa Police officer charged with shooting and killing his daughter's boyfriend in 2014.

Jurors deliberated for 8 and a half hours, before the judge declared the mistrial early Saturday.  The court said the jurors could not unanimously agree on a guilty verdict.

A judge declared a mistrial in November in the first trial for the same reason. That time the jury was deadlocked 11 to 1 guilty.
The lone holdout said he simply could not convict a cop.


Kepler said he learned where Lake lived after putting his name, which he obtained from a Facebook relationship status that linked him to Lisa Kepler, into the Tulsa Police Department's records system the afternoon of the shooting.
He conceded that it was a violation of policy to use the police records system, called TRACIS, for personal reasons but said he was willing to break the rules to protect his daughter.
 
Shannon Kepler said he fired his revolver a total of five times after claiming that Lake had a handgun and was making "furtive movements." But Gray and District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler said in closing arguments that Kepler's actions were not self-defense because he initiated a confrontation with Lake, acted

contrary to his training as a police officer and left the area without calling for medical attention.

“Common sense tells you, ladies and gentlemen, this is not self-defense,” Kunzweiler said. He said evidence shows that Kepler planned to initiate a confrontation with Lake, saying Kepler went home from the Tulsa Police Academy in north Tulsa on Aug. 5, changed into dark clothes, put on a dark stocking cap, grabbed an old service weapon and drove to Lake’s home in a black vehicle with dark-tinted windows.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 20, 2017, 01:01:33 pm



A judge declared a mistrial in November in the first trial for the same reason. That time the jury was deadlocked 11 to 1 guilty.
The lone holdout said he simply could not convict a cop.




So much for the Rule of Law.  Shows what people have been saying about the different standards...  can't convict a cop no matter how guilty he is proven to be.  Geez, what an "Okie" !!



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 20, 2017, 08:10:58 pm

So much for the Rule of Law.  Shows what people have been saying about the different standards...  can't convict a cop no matter how guilty he is proven to be.  Geez, what an "Okie" !!




After Holmes released jurors from service at 2:30 a.m. Saturday, one of the jurors who deliberated wrote a public Facebook post expressing anger against what was described as two older jurors who “could not look past their own prejudice towards black people” and refused to even discuss the case with the rest of the panel.
(The victim, Jeremy) Lake, who was of partial African-American descent, had just entered into a relationship with Kepler’s daughter, Lisa Kepler, and posted on Facebook the day of his death that they were in a relationship.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/juror-sounds-off-on-facebook-after-shannon-kepler-case-ends/article_deb43a2e-33f8-5cc5-bb0a-3654e191638b.html




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on March 31, 2017, 12:28:08 pm
The police defense team didnt want to taint the jury by talking to local media, yet bolted to be on "60 Minutes"

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/officer-betty-shelby-says-she-thought-terence-crutcher-was-reaching/article_dc8f623b-1c17-5c8b-b5ef-3ffa3e505b0e.html


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2017, 12:39:25 pm
Saw that - story once again does not match the video, but hey, if she can get enough alt-right Failin' fans to believe her - it only takes 1.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 01, 2017, 05:55:38 pm
Saw that - story once again does not match the video, but hey, if she can get enough alt-right Failin' fans to believe her - it only takes 1.



Shelby says the video shows Crutcher looking back at her as he stood near his SUV, something police refer to as  “targeting.” (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/officer-betty-shelby-says-she-thought-terence-crutcher-was-reaching/article_dc8f623b-1c17-5c8b-b5ef-3ffa3e505b0e.html)

Good to know her paranoia is so diverse and equitable... or is it just hatred towards men?
Any case, this clinches the pretrial publicity as nationwide so its guaranteed she will never get "a fair trial."




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 02, 2017, 05:32:06 pm
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/terence-crutcher-unarmed-black-man-shooting-60-minutes/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on April 03, 2017, 10:13:58 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/terence-crutcher-unarmed-black-man-shooting-60-minutes/

Bypassing the legal system for the court of public opinion is nothing new, but it is a tactic police attorneys like Scott Wood have complained about in the past. 
He'll likely be reminded of that in the future.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 03, 2017, 09:41:34 pm
“I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by six” is still the polite version of "shoot first, ask questions later."

The defense revolves around all the "commands she gave" that would have been recorded by the wireless microphone Shelby was wearing...the one connected to the dashboard camera with the only clear view of the incident.




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 16, 2017, 06:56:30 pm
Betty Shelby Defense Attorneys Told To Deactivate Social Media Pages (http://www.newson6.com/story/35131029/tulsa-officer-betty-shelby-due-in-court-wednesday)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 01, 2017, 06:32:52 pm

The Big Money Behind Bad Cops (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/national-nonprofit-is-raising-money-for-officer-betty-shelby-s/article_097c2570-11f4-57bc-94b1-d716f8df39b3.html)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on May 01, 2017, 10:21:02 pm
Bill Whitaker: What would've changed things?

Betty Shelby: If he would've complied.  If he would have communicated with me, if he would've just done as I asked him to do we would not be here. You and I would never have met and no one would ever know my name.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 02, 2017, 10:54:43 am
Bill Whitaker: What would've changed things?

Betty Shelby: If he would've complied.  If he would have communicated with me, if he would've just done as I asked him to do we would not be here. You and I would never have met and no one would ever know my name.


So lame.  But I guess they gotta have something...


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 02, 2017, 06:45:47 pm

So lame.  But I guess they gotta have something...


Since her dashcam video was suppressed with a sham excuse, her defense team can make up whatever story they want.
Just like this guy did until the department was sued for the video:

Police officer to plead guilty in fatal shooting caught on video (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/former-sc-police-officer-to-plead-guilty-in-fatal-shooting-caught-on-video/2017/05/02/9a235afe-2f35-11e7-9534-00e4656c22aa_story.html)

or more recently, this guy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/05/01/officer-fatally-shoots-15-year-old-boy-in-dallas-suburb)

People who commit murder tend to lie about it.  Why is that rocket science?
 





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 02, 2017, 09:42:45 pm

Scott’s shooting—which took place in April 2015, a few days before the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore—became a kind of litmus test in the discourse around police reform and Black Lives Matter. If you could find a way to defend Slager’s decision to kill Scott, it meant you would probably never be convinced, under any circumstances, that a police officer could ever be guilty of a crime for taking someone’s life in the line of duty.  As it happened, at least one such person got seated on the jury for Slager’s murder trial last year in South Carolina, resulting in a deadlock that suggested that the American legal system was simply not equipped to deliver justice to victims of police violence. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/02/michael_slager_pleads_guilty_for_shooting_walter_scott_jeff_sessions_can.html)



Would a jury convict a police officer of criminal violence? Would it reject the idea that wearing a badge grants almost total impunity for any action? These questions were answered with terrible clarity: No (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/12/the_walter_scott_case_can_cops_kill_with_impunity.html).





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on May 05, 2017, 11:29:40 am
Anyone here got one of these in the mail?

(https://blackwallsttimes.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/img_7161.png?w=640)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ibanez on May 05, 2017, 11:58:47 am
Anyone here got one of these in the mail?

(https://blackwallsttimes.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/img_7161.png?w=640)

I wonder how 60 Minutes would feel about their logo being used on this mailing?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 06, 2017, 05:46:00 pm
I wonder how 60 Minutes would feel about their logo being used on this mailing?

Last chance to taint the jury (tryouts begin Monday) and lock in that one RWE that wont convict a cop under any circumstances.


In today’s society when a police officer receives a call, he knows, he is no longer respected by the community or by the system that he swore an oath to protect and serve. These are not his friends and neighbors. Those he endeavors to help may be waiting in ambush for him. He is just a pawn in the game and continually at the mercy of the government.


Institutional Racism Has Shelby’s Back (https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2017/05/03/institutional-racism-has-shelbys-back/)



Media whore Scott Walton wants in on the publicity too:

An area sheriff expressed his support in an open letter for a Tulsa police officer charged with manslaughter, stating that  law enforcement’s “ability to protect themselves and others” may also be on trial. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/rogers-county-sheriff-scott-walton-issues-letter-in-support-of/article_b41d226a-00d1-518c-a2f3-b16ef33837dd.html)

And do stuff like this
 Okmulgee County chief deputy arrested on robbery, assault charges (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/okmulgee-county-chief-deputy-arrested-on-robbery-assault-charges/article_e4575803-812a-514d-baaa-9b80ca5dae2a.html)

and this
Tulsa County deputy facing rape, porn charges accused of sexually abusing another child (http://www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/former-tulsa-county-deputy-facing-rape-porn-charges-accused-of-sexually-abusing-another-child/519100834)

and this
Muskogee officer pleads no contest to assaulting ex-wife, receives deferred sentence (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/former-muskogee-officer-pleads-no-contest-to-assaulting-ex-wife/article_6c857d2f-d6c3-54e2-9ea2-ff02af1f8bcd.html)



If more police had to consider their actions might have consequences, wouldn't the result be better policing?




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 06, 2017, 10:32:16 pm


If more police had to consider their actions might have consequences, wouldn't the result be better policing?



No. Because aholes like you will still find a way to complain from the safe and secure basement, while real men and women with bravery and honor are out protecting your unappreciative azz.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on May 07, 2017, 08:21:25 am

And do stuff like this
 Okmulgee County chief deputy arrested on robbery, assault charges (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/okmulgee-county-chief-deputy-arrested-on-robbery-assault-charges/article_e4575803-812a-514d-baaa-9b80ca5dae2a.html)

and this
Tulsa County deputy facing rape, porn charges accused of sexually abusing another child (http://www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/former-tulsa-county-deputy-facing-rape-porn-charges-accused-of-sexually-abusing-another-child/519100834)

and this
Muskogee officer pleads no contest to assaulting ex-wife, receives deferred sentence (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/former-muskogee-officer-pleads-no-contest-to-assaulting-ex-wife/article_6c857d2f-d6c3-54e2-9ea2-ff02af1f8bcd.html)


I would like to point out that police are people too.   And as such, they occasionally screw up.   (see above)    But, when they do, they are arrested and prosecuted as an individual would be.

Maybe instead we should have a "position of public trust" law....   If you hold a position of public trust and violate the law, you have an extra XX yeas added to you sentence.  Whether it be fireman, policeman, politician or government employee, if you take public money, you are held to a higher standard.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 08, 2017, 09:41:50 pm
I would like to point out that police are people too.   And as such, they occasionally screw up.   (see above)    But, when they do, they are arrested and prosecuted as an individual would be.

Maybe instead we should have a "position of public trust" law....   If you hold a position of public trust and violate the law, you have an extra XX yeas added to you sentence.  Whether it be fireman, policeman, politician or government employee, if you take public money, you are held to a higher standard.


Longer deferred sentences?  
The police unions are more powerful than they have ever been, and insure cops get special treatment regardless of their crime.
They would argue that the prospect of stronger sentencing would cripple the ability of police to keep us safe, because they might have to stop and think about things like "Hey I wonder if theres' video of us beating up that drunk?" and etc.


Oh It was just a human mistake spraying my AR-15 at a car just driving away and killing a kid in the passenger seat.  But since im a Hero Warrior I ought to be able to just make up a story about how I was in fear for my life when the car "aggressively reversed" to ambush me and get the Chief to tell it to the media.
Golly gee willikers I hope my union rep can delete this body cam video.



The murder charge came six days after Jordan’s death. Last year, when Tulsa police officer Betty Shelby shot dead an unarmed man, Terence Crutcher, she was charged with manslaughter six days later. Her trial begins next week.

Town greets murder charge over teen shot by police in moving car  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/06/jordan-edwards-texas-shot-police-balch-springs)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: brettakins on May 08, 2017, 10:51:08 pm
Fallin Signs 'Blue Lives Matter' Bill Into Law
http://www.newson6.com/story/35370827/fallin-signs-blue-lives-matter-bill-into-law (http://www.newson6.com/story/35370827/fallin-signs-blue-lives-matter-bill-into-law)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 13, 2017, 06:14:06 pm
Fallin Signs 'Blue Lives Matter' Bill Into Law
http://www.newson6.com/story/35370827/fallin-signs-blue-lives-matter-bill-into-law (http://www.newson6.com/story/35370827/fallin-signs-blue-lives-matter-bill-into-law)


Existing law already gave death or life without parole to cop killers, but in a twist of irony, the new BLM laws (http://www.news9.com/story/35373525/da-shares-prosecution-concerns-about-oklahomas-new-blue-lives-matter-law) may actually weaken those:

The only real new thing is the laws, all copied from the same national FOP template, make groundless discretionary charges (http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/23/louisiana-police-chief-resisting-arrest)  like "resisting" a hate crime.

A Louisiana police chief says the state's new "blue lives matter" law, which makes it a hate crime to target a police officer, extends to simply resisting arrest. 




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on May 17, 2017, 12:10:26 pm
Today is verdict day, along with a Tsunami of information that was being withheld till now.

Fox23 reported ADA Gray not only saying video was tampered with, but Shelby and her union legal team got those videos two days prior to her even making her official report.

And it gets grittier.


Cop Who Killed Terence Crutcher Accused Of Making Her Daughter Sleep In Dog Urine: Report
The family of the slain 40-year-old publicly released the information, which they believe speaks to the character of Officer Betty Shelby.

After the defense rested in the manslaughter trial of Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby, who is on trial for the September 2016 death of Terence Crutcher, his family held an impromptu press conference on the courthouse steps on Tuesday, expressing their displeasure at how the trial went.

According to KJRH, Crutcher’s family and supporters felt that the defense and police union disparaged Crutcher’s name, when it is he who is the aggrieved (that is, dead) party.

“As opposed to Betty Shelby being on trial, it appears that Terence Crutcher is on trial,” said Pastor of Morning Star Baptist Church Dr. Rodney Goss.

To rectify that, the family presented court documents from 2005 that say Shelby’s ex-husband claimed she physically abused their children, prompting him to seek custody.

Specifically, the report claims that Shelby choked and kicked her 10-year-old daughter and forced her to sleep in dog urine.

Local reporter Jonathan McCall presented some of the documents on Twitter.

    #BREAKING Officer charged with killing #TerenceCrutcher accused of choking daughter forcing her to sleep in dog urine according to records pic.twitter.com/asTxmkKEFk

    — Jonathan McCall (@JonathanMcCall) May 16, 2017

“Her daughter said her mother had choked her and kicked her,” said Pastor of My Church Walk of Faith Marcus Howard. “We’re trying to portray her as being an angel, and an angel she is not.”

The domestic case against Shelby was eventually dismissed. Unsurprisingly, her peers in the local police union defended her.

“I don’t see how that would go to her mindset during a shooting years later,” said Tulsa Fraternal Order of Police Chairman Jerad Lindsey. “I’m sure Mr. Crutcher has many more things in his past there were not coming up because they’re not pertinent to what’s going on in this trial.”

However, the family felt that the FOP also released disparaging information on Crutcher over the weekend.

Some of the videos were about the affects of PCP and the difference between the “action and reaction” of officers.
Crutcher was known to have battled substance abuse and had PCP in his system when he was killed.

“Terence is not on trial. It is his life that we are here to protect and to make sure that justice is served,” Pastor Howard said.

The jury in the trial was instructed to come back to court Wednesday morning for closing arguments and to decide a verdict.
SOURCE: KJRH – Tulsa   https://newsone.com/3713232/betty-shelby-made-her-daughter-sleep-in-dog-urine/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 17, 2017, 03:49:52 pm
I do not know the facts of this case in any detail, I just hope the verdict is just.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 17, 2017, 04:05:42 pm
I do not know the facts of this case in any detail, I just hope the verdict is just.


That would be nice.




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on May 17, 2017, 04:12:40 pm
I do not know the facts of this case in any detail, I just hope the verdict is just.

Just so I know just exactly what we are talking about here we want just a just verdict, am I just right?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 17, 2017, 04:32:34 pm
Just so I know just exactly what we are talking about here we want just a just verdict, am I just right?

Just that I hope the verdict is just as just can be under just the facts. Just that.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Breadburner on May 17, 2017, 09:15:16 pm
They got it right....


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: glove51 on May 18, 2017, 12:13:46 pm
Today is verdict day, along with a Tsunami of information that was being withheld till now.

Fox23 reported ADA Gray not only saying video was tampered with, but Shelby and her union legal team got those videos two days prior to her even making her official report.

And it gets grittier.


Cop Who Killed Terence Crutcher Accused Of Making Her Daughter Sleep In Dog Urine: Report
The family of the slain 40-year-old publicly released the information, which they believe speaks to the character of Officer Betty Shelby.

After the defense rested in the manslaughter trial of Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby, who is on trial for the September 2016 death of Terence Crutcher, his family held an impromptu press conference on the courthouse steps on Tuesday, expressing their displeasure at how the trial went.

According to KJRH, Crutcher’s family and supporters felt that the defense and police union disparaged Crutcher’s name, when it is he who is the aggrieved (that is, dead) party.

“As opposed to Betty Shelby being on trial, it appears that Terence Crutcher is on trial,” said Pastor of Morning Star Baptist Church Dr. Rodney Goss.

To rectify that, the family presented court documents from 2005 that say Shelby’s ex-husband claimed she physically abused their children, prompting him to seek custody.

Specifically, the report claims that Shelby choked and kicked her 10-year-old daughter and forced her to sleep in dog urine.

Local reporter Jonathan McCall presented some of the documents on Twitter.

    #BREAKING Officer charged with killing #TerenceCrutcher accused of choking daughter forcing her to sleep in dog urine according to records pic.twitter.com/asTxmkKEFk

    — Jonathan McCall (@JonathanMcCall) May 16, 2017

“Her daughter said her mother had choked her and kicked her,” said Pastor of My Church Walk of Faith Marcus Howard. “We’re trying to portray her as being an angel, and an angel she is not.”

The domestic case against Shelby was eventually dismissed. Unsurprisingly, her peers in the local police union defended her.

“I don’t see how that would go to her mindset during a shooting years later,” said Tulsa Fraternal Order of Police Chairman Jerad Lindsey. “I’m sure Mr. Crutcher has many more things in his past there were not coming up because they’re not pertinent to what’s going on in this trial.”

However, the family felt that the FOP also released disparaging information on Crutcher over the weekend.

Some of the videos were about the affects of PCP and the difference between the “action and reaction” of officers.
Crutcher was known to have battled substance abuse and had PCP in his system when he was killed.

“Terence is not on trial. It is his life that we are here to protect and to make sure that justice is served,” Pastor Howard said.

The jury in the trial was instructed to come back to court Wednesday morning for closing arguments and to decide a verdict.
SOURCE: KJRH – Tulsa   https://newsone.com/3713232/betty-shelby-made-her-daughter-sleep-in-dog-urine/


No offense, but that is a complete load of horsesh!t.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 18, 2017, 12:48:27 pm
Anyone check on Vashta?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 18, 2017, 10:15:55 pm
Anyone check on Vashta?



Awwww.

 


Gray told jurors that enhanced video clips of the shooting appear to show that Crutcher was shot five seconds before he appeared to reach inside the SUV (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/betty-shelby-not-guilty-first-degree-manslaughter)
 

Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler said that other officers knew the shooting was wrong immediately afterwards, with a fellow cop telling Shelby "not to say a word."  (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/prosecutors-police-knew-crutcher-killing-bad-shoot-article-1.3174049)

The jury in Betty Shelby's manslaughter trial began deliberations about noon Wednesday after hearing the defense call the district attorney a "hypocrite" for prosecuting her and the state's reply that an outside investigation was necessary because Shelby's police interview was a "setup job" to shield her from a criminal case.

Walker told Assistant District Attorney Kevin Gray that he showed Shelby video of the shooting from a dash camera and police helicopter before going with her and Wood into an interview room for her official statement. When asked why he did so, Walker said it was “to get the most accurate statement we can” about what took place.

Gray pointed out that showing Shelby the footage before taking her statement could have affected her recollection of the shooting, to which Walker repeated that he simply wanted to get the most accurate account of events from Shelby. But under further questioning, Walker said he “can’t recall ever doing that” for a private citizen who was shown shooting someone on video.


(Gray) told the jury the timestamp (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/bettyshelby/shelby-jury-deliberates-in-closing-state-says-police-tried-to/article_cfdc970b-2b10-5f15-b4c1-711c5da4cc03.html) on the image is five seconds after the shot was fired, saying the photo instead matched the testimony of Shelby's backing officer, Tyler Turnbough, who told the jury he deployed an electric current from his Taser twice because the first five-second round was not effective at getting Crutcher to comply.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Breadburner on May 19, 2017, 06:24:13 am
Vashata on the Right.....
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YI3NoBeNwfk/hqdefault.jpg)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: AquaMan on May 19, 2017, 11:17:11 am
What Bread? Guido? Easier to make fun of the poster than address the conflicting evidence? I am very curious as to whether this effects future cases. Both sides should be able to review police video before giving their statements. The five second discrepancy is pretty alarming as well. He was twice tasered, (maybe one missed) and physically reacted. It seemed unclear when she shot him. I agree with the jury that there is no way should she ever be returned to a street officer status.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on May 19, 2017, 01:38:36 pm
Vashata on the Right.....
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YI3NoBeNwfk/hqdefault.jpg

The jury foreman published a letter essentially saying Shelby wasnt innocent, but that the DA was ineffective prosecuting her.
The civil trial is bound to be a bloodbath, but the taxpayers always pay up.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 20, 2017, 01:17:27 am
What Bread? Guido? Easier to make fun of the poster than address the conflicting evidence? I am very curious as to whether this effects future cases. Both sides should be able to review police video before giving their statements. The five second discrepancy is pretty alarming as well. He was twice tasered, (maybe one missed) and physically reacted. It seemed unclear when she shot him. I agree with the jury that there is no way should she ever be returned to a street officer status.

If you mean Vashta the guy is an anti-cop crank. No interest in any opinions he has, and certainly do not expect anything objective. I wrote on the last page that I wanted a just verdict. I do not know all the facts, and do not presume to know. I also have some faith in the justice system.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on May 20, 2017, 01:20:14 am

The civil trial is bound to be a bloodbath, but the taxpayers always pay up.

Tulsa taxpayers will pay up. And I wouldn't be sure what will happen in the civil action. I suspect every negative detail about Crutcher (whatever that is) will be discovered and likely admissible.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 20, 2017, 06:36:24 pm
"In fear for your life?"  Maybe you shouldn't be a cop.

One of the 12 jurors who acquitted Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby of manslaughter on Wednesday told The Frontier the jury penned a letter to Chief Chuck Jordan saying that
Shelby should never again be a patrol officer (https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/juror-agreed-betty-shelby-never-patrol) .
He said he felt that Shelby “was a fearful person,” and that the jury agreed someone with that mindset should not be on patrol.

 -- And while its not likely Sgt. Walker will ever see the inside of a jail cell for obstructing justice, his retirement is imminent.  Who could trust him now after the video-assisted rehearsals with Shelby and his public spats with Kuntzweiler?


Juror: We Voted ‘Not Guilty’ For Tulsa Cop After Getting Hungry, Tired (http://dailycaller.com/2017/05/19/juror-we-voted-not-guilty-for-tulsa-cop-after-getting-hungry-tired)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 21, 2017, 06:07:39 pm

A city best known in Black America for the 1921 race riots in which 35 blocks of the wealthiest black community, Greenwood, were destroyed and hundreds of African-Americans were injured or killed, wants to reset its moral compass. (https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/05/19/jurys-verdict-final-word-tulsa-officer-shot-unarmed-man)



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on June 29, 2017, 08:23:16 pm

So much for the Rule of Law.  Shows what people have been saying about the different standards...  can't convict a cop no matter how guilty he is proven to be.  Geez, what an "Okie" !!


The results of an internal investigation into a white Oklahoma police officer recently acquitted in the fatal shooting an unarmed black man may not be known now that the officer has resigned.
http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/result-internal-investigation-may-go-unknown

She wants to patrol again, but for another department.





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on July 24, 2017, 11:08:55 pm
In an open letter posted to the Rogers County Sheriff’s Office’s Facebook page on Monday, (Rogers County Sheriff Scott) Walton accuses Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler and Tulsa Police Chief Chuck Jordan of “dealing an incredible blow to the entire American law enforcement community.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/rogers-county-sheriff-scott-walton-calls-out-tulsa-county-da/article_57b3ae2c-b34b-54b0-9fbf-b622c46f3f77.html



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: BKDotCom on July 25, 2017, 07:44:50 am
In an open letter posted to the Rogers County Sheriff’s Office’s Facebook page on Monday, (Rogers County Sheriff Scott) Walton accuses Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler and Tulsa Police Chief Chuck Jordan of “dealing an incredible blow to the entire American law enforcement community.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/rogers-county-sheriff-scott-walton-calls-out-tulsa-county-da/article_57b3ae2c-b34b-54b0-9fbf-b622c46f3f77.html



Sorry Shrek, police don't have the right to kill because they're spooked.

(https://i0.wp.com/fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/police-easily-startled-sign.jpg?resize=358%2C271)


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on July 25, 2017, 08:01:13 am
Sorry Shrek, police don't have the right to kill because they're spooked.

(https://i0.wp.com/fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/police-easily-startled-sign.jpg?resize=358%2C271)

Shrek....LOL.  Now that's funny.  He does look like the human incarnation of him.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on July 25, 2017, 09:10:24 am
Sorry Shrek, police don't have the right to kill because they're spooked.

This a month after calling his former department cowards.

Sometimes you just have to look at the problem from the other side of the world.
The "American Nightmare" as seen from Australia:

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/opinion/what-justine-damonds-death-tells-us-about-american-police-and-race-20170724-gxhfui.html


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Ed W on July 25, 2017, 03:02:10 pm
In an open letter posted to the Rogers County Sheriff’s Office’s Facebook page on Monday, (Rogers County Sheriff Scott) Walton accuses Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler and Tulsa Police Chief Chuck Jordan of “dealing an incredible blow to the entire American law enforcement community.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/rogers-county-sheriff-scott-walton-calls-out-tulsa-county-da/article_57b3ae2c-b34b-54b0-9fbf-b622c46f3f77.html



I read that Walton is facing re-election later this year and his self-serving statements about Shelby are no more than red meat for his base, you know, angry, frightened white folks.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on July 25, 2017, 07:13:01 pm
Sorry Shrek, police don't have the right to kill because they're spooked.
(https://i0.wp.com/fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/police-easily-startled-sign.jpg?resize=358%2C271)


It was a really ugly week for that department.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/07/10/police-say-they-shot-two-dogs-who-charged-at-an-officer-then-the-homeowner-posted-her-video/
https://www.facebook.com/JennJuicyJCrayzae/videos/769429483228075/

When the bodycam audio finally turns on, you can hear the children scream in horror after seeing their service dogs being shot:
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/video/3701472-minneapolis-police-dog-shooting-body-cam-video/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on August 10, 2017, 10:58:14 am
I read that Walton is facing re-election later this year and his self-serving statements about Shelby are no more than red meat for his base, you know, angry, frightened white folks.

Now he has a new "I-cant-handle-a-firearm-in-a-crisis" deputy:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/oklahoma/articles/2017-08-10/the-latest-acquitted-ex-tulsa-cop-becomes-reserve-deputy


My God, people...



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on August 10, 2017, 12:10:12 pm
Now he has a new "I-cant-handle-a-firearm-in-a-crisis" deputy:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/oklahoma/articles/2017-08-10/the-latest-acquitted-ex-tulsa-cop-becomes-reserve-deputy


My God, people...



FFS is more like it.  How many came to the conclusion Shelby doesn’t belong in that sort of situation again?  This is akin to hiring Robert Bates as a reservist at another department when he gets out of jail. 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Hoss on August 10, 2017, 12:32:29 pm
FFS is more like it.  How many came to the conclusion Shelby doesn’t belong in that sort of situation again?  This is akin to hiring Robert Bates as a reservist at another department when he gets out of jail. 

I'll be very blunt here.  Walton is an idiot.  This was a straight PR move.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 10, 2017, 09:01:55 pm
I'll be very blunt here.  Walton is an idiot.  This was a straight PR move.

Rogers County.

Home of Claremorons.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on August 11, 2017, 10:49:51 am
I'll be very blunt here.  Walton is an idiot.  This was a straight PR move.


Walton is the former Tulsa cop who publicly calls Tulsa cops cowards

http://www.newson6.com/story/35677755/rogers-county-sheriff-scott-walton-recorded-berating-tulsa-officer


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on August 23, 2017, 10:15:45 pm
FFS is more like it.  How many came to the conclusion Shelby doesn’t belong in that sort of situation again?  This is akin to hiring Robert Bates as a reservist at another department when he gets out of jail. 




Former Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby wants all court records related to her manslaughter case to be sealed from public view in the interest of her privacy

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/seeking-privacy-betty-shelby-seeks-to-expunge-terence-crutcher-manslaughter/article_f3360cf1-be2d-58ee-a449-3940aec34d37.html


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 24, 2017, 08:41:10 am
The jury found her not guilty.  She has been acquitted by our system.  While many people certainly have and are entitled to and opinion on that fact, it doesn't appear she is petitioning the court for any special treatment, just making a motion that is allowed by law and many people request: 22 OS 18

Quote
A. Persons authorized to file a motion for expungement, as provided herein, must be within one of the following categories:

1. The person has been acquitted;
. . .
B. For purposes of this act, "expungement" shall mean the sealing of criminal records, as well as any public civil record, involving actions brought by and against the State of Oklahoma arising from the same arrest, transaction or occurrence.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=440214
 https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/Expungement%20TRIFOLD.pdf 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on August 24, 2017, 01:03:49 pm
There is still another trial, correct?

This wasn't a hung jury, she was acquitted. She is Not Guilty under the law.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on August 25, 2017, 09:57:31 pm
FFS is more like it.  How many came to the conclusion Shelby doesn’t belong in that sort of situation again?  This is akin to hiring Robert Bates as a reservist at another department when he gets out of jail. 

Right on cue:
http://www.fox23.com/news/robert-bates-scheduled-to-be-released-in-october-after-manslaughter-conviction/598089323

...and I believe Shelby has a civil trial coming.  Sealing the public records beforehand might be a bit premature.



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 20, 2017, 04:09:32 pm

What if he was deaf or autistic and unable to follow orders?


It would be Déjà Vu.

Witnesses yell 'he can't hear you' as cop shoots deaf man
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-holding-stick-shot-officer-oklahoma-city-49969676



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on September 20, 2017, 10:14:24 pm
It would be Déjà Vu.

Witnesses yell 'he can't hear you' as cop shoots deaf man
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-holding-stick-shot-officer-oklahoma-city-49969676



You left off the part where the deaf man was coming at police with a metal pipe that had a leather grip strap. Now, proceed with your regularly scheduled anti-police diaper wetting.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 21, 2017, 07:52:42 am
You left off the part where the deaf man was coming at police with a metal pipe that had a leather grip strap. Now, proceed with your regularly scheduled anti-police diaper wetting.


Says the Fake Fox News Sound Bite Fanboy.

Read the REST of the story...you might learn the rest of the story.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 21, 2017, 07:56:34 am

Read the REST of the story...you might learn the rest of the story.


I think he got the important parts...   When an officer pulls up and you are sitting on the porch... 

Do you:

1) Wave politely and go on about your day
2) Walk down to have a friendly deaf chat
3) Grab your metal pipe that you use in case of dog attack (you never know what will happen between the porch and the curb) and approach the officers...  When they look paranoid and reach for their guns, you continue to advance toward them, because obviously they need protection from the angry stray dog behind them.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 21, 2017, 08:26:24 am
But this doesn't happen in other countries in the world.  Why is it that our police see no option but to kill hundreds of people per year, but other nations on the planet don't?  Seriously, in no other advanced country does an investigation into a hit and run end with police shooting someone, and it seems perfectly normal. It is not common in other countries for government agents to confront a citizen and it end with the government agent killing the citizen.  That happens more times per day in the US than all year in most countries.

I'm tired of debating individual cases.  Many are likely to either always believe the "he's coming right for us" defense or that all police set out to murder black/poor/mentally ill people.  I've seen cases where I can't believe the officer decided to kill someone, I've seen scenarios where I can't believe the person put an officer in a position where they had to.  We could have the same conversation a dozen times a month, and some do.  That hasn't led anywhere.

But when you look at the macro statistics, it is undeniable that police in the United States kill magnitudes more people than any other advanced nation (even as a percent of population).  I think most people would agree that it isn't a good thing (for police or for the community). So we need to ask the questions:

1) WHY?

 and

2) Is there anything we can do about it?

Then we can discuss the risks and rewards of the potential actions. 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 21, 2017, 11:03:52 am
You are only considering that the police could be the only variable. I doubt that's it. There are a multitude of reasons that things are different here.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 21, 2017, 11:15:49 am
But this doesn't happen in other countries in the world.  Why is it that our police see no option but to kill hundreds of people per year, but other nations on the planet don't?  Seriously, in no other advanced country does an investigation into a hit and run end with police shooting someone, and it seems perfectly normal. It is not common in other countries for government agents to confront a citizen and it end with the government agent killing the citizen.  That happens more times per day in the US than all year in most countries.

I'm tired of debating individual cases.  Many are likely to either always believe the "he's coming right for us" defense or that all police set out to murder black/poor/mentally ill people.  I've seen cases where I can't believe the officer decided to kill someone, I've seen scenarios where I can't believe the person put an officer in a position where they had to.  We could have the same conversation a dozen times a month, and some do.  That hasn't led anywhere.

But when you look at the macro statistics, it is undeniable that police in the United States kill magnitudes more people than any other advanced nation (even as a percent of population).  I think most people would agree that it isn't a good thing (for police or for the community). So we need to ask the questions:

1) WHY?

 and

2) Is there anything we can do about it?

Then we can discuss the risks and rewards of the potential actions.  


One idea floated around:

Police can, and should be required to protect themselves from claims against poor behavior in the same way other professionals do. Physicians, nurses and lawyers all maintain malpractice insurance, which protects them from liability associated with their doing their jobs. Unlike qualified immunity, malpractice insurance doesn't only protect the professional; it also compensates victims. And insurance companies have a strong profit incentive to monitor professionals.

Those who exhibit patterns of reckless or abusive behavior would see their insurance premiums rise proportionally. The result would be that the "bad apples" would simply become too expensive to insure, and they would have to find work in other industries more in keeping with their capabilities.


https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-09-07/how-to-hold-police-accountable-to-the-public



Another might be to look at the influences that affect outcomes of what should otherwise be unremarkable police encounters.

Police officers need to make instantaneous high-pressure decisions. If we insist on punishing them for sometimes making the wrong call, we’ll hinder their ability to do their jobs. The logical conclusion of this line of argument, then, is that we have to tolerate a few bad, even fatal, decisions in order to make it possible for police to make good ones.

That’s the theory. The facts on the ground are that, according to the Washington Post, 963 people—including 44 who had toy weapons, 48 who were unarmed, and 241 who were known to suffer from mental illness—were shot and killed by police in the United States last year. It may be true that some of those shootings happened because well-intentioned, well-trained officers were forced into impossible situations. It’s also true that a lot of those shootings might have been avoided if American police officers weren’t trained to be so afraid of the citizens they’re supposed to be protecting.

It’s a police officer’s job to take risks the rest of us are unable or unwilling to take. That is why the vast majority of police officers, the ones who perform their duties admirably and selflessly, deserve our respect and admiration. The reason we revere cops isn’t their dedication to protecting their own lives. It’s their dedication to protecting ours.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2017/09/police_officers_need_to_accept_the_risk_that_comes_with_showing_restraint.html


You left off the part where the deaf man was coming at police with a metal pipe that had a leather grip strap. Now, proceed with your regularly scheduled anti-police diaper wetting.

It was mentioned twice in the article (Guido didnt bother reading):

He said Sanchez was holding a metal pipe that was approximately 2 feet (0.6 meters) long and that had a leather loop on one end for wrapping around one's wrist. Lindsey called for backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.
"He always had a stick that he would walk around with, because there's a lot of stray dogs," Guebara said.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 21, 2017, 11:52:45 am
I bet he read it... 

Do you grab a pipe off the porch when you go talk to cops?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 21, 2017, 12:06:46 pm
You are only considering that the police could be the only variable. I doubt that's it. There are a multitude of reasons that things are different here.

Ohh, please share. What are the other variables?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 21, 2017, 12:09:47 pm
Ohh, please share. What are the other variables?


I have one!    In Russia the police don't have to respond to pesky domestic violence calls.

(https://cdn1.pri.org/sites/default/files/styles/original_image/public/cdn2.pri.org/embeds/2017-03/russia-dv/russia-dv-infographic_0.png?itok=YzXsT47f)
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-10/least-12000-people-killed-domestic-violence-every-year-russias-not-even-sure


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: swake on September 21, 2017, 12:18:41 pm
I have one!    In Russia the police don't have to respond to pesky domestic violence calls.

(https://cdn1.pri.org/sites/default/files/styles/original_image/public/cdn2.pri.org/embeds/2017-03/russia-dv/russia-dv-infographic_0.png?itok=YzXsT47f)
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-10/least-12000-people-killed-domestic-violence-every-year-russias-not-even-sure

Russia, seriously?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 21, 2017, 12:49:14 pm

Do you grab a pipe off the porch when you go talk to cops?


Cite your source that specifically claims he grabbed a pipe off his porch to go talk to cops, or stop obfuscating.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 21, 2017, 12:57:55 pm
You are only considering that the police could be the only variable. I doubt that's it. There are a multitude of reasons that things are different here.

No, I didn't limit my considerations at all, I agree there are tons of factors.  Certainly the United States has more diversity than most advanced countries.  We have more firearms than any country.  We have unique development patters that tend to separate "us" and "them" more than many places.  Perhaps Americans are simply more prone to violence. Maybe police in the US just have a more dangerous job than everywhere else?  

There's a huge multitude of things that might go in to explain the "why."  And there is enough comparable data on many of the things that it can be intelligently discussed without everyone being on one side or the other.  There is no "us" or "them,"  everyone needs effective policing and no one wants to see innocent people shot (and no, this isn't an opinion on any one case or an assertion that most police shooting are of innocent people).

So to be clear, this is certainly not a case of everything being the police officers' fault.  


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 21, 2017, 01:14:22 pm
Cite your source that specifically claims he grabbed a pipe off his porch to go talk to cops, or stop obfuscating.

I would love to...   Since you read the article you should have seen it.... 

(From here:   http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-holding-stick-shot-officer-oklahoma-city-49969676)

1.    ....Sanchez was on the porch when Lindsey arrived.

2.    Lindsey called for backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.

3.    He said Sanchez was holding a metal pipe that was approximately 2 feet (0.6 meters) long and that had a leather loop on one end for wrapping around one's wrist. Lindsey called for            backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.
   





Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 21, 2017, 01:21:15 pm
I have one!    In Russia the police don't have to respond to pesky domestic violence calls.



This was not domestic violence.




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 21, 2017, 01:23:10 pm


1) WHY?

 and

2) Is there anything we can do about it?

Then we can discuss the risks and rewards of the potential actions. 




1.  Quiet little wink and nod behind the scene to eugenics.

2.  For the general population - no, not much.  For the behind the scenes players - onward - it's working!

 


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 21, 2017, 02:00:38 pm

This was not domestic violence.


That was a response to questions as to why we have so many shootings...   It was a response to  "What are the other variables?"    

If you lessen the police's need to respond (and thus interact with the public) then to you minimize the opportunity for violence/accidents/shootings/etc. to happen.  They should not be asked to respond to everything from fender benders to burglaries (and from allergies to packing peanuts, forgotten pass codes, and poor quality pharmaceuticals.)   We have become too much of a nanny state.

http://people.com/celebrity/911-operators-tell-all-29-of-the-dumbest-calls-theyve-ever-received/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 21, 2017, 03:26:37 pm

One idea floated around:

Police can, and should be required to protect themselves from claims against poor behavior in the same way other professionals do. Physicians, nurses and lawyers all maintain malpractice insurance, which protects them from liability associated with their doing their jobs. Unlike qualified immunity, malpractice insurance doesn't only protect the professional; it also compensates victims. And insurance companies have a strong profit incentive to monitor professionals.

Those who exhibit patterns of reckless or abusive behavior would see their insurance premiums rise proportionally. The result would be that the "bad apples" would simply become too expensive to insure, and they would have to find work in other industries more in keeping with their capabilities.


https://www.usnews.com/opinion/civil-wars/articles/2017-09-07/how-to-hold-police-accountable-to-the-public


I think the problem with a malpractice type thing for cops is that generally speaking we ask cops to partake in inherently dangerous exercises with people that generally don't have the well being of society in mind. It's a decidedly different environment than the other industries you mentioned.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: erfalf on September 21, 2017, 03:28:06 pm
No, I didn't limit my considerations at all, I agree there are tons of factors.  Certainly the United States has more diversity than most advanced countries.  We have more firearms than any country.  We have unique development patters that tend to separate "us" and "them" more than many places.  Perhaps Americans are simply more prone to violence. Maybe police in the US just have a more dangerous job than everywhere else?  

There's a huge multitude of things that might go in to explain the "why."  And there is enough comparable data on many of the things that it can be intelligently discussed without everyone being on one side or the other.  There is no "us" or "them,"  everyone needs effective policing and no one wants to see innocent people shot (and no, this isn't an opinion on any one case or an assertion that most police shooting are of innocent people).

So to be clear, this is certainly not a case of everything being the police officers' fault.  

Then please accept my sincere apologies. Maybe I too hastily read your response.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 21, 2017, 03:53:35 pm
I would love to...   Since you read the article you should have seen it.... 

(From here:   http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-man-holding-stick-shot-officer-oklahoma-city-49969676)

1.    ....Sanchez was on the porch when Lindsey arrived.

2.    Lindsey called for backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.

3.    He said Sanchez was holding a metal pipe that was approximately 2 feet (0.6 meters) long and that had a leather loop on one end for wrapping around one's wrist. Lindsey called for            backup and Barnes arrived, at which point Sanchez left the porch and began to approach the officers, Mathews said.
   

The story says the victim was on his porch holding a pipe, which the officers initially reported was a stick.  After the second officer arrived there is indication they initiated communication, at which point the victim came over to the officers.  Nowhere in the story does it validate your claim that he "grabbed a pipe off the porch" to talk to cops.

So now begins the long wait for dashcam video to be enhanced.  Meanwhile, its an international story now.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/deaf-advocates-call-oklahoma-police-shooting-tragic-not-surprising-n803226


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on September 22, 2017, 12:35:13 am
It was mentioned twice in the article (Guido didnt bother reading):


I read the article. How else would I know you left out the contributing factor to the shooting in your biased, "cops are big meanies" post?


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: guido911 on September 22, 2017, 12:41:26 am
Why is it that our police see no option but to kill hundreds of people per year, but other nations on the planet don't?

Duh. Because our police are blood-thirsty, out of control, terrorists. I mean, other countries have non-compliant, disrespectful, threatening, drug-addled, wannabe gangster, selfish, criminals like we have.  


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 22, 2017, 08:37:48 am
I read the article. How else would I know you left out the contributing factor to the shooting in your biased, "cops are big meanies" post?

I posted just the ABC News headline and link.  Nothing biased or "left out"


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: TeeDub on September 22, 2017, 09:04:01 am

"They need to put one hand out to show the sign for stop," Whitmore said. "Try to use the hands as much as possible." Officers shouldn't hesitate to write a message down on paper, or if there's time, call an interpreter, he added.


I think that is implied when they point a gun at you....   I can tell you for a fact, if someone points a gun at me, I will stop moving toward them.   Apparently patric thinks that a gun pointed at him means that he wants a hug.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: Conan71 on September 22, 2017, 10:17:01 am
How about making it mandatory to learn and use non-lethal take-downs as a part of training being preferable to raising a weapon?  This was one thing which really impressed me when I took my CCL course: even though the class was to give the proper training to earn a CCL, the instructors really emphasized non-lethal take-down and self-defense as a part of the class.

In this case, a metal pipe can potentially be lethal, but proper training in martial arts can show someone how to use it as the method to take down the aggressor.  I wasn't there so I can't say what was going on in the minds of the cops, but that seems like a situation where pepper spray or a taser would have been more than enough to end the perceived threat toward the officers.  Based on this account, it's similar to the Crutcher shooting as a taser and pistol were fired at the same time apparently. It makes me wonder if the cop with the gun was startled by the taser a split second before.  I've long thought that may have spooked Shelby into shooting Crutcher.

The other problem I do have with this one is, the victim was still 15' away from the officers when they shot.  They could have retreated behind a vehicle or gone across the street, it's not like the pipe is that much of a threat at 15'.

Again, I was not there and in the situation, but I'd like to think if someone had gotten up and approached with a pipe, I'd retreat and try to diffuse the situation or wait for more help, that my first thought wouldn't be to 10-ring him or her.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 22, 2017, 12:00:00 pm
I think the problem with a malpractice type thing for cops is that generally speaking we ask cops to partake in inherently dangerous exercises with people that generally don't have the well being of society in mind. It's a decidedly different environment than the other industries you mentioned.

If that were true of every contact then maybe, but my own experiences are almost all mutually polite and civil (as I suspect the majority are).
Doctors dont do the same jobs as lawyers, home-builders, masseuse etc. so there's no reason it couldn't apply to any sort of professional negligence.
The unions will either look at it as potentially loosing power, or a way to restore respectability to a profession that has lost so much.


Based on this account, it's similar to the Crutcher shooting as a taser and pistol were fired at the same time apparently.

It makes me wonder if the cop with the gun was startled by the taser a split second before.  I've long thought that may have spooked Shelby into shooting Crutcher.

Ever fired a gun as part of a volley?  Its a well-known reflex and nearly instantaneous.
That, and the single shot (as opposed to the customary "double-tap") is why some officers off-the-record felt the Shelby shooting was accidental.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on September 26, 2017, 09:33:35 am
How about making it mandatory to learn and use non-lethal take-downs as a part of training being preferable to raising a weapon?  This was one thing which really impressed me when I took my CCL course: even though the class was to give the proper training to earn a CCL, the instructors really emphasized non-lethal take-down and self-defense as a part of the class.

Proper training and malpractice insurance might eliminate a lot of small-town soap opera:

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/small-town-clash-between-police-men-on-utv/


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 02, 2017, 12:12:18 pm


Ever fired a gun as part of a volley?  Its a well-known reflex and nearly instantaneous.




I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.  Josey Wales always fired one, then the other, but I find simultaneous to be more gratifying.




Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: rebound on October 02, 2017, 12:56:22 pm
I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.  Josey Wales always fired one, then the other, but I find simultaneous to be more gratifying.

Yeah, but Wales used Colt Walker 1847s.  Single action. Hard to fire simultaneously.  (At least more than once.)



Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 02, 2017, 02:06:06 pm
Yeah, but Wales used Colt Walker 1847s.  Single action. Hard to fire simultaneously.  (At least more than once.)




I have an Italian version of that and fires at same time as .45 if not in a big hurry - just have to pull the hammer back and it's good to go.


Title: Re: Terence Crutcher
Post by: patric on November 20, 2017, 07:11:37 pm
I use a .45 auto and .357 mag revolver - one in each hand.  Fire simultaneously, and as fast as I can, until both are empty.

Actually, it refers to those standing next to (or in formation with) someone firing a gun, who fire their guns in a nearly instantaneous chain-reaction.
A "nervous reflex" if you will, that can be greatly compounded by improper trigger discipline.

Back on topic; Tulsa's city attorney wants the civil suit in Terence' Crutchers death thrown out because it could be "scandalous"  and the defendants all have "qualified immunity."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/city-attorney-wants-terence-crutcher-lawsuit-refiled-because-of-scandalous/article_ee6f1580-9705-5d85-b7ee-f6bf9108ec96.html