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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: patric on August 19, 2016, 10:12:05 pm



Title: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: patric on August 19, 2016, 10:12:05 pm

Family: Son killed by neighbor who called him 'dirty Arab'
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/16/us/tulsa-arab-american-shooting-trnd/index.html


Anti-Muslim hate crime targets a ... Lebanese Christian? That sad murder case in Tulsa
http://www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2016/8/18/an-anti-muslim-hate-crime-targets-a-lebanese-christian-that-sad-murder-case-in-tulsa


Racist Oklahoma Neighbor Hit Woman With Car And Later Murdered Her Son in Alleged Hate Crime
http://www.essence.com/2016/08/18/oklahoma-hate-crime-khalid-jabara


Suspect's Hit-And-Run On Arab Neighbor Was Harbinger Of Alleged Murder To Come
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/stanley-vernon-majors-hit-and-run-haifa-jabara


In Arab Christian's murder, some see deadly American cultural tensions
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/in-arab-christians-murder-some-see-deadly-american-cultural-tensions-53040/


Crowdfunding campaign raises money to seek justice for slain Lebanese-American
http://stepfeed.com/more-categories/big-news/crowdfunding-campaign-raises-money-slain-lebanese-american/


Bigoted Man Calls Neighbor ‘Dirty Arab’, Shoots Him to Death
http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/08/194476/bigoted-man-calls-neighbor-dirty-arab-shoots-him-to-death/


Years of race insults preceded slaying of Lebanese neighbor
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/years-of-race-insults-preceded-slaying-of-lebanese-neighbor/2016/08/19/98809700-6647-11e6-b4d8-33e931b5a26d_story.html


Hundreds Attend Christian Funeral Of Slain Arab-American Man
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/khalid-jabara-funeral_us_57b73c35e4b00d9c3a175d8c


Hillary Clinton Shares Letter About Murder Victim
http://www.attn.com/stories/10833/hillary-clinton-shares-letter-about-murder-victim-khalid-jabara


Police chief defends officers' decision to leave neighbor's 'suspicious activity' call minutes before homicide
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/police-chief-defends-officers-decision-to-leave-neighbor-s-suspicious/article_a5c10bcd-207e-545f-896e-bae5bc443255.html


Christian funeral planned for Arab-American slain in alleged hate crime
https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/christian-funeral-planned-arab-american-slain-alleged-hate-crime


Court records document anger of homicide suspect toward Lebanese family
https://www.readfrontier.com/investigation/court-records-document-anger-of-homicide-suspect-toward-lebanese-family/


Oklahoma Christian Man Khalid Jabara Killed By Neighbor Who Called Him ‘Dirty Mooslem’
http://www.inquisitr.com/3431320/oklahoma-christian-man-khalid-jabara-killed-by-neighbor-who-called-him-dirty-mooslem-video/





Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: swake on August 19, 2016, 11:04:06 pm
So sad, I don't understand what TPD did here, or didn't do here.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 07:57:20 am
A married homo-sexual man that's racist is strange to me....


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 07:57:58 am
So sad, I don't understand what TPD did here, or didn't do here.

They did all they could....


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: rebound on August 20, 2016, 08:53:45 am
They did all they could....

You aren't being serious, right?   Just want to confirm the troll level on this particular post...



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 09:05:34 am
You aren't being serious, right?   Just want to confirm the troll level on this particular post...



Umm....The cops put the dude in jail...How are they responsible for the low bail....Get a clue and do some research on the matter instead of jumping on the cop hater train....The court system let that family down...Particularly the Judge...


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: AquaMan on August 20, 2016, 09:12:04 am
How did the police not follow protocol? Deranged people still have rights. Police seemed powerless to stop this tragedy which reminds us that safety is an illusion.  The entire justice and social systems are overloaded, underfunded and politically sick.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: rebound on August 20, 2016, 10:17:06 am
Umm....The cops put the dude in jail...How are they responsible for the low bail....Get a clue and do some research on the matter instead of jumping on the cop hater train....The court system let that family down...Particularly the Judge...

I understand the matter very well.  I read up on this one before it even made it to this forum. Actually, I agree with you on the Judge being the most at fault here, and my original reading of your "they" was (to me) inclusive of the overall system in general.  The overall system, but maybe not specifically the police, failed this family miserably.  But, specific to the police, they were at his house minutes before the shooting.  Given the history of this man and the immediate complaint from the neighbors, I do think more than a "well, he wouldn't answer the door, so have a good day..." was warranted here.

So, yeah, not just the police, but they were the ones that dropped the ball at the end, so they bear a good portion of the responsibility.

Oh, and seriously, thanks for a reply that actually had some content in it.




Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: AquaMan on August 20, 2016, 10:45:46 am
What was warranted? No indication of a crime in progress. No warrant. Nothing but an a**hole, racist neighbor with previous bad behavior. But nothing they could nail him on when they arrived was there? So, if they had acted pre-emptively there would have been an uproar over police overstepping. Seriously, I wish someone had planted some drugs on his porch so they could have had some cause.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: rebound on August 20, 2016, 11:12:19 am
What was warranted? No indication of a crime in progress. No warrant. Nothing but an a**hole, racist neighbor with previous bad behavior. But nothing they could nail him on when they arrived was there? So, if they had acted pre-emptively there would have been an uproar over police overstepping. Seriously, I wish someone had planted some drugs on his porch so they could have had some cause.

Maybe somebody who could offer real information on this could comment, but with his previous behavior, and out on bail with a restraining order, and the neighbor says "Somebody was tapping on our windows.  I think it was this guy, and I saw his door close when we went out..." (or something similar), AND the guy is on the phone at the same time with 911 asking why the cops are there, I would think there would be justification for making him answer the door and at least answer a few questions.  Don't know if that would have changed the outcome, but leaving without talking to him is, to me, not doing due diligence given the circumstances.



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: AquaMan on August 20, 2016, 12:24:19 pm
"...making him open the door...."

How would you accomplish that? Crash the door? Remember, so far its just an asshat behaving badly. I guess they could have surrounded the house and communicated with bull horns. Other than taking the younger man into protective custody I'm not sure what else could have been done by the officers.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 01:32:59 pm
Maybe somebody who could offer real information on this could comment, but with his previous behavior, and out on bail with a restraining order, and the neighbor says "Somebody was tapping on our windows.  I think it was this guy, and I saw his door close when we went out..." (or something similar), AND the guy is on the phone at the same time with 911 asking why the cops are there, I would think there would be justification for making him answer the door and at least answer a few questions.  Don't know if that would have changed the outcome, but leaving without talking to him is, to me, not doing due diligence given the circumstances.




Real information...Lol...This piece of smile was convicted of the same garbage in California....And moved here and continued it....He should have been in jail the DA asked for a 300,000 dollar bond but it was reduced to 30,000...So he was out on bond....The judge dropped the ball big time on this trash....


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 01:35:49 pm
Family: Son killed by neighbor who called him 'dirty Arab'
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/16/us/tulsa-arab-american-shooting-trnd/index.html


Anti-Muslim hate crime targets a ... Lebanese Christian? That sad murder case in Tulsa
http://www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2016/8/18/an-anti-muslim-hate-crime-targets-a-lebanese-christian-that-sad-murder-case-in-tulsa


Racist Oklahoma Neighbor Hit Woman With Car And Later Murdered Her Son in Alleged Hate Crime
http://www.essence.com/2016/08/18/oklahoma-hate-crime-khalid-jabara


Suspect's Hit-And-Run On Arab Neighbor Was Harbinger Of Alleged Murder To Come
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/stanley-vernon-majors-hit-and-run-haifa-jabara


In Arab Christian's murder, some see deadly American cultural tensions
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/in-arab-christians-murder-some-see-deadly-american-cultural-tensions-53040/


Crowdfunding campaign raises money to seek justice for slain Lebanese-American
http://stepfeed.com/more-categories/big-news/crowdfunding-campaign-raises-money-slain-lebanese-american/


Bigoted Man Calls Neighbor ‘Dirty Arab’, Shoots Him to Death
http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/08/194476/bigoted-man-calls-neighbor-dirty-arab-shoots-him-to-death/


Years of race insults preceded slaying of Lebanese neighbor
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/years-of-race-insults-preceded-slaying-of-lebanese-neighbor/2016/08/19/98809700-6647-11e6-b4d8-33e931b5a26d_story.html


Hundreds Attend Christian Funeral Of Slain Arab-American Man
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/khalid-jabara-funeral_us_57b73c35e4b00d9c3a175d8c


Hillary Clinton Shares Letter About Murder Victim
http://www.attn.com/stories/10833/hillary-clinton-shares-letter-about-murder-victim-khalid-jabara


Police chief defends officers' decision to leave neighbor's 'suspicious activity' call minutes before homicide
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/police-chief-defends-officers-decision-to-leave-neighbor-s-suspicious/article_a5c10bcd-207e-545f-896e-bae5bc443255.html


Christian funeral planned for Arab-American slain in alleged hate crime
https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/christian-funeral-planned-arab-american-slain-alleged-hate-crime


Court records document anger of homicide suspect toward Lebanese family
https://www.readfrontier.com/investigation/court-records-document-anger-of-homicide-suspect-toward-lebanese-family/


Oklahoma Christian Man Khalid Jabara Killed By Neighbor Who Called Him ‘Dirty Mooslem’
http://www.inquisitr.com/3431320/oklahoma-christian-man-khalid-jabara-killed-by-neighbor-who-called-him-dirty-mooslem-video/






Thanks for nothing Vashta....It's unfortunate a piece of smile moved here from California 4 years ago to continue his racist hate....But you don't have the balls to comment on that....Because of your own spam fest against the cops....


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: rebound on August 20, 2016, 04:00:56 pm
"...making him open the door...."

How would you accomplish that? Crash the door? Remember, so far its just an asshat behaving badly. I guess they could have surrounded the house and communicated with bull horns. Other than taking the younger man into protective custody I'm not sure what else could have been done by the officers.

I don't know, but what I would like somebody on here who has some legal knowledge to comment is how/if the restraining order factors into this.   And how doe that order, combined with his previous actions, escalate this incident to the point that that the police could have demanded that he submit to questioning.   It's just frustrating.  We have a guy that is obviously unstable, who is already out on bail for an assault on the family, and under a restraining order, that has been identified again by the family as (probably) the person who was tapping on their window, and when the police show up to investigate refuses to answer the door (but calls 911 while the police are at the door to complain?). 

I guess my question is when does the guy, based on his behavior, etc, get elevated from asshat, to legitimately dangerous?   To me, he was well past that point, but (and I can't believe I'm saying this...) I agree with breadburner that their hands may be tied, and the bulk of the blame is on the judge.   



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: AquaMan on August 20, 2016, 04:46:33 pm
CF or Cynical or some lawyer, can you respond? I agree, its a feeling of helplessness when you know the guy is imbalanced, has made threats, has a restraining order and still, nothing seems to stop him.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 20, 2016, 07:10:52 pm
I'll try.

Remember that hindsight is always 20-20. Compared to most of their peers, TPD officers are well-educated and well-trained, but they are still caught in the heat of the moment and have to make decisions based on incomplete and contradictory information, decisions that the rest of us can disassemble and analyze at our leisure after the fact. This is technical, and as usual, long-winded.

First, Majors had already been in custody on a felony charge of A&B with a deadly weapon from the earlier incident involving Khalid's mother. His bond was subsequently reduced over the objections of the DA's office but was later increased. Majors was out on bond. A protective order had previously been entered and was the basis of earlier charges against Majors. Note that witnesses endorsed on a Complaint and Information in a criminal case are also protected from threats and harassment by statute. Nothing in the call Khalid made that day indicated that he or his family had at that time been threatened, though because of past events they no doubt had reasonable concerns about what could happen. As it turns out, those concerns may have interfered.

According to the timeline and article published in today's Tulsa World, Khalid reported to the dispatcher that Majors had assaulted his (Majors') own husband and had fired a gun in his own house, neither of which amounted to a violation of the Jabaris' protective order against Majors nor a felony offense. Then, when the dispatcher asked if he wanted to speak to an officer, Khalid declined, wanting to remain anonymous. However understandable that was, it prevented a more effective response by the police because not only do the statutes provide that an officer can arrest someone without a warrant for a misdemeanor only if the crime is committed in the officer's presence, an arrest warrant can not be obtained based on an anonymous report. An exception to the rule that warrantless arrests on misdemeanor charges can be made only if the crime was committed in the officer's presence exists for violations of protective orders, but based on today's article, it doesn't appear that in his phone call Khalid reported any action by Majors against him or a member of the Jabara family, so the general rule still holds. Based on the information Khalid provided to the dispatcher, no arrest could be made unless Majors did something in the officer's presence.

The mental health law might have been of more help, though merely being "imbalanced" isn't grounds for emergency detention. An officer can take a person into emergency custody if he or she meets the definition of a "Person requiring treatment."  43A O.S. Sec. 103.13.a. defines a person requiring treatment as follows:

"Person requiring treatment" means a person who because of his or her mental illness or drug or alcohol dependency:

(1) poses a substantial risk of immediate physical harm to self as manifested by evidence or serious threats of or attempts at suicide or other significant self-inflicted bodily harm,

(2) poses a substantial risk of immediate physical harm to another person or persons as manifested by evidence of violent behavior directed toward another person or persons,

(3) has placed another person or persons in a reasonable fear of violent behavior directed towards such person or persons or serious physical harm to them as manifested by serious and immediate threats,

(4) is in a condition of severe deterioration such that, without immediate intervention, there exists a substantial risk that severe impairment or injury will result to the person, or

(5) poses a substantial risk of immediate serious physical injury to self or death as manifested by evidence that the person is unable to provide for and is not providing for his or her basic physical needs.

Given Majors' history of threats and an actual felony assault, a police officer would have been justified in taking him into emergency custody under the 2nd and 3rd subsections above. Law enforcement is reluctant to do that because they get stuck with the detainee through a pre-screening process that takes time. The fact that criminal charges were already pending is also a disincentive to commence mental health proceedings that are essentially civil in nature. Hindsight tells us that this option, being the only one available, should have been tried.

CF or Cynical or some lawyer, can you respond? I agree, its a feeling of helplessness when you know the guy is imbalanced, has made threats, has a restraining order and still, nothing seems to stop him.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Breadburner on August 20, 2016, 09:03:08 pm
Should have been in jail...This is all on the judge...There are people in jail (prison)  for violations of protective orders that did a lot less than this...


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2016, 10:23:54 pm
Cynical, wouldn’t a shot fired in the city limits, or at least a report of be enough basis for a search warrant?  It sounds like Schmauss, Majors’ husband was just as afraid of this guy as the Jabaras were.

Bill LaFortune is going to have to live with this on his conscience.  He was the judge who allowed Majors to walk.  After spending a few hours reading what little any of us can access on OSCN, I cannot imagine any scenario that a rational judge could have allowed him to bond out.  His felony warrant for jumping bond from California shows up there.  That would indicate that a district court in Oklahoma likely has better access to public records than we do and he would have been aware of his previous behavior in California. Turns out, the California case seems to be due to similar behavior.

I’ve heard this murder called a hate crime, an example of why we need more gun control, and every other explanation possible other than the one that really screams out: Vernon Majors suffers from a severe and dangerous mental illness but no one wants to deal with it or prevent this from happening because they are worried about the rights of the mentally ill.  All indications with Majors point to something like this eventually happening.  If running over Mrs. Jabara and leaving her for dead was not indication enough, what was?

What judge in their right mind would allow a $60,000 bond for someone to be let out of jail only to move right back next door to the victim he was accused of trying to kill in the first place?  LaFortune needs to be removed from the bench.  This shows one of two things: either a terribly poor lack of judgement, if LaFortune knew the facts or he simply did not bother to review the case files on the previous assault as well as this guy’s history in California in the first place.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 20, 2016, 11:24:48 pm

What judge in their right mind would allow a $60,000 bond for someone to be let out of jail only to move right back next door to the victim he was accused of trying to kill in the first place?  LaFortune needs to be removed from the bench.  This shows one of two things: either a terribly poor lack of judgement, if LaFortune knew the facts or he simply did not bother to review the case files on the previous assault as well as this guy’s history in California in the first place.


I am under the impression that if his bond jumping and other cases in California had been adjudicated, that they can't be taken into consideration for any future case? I remember serving jury duty in Tulsa County in the 90's that a previous arrest and conviction on an unrelated matter was not allowed as evidence for the case that was being tried. It was a civil case, and one attorney was trying to show a pattern of behavior, and the judge would not allow it. Does this also apply here as to why he was given a chance to bail/bond out?

I have my thoughts on LaFortune after dealing with him in family court 20 some years ago, and most of it I can't say in public, but suffice it to say, I never voted to retain him when I lived there.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: AquaMan on August 21, 2016, 08:22:05 am
Thank you Cynical for the explanation. Pretty complicated stuff for an officer to have to sort out on site. One can understand their hesitance to arrest, but the judge screwed up. He underestimated the situation and the violent nature of the guy.

Why on earth would his husband who already feared for his own safety and the sanity of this guy bond him out?


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2016, 10:01:07 am
This is one reason I've always been frustrated with the system. We in the U.S. have very complicated rules about arrests, search and seizure (does anyone know what "exigent circumstances" means and how to apply it?  When is time sufficient to get a warrant?), and questioning of suspects, so complicated that justices of the SOCUS disagree about what they are and how they apply in specific situations. We require law officers, who often have only a high school education plus the mandatory CLEET hours, to get it right, lest the exclusionary rule, hated by law enforcement everywhere, gut a case in which they "know" that the defendant is guilty. Many years ago I had a conversation with Chuck Jordan when he was a patrol officer about the exclusionary rule. He felt that the right to bring a civil action for deprivation of constitutional rights was sufficient to remedy the problem without letting bad guys off the hook. He didn't understand the arcane rule of "qualified immunity," that kills most civil rights cases at the very beginning. So we have a criminal procedure culture with gaps everywhere. But we always know after the fact what should have been done, though we often disagree about what we know.

The TPD at least requires its officers to have a bachelor's degree and to complete an academy training program much more complete than basic
CLEET certification.

Thank you Cynical for the explanation. Pretty complicated stuff for an officer to have to sort out on site. One can understand their hesitance to arrest, but the judge screwed up. He underestimated the situation and the violent nature of the guy.

Why on earth would his husband who already feared for his own safety and the sanity of this guy bond him out?


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2016, 10:04:21 am
Punishment for felony charges in Oklahoma are enhanced if the crime was committed after former conviction of a felony ("AFCF"). The former conviction has to have been imposed within ten years before the commission of the new offense. There's also a limitation when the out-of-state felony would not be a felony under Oklahoma law. I don't recall the specifics off hand and don't want to do the research.

I am under the impression that if his bond jumping and other cases in California had been adjudicated, that they can't be taken into consideration for any future case? I remember serving jury duty in Tulsa County in the 90's that a previous arrest and conviction on an unrelated matter was not allowed as evidence for the case that was being tried. It was a civil case, and one attorney was trying to show a pattern of behavior, and the judge would not allow it. Does this also apply here as to why he was given a chance to bail/bond out?

I have my thoughts on LaFortune after dealing with him in family court 20 some years ago, and most of it I can't say in public, but suffice it to say, I never voted to retain him when I lived there.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 21, 2016, 10:10:44 am
Punishment for felony charges in Oklahoma are enhanced if the crime was committed after former conviction of a felony ("AFCF"). The former conviction has to have been imposed within ten years before the commission of the new offense. There's also a limitation when the out-of-state felony would not be a felony under Oklahoma law. I don't recall the specifics off hand and don't want to do the research.


Thanks cynical it does answer my question/thought. No need to deep research it.



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2016, 10:12:35 am
It would have taken time and more problematically would have involved a confidential informant (Khalid) with whom the officer had no prior experience and therefore couldn't claim was reliable. Search warrants are issued on probable cause. Probable cause can be based on a confidential informant's information only when there is a track record of the informant providing reliable information in the past. You'll see such things constantly in drug busts because the same officers are working all of the drug investigations and have ongoing relationships with the informants. As many times as you read about the police fudging the facts, allow them to get search warrants by reciting that they had heard from an anonymous source that shots were fired without more, and none of us are safe. No one in this case apparently went on the record until it was too late.

Cynical, wouldn’t a shot fired in the city limits, or at least a report of be enough basis for a search warrant?  It sounds like Schmauss, Majors’ husband was just as afraid of this guy as the Jabaras were.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: patric on August 21, 2016, 12:33:08 pm

Thanks for nothing Vashta....It's unfortunate a piece of smile moved here from California 4 years ago to continue his racist hate....But you don't have the balls to comment on that....Because of your own spam fest against the cops....

Hey thin-skin, I was the one who posted the links, and I did so without judgement or comment. 
The result has been a civil, necessary and informative discussion (with one exception).

The point being, Im as aghast as anyone else as to not only how "the system" failed this badly, but how far and wide the implications are.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2016, 06:23:15 pm
It would have taken time and more problematically would have involved a confidential informant (Khalid) with whom the officer had no prior experience and therefore couldn't claim was reliable. Search warrants are issued on probable cause. Probable cause can be based on a confidential informant's information only when there is a track record of the informant providing reliable information in the past. You'll see such things constantly in drug busts because the same officers are working all of the drug investigations and have ongoing relationships with the informants. As many times as you read about the police fudging the facts, allow them to get search warrants by reciting that they had heard from an anonymous source that shots were fired without more, and none of us are safe. No one in this case apparently went on the record until it was too late.


Okay, a couple of thoughts here.  Had Schmauss phoned in the shot fired to the TPD there would have been probable cause since he was the co-occupant of the house, right?  Sounds like a wasted opportunity calling Khalid instead of the TPD.

If a neighbor had heard a gunshot inside the home and reported it, does that not rise to probable cause for the police to make sure no one was injured?

I suspect Schmauss must suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or something similar.  He sounded like a kindly old man who just wanted companionship or thought he could help others.  Unfortunately, he would almost certainly have had to be the person who put up bond money to get Majors out of the stir.  In doing so, he put his own life as well as that of his neighbor at risk. 

If you look at the Assessor’s web site, Schmauss and Majors QC’d the deed to their home back and forth a few times, I suspect hiding assets for one reason or another. 

To Dback: I can see where a case from another jurisdiction may not be considered during an actual jury trial, but in a bond hearing, it’s simply the judge, prosecution and defense.  If Oklahoma law would not allow felony convictions in other states to be considered when refusing or setting bond, perhaps that law needs to be revisited.

There is one immutable truth here: If Vernon Majors were still in the DL Moss, Khalid Jabara would not have been shot to death by him.  Bill LaFortune had the ultimate say on Vernon Majors being released. 

Is it possible for a recall petition for a District Judge?  LaFortune clearly screwed up here.  He wasn’t a stellar prosecutor nor mayor.  I’m seeing a pattern.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2016, 07:43:53 pm
I'll repeat. No one went on the record with the police about shots fired. The police will respond, but if they don't witness anything and no one is willing to give a statement, their hands are tied. No named informant, no search warrant, unless the confidential informant has a history of providing reliable information.

Also, there is no recall provided under Oklahoma election law. Public officials can be removed from office for various kinds of misconduct by a court after a grand jury report calls for removal from office. There is a trial. Judges can be removed for cause by the Court on the Judiciary. I guarantee that your disagreement with LaFortune's judgment does not rise to the level required for removal from office. He stands for re-election at some point. That is when he can be removed.


If a neighbor had heard a gunshot inside the home and reported it, does that not rise to probable cause for the police to make sure no one was injured?

* * *

Is it possible for a recall petition for a District Judge?  LaFortune clearly screwed up here.  He wasn’t a stellar prosecutor nor mayor.  I’m seeing a pattern.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2016, 08:27:39 pm
I'll repeat. No one went on the record with the police about shots fired. The police will respond, but if they don't witness anything and no one is willing to give a statement, their hands are tied. No named informant, no search warrant, unless the confidential informant has a history of providing reliable information.

Also, there is no recall provided under Oklahoma election law. Public officials can be removed from office for various kinds of misconduct by a court after a grand jury report calls for removal from office. There is a trial. Judges can be removed for cause by the Court on the Judiciary. I guarantee that your disagreement with LaFortune's judgment does not rise to the level required for removal from office. He stands for re-election at some point. That is when he can be removed.


Cynical, thank you for your reply. Sorry if I missed something in your original post regarding a shots fired call.  Perhaps no one in this case went on record on the shot fired. My question was in regards to if a neighbor of or occupant of the home where the shot was fired said there was a shot fired, I was wondering if that would give enough probable cause (i.e. going into hypothetical, not this particular situation if you will indulge me.) for intervention.

There were probably people after Eric Harris was killed saying there was no reason or no way Stanley Glanz would be removed from office as a result.  Glanz had nothing to do with the killing, but we finally got a glimpse of how sloppy his management and judgement had become as a public servant who had become really removed from the aspect of public safety.  He had obviously begun to take his position as a trusted public official for granted.

I believe there’s a case to say the same thing about Bill LaFortune.

Perhaps a grand jury investigation might expose LaFortune to some much-needed self-examinination that would lead him to step down.  No matter how you slice it, Vernon Majors being in the position of being able to murder his neighbor was ultimately LaFortune’s call.  I hope this doesn’t die a slow death in the national media as a "hate crime" when the reason Khalid Jabara is dead is far more complicated than this and actually does begin in front of Judge LaFortune’s bench.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2016, 09:33:56 pm
Conan, you're missing a couple of points that may be hard to pick out of all of the verbiage I tend to scatter around.

1. Without shots being fired in the presence of the officer or someone who heard the shots being willing to sign a statement to that effect, there will be no arrest, warrantless or otherwise, and no search, warrantless or otherwise. The reason they go out on calls like that is to see what's happening. If everything is quiet by that time and no one wants to sign a statement about what happened, they turn around and go back to the office. We really don't want the police breaking down doors based on an anonymous phone call, do we?

2. The procedures for removing a judge are fundamentally different than those for removing a sheriff. The in the Eric Harris case, the grand jury found cause to bring an ouster accusation based on specific instances of misconduct by the sheriff that transcended any disagreements about what happened to Eric Harris. There are specific grounds listed in the statutes governing ousters.

For judges, the grounds for removal are stated in the Constitution, Art. 7A, Sec. 1. Cause for removal from office shall be: Gross neglect of duty; corruption in office; habitual drunkenness; commission while in office of any offense involving moral turpitude; gross partiality in office; oppression in office; or other grounds as may be specified hereafter by the legislature.

The legislature has not added any grounds to those provided in Art. 7A, Sec.1. None of the grounds given in this section cover LaFortune's decision to reduce and then alter increase the bail for Majors. Gross neglect of duty doesn't mean making decisions that in hindsight look wrong. It covers things like failing to show up, or showing up and spending all of one's time viewing computer porn rather than trying and deciding cases. You get the idea. I have known judges who fell far behind in deciding cases they had taken "under advisement." Very far behind at times. They weren't removed from office, but were given a nudge by the presiding judge in the district. Judges make decisions. I've known some of those decisions to result in terrible tragedy and were controversial because of that, but they were made in good faith based on the judge's view of the evidence in the case.

Cynical, thank you for your reply. Sorry if I missed something in your original post regarding a shots fired call.  Perhaps no one in this case went on record on the shot fired. My question was in regards to if a neighbor of or occupant of the home where the shot was fired said there was a shot fired, I was wondering if that would give enough probable cause (i.e. going into hypothetical, not this particular situation if you will indulge me.) for intervention.

There were probably people after Eric Harris was killed saying there was no reason or no way Stanley Glanz would be removed from office as a result.  Glanz had nothing to do with the killing, but we finally got a glimpse of how sloppy his management and judgement had become as a public servant who had become really removed from the aspect of public safety.  He had obviously begun to take his position as a trusted public official for granted.

I believe there’s a case to say the same thing about Bill LaFortune.

Perhaps a grand jury investigation might expose LaFortune to some much-needed self-examinination that would lead him to step down.  No matter how you slice it, Vernon Majors being in the position of being able to murder his neighbor was ultimately LaFortune’s call.  I hope this doesn’t die a slow death in the national media as a "hate crime" when the reason Khalid Jabara is dead is far more complicated than this and actually does begin in front of Judge LaFortune’s bench.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: rebound on August 22, 2016, 07:04:03 am
Cynical,  thanks for all the information.  It's still very frustrating, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain the situation at length. 


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 22, 2016, 07:33:15 am
Great comments Cynical.  I'd like to try to add to it.

1) While they drive around all the time, in reality the police are like the fire department, they respond when something has already happened. The fire department can't go into your kitchen because they think there will be a fire. The police can't interfere with your neighbor because they think there might be an assault. Someone has to report a fire or they have to see smoke.

2) As a practical matter, Police can arrest anyone at any time; but if they arrest when no prosecution is really possible they get some grief, the DA gets grief, and the City may get sued. As Cynical pointed out, with the items actually reported and the witnesses actually available, prosecution would have been nearly impossible. "Shots fired" may draw an officer to your area, but if there is no witness... there is no arrest. That isn't the police officer's fault. Sometimes police will sense a situation is so dangerous they will make an arrest just to clear the air with the understanding that the minor charge probably won't be prosecuted, but I understand that is becoming more rare as police scrutiny increases.

3) The police may have been able to use a mental health hold, but that is an enormous pain in the donkey and expensive. Tulsa usually has to drive such holds to Stillwater (full prisoner transport) for the hold because we lack basic facilities for mental health. If an officer is transporting someone, they aren't available for any other work. Simple numbers game I'm afraid, and that isn't the police officer's fault.

and

4) John Q public has no clue what bond is used for. The primary purpose of requiring a bond is to ensure the defendant shows up to face his charges. The secondary purpose of "protecting the public" was added much later (1984 in Federal law) and is, frankly, a farce (requiring someone to post more money doesn't protect the public from anyone but poor people. If they are so dangerous then bail can be denied).  Americans have had a Constitutional right to be free from excessive bail for as long as we've had freedom of speech.

It's also important to note that the defendant is accused of committing a crime when dragged before a court for bail. In the eyes of the Court, the Defendant should have a 50/50 shot at worst (reality is far different than this impartial fantasy land). Bond prevents a person who is innocent until proven guilty from serving time.

In this instance, the judge makes 100 bail decisions a week (if not a day). $300,000 bail is fairly close to just denying bail for most people and would be challenged as excessive. While an assault with a vehicle could qualify as an offense for which bond could be denied, that would be unlikely unless the individual had a violent history. This judge could (and maybe has) set bail at $30k for similar offenses 10,000 times and everything worked out fine. One time it goes bad (really bad) and the public is happy to look back and say "clearly should have denied bond." Unfortunately, the judge can't look at the next defendant and say "this went bad one time, so I'm going to violate your rights because some bigoted moron abused his constitutional rights."

The system failed because some crazy bigot decided to murder his neighbor. Our justice system is designed to catch and punish people who commit crimes. It is not designed to prevent crime, it is not designed to identify and treat people with violent mental health issues, and it isn't designed to arbitrate disputes between neighbors... even where one is violently ill. A crime was committed, the guilty party was quickly apprehended and is in jail. The system works.  :-\

This is not to belittle the tragedy or say things couldn't have been done differently, but I don't think there is anything that makes it fair to point in hindsight and say "you messed up."



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2016, 08:33:12 am
CF and Cynical, thank you for adding in your input.

There’s no disagreement that police work, for the most part, is reactive.

As CF knows, I had personal experience with a mentally ill next door neighbor and we had to call the cops out several times due to her bizarre and sometimes threatening behavior.  What CF said about what happens when they are called out on a mental case is spot-on.  Basically, the PD would stay around until they were reasonably certain the situation had been defused, and we had a paper trail if she were ever to harm anyone on my property or damaged our property.  I get that they cannot simply cuff someone and haul them away.

If there was no one to talk to the cops on the record about the reputed shot fired, I understand why they couldn’t do anything.  Without them being there to witness it and there were no witnesses willing to talk, it is as if it never happened.  If Majors’ husband was unwilling to tell the cops he was in fear for his own life or that of the neighbors, I get that they simply could not bust down the door with guns blazing.

What I keep getting stuck on is there was an obvious history of domestic disturbances between these two families which clearly was escalating.  The Jabaras had a PO against Majors.  Majors had a PO against Khalid.  Majors had been arrested and extradited to California to finish serving out a sentence ostensibly for similar activities when he lived there.

These are things which certainly would have been known by the DA’s office if the average citizen can access those records and I would assume had been argued before the judge in getting Majors locked up without bond for eight months in the first place after he ran over Mrs. Jabara and left her for dead.  Could finally getting some sort of bond really have been because all the sudden Majors had finally gotten a stud attorney who was capable of doing so?

I simply want to know what was going through the judge’s head when he finally decided it was all the sudden safe to release someone with zero conditions back next door to the people who had a PO against him.  It appeared from what evidence has been talked about publicly that when Majors ran over Mrs. Jabara, he clearly had targeted her and it was intentional.  As a secondary issue, he was also drunk at the time.  He was obviously a hazard if not to society as a whole, most certainly his next door neighbors.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2016, 08:50:49 am
Cynical, wouldn’t a shot fired in the city limits, or at least a report of be enough basis for a search warrant?  It sounds like Schmauss, Majors’ husband was just as afraid of this guy as the Jabaras were.

Bill LaFortune is going to have to live with this on his conscience.  He was the judge who allowed Majors to walk.  After spending a few hours reading what little any of us can access on OSCN, I cannot imagine any scenario that a rational judge could have allowed him to bond out.  His felony warrant for jumping bond from California shows up there.  That would indicate that a district court in Oklahoma likely has better access to public records than we do and he would have been aware of his previous behavior in California. Turns out, the California case seems to be due to similar behavior.



Breadburner is right on - this is another Tulsa County Judge fail.  Only this time someone was killed!  It appears to be endemic to the courthouse.  dbacksfan touched on the concept of "pattern of behavior" in a reply - absolutely dead on!!   We have judges that engage in this pattern of behavior and yet, we keep on electing them.... or not un-electing them!


The outcomes were different, only through pure blind luck, but Judge Glassco and DA's office let Mark Allen Eaton off with even less bail when he just tried to kill a couple of kids!!






Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2016, 08:54:27 am
Hey thin-skin, I was the one who posted the links, and I did so without judgement or comment. 
The result has been a civil, necessary and informative discussion (with one exception).

The point being, Im as aghast as anyone else as to not only how "the system" failed this badly, but how far and wide the implications are.

See my post above....


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: patric on August 22, 2016, 09:08:50 am

4) John Q public has no clue what bond is used for. The primary purpose of requiring a bond is to ensure the defendant shows up to face his charges. The secondary purpose of "protecting the public" was added much later (1984 in Federal law) and is, frankly, a farce (requiring someone to post more money doesn't protect the public from anyone but poor people. If they are so dangerous then bail can be denied).  Americans have had a Constitutional right to be free from excessive bail for as long as we've had freedom of speech


You have probably seen this in recent news:

“Hundreds of thousands of human beings are held in American cages every night solely because they are too poor to make a payment,” Karakatsanis said. “Today’s amicus filings of support by a wide range of groups, including the Department of Justice, takes us closer to finally eradicating poverty jailing from American society.”  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doj-american-bail-industry_us_57b727bde4b03d513687f5e8

...which does seem to recognize that bail functions more as a privilege of wealth than a right, and in some cases is a form of punishment without benefit of a conviction.  The million-dollar bonds in Waco, Texas come to mind, where 170-ish people who were no more than witnesses to a crime were offered lower bail if they agreed to surrender their rights.

In all, Im not seeing one single solution that just jumps out.  Certainly we need better mechanisms to deal with mental health; you would think that would be a given in a city this size, but we would have to pay for it.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: erfalf on August 22, 2016, 09:28:36 am
You have probably seen this in recent news:

“Hundreds of thousands of human beings are held in American cages every night solely because they are too poor to make a payment,” Karakatsanis said. “Today’s amicus filings of support by a wide range of groups, including the Department of Justice, takes us closer to finally eradicating poverty jailing from American society.”  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doj-american-bail-industry_us_57b727bde4b03d513687f5e8

...which does seem to recognize that bail functions more as a privilege of wealth than a right, and in some cases is a form of punishment without benefit of a conviction.  The million-dollar bonds in Waco, Texas come to mind, where 170-ish people who were no more than witnesses to a crime were offered lower bail if they agreed to surrender their rights.

In all, Im not seeing one single solution that just jumps out.  Certainly we need better mechanisms to deal with mental health; you would think that would be a given in a city this size, but we would have to pay for it.

So in other words, their damned if they do, and if they don't. What an envious position.

I'm not trying to shed the blame, but it is a difficult line to balance on, especially when it's as vague as the law can be.

Tragic things happen every day. I feel for the family, and it certainly seems unjust.

I just have a feeling that the same people complaining about how justice was miscarried here, would also be complaining about excessive use of the law to detain people (ie drugs anyone). They would then be over stepping their bounds.

All that being said, I still don't know enough about this particular case to make a factual based opinion on what should or should not have happened, although I am quite certain it is not black and white.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 22, 2016, 09:32:19 am
Breadburner is right on - this is another Tulsa County Judge fail.  Only this time someone was killed!  It appears to be endemic to the courthouse.  dbacksfan touched on the concept of "pattern of behavior" in a reply - absolutely dead on!!   We have judges that engage in this pattern of behavior and yet, we keep on electing them.... or not un-electing them!

The outcomes were different, only through pure blind luck, but Judge Glassco and DA's office let Mark Allen Eaton off with even less bail when he just tried to kill a couple of kids!!

This is great rhetoric, but what you appear to be proposing is just locking people up accused of a crime without regard to the 8th Amendment. Or, are you saying that you would be better able to make such determinations than people who do this for a living? It is exactly what I was talking about.

This Mark Eaton you referenced appears to have been before Glassco for pointing a gun at people and carrying a firearm while intoxicate, not attempted murder. His bond for that was $25k. Which he posted, and was out on bond for the duration of the proceedings without incident. He got a ten year deferred. In other words, you would have had him locked up for the 16 months it took to finalize his case while he was sentenced to no time served. So in your example, the "pattern of behavior" worked exactly as the Framers of the Constitution wanted it to.

http://www.oscn.net/dockets/Results.aspx?db=tulsa&number=&lname=eaton&fname=mark&mname=&DoBMin=&DoBMax=&partytype=&apct=&dcct=&FiledDateL=&FiledDateH=&ClosedDateL=&ClosedDateH=&iLC=&iLCType=&iYear=&iNumber=&citation=

Then, of course, there is the practical side: There are 136,000 arrests per year in Oklahoma (https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/2013%20Crime%20Report.pdf). Each arrests takes from a year to two years to clear. Oklahoma's total prisoner population is about 28,000  (http://nicic.gov/statestats/?st=ok)(prisons and jails). It costs We the People $55 per day to house inmates at David L. Moss. If the State of Oklahoma just adopted your policy of denying bail we'd get to add $4,000,000,000.00 per year to our jail budget (136000*1.5*365*55), pretending we could house more prisoners than the State of California.

Of course it wouldn't be that high for a number of reasons. But I like to think its because unlike the judges who actually have to do this job, the arm chair QBs would all know the right defendants to let out on bail and which ones you could Constitutionally detain. It's a pipe dream of a balancing act that just isn't really there to be had. The Criminal docket is a mess and yes, things are missed. But cutting the Court's funding and lambasting judges that are left certainly doesn't help (HEY! YOU! Do a better job. By the way, do that better job with an increased docket because we are cutting your funding, oh, and less staff to. YOU DO BETTER NOW!). I'm not saying we would have had a different outcome, but certainly a lower caseload and more staff would allow judges to actually spend time looking at each case instead of constantly trying to keep their head above water (most because they are trying to do a good job, but there are some slacker judges).

Clearly, in this case, the system did not protect the Khalid family. The reasons are legion and easy to list. The solution(s), not so much.
- - -

Patric -

The mental health debate is real, but it is also used as a "pass the buck" or scapegoat when convenient. However, Tulsa County is putting real money into a new mental health program at David L. Moss. I really hope we see a return on this investment - people that really need mental health treatment will be cheaper to treat than to just arrest, release, repeat until they finally hit the big time. I really hope it saves us money (ignoring the humanitarian aspect of it).
.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2016, 09:54:09 am
This is great rhetoric, but what you appear to be proposing is just locking people up accused of a crime without regard to the 8th Amendment. Or, are you saying that you would be better able to make such determinations than people who do this for a living? It is exactly what I was talking about.

This Mark Eaton you referenced appears to have been before Glassco for pointing a gun at people and carrying a firearm while intoxicate, not attempted murder. His bond for that was $25k. Which he posted, and was out on bond for the duration of the proceedings without incident. He got a ten year deferred. In other words, you would have had him locked up for the 16 months it took to finalize his case while he was sentenced to no time served. So in your example, the "pattern of behavior" worked exactly as the Framers of the Constitution wanted it to.

http://www.oscn.net/dockets/Results.aspx?db=tulsa&number=&lname=eaton&fname=mark&mname=&DoBMin=&DoBMax=&partytype=&apct=&dcct=&FiledDateL=&FiledDateH=&ClosedDateL=&ClosedDateH=&iLC=&iLCType=&iYear=&iNumber=&citation=

Then, of course, there is the practical side: There are 136,000 arrests per year in Oklahoma (https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/2013%20Crime%20Report.pdf). Each arrests takes from a year to two years to clear. Oklahoma's total prisoner population is about 28,000  (http://nicic.gov/statestats/?st=ok)(prisons and jails). It costs We the People $55 per day to house inmates at David L. Moss. If the State of Oklahoma just adopted your policy of denying bail we'd get to add $4,000,000,000.00 per year to our jail budget (136000*1.5*365*55), pretending we could house more prisoners than the State of California.

Of course it wouldn't be that high for a number of reasons. But I like to think its because unlike the judges who actually have to do this job, the arm chair QBs would all know the right defendants to let out on bail and which ones you could Constitutionally detain. It's a pipe dream of a balancing act that just isn't really there to be had. The Criminal docket is a mess and yes, things are missed. But cutting the Court's funding and lambasting judges that are left certainly doesn't help (HEY! YOU! Do a better job. By the way, do that better job with an increased docket because we are cutting your funding, oh, and less staff to. YOU DO BETTER NOW!). I'm not saying we would have had a different outcome, but certainly a lower caseload and more staff would allow judges to actually spend time looking at each case instead of constantly trying to keep their head above water (most because they are trying to do a good job, but there are some slacker judges).

Clearly, in this case, the system did not protect the Khalid family. The reasons are legion and easy to list. The solution(s), not so much.
- - -

Patric -

The mental health debate is real, but it is also used as a "pass the buck" or scapegoat when convenient. However, Tulsa County is putting real money into a new mental health program at David L. Moss. I really hope we see a return on this investment - people that really need mental health treatment will be cheaper to treat than to just arrest, release, repeat until they finally hit the big time. I really hope it saves us money (ignoring the humanitarian aspect of it).



Feloniously pointing firearm.

Which in the police reports, and by witness testimony - he took his assault rifle (SKS), pointed it at two kids across the street, pulled the bolt back to load the chamber, aimed, then pulled the trigger.  Also from police report he was "gonna clean up the neighborhood..."   Whatever that means.  And while I am not a fan of cigarette smoking, that is what the kids were doing - sitting in their car for a smoke break because their family wouldn't allow smoking in the house.

All that "court stuff" is straightforward and went pretty much as expected.  Then took a turn.

He plead guilty.  Both counts.  SHOULD have been end of story - Guilty with appropriate sentencing.  Which would have included, AT A MINIMUM, revocation of concealed carry license and $1,000 fine.  And if criminal sentence, would (should) have been not less than 1 year nor more than 10 years in prison.

I suspect the family would be less appalled at this if he had even gotten the minimum - revocation of concealed carry.  There is so much gun control stuff spewing around that when a REAL case of a person NOT being suitable for the license gets this kind of kid-glove treatment and doesn't lose that privilege, it shows the whole system for the bias that it has.  Judge Glassco and DA Tim Harris office cut this sweet little deal for someone who obviously had connections.  (I have heard of a "social conscience" lawyer around town named Gary Eaton and have wondered if he is related?)  Anyway, Glassco basically said, no, I won't accept your guilty plea since the DA and I and perhaps some of his buddies are enjoying the benefit of the good ole boy system....

I bet if the situation were reversed, the poor people in that little neighborhood would not have enjoyed such a boon.  And if I were ever in need of a defense lawyer, I would certainly try to do the same - get it routed through that path!!  Sweet deal !!

http://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/2014/title-21/section-21-1289.16

http://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/2014/title-21/section-21-1289.17

.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2016, 10:01:55 am
This kinda points out the problem we have that we don't differentiate between violent criminals and non-violent...how many of the current batch of prisoners are non-violent simple possession prisoners (I hear numbers from 15% to 40%...Any % is ridiculous.) and how much room would there be for truly violent offenders if we stopped housing people who are not dangerous?




Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 22, 2016, 11:56:06 am
All that "court stuff" is straightforward and went pretty much as expected.  Then took a turn.

He plead guilty.  Both counts.  SHOULD have been end of story - Guilty with appropriate sentencing.  Which would have included, AT A MINIMUM, revocation of concealed carry license and $1,000 fine.  And if criminal sentence, would (should) have been not less than 1 year nor more than 10 years in prison.

Actually, no. This didn't take a turn at all, it went exactly as most criminal cases do. An accusation was made, an officer investigated and made an arrest, the DA brought charges, they were negotiated and plead. There is no strange turn here, that's what happens in 85+% of criminal charges.

And take the guilty plea with a grain of salt. Nearly everyone who makes a deal has to plead guilty and has to admit they are pleading guilty because they are guilty, otherwise, no deal. Face 10 years in prison, or say you are guilty and get slapped on the wrist. I'm not saying the guy was innocent, but the guilty please is, unfortunately, not indicative of the truth of the matter asserted.

Furthermore, a conviction wasn't a forgone conclusion. Presumably, the evidence in favor of the state was testimony of minors. This guy would have told a different story. And a jury could believe the kids and still believe that the defendant had "lawful justification" or otherwise decide he was overcharged or a witness doesn't show up or... there's a reason the State gave him a deal and walked away. Even if the State had a rock solid case, a plea is almost always on the table. And this plea didn't look out of the ordinary.

And the judge generally has zero input on a "deal." His job is to have the DA present the deal and ask the Defendant if he has accepted the deal, then approve it or reject it. If you want to allege that a sitting judge is corrupt, show some evidence. What you have shown thus far is that you are unfamiliar with how the criminal courts really works. When it doesn't work in a manner you agree with, it must be corrupt. Or so says Donald Trump.  (over the line?)

I suspect you are personally invested in this case for some reason.

Also--- this Mark Eaton didn't get in more trouble (there are two Mark Eatons, one is born in the 1950s and appears to have a drug problem, the one you appear to be discussing is born in the 1980s).  The Mark Eaton we are discussing seems to be 6 years into a 10 year Court supervision and has not gotten in any more trouble.  I don't know this guy and the only reason I looked it up is this post - so substitute Defendant Dave for this guy all you want... just an example.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2016, 02:38:04 pm
I am perhaps a bit less perturbed with LaFortune after reading this.  It seems the assistant DA also had a clumsy part in this.  LaFortune admitted to not being really familiar with the history between the two families and he was in a hurry to get on to a jury trial that was awaiting him so he was getting impatient to bring the bond hearing to a conclusion so he could move on to his next task.  Read and decide for yourselves.

Quote
Transcript shows new details in past bond hearing for homicide suspect

During a bond hearing earlier this year, days after Stanley Vernon Majors had been released from jail after allegedly running over a neighbor with his car, the prosecutor fighting to keep Majors behind bars found himself in a predicament.

Majors, charged last year with assault and battery with a deadly weapon, had just left jail after posting a “completely inadequate” $30,000 bond,” Assistant District Attorney Brett Mize told District Judge Bill LaFortune during the bond hearing.

The Frontier obtained a transcript of the May 25 hearing during which Majors’ bond was discussed.

Mizewas worried that Majors, who lived next door to his alleged victim and had a long history of alleged racially-charged harassment toward the Jabara family, would return home and immediately return to his old tricks. Realizing LaFortune was determined to grant Majors bail, Mize asked the judge to raise it to $300,000 and require Majors wear an ankle monitor.

majors jabara
Stanley Vernon Majors, left, was arrested last week for allegedly killing his neighbor, Khalid Jabara, right. Records show Majors told attorneys he would move away from the Jabara family, but it was never set as a formal condition.
LaFortune gave the prosecutor two options: leave the bail at $30,000 with a new condition that Majors move from his home into an apartment far away from the family he allegedly tormented or have his bail upped to $60,000.

Court records appear to show Mize and Marvin Lizama, Majors’ attorney, settled on the latter. Less than three months later, Khalid Jabara was dead, shot to death last Friday on his front porch, and Majors was arrested for the alleged murder.

That revelation in the highly publicized case came Thursday after a transcript of the May 25 bond hearing was reviewed by The Frontier.

Majors allegedly terrorized his Lebanese neighbors for years, routinely spitting racial epithets at them. Prior to Khalid Jabara’s shooting Friday, the bad blood culminated last September when an allegedly drunken Majors reportedly ran over Khalid’s mother, Haifa, who was on an evening walk.

Documents:
State’s motion to reconsider bond
Transcript from the May 25 bond hearing

The 65-year-old woman, who runs a successful catering business, was found by a passerby lying in a pool of blood, asking for her husband. Her shoes had been knocked off of her body and were found by police lying 44 feet away, a fact that led investigators to determine Majors hit the woman at full speed.

“When someone is struck at a decent rate of speed, one of the first things that actually flies from the body are the shoes,” Officer Stephen Theimer testified at a previous hearing on that incident. “That’s just from the force of the strike.”

Another officer, who had responded to dozens of disputes between the Jabaras and Majors, testified in that hearing that Majors “had a dislike” for his neighbors, noting he’d once responded to three calls in one day at the two residences.

The suggestion that Majors move from his home at 9332 S. 85th E. Ave. was initially made by Majors himself, the transcript shows. It was made as attorneys were bartering with LaFortune over the prospect of equipping Majors with an ankle monitor.

LaFortune said during the hearing he “routinely” ordered ankle monitors, but he was concerned it would have little effect since Majors lived just a few feet away from the Jabaras.

“I just don’t think it’s going to have the effect it normally would,” the judge said.

LaFortune then addressed Majors directly.

“This is a very precarious situation for the court and for the parties and for yourself and for the victim’s — the alleged victim’s — family,” he told Majors.

“Well I could move to another apartment,” Majors said.

“Well that might be a great idea,” LaFortune responded.

LaFortune told The Frontier on Monday that ethics rules would not allow him to speak about the case, since the felony the bond hearing was attached to was still pending in Tulsa County District Court.

Family members have criticized the way Majors’ case was handled, saying it was not treated with the seriousness it deserved. However, on the day of the bond hearing, LaFortune appeared very concerned with both Majors’ history and his proximity to the Jabaras.

LaFortune said during the hearing that when he set the original $30,000 bail, just days before this bond hearing, he had not been aware of much of Majors’ prior alleged incidents with the family.

Haifa Jabara had a protective order against him, which had already been violated once prior to the alleged assault. Police records show officers responding to various disputes between the two sides dozens of times in the last few years.

“I mean it’s not a good history for you in terms of my perception, and I’m very concerned with you out of custody and living next door to the victim and the victim’s family, of what might happen on any given day given this history,” LaFortune told Majors.

But still, LaFortune seemed perfectly willing to leave the bond at $30,000, offering Mize a take-it-or-leave-it scenario at the end of the hearing, noting he wanted to hurry because he had a jury waiting for a trial that was set to begin.

“I can put (Majors moving to an apartment) as a condition if we want to get it wrapped up,” LaFortune told the attorneys. “I don’t want to spend all day on this because I’ve got a jury waiting.”

Mize, according to the transcript, initially seemed amenable to the $30,000 bail, saying he would “be agreeable to going back to the original bond” if Majors would be willing to move into a different location. and moving condition.

But he quickly backtracked and again asked LaFortune for the $60,000 bail.

“Judge, I think I negotiated against myself there,” he told LaFortune. “I would rather leave it at 60 (thousand) and put the effort on them to prove they’re making steps to move away.”

Majors posted the increased bond hours after the hearing ended and was released from custody until he was arrested last Friday for allegedly killing Khalid Jabara.

Lizama could not be reached for comment late Thursday.

District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler, who said he expects to get the criminal case against Majors from Tulsa Police by the end of Friday, told The Frontier earlier this week that “the system failed” the Jabara family by letting Majors out of jail unchecked.

He said Thursday that it appeared in the bond hearing that prosecutors first argued for Majors to be held without bond, then sought a $300,000 bail. Kunzweiler said prosecutors “wanted an ankle monitor and we wanted him out of the house.”

“To which we got neither,” he said.

“What it sounds like to me, from the transcript, is that we wanted a higher bond to be set, but it became clear that (District Judge Bill LaFortune) was not going to go above $60,000, so that’s what we agreed to,” Kunzweiler said. He noted that what prosecutors typically do at that point is accept the judge’s high range and then negotiate from there.

The killing has generated heavy interest nationally, and even internationally, with outlets ranging from the BBC to Aljazeera covering Jabara’s death.

Jabara’s funeral is set for Thursday evening. Fundraisers have raised more than $15,000 to help the family with expenses.



From readfrontier.com


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2016, 04:15:52 pm


And take the guilty plea with a grain of salt. Nearly everyone who makes a deal has to plead guilty and has to admit they are pleading guilty because they are guilty, otherwise, no deal. Face 10 years in prison, or say you are guilty and get slapped on the wrist. I'm not saying the guy was innocent, but the guilty please is, unfortunately, not indicative of the truth of the matter asserted.

Furthermore, a conviction wasn't a forgone conclusion. Presumably, the evidence in favor of the state was testimony of minors. This guy would have told a different story. And a jury could believe the kids and still believe that the defendant had "lawful justification" or otherwise decide he was overcharged or a witness doesn't show up or... there's a reason the State gave him a deal and walked away. Even if the State had a rock solid case, a plea is almost always on the table. And this plea didn't look out of the ordinary.

And the judge generally has zero input on a "deal." His job is to have the DA present the deal and ask the Defendant if he has accepted the deal, then approve it or reject it. If you want to allege that a sitting judge is corrupt, show some evidence. What you have shown thus far is that you are unfamiliar with how the criminal courts really works. When it doesn't work in a manner you agree with, it must be corrupt. Or so says Donald Trump.  (over the line?)

I suspect you are personally invested in this case for some reason.

Also--- this Mark Eaton didn't get in more trouble (there are two Mark Eatons, one is born in the 1950s and appears to have a drug problem, the one you appear to be discussing is born in the 1980s).  The Mark Eaton we are discussing seems to be 6 years into a 10 year Court supervision and has not gotten in any more trouble.  I don't know this guy and the only reason I looked it up is this post - so substitute Defendant Dave for this guy all you want... just an example.


Friend of the family.  (I have mentioned that several times in the past on posts about this.)

17 year olds.  Two other neighbors witnessed it, too.  I don't remember if their names got onto police report - they said talked to someone about the case, though, and thought it was prosecutors office...

Mark Allen Eaton.  The 1980's one.  The other one spells his middle name Alan, IIRC.


More trouble - well, none that has been reported to police.  The neighborhood attitude is, well if he got away with this, what is the point....?  Couple of times, another neighbor has called police about this guy shooting his Glock in the backyard - and MAE talked about it with him.  One event, his dog got into yet another neighbor's yard, so he just fired off a couple shots to get the dogs to stop fighting....And with all the history, it's no wonder he would not sign a police report - just puts a target on his back.

Other stuff is just low level white trash punk BS that others do all the time, too, so not really much point.  Racing cars through neighborhood, etc.   Driving across neighbor's yard to park in his front yard (dog fight guy).  Parking his toy hauler trailer on the other neighbor's yard.  Little trashy carp...


I understand how the courts cut deals all the time.  (Especially when there is someone who knows someone who knows someone.  I'm betting some Eaton's know some Eaton's - just a hunch.)  One point that still remains is how we get so many simple possessions who end up with prison time, and then a violent event doesn't even get a concealed carry permit removed for a violent firearm related crime.  That is the biggest issue to me personally.  Even as "enthusiastic" as I am about gun rights, I am equally enthusiastic about personal responsibility if you do violent things.  This case has "boys will be boys" treatment by the court written all over it.



Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 22, 2016, 04:53:36 pm
The low level possession resulting in charges is from a couple of different sources in my experience one is those guys get busted over and over and over and over, until eventually they are forced to do time. Another is federal law "encouraged" states under the war on drugs to enact laws being "tough on drugs" with more in-jail time etc.

I know the frustration of having low-life neighbors and little that can be done about it. Not advocating for the guy, just that it isn't unique.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Hoss on August 22, 2016, 06:15:50 pm
Answering the question to the actual subject line, I found out in the last couple of days that I actually work with the victim's sister.  She's a marketing manager for a publication and/or event show we run.  FWIU she was the one who wrote the statement that was circulated to the press.  In her line of work she knows how to write to grab attention.  I know that sounds a little callous, but bringing attention to this is not a bad thing.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2016, 08:06:36 pm


I know the frustration of having low-life neighbors and little that can be done about it. Not advocating for the guy, just that it isn't unique.


I dunno, hookers and gypsies can be pretty entertaining.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: Hoss on August 22, 2016, 09:36:34 pm
I dunno, hookers and gypsies can be pretty entertaining.

Damn shame I wasn't able to get the old copter over there to run yours off C... :)


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 23, 2016, 07:38:20 am
I dunno, hookers and gypsies can be pretty entertaining.

Add in a crazy cat lady, a conspiracy obsessed Arab guy (who the cat lady is convinced is a terrorist), some retired people, some people with mental health issues who push each other around in shopping carts, a good number of retired persons, and a sprinkling of "normals" and... well, it's better than a movie, it's my neighborhood.


Title: Re: How a Tulsa Neighbor Dispute Becomes International News
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 23, 2016, 01:07:17 pm
I dunno, hookers and gypsies can be pretty entertaining.


Funny you should mention that....one of the places I stay from time to time has been inundated this year with some of both!!   I thought you had to be in my head there for a minute...   One hooker was next door for about 3 weeks ( I am only around intermittently), and it was quite a parade when I was there!   Haven't seen the like since the May rooms were still around in the 60's and 70's!

The Paving Gypsies showed up in May and one group was sent away after just a week - neighborhood items started disappearing...ladders, tools, etc.  The last group stayed a couple extra weeks, but disappearances ended.  Gypsies are a real thing - don't ever doubt it!

And yeah, it can be pretty entertaining...