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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => Local & State Politics => Topic started by: Vashta Nerada on July 19, 2016, 07:25:20 pm



Title: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 19, 2016, 07:25:20 pm
Tulsa made national news again.   ;D


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/tulsa-police-kill-men-wielding-weapons-back-back-days-article-1.2717707
The Sooner State is no stranger to police shootings. An analysis of fatal police shootings conducted by the Washington Post in 2015 found that at 4.4 deaths per million people, Oklahoma had the highest rate of fatal encounters between civilians and police in the country.




I’ll never forget the mood at the squad meeting at 3 pm on September 11, 2001.  I gathered with about 20 cops in the same room that we had deployed out of for years but this day was different.  Our country had been attacked and we were pissed.

In fact, several from that day joined the military and others seriously pondered it.

Those thoughts and feelings came back like a vengeance this morning as I heard the news about Baton Rouge.  Yes, we all saw five officers killed in Dallas last week and multiple shot throughout the week but today’s news solidifies what just about no one wants to acknowledge.

    We are at war!

All we have heard for the last few years is how cops are racist and our training isn’t right and we don’t need basic equipment like riot gear, helmets and armored vehicles and we all need to ‘soften’ our uniforms.  This is all pushed down our throats even more every time we have to use deadly force against individuals attacking us.

We have leaders of state police saying we must all be re-trained, celebrities calling us murderers and even the President saying our profession has embedded racism. Black Lives Matter continues to be invited to the White House and given a voice despite violence breaking out all around them and despite all of that….no one wants to acknowledge the obvious.

    We are at war!

The men and women behind the badge know it.  Good leaders know it and decent communities know it.  For the safety of all of our men and women behind the badge, it is time our country knows it.
................
Major Travis Yates is a Commander with the Tulsa (OK) Police Department and the Editor In Chief for Law Officer. His Seminars in Risk Management & Officer Safety have been taught across the United States & Canada. Major Yates has a Master of Science Degree in Criminal Justice and is a graduate of the FBI National Academy. He is the Director of Training for SAFETAC Training.



http://lawofficer.com/2016/07/this-is-war/
http://www.fox23.com/news/group-calls-for-resignation-of-tulsa-police-commander/407324757
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/we-the-people-calls-for-resignation-of-tulsa-police-major/article_bfa28894-1e17-59b0-92e3-f7aab262f608.html




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ibanez on July 19, 2016, 08:05:34 pm
We get it, you hate cops.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/P4NNl4Znj0TeM/giphy.gif)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 19, 2016, 08:22:36 pm
(https://media.giphy.com/media/P4NNl4Znj0TeM/giphy.gif)

It's a local story and meets all the moderators conditions......


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on July 20, 2016, 06:25:51 am
Yates apologized for his post about law enforcement officers being "at war" with their fellow citizens. There's no information on any disciplinary action as it's considered part of his personnel file. It could simply be swept under the rug or he could face departmental discipline. I doubt he'll be fired.

Regardless, a high profile incident like this illustrates the need for transparency and accountability from our local police departments. I don't want a cop on the street who sees ordinary citizens as the enemy.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on July 20, 2016, 07:41:33 am
This is an emotional outburst from someone who is in the line of work where eight cops were executed at random over the last two weeks for no other reason than they wear the badge.  None of the regular posters on here I know of on here are LEO, so we don’t really have the slightest clue what it’s like knowing this morning could be the last time you pull on your boots working to protect and defend others.

Since when can a cop not express his or her opinion or emotions?  I didn’t take the comment “We are at war” to mean cops are declaring war on criminals, I took it for what it was intended:  Cops feel like they are under siege.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 20, 2016, 07:57:49 am
This is an emotional outburst from someone who is in the line of work where eight cops were executed at random over the last two weeks for no other reason than they wear the badge.  None of the regular posters on here I know of on here are LEO, so we don’t really have the slightest clue what it’s like knowing this morning could be the last time you pull on your boots working to protect and defend others.

Since when can a cop not express his or her opinion or emotions?  I didn’t take the comment “We are at war” to mean cops are declaring war on criminals, I took it for what it was intended:  Cops feel like they are under siege.


Yep.


We have to get over the 'silo' mentality that accompanies this topic on both sides. 



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on July 20, 2016, 08:32:32 am

Regardless, a high profile incident like this illustrates the need for transparency and accountability from our local police departments. I don't want a cop on the street who sees ordinary citizens as the enemy.

Its one of those unguarded moments out of the reach of Public Information Officers that give us a brief glimpse of whats really going on in people's minds.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: erfalf on July 20, 2016, 08:46:35 am
How should they not feel like they are at war when those killing them seem to be showing every sign that they are at war with cops?

We weren't at war with Japan until we were at war with Japan.

I do not fault this cop for having these feelings. I would put my donkey on the line in saying that I have no doubt that this particular officer does not look at civilians as enemies. That's the problem. He's at war with a ghost and that's what is so frustrating. It causes them to take more aggressive, safety stances in their everyday work.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on July 20, 2016, 10:05:52 am
TPD's social media policy says that officers may not post anything detrimental to the department or anything that may be an embarrassment to the departmen and this applies both on duty and off. This is pretty much standard stuff that you'd find in many employee policies.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on July 20, 2016, 10:57:30 am
How should they not feel like they are at war when those killing them seem to be showing every sign that they are at war with cops?

We weren't at war with Japan until we were at war with Japan.

I do not fault this cop for having these feelings. I would put my donkey on the line in saying that I have no doubt that this particular officer does not look at civilians as enemies. That's the problem. He's at war with a ghost and that's what is so frustrating. It causes them to take more aggressive, safety stances in their everyday work.

But who is he at war with? Mentally unstable black ex-Marines with anger issues?

And declaring the police are at war is a really bad look on day when TPD kills TWO people, one of them for throwing a screwdriver.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 20, 2016, 12:26:09 pm
... so we don’t really have the slightest clue what it’s like knowing this morning could be the last time you pull on your boots working to protect and defend others...Cops feel like they are under siege.

I have no doubt police feel like they are under siege. Clearly, they sometimes are. But that sometimes is thankfully very limited, usually to less than 50 incidents in a year (of officers being shot and killed while on duty). That number is too large, but given the number of encounters police have with the citizens (hundreds of millions a year?), it is a very rare event. And we need it to be a rare event because effective policing and respect for the job they do is mandatory for our society. It goes without saying that murdering random officers for the perceived misdeeds of other officers is not only tragic, but counterproductive to any goal but anarchy.

So while I can't fault an officer for being weary, we need to recognize that feeling like you are under assault and at war with the population you are supposed to serve can lead to additional problems. The sentiment firmly reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that black lives matters has been accused of fostering. If both sides feel it is competition, let alone a war, very little good can come to fruition until one side "wins" the war.

However, in my mind one side is a bunch of angry people airing grievances against the government (murderers, violent protesters, and vandals not included in this simplification). The other are professional government agents tasked with enforcing laws and keeping the peace. So I am more distressed by the sentiment by the police than from the protesters. My expectations are higher and, as we've seen repeatedly, most police officers have risen above the sentiment and shown why they deserve the respect that they have (protecting the protesters, having picnics with/for them, etc.). I expect nothing less from the Officers who work for the citizens of Tulsa.

An officer is entitled to an emotional outburst like anyone else. But when that emotional outburst is at work or in an official capacity - they should try to keep it under control. That's why we have a professional police force.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on July 20, 2016, 12:49:51 pm
I have no doubt police feel like they are under siege. Clearly, they sometimes are. But that sometimes is thankfully very limited, usually to less than 50 incidents in a year (of officers being shot and killed while on duty). That number is too large, but given the number of encounters police have with the citizens (hundreds of millions a year?), it is a very rare event. And we need it to be a rare event because effective policing and respect for the job they do is mandatory for our society. It goes without saying that murdering random officers for the perceived misdeeds of other officers is not only tragic, but counterproductive to any goal but anarchy.

So while I can't fault an officer for being weary, we need to recognize that feeling like you are under assault and at war with the population you are supposed to serve can lead to additional problems. The sentiment firmly reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that black lives matters has been accused of fostering. If both sides feel it is competition, let alone a war, very little good can come to fruition until one side "wins" the war.

However, in my mind one side is a bunch of angry people airing grievances against the government (murderers, violent protesters, and vandals not included in this simplification). The other are professional government agents tasked with enforcing laws and keeping the peace. So I am more distressed by the sentiment by the police than from the protesters. My expectations are higher and, as we've seen repeatedly, most police officers have risen above the sentiment and shown why they deserve the respect that they have (protecting the protesters, having picnics with/for them, etc.). I expect nothing less from the Officers who work for the citizens of Tulsa.

An officer is entitled to an emotional outburst like anyone else. But when that emotional outburst is at work or in an official capacity - they should try to keep it under control. That's why we have a professional police force.

Especially when said officer is a commander with hundreds of cops under him.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on July 20, 2016, 01:46:59 pm
Especially when said officer is a commander with hundreds of cops under him.

...and thousands of cops reading his website.
Thats pretty much why an attitude in Missouri or Louisiana is an attitude in Tulsa.

OTOH, this retired NYPD detective's take was somewhat inspiring: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/opinion/why-there-is-no-war-on-the-police.html



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on July 21, 2016, 02:26:47 pm
From State Representative Regina Goodwin :
Major Wendell Phillips will be commanding the Gilcrease Division North post previously held by Major Yates. Spoke with Chief Jordan and we remain on track to soon implement comprehensive community policing . Justice and peace are our objectives. We must work with integrity and a sense of urgency to further improve communication, relationships, respect and generate trust. We can make Tulsa safer. Let's be about it!


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 22, 2016, 07:05:08 pm
From State Representative Regina Goodwin :
Major Wendell Phillips will be commanding the Gilcrease Division North post previously held by Major Yates. Spoke with Chief Jordan and we remain on track to soon implement comprehensive community policing . Justice and peace are our objectives. We must work with integrity and a sense of urgency to further improve communication, relationships, respect and generate trust. We can make Tulsa safer. Let's be about it!

Yates was just promoted to the head of the Special Operations Division.

Yes, the one at the heart of the corruption scandal. http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=14539.0






Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on July 22, 2016, 07:31:03 pm
Yates was just promoted to the head of the Special Operations Division.

Yes, the one at the heart of the corruption scandal. http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=14539.0






Ok, I'm no fan of Yates and what he wrote, but he wasn't promoted, he was reassigned from heading Gilcrease. It's a lateral move. Second, that scandal was seven years ago and has little to nothing to do with current events.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 23, 2016, 03:27:57 pm
Ok, I'm no fan of Yates and what he wrote, but he wasn't promoted, he was reassigned from heading Gilcrease. It's a lateral move.

What's that game where you move the pieces so as to distract the viewer to the point where they cant keep track of the player, or loose interest?




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on July 23, 2016, 03:30:25 pm
What's that game where you move the pieces so as to distract the viewer to the point where they cant keep track of the player, or loose interest?




I agree that is what is going on, but that doesn't mean he was "promoted" as you claimed.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Breadburner on July 24, 2016, 10:41:58 am
What is the dingle berry OP yammering about now....???


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: sauerkraut on July 24, 2016, 02:01:49 pm
What's up in Tulsa with the massive number of homeless people all over the city, you see people sleeping in bus stop shelters, on the grass of freeway exit ramps, around Wal-Mart parking lots. Don't cops  enforce any laws on this or does the mayor tell the cops not to do anything? If you give money to a beggar on a street corner, the next day you'll have 2 or 3 beggars at that corner. These past few years the homeless population really exploded. This is a Tulsa problem, when you go into BA, Bixby, Glenpool,  Owasso, or any suburb you don't see this problem.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Hoss on July 24, 2016, 02:04:52 pm
What's up in Tulsa with the massive number of homeless people all over the city, you see people sleeping in bus stop shelters, on the grass of freeway exit ramps, around Wal-Mart parking lots. Don't cops  enforce any laws on this or does the mayor tell the cops not to do anything? If you give money to a beggar on a street corner, the next day you'll have 2 or 3 beggars at that corner. These past few years the homeless population really exploded. This is a Tulsa problem, when you go into BA, Bixby, Glenpool,  Owasso, or any suburb you don't see this problem.

That's straight up BS and proves to me you don't live here.  I see them in nearly EVERY suburb in town and I visit them all.  Well, all except Glenpool.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on July 24, 2016, 03:39:57 pm
Hoss is correct about this being metro wide. I don't know where you live but panhandling has become pandemic. See it at every corner of the city. However its more difficult in the burbs without medians and sidewalks. The local cops are more likely to go after them in the burbs as well since Tulsa cops have more important stuff to do. Its funny to see one at the corner of Tulsa Hills where no one stops to give money lest they miss the turn light.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on July 24, 2016, 06:15:38 pm
It doesn’t look any worse to me these days than it has in the last 10 years and I’m all over the metro every day.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Hoss on July 24, 2016, 06:54:25 pm
It doesn’t look any worse to me these days than it has in the last 10 years and I’m all over the metro every day.

20 years ago before I moved back to Tulsa from Texas a panhandler was very rare here.  I got used to them while living in Houston however.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on July 24, 2016, 07:22:47 pm
I'm seeing more than I have in a long time. Especially in the mid-town area. Its becoming a career choice for a lot of people. They work a bit, pan handle a bit and make better money on the street. Easy choice if you have the skills and patience. Sauer's description of "massive" amounts is .....Sauer.

Timing is everything for them. Unless you're at a busy corner during a busy time you won't find them. They're under the overpasses, along the river or at the convenience stores. Hard workers really. 100 degrees and standing at the entrance to Tulsa Hills at lunch? That's work.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on July 24, 2016, 07:43:10 pm
I'm seeing more than I have in a long time. Especially in the mid-town area. Its becoming a career choice for a lot of people. They work a bit, pan handle a bit and make better money on the street. Easy choice if you have the skills and patience. Sauer's description of "massive" amounts is .....Sauer.

Timing is everything for them. Unless you're at a busy corner during a busy time you won't find them. They're under the overpasses, along the river or at the convenience stores. Hard workers really. 100 degrees and standing at the entrance to Tulsa Hills at lunch? That's work.

These panhandlers aren't the homeless under bridges, these look like professional grifters. They work in teams and are organized to hit all the important intersections in a given area.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on July 25, 2016, 10:06:20 am
I haven’t even been hit up in downtown or at a QT lately which used to be a pretty regular occurrence.  I did have one guy show up on Saturday morning during Tulsa Tough expecting to get paid to help with set up, but that’s as close to an all out panhandle as I’ve heard in awhile.  I told him it was all volunteer and he walked off, didn’t even solicit a cup of coffee.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on July 25, 2016, 10:34:52 am
They really like the hospital corridor along Utica:
15th and Utica, Phillips station.
13th and Utica, they work in platoons.
Admiral and Utica off 244. Assemble under the trees and work all four corners.

They also like the convenience of Riverparks and West Tulsa
between 66bridge and 23rd street bridge. Layover spot.
23rd and Southwest blvd. On median between McDon and QT. McDon has a sign prohibiting loitering in the building
17th and Southwest blvd on exit ramp or across from liquour store. Friendly enough, rotate in and out from the overpass.

Other spots like Memorial at 31st near the hotels are good too but Swake is right. They carpool in vans and get dropped at hotspots. Clever signs, a scroungy dog and claimed Veteran status are necessary props.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: godboko71 on July 25, 2016, 02:23:14 pm
Turnpike exits on Memorial also have one at every corner, sometimes even the on ramps. The pros have been migrating further south.

As for nonpros one has to look no further than well any given underpass there is a good chance if you look up you will see tents, or clothes hanging, someone sleeping.

Granted doesn't have much to do with police feeling at war.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 25, 2016, 02:30:35 pm
This is a fair assessment, if incomplete, assessment IMHO:

https://popehat.com/2016/07/21/reverence-for-the-blue/


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on July 25, 2016, 02:36:32 pm

Granted doesn't have much to do with police feeling at war.

Used to be bad at the downtown post office, but the last time I was panhandled was at the Denny's at 244 and Sheridan.  Pancakes.

And yes, this would make a good topic of its own.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 31, 2016, 06:31:17 pm
I agree that is what is going on, but that doesn't mean he was "promoted" as you claimed.




You cant put the genie back in the bottle.

Now the police unions are pushing to have cops pack their favorite heat (including sawed-off-shotguns) on Oklahoma streets.

A local body armor and police equipment store tells us their sales have gone through the roof.
http://okcfox.com/news/local/police-officers-flooding-okc-body-armor-store-for-new-protective-gear
http://kfor.com/2016/07/28/officers-rushing-to-buy-body-armor-rifles-amid-attacks-on-police/


"We are not dealing with an issue of race," the mayor told CNN. "We are dealing with what is in the minds of individuals that are empowered with a badge and a gun."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/us/east-cleveland-police-officers-fired/



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on August 01, 2016, 07:27:46 am



You cant put the genie back in the bottle.

Now the police unions are pushing to have cops pack their favorite heat (including sawed-off-shotguns) on Oklahoma streets.

A local body armor and police equipment store tells us their sales have gone through the roof.
http://okcfox.com/news/local/police-officers-flooding-okc-body-armor-store-for-new-protective-gear
http://kfor.com/2016/07/28/officers-rushing-to-buy-body-armor-rifles-amid-attacks-on-police/


"We are not dealing with an issue of race," the mayor told CNN. "We are dealing with what is in the minds of individuals that are empowered with a badge and a gun."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/29/us/east-cleveland-police-officers-fired/



I must have missed the part about the sawed off shotguns in either article you posted.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 06, 2016, 05:55:59 pm
Its one of those unguarded moments out of the reach of Public Information Officers that give us a brief glimpse of whats really going on in people's minds.

Hows this for unguarded moments?     http://preview.tinyurl.com/hqrg3qx


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 07, 2016, 01:42:25 am
Hows this for unguarded moments?     http://preview.tinyurl.com/hqrg3qx


And this has what to do with Tulsa, or for that matter Oklahoma?


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 07, 2016, 03:42:31 pm
And this has what to do with Tulsa, or for that matter Oklahoma?


There is a correlation between police violence in Tulsa and police violence in other cities, especially when you have a Tulsa official speaking as an authority on the "War on Cops" and influencing that behavior.

Why do you only complain about criticism of police, when you yourself are guilty of other non-Tulsa thread drifts here?

With such inflammatory and paranoid speech, possibly linked to violent deaths at the hands of police around the country, has its origins in Tulsa, then Tulsa at the least has an obligation to address it.


A community consistently subjected to violent discrimination under the law will lose respect for it, and act beyond it. When such actions stretch to mass murder it is horrific. But it is also predictable.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/the-near-certainty-of-anti-police-violence/490541/




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 08, 2016, 09:31:44 am

There is a correlation between police violence in Tulsa and police violence in other cities, especially when you have a Tulsa official speaking as an authority on the "War on Cops" and influencing that behavior.

Why do you only complain about criticism of police, when you yourself are guilty of other non-Tulsa thread drifts here?

With such inflammatory and paranoid speech, possibly linked to violent deaths at the hands of police around the country, has its origins in Tulsa, then Tulsa at the least has an obligation to address it.


A community consistently subjected to violent discrimination under the law will lose respect for it, and act beyond it. When such actions stretch to mass murder it is horrific. But it is also predictable.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/the-near-certainty-of-anti-police-violence/490541/




Big difference between thread drift and your raging erection to bash the police.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 08, 2016, 12:33:53 pm
Big difference between thread drift and your raging erection to bash the police.


Like most topics, if he didn't do it - and people like Vash -  there would be so little public awareness it would just quietly slip beneath the waves and the establishment goal accomplished - nobody rocking the boat and making life uncomfortable for the status quo.

Must have agitators and instigators if a free society is to ever survive!!



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 08, 2016, 06:21:51 pm
 Sorry! I forgot you and Vash run the roost, and people that disagree or have a different point of view are not welcome. Happens with most forums where a couple of donkey tails run off other posters with their righteous attitudes and crapping all over others that disagree.

Christ, the Chicago incised has been all over the news, as well as issuesome in other cities and the two of you just have to continually cram it down everybody else's throats as if we were a bunch of ignorant f****. It's  just so tiresome to read that you two are the only all knowing ones and beat the drum constantly. WE GET IT! WE'RE  NOT STUPID!


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: rebound on August 09, 2016, 06:49:28 am
Sorry! I forgot you and Vash run the roost, and people that disagree or have a different point of view are not welcome. Happens with most forums where a couple of donkey tails run off other posters with their righteous attitudes and crapping all over others that disagree.

Christ, the Chicago incised has been all over the news, as well as issuesome in other cities and the two of you just have to continually cram it down everybody else's throats as if we were a bunch of ignorant f****. It's  just so tiresome to read that you two are the only all knowing ones and beat the drum constantly. WE GET IT! WE'RE  NOT STUPID!

Ahem, if I may...   "Dude, calm down."    :)





Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: TulsaMoon on August 09, 2016, 08:12:44 am
Sorry! I forgot you and Vash run the roost, and people that disagree or have a different point of view are not welcome. Happens with most forums where a couple of donkey tails run off other posters with their righteous attitudes and crapping all over others that disagree.

Christ, the Chicago incised has been all over the news, as well as issuesome in other cities and the two of you just have to continually cram it down everybody else's throats as if we were a bunch of ignorant f****. It's  just so tiresome to read that you two are the only all knowing ones and beat the drum constantly. WE GET IT! WE'RE  NOT STUPID!

Could not have said it better, which is why I really try to not post at all anymore. Way to tired of being blasted instead of having a conversation.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 09, 2016, 10:39:35 am
Sorry! I forgot you and Vash run the roost, and people that disagree or have a different point of view are not welcome. Happens with most forums where a couple of donkey tails run off other posters with their righteous attitudes and crapping all over others that disagree.

Christ, the Chicago incised has been all over the news, as well as issuesome in other cities and the two of you just have to continually cram it down everybody else's throats as if we were a bunch of ignorant f****. It's  just so tiresome to read that you two are the only all knowing ones and beat the drum constantly. WE GET IT! WE'RE  NOT STUPID!


Not at all !!  You are MORE than welcome - would much rather have more people like you!!  I miss Gaspar and guido quite a bit.  I have even had fun going after teatownclown a few times, but he was often 'too easy'.   I never carp all over anyone - I am too reactionary for that - I DO very carefully, pointedly, and enthusiastically show when people are being intentionally disingenuous, extremist, and intellectually dishonest by my reactions.  And depending on the degree, will respond in kind plus 10%.  When one wants to have an actual discussion on a topic I am even more interested and scale the response accordingly...the best moments here are when we can discuss without the name calling the extremists always fall back on when they exhibit such limited mental capacity they can't express anything past the first 'thought'.  Think of all the past posts where RWRE in particular have thrown out a Faux News soundbite POS, and then when there was any response, no matter what degree, name calling ensued.  They are sprinkled all over here.


As for being stupid - why would you take that personally?  Actually, I never called you stupid, or implied it.   If you know your aren't stupid, then nothing I say would apply to you then, would it?   


Did you even read my comment??  It was mild to the point of innocuous....no judgement, no condemnation, or 'taking sides' - just pointed out that we as a society need agitators.  If there EVER were a barn door 50' wide, inviting a measured conversation, that would be it.  Perhaps you have some thoughts about agitators in our society that you would want to talk about??.  ALL the founders of the nation perhaps?  John Brown?  Teddy Roosevelt.  MLK.  Ken Kesey.   ??




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 09, 2016, 06:43:43 pm
Christ, the Chicago incised has been all over the news, as well as issuesome in other cities and the two of you just have to continually cram it down everybody else's throats as if we were a bunch of ignorant f****. It's  just so tiresome to read that you two are the only all knowing ones and beat the drum constantly. WE GET IT! WE'RE  NOT STUPID!


The random killing of Dallas police was foolish, tragic and uncalled for.  We are reminded of that daily with memorials, fundraisers, etc. while at the same time police still shoot an average of two to three people a day in this country, and you will likely never hear their names.
http://www.npr.org/2016/07/07/485138709/the-washington-post-documents-increased-frequency-of-police-shootings

A database that tracks fatal shootings by police shows a 6 percent increase in the number of such deaths during the first six months of 2016, compared with the same period last year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html


Want to do something really positive for police in America?  Stop defending bad practices.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on August 10, 2016, 07:24:48 am

The random killing of Dallas police was foolish, tragic and uncalled for.  We are reminded of that daily with memorials, fundraisers, etc. while at the same time police still shoot an average of two to three people a day in this country, and you will likely never hear their names.
http://www.npr.org/2016/07/07/485138709/the-washington-post-documents-increased-frequency-of-police-shootings

A database that tracks fatal shootings by police shows a 6 percent increase in the number of such deaths during the first six months of 2016, compared with the same period last year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html


Want to do something really positive for police in America?  Stop defending bad practices.

Have and do cops make mistakes?  Absolutely.

You seem to be under the assumption that every cop-involved shooting involved someone who was un-armed or it was entirely malicious.  There are people in society, who for lack of a better way of saying it, need to be put down to prevent others from getting killed.  Sometimes, cops have no other alternative than to end up shooting someone.

One metric you left off from your 2-3 people being shot by cops mantra is how many people were arrested without the use of deadly force?


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 12, 2016, 07:04:37 pm
Have and do cops make mistakes?  Absolutely.

You seem to be under the assumption that every cop-involved shooting involved someone who was un-armed or it was entirely malicious.  There are people in society, who for lack of a better way of saying it, need to be put down to prevent others from getting killed.  Sometimes, cops have no other alternative than to end up shooting someone.

One metric you left off from your 2-3 people being shot by cops mantra is how many people were arrested without the use of deadly force?


There are too many examples of unarmed citizens obeying police instructions to the letter and still being shot.

Its not so much a matter of what is or isnt in the victim's hand, as what's in the cops head.

http://wsvn.com/news/local/application-for-north-miami-officer-shows-misdemeanor-arrest-psych-review/

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OgdfOz9VsPg/V5F3_G8FdAI/AAAAAAAACUk/nj7Pv6Cld1wyVZXEIU7xV9EfBIeeBDYnACLcB/s640/4221396001_5044618745001_5044605568001-vs.jpg)
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Family-of-Man-Who-Was-Shot-by-Sheriffs-Deputy-Files-Lawsuit-389823241.html
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article94009242.html






Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 17, 2016, 06:27:39 pm
Governor Mary Fallin signed a bill into law yesterday offering law enforcement officers in the field an extra layer of protection.
House Bill 2447 or the Blue Alert Act passed unanimously in the House and Senate.
Whenever an officer is targeted, killed or injured, a Blue Alert would go out to other law enforcement and the public.




Blue Alert is similar to an Amber or Silver Alert, except when they find you, they kill you.

Its a solution in search of A problem.




Police work has been getting a lot safer. Fatalities and murders of police have been falling for decades—per resident, per officer and even in in absolute terms...
the data show that 2015 is one of the safest years for American policing in history.
The FBI also collects statistics on the number of police assaulted and injured each year, and they also show dramatic declines in violence against police.

In other words, cops are not just being saved more often—they are also being attacked and injured less frequently.


Another way to look at it is to compare homicide rates from around country to the rate for police. Here the comparison is even more striking: it’s safer to be a cop than it is to simply live in many U.S. cities.
It’s safer to be a cop than it is to live in Baltimore. It’s safer to be a cop than it is to be a fisher, logger, pilot, roofer, miner, trucker or taxi driver. It’s safer to be a cop today than it’s been in years, decades, or even a century.

http://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-372025



“Disproportionate fears about officer safety are leading inexorably to the disproportionate use of force”
http://fee.org/freeman/overkill-militarizing-america





Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on September 18, 2016, 01:46:15 pm
I think the national media is expecting us to start rioting
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-tulsa-fatal-police-shooting-20160918-snap-story.html
but we've been there, done it... and were better than that.

My instincts lean towards an accidental discharge they just dont want to own up to.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on September 18, 2016, 02:10:59 pm
I am impatiently waiting to see the videos. Having a car broken down in that area is not uncommon. Why would they tase him? And then assume he's going for a gun? Maybe he was going for his wallet, his ID, his insurance verification? Hell, maybe a gun, but being big and black they may have made some assumptions.

Had they made an ID? The cop on Fox seemed pretty nervous.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: davideinstein on September 18, 2016, 06:58:32 pm
I think the national media is expecting us to start rioting
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-tulsa-fatal-police-shooting-20160918-snap-story.html
but we've been there, done it... and were better than that.

My instincts lean towards an accidental discharge they just dont want to own up to.



You don't know riots won't start.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on September 18, 2016, 10:34:39 pm
I am impatiently waiting to see the videos. Having a car broken down in that area is not uncommon. Why would they tase him? And then assume he's going for a gun? Maybe he was going for his wallet, his ID, his insurance verification? Hell, maybe a gun, but being big and black they may have made some assumptions.

Had they made an ID? The cop on Fox seemed pretty nervous.


Eyewitness differs from police version
http://www.fox23.com/news/video-witness-to-tulsa-officer-involved-shooting-talks-to-fox23_20160919031747/447348857


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: brettakins on September 19, 2016, 10:32:58 am
Latest update: according to TulsaWorld

Pastor who viewed the footage of the incident states " hands were in the air from all views when he was shot"

"He was tazed and shot almost simultaneously"



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: brettakins on September 19, 2016, 12:21:09 pm
http://www.newson6.com/story/33129765/crutcher-family-holds-news-conference-to-address-fatal-shooting (http://www.newson6.com/story/33129765/crutcher-family-holds-news-conference-to-address-fatal-shooting)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: shavethewhales on September 19, 2016, 12:22:20 pm
I think the national media is expecting us to start rioting
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-tulsa-fatal-police-shooting-20160918-snap-story.html
but we've been there, done it... and were better than that.

My instincts lean towards an accidental discharge they just dont want to own up to.


I don't want a riot, but I do hope we have some massive demonstrations over this. All the lip service the department has given over the last few years is undone over this incident. This is a clear cut case of a black person being shot because he was black.

Maybe it was accidental, but it doesn't really change anything. Most cops shouldn't be cops.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on September 19, 2016, 12:29:16 pm
How does a firearm in the hands of a professional, "accidentally" discharge? He was moving slowly with his hands up when they tased him, then her instincts told her to shoot? Who decided it was worthy of a tase anyway?

This isn't just a big, black guy thing. I'm getting a little wary of cops judgement in average stops. Most cops I know or have met are not like this. Maybe its a subset of them that somehow got faulty training or psych evaluations.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 19, 2016, 12:58:21 pm
Someone started a thread on the most recent Tulsa police shooting here:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21397

Lets consolidate the discussion on that topic, as it is about to blow up with the release of the video. After watching the press conference, this is going to be ugly.

Again, go here:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21397


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on September 19, 2016, 02:00:52 pm
I am impatiently waiting to see the videos.

https://vimeo.com/183327146


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 19, 2016, 06:58:52 pm

He's been called the "architect of the modern police brutality epidemic." 
See how the man behind the junk-science defense of Tulsa Deputy Robert Bates' killing of Eric Harris gets bad cops off the hook.


Are you familiar with the work of William J. Lewinski? Unless you are a police officer, that name probably doesn't ring a bell. It didn't for me, either, until I learned that in many ways he is father, architect and chief defender of the modern police brutality epidemic. As founder and director of the Force Science Institute, he has trained tens of thousands of police officers to shoot first and ask questions later.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-police-officers-weapons-guns-article-1.2759056

He doesn't deny it. It's what he's famous for. It's why police departments all over America lean on him as their resident expert to justify shooting and killing virtually anybody and everybody who gives them even a remote suspicion that they may pose a serious risk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/us/training-officers-to-shoot-first-and-he-will-answer-questions-later.html

Training Officers to Shoot First, and He Will Answer Questions Later

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/us/training-officers-to-shoot-first-and-he-will-answer-questions-later.html

 

The "shoot first-ask questions later" mentality that has swept the nation's police has put more Americans at peril than any act of terrorism.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Laramie on September 23, 2016, 11:10:16 am
So disappointing to continue to see this play out again and again.   It's called driving while black.  Black men in particular continue to be profiled by police.  It's not about putting police against citizens; it's about justice and not just us.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 08, 2016, 10:29:54 pm
So disappointing to continue to see this play out again and again.   It's called driving while black.  Black men in particular continue to be profiled by police.  It's not about putting police against citizens; it's about justice and not just us.


Tulsa has Maj. Travis Yates, Milwaukee has Sheriff Clarke 

everyone else has this crazy-eyed Mullah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zt7bl5Z_oA


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 18, 2016, 06:55:36 pm
“This dark side of our shared history has created a multigenerational — almost inherited — mistrust between many communities of color and their law enforcement agencies,” said Chief Cunningham, president of the 18,000-member International Association of Chiefs of Police.

“For our part, the first step in this process is for law enforcement and the IACP to acknowledge and apologize for the actions of the past and the role that our profession has played in society’s historical mistreatment of communities of color.”



“He’s simply saying: ‘You know, we have to take some responsibility for this.”

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/kimberly_atkins/2016/10/atkins_wellesley_chief_rips_dark_side_of_police_history



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 22, 2016, 03:21:34 pm
Tulsa police killed its sixth person sofar this year. 
#6 was a homeless man shot in the back, #5 was a man killed by a sniper while holding a baby.
Dont know who is winning the war but sure can tell who is loosing.

And where's dashcam videos?  At the lab being "enhanced"?

TPD's "transparency" only happens when its convenient to their goals. The quick release of select videos of the Crutcher killing (#4) ended up being too quick because the videos they chose contradicted a key defense claim.

Looking at a witness cellphone video of homeless man shot in the middle of Utica Ave., the single Taser deployment seems cosmetic and half-hearted, as if they were trying to pacify complaints that TPD are too eager to use deadly force when other options are available.
"Oh I missed, now ill use my gun"


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Breadburner on October 22, 2016, 11:33:11 pm
Another dingle berry on PCP on the ground....Good work....


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on October 23, 2016, 12:25:03 pm
Well no its 7 if you count Taser deaths, which makes it 10.6% of Tulsa's homicides.  Deaths from car chases are counted separate.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: davideinstein on October 23, 2016, 06:14:57 pm
You can't morally justify a shooting person to death over a knife by the police. There has to be a better option.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on October 23, 2016, 06:33:03 pm
Another dingle berry on PCP on the ground....Good work....
]

Someone's child, brother, uncle. A human being in the throes of addiction. But that's, right, just shoot him. Good work. Phillipines need cops like that.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: davideinstein on October 23, 2016, 06:42:56 pm

Someone's child, brother, uncle. A human being in the throes of addiction.

Amen.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 24, 2016, 09:26:48 am
Another dingle berry on PCP on the ground....Good work....


Wait til it happens to you or yours....then let the whining begin...




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 24, 2016, 07:04:40 pm

Someone's child, brother, uncle. A human being in the throes of addiction. But that's, right, just shoot him. Good work. Phillipines need cops like that.




Still no dash cams from the multiple police vehicles there.  Waiting to see how many cellphone videos emerge before deciding on an official story?
Apparently the victim owned a pocket knife but it was still folded when he was killed.    Yet "He had a knife" half-truth makes TV.

"Transparency"



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on October 24, 2016, 07:47:51 pm
You can't morally justify a shooting person to death over a knife by the police. There has to be a better option.

A knife can penetrate a ballistic vest.

(https://thesurvivalplaceblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/images.jpg)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: davideinstein on October 24, 2016, 08:12:08 pm
A knife can penetrate a ballistic vest.

(https://thesurvivalplaceblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/images.jpg)

A shot away from vital organs stops that.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on October 25, 2016, 05:35:55 am
The training calls for shooting at the center of mass. Why? Because adrenaline kicks in and fine motor control goes away. An arm or leg is a difficult target in such conditions especially in motion. This is also why some departments specify fairly heavy trigger pulls despite the detrimental effect on accuracy. It prevents some accidental discharges.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: erfalf on October 25, 2016, 07:44:36 am
This ain't Dirty Hairy guys. If they are going to pull the trigger the intent is to kill. Ed W correctly states that the aim is always at the center of mass in case of errant aim. Sometimes a second chance isn't an option.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on October 25, 2016, 09:49:58 am
Its Dirty Harry, not hairy. Shoot to kill is great for soldiers like when they shot four unarmed students in Kent State. That's their training. If we go that route then disband the Police departments and increase the military presence. Sound inviting to anyone? And, Dirty Harry was alone without backup. A guy with a pocket knife surrounded by heavily armed cops seems more like an assassination than protecting the public. Shoot to kill is stupid advice. Shoot to hit your target is better advice. Most cops miss their targets entirely unless they are walking with their arms up or seriously drugged up.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on October 25, 2016, 10:39:12 am
A guy with a pocket knife surrounded by heavily armed cops seems more like an assassination than protecting the public. Shoot to kill is stupid advice. Shoot to hit your target is better advice. Most cops miss their targets entirely unless they are walking with their arms up or seriously drugged up.

Does the claim that two officers fired (and missed) with Tasers still stand? 


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on October 25, 2016, 10:48:45 am
Its not like our cops can't shoot straight. Its just that shooting during high stress, high distraction environments causes lots of mistakes. Training helps, especially with plausible defenses, but the accuracy outcomes are just not that good for police in general. The guns are last resort tactics.
 Or should be.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 25, 2016, 06:29:58 pm

A knife can penetrate a ballistic vest.




Not a pocket knife thats still folded.

The video editing software required to rotoscope a weapon in someones hand is easy to find, but the process takes time.
You would think they would be done by now.


and were they not initially saying that Shelby's single shot was another accidental discharge?






Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: erfalf on October 26, 2016, 07:06:51 am
Do we really have that much confidence in the diabolical nature of the police force here that we are proposing manipulation of video/photo evidence? Does anyone here really think they are up to that level of aptitude. This is a city agency keep in mind. Having worked for one, I expect the cunningness of most to be more in line with that of a stumbling toddler.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on October 26, 2016, 11:37:22 am
Do we really have that much confidence in the diabolical nature of the police force here that we are proposing manipulation of video/photo evidence? Does anyone here really think they are up to that level of aptitude. This is a city agency keep in mind. Having worked for one, I expect the cunningness of most to be more in line with that of a stumbling toddler.


DPS outsources it:

Dash cam video has simply relied on where the spotlight and headlights are pointed for the only thing that tends to show up on video. This has led to OHP shipping out dash cam video needed for internal use and criminal investigations to a computer imaging professional to enhance the image to get the evidence needed.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/ohp-patrol-cars-getting-more-lights/67035258

Surely there's a Tulsa officer with a computer savvy 12-year-old that could breeze through it.  ;)

You can even "enhance" video yourself.  Turn down the gamma in the helicopter video of the Crutcher killing until you can see Officer Shelby's overhead light bar on and flashing.





Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: CoffeeBean on October 26, 2016, 08:35:39 pm
The TPD deadly force policy is problematic:

Quote
Deadly force may be used if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses an imminent threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or others . . .

Importantly, the policy never defines "imminent threat," but it does have a definition for "immediate threat." The policy does not say if the two are used interchangeably or have different meanings:

Quote
IMMEDIATE THREAT – a significant threat that an officer reasonably believes will result in death or serious physical harm to the officer or others. The threat is not limited to being instantaneous. A person may pose an immediate threat even if they are not at that moment pointing a weapon at the officers or others.

The policy does not define "significant threat" and relies on the subjective belief of the officer, which is contrary to the objective standard governing use of force under the Fourth Amendment.

The officer is not required to consider the totality of the circumstances, another Fourth Amendment standard.

And that's before we even get to the ridiculous sentences.

By sentence number three the policy injects a third term, "instantaneous," again without definition.

Finally, the policy defines "immediate threat" as a threat that's not immediate. I'm not even sure what that means.

If anyone wonders why TPD has questionable shoots, tell them to read the policy.   



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: erfalf on October 27, 2016, 06:15:46 am
Well, apparently BPD felt they needed to get into the mix. I honestly can't recall the last time an officer in this town discharged his/her weapon and it actually led to a death. Seems pretty straight forward and justified in this case as a taser was used first, the officer was beaten and then the suspect was shot. Still thought it was noteworthy enough to mention here. Particularly because he was unarmed (with a weapon other than his fists).

All involved were taken to the hospital for injuries (woman, suspect & officer). The suspect eventually succumbed to his injuries.

And since Bartlesville is Bartlesville (small town) commenters to news stories already know who the suspect was and none have been the least bit surprised that any of this transpired.

http://www.newson6.com/story/33491784/bartlesville-police-osbi-investigating-fatal-officer-involved-shooting


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on October 27, 2016, 10:25:23 am
The TPD deadly force policy is problematic:

Importantly, the policy never defines "imminent threat," but it does have a definition for "immediate threat." The policy does not say if the two are used interchangeably or have different meanings:

The policy does not define "significant threat" and relies on the subjective belief of the officer, which is contrary to the objective standard governing use of force under the Fourth Amendment.

The officer is not required to consider the totality of the circumstances, another Fourth Amendment standard.

And that's before we even get to the ridiculous sentences.

By sentence number three the policy injects a third term, "instantaneous," again without definition.

Finally, the policy defines "immediate threat" as a threat that's not immediate. I'm not even sure what that means.

If anyone wonders why TPD has questionable shoots, tell them to read the policy.   



Policy sometimes has the effect of force of law without the due process of becoming a law.

It could be much much worse:

Chief Assistant District Attorney Howard Neumann told the Greensboro News & Record last week that Law enforcement officers are entitled to use whatever amount of force they deemed necessary to arrest someone they believed committed a crime.
“To charge him would be a violation of my role as a prosecutor,” the D.A. said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/04/brutal-video-shows-white-officer-violently-arresting-black-man-sitting-on-his-mothers-porch/




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on October 27, 2016, 11:45:49 am
Do we really have that much confidence in the diabolical nature of the police force here that we are proposing manipulation of video/photo evidence? Does anyone here really think they are up to that level of aptitude. This is a city agency keep in mind. Having worked for one, I expect the cunningness of most to be more in line with that of a stumbling toddler.

Yes and yes.

We have a history here of diabolical police authority nature. County and city mostly. State authorities aren't as obvious. Practically from the beginning of the city of Tulsa and Creek county. Each generation gets to see first hand how that culture has mutated, migrated and manifested itself. Booze, drugs, prostitution, racism, brutality have all prospered due to complicity by dirty cops. It has yielded bootlegging, a race riot, proliferation of gangs and prostitution. Sometimes the legal system culls a few out when they are too obvious and we all agree that most policing authorities are not involved. But enough are to have confidence that they can and do manipulate evidence.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 27, 2016, 09:47:10 pm
Then you will like this example of "by the book" that resulted in cop-on-cop violence:
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/10/27/washington-d-c-cop-thrown-to-ground-and-punched-in-face-by-maryland-cops-in-case-of-mistaken-identity/

A Maryland cop searching for a shooting suspect described only as a “black man with a hoodie and jeans” ended up pouncing on a black man with a hoodie and jeans walking down the street, slamming him to the ground and handcuffing him while another officer punched him in the face.

Turns out, the man was an off-duty cop.

Prince George’s County police say they have an audio recording of the incident, which proves their officers did everything by the book, which, of course, is not saying much, knowing how “the book” allows them to do as they please.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 28, 2016, 07:50:59 am
Unfortunately, police use of force is a very difficult topic. As an exercise, try to write a better standard. And I dont mean that rhetorically or to try to be a jerk, it's hard to write a standard that both enforces our ideals and alllows police officers to actually do their job.

Objective standards for ethereal ideals are notoriously difficult.  The "reasonable person" standard is an objective legal standard. That has never sat right to me, because an objective test should rarely change - were as the "reasonable person" standard changes moment to moment, person to person, even when all the facts are known. As a result, it is hard to say the actions of an officer weren't "reasonable" to them at the time.

I'm with you, I think we have a real problem at the moment. But the fix isn't easy... as an exercise, actually try drafting and posting something better:


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on October 28, 2016, 09:33:08 am
People are trained and paid to do research, analyze and write those standards. We aren't. I could if you would pay for some more education and and a small stipend.

Seriously, don't let them off the hook. If these standards are being written by administrators in the policing industry and they aren't effective, then try, try again.

I really like your comment about objective standards vs subjective "reasonable man" standards. It means with lower and lower education levels what constitutes "reasonable" is likely to deteriorate over time. Can you imagine standards written to be reasonable to attendees at a political rally? If their candidate is an unreasonable person but manages to gain power, that candidate is the new "reasonable man".


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: CoffeeBean on October 28, 2016, 09:37:22 pm
Unfortunately, police use of force is a very difficult topic. As an exercise, try to write a better standard. And I dont mean that rhetorically or to try to be a jerk, it's hard to write a standard that both enforces our ideals and alllows police officers to actually do their job.

I don't think you're trying to be a jerk, but getting your hands on a better use of force policy is not terribly hard. One of the better policies out there is Las Vegas. You can read it here: http://www.lvmpd.com/Portals/0/OIO/GO-005-14_Use_of_Force.pdf.

And if you think there's a problem with copying another department's policy, then you haven't read many police policy manuals. They are copied and pasted so many times from department to department that its not uncommon to find the names of unrelated agencies scattered throughout a manual.

Point being, the ability to find fault in the prevailing standard is no excuse to end the pursuit of searching for a better one.  


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on October 29, 2016, 10:20:14 am

I'm with you, I think we have a real problem at the moment. But the fix isn't easy...

Even though police numbers say it has never been safer to be a cop (http://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-372025) there is a big gap between the perceptions of the chief and the rank-and-file.



The chief also referred to a Gallup poll published this week which found that 76 percent of Americans have “a great deal” of respect for police in their area. The mark is as high as that poll has been since the 1990s.
“If you think you’re not being supported, you are very, very wrong,” Jordan said. “Your community does support you; they do respect you; they do see the challenges (you face).”


Vs.

Sgt. Brandon Wykoff was chosen by the class to speak during the ceremony. He, too, referenced public negativity and an anti-police sentiment.
“Over the course of this academy on almost a daily basis broadcast across the national news and social media sites were stories of vicious attacks against police officers, simply because we’re police officers,” Wykoff said.



http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/recruits-graduate-from-tulsa-police-academy-still-have-desire-to/article_e5477ed4-03d4-552a-a1ec-042093f9a699.html


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 29, 2016, 02:22:11 pm
Point being, the ability to find fault in the prevailing standard is no excuse to end the pursuit of searching for a better one.  

You win the internets this week.






Police union really doesnt want cops wearing cameras.
http://lawofficer.com/2016/06/oklahoma-city-pd-stops-wearing-body-cameras/
“Today, the Oklahoma City Police Department received the arbitrator’s ruling which ruled on the side of the Union. This ruling included a ‘cease and desist’ order requiring the police department to remove all body-worn cameras off the streets immediately."

Wonder why?

Denver police officer arrested after caught on his own body camera stealing cash from suspect
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/denver-caught-body-camera-stealing-suspect-article-1.2849686


DENVER (CBS4)– A Denver police officer has been arrested, accused of stealing money from a suspect. His body camera apparently caught him taking the cash from a crime scene.
Officer Julian Archuleta was arrested on Friday for investigation of misdemeanor theft, first-degree official misconduct and tampering with physical evidence.
Archuleta was wearing a body camera during the time he searched the suspect’s clothing after it was removed by paramedics on the scene. An unknown amount of cash was discovered and placed on the front passenger seat of the suspect vehicle.

According to a police report, one stack of bills was observed and contained a $100 bill on the outside of the stack. Archuleta was seen separating the $100 bill along with some other bills folded inside the $100 bill, from a stack with a $1 bill on top.
Police said the body camera moves to the passenger seat while Archuleta transferred the large bills to the other hand. When the body camera pans back to the seat, the stack with the $1 bill is observed but no large bills are on the seat.

The report then details how Archuleta rearranged some paperwork on the seat by placing it on top of the remaining bills in an attempt to conceal the cash. Archuleta shines his flashlight on the seat and rearranges the paperwork a second time to completely cover the remaining small bills.

A search warrant is obtained for the suspect vehicle and investigators recover $118 in cash from the front passenger seat, including one $50 bill, two $20 bills, one $5 bill, six $2 bills and 11 $1 bills. There were no $100 bills recovered from the crime lab. The cash, suspected narcotics, firearm and other items were placed into evidence.
While an officer reviewed the body camera video from Archuleta, he observed the $100 bill and realizes it was not collected at the scene by the crime lab and it was not checked in as evidence.

When questioned about the missing cash, Archuleta said he was going to “check his war bag to make sure the money hadn’t slipped into a crevice. About an hour later, Archuleta said he found 12 $100 bills in his war bag and that the money “must have fallen in his bag.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/10/28/officer-arrested-accused-of-stealing-money-from-suspect/






Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: guido911 on November 09, 2016, 03:22:28 pm
I miss Gaspar and guido quite a bit. 



I miss you too


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 10, 2016, 10:26:25 am
I miss you too


Hey!!   So you are listening!!   I thought you might be lurking in the weeds!

Good to hear from you!   I meant it.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: RecycleMichael on November 10, 2016, 11:48:55 am
I speak to guido911 every day on Facebook. I actually look forward to his posts. Shaking my head gives me exercise.
 


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 10, 2016, 12:04:04 pm
I speak to guido911 every day on Facebook. I actually look forward to his posts. Shaking my head gives me exercise.
 


I don't know his facebook name so won't be able to follow him, but good to know he is still active.  Even if still a little delusional...!   Sorry...had to!!


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: guido911 on November 10, 2016, 06:52:29 pm
I speak to guido911 every day on Facebook. I actually look forward to his posts. Shaking my head gives me exercise.
 

Nodding in agreement as much as you do will have that effect.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on November 11, 2016, 11:25:41 am

Anyone remember what happened to the cop who shot his daughters boyfriend to death?




Tulsa Whirled:  The jury found Kepler guilty of two misdemeanor firearm charges and recommended the maximum 6-month sentence for each count.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/deadlocked-jury-forces-mistrial-in-murder-trial-of-former-tulsa/article_42da6e59-1e76-5edf-a861-41f27c69e657.html




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on November 11, 2016, 12:21:50 pm


Tulsa Whirled:  The jury found Kepler guilty of two misdemeanor firearm charges and recommended the maximum 6-month sentence for each count.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/deadlocked-jury-forces-mistrial-in-murder-trial-of-former-tulsa/article_42da6e59-1e76-5edf-a861-41f27c69e657.html




Meanwhile, a black guy who molested several boys gets a sentencing recommendation of 235 years. White guy kills someone and may do one year at most. This makes no sense at all.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: erfalf on November 11, 2016, 01:02:36 pm
Did this not end in a hung jury?

It's not over. Am I right?

Although criticism is fair. It seems hard to fathom that a murder conviction couldn't be reached on a case that appeared (from a decided outsider) to be pretty cut and dry. Didn't this take place at Lake's house? Is there some evidence outside of Kepler's testimony that would make this not certain in the jury's eyes. Was the daughter completely unbelievable?


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on November 11, 2016, 01:46:49 pm
Sounds like they had one juror who could not be swayed.  What a brilliant defense:

“He pulled a gun on me.”

“There was no gun.”

“Well, he reached for his waistband and my training just took over.”

Unreal.

This is one instance where I’m willing to dump on the cop.  There is no way this was accidental or self-defense.  The guy is a cop he knew better.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: swake on November 11, 2016, 02:18:04 pm
Sounds like they had one juror who could not be swayed.  What a brilliant defense:

“He pulled a gun on me.”

“There was no gun.”

“Well, he reached for his waistband and my training just took over.”

Unreal.

This is one instance where I’m willing to dump on the cop.  There is no way this was accidental or self-defense.  The guy is a cop he knew better.

He supposedly also was drunk, but got that suppressed from the jury somehow.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 12, 2016, 04:24:57 pm

I don't know his facebook name so won't be able to follow him, but good to know he is still active.  Even if still a little delusional...!   Sorry...had to!!


The cops that used to post here were told to stop with the SID corruption scandal, but they still lurk in the Shadows.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 12, 2016, 04:30:25 pm
He supposedly also was drunk, but got that suppressed from the jury somehow.


Kepler: "You watch the hands. When he started making that movement, he’s reaching for something. That got my attention.”

No gun was discovered in Lake’s possession or at the scene.

Kepler also testified that he shot wildly in the heat of the moment and under stress.
“I don’t have time to stop and aim,” Kepler said. “I probably shot a little early. When someone’s coming at you with a gun, I don’t necessarily have time to stop and aim.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/shannon-kepler-testifies-he-saw-daughter-s-boyfriend-with-gun/article_970aa86f-8149-59f9-9b97-b2d9726c372e.html

Kepler also said he freaked out when neighbors began emerging from nearby homes after the initial shots, and may have shot at them "in fear of his life" in addition to shooting at his daughter and the victims brother.  It was the later the jury found him guilty of, but chose to make it a misdemeanor instead of the felony.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011796570060


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ed W on November 14, 2016, 03:40:13 pm
Here's an interesting story overnight. It seems Kyle Linscomb thought it was a good idea to strip down to his skivvies, grab his car keys and a gun, then drive along 116th Street North at a reported 60mph over the limit. When Owasso PD tried to stop him, Linscomb started shooting at the cops. The chase continued east through Claremore, where Claremore PD, Rogers County Sheriff's department, and OHP joined the party. Linscomb abandoned his vehicle and took off on foot. He was apprehended a short time later.

Now, I ask you, who HASN'T thought about going for a drive in his boxers?

Seriously, though, this guy was arrested after putting himself, the public, and various law enforcement professionals in danger. He's lucky to be taken alive.

http://m.newson6.com/story.aspx?story=33701242&catId=112042 (http://m.newson6.com/story.aspx?story=33701242&catId=112042)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2016, 05:33:45 pm
Meanwhile, a black guy who molested several boys gets a sentencing recommendation of 235 years. White guy kills someone and may do one year at most. This makes no sense at all.


How long have you lived in the United States of America??  2 weeks....?



Another "I couldn't resist" moment...


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 14, 2016, 07:19:29 pm

This is one instance where I’m willing to dump on the cop.  There is no way this was accidental or self-defense.  The guy is a cop he knew better.

A week of mistrials:

Jurors on Thursday watched Officer Ray Tensing tell investigators in a video that he shot Sam DuBose because he was being “dragged” by DuBose’s car and was “holding on for dear life.”
An expert in video analysis then broke down Tensing’s body camera video for the jury, millisecond by millisecond. Prosecutors said nearly every frame contradicted what Tensing told police.

That breakdown showed Tensing, who at the time was a University of Cincinnati police officer, pull out his gun and aimed it at DuBose’s head when the car wasn't moving. There was no dragging, according to the expert.

"No, he had not been (dragged),” said Grant Fredericks, a forensic video analyst from Spokane, Washington and FBI instructor.
"I was thinking, 'oh my gosh, I'm getting dragged by this guy's car, I don't want to die today,' " Tensing told investigators.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/tensing/2016/11/03/what-expect-thursday-ray-tensing-murder-trial/93199114/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDiyo9qjISg


If it sounds familiar it should.  For years it was a favorite tactic around the country to justify the use of deadly force. Tulsa saw more than its fair share of suspects being shot to death by the theatrics of officers "fearing for their lives" after being "dragged" but actually just refused to let go of the steering wheel.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/officer-s-actions-defended/article_5d37ac49-cff7-557e-8919-a55cbb0fb92f.html

After killing a shoplifter in Sand Springs, Fees joined TPD and began accumulating complaints.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/complaints-against-police-rise/article_92b28458-28c1-5d16-9e7c-7f8e78d9c0af.html

When he pulled a gun on a bartender while drunk, the department stopped ignoring those complaints.  He would later be identified as a gunman on the RSU campus who eventually shot himself.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/claremore/news/osbi-identifies-former-tulsa-police-officer-as-rogers-state-gunman/article_56aafee1-8a59-5749-b27c-db2913be34cf.html


The only difference between this shooting and the countless others excused by Tulsa prosecutors over the years, is the presence of video.




Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 26, 2016, 04:33:46 pm
How police view the mentally ill in Tulsa.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/health/oklahoma-watch-officers-attack-on-schizophrenic-man-with-knife-starts/article_4f85368e-5ba2-5575-b17d-97461dde8662.html


Officers' attack on schizophrenic man with knife starts two-year-long nightmare
During a preliminary hearing, Deputy Dorr was asked whether it makes a difference when a call comes in if the person in question is a mental-health patient. Dorr replied that it does not.

“Then what’s the purpose of the mental health … training that CLEET does?” attorneys asked.
“I don’t know. You know, he’s committed a crime; he’s standing there; he’s armed and barricaded,” Dorr replied. “It doesn’t matter to me if he’s mental health or not.”



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 28, 2016, 02:22:47 pm
The cops that used to post here were told to stop with the SID corruption scandal, but they still lurk in the Shadows.


I love the Shadows!!  I try to lurk in them all the time, but mostly can't resist getting out of them to post here....


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 17, 2016, 08:26:38 pm
Here's an interesting story overnight. It seems Kyle Linscomb thought it was a good idea to strip down to his skivvies, grab his car keys and a gun, then drive along 116th Street North at a reported 60mph over the limit. When Owasso PD tried to stop him, Linscomb started shooting at the cops. The chase continued east through Claremore, where Claremore PD, Rogers County Sheriff's department, and OHP joined the party. Linscomb abandoned his vehicle and took off on foot. He was apprehended a short time later.

People exaggerate in the absence of fact checkers, or competent reporters.



Tulsa Police Officer Steven Jones shot the driver in the upper back after a high-speed chase through residential areas.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/police-identify-suspects-in-tulsa-pursuit-and-officer-involved-shooting/article_96a0c82f-3e83-5d3a-b336-f16859d6ec3e.html
 
"Tulsa Police Officers reported seeing muzzle flash during the pursuit while suspects were hanging out the vehicle window pointing firearms," Ledezma states.
Ledezma also wrote that though McCombs was apprehended with a pistol, it was actually a BB gun.






Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 31, 2016, 08:32:07 pm
Commission aims at reimagining the Tulsa Police Department
When Tulsa voters approved a plan to pay for scores of additional police officers, they created more than just numbers.

They also sparked an opportunity to change the philosophy of the police department, which currently is so busy dealing with pressing calls with too few officers that it doesn’t have a chance to think differently.

Bullchips.

If TPD thinks the culture behind "shoot first, think later, dont worry about consequences because there wont be any" is just a matter of under-staffing, they are lying to themselves.  You have to address the culture before you start culling more into it, otherwise the expression "lipstick on a pig" seems oddly appropriate.

Oh and those staffing numbers; When Councilor Ewing complained that police were being poorly utilized, they did everything short of planting a hooker in his room.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 07, 2017, 07:20:05 pm
I love the Shadows!!  I try to lurk in them all the time, but mostly can't resist getting out of them to post here....

Winning the Public Relations War

A California congressman removed a Missouri student’s painting from the walls of the U.S. Capitol complex Friday, days after presidents of police unions in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Jose and Oakland, Calif. demanded its removal due to its perceived negative portrayal of police.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/06/cops-didnt-like-a-student-painting-hanging-in-the-u-s-capitol-so-a-congressman-took-it-down/
https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_960w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2017-01-05/Bloomberg/05700192.jpg&w=480



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: TeeDub on January 07, 2017, 11:38:32 pm
A California congressman removed a Missouri student’s painting from the walls of the U.S. Capitol complex Friday, days after presidents of police unions in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Jose and Oakland, Calif. demanded its removal due to its perceived negative portrayal of police.


It portrayed police as pigs shooting the public.   

(http://www.trbimg.com/img-586ff14d/turbine/sd-gwarth-1483731328-snap-photo/750/750x422)

That congressman is the only good thing to come out of California in quite a while.    “I’m in the Marine Corps,” he told FoxNews.com. “If you want it done, just call us.”

Thank God for the Marine Corps.   


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on January 08, 2017, 09:54:49 am
But none of the police unions in Missouri? Curious. Its an offensive mural for a public building.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on January 08, 2017, 01:59:55 pm
But none of the police unions in Missouri? Curious. Its an offensive mural for a public building.


Free speech isnt always popular speech.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 09, 2017, 07:50:09 pm

That congressman is the only good thing to come out of California in quite a while.    “I’m in the Marine Corps,” he told FoxNews.com. “If you want it done, just call us.”


...or an undisciplined rogue trampling the freedoms of the very Americans he swore to defend, at the behest of thin-skinned police unions who cry like babies because they cant take criticism.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 10, 2017, 07:35:23 pm
(http://www.trbimg.com/img-586ff14d/turbine/sd-gwarth-1483731328-snap-photo/750/750x422)



Painting rehung on Capitol Hill by Congressional Black Caucus — then taken down again

Rep. Dave Reichert (R-Wash.) warned that rehanging the painting “could result in the [death] of another police officer.”


http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/01/10/cops-as-pigs-painting-rehung-on-capitol-hill-by-congressional-black-caucus-then-taken-down-again/







Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: rebound on January 18, 2017, 12:25:02 pm

This came across Apple News this morning and I thought it was worth adding to the thread here.  Take it for what it is worth. (Tulsa gets a shout-out in the article)

"BuzzFeed News reviewed 62 incidents of video footage contradicting an officer’s statement in a police report or testimony. From traffic stops to fatal force, these cases reveal how cops are incentivized to lie — and why they get away with it."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/blue-lies-matter?utm_term=.wo1q1K77Y#.orR5nExxL (https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/blue-lies-matter?utm_term=.wo1q1K77Y#.orR5nExxL)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 06, 2017, 12:15:46 am
Tulsa World:  Paranoid Milwaukee County Sheriff "Preempts Possible Assault" from man who shook his head at him.


This week, a 24-year-old Milwaukee man filed a lawsuit against Clarke alleging he had sheriff's deputies detain and question him after a flight from Dallas last month because, while boarding, the man shook his head at Clarke, who was wearing Dallas Cowboys gear on a day the team played the Packers. Clarke said afterward that "he reserves the reasonable right to pre-empt a possible assault" and mocked his accuser on the sheriff's office's Facebook page, calling him a "snowflake" and writing, "if Sheriff Clarke were to really mess with you, you wouldn't be around to whine about it."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/ap/milwaukee-sheriff-s-star-rises-but-he-remains-polarizing/article_bb9f606b-67b6-5208-a8b6-7bad41bf3940.html

http://fox6now.com/2017/02/02/breaking-attorney-for-man-detained-at-airport-after-shaking-head-at-sheriff-clarke-files-suit/
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/investigations/daniel-bice/2017/01/25/bice-auditors-investigate-complaint-against-sheriff-clarke/97006818/


The lawsuit says on January 15th, Dan Black was at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in Texas, where he boarded a flight headed to Milwaukee. While boarding, Black saw a man that looked like Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke, wearing Dallas Cowboys gear. Black asked the man if he was Sheriff Clarke, and Clarke responded that he was. Black then moved towards the rear of the plane and shook his head. Sheriff Clarke then asked Black if he had a problem. Black shook his head no, and took a seat in the rear of the plane. The suit says there was no interaction between Black and Clarke during the flight.


When they landed in Milwaukee, he was met by a group of six uniformed deputies and two dogs, all of whom were accompanied by the sheriff.
The lawsuit says two of the deputy sheriffs arrested Black, and he was escorted to an unoccupied waiting area, where he was "interrogated, and questioned about his political opinions for about 15 minutes" before he was escorted out of the airport.

Sheriff Clarke has said Milwaukee County has no authority to investigate him or enforce any sanction against him.

Clarke has criticized Black on the county website and Facebook page (http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/investigations/daniel-bice/2017/01/18/bice-hassle-me-your-own-risk-clarke-tells-critics/96719322/) for the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office.

"Next time he or anyone else pulls this stunt on a plane they may get knocked out," said one  Facebook post. (https://www.facebook.com/MilwaukeeCountySheriff/posts/10154659733950189)

"The sheriff said he does not have to wait for some goof to assault him. He reserves the reasonable right to pre-empt a possible assault."

That was followed by a  Facebook meme with a picture of Black (https://www.facebook.com/MilwaukeeCountySheriff/photos/a.88820395188.115633.83503235188/10154663044105189) that read:  "Cheer up, Snowflake. If Sheriff Clarke were to really harass you, you wouldn't be around to whine about it."



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 11, 2017, 07:09:28 pm
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14562518/trump-crime-police-orders

... developing a strategy, in coordination with local, state, and federal agencies, to prosecute individuals who commit violent crimes against police, as well as reviewing whether existing laws go far enough in protecting police from violent crimes.

As it stands now, "resisting," interfering" and "assaulting" an officer are what police charge you with when they leave marks on your face; Anyone who doubts that need only view the booking mugshots of persons so charged.

The so-called "President" further institutionalizes thuggery with another battery of knee-jerk executive orders.

Quote
VINCENT WARREN: Yeah, those three executive orders are pretty much right out of the National Fraternal Order of Police playbook. The sum total of those three orders means massive new resources going to law enforcement on the federal, state and local level. The order that has to deal with police officers, that you were mentioning, really is the beginnings of what we’re calling a blue lives matter regime. We’ve been seeing this in states where there are increased penalties that people—criminal penalties for assaulting, sometimes even insulting, police officers, the idea that—built on the idea that if you’re black or if you’re gay or if you’re a woman and someone assaults you, that it is worse and there should be penalty enhancement for that. We’re seeing that for police officers, which doesn’t make sense.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/10/trump_launches_blue_lives_matter_regime


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 11, 2017, 07:11:36 pm
This came across Apple News this morning and I thought it was worth adding to the thread here.  Take it for what it is worth. (Tulsa gets a shout-out in the article)

"BuzzFeed News reviewed 62 incidents of video footage contradicting an officer’s statement in a police report or testimony. From traffic stops to fatal force, these cases reveal how cops are incentivized to lie — and why they get away with it."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/blue-lies-matter?utm_term=.wo1q1K77Y#.orR5nExxL (https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/blue-lies-matter?utm_term=.wo1q1K77Y#.orR5nExxL)

For much of modern American history, police officers were considered, by most judges and jurors, to be the most reliable narrators in a courtroom — professional and neutral arbiters of facts. The increasing prevalence of camera footage eroded that bedrock of the justice system, wiping out powers long held by law enforcement. Within the last half decade, a new reality has set in for cops, lawyers, and judges: Videos have replaced police reports and testimony as the most credible version of events, proving time and again, with increasing frequency, that police officers lie.

Why do they do it? The main reason they do it, historically and now,   is they can get away with it  (https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/blue-lies-matter) .



Oh, there's no bodycam video because:

I forgot to charge my camera
I forgot to turn on my camera
I forgot how to turn on my camera
I forgot to take it to work
It fell off
The bad guy knocked it off
the bad guy pointed a laser at it
The K9 Officer ate it
Something got on the lens
My computer isnt compatible
This thing records video?

Fortunately the switch to bodycams will make it easier to "malfunction" much of that video.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 14, 2017, 10:48:40 pm
Remember when it was just the Sheriff's office embarrassing us on "reality TV"?
I mean, you kinda expect that from deputies, but...


When you're too embarrassed to have your police department on TV.

Cop Reality TV Show Leaves Tulsa Over Racial Profiling?
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/cop-reality-tv-show-leaves-tulsa-over-racial-profiling-video

Video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPTSg6MUV-U


Not that the department didnt try to milk it for sympathy:

"This particular video reveals how quick a common encounter with individuals can turn into a life and death fight," the post reads at lawofficer.com. "In this video, the suspect had his hand completely around a gun and because of training, conditioning and a backing officer  the presence of a film crew   (fixed it for you), the suspect and/or the officer is alive today."


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/video-a-e-s-live-pd-shows-tulsa-officers-intense/article_622b9fa1-9216-5beb-8139-45053d44689b.html


OK, maybe we cant have a film crew on every corner to remind the cops to behave.  How about if every citizen had a camera?
...and the ability to instantly send to some group like, oh, The ACLU, video of those that dont know how to behave?

http://acluok.org/mobile-justice-ok-2/


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2017, 02:29:51 pm
Wisconsin is turning into Oklahoma. Kansas.  And Mississippi.

It used to be such a nice place...  I really did like the old Wisconsin!



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on February 18, 2017, 09:16:22 am
I don't know why you posted that, but I can say it was ripe fruit waiting for the reapers. Very rural, religious, agricultural. Two large cities, Milwaukee and Madison. Though there are 70 colleges,  only one upper level college at Madison iirc, and lots of backwoods guys who love their guns and dogs. Young educateds flee the state. The people living there were not from anywhere else so low racial diversity except for Native Americans and whoever the Lutherans sponsored. Probably Hmong. IOW, it was already Oklahoma but had flown under the radar. Easily manipulated and exploited. My wife and her family were from there. Gorgeous geography but for quality of life and enlightenment, I prefer Minnesota.

At least that was how I experienced the state.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2017, 05:55:52 pm
I don't know why you posted that, but I can say it was ripe fruit waiting for the reapers. Very rural, religious, agricultural. Two large cities, Milwaukee and Madison. Though there are 70 colleges,  only one upper level college at Madison iirc, and lots of backwoods guys who love their guns and dogs. Young educateds flee the state. The people living there were not from anywhere else so low racial diversity except for Native Americans and whoever the Lutherans sponsored. Probably Hmong. IOW, it was already Oklahoma but had flown under the radar. Easily manipulated and exploited. My wife and her family were from there. Gorgeous geography but for quality of life and enlightenment, I prefer Minnesota.

At least that was how I experienced the state.


Yeah, probably true....most of my direct experience was with city dwellers.  And then I saw several Harley employees on tv a few days ago and really was disgusted by the ignorance they showed.   Oklahoma in scope and magnitude.





Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 18, 2017, 06:45:24 pm
“Your war is here.”

Is Blue Lives Matter a Racist Hate Group?  (http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/blue-lives-matter-racist-hate-group)
The pro-cop, Trump-linked movement’s main Facebook community is a cesspool of racist rants and violent threats.


Oklahoma is about to sign a "Blue Lives Matter (More Than You)" law:

OKLAHOMA CITY, OK - State Rep. Casey Murdock today praised the passage of his Blue Lives Matter Bill in the Oklahoma House of Representatives Judiciary – Criminal Justice & Corrections Committee.
House Bill 1306 creates the Blue Lives Matter in Oklahoma Act of 2017. It provides that any person convicted of, or who pleads guilty or nolo contendere to murder in the first degree of a law enforcement officer, correctional officer or corrections employee while in the performance of their duties shall be punished by death or life in prison without parole.

The bill is virtually identical to other states where police unions wield political power.

Rep. David Bowen, D-Milwaukee, said it was unnecessary and intended to mock the Black Lives Matter movement.
"If you do target a police officer, you will be punished to the full extent of the law. That already happens," he said. "Let`s actually do something proactive, work together, to address these things, address these situations."

http://fox6now.com/2016/07/11/blue-lives-matter-bill-wisconsin-lawmaker-wants-to-make-the-targeting-of-officers-a-hate-crime/




Why Blue Lives Matter Is Just as Dangerous as White Lives Matter (http://www.complex.com/life/2016/09/blue-lives-matter-bill)



“The Fraternal Order of Police is one of the driving forces behind the cynical and divisive legislation known as ‘Blue Lives Matter’ — a bill threatening the movement to hold police accountable,” Ms. Jackson’s email reads. “From its name to the legislative details, Blue Lives Matter laws are intended to antagonize and discredit efforts for racial justice and police accountability by dividing the American people with a fallacious choice between protecting Black lives or police officers.”

“They (Blue Lives Matter bills) group the occupation of the police officer with historically oppressed identity groups in order to classify any harm inflicted onto police officers as a hate crime,” Ms. Jackson writes. “Here’s the problem: being a police officer is an occupation, not an identity. This is a slap in the face to the decades of fighting advocates have done to procure hate crime protections for marginalized groups, and as we’ve seen in recent protests, police are known to embellish their claims of confrontation with Black folks.

“Activists have already faced constant backlash from law enforcement — government surveillance, excessive jail time, tear gassing, and being physically beaten by police. In the hands of local law enforcement, these new laws could mean more trumped up charges and longer sentences for protesters,” she writes.


http://www.ColorofChange.org



Disrespectful:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Blue_Lives_Matter_flag.svg/320px-Blue_Lives_Matter_flag.svg.png)





Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 18, 2017, 06:59:34 pm
“Your war is here.”

Is Blue Lives Matter a Racist Hate Group?  (http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/blue-lives-matter-racist-hate-group)
The pro-cop, Trump-linked movement’s main Facebook community is a cesspool of racist rants and violent threats.


Oklahoma is about to sign a "Blue Lives Matter (More Than You)" law:

OKLAHOMA CITY, OK - State Rep. Casey Murdock today praised the passage of his Blue Lives Matter Bill in the Oklahoma House of Representatives Judiciary – Criminal Justice & Corrections Committee.
House Bill 1306 creates the Blue Lives Matter in Oklahoma Act of 2017. It provides that any person convicted of, or who pleads guilty or nolo contendere to murder in the first degree of a law enforcement officer, correctional officer or corrections employee while in the performance of their duties shall be punished by death or life in prison without parole.

The bill is virtually identical to other states where police unions wield political power.

Rep. David Bowen, D-Milwaukee, said it was unnecessary and intended to mock the Black Lives Matter movement.
"If you do target a police officer, you will be punished to the full extent of the law. That already happens," he said. "Let`s actually do something proactive, work together, to address these things, address these situations."

http://fox6now.com/2016/07/11/blue-lives-matter-bill-wisconsin-lawmaker-wants-to-make-the-targeting-of-officers-a-hate-crime/




Why Blue Lives Matter Is Just as Dangerous as White Lives Matter (http://www.complex.com/life/2016/09/blue-lives-matter-bill)



“The Fraternal Order of Police is one of the driving forces behind the cynical and divisive legislation known as ‘Blue Lives Matter’ — a bill threatening the movement to hold police accountable,” Ms. Jackson’s email reads. “From its name to the legislative details, Blue Lives Matter laws are intended to antagonize and discredit efforts for racial justice and police accountability by dividing the American people with a fallacious choice between protecting Black lives or police officers.”

“They (Blue Lives Matter bills) group the occupation of the police officer with historically oppressed identity groups in order to classify any harm inflicted onto police officers as a hate crime,” Ms. Jackson writes. “Here’s the problem: being a police officer is an occupation, not an identity. This is a slap in the face to the decades of fighting advocates have done to procure hate crime protections for marginalized groups, and as we’ve seen in recent protests, police are known to embellish their claims of confrontation with Black folks.

“Activists have already faced constant backlash from law enforcement — government surveillance, excessive jail time, tear gassing, and being physically beaten by police. In the hands of local law enforcement, these new laws could mean more trumped up charges and longer sentences for protesters,” she writes.


http://www.ColorofChange.org



Disrespectful:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Blue_Lives_Matter_flag.svg/320px-Blue_Lives_Matter_flag.svg.png)






Screw you and your cop hatred!


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: TeeDub on February 18, 2017, 09:41:57 pm


I would get upset, but I am too full of white privilege to be any good to your organization.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: AquaMan on February 19, 2017, 11:25:34 am
Yeah, its a problem. Pity me. I am white, old, educated, underemployed, make too much for welfare and too little to get by. The repubs want to reduce my SS and take away Medicare. At least I'm not fat and driving a Harley, but if they ever find out I'm left handed....I'm toast. Don't tell, Ok?


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 12, 2017, 06:15:14 pm
Blue Lives Matter
More Than Yours (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/rep-regina-goodwin-schools-panhandle-lawmaker-who-thought-blue-lives/article_f5265628-3ec8-545c-9104-ea5efc916627.html)


OKLAHOMA CITY — State Rep. Casey Murdock, a Republican from the far western edge of the Panhandle at Felt, said it didn’t occur to him that a bill called “The Blue Lives Matter in Oklahoma Act” might be interpreted as having racial overtones.

Rep. Regina Goodwin, from Tulsa’s near north side, informed Murdock otherwise.

Murdock’s House Bill 1306 attempts to statutorily impose the greatest penalty possible — death or, in the bill’s amended form, life without parole — on those found guilty of killing a law officer.

Not many members quibbled with that, although several said the change seemed unnecessary given that no Oklahoma court has sentenced a cop killer to less than life without parole in at least a decade.

The name of the bill, though, revealed vast differences in the way House members see the world.

“For (Murdock) to say ‘Blue Lives Matter’ didn’t have anything to do with ‘Black Lives Matter’ is disingenuous, in my opinion,” said Goodwin, a Democrat. “We’re all human beings, and if all life matters, why are we pushing for the death penalty for some and not for others?”

Goodwin, who cited the deaths of “innocent people” at the hands of law officers and included Tulsans Jeremy Lake and Terence Crutcher as examples, asked whether Murdock was equally willing to apply the death penalty to law officers who kill unarmed civilians.

Murdock said he was not.

Goodwin, one of four black House members, tried to explain her perspective.

“I’m also concerned about officers trying to get home safely,” she said. “But can any of you possibly imagine, when you have an interaction with an officer, the first thought is, ‘How do I get home safely?’

“I’ve never … been arrested, but on three occasions I’ve had a gun pointed in my face by a law officer,” Goodwin said. “I was just a black woman in America. You say, ‘Put on a uniform. Stand in (a law officer’s) shoes.’ I respect that. But respect our perspective, too.”

Some of Goodwin’s mostly white, mostly male colleagues defended the bill as a way to support “our boys in blue” and “our men in blue,” which irritated at least one or two of the few women on the floor, particularly since Wednesday was International Women’s Day.

Several of the bill’s supporters seemed miffed and even outraged that it had even been challenged.

“This is ridiculous,” said Rep. John Bennett, R-Sallisaw. “We’re debating whether to vote for a bill that supports our boys in blue or brown. It really shows the direction society is going today. There’s no more rule of law, and so we have to come up with bills like that.

“I take personal offense, have to stand up to debate this,” Bennett said. “(Law officers) have to worry every day about being shot in the face because of some thug.”

“I don’t have a racist bone in my body,” Murdock said. “I thought that was the most neutral name I could call it. This is not about color. I want you to know this has nothing to do with color.”

The term “Blue Lives Matter” became common after the Black Lives Matter movement began criticizing officer-involved shootings of blacks and other minorities, several of whom were unarmed.

Some people, in turn, have blamed Black Lives Matter for attacks on law officers.

Murdock said his bill was prompted by some of those attacks and by the death of an acquaintance who was shot and stomped on by lawbreakers he was trying to arrest.

He originally proposed leaving the death penalty as the only sentencing possibility available for people convicted of killing law officers but was persuaded to also allow life without parole and, in cases of “an overwhelming amount of mitigating evidence,” life with the possibility of parole.

“When police officer puts on a uniform, he puts a target on his back,” Murdock said. “I’m not saying their lives are more important. What I’m saying is, when a police officer walks out of his home, he knows he may not come home. What this bill is saying, when they do leave and something happens to them, they know their killer will be brought to justice and receive the maximum penalty.”

HB 1306 passed 72-23 and now goes to the Senate.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 12, 2017, 06:17:52 pm
32 Blue Lives Matter Bills Have Been Introduced Across 14 States This Year

The wave of legislation exposes an appetite to provide political sanctuary to an already protected class. Including police officers in hate crime statutes is legally redundant, or even counterproductive, creating deeper divisions between police and the communities they serve. All 50 states, according to the Anti-Defamation League, have statutes that automatically increase the penalties for violent attacks on police.
“So the truth is that including police in hate crime laws is merely a political statement - and an unnecessary one at that.”

A Louisiana police chief said in January that anyone who resists arrest could be charged with a hate crime under the state’s new law (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/blue-black-lives-matter-police-bills-states_us_58b61488e4b0780bac2e31b8).
Videos of police brutality commonly include officers shouting “stop resisting!” as they pummel a defenseless - and not resisting - victim. Charges of resisting arrest or assaulting an officer often follow.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 19, 2017, 05:53:38 pm
Police Chases: Anything Goes

Month-old dashcam video (http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Tulsa-police-vehicle-hits-suspect-fleeing-on-foot-in-pursuit-that-ended-with-officerinvolved-shooting-31892400) shows chase ending with car rammed, one suspect shot in the back, another run over from behind.




A month after that, same thing, but this one was fatal:

Tulsa woman suspected in crime spree dies after police car runs her over following shootout
A woman wanted for a string of gun-related crimes was killed Saturday afternoon when an officer intentionally ran over her in south Tulsa after a vehicular chase.
Dickson presented a handgun, Ashley said, which was when at least two officers shot at her.
Officers roped off the scene in the 8900 block of South Harvard Avenue outside of Jenks East Elementary School.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 19, 2017, 06:11:52 pm
Police Chases: Anything Goes

Month-old dashcam video (http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Tulsa-police-vehicle-hits-suspect-fleeing-on-foot-in-pursuit-that-ended-with-officerinvolved-shooting-31892400) shows chase ending with car rammed, one suspect shot in the back, another run over from behind.




A month after that, same thing, but this one was fatal:

Tulsa woman suspected in crime spree dies after police car runs her over following shootout
A woman wanted for a string of gun-related crimes was killed Saturday afternoon when an officer intentionally ran over her in south Tulsa after a vehicular chase.
Dickson presented a handgun, Ashley said, which was when at least two officers shot at her.
Officers roped off the scene in the 8900 block of South Harvard Avenue outside of Jenks East Elementary School.


Chalk one up for the good guys. One less thug on the street or to support while they are in jail.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 20, 2017, 06:26:48 pm
Chalk one up for the good guys. One less thug on the street or to support while they are in jail.

Now come on, there have to be better options than someone playing Mad Max in a school zone.

Dickson reportedly fled in a pickup truck as a passenger. She then bailed from the truck in the 8900 block of South Harvard Avenue and allegedly pulled a handgun, and Leatherman and Johnson fired at her. Grafton then ran her over.

When something like this happened in Arizona the taxpayers were sued for $850,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s72ueP2K84

She was no angel, but like clockwork the TPD spin machine began to demonize her to justify themselves; saying she must have been in the mafia.  No evidence leading to that conclusion, just that 'she must have been.'


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 20, 2017, 07:04:35 pm
Now come on, there have to be better options than someone playing Mad Max in a school zone.

Dickson reportedly fled in a pickup truck as a passenger. She then bailed from the truck in the 8900 block of South Harvard Avenue and allegedly pulled a handgun, and Leatherman and Johnson fired at her. Grafton then ran her over.

When something like this happened in Arizona the taxpayers were sued for $850,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s72ueP2K84

She was no angel, but like clockwork the TPD spin machine began to demonize her to justify themselves; saying she must have been in the mafia.  No evidence leading to that conclusion, just that 'she must have been.'


Point a gun at me, and you will wind up with a good portion of 19 9mm rounds inside or passed through you. You are a suspect in several armed robberies and you point a gun at a cop, sorry, game over.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 20, 2017, 07:13:06 pm
Point a gun at me, and you will wind up with a good portion of 19 9mm rounds inside or passed through you. You are a suspect in several armed robberies and you point a gun at a cop, sorry, game over.

Grafton then ran her over.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 20, 2017, 07:39:29 pm

Grafton then ran her over.


See post #128.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: patric on March 21, 2017, 01:46:34 pm
Quote

When something like this happened in Arizona the taxpayers were sued for $850,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s72ueP2K84



OK ill weigh in.  Arizona is as good a model of policing as it is model government.
What happened right in front of Jenks East Elementary School was outrageous.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 21, 2017, 07:06:46 pm
Point a gun at me, and you will wind up with a good portion of 19 9mm rounds inside or passed through you. You are a suspect in several armed robberies and you point a gun at a cop, sorry, game over.


-- sidestepping the fact that she "presented" a firearm.  Not pointed, brandished, or even fired, before TPD opened up with a volley.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Ibanez on March 22, 2017, 01:29:32 pm

-- sidestepping the fact that she "presented" a firearm.  Not pointed, brandished, or even fired, before TPD opened up with a volley.


I'm sure she just wanted some advice from the officers on how to properly clean and oil the handgun.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 23, 2017, 09:02:39 am

Grafton then ran her over.



Belt AND suspenders!



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: TeeDub on March 24, 2017, 06:56:05 am

I knew the penalty for having a firearm in a "firearm free" school zone was harsh, but man....   Who would have thought they would bring down the hammer at 45 mph?

Oh.   And if you pull a gun on cops, you should expect to die.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 27, 2017, 07:07:49 pm
I'm sure she just wanted some advice from the officers on how to properly clean and oil the handgun.

So its curious why the police spokesman chose to describe it that way.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 18, 2017, 06:27:51 pm
Good news:  Soon your family may be able to sue other taxpayers (http://www.fox23.com/video?videoId=512430483&videoVersion=1.0)
 if police hold back EMSA or medical aid while you bleed out.



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 30, 2017, 06:17:00 pm
“It devalues people when you minimize the importance of their stories,” Lopez said. “You can call them anecdotes, but, for example in the Ferguson case ― when we have an officer writing down in his own report that after he went out and arrested a woman who’d called in on a domestic violence call, and he arrested her for an occupancy permit violation, and she says ‘I’ll never call the police again (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doj-police-reform-jeff-sessions-chicago_us_58f50a77e4b0da2ff86254cf?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009) , even if I’m being killed’ ― that many be an anecdote, but that’s an important story to tell.”


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 15, 2017, 09:36:28 pm
Cato Institute: (https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-it-will-be-very-hard-prosecute-cop-who-shot-terence-crutcher) As long as the question is whether the cops can piece together vague excuses to justify their fear as being objectively reasonable, particularly in light of the great deference paid the police by the courts and public, there will be no incentive to not kill when the opportunity presents itself...
They will shoot first, shoot prematurely. They will shoot not because of an actual threat, but because of the fear of a potential threat, a huge step removed. Yet, the ability to craft a viable excuse for fear is all that’s required as a matter of law to protect the cop from culpability for his kill.










https://blog.simplejustice.us/2016/07/30/the-legal-standard-that-must-not-be-named/



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: guido911 on May 16, 2017, 12:11:01 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_6Y371XcAAPKWR.jpg)


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 16, 2017, 06:48:15 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_6Y371XcAAPKWR.jpg



FBI data showing drop in police deaths undermines 'war on cops' theory (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/16/us-police-deaths-decline-2015-fbi-data)

FBI Confirms 2015 Was One Of The Safest Years Ever For Cops (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fbi-police-deaths_us_573b53aae4b0646cbeeb02b8)

There is no 'War on Cops'—In fact, it's never been safer to be one (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/8/1546484/-There-is-no-War-on-Cops-In-fact-it-s-never-been-safer-to-be-one)

It’s safer than ever to be a cop, so why are they killing more people than ever before? (http://www.reddirtreport.com/prairie-opinions/it%E2%80%99s-safer-ever-be-cop-so-why-are-they-killing-more-people-ever)

Trump order won’t make cops safer, but might make it a felony to yell at them (https://thinkprogress.org/trump-order-wont-make-cops-safer-but-might-make-it-a-felony-to-yell-at-them-6ebfa58dae47)


But hey, lets pander to powerful unions ans special interest groups that peddle alternate facts.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: guido911 on May 16, 2017, 10:56:26 pm


FBI data showing drop in police deaths undermines 'war on cops' theory (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/16/us-police-deaths-decline-2015-fbi-data)

FBI Confirms 2015 Was One Of The Safest Years Ever For Cops (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fbi-police-deaths_us_573b53aae4b0646cbeeb02b8)

There is no 'War on Cops'—In fact, it's never been safer to be one (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/8/1546484/-There-is-no-War-on-Cops-In-fact-it-s-never-been-safer-to-be-one)

It’s safer than ever to be a cop, so why are they killing more people than ever before? (http://www.reddirtreport.com/prairie-opinions/it%E2%80%99s-safer-ever-be-cop-so-why-are-they-killing-more-people-ever)

Trump order won’t make cops safer, but might make it a felony to yell at them (https://thinkprogress.org/trump-order-wont-make-cops-safer-but-might-make-it-a-felony-to-yell-at-them-6ebfa58dae47)


But hey, lets pander to powerful unions ans special interest groups that peddle alternate facts.

I am looking at more recent facts...

Quote
(CNN)At least 64 law enforcement officers have been shot and killed this year, the most in five years, according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.
The 2016 shootings have spanned the nation, from California to Massachusetts.
They've exceeded the annual average of police shooting deaths over the past 10 years, 53. And this year's total is higher than the number of firearms-related police deaths in 2015. According to the fund, firearms were responsible for 41 of 123 officer fatalities in 2015, one of the safest years for officers on record.

The decade's highest total came in 2011, with 73 officers shot dead.
This year's shooting deaths include an officer on her first day on the job and a sheriff's corporal who was about to retire.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/14/us/police-officers-fatal-shooting-line-duty-nationwide/


Quote
Death by gunfire was, once again, the leading cause of death for officers who were killed on duty. A total of 64 officers were killed by gunfire – up from 39 in 2015, according to statistics obtained by Breitbart Texas from the Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP). This represents an increase of over 60 percent over the prior year.

“The 61 percent increase in law enforcement officers shot and killed in 2016 versus 2015 and a 53 percent overall increase in officers murdered in the performance of duty are deeply troubling statistics,” ODMP Director of Research Steven Weiss told Breitbart Texas. “Included in that statistic is a disturbing increase in officers killed in ‘ambush-style’ murders, such as the incidents in Dallas and Des Moines.”

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/01/01/2016-closes-140-cops-killed-line-duty/

So F off.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Conan71 on May 17, 2017, 08:42:36 am


FBI data showing drop in police deaths undermines 'war on cops' theory (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/16/us-police-deaths-decline-2015-fbi-data)

FBI Confirms 2015 Was One Of The Safest Years Ever For Cops (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fbi-police-deaths_us_573b53aae4b0646cbeeb02b8)

There is no 'War on Cops'—In fact, it's never been safer to be one (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/8/1546484/-There-is-no-War-on-Cops-In-fact-it-s-never-been-safer-to-be-one)

It’s safer than ever to be a cop, so why are they killing more people than ever before? (http://www.reddirtreport.com/prairie-opinions/it%E2%80%99s-safer-ever-be-cop-so-why-are-they-killing-more-people-ever)

Trump order won’t make cops safer, but might make it a felony to yell at them (https://thinkprogress.org/trump-order-wont-make-cops-safer-but-might-make-it-a-felony-to-yell-at-them-6ebfa58dae47)


But hey, lets pander to powerful unions ans special interest groups that peddle alternate facts.

Try and pass this crap off on Mason Moore’s wife & three children, I’m sure they are thinking about what a safe occupation this is and how Moore probably had it coming to him.  He was a life-long buddy of one of our new friends out here in Cimarron.  My wife and I knew there was something terribly wrong with Byron when he showed up for our Weds. breakfast meeting this morning.

Also note people that the links cited by Vashta are from Daily Koz, HuffPo, Think Progress, and The Guardian.  The piece from the Red Dirt Report is an op-ed with questionable conclusions.

Not every cop gets it right and certainly not every shooting by a cop is justified, but what is with the left’s mission to marginalize those who literally are willing to take a bullet for someone else?

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/crime/deputy-shot-and-killed-near-three-forks-father-and-son/article_ed3f7f9e-7b33-562c-bcc2-cffce03182dd.html



Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: guido911 on May 17, 2017, 01:50:52 pm
Quote
...but what is with the left’s mission to marginalize those who literally are willing to take a bullet for someone else?


This POS would be the first person to call a cop if he was faced with any problem--then of course complain about it.


Title: Re: The Tulsa Police "War"
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 18, 2017, 06:37:02 pm
Try and pass this crap off on Mason Moore’s wife & three children, I’m sure they are thinking about what a safe occupation this is and how Moore probably had it coming to him.  He was a life-long buddy of one of our new friends out here in Cimarron.  My wife and I knew there was something terribly wrong with Byron when he showed up for our Weds. breakfast meeting this morning.

Also note people that the links cited by Vashta are from Daily Koz, HuffPo, Think Progress, and The Guardian.  The piece from the Red Dirt Report is an op-ed with questionable conclusions.

Not every cop gets it right and certainly not every shooting by a cop is justified, but what is with the left’s mission to marginalize those who literally are willing to take a bullet for someone else?

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/crime/deputy-shot-and-killed-near-three-forks-father-and-son/article_ed3f7f9e-7b33-562c-bcc2-cffce03182dd.html


I am sorry you lost a friend, and I can see why your response is such an emotional one.

"He had it coming" or "he caused his own death" are common rationalizations in almost every homicide committed by police, but nowhere in those articles did I see anything remotely similar to your claim with regard to homicides of police.

Those numbers come from the FBI.  If you dispute them, that's the direction you should be shaking your finger.