The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Does anyone else think the Centenniel Green downtown is pretty terrible?  It's just an empty, unprogrammed patch of grass that breaks up our premier streetwall.  There's no trees, no shade, it's hot AF, no swingset, no real public art, nothing to attract anyone to that site.

Maybe all it needs is some shade and seating.  Or throw in some engaging public art or a swingset or a waterfountain for kiddos or something.  Right now it makes Boston Ave actively worse - I'd almost rather have an empty building than what it is now. 

There are plans to make improvements and it is going to host a beautiful art exhibit in 2018.

Could we get the Occupy Tulsa guys to come back until the improvements are done?  At least we would have some entertainment.

Many are still there...wandering around downtown with carts.

Yeah, let's blame a park on people not taking care of the homeless.  ::)

Yeah, let's misunderstand a post and use a dumbassed emoticon.

"There are plans to make improvements and it is going to host a beautiful art exhibit in 2018."

Any place we can see these plans online? Are they being done by the City or private entities?

The location is perfect for something neat and new downtown, even as simple as a dog park or a shaded area for people to eat lunch. And with the Meridian opening up in the next year, there will be more people living next door. Would love to see what folks have in mind for that space.

Any explanation of why the fountain isn't running?  I haven't noticed it on in a while.

RM, I assume you mean the TUAC project?

I took them some calamari.

Then I pronounced them Octupie Tulsa

Trees, trees, trees!  This poor park desperately needs trees!  The kind that will grow into large canopy trees.  Once you have some shade, you can add some benches, tables, chairs, a bandshell, whatever you like.  If you had trees, you could maybe add a small coffee shop or smoothy shack.  But until you have trees, it will remain little more than a place for downtown dogs to poop.

Also, whatever genius picked the black stone/concrete should be forced to sit on it in the summertime.  But even that would be better with...trees!

I recommend deciduous trees to help create a canopy and sense of enclosure.  And some buildings would be nice, too.

(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/C1800.jpg)
Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

Trees would certainly help.

For comparison sake, I always enjoyed Mariano Park in Chicago. It's actually bound on all three sides by streets, and it's roughly 1/10th the size of Centennial, but it has heavy tree cover, and a coffee shop/Gelato shop. It was always difficult to find a bench/table (which there were numerous) every time we went.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.901561,-87.628274,3a,75y,50.06h,90.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRTLmHU4_4_KqWbhG85xF5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LRqLagGLMAc/VM6XpsKWIXI/AAAAAAAAdwQ/suRDh1Itwms/s1600/marianowide.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/89/4d/40/894d40cd8519d8e06822a00f0e4f6944.jpg)

Bartlesville has it's own version of Centennial Plaza. It also breaks up one of the few areas of continuous street walls, and is basically just a patch of grass with a "Little House on the Prairie" type store that sits vacant all but a few days a year. There was even talks of redeveloping it into a building space, however that was swiftly quashed by the "we can't get rid of parks" crowd in a heartbeat, even though it would have been so much better for the city on so many levels. Plus its smack dab in the middle of an area that already has a cluster of retail shops.

(http://examiner-enterprise.com/sites/examiner-enterprise.com/files/styles/large/public/field/media/web1_Centennial-Plaza-DSC_7816x-WEB.jpg?itok=vGjMZ-aC)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bartlesville,+OK/@36.7510424,-95.9759023,3a,60y,168.59h,88.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5Bhi4RkAU6mGxbQ_W7as5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b7124f36c7bdf1:0xdef002e0d528a136!8m2!3d36.7473114!4d-95.9808179!6m1!1e1
The sign about the park closing is not photoshopped by the way. Sad but true.

I'm not opposed to the park in any way. I think it's a good place for a park, particularly as we continue to fill in empty buildings. One could argue that the two residential renovations right there are influenced by the fact there is a park there- instead of surface parking. However, it is not very inviting for actual use and the fountain did end up being an ugly "design by committee" type off thing.

Some trees would certainly go a long, long way towards making that a more use-able space in Oklahoma.

If only there was some sort of organization or group that would plant trees...  :-X

My employer built that park. We are a non-profit that found 3 different donors of $400,000 each and we borrowed $1.2 million to match. We took out the parking lot, built the park, then sold it to the City of Tulsa for the bank note.

It is now owned and maintained by the city parks, but we retain approval rights to the use and changes.

The trees were not done right initially. It was a city contractor (but we accept blame too) and they installed them too early because the park was ready. Never plant trees in the summer. Now the Park department has reached out and is planning to do more trees. Big trees are difficult to find and really difficult to move and plant, but there is hope. They have also helped turn to Up With Trees (the real experts) who have already planted 550 trees in downtown Tulsa the last three years with more to come (Each of those trees are adoptable and you get a little plaque with your name for $750).

But the original discussions of the park were not around shade. The original donors talked about a pastoral setting for white collar workers. It was a vision of sun and grass and quiet. Downtown areas can be dark and shady and open was the hope.

But we all see urban green space differently. People with children always want to add a playground. People out of shape like me always want more places to sit. I am a tree guy (and the current president of the board of Up with Trees) but I have spoke to people in downtown think that the new trees block the beautiful architecture.  

We also built a small park along Archer near the coney place and would love to build another downtown park. We just need some rich people to step up.  

Green Space Matters.

Generally, I agree.  But it depends on the type of use, time of day (or night), weather conditions, time of the year, etc.

The current park, even with its shortcomings, is better than the surface parking lot it replaced.

I remember a proposal for an office tower on that site, announced around 1984.  It was to have been a sculptural skyscraper with faceted corners; twin pyramidal roofs; and setbacks from 6th, Main and Boston.  Fourth National Bank was to have been the anchor tenant.  The rendering showed trees planted in a landscaped plaza at the base of the tower (which would have been atop a 350-car, five-level underground parking structure).

In my opinion, the site would work better by being more enclosed (with beautiful buildings and trees surrounding it).  It's too open for my taste.  See "The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces (https://vimeo.com/111488563)" by William H. Whyte.
  

Pastoral my a$$.  I think you can go with the empirical evidence that nobody will use this space in the summer time as long as it's roasting in the sun.  That's the beauty of deciduous trees: you get shade in the summer (and cooler air temperatures), and living sculptures in the winter. I would NOT recommend trying to plant "large" trees.  Instead, I would plant appropriate trees that will grow large as they mature.  As I'm sure RM knows, if you try to transplant trees that are too big, they struggle to adapt/survive after the stress of being dug up and moved.

By the way, here's a nifty guide from the EPA about best practices and tree well designs for urban street trees that will allow them to thrive while capturing stormwater runoff: http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100H2RQ.PDF?Dockey=P100H2RQ.PDF (http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100H2RQ.PDF?Dockey=P100H2RQ.PDF)

I'm amused about the notion of trees blocking the architecture.  In Tulsa, everyone can see our architecture (what's left of it) because so much is surrounded by surface parking lots.  In this case, when the park is separated from buildings by streets, this argument does not apply.

(There is some validity to the argument when trees are located right next to buildings--for example: the art deco architecture of the Pavillion at the fairgrounds, which is obscured by bradford pear trees, of all hideous things.)

However, in hot climates, if you want people to utilize outdoor spaces, you need shade.  This means awnings or trees or arbors.  (Go to Guthrie Green at lunch time and feel the difference in temperature when you stand under the arbor, compared to out in the middle of the field.)  

Centennial Green has tremendous potential.  But right now, that's all it's got.  I'll be excited to see critical improvements that will help the park reach its potential in the future.

For ideas, be sure to check out the Project for Public Spaces website.  Here's a nifty graphic that explains the four necessities for successful places: http://www.pps.org/reference/grplacefeat/ (http://www.pps.org/reference/grplacefeat/)

And a quick reference for Placemaking 101: http://www.pps.org/reference/reference-categories/placemaking-tools/ (http://www.pps.org/reference/reference-categories/placemaking-tools/)

Thanks for the link!

In fairness, Jackson Square has a bit more going for it. Trees aren't a necessity, which it does have plenty of, just not directly in front of the cathedral. St. Peter and St. Ann are basically in the shade all day.

No, it's not very inviting.  The Walton Family Lawn oval is elevated three steps up from the sidewalk along Sixth Street.  That's a barrier and hinders use of The Walton Family Lawn.  The wheelchair route is out of the way, on the other side of the elevated Walton Family Lawn oval.  That's not inviting, either.

Near the 6th & Boston corner, there's a retaining wall surrounding The Walton Family Lawn, instead of steps up to it.  The retaining wall is too high to be comfortably "sittable" -- another barrier.

If the park gets a make-over, lowering The Walton Family Lawn to sidewalk level (or lowering it to slightly below the sidewalk grade at 6th & Boston) would be an improvement and would greatly increase accessibility.

I avoid the area during the day, if possible (too much sun for me!), but even at night, in the shade of planet Earth, the elevated Walton Family Lawn can be very uninviting.

(http://jefflphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/JDL_2950.jpg)
Photo by:  Jeff Lautenberger  jefflphoto.com

Links to some Tulsa World articles about the design, funding, and construction of the H.A. Chapman Centennial Green...

October 29, 2002:  "Speakers pitch ideas for revitalizing the city" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/speakers-pitch-ideas-for-revitalizing-the-city/article_996f4288-14c1-540a-a978-0f51e01516ba.html) by Randy Krehbiel (proposals included a "Centennial Walk" through downtown and establishing as many as 25 "pocket parks" -- small downtown green spaces)
  
November 17, 2004:  "19 centennial projects slated" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/centennial-projects-slated/article_27a2f10e-ed59-5ef1-925a-db2d55f81142.html) by Michael Overall (includes a 2003 rendering by Sarah Schmitz)
  
December 25, 2005:  "Walk to tie city's projects together" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/walk-to-tie-city-s-projects-together/article_b758b183-9422-50ae-b4ef-d14103011240.html) by Brian Barber

October 23, 2006:  "Downtown trees to be removed, replaced" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/downtown-trees-to-be-removed-replaced/article_1ff92c94-85c2-52ce-9e43-ef60f70e74c7.html?mode=story) by Brian Barber (new tree species to be planted along the Centennial Walk in structural soil, including a cluster of 35 Zelkova trees to be planted in the park by Up With Trees)

November 5, 2006:  "Downtown master plan proposed" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/downtown-master-plan-proposed/article_2cf3f0e4-988a-57f2-980c-9cefebb3c347.html?mode=story) by Kevin Canfield (map accompanying the article shows a proposed trolley shelter in the park near 6th & Main)

April 19, 2007:  "Postponed Vision projects scheduled to start this year" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/postponed-vision-projects-scheduled-to-start-this-year/article_068c0843-4e46-53fb-8ade-9689ee228aeb.html) by Kevin Canfield

May 30, 2007:  "Arena costs place hold on Oxley renovations" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/arena-costs-place-hold-on-oxley-renovations/article_cd533466-c2b9-538c-88a0-078c7d1d9680.html) by Sara Plummer (the Centennial Green project will be completed, but the rest of the two-mile Centennial Walk through downtown will be on hold)

July 9, 2007:  "Room for Enthusiasm" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/business_news/room-for-enthusiasm/article_f91fe497-2f57-5f47-b997-896ce1d1de21.html)
  
September 18, 2007:  "Construction Begins on Centennial Walk Phase II" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/business_news/construction-begins-on-centennial-walk-phase-ii/article_17bae5b3-8397-503a-94c6-f2ed8fd1ef79.html)

September 20, 2007:  "Construction starts on downtown park" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/construction-starts-on-downtown-park/article_4c712407-56b4-535e-bef5-6fc761f4669a.html) by Brian Barber

September 21, 2007 editorial:  "Urban green" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/urban-green/article_13a8abca-b728-5bb5-9a1b-5e4cc1338c39.html)

December 22, 2007:  "No down time downtown" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/no-down-time-downtown/article_90439964-a8e9-52f4-81f4-6bf287fdd571.html) by Brian Barber (about construction during the night after the big ice storm)

March 12, 2008:  "183 days and counting" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/where-you-turn-online/article_7d6b19fa-e845-5189-aa78-05acda274aaa.html) (Editorial Writer Wayne Greene's cranky blog posting about the on-going construction)

April 30, 2008:  "231 days and counting" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/where-you-turn-online/article_65b1e3b6-9891-5b93-974b-7225b48b73b1.html) (another cranky blog update from Wayne Greene)

May 4, 2008:  "Downtown park delayed" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/downtown-park-delayed/article_58adfce9-c03a-5732-869a-f72eab6253ba.html) by Brian Barber

June 9, 2008:  "H.A. Chapman Centennial Park -- still not done" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/online-today-at-tulsaworld-com/article_dd681617-78a4-551c-b81c-0f0a472bcfe2.html) by Wayne Greene

August 29, 2008:  "Downtown Emerging From Construction" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/business_news/downtown-emerging-from-construction/article_f4d0174e-c09a-56af-b647-1f0be1849389.html) (H.A. Chapman Centennial Green open)

November 8, 2008:  "Downtown parking lot now a paradise" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/downtown-parking-lot-now-a-paradise/article_5fcc5bef-5710-5b31-a8ef-515e8a7dfa68.html) by Brian Barber

November 10, 2008:  "H.A. Chapman Centennial Green Dedicated" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/business_news/h-a-chapman-centennial-green-dedicated/article_43509745-1802-5c98-ab19-835049e9828c.html)  

November 10, 2008 editorial:  "Downtown park" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/downtown-park/article_c1fc3583-ac87-5161-b750-fc67e1f5d2fd.html)

November 11, 2008:  "Park With No Place to Sit" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsabusiness/business_news/park-with-no-place-to-sit/article_4d21e028-4dbd-530c-9cb9-5f9fec594eb0.html) (complaint from Kent Morlan)

--------

November 13, 2007:  "Only in Oklahoma:  Oilman gave money away -- secretly" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/only-in-oklahoma-oilman-gave-money-away---secretly/article_b04ca572-4950-5df3-9cfa-8c432610a679.html) by Gene Curtis (related article about the James A. Chapman family and their philanthropy)

2016 -  Still not done.

Nice reference.  Glad you put that here!


There appear to be a few small trees on the south side - surrounded by concrete.  Anyone know if the sidewalk there is permeable to allow water to flow into the root zone?  Otherwise, those will be just the standard tortured trees that have no room for roots to grow, nor means for water to get to those roots in any reasonable way.

The open grassy area would be great for some trees, but given the apparent obsession with surrounding trees with concrete (not just here, but most towns), it might be counterproductive - would lose all that grassy area!   Yeah, that's sarcasm in case anyone didn't notice.

There are some great trees that would really enhance that area, are slow growing enough to develop nicely over a long time.

Autumn Purple Ash would be a great tree to have there - 3 or 4.  
A Burr Oak or two along one side (away from the street) would be pretty, provide a visual 'anchor' to the park, but may put off some people due to the LARGE acorns!  Size of golf balls!!  

And one of my "pet projects"....

Something I am getting ready to do is a bit of an experiment and it might be something interesting for the city to do also.  Get involved in the effort to re-introduce the American Chestnut back into American life!  At this point in time, it would likely need to be a two step process - here is what I am going to do, and it follows some of the recommendations of the American Chestnut Foundation.  First, there is adequate seed available of intermediate attempts of breeding a blight resistant tree.  They sadly, are not resistant.  They will grow, reproduce, and make beautiful trees for some period of time.  Then they will 'die' due to blight.  The roots survive and will send out new growth, but each incarnation has probably less than 10 years life expectancy.  What this step does is provide "proof of concept" as to whether the Chestnut will survive in Oklahoma.  

In the meantime, and in parallel, there are quantities of Restoration Chestnut 1.0 available.  For an entry level membership (costing $300), you get to be annual member and receive seed.  4 seeds.  This is what I am doing.  And it may not happen in 2017, but later.  Depends on how many members and how much seed they get.

This would be a very long term adventure that could give good educational opportunities in several areas - history, biology, ecology, etc.  For decades at least.  So, Tulsa, here is a quiet little backwater, niche project that could be interesting and fulfilling by helping the effort to bring back a true American Icon!

http://www.acf.org/

What part did I misunderstand again?

It's funny, we get rid of a heat island which all people seem to agree is a good thing, now everyone is unhappy either with the type of green space it is now or what it is proposed to be.  Sheesh.

There's a heat island effect on the site.  "We" have not gotten rid of a heat island at that location.

Probably most people on this forum would agree that the Chapman Centennial Green is better than the surface parking lot it replaced, but except for the elevated Walton Family Lawn oval, much of the site is paved, with very few trees or anything else to provide shade or to reduce the heat island effect.

Everyone is not unhappy with the Chapman Centennial Green ... however, its design is lacking.  As cannon_fodder posted, the park is not very inviting for actual use.  

-It lacks shade.  
-It lacks a sense of enclosure by canopy trees and/or beautiful buildings.  
-The oval is elevated above the street level, and it's surrounded by a retaining wall/planter barrier along much of its perimeter.  
-Many of the walls are uncomfortable for sitting because they're too high.
-The fountain hasn't been operating recently (at least when I've walked by, which isn't very often).
-When the fountain is operating, there's over-spray onto the surrounding pavement.
-The single oak tree* PSO donated for The Walton Family Lawn is dead and gone.

from "Downtown parking lot now a paradise" by Brian Barber, published by the Tulsa World, November 8, 2008:

For $5.378 million, I think "we" Vision 2025 sales tax payers could have gotten a better park.  The World article mentions other donations, and I don't know how all of the funding was divided (or the final, total cost, either).  If someone has those facts and numbers, I'd be interested in seeing them.  But, Chapman Centennial Green is a public park, and...




How many additional trees is the Parks Department planning?  What size?  What species?  Where will they be planted?  When will they be planted?  How will they be planted?  In special soil?  Does the Parks Department have the plans for improvements online?  If not, are plans available for public inspection/review anywhere?

The park needs more tables and chairs, preferably movable.  There are activities scheduled for Chapman Centennial Green, but it's not managed and utilized as well as Guthrie Green, for example.

The Walton Family Lawn is too isolated and inaccessible from the street.  Lowering the entire oval might be too expensive, but breaking through the retaining wall/planter and adding more stairs (and possibly ramps) would make the lawn much more inviting.


* according to the Tulsa World, the mature oak tree was planted in November.
 

I suggest you contact the Parks department.

It sounds like you are the self appointed expert on what should be done.

Good luck.

Thanks for your reply, RecycleMichael.

Since it followed mine directly, I'm assuming it was a comment to me (although my post wasn't quoted in yours).

If so, let me clarify that I'm not an expert, self-appointed or otherwise, on what should be done, nor on what has been done to this point, exactly.  I wasn't involved with the programming or the design of the park.  Almost everything that I've learned about the history of it was through Tulsa World articles written by the late Brian Barber, some of the replies you have posted this month on this thread, and some other info I've found online (which isn't very much).

The topic started with someone else's observations and complaints, not mine:

I don't agree with everything johrasephoenix stated.

1.  Contrary to what johrasephoenix posted, I don't think the H.A. Chapman Centennial Green is terrible, but it needs some improvement.

2.  Contrary to what johrasephoenix posted, there are trees: twelve deciduous conifers along the old Chamber building, about twenty deciduous broadleaf trees in the southwest corner, and five deciduous oaks in the abutting public sidewalk along Boston.  However -- in my opinion -- the park needs more deciduous broadleaf trees, planted properly and then well-maintained.

3.  Contrary to what johrasephoenix posted, there is some real public art on the fountain, but the fountain itself doesn't seem to be working.  I (and rdj and perhaps others) are wondering why the fountain is not operating.  Do you know why?  July 27, 2016 edit:  The fountain was working last night and this morning.

4.  Contrary to what johrasephoenix posted, I don't think throwing in a swingset for kiddos would improve the park.  I don't think a swingset was ever programmed or intended for Chapman Centennial Green, nor do I think one should have been included, necessarily.  (Perhaps when and if more families move nearby, but not now...)

5.  Contrary to what johrasephoenix posted, there are things and activities to attract people to the park.  For example, I was invited to a Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee event there recently.  I see people at the park from time to time, although I'm not there often myself.  The place might be teeming with people most of the time, as far as I know, but there don't seem to be many people using it whenever I walk by.


I've made a few suggestions about what I think would improve the park (shade trees, more places to sit, and a few other things), as have johrasephoenix (shade trees, more places to sit, and a few other things) and PonderInc (shade trees) and erfalf (shade trees) and cannon_fodder (shade trees) and OurTulsa (shade trees and movable chairs/tables) and carltonplace (many more trees) and TheArtist (amphitheater/stage/sidewalk cafe structure and a simplified/pared down fountain sculpture) and hello (more places to sit) and pfox (more places to sit and secure bike parking/showers/lockers) and joiei (more trees) and SXSW (a corner cafe/restaurant) and Kent Morlan (places to sit) and sgrizzle (a buried time capsule) and Rico (a street vendor or two) and patric (more efficient and vision-friendly lighting) and you (a few more trees and more places to sit).

And I agree with you that moving and planting large trees right now, in the heat of summer, would not be advisable.

Seems that's been the SOP for people in Tulsa since the 70's. People see something in another town and they go "OOOOOHHHH That's what Tulsa needs." Then Tulsa get's it and they go"Well we wanted it, but that's not the way we want it, change it and do it again but different."

True, that may be the SOP for some or many or most people in Tulsa -- but -- not for me.  I've been here since the 1980s, and I've never thought Tulsa "needed" more open space downtown.  In my opinion, there's too much open space downtown, especially south of 6th Street.  What downtown Tulsa needs is more buildings, more housing in particular. 

There are several parks and fountains downtown.  But, in general, they are not operated or utilized very well.  The H.A. Chapman Centennial Green is not very inviting for people to use it.

By the way, re: tree selection...

I would hope that we would plant female trees, to help allergy sufferers, since only male tree generate pollen.  Female trees drop seeds/acorns, which may be undesirable in an urban park setting, but are critical food for wildlife in natural settings.  In an urban setting, it may be best to select sterile female trees, which would neither create pollen or drop seeds and nuts.  Not sure if anyone's thinking about this as it relates to tree selection, but I thought I'd mention it.

OMG! I thought trees were bi-sexual! Really, didn't know they had a preference. Now going out to check my redbuds, hackberries and maples for seeds.

I'm not a tree expert, self-appointed or otherwise, but I would avoid planting female ginkgo trees.

Oklahoma Redbud would be another good tree to have.

Burr Oak would still be a great 'anchor' tree, even with the acorns.

Sugar Maple would look good, but probably wouldn't make sweet sap here with our milder winters... Very pretty in fall, as well as through summer.

Hackberry would be good as a border tree - may have to prune more than the others.


How about clearing off a few blocks of parking lots and make one big Central Park thing?  We got one of the twin towers in miniature - a miniature Central Park would complement that and get all our park 'stuff' into one location - right in the middle somewhere near the Chapman....

When I walked by tonight (around 8pm), the fountain was gushing.
 

Those are the worst! You can't even buy a female ginkgo - nurseries do not sell them.

Sounds like a market opportunity! 

Bradford Pears are another one to be avoided at all cost!!   And Silver Maple.

Why are Silver Maple so hated?  There’s one in the backyard of one of my rent houses and it’s been a great shade tree once I got an arborist to clean up all the damage the previous owner had not addressed after the ’07 ice storm.

Surface roots and brittle limbs.

Like Bamboo said...brittle limbs - they all break out the center leader sometime after 20 years old.  They are beautiful trees!!  I love the shade, as well as the look of them.  Had a huge one in my front yard until about 7 years ago!  It was really nice for many years, and a complete mess for the rest of its life.  Even with regular pruning!

And the roots!!   They intrude everywhere.  I am still dealing with some driveway and foundation issues from that tree as well as a neighbor's whose tree is still there.  I am cutting pieces off of it every chance I get to get it out of there.    And yeah, she is ok with that....



An even bigger issue is the fantasy that realtors have been promoting for years about trees in the home landscape.  MOST of the landscapes built in the last 100 years are way too small for the trees that were used.  Burr Oak.  Silver Maple.  Elm.  Ash.  Sweet Gum.    All of these get pretty big in just 15 to 20 years.  And when they are put onto a postage stamp lot, it is a recipe for disaster.  A 45 ft wide by 35 ft deep front yard is NO place for a large tree.  Ever!

I have been a lifetime subscriber to the landscape tree nonsense.  There are 7 very large, 35 - 40  year old trees within a 60 ft distance from some point on my house.  Burr oak - like what they have at Mohawk Park with the big acorns.  3 large maples.  1 large pin oak.  1 sweet gum.  1 bald cypress.   There was a 4 ft diameter mulberry that was cut down two years ago....way past due!!  Absolute mess.  Advocated by realtors everywhere as "adding value" to a house.   The main result is foundation issues and complete inability to grow grass.

River Birch appears to have been very popular in the late 1950’s or early 1960’s.  It seemed to be quite common in Lortondale.  The ’07 ice storm decimated many of them and mature ones don’t weather our summers well at all.

Birch is a beautiful tree that is massively outside it's element here.  They usually don't survive more than a few years, but when the earth, moon, and stars all align properly it is magical!!  Had a girlfriend who lived in Lortondale and her next door neighbor had one that survived a long time.  Was a wonderful tree!  Last I saw it was the late 70's and it was still there.  Probably gone now.  In best of conditions, I think they are only a 25 year tree.


Advised a neighbor on tree about 5 years ago - to get a Purple Autumn Ash.  They become large, but take a long time to do so.  The tree she planted is doing very nicely and with a little pruning I did, has an amazing shape and look!  Very nice fall color!!   I told her to get security camera, 'cause I was gonna come dig it up and plant it in my yard!

Ash - I also have a 1976 ash in my back yard - one of the huge trees.  Almost 4 ft diameter!  The storms in recent years have started breaking pieces out.  I am slowly cutting it out.  Gonna take the larger limbs/trunk and mill them.  Will make some amazing lumber for cabinets, furniture, etc.  This one tree is large enough I could probably floor one at least one bedroom with hardwood floors, plus cabinets in the laundry room.

Now I just gotta figure out what to do with the 50 ft tall burr oak that's out there....anyone need a golf ball size acorn?

I am going to experiment with American Chestnut this fall - get some seed and try to grow them.  The "good" thing about that is they won't survive long enough to get too big for a yard!  In 5 to 10 years, they are gonna die.  In the meantime, you get chestnuts!!   Got an open fire to roast your nuts by??   When you cut the trunk down, the roots will survive and start another tree, so you get another 10 year tree.  The blight kills everything above ground but leaves the roots intact....

Birch are truly resilient when it comes to bending and not breaking. For the first ~20 years you can basically bend the top down to touch the ground and it will spring right back. After that 20 year park, it will bend... but the spring right back part gets a little iffy. And yes, they suck horribly in the summer once they get to be any size.   They are called RIVER BIRCH because they like to be next to massive amounts of water. If you cut a limb, it will flow water for weeks. Yet this is a good tree for Oklahoma?

Silver Maples are popular because they grow quickly and can be pretty in the fall. But so many of them look like hell because they shed limbs so easily. If you are willing to trim them whenever they lose a limb, they can remain for a long time. But, in my experience with Oklahoma whether, sooner rather than later they usually suffer catastrophic damage and need to be put down due to ugliness.

No, River Birch is not a good tree for Oklahoma.  It's just a really pretty tree....I think.  Makes me wonder what the first person that planted one here was thinking....I'm betting beer was involved!   Kinda like the first guy to eat an egg - had to be a guy to take that dare!!   I think I have seen those two guys - sitting around drinking beer on the front porch watching the chickens in the yard...one said to the other, I dare you to eat the next thing that comes out of that chickens butt !!   He got lucky.

Someone dared someone to plant River Birch....


Silver Maples take a lot of work.  The one I had was pruned a LOT.  Looked good for a long time.   I gave up for the last 4 or 5 years - by the time I cut it down, it was a mess!!
 

As long as we're on the topic of trees...

Apparently, it's also important that you always plant native trees because they attract insects that are critical to native birds. (Same with berries/nuts/seeds which are needed by native wildlife, which I think I touched on above.)  Apparently, if you plant non-native species, you don't get the right kind of bugs / berries / nuts / seeds for the ecosystem, and your native species suffer.  Who knew!

So true!

Farmers/gardeners know and knew.    I recently got access to a nice area of pasture where I have been able to set up a strip along the front, about 50 feet wide, that contains a huge variety of pollinator bait.  Actually, I didn't have to do much - just let it grow.  The butterfly show is always impressive.  Also have a pretty big population of what is a "near threatened" species of frog - Crawfish frog.  Yep, they eat crawfish!  Before I found them, I had delusions of occasional crawfish boils!!

Also used some methods I knew were good, but never had opportunity to try on a bigger scale.  One in pasture management - neighbors in the area average about 1.5 to 2 of those large round bales per acre on their places.  I get just over 6 - literally next door.  Guess I will "keep on truckin'..."


I have a large honey locust tree that I am trying to decide what to do about -  beautiful trees!!  Gazillions of those long seed pods that draw deer like candy!  And little honey locust trees over a 5 acre area!  And spikes!  Up to 6" long to hang the grandkids on to keep them out of my hair!!     Just kidding!!!   Am going to cut it down just to keep them out of it.   Plus get some magnificent lumber!!  That will become the American Chestnut experimental space at that time.

And while we are off the topic of Chapman Green....  I may have missed it here - probably - but is there a tree plan for the place?  Or just discussions now?

There is a plan to install video screens around perimeter.

Fundraising is occurring as we speak.

No tree plan that I know of.

Sadness -no trees!    If I have success with the American Chestnut, maybe they would be interested in a donated tree....?   The resistant one, not the blight tree....

Perhaps someone could sneak out there in the dark of night and plant a tree in the middle of the park where the oak once was.  8)

Forget that idea.

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Source: jefflphoto.com

The secret to anonymous acts of public works is to wear a reflective vest and a hard hat, and do the work in broad daylight.  If you own a white pickup, all the better.  A few orange cones never hurt anyone either.

There's plenty of broad daylight at the Chapman Centennial Green and the Walton Family Lawn.  Lots of bright sunshine ... very little shade ...
 

I could do that...wonder if it would get watered?   Needs to be after the first frost....

Pokemon Go player?

Pee Party follower.  Same difference.

If people routinely steal the copper wiring and aluminum poles of the streetlights that "fight crime" we can probably have guerilla gardening.

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If a small oak tree were to appear in front of DECOPOLIS (Michael cough) it might then appear planted in the park.

Let me see if I can get an American Chestnut going...

I'm up for some gardening.

Me too!

Gotta find an oak tree if I can't get a Chestnut.  I had a really nice Burr Oak started last year that was up to about 6' tall, about 3/4" diameter trunk!  Would have been the perfect tree for this little adventure, and in just a very short time would have towered over all the buildings for half mile around!!   Well, maybe not quite that big, but they do grow large - my backyard tree is about 20 years old or so, and is 45 ft tall.  2 1/2 ft diameter trunk!   Gonna make some fantastic wood flooring.


Sadly, it did not survive the wet spring followed by a several week hot dry spell - stressed out and died!!   We talked some in the last stages and I think the real story was that it saw what was happening in this country with the growth of "Trumpian politics" and just couldn't stand the idea of either of them being President!   Like that ladies obituary from earlier this year....