The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Just got a heads up from an informed TN forum member that the City is acquiring ROW to widen Denver between 13th and 17th.  What the heck?

Here's some of the info from Improve Our Tulsa website:

Description: Rehabilitation
Denver Ave. from 13th St. to Riverside Dr., 16th Pl. from Denver Ave. to Carson Ave., 17th St. and 18th St. from Boulder Ave. to Cincinnati Ave. and Baltimore Ave. from 15th St. to 18th St.
Budget: $4,855,000.00

That's a crap load of money for a few blocks of rehab.  (Typical street rehabs are about $2.7 million / mile for major arterials.)

Does anyone know what's going on?  This is supposedly still in "design" phase, although it was originally scheduled for construction in 2016.

Click on the highlighted areas of the IOT map to see details:
http://www.improveourtulsa.com/Map/Default.aspx (http://www.improveourtulsa.com/Map/Default.aspx)

No idea but my hunch is probably bc of the increased traffic from riverside (gatheringplace) and the apartments going up right at the end of denver and riverside?  ???

Hopefully for a protected bike lane.

4.5 million for 7 blocks is a ton of money. The traffic count doesn't demand 6 lanes (It's at 19k, parts of Harvard handle 40k with 4 lanes) so I can't imagine that's what it is.

Is this part of the "connection" between downtown and the river? Streets-cape, better sidewalks, bike lanes, bus route?

I hope so.

That makes me wonder if they are buying right of way to knock down some of those neat old craftsman homes.  I hope not.

ROW include sidewalks.  Currently the sidewalk is right on the curb.  It's awkward and feels dangerous.  If they are widening the ROW, hopefully they can move the sidewalks away from the street with a grass and tree barrier, and maybe add a protected bike lane?  That area is sorely underutilized in my opinion.  The new apartments at the corner could be a big driver in making it nicer.

All progress is change.  Not all change is progress.

Check out the sidewalks on Memorial from 101st to 111th.

The City has not taken the opportunity to move sidewalks away from curbs, even where a wider ROW would allow it.  For example, the sidewalk along QT's block between 14th Place and 15th could be ten feet farther from the curb, and the sidewalk along the credit union to the north could be five feet farther from the curb.  But they aren't.


The Memorial ROW is about 100 feet wider than Denver's ROW (about 160 to  170 feet wide on Memorial versus about 60 to 70 feet wide on Denver).  In that extra 100 feet, there are six traffic lanes (two more traffic lanes than Denver, and the lanes on Memorial are a bit wider than the lanes on Denver), plus a center turning lane (about 12 feet wide) and a paved median (about four feet wide).  The overall curb-to-curb paved roadway width on Memorial is about 50 feet wider than Denver's.  

That leaves about 50 extra feet of space for sidewalks in Memorial's ROW, as compared to Denver's.  In many places along Memorial, the grass strips between the curbs and sidewalks are about four feet wide, but there's enough space to have sidewalks much farther from the curbs (about 15 to 35 feet of grass with street trees instead of only four feet of grass).

The curb ramps along Memorial are not well-designed.  At 103rd and Memorial, there are eight curb ramps, directing pedestrians into four crosswalks.  That's how curb ramps and crosswalks ought to be positioned.  However, at nearly every other crosswalk, the curb ramps are angled toward the middle of the intersection, at the widest point for pedestrians to cross.  Overall the sidewalks and crosswalks along Memorial are poorly conceived ... definitely not to be imitated along Denver.

Average traffic counts on that mile of Memorial are about 37,000 to 48,000 vehicles per day.  Speed limits are (or were in March) 45 and 50 mph.

Average traffic counts on Denver are about 20,000 vehicles per day.  Speed limits are 30 and 35 mph.
 

I've got a request in for the details on this.

I've not heard anything about it and am also curious. I'll let you all know what I find out when the info comes in.

Awesome, thank you sir!

I was chatting with a city engineer recently, and he said "maybe they want to fix that 'kink' in the road."  He didn't know anything about the project, but his instinctive reaction was that a bend in the road was bad.

Here's the "kink"...
(http://www.accidentalurbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Denver.jpg)

This is silly and indicative of decades of traffic engineering philosophy that insists that every local street should be built like a highway.  The highest priority should always be the fast, smooth and unimpeded travel of cars.  Unfortunately, this is exactly opposite of what it takes to build a vibrant city.

The goal of a city street should not be to allow cars to go fast.  The goal should be giving people access to places.  Places designed for people are not found alongside highways.  Places for people offer multiple, diverse destinations along a public way that is comfortable, interesting and safe.  Thus, they are not defined by wide straight lanes, clear horizons, deep setbacks and surface parking lots.  Places should be built to ensure that people on foot or bike feel welcomed.  They certainly should be accessible by car, but that is not the primary function, or the highest priority of a city street.

We need to keep the highway engineers out of our city, because even if we fix our zoning to make desirable places for people, it won't work without corresponding changes to street design.

OMG are you serious?! Someone actually sees that "kink" in the road as something that needs fixing?!  Gawd Almighty. Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm.

I have no idea exactly what's going on, but it should be noted that these "few blocks of rehab" actually add up to 1.5 miles. 

I utterly failed the critical reading test here on the original post and immediately focused on Denver, the rest of the project seeming like a block here or there. But you are spot on. 2,387 meters, or 1.5 miles.

So we are ~20% over the standard budget given above of $2.7mil/mile.

Kinks and curves in roads are FUN!  Straight roads are boring and cause sleepiness.

Is it the bend or the swell there?  I've always thought the bend combined with the elevation change down and then back up there caused a bit of an issue that made sure you were paying attention.

From the Improve Our Tulsa website (http://www.improveourtulsa.com/Map/Default.aspx):

Non-Arterial "DENVER AV" Street Project #144467
Proj #: 144467
Description: Rehabilitation
Location: Maintenance Zone 4067: Denver Ave. from 13th St. to Riverside Dr., 16th Pl. from Denver Ave. to Carson Ave., 17th St. and 18th St. from Boulder Ave. to Cincinnati Ave. and Baltimore Ave. from 15th St. to 18th St.
Budget: $4,855,000.00
Current Status: Design
Design Date:   2014
Construction:   2016
Engineer:   Guy

Maybe to give some contractor a job, I see no reason for it. I see a lot of un-needed road work going on as far as that goes.

Really? Drive up Denver from Riverside past 15th to the expressway. Its a road in dire need of repair or replacement. So is 18th around Boston. Main is nice though. Then for some fun, try thinking past your own interests (running) and consider that the Gathering Place will likely put additional stress on this area as people drive, bike, and shuttle between Riverparks, downtown entertainment, hospitals, arena, churches, etc. Then consider that if you repair/replace it would be a good time to widen, add sidewalks etc. Doesn't seem like make work for contractors. Seems like good planning.

Don't forget; he hasn't provided any proof he really even lives here.

I know I do.  There are several segments of road in this town that need attention.  21st Street between Memorial and Sheridan come to mind.  It's like driving on the dark side of the moon out there.

It can't be enough extra money in the budget to buy those houses on Denver.

There is a five-property gap between the multi-family on the North and the professional building on the South of the "kink".  They could eliminate most of the kink just by straightening the street in that area, and not have to mess with any of the buildings.  But I agree with an earlier poster, I don't see an issue with it as it is.

If our traffic engineers are worried about that "kink" in the road, would be interesting to see how they would react if you set them down in a traditional city like London.  They would have to destroy most of the city in order for the traffic to flow "efficiently". How ever do those poor people in those other cities like that make it?

There are worse kinks in town

17th & Utica
8th & Utica (or Lewis... somewhere in that vicinity)

Hwy 75 still has (I think it used to be worse)  an abrupt kink/sheer in the lane stripes around the new 71st street overpass..  
The pavement continues to go straight, but the stripes shift over (far worse offender in my opinion)
new wider pavement?  Lets shift the lanes out for reasons.  You definitely need to be alert to make sure the car next to you is aware of the shift.  I witnessed several close calls when that was my commute

Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0693901,-96.0066469,153m/data=!3m1!1e3)  (north of the bridge)
(It doesn't appear that abrupt from the air... but it's pretty abrupt at hwy speed)

Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0526462,-96.0067104,95m/data=!3m1!1e3)  (south of the bridge - not as bad)