The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Move the other companies to other office spaces in downtown and connect the grid again. If there isn't enough office space, build on the flat surface lots in the IDL. Opening up Boston Avenue would be great for the city.

There are plenty of great cities and downtowns that don't have "grids". There are plenty of ways to connect different parts of downtown as well.  That building really helps Tulsa and its downtown feel larger than it is, especially when your there on Boston Avenue which inevitably so many people do find themselves.  You actually feel like your in a much bigger city (just without any pedestrians lol).

I would leave if that building left.  That street would feel like you were in just another "slightly bigger" small midwestern town with nobody walking around.  "At least this way its like, wow, feels like NYC here, but without people. But wow I can see potential here."  I think that building has done more good than harm despite what others say.  And I would say I am a much better judge of Art/design/psychology than most everyone else on this board.  Buildings are just objects in a 3-D painting that you can reposition like objects in a regular painting, furniture in a room, etc. to create a different look and feel.  I will brag here and say I am fairly good at that. I will put my "illusions" up against your perceived realities any day.  For in the end many an illusion becomes, reality.

This thought is ludicrous.

The value of that tower is somewhere around $100,000,000.00. Tearing it down would cost tens of millions of dollars. It would cost tens of millions more to landscape and finish the road.  So lets say we spend $140,000,000, remove an icon from our skyline, remove a huge tax base, and remove grade A office space (perfectly suited for a corporate HQ).  Ignoring the fact that much (most?) of the building is occupied by the Bank of Oklahoma, WPX, and other companies and, as you said, we may need to build a new building to house them...

What we gain is two blocks of Boston Avenue.

Who in their right mind would consider that proposition?

Two blocks that are then cut off again because there is no bridge over the railroad tracks.

I'm all for tearing it down, leveling the space, and installing that gigantic The American statue.

Put the giant indian on top of the tower.

How about we build a tunnel for cars through the building? I have seen that done with really big trees.

Gut it and have the world’s largest laser tag center.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54356017.jpg)

(http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/Helmsley1.jpg)

Not saying it's never been tried.

I-95 eastbound over the George Washington bridge in New York does that going over Manhattan on its way to the Bronx.  Drove a big truck through there one time and as you enter the tunnel, you can see the gouges and scrape marks where trucks have bounced and hit the ceiling of the tunnel.  I'm betting overheight illegal drivers....

It could absolutely work:

(http://theronneel.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Get-em-Kong3.jpg)

It disconnects the Brady from downtown. After we do this, we could knock down the east side of the IDL as well. More connectivity. Also, I'm ok with Tulsa being a big Midwestern town. That's what it is.

Build a bridge, open a train station...simple things, you know.

Seriously, the cost would certainly be in excess of $140,000,000.00. The ASSESSED value of the BOK tower is $75mil.  It is more than 1.1 million square feet of office space that rents out above $16 a square and is currently 100% occupied. There is a shortage of grade A office space in Tulsa at the moment with only the City unable to rent it out (City Hall). It would be the tallest building every intentionally demolished... with a glass sky scrapper right next door just for fun. It cost $75,000,000 to demolish a 39 floor building in NYC, a 27 story building in Vegas (no asbestos) cost more than $10mil to bring down.  That's bad news... because the BOK Tower is taller than either of them, has a glass neighbor, and was started before the asbestos bans began to take effect.

Lets pretend it would "only" cost $100 million to buy it, tear it down, and build a new road and that are fine with losing the skyline, office space and tax base.  Lets pretend that there isn't a building there are all... that it would simply cost $100,000,000 to extend Boston those two blocks.

Defend how that is worth $100,000,000.  

That's a new baseball field.
The Bob Dylan Archives.
And $40 million more to play with.

Connectivity. We are spending more than that on low water dams.

$100,000,000 would buy a nice starter light rail system.

That’s the same logic my ex wife would use on me if I bought something frivolous, she would go buy something frivolous just because I had.  I called it retaliatory spending.

I really don’t get the whole point why someone would gut virtually the biggest contributor to ad valorem tax in downtown so more developers can stick their hands out for all sorts of freebies to build on the space.

Never mind that, as others have alluded to, it is one of the more iconic landmarks on the Tulsa skyline and has been for 40 years.

It's misplaced. Surprised no one sees that.

Really?  How about compare that to the Devon Tower and see what is misplaced.

I think the Williams Tower is placed just fine.

Devon Tower is equally awful, but at least the Brady District isn't on the other side.

Also misplaced:  Empire State Bldg
I worked downtown (5th & Main) for 15 years.   Regularly walked over to the Brady area without issue.
It's a building, not the Berlin wall.

You're either trolling, or you have been drinking Uncle Kimchi's bong water. Yeah, go ahead, tear it down and send another 2000 or so jobs out of downtown.

Not trolling at all. I made my argument as being connectivity. I think it's a huge, generic looking office complex that takes the flow out of downtown. People always go to 5th/6th and Boston to look north but rarely go to 3rd/4th and Boston looking south. Try both and tell me which one feels better.

Edit: Also made it clear on what to do with the jobs. Move to other buildings or build on flat surface lots.

Yes, it is out of place. It broke up the grid and made a hated super block. So did the BOk Center, Drillers Stadium, Convention Center, and the University of Tulsa. Not to mention the interruption caused by Expo Square, the shopping malls, movie theaters, and etc. Tear them all down! DOWN I SAY!

Again, lets do the math:

Buy the building: $100,000,000
Tear it down: $25-75,000,000 (Call it $50mil)
Build the roads and landscape: $25,000,000  (obviously more if we are replacing the Boston bridge)
and now we are going to replace 1,000,000 square feet of office space: ~$240,000,000 (One Place Tower cost $120mil to build and is ~275,000 square feet of office space, but included retail and parking. To try to keep the number as low as possible lets pretend we double the cost and get almost 4 times the space)

Okay, so the total cost of extended Boston Avenue two blocks is now $415,000,000.. People that now want to go from the Marriott to the Brady District now save themselves a two block detour. Each Jimmy John's rider saves a minute and half on his bike. And on our maps, the grid is one step closer to being restored.

$415,000,000.00 for two blocks of road.

OR... we could install a light rail system that goes around that gap at a cost of $20,000,000 a mile. That gets us about the same light rail system as Boston, Phoenix, Houston, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Seattle...  

If we wanted to start a subway system we could build a line from Boston Avenue Methodist Church to Guthrie Green for $160,000,000 ($100mil/km). Another 3K to the University of Tulsa down 6th or 11th and we would certainly burn the budget. But hey... we'd have a subway.

Now, a subway is a dumb idea. Not because it wouldn't be neat, interesting, or somewhat useful. But it is a terrible use of resources.

This thing kills connectivity also.

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2Ov53uSXpslVsuTSMEPZHcN6Ofh-2N2JsfzwFISP5hDyE5Smt)

Connectivity is not everything.

Ugh...all those trees sucking up the oxygen.

The Williams tower blocks the Mayor's view of the river too...

If your complaint is because you are missing out or losing business in the Brady District, blame that on JJ's restrictive delivery policy, not the way the city is laid out. Want business in the Brady? Build a store over there.

You do realize that the park area, hotel, and PAC were all a part of the tower project, right?
I think it's in a great place and adds to the skyline.
Remember, there wasn't really anything north of 3rd street when it was built so I think they did a fine job.

You're comparing a great park to a massive office tower with no life. There is nothing along the street of the building that gives enhancement to anything around it. Go to CityPlex and see how morbid it looks. That is the Williams tower but it benefits from the buildings within a few blocks for life unlike CityPlex.

PAC and the hotel are within the grid.

It is a joke with the bike drivers, but that's not where my opinion came from. It comes from how I think the street life of the roads south of 3rd would flourish if it was all connected. I don't think people understand that concept. TheArtist just posted that he would move yet he has questioned many of times how to increase business to compete with the Brady. This is how you do that for street level retailers.

I still think there would be too much of a "Pedestrian Lively" gap down Boston Ave.  320 S. Boston acts as a gap, so does the PAC and hotel and the parking garage across from the Union Depot, then there is the bridge.  I think it would be better to fill in the lot on the corner across from the 320, then get a good Pedestrian Lively development in the PAC lot.  And or continue down 5th and connect down to the Blue Dome from there with some good Pedestrian Lively development.  Or anchor in a good chunk of Pedestrian Lively development in the Deco District so that it too is a destination and get us some good downtown transit. 

The most important thing is that we have 3-4 contiguous blocks of uninterrupted retail/restaurant somewhere. Then you have enough to create a destination spot.   Transit could then connect that area with other areas like the Blue Dome or Brady Arts, and or having some pedestrian friendly connections would be just as good. 

The Williams tower defines the Tulsa skyline.  It's fully occupied, class A office space.  This one building generates over $1 million in property taxes every year, which helps fund Tulsa Public Schools.  It serves as the headquarters for several major Tulsa corporations.  (Williams, WPX, BOK, Magellen, law firms, etc.)  And it's significant both architecturally and culturally because it's the surviving sibling to the Twin Towers in NYC.

The Williams tower itself doesn't cut off Brady from the rest of downtown.  The elevated bridges and the RR tracks do that.  In the old days, buildings lined the bridges, which helped connect the sides.  In the modern world, a better solution might be to replace the bridges with underpasses. This would create new spaces where buildings could abut the RR right-of-way with short pedestrian tunnels or skybridges for crossing the tracks.

Regardless... End of topic.

Next.

Now that's true. But the solution is to put some stuff on on street level, not tear the complex down.

I somehow missed this thread until today.  I had to go back to the dates and see if it was an April Fool's joke.  Wow.

I don't know if you realize this or not but... that monstrosity blocking people from walking...  has these weird things called doors...

I think you can walk in the building using them on one side and walkout using those on the other side. Now, I don't know how you get back through because the doors may only let people in or out depending on which side of the building they are on but you can get through building going at least one way using them so you don't have to walk a block out of your way.
They are locked after 6 or 7PM too but they are open at 6AM.

I've walked through there many times, but you can't ride a bike through the building. I think that's the real issue. It's certainly not driving because the bridge on the other side doesn't allow you to drive across.

Nope. You can go in and out from all entrances and exits except to City Hall (which seems ironic).  You can enter or exit from the 1st street entrance immediately onto Boston. From the one on Main. Or from the sky bridge from the new parking garage On 1st. Or from the sky walk from the park off of 2nd. Or from the hotel off of 2nd. Or from the ground floor entrance off of second.

I've taken many a meandering path through that building to and from the Brady District over lunch. My favorite for people not familiar with downtown enters on the ground floor from 1st and Boston, goes up a level, over, then out across the sky bridge to the hotel. Then down to the parking garage, to the tunnel to 320 S. Boston, across to the Kennedy, across to Mid Con, then up and over to the Marriott, into the Philtower, and pop out on Boston (you used to be able to go to the basement and over to Philcade, then back up and down the hall to the IBM building). They are so disoriented. The best part was you actually go past my old building doing that... but it made me chuckle.  ;D

Because JJ's delivery riders can't deliver there because of their own policy.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.1517551,-95.9888166/36.1598312,-95.9944839/@36.1550032,-95.9954036,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e1?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.1517551,-95.9888166/36.1598312,-95.9944839/@36.1550032,-95.9954036,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e1?hl=en)

I was just kidding on the doors opening both ways ;o)

First, my sarcasm-o-meter is sometimes broken. I admit that.

Second, sadly, there are some corporate buildings that do function that way. Try cutting through OneOK sometime. I worked in that building back in the day and was showing it to a friend as we walked by (he asked if it was stone inside too). The guards freaked out - instead of politely explaining the policy (no badge, no entry) and asking that I go back from whence I came, they acted like I intentionally peed in their coffee while smiling and talking smack about their mothers. Two guys over lunch wearing suits and ties looking at a building... clearly a grave threat.

Boston will forever end at 3rd.  But Main could be reconnected from 1st to 3rd.  It would take demolishing part of the Williams annex building and the Hyatt.  If the Hyatt tower was in the way I would say it wasn't doable but it's the meetings space on the west side of the tower.  If that could be rebuilt on the east side then you could extend Main along Boulder Plaza.

If you just made Cincinnati and Boulder 2-way streets it would do a lot to help.  Right now if you're cruising down Boston, the CBD's coolest street, and you want to get over to the Brady, you've got to go way the heck out of your way to get over there. 

Boston to 3rd;
turn left on 3rd;
west on 3rd (2 blocks) to Boulder;
turn right on Boulder;
north on Boulder (5 blocks) to the Brady Theater.

Seven blocks is seven blocks.  The cruising distance to get over there would not be any shorter with Boston or Main re-opened, or with Boulder as a 2-way street. 

However, with a 2-way Boulder, the cruising distance back from the Brady Theater to 3rd and Boston could be shortened from nine blocks to seven.  The walking distance would be seven blocks, regardless.

To rebuild the meeting space on the east side you would take out the green space. You would also have to redo the parking structure that is under the green space. You could then reconstruct what you just tore down and reinforce the foundation of the hotel as it needs to drop ~20 feet in elevation to connect to 2nd.

Then you can demolish a few hundred thousand square feet of a fully occupied Williams building (including the cafeteria, data center, gym and sky bridge to the hotel) and extend the road a further block to hook up at 1st.

The result would save a one block detour.   Someone else can figure the price on that, safe bet it is in this format $X00,000,000.00 (solve for X).


Stopped future super blocks should be a no-brainer. If there are super blocks that have a path that can be a road, or are underutilized, or can be tunneled under...lets talk. But why do we keep discussing tearing down structures portions of downtown that are dense, heavily utilized, and would cost hundreds of millions of dollars? The cost benefit is dubious, and the chance of ever getting funding or public support is zero.

A well-placed meteor strike would save millions or a billion or so.

Even with my basic philosophy of "anything worth doing is worth overdoing", that seems just a little excessive....

Earthquake might be more likely??