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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: cannon_fodder on March 02, 2016, 08:56:54 am



Title: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 02, 2016, 08:56:54 am
http://www.newson6.com/story/31363617/bob-dylans-archives-coming-to-tulsa

The GKFF and the University of Tulsa have acquired the Bob Dylan Archives and intend to build a permanent home for them in the Brady Arts District.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: rdj on March 02, 2016, 09:07:21 am
Great news!


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: davideinstein on March 02, 2016, 09:08:38 pm
Awesome.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 03, 2016, 09:05:20 am
http://www.newson6.com/story/31363617/bob-dylans-archives-coming-to-tulsa

The GKFF and the University of Tulsa have acquired the Bob Dylan Archives and intend to build a permanent home for them in the Brady Arts District.

I wonder where this will be. It mentions a place in the Brady District nearby the Woody Guthrie Center  but also sounds like some stuff might be put in the Guthrie Center (could be good if used as a promo for the other, but could confuse some into thinking that is all there is).

Wherever it goes, it could be a good tourism draw if done and marketed well (them being chosen over 2 other places is a good sign they have some nice plans)

Lots of great stuff coming to the Brady District! This is really creating a museum hub for Tulsa/Oklahoma (OK Pop Museum will  be right there also). Really happy about GKFF and TU's support of Tulsa!


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 03, 2016, 09:19:26 am
The Guthrie Center is fully utilized. There is ~1500 square feet of open space used for traveling exhibits, I could see that temporarily showing some Dylan exhibits... but nothing permanent. The Dylan Archive ($15-20mil) apparently dwarfs the Guthrie Center ($3mil) in scale.

The University of Tulsa and Guthrie (via GKFF) have space along Brady across from Guthrie Green.  A large reason they won the bid is because of how well Gilcrease is managed by TU and how well the Guthrie transaction went with GKFF. Gilcrease is archiving some of the items now, but Gilcrease has no presence int he Brady. I'm assuming they want to get a presence there and this is a great way of doing it.

GKFF happens to own several tracks of land across from Griffin Media (north of Gypsy Coffee) that are underutilized, BOK Foundation also owns the rest of the building on Archer where the library is going in, and BOK owns the entire block where the Pop Museum is going and the block to the east of there. Plenty of land held by partner entities in the area to build on. Also some under utilized old buildings still hovering around the immediate area (though the number is dwindling).

The speculation will be fun!


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 03, 2016, 09:21:17 am
m


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: swake on March 03, 2016, 09:35:17 am
The Guthrie Center is fully utilized. There is ~1500 square feet of open space used for traveling exhibits, I could see that temporarily showing some Dylan exhibits... but nothing permanent. The Dylan Archive ($15-20mil) apparently dwarfs the Guthrie Center ($3mil) in scale.

The University of Tulsa and Guthrie (via GKFF) have space along Brady across from Guthrie Green.  A large reason they won the bid is because of how well Gilcrease is managed by TU and how well the Guthrie transaction went with GKFF. Gilcrease is archiving some of the items now, but Gilcrease has no presence int he Brady. I'm assuming they want to get a presence there and this is a great way of doing it.

GKFF happens to own several tracks of land across from Griffin Media (north of Gypsy Coffee) that are underutilized, BOK Foundation also owns the rest of the building on Archer where the library is going in, and BOK owns the entire block where the Pop Museum is going and the block to the east of there. Plenty of land held by partner entities in the area to build on. Also some under utilized old buildings still hovering around the immediate area (though the number is dwindling).

The speculation will be fun!

The Zarrow Center is Gilcrease/TU

https://gilcrease.org/zarrow/



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 03, 2016, 11:31:09 am
The Zarrow Center is Gilcrease/TU

https://gilcrease.org/zarrow/

I knew it was TU, the entire theme is the same as all renovated buildings at TU. The doors say University of Tulsa, they have student exhibits, etc. But in my numerous trips to exhibits and events there, I've never associated it with Gilcrease. The website indicates the arts classes are sponsored by Gilcrease.... who knew?

Not much of a presence for Gilcrease, which has 5 times the exhibits than it can display in its current campus. The Dylan Archives could easily fill a museum, Gilcrease could easily fill another. I can't imagine not having a stand alone facility.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Breadburner on March 03, 2016, 12:24:47 pm
Who is going to translate.....


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: swake on March 03, 2016, 12:29:55 pm
Who is going to translate.....

Tom Petty of course


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Breadburner on March 03, 2016, 12:33:52 pm
Tom Petty of course

That made me laugh....!!!


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: swake on March 03, 2016, 12:47:43 pm
That made me laugh....!!!

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-segment---dana-carvey-as-bob-dylan/n10039


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 03, 2016, 04:07:28 pm

The speculation will be fun!

The answer is blowing in the wind..


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 29, 2017, 12:36:41 pm
Massive Bob Dylan Archive Opens in Oklahoma
Tulsa collection available to researchers, with planned public center in the works

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/massive-bob-dylan-archive-opens-in-oklahoma-w473929

Quote
Select items from the collection will eventually be exhibited at the Bob Dylan Center, the primary public venue for the archive. The George Kaiser Family Foundation's Executive Director Ken Levit, and University of Tulsa President Gerard Clancy, announced that they are now accepting design proposals for the Bob Dylan Center, which will be housed in an existing building in Tulsa's Brady Arts District. An expected opening date has yet to be announced.

Design proposal submissions go here:
http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/





Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on March 29, 2017, 05:58:08 pm
What building do we think it will be in?


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: saintnicster on March 30, 2017, 08:50:43 am
What building do we think it will be in?
http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/

the "Tulsa Paper Company Building", which currently has Zarrow and Philbrook Downtown. 


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on March 30, 2017, 12:04:47 pm
http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/

the "Tulsa Paper Company Building", which currently has Zarrow and Philbrook Downtown. 

Would those institutions be relocating? It doesn't seem plausible that every museum in town is going to maintain a branch in a single building downtown.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: saintnicster on March 30, 2017, 12:42:45 pm
Would those institutions be relocating? It doesn't seem plausible that every museum in town is going to maintain a branch in a single building downtown.
That I couldn't quite figure out.

My WAG aligns with is that since TU is partnering with them on the archive, they would at the very least, re-purpose the "Zarrow Center for Art & Education" to become the Bob Dylan Center.  The "TPC Bid Documents" link included the engineering plans for both spaces, so heck, they may even be replacing both.  EDIT - But my gut feeling says it'll be just Zarrow.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: swake on March 30, 2017, 07:08:27 pm
Would someone be moving to the new building? I thought for sure the Dylan center would go in there.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 01, 2017, 03:47:41 pm
Would someone be moving to the new building? I thought for sure the Dylan center would go in there.

So it appears the new Archer building is filling up, so I don't think anything will relocate there on account of the Dylan archives:

Quote
When the building is fully completed by spring 2017, it will feature 35 Tulsa Artist Fellowship (TAF) work studios, 14 TAF apartments and 10 ground-floor retail spaces.
With nine of the 10 retail tenants confirmed, the building will include Strange Donuts, Goods Bodega, Lone Wolf restaurant and bar, Glacier Confection, Holy Mountain Records, Magic City Books, and Made.
http://gtrnews.com/greater-tulsa-reporter/14554/east-village-brady-see-new-projects


The linked GKFF page indicates that the Zarrow Center space is up for redevelopment as the Bob Dylan Center,  but the comment from the Kaiser website doesn't mention Philbrook:

Quote
The below PDF files highlight the space within the Tulsa Paper Company building that will be dedicated to the Bob Dylan Center.  This space, currently called the Zarrow Center for Art and Education, has approximately 18,000 square feet dedicated to programming. The basement is approximately 6,000 additional square feet of space dedicated to storage and mechanical systems. Apart from signage, the Bob Dylan Center project will be primarily an interior renovation and exhibit design project and will not require many, if any, changes to the exterior of the building.
http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/

I hope Zarrow relocates.  If so, where?

And is Philbrook affected by the Dylan Center or not?


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: swake on May 01, 2017, 05:01:50 pm
So it appears the new Archer building is filling up, so I don't think anything will relocate there on account of the Dylan archives:
http://gtrnews.com/greater-tulsa-reporter/14554/east-village-brady-see-new-projects


The linked GKFF page indicates that the Zarrow Center space is up for redevelopment as the Bob Dylan Center,  but the comment from the Kaiser website doesn't mention Philbrook:
http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/

I hope Zarrow relocates.  If so, where?

And is Philbrook affected by the Dylan Center or not?

Kaiser is also redeveloping a building on the far north edge of downtown. Maybe there as well


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 25, 2017, 10:16:27 am
Is this the Kaiser Development you were thinking about?

Quote
The George Kaiser Family Foundation recently purchased the land that now houses the old Western Supply warehouses at 424 North Boulder. GKFF is asking for $306,000 for streetscaping around that area, but they are still being tight-lipped about exactly what they plan to develop there.
http://www.newson6.com/story/32946944/kaiser-foundation-other-groups-plan-for-brady-district-development

If that is in the cards as more art space or apartments (or other projects the GKFF has been working on) it would really widen the livelyl portion of the Brady District.  Coupled with OK Pop basically right across the street (http://www.okpop.org/about/museum-destination/), and Cains, the new apartments (http://davenportlofts.com/), the parking garage (https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/tulsa-parking-authority-buys-land-brady-district-new-parking-facility/)... that corner of Brady could really take off and hopefully bleed into the empty lots just north of 244.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: SXSW on June 27, 2018, 09:43:56 am
They announced today this is going to be located on the parking lot at Archer & MLK next to AHHA and across from Lone Wolf.  Another parking lot biting the dust along Archer!  I haven't seen any renderings except for this one:

(https://cdn.wallpaper.com/main/2018/06/embed_bob-dylan-center-press-release-visuals-3.jpg)


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 27, 2018, 09:56:20 am
Quote

Bob Dylan Center taking shape in Tulsa with location, opening date, design firm finalized

The center will be at Archer Street and MLK Boulevard and is set to open in 2021


Olson Kundig, a Seattle architectural firm whose projects include the recent upgrade of Seattle’s iconic Space Needle, has been selected by the George Kaiser Family Foundation as lead architect and exhibit designer for The Bob Dylan Center, the future home of the Bob Dylan Archives.

The foundation also finalized the location of the center, now set to open in 2021. The new building will be constructed on what is now a parking lot at the corner of Archer Street and Martin Luther King Boulevard in the Tulsa Arts District, just east of the Hardesty Arts Center.

Olson Kundig won first place in the international design competition following an extensive evaluation process by a committee of advisers, including representatives of the George Kaiser Family Foundation and Bob Dylan’s management team.

Tulsa-based Lilly Architects is partnering with Olson Kundig as the architect of record for the project and Plains of Yonder is the partner for audio and multimedia experiences for the project.

“After reviewing proposals from top firms around the world, we agreed that Olson Kundig’s experience, talent and design aesthetic stood out as the best fit for this project,” said Ken Levit, executive director of the George Kaiser Family Foundation. “We’re excited about the vision that Olson Kundig expressed for a world-class cultural center that will do justice to the iconic Bob Dylan collection.”

This will be the firm’s first project in Oklahoma. Among its other projects are the visitors center at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the Bezos Center for Innovation at the Museum of History and Industry in Seattle, the headquarters for the South Korean luxury clothiers Shinsegae International and the Marriott Los Cabos Resort and Spa in Mexico.

Tom Kundig, architecture design principal for Olson Kundig said, “This is a deeply meaningful project for us — not only acting as architectural support to Bob’s transformational legacy and creative, disciplined force, but also in preserving the teaching value of his legacy for future generations.”

Alan Maskin, design principal of exhibits for Olson Kundig said: “Since the 1960s, I have been inspired by the role that change and reinvention have played in the creative life of Bob Dylan. I’m grateful to the George Kaiser Foundation and the Dylan Center Advisory Council for selecting our team to reveal and share the treasure of a largely unseen archive to future audiences in perpetuity.”

In 2016, Dylan cited the Woody Guthrie Center, which the Kaiser foundation established in 2013 after acquiring the archives of the influential folk songwriter, as one of the reasons he chose Tulsa for his own archives.

“I’m glad that my archives, which have been collected all these years, have finally found a home and are to be included with the works of Woody Guthrie and especially alongside all the valuable artifacts from the Native American Nations (in Philbrook Downtown). To me, it makes a lot of sense and it’s a great honor,” Dylan said.

The center, dedicated to the study and appreciation of Dylan and his worldwide cultural significance, is expected to open in 2021. In the interim, the foundation plans to stage an ongoing series of Dylan-related Tulsa events under the banner of The Bob Dylan Center. Information on these events will be posted at bobdylancenter.com.

The center will be readily accessible by artists, historians, musicologists, cultural critics and the public seeking a deeper comprehension of Dylan’s work, the myriad of influences that it embodies and the offshoots that he has inspired.

The center will coexist and interact with two related entities: The Bob Dylan Archive, located at the Helmerich Center for American Research at Gilcrease Museum, the archives’ permanent repository accessible only to qualified researchers and scholars; and The Institute for Bob Dylan Studies at the University of Tulsa, an academic program focused on Dylan and related cultural subjects.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/artsandentertainment/bob-dylan-center-taking-shape-in-tulsa-with-location-opening/article_ed84af43-8115-5bb7-9d28-d562b2cff543.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/artsandentertainment/bob-dylan-center-taking-shape-in-tulsa-with-location-opening/article_ed84af43-8115-5bb7-9d28-d562b2cff543.html)


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 27, 2018, 10:00:45 am
Quote
The new building will be constructed on what is now a parking lot at the corner of Archer Street and Martin Luther King Boulevard in the Tulsa Arts District, just east of the Hardesty Arts Center.

Another parking lot bites the dust. I do wonder where the parking for Hardesty, Zarrow and other museums will be. Hopefully a parking solution is planned because that area is already mostly full all the time and no parking will deter museum visitors.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2018, 10:11:14 am
Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan...



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 27, 2018, 03:59:12 pm
Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan...



Not at all. The people funding the Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie museums are liberal democrats (GKFF) and they're going in to a liberal area and it is publicized by a more moderate-to-liberal-leaning newspaper.

Also, most people can separate music and politics. You can love the music and hate their sometimes-moronic opinions.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Hoss on June 27, 2018, 04:03:58 pm
Not at all. The people funding the Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie museums are liberal democrats (GKFF) and they're going in to a liberal area and it is publicized by a more moderate-to-liberal-leaning newspaper.

Also, most people can separate music and politics. You can love the music and hate their sometimes-moronic opinions.

Lot of people I saw at the U2 concert that couldn't.  If you go to a U2 concert not expecting some politics thrown in that you may or may not like, then you're just not well-informed.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2018, 04:26:40 pm
Not at all. The people funding the Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie museums are liberal democrats (GKFF) and they're going in to a liberal area and it is publicized by a more moderate-to-liberal-leaning newspaper.

Also, most people can separate music and politics. You can love the music and hate their sometimes-moronic opinions.


It's one of those "lead a horse to water" things - just because it's there doesn't mean all right wingers must partake.  And they must be, 'cause I don't think there are enough moderates and lefties to support all that.  Guthrie festival in particular...


Yeah, maybe like Ted Nugent?   Or Toby Keith...  I see what you are saying - there are a lot of their supporters around too, supporting their moronic opinions!   Even some other than RWRE...



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Conan71 on June 28, 2018, 12:05:48 am
Not at all. The people funding the Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie museums are liberal democrats (GKFF) and they're going in to a liberal area and it is publicized by a more moderate-to-liberal-leaning newspaper.

Also, most people can separate music and politics. You can love the music and hate their sometimes-moronic opinions.

Actually, I wouldn't consider GKFF "Liberal Democrats" at least not Mr. Kaiser or Kenny Levitt.  Just caring and thinking people with progressive ideas.  Not sure about Kenny, but I know Mr. Kaiser has contributed to quite a few Republican candidates and causes and I do believe Phil Lakin, who sits on the board of GKFF and is the director of TCF, another GK initiative is a registered Republican.

The older I get, the less I recognize "conservative" or "liberal" and the more I recognize original thought and rational discussion. 

Tulsa would be such a different place without George Kaiser and the visionaries he's hired to work for him.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 07:33:16 am
Actually, I wouldn't consider GKFF "Liberal Democrats" at least not Mr. Kaiser or Kenny Levitt.  Just caring and thinking people with progressive ideas.  Not sure about Kenny, but I know Mr. Kaiser has contributed to quite a few Republican candidates and causes and I do believe Phil Lakin, who sits on the board of GKFF and is the director of TCF, another GK initiative is a registered Republican.

The older I get, the less I recognize "conservative" or "liberal" and the more I recognize original thought and rational discussion. 

Tulsa would be such a different place without George Kaiser and the visionaries he's hired to work for him.


Kaiser contributes 10:1  Dem to Repub.


Right about that - you are either thinking or not....some here accuse me of being lib, but I am not.  Just shows how radicalized extremist they have become.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 28, 2018, 07:47:32 am

Yeah, maybe like Ted Nugent?   Or Toby Keith...  I see what you are saying - there are a lot of their supporters around too, supporting their moronic opinions!   Even some other than RWRE...




More like Woody Guthrie who strongly supported socialism and defended the USSR long after it was known that Stalin was murdering hundreds of thousands of his own people ("The Great Purge" where 700,000 were killed). He was actually quite a twisted fella.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 28, 2018, 08:01:16 am
Lot of people I saw at the U2 concert that couldn't.  If you go to a U2 concert not expecting some politics thrown in that you may or may not like, then you're just not well-informed.

That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: hello on June 28, 2018, 08:55:31 am
That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.

It was U2. Bono has had a God complex since the 80s. If someone is upset at being preached at during a U2 concert that's on them.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: DTowner on June 28, 2018, 08:56:55 am
It’s funny that the discussion turned to political labels in a thread about a guy who in many ways is an enigma and defied labels the politics of the day tried to place on him.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 28, 2018, 09:49:47 am
It’s funny that the discussion turned to political labels in a thread about a guy who in many ways is an enigma and defied labels the politics of the day tried to place on him.

Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan...


Well blame heironymouspasparagus for yet another inaccurate inflammatory statement that this is an "extremist right wing state". Complete lie that is intended to be an insult (or he's just trolling as usual). We just legalized marijuana by a large margin (with nearly 90% voting yes in downtown/midtown, the area where these museums are and where those who support them tend to live) and the top republican governor was a pretty moderate candidate who was actually for raising taxes in the right situations to achieve progress.

There's nothing ironic that the Tulsa World is publicizing that a museum for one of the most famous American musicians of all time is coming to Tulsa, Oklahoma (and that he has tens of thousands of fans here that will be happy about this). His museum will be next door to AHHA, and Zarrow and on the same block as Guthrie and 108 Contemporary so it'll fit right in.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 28, 2018, 09:56:47 am
Yeah, maybe like Ted Nugent?   Or Toby Keith...  I see what you are saying - there are a lot of their supporters around too, supporting their moronic opinions!   Even some other than RWRE...


I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Hoss on June 28, 2018, 10:34:16 am
I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  

If you're inferring Hitler in those, explain to me how his regime was 'left-leaning'.  Please.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: rebound on June 28, 2018, 10:48:01 am
If you're inferring Hitler in those, explain to me how his regime was 'left-leaning'.  Please.

I think he's putting Hitler in as the afterthought fascist...  But he's not wrong on the general numbers.  The deaths in Communist Russia, China, and Cambodia are close to, or possibly over (different estimates) 100M.

Holding aside Woody, who was definitely a Socialist (the Depression and the Dust Bowl will do things to people),  I'd be hard-pressed to name a prominent rock band that was/is actually Socialist.  Social-Democrat?  More left-leaning and supportive of higher levels of govt involvement?  Sure.  But unless we classify countries like Canada and England as Socialist, I think the label would be hard to support.

But I agree on the whole "let's wear the Che shirt and be cool thing", as I am sure very few of those people wearing the shirt would actually want to live the way Che wanted us to. 





Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 10:52:30 am
I was specifically talking about the moronic opinions of embracing communism or socialism and it somehow being "cool" for rock/rap stars.

While many musicians (especially rock/classic bands) tend to be extreme leftists, there are practically no rock bands that are extreme-right or even right-wing at all. Of course country music will have many republican/right-leaning bands, but definitely no famous bands who are publically fascists.

Somehow it is cool to embrace the left-leaning ideologies of mass-genocide but it's completely uncool to be a free-market conservative. The two deadliest ideologies of the 20th century led to well over 100 million deaths: communism/socialism.
Fascism is terrible also, although not nearly as deadly, but it is already shunned and virtually no one goes around bragging about being fascist like that's a good thing whereas there's a culture of wearing communist patches and Che Guevera shirts, and becoming a socialist/communist among rock/rap bands and young people.  


I know what you meant - I just clarified it to show the equal extremist right wing fascist leanings of at least as many in the other direction.  You didn't catch that??

And practically no rockers that are right wingers, huh?  Whew!  Where did you grow up??   Ted Nugent is an extremist right winger, if ya hadn't caught that by now.  There are actually quite an assortment...some you might even recognize.  Kid Rock.  Johnny Ramone.  Eric Clapton.  50 Cent (rapper, NOT rock, and drug dealer at 12), Elvis Presley, Phil Collins, Gene Simmons, and others I really don't know, but not really rock...like one of the Spice Girls.  And who could ever forget Lynyrd Skynyrd.  Some I like quite a bit - Sammy Hagar, and Meatloaf.  I like Ted's music, too, but don't tell anyone... But then I am not an extremist left or right.  I am an extreme moderate.

Fascism not nearly as deadly, huh?  From someone obviously not familiar with history.  Like US history... A long, glorious history of extermination and genocide.  Between us and Hitler, we got all the commies beat on extermination.  Where is it you think the Nazi's and Stalin got the pattern for what they did??  They knew history.  In fairness, we got a lot of our learning from the Dutch and Genghis Khan, but we did not have to embrace and repeat.

Yeah, no one goes around bragging about being a fascist, except the people like go to Charlottesville - the ones highly praised by Trump as being many fine people.  You again, appear to have NO clue about the past of Trump and his family - they have a LONG history, back about 100 years, to his grandfather, of bigoted, racist, fascist thought AND action, documented repeatedly in the news, and Federal Courts.  But that is easily dismissed and overlooked, ain't it?   After all, he is "our guy" to those elements.

You would also likely to be one to dismiss and excuse the Bush family for grandpa's role in supporting and financing the Nazi Germany war machine through their banking interests almost to the end of 1942 - well after our kids were getting killed by the Nazi's.

Here is a little clue for you - any dictator whether claiming to be left or right, is just another dictator, and as such, worthy of condemnation and elimination.  They are all the same no matter what ideology they make noise about.



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 11:05:18 am

Well blame heironymouspasparagus for yet another inaccurate inflammatory statement that this is an "extremist right wing state". Complete lie that is intended to be an insult (or he's just trolling as usual).


There's nothing ironic that the Tulsa World is publicizing that a museum for one of the most famous American musicians of all time is coming to Tulsa, Oklahoma (and that he has tens of thousands of fans here that will be happy about this). His museum will be next door to AHHA, and Zarrow and on the same block as Guthrie and 108 Contemporary so it'll fit right in.



Projection, deflection.


Yeah, he does have lots of fans.  I am one and have been for a very long time.  And this goes all the way back around to what I said initially, "Isn't it ironic how such an extremist right wing state can give so much lip service to such not extremist right wing performers...?   We love our Woody Guthrie, U2, and Bob Dylan..."  Dylan and Guthrie have not always been popular in this state - this is a VERY recent phenomenon.  I guess they have both had images blurred enough by the passage of time so they can now be acceptable to Oklahoma.


And yeah, we ARE an extremist right wing state - have been all along.  Not an insult, maybe just a tiny touch derisive, just a statement of fact.  Just because you don't recognize what that is, or means, shows exactly how radical right is the "norm" here.   You have no normal frame of reference to compare to.   If you need examples, just look at all the wasted taxpayer money spent to pass bills over and over again that they know are illegal - extremist right wing bills - they know will be held illegal in court, again, and yet...keep on doing that instead of fixing real problems in the state to benefit the citizens; problems like infrastructure, public safety, education.



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 28, 2018, 11:11:48 am
That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry.

 ::) Not much of a U2 fan, huh?  Don't worry, I'm not a huge fan either.  But I realize that they are known for being political activists in their music, to adopting various causes, and overt political statements in their concerts. I don't mean subtly or sometimes, I mean it is part of what they are known (http://kgou.org/post/how-u2-spent-four-decades-redefining-international-activism) for, their wikipedia page even has a section on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2#Campaigning_and_activism).   It's in the encyclopedia (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Bono)! It isn't like they suddenly started dropping politics on their fans, this has been their thing for decades.

It would be like going to a Garth Brooks concert and being upset that he was wearing jeans and a cowboy hat. If you don't want to see someone dressed like  a cowboy, maybe a country music concert isn't for you.  Sure, you have the right to be angry at anything you want, but if you didn't know Garth Brooks was country or that U2 was political... that's ultimately on you.


Also, I kind of like that a discussion on the Bob Dylan Archives turned into a political discussion.  I know Dylan turned his back on politics decades ago, but it is still fitting.  We Live in a Political World.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 11:23:19 am
I think he's putting Hitler in as the afterthought fascist...  But he's not wrong on the general numbers.  The deaths in Communist Russia, China, and Cambodia are close to, or possibly over (different estimates) 100M.

Holding aside Woody, who was definitely a Socialist (the Depression and the Dust Bowl will do things to people),  I'd be hard-pressed to name a prominent rock band that was/is actually Socialist.  Social-Democrat?  More left-leaning and supportive of higher levels of govt involvement?  Sure.  But unless we classify countries like Canada and England as Socialist, I think the label would be hard to support.

But I agree on the whole "let's wear the Che shirt and be cool thing", as I am sure very few of those people wearing the shirt would actually want to live the way Che wanted us to. 






The Who did a whole song about some general concepts of the 20th century.  Won't Get Fooled Again.   New boss Che and Castro, same as the old boss.  Just as Batista, the US backed dictator made an environment many would not like to live in.

Che also was active in trying to prevent the CIA/United Fruit Company overthrow of Guatemala's elected government.   Kind of some formative moments there.

There is a long history of that kind of stuff worldwide where we played a direct part in getting rid of lawfully elected governments to put our puppets in place.   Noriega in Panama.  Reagan's efforts in Nicaragua.  The whole Iran show from the 30's on.   Depending on who is doing the estimating, we have had a direct helping hand in the deaths of somewhere between 15 to 25 million people - mostly civilians - since WWII - "In the name of freedom..."  

But hey, we don't need to know no stinkin' history - we's 'Muricans!!




Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 28, 2018, 11:26:19 am
Also, I chuckle at the "who's the biggest mass murderer" debate.  Hitler and Mussolini were right wing fascists. Stalin and Mao were leftist communists.  They were all narcissistic authoritarians.

The primary aim of all of them was to accumulate and use the power of the state to advance their own egos and prosperity.  Loyalty to them was more important than anything else, because it is the only thing seen as always helping to advance that goal.  Civil rights, rule of law, individual liberty, checks and balances, actually being a Republic (they always pretend to be a representative government), or really adhering to any political ideology... irrelevant.  Take any system you want, place an egotistical narcissistic at the helm, then give them enough space and any system can be driven into the ground. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter.

Political ideology is a circle.  At one point the far left and the far right are nearly indistinguishable.  One side represses the people for "patriotism" or "God" and the other does it for "the greater good" or "the masses."  You end up in the same place. The ideology that is used as an excuse for the results is secondary.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 11:28:04 am
That's arguable as U2 is a household name and not everyone follows everything they do, but regardless they still have the right to be angry about being preached at when they paid $70+ a ticket for a show. When they have a captive audience they force propaganda on, that is not "separating music and politics" and those in attendance have the right to be angry. I guess they deserve it for paying so much to see an elderly band that hasn't made anything good in over a quarter century.


It's somehow the fan's fault??   As if U2 hasn't been well known to be politically active since their inception??   And how that has been in not just their music, but in every concert they have ever given??   Truly the classic definition of insanity for those so-called "fans" - expecting different results in Tulsa for some reason.

No.  They have no right to be angry.  They do have the right not to be stupid, but obviously didn't exercise that right.  



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2018, 11:29:58 am
Also, I chuckle at the "who's the biggest mass murderer" debate.  Hitler and Mussolini were right wing fascists. Stalin and Mao were leftist communists.  They were all narcissistic authoritarians.

The primary aim of all of them was to accumulate and use the power of the state to advance their own egos and prosperity.  Loyalty to them was more important than anything else, because it is the only thing seen as always helping to advance that goal.  Civil rights, rule of law, individual liberty, checks and balances, actually being a Republic (they always pretend to be a representative government), or really adhering to any political ideology... irrelevant.  Take any system you want, place an egotistical narcissistic at the helm, then give them enough space and any system can be driven into the ground. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter.

Political ideology is a circle.  At one point the far left and the far right are nearly indistinguishable.  One side represses the people for "patriotism" or "God" and the other does it for "the greater good" or "the masses."  You end up in the same place. The ideology that is used as an excuse for the results is secondary.


Exactly what I said just above.  They are identical.

Quote;
"Here is a little clue for you - any dictator whether claiming to be left or right, is just another dictator, and as such, worthy of condemnation and elimination.  They are all the same no matter what ideology they make noise about."



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: rebound on June 28, 2018, 01:20:38 pm
Also, I chuckle at the "who's the biggest mass murderer" debate.  Hitler and Mussolini were right wing fascists. Stalin and Mao were leftist communists.  They were all narcissistic authoritarians.

The primary aim of all of them was to accumulate and use the power of the state to advance their own egos and prosperity.  Loyalty to them was more important than anything else, because it is the only thing seen as always helping to advance that goal.  Civil rights, rule of law, individual liberty, checks and balances, actually being a Republic (they always pretend to be a representative government), or really adhering to any political ideology... irrelevant.  Take any system you want, place an egotistical narcissistic at the helm, then give them enough space and any system can be driven into the ground. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter.

Political ideology is a circle.  At one point the far left and the far right are nearly indistinguishable.  One side represses the people for "patriotism" or "God" and the other does it for "the greater good" or "the masses."  You end up in the same place. The ideology that is used as an excuse for the results is secondary.

Well said.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 29, 2018, 08:08:34 am

I know what you meant - I just clarified it to show the equal extremist right wing fascist leanings of at least as many in the other direction.  You didn't catch that??

And practically no rockers that are right wingers, huh?  Whew!  Where did you grow up??   Ted Nugent is an extremist right winger, if ya hadn't caught that by now.  There are actually quite an assortment...some you might even recognize.  Kid Rock.  Johnny Ramone.  Eric Clapton.  50 Cent (rapper, NOT rock, and drug dealer at 12), Elvis Presley, Phil Collins, Gene Simmons, and others I really don't know, but not really rock...like one of the Spice Girls.  And who could ever forget Lynyrd Skynyrd.  Some I like quite a bit - Sammy Hagar, and Meatloaf.  I like Ted's music, too, but don't tell anyone... But then I am not an extremist left or right.  I am an extreme moderate.

Fascism not nearly as deadly, huh?  From someone obviously not familiar with history.  Like US history... A long, glorious history of extermination and genocide.  Between us and Hitler, we got all the commies beat on extermination.  Where is it you think the Nazi's and Stalin got the pattern for what they did??  They knew history.  In fairness, we got a lot of our learning from the Dutch and Genghis Khan, but we did not have to embrace and repeat.

Yeah, no one goes around bragging about being a fascist, except the people like go to Charlottesville - the ones highly praised by Trump as being many fine people.  You again, appear to have NO clue about the past of Trump and his family - they have a LONG history, back about 100 years, to his grandfather, of bigoted, racist, fascist thought AND action, documented repeatedly in the news, and Federal Courts.  But that is easily dismissed and overlooked, ain't it?   After all, he is "our guy" to those elements.

You would also likely to be one to dismiss and excuse the Bush family for grandpa's role in supporting and financing the Nazi Germany war machine through their banking interests almost to the end of 1942 - well after our kids were getting killed by the Nazi's.

Here is a little clue for you - any dictator whether claiming to be left or right, is just another dictator, and as such, worthy of condemnation and elimination.  They are all the same no matter what ideology they make noise about.



No, even the extreme right wing people in the US don't "brag about being fascists" (Trump supporters claim to be very anti-fascist and I've talked/discussed/read opinions of many Trump supporters without finding one who claimed to like fascism.). The point was influential rock bands in general tend to claim to be socialist/communist far more often (and lyrics that support those ideologies are pretty common). Especially in Americana folk (Bright Eyes, Pete Seeger) and punk/rock (The Clash, Dead Kennedys, Dropkick Murphys, NOFX, Rage Against The Machine, Sex Pistols, The Smiths based on lyrics).

Yes, communism/socialism was far more deadly in the 20th century (and 21st) with well over 100 million deaths (some estimates say 142 million) vs somewhere in the 15-20 million range for Hitler and around 30 million including Mussolini et al. All of those are terrible, but it shouldn't be "cool" to support, by far, the deadliest political system to ever exist. It absolutely is not cool to claim to be "fascist", but among bands, who are very influential to young people, it has become somewhat cool to claim to be socialist or communist and nearly every "young person" band is very left leaning. For every Ted Nungent (nice cherry pick!), there's 100 rock/rap bands on the far left.

Most people don't know about Prescott Bush's crucial involvement in providing essential steel and financing to the Hitler war machine, but it is one of the top reasons I am not a fan of the Bush dynasty and most political family dynasties in the US. The US is more of a corporate oligarchy behind the scenes with the illusion of a representational democracy. At a local level, it can still be very democratic (but on stuff that isn't quite as important in the big scheme of things), but we have no say on a national level, just the illusion of choice on a few hot button issues that make little long-term difference compared to the trillions thrown away on so much like military/wars to drown the US in debt and other policies intended to enslave individuals in debt and also create an immense police state for when they've had enough.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Herb Albert on June 29, 2018, 08:22:23 am
This forum sometimes... Geez. Thought this was a thread on the archives. Seems like most of the conversation should be moved to some other thread. Maybe called Deep Thoughts or something...

Who all is familiar with Olson Kundig? Have you seen their work? If not look them up. Truly one of the best architecture firms in the world. I'm very excited to have a building of theirs in Tulsa. I think it will help elevate the architecture experience in Tulsa.
 


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 29, 2018, 09:11:31 am
This forum sometimes... Geez. Thought this was a thread on the archives. Seems like most of the conversation should be moved to some other thread. Maybe called Deep Thoughts or something...

Who all is familiar with Olson Kundig? Have you seen their work? If not look them up. Truly one of the best architecture firms in the world. I'm very excited to have a building of theirs in Tulsa. I think it will help elevate the architecture experience in Tulsa.
 



Or maybe Lunatic Fringe Rantings...?



The only pic I can find for that building - please point out others if you know of some - is here a page or so back, looks like an inside view, with shadows showing lots of glass.  Here is the question for you (and everyone) - does building efficiency** enter into the equation of what constitutes great architectural design?   And second question;  should it??

I bet that most if not all their buildings are LEED certified at some level - which means they are guaranteed not to 'work' as a building that would consider a majority of the ** below.

O-K has some truly beautiful designs if you wander around their website.  Lots of glass prevents any sort of energy efficiency from ever happening...cannot get there from here with average R-4.  Or less.


**Including things like comfort - temperature/humidity stability and control.  Energy usage.  Proper ventilation.



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: SXSW on June 29, 2018, 09:40:10 am
This forum sometimes... Geez. Thought this was a thread on the archives. Seems like most of the conversation should be moved to some other thread. Maybe called Deep Thoughts or something...

Who all is familiar with Olson Kundig? Have you seen their work? If not look them up. Truly one of the best architecture firms in the world. I'm very excited to have a building of theirs in Tulsa. I think it will help elevate the architecture experience in Tulsa.
 

Olson Kundig does great work.  Has anyone seen any exterior renderings of the Dylan Archives yet? 

The Kirkland Museum in Denver is awesome:
(https://images1.westword.com/imager/u/745xauto/7144284/art.jpg)


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 29, 2018, 11:42:19 am


Or maybe Lunatic Fringe Rantings...?




That should be your username as a warning. Or maybe I'll just hide your comments because they often add nothing and read like a troll.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 29, 2018, 12:00:06 pm
Olson Kundig does great work.  Has anyone seen any exterior renderings of the Dylan Archives yet? 

Nope, it seems like they are playing it close to the chest.  Previous documents talked about using the Zarrow space (http://www.gkff.org/bobdylancenter/), so I'm not sure how useful those design guidelines would be to the current project.  But they discussed 18k square feet plus a 6k foot basement for mechanical and other, so ~24k feet.  The new announced space appears to be 125ft x. 100 ft. So if they use most of it a 2 or 3 story structure would seem likely. 

All speculation, of course.  I'm excited to see the design.

The architectural world is interested, but doesn't seem to have info either:
https://www.wallpaper.com/lifestyle/bob-dylan-center-oklahoma-olson-kundig-architects-announcement


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 29, 2018, 12:02:52 pm
That should be your username as a warning. Or maybe I'll just hide your comments because they often add nothing and read like a troll.


Lol.... must be because I use the real trolls as templates for so much of what I write...

It truly is as easy as copy/paste, change the political 'sense' and voila'...my posts done for me.



Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: D-TownTulsan on July 01, 2018, 08:24:37 am
Olson Kundig is a great group of designers, and having Lilly Architects on board is a great look for Tulsa's architectural scene.

The architecture world really is taking notice, not just with this Bob Dylan Center, but with the city as well!
Archdaily, the most visited architecture website worldwide, has a pretty good write-up on it...
https://www.archdaily.com/897273/olson-kundig-chosen-to-design-the-bob-dylan-center-in-tulsa-oklahoma


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: Herb Albert on August 02, 2018, 08:47:27 am
An Interview with Tom Kundig and Alan Maskin aired last night on public radio Tulsa, they offer up some early insight on what they have planed for the Bob Dylan Center. For any of those who may be interested check out the link below.   

http://kwgs.drupal.publicbroadcasting.net/post/getting-know-architects-who-will-design-bob-dylan-center


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: MostSeriousness on November 26, 2019, 12:27:08 pm
https://www.newson6.com/story/41374774/bob-dylan-center-location-announced-in-downtown-tulsa

Publicly announced - Bob Dylan Center taking over the Philbrook Downtown space


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: SXSW on November 26, 2019, 03:20:27 pm
https://www.newson6.com/story/41374774/bob-dylan-center-location-announced-in-downtown-tulsa

Publicly announced - Bob Dylan Center taking over the Philbrook Downtown space

So are they not building a new facility now?


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: sgrizzle on November 26, 2019, 09:48:18 pm
So are they not building a new facility now?

Nope


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: SXSW on November 26, 2019, 10:49:58 pm
Nope

Dang was hoping to see that parking lot go away.  Maybe a future arts-oriented use can go there.  I feel like Philbrook Downtown filled a contemporary art void in Tulsa so maybe something similar affiliated with TU.


Title: Re: Coming soon to Tulsa: Bob Dylan Archives
Post by: shavethewhales on November 27, 2019, 02:04:04 pm
That's disappointing. It's a small lot, so I was wondering how the archives were going to fit, but I was hoping for something architecturally interesting and significant for the area. Losing the Philbrook extension is definite subtraction in the attractions of the area. It's probably all for the best though. I don't think the Philbrook extension got a lot of visitors, and BDA will make better use of the space.