The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

As reported by The Frontier.  (https://www.readfrontier.com/during-vision-2025-renewal-talks-bartlett-suggests-putting-a-restaurant-on-turkey-mountain/)

I didn't think I could like this man's development policy any less. I was wrong. Not sure where to start...

First, I thought this might be a Tulsa version of an Onion article. The language "right on top of Turkey Mountain" seems so out of touch. It is what you would expect the opposition to say, "they want to build a restaurant right on top of Turkey Mountain!"

Second, this is yet another proposal to take park land and turn it into commercial space. Disturbing trend. Why aren't we turning all the surplus city property into retail? The police department has an HQ right on Riverside, prime real estate to be turned into retail - not everyone likes police stations, or whatever, but everyone would like a new strip mall! Anyone wonder what is going to happen to the parks along the river when we put water in it? I have no doubts now.

Third, if you put a restaurant "right on top of Turkey" such that it has a view of the city, you then have a road going right to the top of Turkey, and power lines, and water, and sewer.  You would have to come off of Elwood/61st and go straight over to the river. Cutting Turkey directly in half with the road and destroying all three major trails. Of course, you would also have to build more parking lots as the currently lots are both often full and would require a walk to get to the new restaurant --- like most Oklahoman's can be expected to walk! Ha!

Sure, he tried to back off and make it sound like he was talking about the area that is for sale. But that's not what he said - he said "right on top of Turkey Mountain" and indicated views of the City of Tulsa. The land that is for sale is not on top of Turkey Mountain, and it offers no views of the City of Tulsa. Shenanigans.

Fourth: No, not everyone is interested in walking through the woods at Turkey Mountain. Some are interested in horse back riding, some trail run, some dog walk, some take tours/school kids/cub scout troops to teach them about plants, some go to bird watch, some cross country ski, and still others go mountain biking.  Of course it isn't everyone - but

Those who are going are often the most active. About every other weekend there is some event out there. A mountain bike race, a trail run, whatever. Every Wednesday in the winter there is a group that goes night mountain biking. Its a hive of activity. And those people buy things in and around Tulsa. Without Turkey, I wouldn't have mountain bikes. And that's thousands of dollars in retail sales for Tulsa businesses. And Im not alone.

Fifth... " but they will be very interested in going up to a restaurant or going up to a facility where they could sit and watch, look, experience nature, whatever that might be." First of all, within 3 miles of Turkey Mountain google says there are more than 50 restaurants... and no other Urban Wilderness areas.  Second, if you tear out nature and put in a restaurant people could go to enjoy nature? What the hell are you talking about?

It is clear nothing is worthwhile if it can be developed into retail. Quality of life just means sales tax revenue.

POSSIBILITY OF SALES TAX!  Tear down the Golden Driller! Re-route R66.  Lets level the prayer tower at ORU, taking up too much potential retail space! Parks? Who needs parks! Maybe a nice Golden Corral or even an Olive Garden!

Insert every face palm meme on the interwebs here ---> [img]-X  [ /img]

What frustrates me is in the vision proposal I presented on behalf of TUWC, I believe I did a good job of outlining how TMUWA works as a tourist destination and will generate sales tax without a cash register anywhere on the property.  This would happen by expanding the boundaries and coming up with programming which would be a huge weekly regional draw and be able to draw sporting events on a national level.  All with minimal ongoing investment from the city.

Let’s face it, our method of explosive retail growth has failed and our current mayor is oblivious to this fact.  All one needs to verify this is to see that in order to shore up shortfalls in public safety, we need special assessments.  In order to properly fund parks, we need special assessments.  In order to properly maintain streets and expand infrastructure to finally catch up to the explosion of retail growth in the last 25 years, we need, get this...special assessments.

Why so many special assessments you ask?  Tulsa’s population does not grow at a rate which can sustain the retail and necessary infrastructure growth.  Every new retail development scavenges sales tax collections from previous developments when your population growth is around 2% or less per year.  The only other way you can grow the tax base is with tourism dollars.

There’s little doubt with 65% of the city’s budget coming from sales tax it turns us into a whore for bad development.  However, a more visionary mayor would get these basic economic concepts and make wiser decisions which would dictate re-developing derelict properties before you start chopping into your recreation spaces which are a considerable draw when we try to recruit people to live in Tulsa.

TUWC's proposal did not make an ask for the property previously considered for development by Simon.  By the time funding from this tax is available, someone would have long since purchased the “Simon” land and developed it with the current commercial zoning so we did not bother to include funding for that parcel.  The thinking has been to acquire that land through private funds to head off development. 

Instead, TUWC asked for funds as part of a public/private partnership to acquire any land possible south of 61st St and to make improvements complimentary to the TMUWA which would improve access and make parts of it more user friendly to everyone.  Along those lines, we put in the proposal funds to put in additional parking, trailheads, a community/visitor center, and some trails easier to navigate by people with mobility issues (so people could enjoy nature who might not otherwise be tempted to go to TM...cough).  This would be done on the 10 acre pad on the NE corner of 61st & Hwy 75 which had already been scraped well in advance of Simon’s interest in the land.

I might be biased but outdoor recreation has the potential to be one of the better tourist draws for Tulsa.  In my research I did discover outdoor recreation is an $8.5 billion/year industry in the state of Oklahoma.  As CF alluded to, without Turkey Mountain, he would not have purchased thousands in mountain bikes.  His family is not alone. 

Turkey Mountain is a very good economic driver from creating demand for outdoor gear, bikes, shoes, etc. to the people who shop and eat in the area before and after exploring all TM has to offer.  This was also carefully pointed out in the presentation to the council and mayor.

There seems to be no qualms with the huge ask from the Gilcrease proposal.  I was at the council meeting where they gave their presentation, it was very impressive and I like it.  But with their funding mechanisms and donor base, I believe they could lower the amount they want from this package so funds could be spread around to more projects.  I do know, based on trail census which was done earlier in the year that Turkey Mountain already outdraws Gilcrease and even with the increase in visitors estimated by Gilcrease, Turkey Mountain would still out-draw it. 

Do millennials care how big the Fredric Remington collection is at Gilcrease?  How big an industry are western art museums?  How much sales tax is collected at Gilcrease?  Of course, you could build a really nice restaurant at Gilcrease and have a majestic view of downtown as well as the surrounding Osage hills.  Wait?  What?

Goddamn that guy is mentally retarded

“The community, the taxpayers, not all are interested in walking through the woods at Turkey Mountain, but they will be very interested in going up to a restaurant or going up to a facility where they could sit and watch, look, experience nature, whatever that might be.”

Retardation confirmed.

Shouldn't drag people with disabilities into this . . . he's a lazy mayor lacking critical thinking skills, elementary intelligence, or even the ability to surround himself with smart people who do have the capacity to engage in thoughtful public policy/economic analysis.  He is a shining symbol of all that is wrong with this city, all that is wrong with this state.  Thankfully, he is also too dumb to have done any real damage during his term so at least we have that.

this did not happen.

Some may remember that James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under the sainted Ronald Reagan, wanted to improve wilderness areas with hotels and golf courses. This is nothing new, just another attempt to convert unsullied land into money.

Dumbest. Mayor. Ever.

Does he really believe that a restaurant could generate enough tax revenue to offset the cost of infrastructure needed to support it? Does he actually believe that Tulsa should destroy a rare urban wilderness for a ...restaurant? Is he trying to be intentionally asinine and obtuse? Or is he that clueless?

We have thousands of restaurants in Tulsa. Hurray for us. We have ONE place like Turkey Mtn.  Dooey is such an idiot, he would destroy it out of...I can't even fathom his motivation.

One good thing: Dooey isn't smart enough to realize that his best reelection plan is silence and name recognition. The more he speaks and demonstrates the inner workings of his brain the better. Maybe then the citizens of Tulsa will awake from their stupor and elect a qualified / sentient leader next year.

That's another thing I don't understand about his comments! We already have several restaurants in nature around Tulsa such as Gilcrease which has huge windows with great views overlooking Osage Hills. Why don't more people utilize what we have already? Anyone who wants to sit and experience nature can drive there. There are plenty more like Canebrake. There is no way they could do that at Turkey Mountain without destroying what it is.

This is right in line with the retail issues. Creating more restaurants will just take away revenue from existing restaurants at great cost. The developers, banks, construction companies and the mayor all get their cuts. The drain on existing businesses is barely noticed, another restaurant closes and another strip mall goes vacant.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/AqIyyS8CIAAmYwk.jpg)
http://originaljustturkey.com/Menu.html

I am willing to bet our cities growth this year and next will be stagnant to negative.  The only reason we grew, and barely at that, the last few years was because of Hispanic population growth and that likely has declined.  Add to that the decline in oil, well I think we are basically at zero to negative population change.  

So yes, adding more retail in town basically steals from other places.  The only exceptions might be retail abutting the suburbs and "destination" retail that can pull in from the larger area.   But, as someone pointed out, Tourism can be a growth industry (A National Art Deco Museum could help with that, though I know I am biased lol).  But, Vision funds for a restaurant that would likely gut this park space, and none for a museum that could finally take great advantage of one of the most positively well known features our city has in the world? ... Hmm.  

Now there are ways I could think of that you could put a destination type restaurant on Turkey Mountain, but...  Is there a visualization or description of what he would like to do?  I could see something that was architecturally incredible, very sculptural and beautiful, or something that almost vanished into the hillside and complimented the landscape.  Something that had creative ways for you to get to it, that wouldn't disrupt the trail systems but could even perhaps enhance it, etc.  Sure, take advantage of a spectacular view while doing other positive things too.  But, if we are just talking a road, a parking lot, and a typical suburban style restaurant... not worth it. Was there any indication of which direction he was proposing?

This guy didn't barely win. Nor did Brightenstine, Fallin, and Inhofe. That means a lot of the people posting here, (though not likely to admit it) likely voted for them. I watched how badly many around here spoke about Kathy Taylor and I was in the crowd of the Veteran's Day parade that year when Brightensine in military jacket showed up to pimp Dewey. They catcalled her. Bodes badly for the next election.

We elect politicians dumb as hammers and expect them to not see us as nails.

Let me tell you something.  I'v had a really freaking tough time as of late, lot of work and a lot of projects going on. But there was one bugger of a subject that has been especially tough.  The Downtown Overlay thing.  I put a lot of work into that, met with different property owners, wrote letters, did lots of research, wrote a 3,000 word article for the Frontier, spoke with the media, worked on persuading people on the DCC, etc. etc.  And I sat there and argued for it while very important people, who were against it, that could do me a lot of harm, that  could probably destroy my business and dreams to create a museum, and hurt my abilities to do a lot of other things downtown, sat in that same room listening to me argue against them (though in my mind I really still believe I am trying to do whats best for everyone long term).  

But anyway, I got some stern lecturing to afterwards by some folks. They were not happy.  Not one bit.  But you know what, after that we immediately turned to  some subjects we both do agree on and started working towards that.  

And now add to that, a lot of my friends, some of whom I stuck my neck out with to support via the Downtown Overlay, and have worked with other projects on, have for quite a while now, not seemed to be giving me the time of day.

So here I am, with a lot in common, I would think, with some folk that I have fought for similar causes with over the years, who seem to not give me the time of day. Everyone has some points where they disagree, but these people I always thought of as having the most in common with.  Yet, those who I have fought against, then turn around and are ready to go the extra mile and help me out on projects where we do agree.

What the heck am I supposed to do here?

It kind of pisses me off that, to put it in a crude sense, that my enemies turn out to actually be the ones helping me out more than those who I thought were my friends and who barely take the time to talk to me or work together on the things we agree on.

I am just baffled by all this.

The whole thing has been tough along with the Museum and the Vision thing, some stuff I am working on with the Deco District and another project with the park by my shop, has made me sick to my stomach and stressed out wondering who my friends are and who are not.  I have dreams and things I want done.  And if my "friends" aren't there to support me, and the "devil" is.   I am really starting to wonder about all this.

I want to be someone, I am going to be someone someday.  Not because I want "to be someone" but because I am going to accomplish my dreams.  And I am watching who supports me, who gives me the time of day, and who doesn't.

Maybe some of the answer to your question of why we get the people we do in office and in power is right there.

Intelligent programming at Turkey Mountain would include well-publicized food truck events.  I wouldn’t be opposed at all to permanent picnic spots around the top parking lot or on the former Simon property.  There’s plenty of room around the lower parking lot to picnic along with some nice permanent pavilions.

Foot races, bike races, organized hikes, the annual Base Camp event, and national level sporting events (if we expand the boundaries or use our imagination better on the existing properties) all have the potential to bring in far more NEW sales tax than plopping a brick and mortar restaurant atop TM.

Poor Rick Maranon seemed to be having a hard time not chuckling while asking the mayor about this:

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/tulsa-mayor-proposes-restaurant-turkey-mountain/npM5y/

Artist, you are already someone. You've gone farther than I thought was possible with Deco, downtown retail, zoning and museum plans. Very impressive. But like a lot of passionate folks you may be slightly out of sync and lacking patience with people of limited vision and the general population. You're doing what you like and enjoying it. Treasure that.

There are no real friends in business, merely associates, hangers-on and bomb throwers.

I was just lamenting that Tulsa is still led by doctrinaires. We need more balance. More of the thinkers I see around here and less of the party guys.

Thanks Aqua for the compliments and point well taken.  I guess I am still trying to navigate how the game so to speak is played.  I know I got a little hot there, shouldn't have been dwelling on the subject like that.  It's like there are a couple of worlds.  One my "normal" every day one.  And then there is the one where your mingling with "the movers and shakers and power brokers".  In that latter world I am still a gnat lol.  But I can be a loud and sometimes persuasive gnat lol.  And I think it's when I am in that world, right in the mix of it and people are trying to do this or that, that I am a little frustrated and even confused by what I see. 

But looking at your advice I think it is best to perhaps, step back and remember that there are no real friends there, or at least that is not the point so to speak. 

Also reminds me of something I just read in a management/how to influence people book lol.  One thing that seemed to ring true was the comment that...

"You can't manage people, what you do manage is agreements."   

You can't play therapist, or worry about being a friend or not to someone, but what you do have is agreements, and you manage those.

If we were to use that metaphor with the park.  What are the agreements there? or What agreements do we want to have and how do we get them and manage them?

You're probably left handed too. ;)

I am not happy with the appearance of Blue Rose at 19th and Riverside. If that is what Dewey has in mind then no. It was a rather serene vision when the 19th street café was its only commercial entity. Once they put in the larger restaurant it required larger service areas that are very visible. Box car storage containers, ramps, refrigerated storage, employees cars parked nearby on grassy areas and the underside of the restaurant exposed to help block what had been an evening sunset on the river that was available to anyone from the street. Now that view is reserved for paying customers. Few restaurants of that caliber have their operating side of the building exposed to the public.

It however required little in the way of infra-structure improvement to the surrounding area other than expanding the already clogged parking areas. A restaurant on the "top of TM" will need some work to accomplish.

We are watching the fault line between two generations of people who have different views of development based on their differing concepts of politics, entertainment and lifestyle. The pressure between the two masses of rock are causing heat and rumbling.  My generation felt it during the 70's. Dewey isn't mentally challenged in this respect. He simply represents what has worked during his lifetime and the people he knows who have shared those experiences. They elected him. Their businessmen direct him. If you want to update their vision based on your experiences, you need to work towards getting the new generation elected. There is a city councilor that shares your views and has a business background.....

Went to Turkey this weekend, there was someone there taking a census of sorts for a graduate program. Hundreds of people, dozens of dogs, dozens of bikes, etc. Not one person commented on the lack of a restaurant in the middle of the woods. Actually, the ones I actually talked to about it thought I was joking.

But this isn't about park users. This is about "investing" in the growth of our tax base. That's the language Dewey and Bird like to use. Investing. So lets look at that. Lots of crappy assumptions probably, but lets do this "investment" exercise.

To have a restaraunt with a view of Tulsa, it has to be on top of Turkey itself and facing the river. Not near 61st. Not near the landing. Those don't meet the stated criteria of on top of turkey and view of Tulsa. To get there, there is at least a half mile of road that needs to be cut through Turkey, likely more because you would need switch backs, etc. But lets keep the math simple, .5 miles.

You would have to clear at least ten acres of land to accomplish this goal (BlueRose takes up just under 4 acres. This needs a new road, parking, restaurant itself, and would be on difficult terrain). An independent restaurant on top of Turkey might bring in $1mil a year in revenue (similar to BlueRose conservative anticipated revenue (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/river-parks-cafe-is-targeted-for-feb-opening/article_95add7f0-eadd-5a0c-a402-f907716f64ea.html), per their TIF application). For simplicity sake lets pretend its $100k in sales tax revenue. Let us also pretend that the people eating at that restaurant simply would not have eaten if this restaurant wasn't on top of Turkey, so this is all new revenue.  Of course the City would have to front the land and a TIF would supply the infrastructure funding. We will also assume that the land, as is, provides no benefits to the city or its citizens (no opportunity cost).

So lets find out our return on investment!

- Road: $500k (.5 mile of brand new road (http://capitolfax.com/summary.pdf), done on the cheap side, but with extra site work required. Somehow we spent $250k in tax money on BlueRose, so this is CHEAP)
- Utilities: $100k (best guess from other utility work requests in Tulsa. Water, sewer, power)
- Land value: $400k (40k/acre, 10 acres)  [even if we don't sell the land, we are diverting it from the current purpose. So from the parks perspective, it may as well be a sale. Simon land was ~40k per acre]
- Parking lot near the restaurant is free... just to keep the number even and conservative.

Lets pretend the actual building will be at the owners expense.

So for fun, we have $1mil in cost outlays for the City of Tulsa.  Five year TIF, covering just this restaurant - 4% cost of borrowing [rate has been between 3-4% for a long time], or $40k per year cost. We bring back $100k in sales revenue, for a net "gain" of $60k per year (pretending, again, that all customers would not have spent money but for...). So of course the TIF can't even really pay for itself. But lets run it out on a straight line for simplicity - it breaks even at ~year 15.  Which  happens to be how long an asphalt road should last before a major full-depth refurbishment. (http://www.concocompanies.com/green-building-techniques/concrete-paving/) (realistically, on the terrain at Turkey it would be difficult to get a 15 years out of the road because there would be a limited road bed, but lets assume we hit average)

OK, so after 15 years we redo the road, outlaying another $~300k. Pretending we have no other maintenance costs and that this money is not borrowed funds, we add another 3 years to the project cost.

So, if this magical restaurant is finished in Dewey's second term (2017), the City of Tulsa can expect to see sales tax revenue "growth" of 0.04% in 2035. Add 7 years to get to a 25 year investment horizon, and the City would have gained $700k on an investment of $1mil over 25 years. Or an annual rate of return of about 2.1% The average inflation over the long term in the USA is 3.22%. Since 2000 it is 2.4% (http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/Long_Term_Inflation.asp). SO---- in reality, we expect to lose money on this "investment."

So the City gives up parkland, the citizens lose quality of life, and the tax payers lose money.

It's a win win win!

Nice analysis CF.

If we can’t find a mayoral candidate with better development sensibilities, I might just run as the “Tree-hugginist” mayor Tulsa has ever seen.

Cannon:
I like the way you think, but I think your numbers are way off.  What sort of road are we talking about here?  What type of roadbed is needed? How wide is the right of way?  Do trees and brush need to be cleared?  What sort of drainage is planned?  What's the grade?  Are there switchbacks to manage the % grade?  Are there stormwater drains to prevent erosion?  Where does that stormwater go?  How far is it conveyed?

To put this in perspective, the City just refurbished Jackson Ave over by Tulsa Hills as part of the 3rd Penny Sales Tax improvements.  This is a residential street that's about 1735' long.  (About 1/3 of a mile.) It cost $350,000 to refurbish the street.  The grading had already been done, no land had to be cleared, and, as far as I can tell, the stormwater lines were already present and didn't need to be replaced. No work was done to the intersection. The street is basically flat.  And it still cost about $200/foot.

Building a road through a rugged urban wilderness to serve a single business is madness.  Building a road and a restaurant in an urban wilderness also eliminates the existence of an urban wilderness.

This is so insane, I'm almost wondering if Dooey has something to hide and wants to distract the public with a red herring.  I really can't decide if he's that stupid, or if there's something else going on.

If you want to look at a similar deal with Blue Rose, those numbers are supposed to be available to the public.  Blue Rose pays $1600/month to RPA in rent then 2 to 3% of the annual gross.  I’ve been told you can get the annual gross from the RPA.

Just curious, how well-utilized is the restaurant at Gilcrease?  I wasn’t aware there even was one until I popped off tongue in cheek about having one there.

I've been twice for Sunday brunch many years ago.  Good view.

(http://gilcrease.utulsa.edu/~/media/Gilcrease/Page%20Images/Heros/hero_711x313_restaurant.ashx?w=711&h=313&as=1&bc=ffffff)

I enjoyed it but I never hear anyone say "I ate at Gilcrease."