The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Why is this not illegal and/or being enforced? Other cities have passed laws saying no standing within x feet of an intersection for safety and why can't we? The "will work for food" shift workers are getting to be everywhere, and I was a bit concerned with the woman who had her baby and sound daughter in a pack and play 6 ft from the 91st and memorial intersection yesterday.

Could also get rid of "support my random sports team" people standing in intersections with buckets too.

Just make it illegal to give them money. Problem solved.

I think a bigger problem is the QT panhandlers at several locations around town.
31st and Sheridan is really bad.

I hate panhandlers. HATE. No one has ever gotten themselves out of poverty by begging, it is not a solution to whatever problems the person may have. But panhandling has decreased commercial traffic in areas, caused suburbanites to avoid areas, caused panhandlers to be smushed by traffic,  made people uncomfortable, and pissed me off.

1) QT will give them the boot. Tell the clerks, they relish the opportunity to chase people away but can't unless a customer complains.

2) Tulsa has been discussing am updatedpanhandling ordinance for years, currently "aggressive begging" is a $200 fine.

https://www.municode.com/library/ok/tulsa/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TUCOOR_TIT27PECO_CH14DIPE_S1407AGBEPR

OKC recently passed a more robust ordinance, and will be facing a challenge from the ACLU calling it protected speech (remember, the Supreme Court ruled that money is speech):
http://www.newson6.com/story/30192843/aclu-of-ok-proposed-panhandling-ordinance-is-unconstitutional

3) We've been here before. A quick Google search reveals there is about 3 news story a year on the topic. We've discussed it to.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.0
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/tulsa-officials-looking-to-strengthen-existing-panhandling-ordinance/article_41fa88c0-e4ca-5c08-afbd-2932177e7cf7.html


I, for one, am in favor of doing anything possible to chase the deadbeats away. The shift changes really do make me laugh, but seeing people hand cash to these people make me want to run up and ask if I can have a few bucks too. Hell, I usually see it on my way home from work.

There has to be thousands of beggers around town. Take into account all the intersections you see them at and multiply that by the shift changes, and I'm positive it surpasses the number of homeless.

Irrational anger?  Maybe.

To answer the original question - sitting by the road with some lame sign and passively asking for cash is probably not against any law in Tulsa.

A couple of days ago at Memorial and the Creek Turnpike it was a young couple that looked to be in their early 20s. They were clean and decently dressed and looked in good health. The signs said "anything helps". Helps what? You buy a dime bag? They didn't even try to look needy.

What I'm suggesting is what other cities do which is make it illegal to loiter near an intersection. That skates the ACLU challenge as you're not attacking what they do there, just the fact they are there.

OKC still has as many as Tulsa standing at the 'prime' corners.

$200.00 fine for giving money to a panhandler.

You won't get fine money from the panhandler but the city can squeeze it from the person handing out the dough.

That's what they did in Oregon. Panhandling is actually freedom of speech according to the Oregon State Constitution, so that's hat cities have done is pass an ordinance fining the person giving the money.

http://www.hermiston.or.us/sites/hermiston.or.us/files/File/city-council-agenda-packets/14nov10/11d1-panhandling.pdf (http://www.hermiston.or.us/sites/hermiston.or.us/files/File/city-council-agenda-packets/14nov10/11d1-panhandling.pdf)

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-22-panhandle_N.htm (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-22-panhandle_N.htm)

(http://media.kcby.com/images/Panhandling+in+Coos+Bay+%284%29.jpg)

 

How well does it get enforced?  Sting ops?

Quick!  Send Smoot out there, he'll clean it right up!

He can't be everywhere but he might try.

I don't know about any sting ops, but from what I understand when they put the signs up after plenty of public notice that it was going to be done, and since it falls into the traffic law, you can be cited for it as a primary offense. I've been told that when the put the signs up, people rather quickly quit giving money to the people on the corners. They started with the areas that had the most problems which were the off ramps for I-5, then around the mall area, and it seems to work quite well.

I don't think Smoot could handle it here, most people here use something that he doesn't have, common sense.

Would that ordinance outlaw Smoot's DUI roadblocks?

DUI check points were banned in Oregon in 1987.


http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/02/sobriety_checkpoint_ahead_lets.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/02/sobriety_checkpoint_ahead_lets.html)

Although there is movement to make a change because of legalization of pot in the state, it still requires a change to the state constitution.

http://www.kgw.com/story/news/investigations/2015/02/02/bill-could-allow-sobriety-checkpoints-in-oregon-again/22775143/ (http://www.kgw.com/story/news/investigations/2015/02/02/bill-could-allow-sobriety-checkpoints-in-oregon-again/22775143/)

There actually has to be someone to write the ticket.  We don’t even ticket red light runners as it is now and that’s an increasingly common occurrence.

It'd give people a reason to not do it.  I think some people give money to these jacks because they feel guilty. 

But if they can tell themselves "I can't because it's not legal..."

Drinking and Driving

No seatbelt while driving

Smoking pot

jaywalking

not to mention the bigger stuff that people still do that is illegal.  Having laws that aren't enforced just clutter up the rulebooks.

We do when there is grant money to pay for overtime.

How about we not bother with the law and just put up signs. Kinda like people do with home alarm systems.

Sounds like a plan to me.

13th and Utica on Saturday, a girl standing next to her bicycle with a sign that read: "Just 17 and need help"

She appeared to be partnered with the male sitting at 14th and Utica with his bike hidden behind the traffic light control box and the 3rd person that was hiding up under the overpass with his bike. All seemed very young, clean and decently dressed.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a syndicate pimping these people. 

That wasn't my point.  It gives a person who feels guilty about not helping the panhandler a reason to not help the panhandler.

The signs are already up in Brady, have been since May 2014 http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/anti-panhandling-signs-hung-in-brady-district/article_57bc0b14-e3c9-5c76-a063-fd31f20e2ba6.html

I've watched shift change before where someone new comes up, the panhandler hands over the sign to the new panhandler, and then heads home.

You suppose there’s an extension course for that? 

How to effectively panhandle.  In this course we will discuss:

• Intersection selection
  Use of props including cute puppies and small children
  How to dress to create a pathetic persona
  What to write on your sign
  When is “God Bless You” appropriate
  Tag-teaming with friends
  Panhandler’s Union membership pros & cons
  

What a great idea.
Where to park your bike or car without detection.
What corners are the highest traffic and what time of day for the biggest donations.
Beard or no Beard? (male)
Pregnant female for higher results?

All topics would be discussed. No ideas to small or inappropriate.
Meetings will be held at Mohawk Park. And free busing will be provided by Willie George Ministries.
OK maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.  ::)

I think the concern about the signs put up in the Brady area would make people not want to visit is unfounded. I think it makes it nicer, because if you discourage people from giving them money it tends to push the panhandlers away from that area and visitors might feel less intimidated. I don't think putting up signs at intersections without the possibility of any fine on the people in cars giving money is pointless, because it can be debated that they are impeding the flow of traffic. Iff you are going to do it it has to have some bite to it.

Run with it!

Always interesting watching the vans pick up and drop them off. Definitely not a job I could do, at least when you're a chicken or a lady liberty with a sign you have a wage and are hardly ever holding up traffic.

Also sad when they forget their expensive watch or high dollar shoes, yeah got the "dirty" coat however your $200 brand new shoes and really nice watch tell me you don't need help. Some may very well be panhandlers however more and more seem to be self employed beggars who make way more then far to many honestly employed people. 

No solution to offer just an observation, sad one at that.

They ticket panhandlers for "Pedestrian Soliciting in the Roadway" quite frequently.....

Never seen one ticketed, but I see them sitting at an intersection for 8-12 hours a day.

http://www.mugshotstulsa.com/charge/pedestrian-soliciting-in-road

10 arrests in 2015 is frequent? Pretty sure they arrested more for whaling.

Most were probably arrested for a misdemeanor, spend a few hours in jail, get released as a non-violent offender, get a court date, back out pan handling in a different area, plead no contest using a public defender, get probation and ordered counseling, back out pan handling, until the next cycle is repeated.

MOAR LAAAWWWWZZZZ  THAT'LL FIX IT

Ok....