The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I commuted to work the last five years on the BA, sticking near downtown and midtown area. I recently switched offices and now have a crazy commute (involving my sons's school) that sees Highway 75, a lot of I-44 from the wist side to the east, and sometimes the BA from further east to downtown. Sometimes traffic is horrid and I take 169 to the Creek on around to 75 to get to my sons school. The point is, I'm regularly seeing stretches of highway I only occasional drove before, and in a given week I probably see 90% of the highway inside the City of Tulsa (but for I-244 and north).

My question is: why is the BA from Yale to downtown so crappy?

The road is bad - I've honestly never seen a gravel road in as bad of shape as the BA +/- a mile from the IDL. The south leg of the IDL is similarly terrible. My wife drives a sporty little convertible, we get to test its swerving ability or lose a wheel when we head downtown.

The bridges collapse somewhat regularly. At least once a year part of the decking falls through. "There's a wheel borrow sized hole in the westbound left lane of the BA where it goes over Pittsburgh."  That actually happened in a traffic report, more than once. As I sit in traffic on Harvard I can see light through the road deck in a couple of places. This isn't normal.

The shoulders are never cleaned. Last week traffic was backed up because a green plastic tote fell into the center lane. I go opposite of traffic, I heard it on the radio and then saw it on my way to work the next day... pushed to the shoulder. Last time I drove by, it was still there. Gravel, car parts, trash. The shoulders look awful and are horribly overgrown.

Speaking of overgrown --- the shoulders grow grass. The side of the road is so overgrown branches often hang over the "jersey barriers." It sure looks like hell.

And why are there no sound barriers? The road backs up directly into many backyards. Some apartment complexes use the barriers as the edge of their parking lots. I'm a block off the BA, it doesn't bother me a bit. But it seems strange that so many backyards overlook an overgrown mess and a freeway (maybe they don't want them?).

You go out to I-44 or the Creek and there is 100 yards of mowed grass before the neighborhood starts, then a decorative sound barrier. There are bridges that not only don't collapse, they look nice and might even have artistic features. They have cleaning crews who remove debris from the shoulder and maintenance crews who trim back trees.

I love that the BA was built as much into the city as was possible (instead of the "clear everything" nature of the interstates). I don't mind the rocket on-ramps and unsymmetrical interchanges. I think the railroad down the center is a good use of space.

But I really don't get why the highway is so crappy?

Bad urban design. Aka, double the roads "lane miles" needed per the population, lousy planning of where we live/work/play leading to more driving on the roads, bad zoning which pushes for more sprawl, roads, and more auto usage on them versus promoting transit which would lessen road need/usage/wear and tear, relatively poor populace that is forced to pay for auto's and then doesn't also want to pay for the overabundance of roads caused by the aforementioned.  etc. etc.

It would likely take an insider with the city to really know why, but I have to concur with the description of the roads that CF gave. The repairs/maintenance don't seem to be based on the poverty of an area. Hwy 75 from I-44 to about 41st is awful. BA from Yale to 75 is awful. Downtown south to Yale is also sketchy. I suspect it is an analysis that includes traffic count, weather, federal funding availability, and resource management. IOW, they are likely triaging the process.

In the old days the BA was always re-surfaced when the Mayor was up for re-election.

My first guess would be that ODOT relies heavily on federal money to get anything done about highway maintenence and reconstruction.  They aren't sending any money Tulsa's way that will cramp OKC's growth.  So if it isn't getting the majority of funding from the federal pot, we better fund it via tolls.  Since the BA is neither an interstate or OTA funded, nobody gives a damn that it isn't up to rickshaw grade.  US 169 will probably look the same in 20 years, it just isn't old enough yet to have multiple generations of neglect.

How odd, just south of where it loses shared interstate signage with 244.

As far as the debris removal and lack of landscaping, I wonder if ODOT and the city of Tulsa have a difference of opinion as to where the responsibility lies.

Neglect.

That's one of those questions like, "why was the Civic Center maintenance neglected for as long as it was..."?

One part is 1962 design/engineering/construction for 1958 traffic load and patterns.  And no real attention, repair or upgrades in the intervening years.  Look how bad I-44 was for how long and add 15 - 20 years to it and you have the coming history of the BA - IF it gets the attention that soon!!

I mentioned somewhere here in back issues that we could at least add some of the wall treatments like are done on the other expressways/turnpikes.  Would keep the noise out of neighborhoods and provide some small cosmetic value.  Still gotta deal with the fundamental failure of ODOT, City of Tulsa, and Fed DOT to get anything going here on that road.  (All 3 are responsible in my mind.)

Since I-44 was just upgraded to adequate for 1989 traffic flows, and given the fact that there would be so much hue and cry trying to acquire width for the BA to bring it up to 1989 needs, I suspect that what will happen is similar to what Memphis did with I-40 through town - abandon it and redefine the routing of highway 51 to be somewhere else, like I-244.  People can get into downtown just as easily on 244 as the BA....  Start at Sheridan and work back west to downtown....parks, canals, light rail....


Note;  only part of that last paragraph was 'tongue in cheek'... sadly.

The BA is US 64 Oklahoma 51 but within the City limits of Tulsa.  I assume there is some split in responsibility, let alone upgrade and planning. But I truly don't know who is even supposed to do what.

It would be up to property owners to keep their kudzu from growing through and over the fences which line the BA in the area you are talking about.  I That’s one appearance issue.  As far as the pavement looking like main street in downtown Beirut, it’s misplaced maintenance priorities.  If you notice, there are sections of the south leg of the IDL where they had cut out whole sections of concrete and filled back in with concrete, somewhat of a patchwork effort but smoother than shovel patch.  I wonder if that is any more expensive in the long run than the ol’ shovel patch that seems to be done every time the seasons change.

Retaining walls down both sides and maybe no using low-grade asphalt would be huge helps.

When they did the last round of asphalt they did some weird work around three storm drains in the left lane westbound near harvard. The pavement near the drains is about an inch lower so you drop down then right back up which is a bit drastic at 60mph.

You mean the hump-downs going eastbound?

You should see what it does at 120 MPH.  :o

Yeah, eastbound.

Your bike goes that fast?

The westbound drainage grates are a problem, too - that's what happens when you don't rip-and-replace the roadway, you just pour new stuff over it. And I'd say it's more like a 2-3" difference.

Sure, when I’m bumper surfing off a crotch rocket!

On a serious note, The BA from downtown through the curve at Sheridan seems to be a favorite of the crotch rocket crowd on weekend nights.  Scary thought what that could do to one of them...and probably already has.  I know they had a fatality at roughly Hudson a month or so back from a rider hitting the inside retaining wall.

They like to do wheelies between Harvard and Lewis on the BA at night...in the fast lane. Entertaining but pretty foolhardy.

Part of the damage being done to our streets and highways stems from our own success at rehabbing the city. I have never seen so many dump trucks laden with giant chunks of concrete and demolition debris. They are mostly contractors paid by the trip so they drive aggressively too. Unfortunately they are stressing the poorly patched roads. Add to that the increased tanker truck traffic due to low fuel prices and you have a lot of road damage.

I can't find the article but I thought I read recently that the BA from Lewis to downtown is on the list to be taken down to grade and completely rebuilt.  Gonna be a headache but needed.

http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/new-construction-start-4-tulsa-highways/nmQQH/
Posted: 1:15 p.m. Thursday, May 28, 2015

LOL

I'm Jack's Complete Lack Of Surprise

Seems like the World had a story recently that said the delay in working on the SE leg of the IDL and the BA was due to the I44 work out by Catoosa being more involved than previously thought.  At least, that was the explanation ODOT offered.

Wish we could eventually do what LandArchPoke proposed and take out the east leg of the IDL eliminating the huge interchange with the BA.  Also rebuilding the entire highway below grade from Peoria to Yale and relocating the rail line to the perimeter similar to what Denver did when they rebuilt I-25.  You add more workable stations for future commuter rail and the BA isn't such a barrier between midtown neighborhoods. 

Returning from lunch this afternoon, I observed a crew doing a crude patch job on the WB 15th St. Bridge.  Certainly not improving the overall quality of that stretch of road.

They won't be rebuilding any of the BA in terms of changing whether it's at grade, above grade, or below grade. What they're going to do to these sections of the IDL is what they did to the other two, simply ripping up the current pavement and rebuilding it. So it will look and feel the same, just brand new pavement.


This is correct. They have delayed doing a temporary resurfacing of the BA. They plan to put a new layer on top of what is there - similar to what was just done on Highway 75 southbound between the River and the I-244 split. This is going to cost about $1 million. They will be coming back in in 2017-2018 to start tearing up the BA (south leg) and the east leg (75) through about 2022 to rebuild the entire road beds and every bridge for a total of over $80 million. 

I hope they are planning to use concrete. The road simply has too much traffic for asphalt to last.

The temporary repaving that will be occurring this year will be asphalt. However, that is a valid question in terms of what do they plan to use during the reconstruction that is more permanent in the coming years. I would hope the plan is to use concrete, but you never know.

My guess is they will use papier mache.

I guess the ultimate answer to the question originally posed is, "because we are happy to build roads, but will fight to the death any attempt to adequately maintain them".

I drive this every day and the BA between Lewis and downtown is the worst stretch of road I’ve driven on since I lived in Washington DC during the Marion Barry era.  This road is simply worn out.  While it’s been bad for a while, but this past winter it simply began crumbling with giant pot holes routinely opening up.  After a week or so, some would get filled with asphalt (into a concrete road, so it was guaranteed not to last very long).  It was so strange to me why some holes would get patched while other holes nearby would not.  Then one day I saw how they were patching the holes.  A truck with asphalt was parked on the shoulder and two workers would wait with shovels full of hot asphalt.  When a short break in traffic came, they would dart out into the road and quickly throw a shovel full in a hole and then run back to the shoulder to repeat this feat of daring.  I’m guessing that is not an OSHA approved method of road work, not to mention it defies all common sense and desire to live a long healthy life.  I assume the workers simply didn’t have the nerve to fill all the holes on any given day and would give up after filling the biggest holes. 

Not as long as we have as much oil industry here.  We will always 'choose' oily rock over doing it correctly.

Frankly I really don't care. Let it crumble. I don't know why anyone else would care either. Get people off the highways, slow people down on the roadways, lets create good infill development, if that causes congestion, alleviate it by getting good transit going. Lets start bending the curve away from a sprawling auto centric culture to a transit/pedestrian friendly one.

I'm with Artist on this one.  Let it get so bad people stop using it.

I can remember when my Dad had to travel from north Harvard, about Jasper, to downtown.  Took the trolley several days each week.  We would go downtown on the trolley, too.  I bet if ya dig up the grass median, the tracks or at least the rail bed would still be there.

Then to 36th and Harvard (out in the country - very rural) - driving downtown - still no BA.  Took much longer.  Then out to the suburbs near 31st and Yale - still before BA.  Onerous drive.  Believe it or not, the BA cut his drive time quite a bit.  Even up until he retired. 

BUT if the trolley would have been available, he would have taken it and it would have been much more convenient for him and a lot of people!!  Thanks, GM for shutting down trolleys and viable bus systems for us nationwide....!

Ya....That'll work.....!!!

If it gets so bad that I can't get to downtown in under 20-30mins, I'll stop going. So will everyone else from South Tulsa. I'm totally for the push for urbanism and less car-centric design, but there will always be a need for highways no matter what.

I hope they use some decent concrete, not the crap they usually use.

Unless/until there is a viable transit system, I think a lot of folks would care.  Where do you think all those cars would go and what would be the effect on those roads?  I've tried to get home from Utica Square and the 31st & Harvard area by not using the BA a few times went the BA was already stopped up.  The alternates are already not pretty.  Think of all the extra car exhaust in the summer and the local ozone levels.  Good transit would help reduce the jam but I believe "alleviate" is bit too strong and wishful thinking.  Philadelphia, PA area has had useful transit for decades yet the roads are still packed.  Remember too that transit made the suburbs possible before the automobile became so affordable to the masses.

I think that is the plan.  Get everyone to give up the suburbs and pack into apartments downtown.

Oh, ya got me.  Hope you all don't find out I am actually part of that UN plot to take over the world by having everyone living in dense urban cities so we can control you all better.  Such a bother when our black helicopters have to cover such huge amounts of sprawl.  Ooops.  :P 

 ;D

DC is similar.  Good transit that lots of people use, but rush hour is still a parking lot.

Hey, it worked for me.  I got tired of the 20+ minute drive every day to/from Owasso over terrible roads, and we moved our family to midtown.  I agree that getting rid of the BA isn't really an option, but I'm generally with the Artist.  Combine a more attractive downtown/midtown (in all that entails) with more difficulty and time in making the trip from the 'burbs, and  there will be a segment of the population that makes the move.

I live in S Tulsa.  I thought my commute would be Hell when Riverside closed but I get DT in 20 minutes using Creek and 75 in the AM and I get home in about 30 using Lewis.

Why would you get on the BA living in South Tulsa?

I consider most of midtown to actually be suburbs.  Close in suburbs but suburbs none the less.  I agree that a terrible commute will make more people want to live in closer, right up until the price of housing thinks it's California.

Those of us who live a bit farther east of you hop on 169 to the BA to go downtown. Same 20 minutes except for all the traffic lights on Memorial.