The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Maybe this should go in PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning?


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/tulsa-transit-to-unveil-new-bus-service-for-downtown-bar/article_c6e0b8d8-ab13-589f-a936-2cb8bdacfe75.html


Sad to see the old timey trolley go for just another city bus, even if it has a different paint scheme. I feel like that's not the way you're going to increase ridership. Will be interested to see the route.

Discuss.

I don't get the need for a bus. I have rarely if ever seen one of the trolley's full of passengers so I can't imagine that a larger vehicle is required. Even during Garthstravaganza I don't remember seeing the trolley full and my wife and I were downtown for 3 of those concerts. Of course we tend to walk everywhere so maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention.

I would also think the trolley is cheaper to operate than a bus. This just seems like a good idea implemented poorly.

I agree. I'm guessing it wasn't financially feasible for them anymore and the city stepped up to offer an alternate subsidized transportation ($.25/ride is cheap). Good that something will still be going but the trolley was so much nicer both for the atmosphere and the novelty. I enjoyed having it as an option and rode it on several occasions. I hope they bring it back eventually.

Channel 6 ran a story in which they stated the bus would come by every 20 minutes, which cuts the current time in half (I believe).   That’s a start, although I think they need to reduce that to every 10 minutes to really be successful.  In 20 minutes you can nearly walk from one end of downtown to the other.

I don’t get why some are so in love with last century technology like a “trolley” - or worse, a fake trolley.  It is small, has uncomfortable seats and poor entrance/exit access.
 
Hopefully this will help build momentum towards ever better loop service.  A well-chosen route with enough buses to keep wait times short (10 minutes or less) could be a real draw and help avoid building more parking in The Brady/Blue Dome areas.

I personally wouldn’t see myself using the bus unless it was pouring down rain.

I guess I'm the only one whose never had a problem bar hopping or going to a ballgame or concert from opposite ends of downtown.  I've had drinks at McNellies or Fassler then walked to the BOK Center.  I've pubcrawled on foot from Hodge's Bend to Soundpony.  Our downtown isn't that big.  You can walk pretty much anywhere.  On an icy night maybe uber it if necessary or drink closer to your destination.  There's still enough parking on the northern end that you don't need to park at TCC to enjoy Blue Dome or Brady.  You can get anywhere on foot in about 5 minutes from the Central Parking garage which last I check still charges only $2 on regular nights and $5 for special events.  I always figured that this was why the trolley was lightly used.

I agree...  The few times I have been drinking downtown just walking was the preferred method.   Nothing is particularly far.

Plus with my luck it would have been some sort of crosstown route I stumbled onto.


I wonder if service was cancelled due to disinterest from the downtown businesses paying for it.

That is exactly why we tend to walk everywhere. We normally stay at either the Hyatt of the Fairfield and just walk to wherever. We did try to hop on the trolley once outside The Tavern as it was starting to rain, but after waiting for almost 30 minutes we said to heck with it and just walked back to the Hyatt in the rain.

For the same reason we prefer Art Deco and Midcentury over plain newer corporate structures like One Place. For the same reason we pay significantly more to eat or drink at places like Valkyrie or the Vault. A trolley adds to the atmosphere of a quaint friendly little downtown and is inviting to get in as opposed to a big ugly city bus with its cold lighting which many people will not get on just for being a city bus.

Walking around downtown is nice and easy but when you're going with a group or meeting up, typically it's not a great option. We will probably just stick to uber and might try the bus if it's convenient.

Every 20 minutes - FAIL
Starts at 5pm - FAIL

We obviously disagree on the trolley.  Old buildings/structures = interesting, charming and historical.  Old forms of transportation = old and outdated.  Steam trains are a novel bit of fun for a short excursion in a picturesque area, but I wouldn’t want to take one to work every day. I rode the cable car in San Francisco with other tourists - once.  The locals ride the bus.  I will withhold judgment until I see the unveiling of the new bus(s) to be used, but I suspect they will be much improved over the cramped uncomfortable fake trolley/bus being replaced.

I also agree this is still not frequent enough or enough days/hours of operation.  Hopefully, this is a toe in the water for the city that will expand if people use it (or it gets Vision extension money).  At least the city is stepping in to pay where before the trolley was funded exclusively by the downtown businesses.  That in itself is a step in the right direction.

The one thing that might help is the app where you can track it like uber so there'll be no standing around waiting for it.

We business owners are still going to be chipping in to pay for this new "trolley bus"  which will actually be cheaper to run than the one we have now.  If we continue to support it, the city will add a second bus to make shorter wait times.

This is a way to get something started and a way to help ameliorate the "aint enough parking downtown" complaints.  It's so interesting on here to hear some argue that it is good for this and that development to have parking then hear people complain about how nobody will use the bus cause its so easy to walk from one end of downtown to the next.  Nobody needs to walk downtown because there is so much parking.  Every development needs plenty of parking because nobody will walk and there is no transit.  You try to put in transit to lessen the need for every development to have so much parking, but then some argue there is not enough development downtown to support transit. Well, if you wait till there are enough people/developments before you put in the transit, those developments will put in lots of parking because there is no transit and then you will end up with no need for transit because nobody will be walking they will all just park where they want to go.  But if you put in the transit now, before the parking is too tight, people will complain that the trolleys are empty.  etc. etc. Oh, well.  

Again, this is a start. Nothing is going to be perfect at this stage of the game.  But it shows at least a starting commitment to "bend the curve" towards getting people used to parking in perhaps areas away from where they will eventually go, and to get them used to using transit.

We are going to have this similar situation when the BRT starts as well.  Low ridership, people still wanting to build parking.  

Apparently the trolley business wants everyone to know this wasn't their choice and that their contract was abruptly canceled.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/bus-route-taking-place-of-trolley-service-in-downtown-tulsa

It is an odd puzzle - the need for a bus.  I have spent some time in Milwaukee and the mindset is very different there.  Even my mindset was different while there.  Theirs is a core downtown space very similar in size to Tulsa - I am using 1 mile by 1 mile as the measure to encompass most of what might be considered core downtown 'stuff'.  Tulsa has lower concentration of everything, especially as move south of about 6th street here.

There are a lot of bicycles, even in the winter if the snow situation isn't too bad.  But everybody walks!  Everybody!  Nobody even considers car, bus, or cab just to go 6 or 8 blocks or more (like going to lunch, etc).  Winter can be a little ragged, with winds between the buildings that I believe are even worse than here, but that doesn't stop the walking.  Evenings, we would usually walk from hotels west of river (near the mall) to the restaurants near the Public Market.  You can tell the tourists and the out of towners by the cars they drive.  Parking is available, but very 'tight' compared to Tulsa, with a lot of it around the interstate at the river - you drive into town, park, then don't move the car until ready to leave for the day.

Don't know why, but while there, you just don't even consider anything but walking, unless it is a blizzard.  Then you mostly stay put.  Downtown here for some reason, walking seems like it's more 'difficult'....even though I walk all the time everywhere else I stop....

I was up there this past December and my experience is the same as yours. One night it was snowing and cold, cold, cold but that didn't stop anyone from being out walking around and looking at the Christmas light displays downtown. My group was right there with all the locals, I'm sure we were colder than they were but we enjoyed ourselves and never even thought about taking a bus/cab anywhere. We were out enjoying the night and walking just seemed the best way to get here/there and enjoy ourselves.

About the bus v trolley debate here. I was talking this morning with someone who comes into town from Denver to work with one of my groups for a couple of weeks every six months and she made a comment that I think nailed my feelings on this as well. What she said was "Why get rid of the trolleys and go to a big, ugly bus? The trolley is so much more charming and gives you a different feel when you see it driving around your downtown or are riding on it. I ride it whenever I'm here and love it. A bus is just a bus and will be a big, ugly thing that may move more people at once, but I have never seen the trolley be full so I doubt the extra capacity is really needed. A bus just doesn't have near the charm or uniqueness that the trolleys do and I think whoever made this decision made a bad one."

That shouldn't be too hard, because the Tulsa Transit Authority already has an app that tracks and maps all the busses in town in real time. It actually works surprisingly well. 

I really like the bus loop idea, I just feel that the city needs to think a little bigger... A downtown-pearl district - cherry street - brookside - 18th and boston - back to downtown loop would be well utilized I think.

I think they tried that a while back and it never really caught on.  I think wait time was a problem and downtown options were still pretty limited.  My guess is that once people start living downtown and options continue to increase, they can get some traction.  I live near Cherry Street and would walk to catch a bus downtown for dinner or a baseball or soccer game or concert if it was running.

Oh did they? I guess I missed that... Was it a Tulsa Transit, or a private trolley thing?

I remember riding the old urban trolley from cherry st to downtown around 2008.

Why do people like classic cars so much? They're old and outdated!

The trolley bus isn't meant to be an every day form of transportation. It is adds charm and is a whimsical thing people do when they're out enjoying downtown on a weekend. I also hope the new bus is nice and unique. They make it out to be.

As a note, the news article said the old urban trolley was also funded by Tulsa Transit.

I think we read different articles....

The trolley, owned and operated by Old Urban Trolley Inc., will discontinue its downtown route at the end of this month. The trolley route through downtown was sponsored by downtown businesses and organizations at no cost to the city.

Nope - you weren't colder - they were just as cold!  They complain in a more 'stoic' fashion, but they put up with it because of the quality of life issues the state has.  Ice fishing, snowmobiles, skating, etc...all things ice-sport related.  In spite of the aberrant nature of their governor - for some reason they have gotten the idea in the last few years that the Mary Failin' way of life is somehow desirable.

The only place I wasn't willing to walk to was the Harley museum.  I don't think it was that much further than other places I was walking to...it was just a much more indirect route.  Was on Plankinton quite a bit and 4 blocks south puts you right at the east side of museum.  But then ya gotta get across the river...another mile or so round about.  I guess I coulda walked across the ice, but don't trust river ice.  They need another bridge - at least a walking bridge.

And Summerfest up there is said to be amazing!  The Rolling Stones played the night before official start this year.  We were in the area (Janesville) just before 4th of July and didn't make it into town, but the whole area is way cool !!

Yes we did. The KJRH article linked above said:

I'll agree that the vehicle being used until Tuesday has some quaintness but it too is really just a bus.

Long live steel wheels, rails and overhead electric power..... real trolleys.

Edit: add links below
http://www.neworleansonline.com/tools/transportation/gettingaround/streetcars.html

http://www.streetcar.org/rider-information-map-2/

http://www.littlerock.com/things-to-do/detail/river-rail-electric-street-car-trolley2

http://www.phillytrolley.org

http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/vintagetrolley.htm

I was walking across a railroad track in the old Stapleton Airport area the other night and making sure I didn’t hit that dreaded third rail when I realized they had power overhead.  I’ve not looked into their light rail system, but guessing there must be a connector from downtown Denver to KDEN.

I've heard something along that line.  I didn't feel the need to post every link possible.  You're right to stay away from the 3rd rail.  It's a killer, literally.

So who do we trust?    The original Tulsa world article or the KJRH "Problem Solvers"?

Because really, facts don't get much different than that.

Thats interesting.  I wonder if their downtown is more "walkable" or stayed more walkable/pedestrian lively and didn't empty out as much as ours did?    Also, perhaps it could just be an attitude that a few adopted and kept and then grew over time.  I think we can create that here if a few people decide to. Once that idea gets started and people see it and others follow, it would take on a life of its own. 

Not yet, it opens in April 2016.  They are saying 38 min from the airport terminal to downtown Union Station with 6 stops in between, running $10/ticket one-way.  The cost for the 23 mile line is $1.1 billion.

TIA has an existing rail line next to it that runs 7 miles directly into downtown.  Not sure how many, if any, stops would be between the two but running a similar train as Denver could get you there in 10 min. with the only new track being built from the tracks toward the terminal (about a 1/4 mile).  Maybe we could build a new hotel over ours too.  :)

I think BNSF will not be to interested in sharing that route with a commuter train running both directions. I lived at Pine & Memorial for seven years and it averaged about one inbound or outbound every three hours.

Doesn't feel any more 'walkable' - similar walking.  The downtown has been rejuvenated in recent decades, as has ours.  They are quite a bit bigger metro area (double-ish), so have more resources, but that is a proportional thing.  They started back from the urban renewal debacle sooner than we.  The city/state has not been afraid or reluctant to fund things that are good for the entire population rather than just the select few.  Until recent Scott Walker years, where they have slid quite a bit relative to their neighbors (Minnesota specifically).

Definitely an attitude that has evolved.  Not sure whether intentional or incidental.  I have one of those 'gut feeling' things about how they achieve at least some of this.  Parking.  Repetitive moment;  They have a lot of parking scattered around town.  It is relatively expensive, and a lot of it is concentrated towards the south around the interstate.  There is a surprising amount of parking under I-794, east of the river - thousands of spaces.

When you park for the day there is enough parking pressure that there is a lot of reluctance to try to go anywhere by car during the day - no in and out allowed.   The mindset has been programmed in by the incentives provided that one just walks wherever you want to go - just like you speculate about - becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It is, "Once I find a spot, I'm not moving and taking a chance on losing it..."    And it is usually easier/closer/faster just to walk.

And that is also kind of odd, 'cause when we have had to leave for a while, it was never too hard to find a place again, sometimes within feet of where we were.  Just cost the same price again....   Weekly and monthly parkers don't have the cost issues...just the hassle of finding a place nearby.   Its' still just easier to walk...


Anecdote moment;  While walking around one day, found an obviously old human worked stone in the sidewalk with a marker/plaque.  During some renovation 20 years ago or so, this was dug up from about 6 feet deep.  It was one of the original sidewalk stones from about 1800 or so... can't remember exact date.  Mindset to use that again as part of the new sidewalk is different.  We would probably be more likely to haul it to a landfill.   They also mark sidewalks with a date plaque on when it was renovated/rebuilt.  Some back to the 70's IIRC.

That hand-worked stone almost certainly would have been hauled away in Tulsa.

Recently, the City spent millions of dollars to re-pave some street and sidewalks in my neighborhood (near 16th & Carson).  Some of the old sidewalks were in good condition, and the concrete was stamped with "E.W. POTEE CONTRACTOR" with the date "1912" handwritten within the impression.  I specifically asked the City that the stamps be saved, but they weren't.   

Great idea.

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/night-life-bus-route-announced-tulsa#stream/0

 Ok, I tried to use the trip planner like I might suggest a customer do at my shop if they were asking how to get to say the Brady Theater.  I typed in 6th Boston Tulsa and used the Brady Theater as a "landmark" destination and it showed that I had to apparently use several bus routes and took you all the way to Pine and Peoria before looping back into downtown and then the Brady Theater.

Is there a map of just the downtown bus route on the Transit website anywhere?   I would like to know where the stop is thats by my store downtown and where the other stops are as well and be able to show that to visitors and customers.

Good enough for government work...

Tulsa Transit unveiled their new party bus today, complete with custom underbody and interior lighting and a UFO picture on the side.

Originally the "Trolley" was initiated and fully funded by local businesses.

Agree with sgrizzle, this thing needs to run 6AM to 2AM and run every 10 minutes or better during peak hours to build ridership.

Or as my wife said "It's looks like someone stumbled out of the Studio 54 bathroom in 1978 and threw up all over that bus."

Contrary to what a lot of people here seem to think, the trolley was not 100% funded by local businesses. I think it was something like ~70% local business/private donaters funded though.

I figured that if it ever proved itself that MTTA would dispose of it one way or another. It seems most entrepreneurs have a short business lifespan.

That must explain why it always stopped at the Guthrie Green.

Here it is:
(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-0/p552x414/11953015_10153509971982435_5772929256243087822_n.jpg?oh=b5f28d88dc6b34a685ebbf7fbdb3e19d&oe=565D32DC)

More photos:
https://www.facebook.com/TulsaTransit/posts/10153509977012435 (https://www.facebook.com/TulsaTransit/posts/10153509977012435)

Reminds me of the guitarship on Boston’s first album cover.  That fact alone makes me want to Hitch a Ride on this thing.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wSXLMNFyL.jpg)

The new bus is also public/private

It's the Mullet of transportation.

(https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11949449_10153512471822435_3937429999019553040_n.jpg?oh=deca55ada64b45af35d3a8b60f958e61&oe=5671C28E)

Sheriff Glanz needs something spiffy like that to drag the bodies of all his minions he’s tossed.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zfwz7iWHGUA/VYKdSwSZnmI/AAAAAAAAy5Q/CH3b8STxeiQ/s1600/BUS-MINIONS-2.jpg)

Your Google Fu is mighty, swake!

I just pissed myself while simultaneously spitting coffee all over my computer screen.

Now THAT is a Glanz bus!!!


I was thinking about a kind of psychedelic theme for my bus, but that one is very tempting!!