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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 25, 2015, 08:23:49 am



Title: Iron Gate
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 25, 2015, 08:23:49 am
This is going to get brought up on here sooner than later. Might as well start the topic now.

One thing I was surprised to learn: Everyone's favorite "developer" is involved in this.


Quote
Stockholm owned the property on which the old furniture and lumber company occupied, but sold it to Michael Sager.

Sager, who sits on the Downtown Coordinating Council, is best known for his company Blue Dome Properties LLC, which has invested heavily in downtown. He purchased the proposed soup kitchen site from Stockholm through a different company, Bricks and Mortar LLC.

He defended the Iron Gate move Monday, saying the new building would be a positive for the neighborhood.

“I think it is a fabulous use of the property.” he said. “The architecture, the investment. … I think it is fabulous.”

He called those who would use the city’s most vulnerable population to spread fear “terribly petty.”

“I think there is plenty of crime that is not attributable to the homeless and the people in need,” Sager said.

https://www.readfrontier.com/future-of-iron-gate-soup-kitchen-in-hands-of-board-of-adjustment/


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: PonderInc on August 25, 2015, 08:32:09 am
Anyone have site plans / renderings for this? I've heard some of the opponents but haven't seen the actual plan.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 25, 2015, 08:37:45 am
Anyone have site plans / renderings for this? I've heard some of the opponents but haven't seen the actual plan.

There were some on a Tulsa Now blog article by Carlos but that seems to have been deleted. here's the best I can find. https://www.facebook.com/tulsa.pearldistrict/posts/961573857239890


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DolfanBob on August 25, 2015, 09:16:47 am
Was that the old Reeves TV store?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 25, 2015, 09:21:32 am
Was that the old Reeves TV store?

News keeps saying an old furniture and wood store


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AngieB on August 25, 2015, 09:52:20 am
Was that the old Reeves TV store?

That location used to be Sandco Manufacturing...up until about 1996, I think. They made products for the graphics and printing industry. I did some design work for them in trade for a pretty nice light table back in the day...


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 25, 2015, 01:57:24 pm
So the guy that wants to sell them the building thinks it is a great idea?  Gee, tell me more.  Hey, how about this. Sager can float the loan to Iron Gate with a repayment plan when construction is finished. Iron Gate can pay itself a management fee from that money and not finish the project for more than a decade.

My attitude on this project is simple:

99% chance it hinders development of the area.

Sorry, it's a fact that people don't want to build nice things near homeless shelters, jails, or soup kitchens. You'll note the ring immediately around David L. Moss and the Day Shelter has not even thought about starting to develop - even though the warehouses between there and the BOK Center (Sheriff's office) could make a really cool neighborhood. Nope. Abandoned cars. Junk lots. And empty buildings.

Iron Gate serves a need, and many of their patrons are just down on their luck "poor" people. But some are mentally ill. Chronically homeless. Or flat out sketchy. They all might be perfectly nice, but I don't really want to hang out with sketchy people and I wouldn't want my wife or son to walk by a size-able group of unknown shady looking people. It's human nature - we avoid people who don't fit our norms. Hundreds of people a day waiting around Iron Gate for a free meal, many of whom fit that description.

Yes, that makes me somewhere down the scale from Mother Teresa. But I'm honest. I'm not saying the people are a crime waive, or that they are going to eat my baby... perception is all that matters. And the perception is that they make people uncomfortable (myself included, got a dollar?). I hang out with plenty of sketchy people, after I got to the know them. The neighbors here won't have a chance to regularly get to know the revolving cast that frequents Iron Gate. How many volunteers at Iron Gate would want to live next door?

If you had the choice to buy a newly renovated house. Each are 3 bedroom, 2 bath, ~1600 square feet - nicely remodeled, a big front porch and a fenced in backyard. House 1 is a few blocks away from Iron Gate, house 2 is directly across the street. How much would you pay for each?  House 1: $150k?  House 2: $125k? $100k? I'd certainly be wiling to pay an extra $25k to not have a large group of "down on their luck" people milling about daily. Maybe more considering the next guy I try to sell it to might put a steeper discount on it. How about rental rates?

How about a business. You want to buy an old building and fix it up to be a law office, a restaurant, or an interior design studio. Maybe a small nick-nack shop. How likely are you to drop your life savings if the building you are considering is next to Iron Gate? How many customers will come back in the hours that people are milling about waiting for their meal?

Again, I know this isn't PC. But if I owned property and Iron Gate was going in next door - I'd try to unload the property as soon as I could. Hoping that I can take a small loss now opposed to a larger loss when the potential buyer sees hundreds of people outside waiting around. And if I feel that way, I have to be sympathetic to everyone else nearby.

Why does Iron Gate want to move to an area that is supposedly up-and-coming? Location Location Location. But this location doesn't really benefit Iron Gate, so far as I can tell. Some of their client base drives - and they need a special deal with UP to get the parking they need at this location. Some of their client base walks, and they are moving further away.

COUNTER PROPOSAL: why not move Iron Gate to the section of downtown already devoted to the down-on-their luck? The aforementioned warehouse district is under utilized and has low interest from developers. It is more convenient for the homeless population, should be cheaper land, and offers plenty of areas to park. Concentrate services t make it easier on everyone and, yes, to concentrate the objections (argue all you want, sketchy people cause objections for the purposes of development and perception. Doesn't mean they are bad people... and yes, the problem is with the beholder. But lets face reality.)

#Iknowimahorribleperson


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AngieB on August 25, 2015, 02:08:14 pm
So the guy that wants to sell them the building thinks it is a great idea?  Gee, tell me more.  Hey, how about this. Sager can float the loan to Iron Gate with a repayment plan when construction is finished. Iron Gate can pay itself a management fee from that money and not finish the project for more than a decade.

My attitude on this project is simple:

99% chance it hinders development of the area.
<snip>
#Iknowimahorribleperson

I haven't put as much thought into it as you have, but I find myself agreeing with you! Imagine that!  :o

I guess #itooamahorribleperson


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on August 25, 2015, 02:08:48 pm

COUNTER PROPOSAL: why not move Iron Gate to the section of downtown already devoted to the down-on-their luck? The aforementioned warehouse district is under utilized and has low interest from developers. It is more convenient for the homeless population, should be cheaper land, and offers plenty of areas to park. Concentrate services t make it easier on everyone and, yes, to concentrate the objections (argue all you want, sketchy people cause objections for the purposes of development and perception. Doesn't mean they are bad people... and yes, the problem is with the beholder. But lets face reality.)

#Iknowimahorribleperson

John 3:16 and the Day Center are both in this area.  Seems to make sense to keep it closer rather than further away from other entities which serve the homeless and down on their luck.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on August 25, 2015, 02:22:09 pm
I agree.

We have three “clusters” of services for the poor already. Pine and Cincinnati, Peoria and Utica and by David Moss. Placing Iron Gate with transit at any one of them makes a lot more sense than in an up and coming area trying to rise out of poverty.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on August 25, 2015, 02:58:34 pm
REI....!!!.....Rabble Rabble....!!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on August 25, 2015, 03:00:01 pm
I haven't put as much thought into it as you have, but I find myself agreeing with you! Imagine that!  :o

I guess #itooamahorribleperson

I always found it amazing that at one time Trinty had both Iron Gate and a day care operating in the same building - until they shut down the day care a few years ago.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on August 25, 2015, 03:35:42 pm
I always found it amazing that at one time Trinty had both Iron Gate and a day care operating in the same building - until they shut down the day care a few years ago.

I used to park next to Iron Gate in the old and long gone Tulsa Auto Hotel and I walked passed the waiting crowd every morning. I remember all the Beat-up cars idling on the street, people sleeping off something in all the doorways around the church but worst of all by far  were all the mentally ill. It's a complete failure of our society that these people are on the street and having to eat at soup kitchens but they are and many of them frequent Iron Gate.

People that mutter to themselves and shake sitting the sidewalk, people walking up and down the street screaming at nothing. Ugly arguments between the mentally ill that barely had English words. More than one seemed like they could be violent at any time. It's sad that these people are on the street uncared for and unmedicated, but it's a fact that they are and it makes anywhere that Iron gate is undesirable for anything else.

Put in a location where other needed services are available so that these people can get help without walking all over the city.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Laramie on August 25, 2015, 08:35:49 pm
Iron Gate?

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/8655873_G.jpg)
Saw this posted on the Yahoo site today (News 6): http://www.newson6.com/story/29879032/peal-district-community-blindsided-by-charitys-relocation-proposal (http://www.newson6.com/story/29879032/peal-district-community-blindsided-by-charitys-relocation-proposal)



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on August 26, 2015, 08:38:03 am
Anyone here actually walk the streets and businesses at third and Peoria? It isn't the Pearl you're imagining.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on August 26, 2015, 08:44:03 am
Anyone here actually walk the streets and businesses at third and Peoria? It isn't the Pearl you're imagining.

Isn't that the point of the concern - the risk that locating Iron Gate here will ensure that the area stays in its current condition rather than improving along with the southern section.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on August 26, 2015, 08:55:13 am
Isn't that the point of the concern - the risk that locating Iron Gate here will ensure that the area stays in its current condition rather than improving along with the southern section.
Fair enough but the area has little in common with sixth and Peoria and the Kendall area. It sits next to the tracks and across from a machine shop and tons of commercial industrial within a half mile.
Converting it to gentrified hoods will be more difficult because of that. The same arguments were made by White City residents when a transitional home was proposed and they were unfounded. Also the current location hasn't diminished downtown development but moving it to the Moss ghetto likely impedes improvement nearby.
This isn't a terrible location to me.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on August 26, 2015, 09:34:51 am
Fair enough but the area has little in common with sixth and Peoria and the Kendall area. It sits next to the tracks and across from a machine shop and tons of commercial industrial within a half mile.
Converting it to gentrified hoods will be more difficult because of that. The same arguments were made by White City residents when a transitional home was proposed and they were unfounded. Also the current location hasn't diminished downtown development but moving it to the Moss ghetto likely impedes improvement nearby.
This isn't a terrible location to me.

It's three blocks to 6th and Peoria.

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on August 26, 2015, 09:41:30 am
It's three blocks to 6th and Peoria.

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.
Like said. Walk that three blocks I all directions. These aren't empty commercial bldngs.
Blaming poor, addicted and mentally unstable is easy to do and like Cannon says hard on the conscience. In this case adding to the density of those groups by locating them across from the dairy is more damaging than near 244 and Peoria. Btw I am no fan of Sager or the machine shop but I am of Iron Gate.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on August 26, 2015, 09:51:56 am
Please tell me which property you'd like them to buy that is near the existing "social services corridor" in the NW corner of the IDL.

It doesn't mater where they go, it's going to be a fight.

Aquaman makes a great point that this is not in the "heart of the Pearl" but rather on the fringe in an area that is heavily industrial.  According to the measurement tool on Google Maps the Day Center is approx. 1,200 ft from The Tavern.  Iron Gate will be approx. 1,700 ft from The Phoenix.  Yet, the Brady District seems to be doing just fine.

Also, don't forget this is the same neighborhood group that strongly opposed a new QT at 11th & Utica.  So, maybe we should rename The Pearl, The NIMBY District.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on August 26, 2015, 09:58:29 am
I’m not anti-Iron Gate but I do want it to have no reason to exist.

I am an advocate for the mentally ill and homeless to not need Iron Gate. We need to build housing to get them off the street and have on site services like mental and health care, education, drug treatment and social services on site. It’s cheaper and more humane than leaving them on the street.

As for the poor, we need to increase food stamp benefits and remove sales taxes from groceries to make food more available and cheaper.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 26, 2015, 11:39:41 am
The QT at 11th and Peoria, and the associated street closing, was an absolute slap to the face to the Pearl District Association, the small area plan, and the proposed form based code. It is an homage to cooker cutter design. My box will fit wherever I say it will fit, zoning exemptions and all!

I bike down 3rd street in this area from time to time. It is an industrial/commercial area with little curb appeal. But it is moving in the right direction:

Hodges Bend is about a 5 minute walk away. Garden Diva. Church Studios. Nightingale theater. The Pearl Gallery. The Muslim Community Center. There's neat stuff in this area and the long term plan is to tie this area into the neat stuff at the hart of the Pearl District.  There is plenty of lots and buildings that can be built on or renovated. There are plenty of old houses mixed in that can be fixed up. The area is ripe for redevelopment in my opinion.

Unfortunately, Iron Gate's location will create a highway between the Day Center (area) and the new Iron Gate. A 30 minute walk past the heart of the Brady, the Blue Dome, and Hodges Bend. Again, the sad truth is that people buying $850,000 houses (and paying taxes on $850k houses) don't want a highway to a food pantry going by their new homes. Nor do business owners or developers.


I'm sure Story Wrecker would be happy to part with a surface lot or a tin shack for the right price, right across from the Day Center for the Homeless, the Salvation Army, John 3:16, the camping sites under the IDL bridge behind David L. Moss, near the library, etc. That sliver of the Brady is already doomed from a development standpoint.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on August 26, 2015, 12:08:32 pm
That's pretty disappointing. We abhor the arrival of mcmansions and walled off residential in my century old hood . They want nothing to do with us or our children or our public schools. We are lesser citizens in their eyes. Lots of nice quad apts and homes were ripped out of the Cherry street area too in exchange for half million dollar residents. Yet both these areas are stiil rife with iron gate undesirables. Most big cities are.

The path to Iron Gate starts at the river and the Moss area. They panhandle, stumble and socialize on that path, eat sober up and head back to liquor stores or QT then party and repeat. Moving that terminus another mile or so will stretch their resolve.
Just some observations but do you really think it wise to concentrate this population in one area and thereby execute its chances for rebirth? And do you really think the new location by the tracks would have kept those cool new tenants like Garden Diva or Church Studios from locating nearby? I don't.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: takemebacktotulsa on August 26, 2015, 12:16:44 pm
And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.

But, one of the first buildings that was converted to residential (the philtower) is literally next door to the Tulsa Club...


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on August 26, 2015, 12:52:35 pm
Years ago I contacted Iron Gate.

I asked that they ask their guests to approach downtown workers (my wife) in a less menacing manner asking for/demanding money.

(The company she worked for eventually moved out of downtown)

I also asked if there was a way they could use less Styrofoam containers when handing out the food.  (the containers littered the area for blocks)

I was accidentally kept on the email thread that followed and saw the responses by Irongate personnel and the church. 

From then on, I have no reason to support Irongate or the church.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2015, 01:22:01 pm
It doesn't mater where they go, it's going to be a fight.

Probably, but if the proposed site didn't require action by the Board of Adjustment, then it would be a different kind of fight.

Aquaman makes a great point that this is not in the "heart of the Pearl" but rather on the fringe in an area that is heavily industrial.  According to the measurement tool on Google Maps the Day Center is approx. 1,200 ft from The Tavern.  Iron Gate will be approx. 1,700 ft from The Phoenix.  Yet, the Brady District seems to be doing just fine.

A valid point --- I used the measurement tool on Google Maps.  The Day Center is approx. 1,700 ft from The Tavern (not 1,200 ft, but still about the same distance the proposed Iron Gate site is from The Phoenix); 1,100 ft from the Brady Theater; 1,300 ft from the Ward Building (Bar 46 / Coney Island / Sisserou's).

Also, don't forget this is the same neighborhood group that strongly opposed a new QT at 11th & Utica.  So, maybe we should rename The Pearl, The NIMBY District.

I haven't forgotten.  But there were others outside the Pearl District neighborhood group who strongly opposed the 11th & Utica QT.

The reasons I was opposed:

1. The PUD required the closing of a public street so QT could have a larger parking lot.

2. Although the new QT store design was described as pedestrian friendly, it's less friendly for pedestrians than the old store was.  It's farther from the street with a larger expanse of paving for pedestrians to cross.

3. The TMAPC and City Council largely ignored the Comp Plan for the district.  Phil Lakin should have recused himself from the matter, but he didn't.  It was one of the most ridiculous Council meetings I've seen.  After all the discussion about conflicts of interest, harlots, chopping babies in half, etc. --- only four of the councilors voted to uphold the plan and the public planning process.  So the Pearl District and the City lost another public street, thanks to five Councilors.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DowntownDan on August 26, 2015, 02:16:07 pm
I get the feeling that the daily "homeless parades" through downtown's entertainment districts are vastly overstated.  If there is ever a need to help people get from the day center to Iron Gate, I'm sure some philanthropists can arrange a bus or other form of help, especially on very hot or cold days.  Iron Gate also isn't limited to the homeless.  There are many poor people in town that use their services and it will be more accessible at the new location it seems.  Also, as has been mentioned, it's on the fringe of the Pearl District, by the tracks, in an industrial area, and I don't see it negatively affecting the development of 11th and 6th street corridors.  If it comes down to the idea that poor people are bad for business, well that's just not a right way to think.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 26, 2015, 02:54:44 pm
If it comes down to the idea that poor people are bad for business, well that's just not a right way to think.

I'm not arguing that it is right. I'm arguing that it is accurate.

How much of a discount would they have to give you to live next to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter? 25%, 50%? I don't care if it is Iron Gate, the downtown Salvation Army, the Day Center for the Homeless... by being located in an area they do not help the development of that area. They are, in fact, bad for business. They are bad for image. Helping homeless people, and disadvantaged people in general, is good for humanity. Good for our society. It's good for the overall economy in the long run. But having sketchy looking people come and go is bad for business in the area.

Note that the people who have commented who had to interact with the crowd universally have reported negative experiences. It isn't the hundreds who are down on their luck and need temporary assistance that caused those people to be uncomfortable. MOST of the people coming and going are no threat at all, most don't even look like a threat. But we are talking hundreds of people. From ~7:30 to about 11, the area would be one that most people would avoid.

The day center serves about 900 meals a day. 25% (their number) of the people they serve are homeless.  80% are male.  Statistically, 1/3 of area homeless have untreated serious mental illness. So that's 60 adult males with serious untreated mental illness coming, hanging around, and going - every day.

Not only is that an indictment of the mental health (and economic) plight of Oklahoma, but it is simply not something anyone wants in their neighborhood. It is simply a fact. I'm not asking for anyone to agree that homeless people, sketchy looking people, mentally ill people, or any patron of Iron Gate is a bad person (that aren't and it isn't). I'm not asking anyone to belittle the mission of Iron Gate. I'm just saying, as a practical matter, that NIMBY applies in this scenario for a reason.

(ALSO, for full disclosure, I have ZERO stake in this game. No property, work, or business in any of the considered or mentioned locations.)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2015, 03:28:02 pm
I'm not arguing that it is right. I'm arguing that it is accurate.

How much of a discount would they have to give you to live next to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter? 25%, 50%? I don't care if it is Iron Gate, the downtown Salvation Army, the Day Center for the Homeless... by being located in an area they do not help the development of that area. They are, in fact, bad for business. They are bad for image. Helping homeless people, and disadvantaged people in general, is good for humanity. Good for our society. It's good for the overall economy in the long run. But having sketchy looking people come and go is bad for business in the area.

I agree. 

I worked and walked in the vicinity of Iron Gate for several years.  I never had a terribly negative experience, just a few instances of people yelling at me and my stepping around nasty messes.

This issue will be decided by three or four people. Tori Snyder has recused herself.  Michael Tidwell recused himself, too, but he is leaving the Board, so the case will be heard by his replacement, Tom Flanagan, I'm assuming. 

Iron Gate needs three affirmative votes for the special exception.  I don't attend Board of Adjustment meetings very often, but if there's another huge crowd of opponents, then I think the BOA will be reluctant to approve the special exception.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on August 27, 2015, 08:33:06 am
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Iron Gate only serves mentally-ill and homeless?  I've been told by people that have volunteered there that a fair number of downtown works use their grocery services on a regular basis.

All it takes is one volunteer shift at a homeless shelter or social service agency to realize that many of those using social services look just like you.  Many aren't homeless.  Many work and have a roof over their head but their hourly wage just doesn't stretch far enough.

As an aside, Peoria isn't void of social service agencies.  The Family & Children's Services HQ sits on the front of the Central Park development and the Native American agency is just to the north of FCS.  Both have what many on this forum would describe as "undesirables" visiting throughout every day.  The reality is that FCS serves 1 in 6 Tulsans every year, proving my point that all walks of life need a social service agency at some point so don't be so quick to label all the clients of Iron Gate as mentally-ill homeless degenerates.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on August 27, 2015, 08:58:50 am
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Iron Gate only serves mentally-ill and homeless?  I've been told by people that have volunteered there that a fair number of downtown works use their grocery services on a regular basis.

All it takes is one volunteer shift at a homeless shelter or social service agency to realize that many of those using social services look just like you.  Many aren't homeless.  Many work and have a roof over their head but their hourly wage just doesn't stretch far enough.

As an aside, Peoria isn't void of social service agencies.  The Family & Children's Services HQ sits on the front of the Central Park development and the Native American agency is just to the north of FCS.  Both have what many on this forum would describe as "undesirables" visiting throughout every day.  The reality is that FCS serves 1 in 6 Tulsans every year, proving my point that all walks of life need a social service agency at some point so don't be so quick to label all the clients of Iron Gate as mentally-ill homeless degenerates.

I don't think anyone is saying that "Iron Gate only serves mentally ill and homeless".   To quote an earlier post:

"The day center serves about 900 meals a day. 25% (their number) of the people they serve are homeless.  80% are male.  Statistically, 1/3 of area homeless have untreated serious mental illness. So that's 60 adult males with serious untreated mental illness coming, hanging around, and going - every day."

To discount this out of hand, or suggest that people in the area should not be concerned with this aspect of the Iron Gate users, is illogical.  In a perfect world, everybody would get along, but we don't live in that world and the real ramifications of this proposed move have to be considered in a rational manner. 

And for the record, I also have no skin in the game (other than I do frequent the Hodges Bend area and the Phoenix), and am ambivalent about the move.  It just seems that some of the advocates are arguing "what ought to be", rather than "what should be expected".
 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on August 27, 2015, 11:59:56 am
I don't think anyone is saying that "Iron Gate only serves mentally ill and homeless".   To quote an earlier post:

"The day center serves about 900 meals a day. 25% (their number) of the people they serve are homeless.  80% are male.  Statistically, 1/3 of area homeless have untreated serious mental illness. So that's 60 adult males with serious untreated mental illness coming, hanging around, and going - every day."

To discount this out of hand, or suggest that people in the area should not be concerned with this aspect of the Iron Gate users, is illogical.  In a perfect world, everybody would get along, but we don't live in that world and the real ramifications of this proposed move have to be considered in a rational manner. 

And for the record, I also have no skin in the game (other than I do frequent the Hodges Bend area and the Phoenix), and am ambivalent about the move.  It just seems that some of the advocates are arguing "what ought to be", rather than "what should be expected".
 
Just as some are arguing what could be with massive investment versus what really exists and it's current useful nature. They instead dwell on their worst experiences with drunks and renegades. No one has addressed what I asked. Is it wise to keep corraling undesirables in a ghetto downtown? And what kind of development are you expecting on a sliver of commercial land "nestled" between the tracks and 244?

Even a casual bike ride slowly through the area should convince most people that if not here.... Where?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 27, 2015, 12:33:56 pm
Just as some are arguing what could be with massive investment versus what really exists and it's current useful nature. They instead dwell on their worst experiences with drunks and renegades. No one has addressed what I asked. Is it wise to keep corraling undesirables in a ghetto downtown? And what kind of development are you expecting on a sliver of commercial land "nestled" between the tracks and 244?

Even a casual bike ride slowly through the area should convince most people that if not here.... Where?

How about just north of 244 right around there? NE/NW of downtown. Or just west of downtown. I think they could find a number of empty lots and that would service a different area while still staying close to downtown while keeping out of the main downtown areas being redeveloped.

I agree that intersection is shabby and doesn't seem like it's worth protecting when you see it, but adding that a couple blocks from Hodges Bend would ensure even more panhandlers hang out in East Village bothering people. Really creating a nice panhandling trail from Brady to 3rd & Peoria. I've had several near-violent/scary interactions with panhandlers over the years (mostly in LA) so don't really trust people being in an area for the sole purpose of begging and getting free food. Anything that encourages that it bad for the area.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on August 27, 2015, 02:44:22 pm
How about just north of 244 right around there? NE/NW of downtown. Or just west of downtown. I think they could find a number of empty lots and that would service a different area while still staying close to downtown while keeping out of the main downtown areas being redeveloped.

I agree that intersection is shabby and doesn't seem like it's worth protecting when you see it, but adding that a couple blocks from Hodges Bend would ensure even more panhandlers hang out in East Village bothering people. Really creating a nice panhandling trail from Brady to 3rd & Peoria. I've had several near-violent/scary interactions with panhandlers over the years (mostly in LA) so don't really trust people being in an area for the sole purpose of begging and getting free food. Anything that encourages that it bad for the area.

NW of downtown is an up and coming neighborhood and NE is OSU Tulsa and Evans Fintube. Sadly, the place near downtown with the most rundown property is due east.

I work across the street from the current Iron Gate, walk by when they are serving regularly, only time I've ever been talked to by their patrons is to ask for directions or (once) complimented on my coat.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on August 27, 2015, 03:34:55 pm
Just as some are arguing what could be with massive investment versus what really exists and it's current useful nature. They instead dwell on their worst experiences with drunks and renegades. No one has addressed what I asked. Is it wise to keep corraling undesirables in a ghetto downtown? And what kind of development are you expecting on a sliver of commercial land "nestled" between the tracks and 244?

Even a casual bike ride slowly through the area should convince most people that if not here.... Where?

I drive through that area several times a week.  It may not be a looker right now, but then 5-8 years ago neither was 6th & Peoria or the Kendall Whittier neighborhood.  Can you realistically argue either of those areas would look like they do today if Iron Gate had located there 5-8 years ago?  What 3rd & Peoria can become is limited only by the vision and level of risk of those who want to give it a go.

As for where Iron Gate should go, my question is why does it need to be downtown or very near downtown at all?  There are already numerous locations downtown providing the same and similar services.  And if, as is claimed, a majority of its recipients are not homeless, then they must have some transportation getting them downtown now.  Maybe Iron Gate is more needed at 61st and Peoria or 71st & Riverside or 21st & Garnett, or any number of other places where you frequently see homeless folks and have local residents in need of its services.  As much as there is an argument against locating all of these similar service providers in one part of downtown, I would argue there is an equally good argument against locating all of these service providers downtown period.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2015, 08:26:42 am
NW of downtown is an up and coming neighborhood and NE is OSU Tulsa and Evans Fintube. Sadly, the place near downtown with the most rundown property is due east.

I said:
Quote
How about just north of 244 right around there (meaning north Peoria)? NE/NW of downtown. Or just west of downtown.

Notice that I didn't say directly north of downtown (where OSU Tulsa and Fintube are). Directly west of downtown has plenty of areas with empty lots and dilapidated buildings and is close to a lot of high poverty areas.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2015, 08:28:17 am
Another update:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/iron-gate-officials-to-meet-with-opposition-tuesday-regarding-proposed/article_3f0f8db1-e0c6-53b6-8001-444b1c872dab.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/iron-gate-officials-to-meet-with-opposition-tuesday-regarding-proposed/article_3f0f8db1-e0c6-53b6-8001-444b1c872dab.html)

Highlights:

Quote
Iron Gate is hosting a meeting at 6 p.m. Tuesday at its location in the basement of Trinity Episcopal Church, 501 S. Cincinnati Ave., so those who oppose the move can see the agency’s facility first hand.

Quote
The agency’s planned $9 million project to build a new headquarters at 302 S. Peoria Ave. is contingent on Board of Adjustment approval of zoning exceptions to allow for operation of the soup kitchen in an area zoned industrial.
The hearing is set for 1 p.m. Sept. 8 in the Tulsa City Council chambers, 175 E. Second St.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on August 31, 2015, 09:07:51 pm
Anyone here actually walk the streets and businesses at third and Peoria? It isn't the Pearl you're imagining.

Amen.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on August 31, 2015, 09:13:29 pm
It's three blocks to 6th and Peoria.

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.

It absolutely has hindered the development of those buildings. It's also a thorn in our rear at our Downtown location. It was more annoying two years ago when we first opened, but now I'm numb to it and just take the view someone has to feed them. I can tell you without a question it gives the city a bad image to thousands of tourist a year being in our city center though.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on August 31, 2015, 09:15:24 pm
Please tell me which property you'd like them to buy that is near the existing "social services corridor" in the NW corner of the IDL.

It doesn't mater where they go, it's going to be a fight.

Aquaman makes a great point that this is not in the "heart of the Pearl" but rather on the fringe in an area that is heavily industrial.  According to the measurement tool on Google Maps the Day Center is approx. 1,200 ft from The Tavern.  Iron Gate will be approx. 1,700 ft from The Phoenix.  Yet, the Brady District seems to be doing just fine.

Also, don't forget this is the same neighborhood group that strongly opposed a new QT at 11th & Utica.  So, maybe we should rename The Pearl, The NIMBY District.

Well that QT was outrageous in size compared to the previous version.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on August 31, 2015, 09:20:36 pm
I get the feeling that the daily "homeless parades" through downtown's entertainment districts are vastly overstated.  If there is ever a need to help people get from the day center to Iron Gate, I'm sure some philanthropists can arrange a bus or other form of help, especially on very hot or cold days.  Iron Gate also isn't limited to the homeless.  There are many poor people in town that use their services and it will be more accessible at the new location it seems.  Also, as has been mentioned, it's on the fringe of the Pearl District, by the tracks, in an industrial area, and I don't see it negatively affecting the development of 11th and 6th street corridors.  If it comes down to the idea that poor people are bad for business, well that's just not a right way to think.

They honestly are not overstated, at least from our business location at 5th and Boston. It's been an issue for years, but you just eventually accept it because helping out the poor is the right thing to do.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Gold on September 08, 2015, 05:53:59 pm
It was voted down 2-2 today.  They cited parking, but reading between the lines, they weren't impressed with misrepresentations made by Iron Gate and its proponents.  No one argues that the homeless or hungry don't need help, but it sure seems like there should be a deeper discussion about how to best use resources and planning.  And it would help if all the parties would be honest.  3rd and Peoria is not the same thing as 6th and Peoria or the Brady area.  And there are a lot more chronically homeless with a propensity to cause others trouble who are using Iron Gate than they let on.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on September 08, 2015, 08:34:27 pm
Perhaps a different clientele, I’m not certain who the clients are at the transitional living center at Yale & Admiral, but I suspect they may have been former Iron Gate clients or may still be.

It seems all the fears of surrounding property owners and nearby residents of wandering zombie homeless were grossly over-stated on that project.  In fact, I’m not aware of the area surrounding Admiral and Yale experiencing any sort of uptick in crime since that center was built.  It’s a whole lot better looking than the Warehouse Market which previously occupied the lot.

I believe the physical structure of the new Iron Gate might have been good for the area.  Take a long look at the Pearl from Peoria to Utica: it still has many low income residents as well as a Tulsa Housing Authority project or two as well as the Center For The Physically Limited and several other social services.  I don’t really see that Iron Gate locating there would kill the future potential of the area.  If anything, the physical quality of the development would have been a nice improvement.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 09, 2015, 07:31:10 am
Ultimate irony for a lack of parking to be cited as the reason.  If it had been just about any other type of business the Pearl District folks would have been clamoring for the lack of parking to be approved.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on September 09, 2015, 07:45:42 am
Ultimate irony for a lack of parking to be cited as the reason.  If it had been just about any other type of business the Pearl District folks would have been clamoring for the lack of parking to be approved.

I caught that. 

Trinity has the space to the south which is now surface parking.  Why don’t they just expand on their own property and have parishioners take advantage of other parking in the area?  That or give Trinity some incentives to build a parking structure above an expansion for Iron Gate which would benefit other buildings in the area during off-peak times for the church.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2015, 08:14:47 am
Ultimate irony for a lack of parking to be cited as the reason.  If it had been just about any other type of business the Pearl District folks would have been clamoring for the lack of parking to be approved.

But it wasn't a business and having them take up nearby street parking spaces and walk won't bring any potential new business or shoppers to the area. It wasn't just Pearl District business owners against it. Hodges bend is about 2 blocks away and that area is nice. They are putting in the food truck park 2 blocks away. Dead Armadillo and Tulsa's only whisky maker are 2 blocks away. Lots of new stuff popping up nearby including Topeca roastery 3 blocks north and Freeway Cafe.

If we want East downtown to keep expanding this way, one of the largest soup kitchens in the US can't be built there. This is bad for all businesses between the Day Center and Pearl. Do those places want more homeless than customers walking around? Because this is how you get more homeless than customers meandering through the heart of a quickly developing downtown.

You can help the homeless and also not hamper downtown growth so drastically. There are plenty of empty lots north of 244 (near Peoria/Lewis) and west of downtown. Hopefully they find a better spot. Wherever they go they will face opposition, but there should be places that don't require so many exceptions and can better accommodate this. Just about any empty lot off Charles Page blvd west of Owen Park where it's mostly industrial/empty might be able to work and will get a lot less opposition.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2015, 08:22:41 am
Years ago I contacted Iron Gate.

I asked that they ask their guests to approach downtown workers (my wife) in a less menacing manner asking for/demanding money.

(The company she worked for eventually moved out of downtown)

I also asked if there was a way they could use less Styrofoam containers when handing out the food.  (the containers littered the area for blocks)

I was accidentally kept on the email thread that followed and saw the responses by Irongate personnel and the church. 

From then on, I have no reason to support Irongate or the church.

This comment is very telling. It also echoes a comment I read on the TW:

Quote
I heard that Mr. Saunders from your board lost his cool at one of the neighborhood meetings and raised his voice in response to a question about why Iron Gate was not looking for a location closer to the Day Center and the other social services that also serve many of your guests. I was told he got a little bent out of shape and remarked, "So you want to turn that side of downtown into the ghetto". If Iron Gate moves to 3rd & Peoria, what types of businesses will want to purchase land across the street from them? No retail or restaurant for sure! Maybe a blood bank or something similar will find value in the land across the street.

After reading those, the Iron Gate leaders sound rude and out of touch. At least he admitted they will turn the Pearl District into a ghetto. I am glad it was denied:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: takemebacktotulsa on September 09, 2015, 09:33:20 am
I worry that the decision to deny the development because of parking will set a troubling precedent for any future developments in the Pearl. Especially for the kind of walkable/pedestrian friendly developments the Pearl District claims they want.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 09, 2015, 10:16:57 am
They will find another place no doubt. Like Gold, I didn't see any new arguments or logic to either approve or disapprove this location. The "undesirables" are most visible downtown but they migrate from all over the area. They travel to anywhere a church or social services organization exists.

I really dislike the idea of grouping them into the least desirable, least defended neighborhoods.

BTW, this thought occurred to me as I drove by Admiral and Peoria the other day. Upscale bars, restaurants, lofts and walled off residential is not always the "highest and best use" of a tract of land. This particular area works quite well as industrial/commercial.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DowntownDan on September 09, 2015, 10:26:04 am
This comment is very telling. It also echoes a comment I read on the TW:

After reading those, the Iron Gate leaders sound rude and out of touch. At least he admitted they will turn the Pearl District into a ghetto. I am glad it was denied:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html)

I don't interpret that as rude as much as frustration at the idea that we should just shove all the poor people in a corner of downtown by the jail and keep them from everywhere else.  He's not saying that Iron Gate would cause a ghetto, but that if the idea is to put all of the services in one small area, then it could turn into a ghetto since nobody else will accept it in their area.  Basically out of sight, out of mind.  For people who have strongly advocated for the poor, that idea is pretty offensive.  Having services throughout town not only help to try and integrate with the community, it also recognizes that not all of the people who use the service are homeless people panhandling downtown and that there is need all throughout the community.

Nevertheless, it looks like the Pearl won their battle to put it in someone else's backyard.  Congratulations I guess.  I'm sure that some people were against the move and also strongly in support of the poor and were truly motivated by parking and zoning and plans, but many were motivated purely by nimbyism, several of whom openly admit it, and the others are going to be grouped into the nimby category whether it's fair or not.  It looks like they won't appeal and will start looking elsewhere so its over for now.  Good luck finding a place that isn't going to raise the same ruckus.  Now for all of this idealistic utopia of the Pearl District, and especially 3rd and Peoria, to come to fruition.  I'm sure all the current residents with run down houses and living paycheck to paycheck will be super happy with all the exciting developments that wouldn't have been possible if they had allowed a multi-million dollar facility to be built to help more poor people.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2015, 12:01:44 pm
BTW, this thought occurred to me as I drove by Admiral and Peoria the other day. Upscale bars, restaurants, lofts and walled off residential is not always the "highest and best use" of a tract of land. This particular area works quite well as industrial/commercial.

Some of the most interesting places to visit in other cities are the old industrial areas where abandoned factories have been repurposed and turned into awesome thriving businesses (Minneapolis has a lot and London near the Borough Market and Camden Town are 2 great examples). The Brady District was very industrial before it started to turn around and it still has a sizeable industrial/commercial presence. One of the first things they did to improve Brady was removing a liquor store and homeless hangouts. There are dozens of businesses which have moved to the Pearl area already.

Want to reduce poverty and help those nearby? Improving the area and keeping the momentum going will help bring in even more investment help downtown and the Pearl and should produce more jobs in the area. When those businesses thrive, they can bring in more employees (See Marshall with their vast array of brews and their tasting room right now!). Marshall is constructing a new tasting room. So is Dead Armadillo. That brings money to the area for both construction and jobs. Money that might otherwise be going to big corporate chains and products.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on September 09, 2015, 12:10:52 pm
I don't interpret that as rude as much as frustration at the idea that we should just shove all the poor people in a corner of downtown by the jail and keep them from everywhere else.  He's not saying that Iron Gate would cause a ghetto, but that if the idea is to put all of the services in one small area, then it could turn into a ghetto since nobody else will accept it in their area.  Basically out of sight, out of mind.  For people who have strongly advocated for the poor, that idea is pretty offensive.  Having services throughout town not only help to try and integrate with the community, it also recognizes that not all of the people who use the service are homeless people panhandling downtown and that there is need all throughout the community.

Nevertheless, it looks like the Pearl won their battle to put it in someone else's backyard.  Congratulations I guess.  I'm sure that some people were against the move and also strongly in support of the poor and were truly motivated by parking and zoning and plans, but many were motivated purely by nimbyism, several of whom openly admit it, and the others are going to be grouped into the nimby category whether it's fair or not.  It looks like they won't appeal and will start looking elsewhere so its over for now.  Good luck finding a place that isn't going to raise the same ruckus.  Now for all of this idealistic utopia of the Pearl District, and especially 3rd and Peoria, to come to fruition.  I'm sure all the current residents with run down houses and living paycheck to paycheck will be super happy with all the exciting developments that wouldn't have been possible if they had allowed a multi-million dollar facility to be built to help more poor people.

It is reasonable to argue that we shouldn't concentrate all these service providers in one area.  Unfortunately, that is pretty much what we've done in the NW part of downtown specifically, and downtown generally.  This proposed location really just perpetuated that problem by keeping it essentially in the downtown area.  Again, are the service providers downtown because that is where the homeless/in need population is located or are are so many homeless/in need folks downtown because that is where the service providers are located?

As I understand it, Iron Gate currently offers some mobile services.  Perhaps it would better serve its mission for the targeted community to expand those mobile services to go to the people instead of forcing them to come to  Iron Gate - wherever it is located.





Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: PonderInc on September 09, 2015, 12:29:41 pm
I read an article in the Frontier that said one of the reasons the BOA turned it down was that they didn't have enough parking.  Seriously?  Not enough parking for.. the homeless folks?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 09, 2015, 12:35:10 pm
Some of the most interesting places to visit in other cities are the old industrial areas where abandoned factories have been repurposed and turned into awesome thriving businesses (Minneapolis has a lot and London near the Borough Market and Camden Town are 2 great examples). The Brady District was very industrial before it started to turn around and it still has a sizeable industrial/commercial presence. One of the first things they did to improve Brady was removing a liquor store and homeless hangouts. There are dozens of businesses which have moved to the Pearl area already.

Want to reduce poverty and help those nearby? Improving the area and keeping the momentum going will help bring in even more investment help downtown and the Pearl and should produce more jobs in the area. When those businesses thrive, they can bring in more employees (See Marshall with their vast array of brews and their tasting room right now!). Marshall is constructing a new tasting room. So is Dead Armadillo. That brings money to the area for both construction and jobs. Money that might otherwise be going to big corporate chains and products.

That's not entirely correct. Brady had lots of abandoned and underperforming industrial/commercial/warehouses from an architecturally interesting period of time. Third and Peoria has warehousing, welding supplies, labor finders, manufacturing, machining, paint suppliers, electrical suppliers, industrial services, fabricators etc. currently providing low overhead to the operators and tax dollars to the community. I can't place a liquor store in the area until you get to Whittier Square (I grew up in the area). They are not architecturally or historically contributing. They are just old.

That is not to be confused with warehouse districts that have huge abandoned buildings or large operations like Borg Steel.

Nonetheless, its done. The essential problem is that one area of town on the western boundary of Brady is acceptable since it is already polluted. Yet on the East side of Brady it isn't acceptable. Move it to 31st and Sheridan. Lots of empty parking lots over there.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2015, 02:30:26 pm
That's not entirely correct. Brady had lots of abandoned and underperforming industrial/commercial/warehouses from an architecturally interesting period of time. Third and Peoria has warehousing, welding supplies, labor finders, manufacturing, machining, paint suppliers, electrical suppliers, industrial services, fabricators etc. currently providing low overhead to the operators and tax dollars to the community. I can't place a liquor store in the area until you get to Whittier Square (I grew up in the area). They are not architecturally or historically contributing. They are just old.

Which part is not entirely correct? Buildings like the ones Topeca and Selser Schaefer Architects restored (old ice factory) are a couple examples in the area. There are many more including this one next to Topeca which could be restored to something neat: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1602026,-95.9755954,3a,75y,308.53h,85.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0b3WsfynyDYvjKWxDrhHyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1602026,-95.9755954,3a,75y,308.53h,85.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0b3WsfynyDYvjKWxDrhHyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

There are plenty of old interesting buildings in the Pearl District. They are more spread out than in the Brady but they are there. Explore the area and see that businesses are opening all over and investors are putting money into restoring old buildings like the Garden Deva shop.

You don't believe me about the liquor store in Brady District? Well here is the quote from the News on 6 article:
Quote
When Sharp bought the old Fox Hotel building at Main and Brady in the early ‘80s, it was being used as a liquor store—a very successful liquor store. It was the biggest seller of cheap Night Train wine west of the Mississippi.

"It's hard to exaggerate how bad it was. I would come down in the morning, and I officed in the back, in the old liquor store office when I first started, and I would scoop people out of the way," Sharp said.

And when he hung a closed sign on the liquor store's front door, Sharp, a college history major and disenchanted attorney, probably sparked the Brady District's long, slow comeback.
http://www.newson6.com/story/20929692/the-man-who-owns-downtown-tulsa (http://www.newson6.com/story/20929692/the-man-who-owns-downtown-tulsa)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 09, 2015, 03:58:48 pm
Our definition of Pearl differs. I didn't deny a liquor store existed in Brady. There were tons of abandoned interesting buildings shuttered up in Brady waiting for promised downtown development for decades.
Read for comprehension.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on September 09, 2015, 04:13:05 pm
This was not the right place for a soup kitchen.....


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 09, 2015, 06:45:36 pm
What is the right place? I see panhandlers at 31st and Memorial near the hotels. In fact they are all over the city. Why does it have to be downtown?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on September 09, 2015, 06:52:44 pm
What is the right place? I see panhandlers at 31st and Memorial near the hotels. In fact they are all over the city. Why does it have to be downtown?

Panhandlers at major intersections generally are not homeless or needy, they are grifters. They are not the people you see at Iron Gate. My issue with Iron Gate is the same issue I have the Day Center. They shouldn't need to exist and the money they raise should be used to HOUSE Tulsa's chronically homeless most of whom have drug and mental illness issues. Wherever that housing exists it should be located near where the services for the needy already are, such as public health, social workers, mental health facilities.  It's not creating a ghetto, it's providing easy access to services to the people that need them.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TeeDub on September 09, 2015, 08:21:12 pm
Not so sure about that.    There is a substantial homeless population around 41st and Skelly.   There are several assistance places right there as well.

http://www.12and12.org/


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 10, 2015, 07:52:50 am
This comes down to the fact no one wants social service agencies in their area of investment, whether that be retail, industrial, office or residential.  If you run a social service agency and are forced to move you hope and pray you can find the least offensive option and make it work for the surrounding neighborhood. 

Other than placing another social service in the NW corner of the IDL where would you recommend placing this facility to accomplish meeting their goal of serving those hungry for an immediate meal and those needing groceries AND meeting the needs of a neighborhood that won't fight placing it there?

Also tell me which building in the NW corner of the IDL would work?  Let's say north of 1st St and west of Cheyenne while being inside the IDL.  If you go north or west of the IDL within that definition you are immediately in residential areas.

Edited to correct Cameron to Cheyenne.  Got my C's mixed up.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 10, 2015, 07:59:22 am
RDJ - I think they can move anywhere in the IDL. So long as it doesn't require a zoning change, the neighbors can be mad but I think they can go in. But, again, I cant fault people for NIMBY here. If they moved in next to just about anything, it will negatively effect occupancy/rent and property value.  Even if an owner has no problem with the situation, financially they are in a difficult spot.  You'll notice Sager didn't offer the 1st Street Lofts property... (that's a joke, a bad one)


Lets look at the bigger issue:

Iron Gate raises more $1,300,000 a year.
2013 Annual report: http://www.irongatetulsa.org/IronGate/assets/File/IG_AnnualReport2013.pdf

Tulsa Day Center does almost $4 million.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=9174#.VfGEsPZViko )

John 3:16 does $7.5 million a year.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10102#.VfGFPvZViko

The Commuity Foodbank does $31mil a year.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12139#.VfGFgfZViko

Tulsa Area United way does $25mil.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4590#.VfGFnfZViko

Add in Churches, the Tulsa Mental Health Association, the Dream Center, tribal and Indian programs, HUD, the VA, and other governmental programs...

Now, the Day Center and John 3:16 focus on the homeless (John 3:16 has some great youth programs too). Community Foodbank and the United Way do a ton of different things, that include the homeless and not. But for every dollar they don't allocate to that issue, a Church, other non-profit, or government agency does. That's a TON of money. And according to Charity Navigator, they do a good job (mostly four stars for those that are ranked!).

At the last count, Tulsa has just over 700 homeless people (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/number-of-chronically-homeless-in-tulsa-declines-for-third-straight/article_b4ca893a-87d4-5df3-8ecd-16342cb5bd1e.html). The vast majority "situationally homeless" and ~90 "chronically homeless." A new teacher in Oklahoma makes $31,600. 700 teachers collectively make $22mil a year... working as trained college graduates.

By the numbers, it appears very likely that we spend more than that supporting the homeless population in Tulsa each year. And, of course, homeless doesn't mean "zero income," lazy, or worthless. So we are really spending that to augment the living situation of homeless people. You can get a two bedroom apartment in Tulsa for $600. 350 of those is $2.5 million a year. Homelessness over?  We must be doing it wrong. I know drug and mental health issues make it more complicated than that...  but, well, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the issues.

I'm not indicting the homeless people, the organizations/people helping, or people who think they don't need to help. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, thinking aloud (metaphorically jerk!).  There has to be a better way.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on September 10, 2015, 08:28:49 am
RDJ - I think they can move anywhere in the IDL. So long as it doesn't require a zoning change, the neighbors can be mad but I think they can go in. But, again, I cant fault people for NIMBY here. If they moved in next to just about anything, it will negatively effect occupancy/rent and property value.  Even if an owner has no problem with the situation, financially they are in a difficult spot.  You'll notice Sager didn't offer the 1st Street Lofts property... (that's a joke, a bad one)


Lets look at the bigger issue:

Iron Gate raises more $1,300,000 a year.
2013 Annual report: http://www.irongatetulsa.org/IronGate/assets/File/IG_AnnualReport2013.pdf

Tulsa Day Center does almost $4 million.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=9174#.VfGEsPZViko )

John 3:16 does $7.5 million a year.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10102#.VfGFPvZViko

The Commuity Foodbank does $31mil a year.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12139#.VfGFgfZViko

Tulsa Area United way does $25mil.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4590#.VfGFnfZViko

Add in Churches, the Tulsa Mental Health Association, the Dream Center, tribal and Indian programs, HUD, the VA, and other governmental programs...

Now, the Day Center and John 3:16 focus on the homeless (John 3:16 has some great youth programs too). Community Foodbank and the United Way do a ton of different things, that include the homeless and not. But for every dollar they don't allocate to that issue, a Church, other non-profit, or government agency does. That's a TON of money. And according to Charity Navigator, they do a good job (mostly four stars for those that are ranked!).

At the last count, Tulsa has just over 700 homeless people (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/number-of-chronically-homeless-in-tulsa-declines-for-third-straight/article_b4ca893a-87d4-5df3-8ecd-16342cb5bd1e.html). The vast majority "situationally homeless" and ~90 "chronically homeless." A new teacher in Oklahoma makes $31,600. 700 teachers collectively make $22mil a year... working as trained college graduates.

By the numbers, it appears very likely that we spend more than that supporting the homeless population in Tulsa each year. And, of course, homeless doesn't mean "zero income," lazy, or worthless. So we are really spending that to augment the living situation of homeless people. You can get a two bedroom apartment in Tulsa for $600. 350 of those is $2.5 million a year. Homelessness over?  We must be doing it wrong. I know drug and mental health issues make it more complicated than that...  but, well, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the issues.

I'm not indicting the homeless people, the organizations/people helping, or people who think they don't need to help. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, thinking aloud (metaphorically jerk!).  There has to be a better way.


Exactly.

It's far more expensive to support someone on the streets. It's more cost effective and much more humane to HOUSE them. Keep them safe, give them access to services to help them get better.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 10, 2015, 09:03:14 am
Well made points. However, I can think of two social service oriented operations, one at 3rd and Utica, and one at 28th & Harvard that have minimal effect on the surrounding neighborhoods. And there are many churches deep in neighborhoods that provide help to these same customers without much effect. Its the hard core 90 or so that represent what no one wants assembling in their business/residential neighborhood.

The reality is that is practically hopeless given the disparity of funding involved, (some state, some private, some probably federal), that these same funds could be repurposed to provide homes, food, education and training. Their fundamental missions vary.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 10, 2015, 09:23:22 am
Exactly.

It's far more expensive to support someone on the streets. It's more cost effective and much more humane to HOUSE them. Keep them safe, give them access to services to help them get better.

Great idea and one I completely agree with.

The Pearl District wants housing, right?  What if Iron Gate said, "you know what, you're right, this isn't the place for a soup kitchen.  Let's give a big chunk of our homeless clients a place to live.  Can we buy this land over here in the Pearl District and put in a 300 unit apartment complex with subsidized housing for homeless?"

At $50k a door that is about a $15MM investment in the Pearl District.

I would guarantee that gets the same level of push back the soup kitchen did.  See the small unit at Admiral & Yale that Conan has referenced for an example.  I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood at the time and a vocal minority fought that project with the same fear mongering used by other districts.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 10, 2015, 02:42:51 pm
Im not sure RDJ. Push back for sure... But probably not the same level.

Aquaman: what social services are at 28th and Harvard?  I mean, I love the Colony... But I wouldn't call it social services. Unless you meant 28th Place - because the bike shop IS a social service.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on September 10, 2015, 03:20:36 pm
Great idea and one I completely agree with.

The Pearl District wants housing, right?  What if Iron Gate said, "you know what, you're right, this isn't the place for a soup kitchen.  Let's give a big chunk of our homeless clients a place to live.  Can we buy this land over here in the Pearl District and put in a 300 unit apartment complex with subsidized housing for homeless?"

At $50k a door that is about a $15MM investment in the Pearl District.

I would guarantee that gets the same level of push back the soup kitchen did.  See the small unit at Admiral & Yale that Conan has referenced for an example.  I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood at the time and a vocal minority fought that project with the same fear mongering used by other districts.

But that particular development has reportedly had NO impact on the area. That's kind of the point. Treat the homeless as human, give them a roof and food and access to medical and behavioral care and they will be healthier and less destructive to themselves and the areas around them.

If I was to choose a location it would be the Storey Wrecker site. It's right by OSU Medical and DHS. Put ~200 apartments there for the chronically homeless, drug addicted and people newly off the street and then smaller housing complexes around the city for the people in need of permanent housing like the disabled or stabilized mentally ill and then other housing complexes for people transitioning to normal housing from being homeless, kind of halfway houses once they have jobs and income but still aren’t ready to live on their own.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 10, 2015, 03:41:45 pm
Im not sure RDJ. Push back for sure... But probably not the same level.

Aquaman: what social services are at 28th and Harvard?  I mean, I love the Colony... But I wouldn't call it social services. Unless you meant 28th Place - because the bike shop IS a social service.

He may mean Family & Children's Services which is at about 24th & Harvard.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 10, 2015, 05:20:55 pm
Yes, thank you. The same faces, the usual suspects milling around waiting for a variety of services from mental to substance abuse to food vouchers.

However, I have done some social work of sorts at the Colony.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 11, 2015, 07:24:23 am
But that particular development has reportedly had NO impact on the area. That's kind of the point. Treat the homeless as human, give them a roof and food and access to medical and behavioral care and they will be healthier and less destructive to themselves and the areas around them.

If I was to choose a location it would be the Storey Wrecker site. It's right by OSU Medical and DHS. Put ~200 apartments there for the chronically homeless, drug addicted and people newly off the street and then smaller housing complexes around the city for the people in need of permanent housing like the disabled or stabilized mentally ill and then other housing complexes for people transitioning to normal housing from being homeless, kind of halfway houses once they have jobs and income but still aren’t ready to live on their own.


If you mean the Storey Wrecker site at Archer & the IDL the County as already spoken for that site.  They are probably the only landowner that can turn it in to anything and I'm told they've turned down offers.  Storey moved there in the early 70's, I believe, so 40+ years of storing wreck automobiles can't be good for the soil tests.

Why isn't providing a free meal and a referral to other services treating someone like a human?

An article in the Journal Record Tuesday talked about how the industrial use property owners are beginning to be squeezed out of downtown due to the property being too valuable.  If for-profit users can't make downtown work, how can a non-profit?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 11, 2015, 07:26:21 am
Im not sure RDJ. Push back for sure... But probably not the same level.

Aquaman: what social services are at 28th and Harvard?  I mean, I love the Colony... But I wouldn't call it social services. Unless you meant 28th Place - because the bike shop IS a social service.

Just to follow up on your first comment.  You don't think putting a development intended for homeless would have significant push back by the Pearl District?  Look how hard they fought a service that would only have homeless there for 8-10 hours a day.  Put these undesirables in their neighborhood twenty-fours a day and make it their home-base?  That push back might rival when ODOT tried to level Maple Ridge for the IDL.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on September 11, 2015, 08:25:34 am
Exactly.

It's far more expensive to support someone on the streets. It's more cost effective and much more humane to HOUSE them. Keep them safe, give them access to services to help them get better.

That all sounds good, but to a large extent the problem with the chronic homeless is not a lack of resources, social services or beds in shelters (and there is a big difference between the temporary or situational homeless and the chronic homeless), the problem is that many chronic homeless choose to stay that way.  I don’t mean that as they are making a rational well-thought out decision.  Instead, I mean that most chronic homeless suffer addiction/mental health issues and refuse treatment/services available to them.  With the deinstitutionalization by courts in the late 1970s and other changes in laws, no service provider can “put” them in a shelter or housing unless they want to and are willing to do so.  Unfortunately, as a result many of the service providers simply provide food, basic necessities and occasional temporary shelter to the chronic homeless without changing any of the underlying conditions causing the homelessness.

That is why I was disappointed that the Iron Gate plan lacked any effort to think anew and act anew.  Instead, it took the fixed location soup kitchen/food pantry concept it is operating and simply wanted to build it bigger.  The aphorism about giving a man a fish for a day versus teaching him to fish may be shopworn, but it carries a very simple truth.  We spend a lot of money to sustain the chronic homeless in their current condition without accomplishing much on the macro level to end their homelessness.  I don’t have the answers, but it seems clear continuing to do the same thing on a larger scale is not likely to get us the results we want.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TeeDub on September 11, 2015, 08:29:10 am

We can always try the Oklahoma City method.

http://www.ibtimes.com/homeless-bus-ticket-programs-across-nation-offer-little-accountability-poor-housing-2016812
For years, Oklahoma City tackled its homeless problem by handing out bus tickets to other cities to its down-and-out residents.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on September 11, 2015, 08:35:30 am
DT, Its their mission. Consider that they are charged with feeding, clothing, aiding the less fortunate. Not judging whether they are mentally ill, physically unfit, drug addicted or unwilling to learn or work. It is a biblical mission. Social work is a different mission that may have its origins in religion but is primarily a betterment effort. Thus Salvation Army and Iron Gate are saving souls and doing the Lord's work. Family and Children's Services and other quasi-government organizations are trying to manage these deficits and help rebuild broken lives.

That's what I mean by the difficulty of having organizations with different funding for their missions come together in a cohesive effort.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 11, 2015, 09:07:07 am
We can always try the Oklahoma City method.

http://www.ibtimes.com/homeless-bus-ticket-programs-across-nation-offer-little-accountability-poor-housing-2016812
For years, Oklahoma City tackled its homeless problem by handing out bus tickets to other cities to its down-and-out residents.

On the Chamber's recent trip to Nashville they were told Nashville interviews the homeless, finds where they have family and buys them a plane ticket to that city.  Cost about $150k a year.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on September 11, 2015, 09:08:32 am
DT, Its their mission. Consider that they are charged with feeding, clothing, aiding the less fortunate. Not judging whether they are mentally ill, physically unfit, drug addicted or unwilling to learn or work. It is a biblical mission. Social work is a different mission that may have its origins in religion but is primarily a betterment effort. Thus Salvation Army and Iron Gate are saving souls and doing the Lord's work. Family and Children's Services and other quasi-government organizations are trying to manage these deficits and help rebuild broken lives.

That's what I mean by the difficulty of having organizations with different funding for their missions come together in a cohesive effort.

Interesting.  On that line, I'd put this up for discussion.  I have friend of mine who is fond of the saying "don't feed the bears" as it relates to reducing panhandling and the like.  If as you say (and I agree with you) the religious-based organizations are simply concerned with aiding the less fortunate (and not in actually addressing any of the root problems) could we argue that they are simply abetting unwanted and/or unproductive behaviors?  If so, then the denial of the Iron Gate move and expansion seems prudent.  


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 11, 2015, 09:09:22 am
Exactly.

It's far more expensive to support someone on the streets. It's more cost effective and much more humane to HOUSE them. Keep them safe, give them access to services to help them get better.


What DTowner said....


Salvation Army is one of those places where one can get room and board just by walking in the door and asking.  BUT - there are conditions - the person(s) must be making an effort to make changes to the situation/conditions that got them there in the first place.  Like DT said, many don't want to change.

So what does housing consist of??  Just build a few dwelling places and let people move in with no conditions/oversight ?  What would be the rules?  No rules?  That rapidly slides into situations like Opium dens and Cabrini Green.

Can't get much easier than the SA in theory - just stay clean/dry (drug and alcohol) and bath regularly.  Don't get into fights and start a plan to get yourself back on your feet.  The problem is, many aren't ready to make that effort.  How do you 'help' them?  Can't get there from here - has to be something additional to address the mental issues so many face who are in that situation - we seem to have the wrong mix to the services you mention.  We as a society have failed in that...basically since the 'git-go'.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on September 11, 2015, 09:14:29 am
Someone who falls in the chronic homeless category can't be "fixed" overnight.  It is a long process that can take many months or even years.  Which is why the need for day centers and soup kitchen/food pantries will always have a need.  It should also be noted that many of those served by Iron Gate are not homeless.  In fact from my conversations with their staff they have many a downtown worker that visits for groceries.  For whatever reason that week or month they are short on cash and choose to pay rent or car payment and then can get assistance with food. 

I would disagree that the traditionally "faith-based" organizations don't work with the "state-sponsored" organizations.  From my experience with Family & Children's Services, Mental Health Association and John 3:16 the staff and senior management of those organizations work very well together.  From my perspective/experience the top social service agencies in Tulsa work together very well.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 11, 2015, 09:15:53 am
DT, Its their mission. Consider that they are charged with feeding, clothing, aiding the less fortunate. Not judging whether they are mentally ill, physically unfit, drug addicted or unwilling to learn or work. It is a biblical mission. Social work is a different mission that may have its origins in religion but is primarily a betterment effort. Thus Salvation Army and Iron Gate are saving souls and doing the Lord's work. Family and Children's Services and other quasi-government organizations are trying to manage these deficits and help rebuild broken lives.

That's what I mean by the difficulty of having organizations with different funding for their missions come together in a cohesive effort.


Salvation Army does quite a bit more than just feeding/clothing people.  They take people in at the shelter and help them get connected to other services related to rehab, job training, etc.  I worked with several downtown shelter residents for a few years when I was in town more, and these guys had decided to make the change and go a different direction.  They were moving back into mainstream life.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 11, 2015, 09:56:09 am
From my conversation with people who have worked full time for Iron Gate, their advertised client based of 75%-25% is likely inverted in reality. With the vast majority of their soup kitchen clientele being homeless.  Their food pantry is the exact opposite, if you are homeless, having food that needs to be stored/cooked doesn't do you a lot of good.

rdj:
I truly think the housing would have less resistance than the soup kitchen.  A soup kitchen, by its very nature, attracts transients. The people who will utilize it the most are the chronically homeless who either don't want help or can't live up to the expectations to get it. The housing solutions are, most often, nicer than other free-market apartments across the area. They set standards and maintain them.  I know I'd be more comfortable with such a place in my neighborhood over a food kitchen.

Aquaman:
Child and Family Services took over an existing medical building and totally renovated it. It is bordered by a large commercial structure (medical) and a retail development.  There are not hundreds of people walking to and hanging out around there everyday (or ever). The only people outside the structure I ever see are waiting on the bus or walking by (and I don't think most of them are coming or going to that service). They focus on services to children, a completely different client base.  The only negative effect of that building is the addition of yet another bus stop on Harvard (6 per mile) and a pedestrian trigger stop light (there are now stop lights at 41st, 36th, 31st, 27th, 26th, 25th, 24th, and 21st).


On the bigger issue, I'd be very interested in hearing from a social worker/scientist who has studied the most effective ways of dealing with homelessness. I understand handouts are the easiest and most "Christian" way of facing the problem, but it isn't a solution.  Mental health, economic opportunity, addiction counseling, and housing - there is a lot to deal with. Just curious.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: carltonplace on September 15, 2015, 10:30:11 am
We can always try the Oklahoma City method.

http://www.ibtimes.com/homeless-bus-ticket-programs-across-nation-offer-little-accountability-poor-housing-2016812
For years, Oklahoma City tackled its homeless problem by handing out bus tickets to other cities to its down-and-out residents.

I bet if you polled folks arriving at the Grey hound station that would find this practice is still happening in other cities.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 20, 2015, 09:30:22 am
http://www.newson6.com/story/30305841/multiple-drug-overdoses-reported-at-downtown-tulsa-soup-kitchen


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 20, 2015, 11:26:19 am
Nothing to see hear! This doesn't affect nearby businesses, well-being or safety of the neighborhood at all!

/Sarcasm tag might be needed


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on October 20, 2015, 01:33:35 pm
Nothing to see hear! This doesn't affect nearby businesses, well-being or safety of the neighborhood at all!

/Sarcasm tag might be needed

My office is next door. My well-being and safety are unphased.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on October 20, 2015, 02:13:17 pm
My office is next door. My well-being and safety are unphased.

Dude...you are so high right now


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 20, 2015, 02:34:37 pm
My office is next door. My well-being and safety are unphased.

Then again - you don't live there, own the building, or spend much time coming or going.

"At least" 9 people overdosed. That means at least 9 people were on some drug dangerous enough to cause an overdose (that is, not just stoned). Unfortunately, a symptom of the situation many of the clientele find themselves in is drug use. Another is alcoholism. Another is crime.

Justifiable NIMBY.

Iron Gate was in the paper again over the weekend. An intriguing photo was taken of a man walking to Iron Gate wrapped in a sheet. Really an amazing photo. The guy was released from David L. Moss and was heading to Iron Gate, as he was taken to David L. Moss in just shorts...that's what he left in. They gave him the sheet to keep warm as it was ~50 degrees.

But once again, not a great advertisement for a neighborhood asset.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 20, 2015, 03:33:53 pm
My office is next door. My well-being and safety are unphased.


I am so happy your well-being and safety were unphased! We are all so happy for you! Congrats! You earn a golden star!
Nevertheless, having more people doing drugs around where you live and work will statistically increase the likelihood of bad things happening (crime, robberies and incidents like this one). Do some research. Drug addicts commit more crimes.

They had to shut a street down for medical personnel for this! Who is paying for all of that health care? Not the ones getting the care. Furthermore that takes the medical personnel away from other calls. Other people could've died and likely had delayed help because so many ambulances were called to help a bunch of people who OD'd.

Futhermore a 12 year old was one of those! And it was at 9am! How messed up could a situation possibly be and some will act like this is "no big deal because I am not personally affected!"


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on October 20, 2015, 03:48:25 pm
Futhermore a 12 year old was one of those! And it was at 9am! How messed up could a situation possibly be and some will act like this is "no big deal because I am not personally affected!"

I didn't say it was a big deal, but people getting high across the street at work affects me about as much as the house of TU students who were stoned nightly across the street from my house.


having more people doing drugs around where you live and work will statistically increase the likelihood of bad things happening

See also Colorado.

If iron gate wasn't dealing with a bunch of half-dressed people hanging out in a parking lot because their building is too small this would help prevent it too. Homeless or not, you have a bunch of people milling around in a parking lot for hours, dumb things will happen. See any high school.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 20, 2015, 04:42:35 pm
I didn't say it was a big deal, but people getting high across the street at work affects me about as much as the house of TU students who were stoned nightly across the street from my house.


See also Colorado.

If iron gate wasn't dealing with a bunch of half-dressed people hanging out in a parking lot because their building is too small this would help prevent it too. Homeless or not, you have a bunch of people milling around in a parking lot for hours, dumb things will happen. See any high school.

So them overdosing inside would be better.....???


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on October 20, 2015, 08:46:07 pm
I didn't say it was a big deal, but people getting high across the street at work affects me about as much as the house of TU students who were stoned nightly across the street from my house.


See also Colorado.

If iron gate wasn't dealing with a bunch of half-dressed people hanging out in a parking lot because their building is too small this would help prevent it too. Homeless or not, you have a bunch of people milling around in a parking lot for hours, dumb things will happen. See any high school.

Actual pot =/= this "synthetic marijuana" crap


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: carltonplace on October 21, 2015, 06:35:41 am
When I spend all of my money on drugs, it's a good thing there is a place in downtown that will feed me. I don't have to make a choice between being high or eating.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 06:51:18 am
Actual pot =/= this "synthetic marijuana" crap

LOL@ Actual pot.....!!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 06:52:07 am
When I spend all of my money on drugs, it's a good thing there is a place in downtown that will feed me. I don't have to make a choice between being high or eating.

Iron gate should open up in Utica Square.......


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 21, 2015, 09:03:34 am
Nothing to see hear! This doesn't affect nearby businesses, well-being or safety of the neighborhood at all!

/Sarcasm tag might be needed

Actually, it doesn't. Adjacent to Iron Gate, Moss Correctional and DayCare for the Homeless sits.....Brady District. Maple Ridge often has people obviously affected in some way walking the streets muttering to themselves, carrying skateboards and bags and sometimes yelling out. Both areas seem to be doing well. Cherry Street has its share as well as the Pearl.

People on K-2 are pretty helpless as they flail their arms and wriggle on the pavement. I have seen its results up close. Unsightly but not so dangerous. Meth and crack are way different.

I don't apologize for their behavior, but they are fellow humans and deserve some compassion and forgiveness. I do take issue with the idea that putting more of them in the DL Moss concentration camp area by consigning the Iron Gate to that area is any real attempt at solutions or would make downtowners safer.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 12:56:08 pm
Actually, it doesn't. Adjacent to Iron Gate, Moss Correctional and DayCare for the Homeless sits.....Brady District. Maple Ridge often has people obviously affected in some way walking the streets muttering to themselves, carrying skateboards and bags and sometimes yelling out. Both areas seem to be doing well. Cherry Street has its share as well as the Pearl.

People on K-2 are pretty helpless as they flail their arms and wriggle on the pavement. I have seen its results up close. Unsightly but not so dangerous. Meth and crack are way different.

I don't apologize for their behavior, but they are fellow humans and deserve some compassion and forgiveness. I do take issue with the idea that putting more of them in the DL Moss concentration camp area by consigning the Iron Gate to that area is any real attempt at solutions or would make downtowners safer.






You will change your mind after they have chewed your face off.......!!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 21, 2015, 01:22:28 pm
I'll send you pics royalty free.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 01:53:01 pm
I'll send you pics royalty free.

Zombie....!!!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 21, 2015, 04:00:45 pm
Ever get the feeling we're just f-ing doomed?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 04:09:26 pm
Ever get the feeling we're just f-ing doomed?

Thats why I just ordered a nice Katana off amazon......


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 21, 2015, 04:44:10 pm
Ever get the feeling we're just f-ing doomed?

I got this for the Zombie Apocalypse..............

http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/ (http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 04:57:24 pm
I got this for the Zombie Apocalypse..............

http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/ (http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/)

Where do you live....???..I can show you my Katana and check out your vehicle.......


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Red Arrow on October 21, 2015, 04:59:28 pm
Thats why I just ordered a nice Katana off amazon......

One of these?
http://www.diamond-air.at/single-engine-aircraft/da20i-katana.html



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 21, 2015, 05:02:12 pm
That looks like fun. I dream of flying and enjoying it. In real life it scares me like the thought of Zombie apocalypse.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 21, 2015, 05:04:05 pm
I got this for the Zombie Apocalypse..............

http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/ (http://blog.1aauto.com/2011/07/18/steampunk-zombie-apocalypse-survival-vehicle-for-sale/)

Ha! Thomas the Tank Engine goes steampunk! But fill the extra seat with ammo. You'll have no friends.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 21, 2015, 05:42:09 pm
One of these?
http://www.diamond-air.at/single-engine-aircraft/da20i-katana.html



Noooooooo......!!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on October 21, 2015, 05:46:22 pm

You will change your mind after they have chewed your face off.......!!!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 21, 2015, 05:46:39 pm
Where do you live....???..I can show you my Katana and check out your vehicle.......

An undisclosed location in the PNW, and I have the coordinates for all of the old Atlas, Titan, Minuteman Missile sites and the old DEW Line Stations from the Aleutian Islands to Nova Scotia along the northern border of Canada.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on October 21, 2015, 06:54:21 pm
A 5-minute cellphone video shot by a homeless man shows the streets around the PSO building (Old Central HS) littered with convulsing OD victims, so it might be a bit unfair to point the finger at Iron Gate soup kitchen.  Almost all local media falsely repeating its "synthetic marijuana" while 23 pointed out that while K2 was at one time supposed to mimic marijuana, its actually not related at all.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TheArtist on October 21, 2015, 09:37:13 pm
A 5-minute cellphone video shot by a homeless man shows the streets around the PSO building (Old Central HS) littered with convulsing OD victims, so it might be a bit unfair to point the finger at Iron Gate soup kitchen.  Almost all local media falsely repeating its "synthetic marijuana" while 23 pointed out that while K2 was at one time supposed to mimic marijuana, its actually not related at all.

Yea this kind of thing is great for retail business, especially for one that has a large portion of its sales being children's toys and books.  "Mommy mommy after here can we go down the street to the candy store or to get ice cream?" "Sure Suzy and Billy, but just be careful and step over the convulsing homeless people." 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on October 22, 2015, 08:37:26 am
Yea this kind of thing is great for retail business, especially for one that has a large portion of its sales being children's toys and books.  "Mommy mommy after here can we go down the street to the candy store or to get ice cream?" "Sure Suzy and Billy, but just be careful and step over the convulsing homeless people." 

Oh yeah...just like in Bedford Falls.  This is Hollywood stuff, kids.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 22, 2015, 11:02:23 am
An undisclosed location in the PNW, and I have the coordinates for all of the old Atlas, Titan, Minuteman Missile sites and the old DEW Line Stations from the Aleutian Islands to Nova Scotia along the northern border of Canada.

We need to get together......!!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on October 22, 2015, 11:19:01 am
Not a good PR week for Iron Gate that will help sooth the concerns of those in the next neighborhood they target to build/move.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 22, 2015, 11:54:48 am
Or PSO either. If they would just convulse somewhere more, well, out of public site or suburban or something.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 22, 2015, 12:01:23 pm
We need to get together......!!


Sure, just meet me here..........

https://www.google.com/maps/@61.5967438,-64.6388295,869m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@61.5967438,-64.6388295,869m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: carltonplace on October 22, 2015, 12:41:33 pm
Or PSO either. If they would just convulse somewhere more, well, out of public site or suburban or something.

Public convulsing...it's so untoward.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on October 22, 2015, 12:52:21 pm
Public convulsing...it's so untoward.

Fitting shirt for some Tulsa Now'rs, "Keep Tulsa Convulsing, In Private"


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: carltonplace on October 22, 2015, 01:06:52 pm
I'm on a roll.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 23, 2015, 08:48:15 am
Its odd isn't it? Dozens of people fall to the ground convulsing, flailing, and requiring medical attention and our response is ..."not so good for downtown PR or retail bidness" instead of genuine concern for an assault perpetrated by drug dealers that may extend to all over town.

Of course when you see the same thing on a Friday night around 1am next to a string of bars in Brady? That's just the nature of adult partying. The difference being few people see the staggering drunks at that time of morning and its old news to the press unless one dies.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on October 23, 2015, 11:00:14 am
Its odd isn't it? Dozens of people fall to the ground convulsing, flailing, and requiring medical attention and our response is ..."not so good for downtown PR or retail bidness" instead of genuine concern for an assault perpetrated by drug dealers that may extend to all over town.

Of course when you see the same thing on a Friday night around 1am next to a string of bars in Brady? That's just the nature of adult partying. The difference being few people see the staggering drunks at that time of morning and its old news to the press unless one dies.

I think you are taking this discussion unfairly out of the context of the thread. 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on October 23, 2015, 11:09:16 am
Its odd isn't it? Dozens of people fall to the ground convulsing, flailing, and requiring medical attention and our response is ..."not so good for downtown PR or retail bidness" instead of genuine concern for an assault perpetrated by drug dealers that may extend to all over town.

Of course when you see the same thing on a Friday night around 1am next to a string of bars in Brady? That's just the nature of adult partying. The difference being few people see the staggering drunks at that time of morning and its old news to the press unless one dies.


I wasn't there.  I didn't see any of this.  I have no idea what actually happened.

I've been in the businesses in the area.  I support the survival of the businesses in the area.

I have a tough time transferring my concerns to people having a physical reaction to a drug they took.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DowntownDan on October 23, 2015, 11:19:36 am
The part that bothers me is the idea that the tracks at 3rd and Peoria is some sort of urban mecca that would be destroyed if you let poor folks in.  If this had happened at 3rd and Peoria it would not have harmed what's going on at 6th or 11th street.  You think that the Vault, or Elote, or Tavolo, or the Courtyard, or the Daily Grill are going to suffer because of what happened at the current location?  Don't think so.  The idea that we need to isolate poor people to the area downtown by the jail is what bothers me about this whole situation.  


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 23, 2015, 11:19:54 am
Its odd isn't it? Dozens of people fall to the ground convulsing, flailing, and requiring medical attention and our response is ..."not so good for downtown PR or retail bidness" instead of genuine concern for an assault perpetrated by drug dealers that may extend to all over town.

Of course when you see the same thing on a Friday night around 1am next to a string of bars in Brady? That's just the nature of adult partying. The difference being few people see the staggering drunks at that time of morning and its old news to the press unless one dies.



Thats not even remotely close to reality.....


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on October 23, 2015, 11:51:46 am
The part that bothers me is the idea that the tracks at 3rd and Peoria is some sort of urban mecca that would be destroyed if you let poor folks in.  If this had happened at 3rd and Peoria it would not have harmed what's going on at 6th or 11th street.  You think that the Vault, or Elote, or Tavolo, or the Courtyard, or the Daily Grill are going to suffer because of what happened at the current location?  Don't think so.  The idea that we need to isolate poor people to the area downtown by the jail is what bothers me about this whole situation.  

Ill have to dig for the references, but I believe the stated intention was something along the lines of  "placing social services closer to the people who need them"


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on October 23, 2015, 12:12:57 pm
Ill have to dig for the references, but I believe the stated intention was something along the lines of  "placing social services closer to the people who need them"

Correct.

The question  shouldn't be on where to choose a location for people to be convulsing on sidewalks, but how to keep that from happening at all.

1, we need to provide judgement free housing to the homeless, 2, we need to have social services easily available to the residents of that housing that do things like help them get clean. We should try to prevent the OD, and failing that, have the OD happen in a safer location for the victim than a sidewalk.




Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 23, 2015, 12:27:40 pm
Correct.

The question  shouldn't be on where to choose a location for people to be convulsing on sidewalks, but how to keep that from happening at all.

1, we need to provide judgement free housing to the homeless, 2, we need to have social services easily available to the residents of that housing that do things like help them get clean. We should try to prevent the OD, and failing that, have the OD happen in a safer location for the victim than a sidewalk.




Did we just come full circle here....?

If there are people who won't make use of the currently available resources, how are we to get them to make use of other (new) available resources?

Will it be a forced situation?  Like a jail sentence equivalent for being homeless?

By judgement free, is it meant there are no rules/regulations/behavioral requirements to living there?  And if there are rules, isn't that kinda the whole point of why they don't make use of the currently available resources (that do have rules) ??





Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 23, 2015, 12:34:23 pm
Well Townsend, I have been there. Experienced the sight of passed out people in Brady, spewing their guts onto the street, peeing on buildings, acting a fool, stumbling in high heels till they collapsed and rambling incoherently. Both from alcohol and/or drugs. Neither group started out wanting to get sloppy drunk or OD'd. They just wanted to have a little fun or escape the dreary reality of their lives. Make note, It is just as illegal to be public drunk or urinate in public as it is to be OD'd and convulsing.

I drove a party bus throughout the Brady, East End, Brookside, Cherry and the suburbs. It was fun. Fun to watch anyway. Just reporting the facts. You folks are making the judgments.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on October 23, 2015, 01:18:03 pm
Well Townsend, I have been there. Experienced the sight of passed out people in Brady, spewing their guts onto the street, peeing on buildings, acting a fool, stumbling in high heels till they collapsed and rambling incoherently. Both from alcohol and/or drugs. Neither group started out wanting to get sloppy drunk or OD'd. They just wanted to have a little fun or escape the dreary reality of their lives. Make note, It is just as illegal to be public drunk or urinate in public as it is to be OD'd and convulsing.

I drove a party bus throughout the Brady, East End, Brookside, Cherry and the suburbs. It was fun. Fun to watch anyway. Just reporting the facts. You folks are making the judgments.



I was talking about this particular occurrence.  Were you there?

I've seen the same things you've seen.

Aquaman - You need to get off your high horse and relax on this a bit.  I've made no judgement.  I've only said what I thought.  I'd rather things like this didn't occur.

Railing on me for this is crap and you need to back the hell off.




Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 23, 2015, 01:45:16 pm

Did we just come full circle here....?

If there are people who won't make use of the currently available resources, how are we to get them to make use of other (new) available resources?

Will it be a forced situation?  Like a jail sentence equivalent for being homeless?

By judgement free, is it meant there are no rules/regulations/behavioral requirements to living there?  And if there are rules, isn't that kinda the whole point of why they don't make use of the currently available resources (that do have rules) ??


It is not forced. The rules are pretty basic and they don't have to quit drugs/drinking to get a home. The idea is a home precedes being able to get sober and become a part of society. One article said ""There are a few 'trappers and hunters' out there who really do choose what they call freedom." but for about 85% percent stick with it. There are still plenty of problems, but having them out in the streets just makes it worse (like the story which got this discussion going).

Utah has cut chronic homelessness by 91%! Furthermore, it actually saves money. The $8000/year they spend on housing is partially paid by section 8 and partially paid by charities. The burden on the system is lowered and the big savings are in healthcare/emergency response costs. Jail is another large cost.
 
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all)

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah)

Cities in the US need to do something about this. After the success Utah has had, I think Tulsa needs to follow suit. It is a proven model at this point after ~10+ years. Tulsa has just over 700 homeless. Based on the amount donated to homeless charities, providing housing would be feasible, especially considering section 8 vouchers and other grants available for this type of thing. If anyone knows of any organization pursuing this sort of thing in Tulsa, please let me know.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 23, 2015, 01:54:15 pm
It is not forced. The rules are pretty basic and they don't have to quit drugs/drinking to get a home. The idea is a home precedes being able to get sober and become a part of society. One article said ""There are a few 'trappers and hunters' out there who really do choose what they call freedom." but for about 85% percent stick with it. There are still plenty of problems, but having them out in the streets just makes it worse (like the story which got this discussion going).

Utah has cut chronic homelessness by 91%! Furthermore, it actually saves money. The $8000/year they spend on housing is partially paid by section 8 and partially paid by charities. The burden on the system is lowered and the big savings are in healthcare/emergency response costs. Jail is another large cost.
 
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865627447/Chronic-homelessness-in-Utah-down-91-percent-under-decade-long-Housing-First-initiative.html?pg=all)

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah)

Cities in the US need to do something about this. After the success Utah has had, I think Tulsa needs to follow suit. It is a proven model at this point after ~10+ years. Tulsa has just over 700 homeless. Based on the amount donated to homeless charities, providing housing would be feasible, especially considering section 8 vouchers and other grants available for this type of thing. If anyone knows of any organization pursuing this sort of thing in Tulsa, please let me know.



Don't get me wrong - I am all about trying something different, 'cause what we are doing now ain't working.  Hasn't been for at least as long as I have been alive. Just like the whole war on drugs thing - that ain't working either, and it is closely connected to the homeless situation in many instances.  We need to start trying something beyond just giving tax cuts to rich people and fighting the wrong wars!!  (War on drugs in this case....)




Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 23, 2015, 05:36:04 pm


I was talking about this particular occurrence.  Were you there?

I've seen the same things you've seen.

Aquaman - You need to get off your high horse and relax on this a bit.  I've made no judgement.  I've only said what I thought.  I'd rather things like this didn't occur.

Railing on me for this is crap and you need to back the hell off.




Chill. I used words from several posts that caught my attention. I used your name because it was the latest one. Often folks don't reply if you don't do that. And though I am intrigued that someone thought I changed direction of this thread it hardly fits. I just responded with the truth I see and followed the drift.

I am not on any crusade, just noting how bizarre it is that this entire thread ignores the fact that drug abuse, alcohol abuse, beggars and homelessness are a city wide plague, not associated with any one organization or location. To not admit that is indication of other motives. Or that it can be controlled by limiting those who offer them assistance.

This is weird. Both K-2 and rum with pirates on the label are legal drugs with similar outcomes when carelessly used. Available at retail establishments. Yet the idiots passed out from K-2 are referred to as OD's while the others are just partiers. I doubt the K-2 users knew they were overusing their drug. What instructions indicated proper usage?  Open, snort or smoke, pass out? Seems a great legal case for going after the manufacturer and convenience stores offering it (one I know of sells it near a grade school).

Be honest. No judgments being made? Seriously, when dozens of people pass out in Brady no one says they OD'd on alcohol. 28 people pass out on the street from some drug use and suddenly Iron Gate gets the bad PR. How about we castigate PSO since some happened there? 

Yet the discussion here is about what kinds of people Iron Gate attracts, not what kinds of people Legends attracts and their effect on retail business.

As an older who enjoyed downtown when 30-40,000 people worked there and it was alive with the type of lifestyle we so yearn for now, I assure you there were drunks, beggars, thieves, drug addicts and con men all over the downtown and it didn't affect the business climate whatsoever. Its part of big city life.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 27, 2015, 08:00:25 am
Sad reality:  there is a double standard. And there is a reason for it.

The high-heel wearing drunk vomiting at one in the morning will go home, sober up, and head to work the following Monday. That drunk was at a restaurant earlier in the night, then went to a concert/show/gallery/event, then went to a bar. Pumping hundreds of dollars into the economy and supporting a dozen local businesses. If that drunk gets arrested, breaks something, or ends up in the hospital - the drunk will pay for it with their own money. That drunk is a detriment to commerce in the area for the last 30 minutes of one evening a week/month.

The guy I saw Wednesday afternoon passed out under the bridge next to Caines, and again the same guy passed out in the park near Mexicali Thursday night - wont be sobering up and going home. He didn't kick more than $10 into the local economy (for the liter of Popov he was drinking). If he is arrested or breaks something or ends up in the hospital, he won't pay a dime for it because he doesnt have a dime to pay. That drunk is a detriment to commerce in the area nearly all the time he is there.

It is the same reason New Orleans turns a blind eye to drunk tourists, but hassles drunk panhandlers.  They both may be obnoxious drunks, but the community makes money off of one, and spends money on the other. Frankly, you don't want the one that costs you money running away the one that makes you money.

Not a very nice take on things, but it is reality. Again, I'm happy to discuss ways of address homelessness, social inequality, and addiction treatment. All of those things are not only noble goals for humanity, but economically sound.

However, we need to get away from the idea that homeless people hanging around will be welcomed or that won't be viewed or actually be a detriment to commerce/development. A real detriment or not - the perception is there. Use the perception to fight the underlying problems as best we can (fear is a motivator... if we don't treat addiction, then bad things happen.So fund addiction treatment!).


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: carltonplace on October 27, 2015, 08:49:04 am
Many of the patrons of Irongate drive from their homes to come and get the free breakfest. Not saying they don't need it, just pointing out that Irongate isn't just feeding the homeless.

I don't think their proposed spot at 3rd and Peoria takes their parking needs into account.
By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 27, 2015, 08:57:29 am
Many of the patrons of Irongate drive from their homes to come and get the free breakfest. Not saying they don't need it, just pointing out that Irongate isn't just feeding the homeless.

I don't think their proposed spot at 3rd and Peoria takes their parking needs into account.
By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.

Sounds as if the homeless are already being served at 3rd & Peoria.

I drove past yesterday and the roof on the building looks like it’s toast.  I can’t imagine it’s very dry in that building.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on October 27, 2015, 03:14:01 pm
By the way, there are people squatting in the building that is currently sitting empty at 3rd and Peoria. I can smell them smoking weed when I jog past and they have a bunch of cots and matresses set up.

Well at least it's not zoned for that, because THAT would really drag the neighborhood down.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on October 28, 2015, 08:15:56 am
Well at least it's not zoned for that, because THAT would really drag the neighborhood down.

Too bad the Pearl District didn't get Form Based Code...I'm told by a local real estate attorney Iron Gate would have had no issue moving into the property if the zoning and code had been updated the way the district folks wanted.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on October 28, 2015, 02:56:54 pm
Too bad the Pearl District didn't get Form Based Code...I'm told by a local real estate attorney Iron Gate would have had no issue moving into the property if the zoning and code had been updated the way the district folks wanted.

I also heard they could have zoned commercial, no-one would have known, and construction would have started by now.

TulsaNow and others urged them to be more up front and transparent not realizing that covert and backhanded was the only way to get it built.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on October 29, 2015, 06:29:24 am
I also heard they could have zoned commercial, no-one would have known, and construction would have started by now.

TulsaNow and others urged them to be more up front and transparent not realizing that covert and backhanded was the only way to get it built.

I was among those encouraging my friends on the board to meet with the Pearl District folks about the project.  I was wrong in my impression that the compassion many of those in that area show in their personal lives would spill over into their real estate and business dealings.  Where I was most wrong was in underestimating the resistance that would come from the "East Village" folks.  From what I've gathered the ringleader of the resistance was a business owner inside the IDL.  Never thought that would happen, but you never know.

I think you've stumble on another T-Shirt idea...Tulsa, Covert & Backhanded Is the Only Way.  You should start selling these at Blake Ewing's t-shirt shop.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 29, 2015, 07:14:56 am
I was among those encouraging my friends on the board to meet with the Pearl District folks about the project.  I was wrong in my impression that the compassion many of those in that area show in their personal lives would spill over into their real estate and business dealings.  Where I was most wrong was in underestimating the resistance that would come from the "East Village" folks.  From what I've gathered the ringleader of the resistance was a business owner inside the IDL.  Never thought that would happen, but you never know.

I think you've stumble on another T-Shirt idea...Tulsa, Covert & Backhanded Is the Only Way.  You should start selling these at Blake Ewing's t-shirt shop.

Blake Ewing was very vocal in supporting Iron Gate's decision to move there. During the city counsel meeting, he showed full support.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rdj on October 29, 2015, 08:15:03 am
Blake Ewing was very vocal in supporting Iron Gate's decision to move there. During the city counsel meeting, he showed full support.


I don't mean Blake...although he is a compassionate fellow from what I know.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on October 29, 2015, 11:18:24 am
Too bad the Pearl District didn't get Form Based Code...I'm told by a local real estate attorney Iron Gate would have had no issue moving into the property if the zoning and code had been updated the way the district folks wanted.

Much like the county wanted to slip a juvenile jail in the middle of a northside commercial rejuvenation plan?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: sgrizzle on October 29, 2015, 03:39:02 pm
Much like the county wanted to slip a juvenile jail in the middle of a northside commercial rejuvenation plan?

Injecting a young workforce


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Vision 2025 on October 30, 2015, 11:58:37 am
Much like the county wanted to slip a juvenile jail in the middle of a northside commercial rejuvenation plan?
You mean by bringing professional employment to the area? 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on October 30, 2015, 12:34:40 pm
You mean by bringing professional employment to the area? 

"Jailer" is professional employment?  Oh, I forgot about Jail Cook and Jail Nurse and the guy that keeps the $5/minute phone system running.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Vision 2025 on October 30, 2015, 01:29:33 pm
"Jailer" is professional employment?  Oh, I forgot about Jail Cook and Jail Nurse and the guy that keeps the $5/minute phone system running.
What jailers, Juvenile is not a Jail it is a small short term detention facility, an office building, a school and a court house.  For employment, let's try multiple Judges, Attorneys, Law Clerks, Teachers, Therapists, a few Deputies and yes a cook or two.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 30, 2015, 05:25:38 pm
Right. Those judges, attorneys, law clerks and teachers are going to move into the neighborhoods and help upgrade the community. Like they did the Gilcrease facility.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: swake on October 30, 2015, 05:31:33 pm
Right. Those judges, attorneys, law clerks and teachers are going to move into the neighborhoods and help upgrade the community. Like they did the Gilcrease facility.

If it was located at the Storey Wrecker site they might live in Brady or Brady Heights.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 31, 2015, 09:51:24 am
True enough.

There are professionals in north and west Tulsa. Moton clinic, OU med services, OSU has a presence, lots of lawyers, doctors, teachers and middle level bureaucrats with professional jobs. Of course its not Jenks or Owasso but they make do. ;)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 29, 2016, 03:09:30 pm
Believe it or not, it has been almost a year since we last heard any updates about this:

Quote
Iron Gate officials eyeing new location downtown

Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2016 2:11 pm
By Mike Averill Tulsa World | 0 comments
Officials with Iron Gate say they have found “the perfect site” to build a new soup kitchen and emergency grocery pantry.
The agency, which is currently housed at Trinity Episcopal Church, is looking at a 1.5-acre spot between Seventh and Eighth streets and Elgin and Kenosha avenues in downtown Tulsa to build a new location that would house the soup kitchen, pantry and administrative offices.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-officials-eyeing-new-location-downtown/article_c0664b07-7f96-579b-8d87-df654eb002e4.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-officials-eyeing-new-location-downtown/article_c0664b07-7f96-579b-8d87-df654eb002e4.html)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/36%C2%B009'04.0%22N+95%C2%B058'59.3%22W/@36.1511213,-95.9837997,18z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d36.15112!4d-95.983149 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/36%C2%B009'04.0%22N+95%C2%B058'59.3%22W/@36.1511213,-95.9837997,18z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d36.15112!4d-95.983149)

You could argue that this could even be a worse placement for this than the previous spot. 3rd and Peoria still has nothing of note right there even though there quite a bit of businesses/development in the general vicinity. It looks like this spot will be just south of the Nordam development. It will be on the same block as the Crossfit and the Broadway (venue?) across from Home Depot. Not the worst placement but will make the Nordam development a tougher sell on this side unless they have the rights to close off that street and make it a gated community (which I doubt).


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on September 29, 2016, 04:01:49 pm
There's never a good spot for a homeless shelter, but the wealthier the area the better if we are looking to address the problem at hand.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on September 29, 2016, 05:33:54 pm


Not the worst placement but will make the Nordam development a tougher sell on this side unless they have the rights to close off that street and make it a gated community (which I doubt).
 

Kenosha and Lansing between 4th & 6th are private streets, as are both 5th Street & 5th Place between Kenosha and Lansing.  The streets have been private for many years.  The developers could close, gate, and/or remove those streets, if they wish.  Much of 5th between Frankfort and Kenosha already has been closed and removed for decades, as has the entire 400 block of South Greenwood.

Google Maps "Street View" looking northwest from "5th & Greenwood" (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1539317,-95.9830098,3a,90y,295.72h,86.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_Zl-B8PkUgXi4nS9WeLNoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (although there are no actual streets at that "intersection" anymore, and haven't been for a very long time)
  


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: LeGenDz on October 19, 2016, 05:10:36 pm
Just seen on the news that Iron Gate is trying to build on 7th and Kenosha/Elgin now.. ???

http://www.fox23.com/news/iron-gate-plans-new-location/458662530


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: saintnicster on October 20, 2016, 08:49:25 am
Just seen on the news that Iron Gate is trying to build on 7th and Kenosha/Elgin now.. ???

http://www.fox23.com/news/iron-gate-plans-new-location/458662530

That's what TulsaGoldenHurriCAN last posted


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 20, 2016, 06:53:35 pm
Just seen on the news that Iron Gate is trying to build on 7th and Kenosha/Elgin now.. ???

http://www.fox23.com/news/iron-gate-plans-new-location/458662530

They will need to slow 7th traffic down if so.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: PonderInc on October 22, 2016, 07:36:09 am
So amusing that the DCC and downtown developers who fought so hard against overlays ("How DARE you try to take away my god-given property rights!") ("Downtown is so valuable because there are no rules limiting what you can build...") will now be the ones fighting this development.

Oh, so you only want to avoid regulations that apply to you... but you're pretty happy to regulate others. Hmmmmm. What's that word? Oh yeah, hypocrites.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: johrasephoenix on October 22, 2016, 12:23:00 pm
It's gotta go somewhere and the current location at Trinity isn't ideal.  Currently its right in the heart of the Deco District next to the soon-to-be-renovated Tulsa Club and way too small so long lines form.  A bigger space and they could bring it all internal which greatly reduces some of the negative impact on surrounding property people associate with Iron Gate.

That proposed spot doesn't seem bad.  It's out of the way and there's nothing currently there.  Market rate development would be challenging because its pretty far from the activity centers and right next to the two highway ramps. 

I do think an even better option would be the western side of downtown over by the IDL and Heavy Traffic Way.  There's nothing over there except some light industry so no consumer-oriented businesses would be pissed off.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: SXSW on October 22, 2016, 01:06:47 pm
Agree re: the west side by Heavy Traffic Way/Lawton Ave. if you really wanted it out-of-the-way.  But this location isn't bad hopefully the design prevents lines of hungry homeless forming down 7th and scaring away suburbanites coming into downtown.   ;)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Breadburner on October 22, 2016, 11:34:39 pm
Turley would be a good place...


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on October 23, 2016, 09:20:47 pm


Currently [Iron Gate is] right in the heart of the Deco District next to the soon-to-be-renovated Tulsa Club...


Trinity Episcopal is not in the Deco District.  Currently, Iron Gate is not in the Deco District.  The current location is east of the Deco District.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 23, 2016, 09:24:52 pm
Trinity Episcopal is not in the Deco District.  Currently, Iron Gate is not in the Deco District.  The current location is east of the Deco District.



Literally right across the street.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on October 23, 2016, 10:24:36 pm


Literally right across the street.
 

True.  The Tulsa Club Building is literally on the eastern edge of the Deco District.  Iron Gate is not right in the heart of the Deco District.  Iron Gate is not in the Deco District at all.

Literally and figuratively, the heart of the Deco District is somewhere within the Deco District, in my opinion.

Iron Gate's current location could be described as "near the heart of the Deco District." 

Map from Deco District's website:
(http://decodistricttulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/bokcenterparkingmap2.jpg)
   


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DowntownDan on October 24, 2016, 07:33:30 am
The Pearl District location was ideal.  If it can't go up there they'll never be allowed to do their work.  NIMBY often wins.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 24, 2016, 08:12:41 am
True.  The Tulsa Club Building is literally on the eastern edge of the Deco District.  Iron Gate is not right in the heart of the Deco District.  Iron Gate is not in the Deco District at all.

Literally and figuratively, the heart of the Deco District is somewhere within the Deco District, in my opinion.

Iron Gate's current location could be described as "near the heart of the Deco District." 

Map from Deco District's website:
(http://decodistricttulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/bokcenterparkingmap2.jpg)
   

Bartlett Square is the heart. It for sure is a part of the Deco community. I honestly don't mind Iron Gate at all, I'll guarantee you that our merchants understand the issues and good more than other areas of town. The longer I'm there, the more accepting I become. It's weird how things change when you put a face to it.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on October 24, 2016, 07:22:54 pm


So amusing that the DCC and downtown developers who fought so hard against overlays ("How DARE you try to take away my god-given property rights!") ("Downtown is so valuable because there are no rules limiting what you can build...") will now be the ones fighting this development.


October 24, 2016 Tulsa World article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/iron-gate-again-faces-opposition-to-proposed-relocation/article_8baaa52e-bff1-55ef-bd8e-52b4f9ed8be7.html)

Here's a bit of rationalization which doesn't make much sense to me:

Quote

The property now proposed for Iron Gate sits between multilane, one-way streets that provide highway access into and out of downtown.


True, but the current Iron Gate location sits between multilane, one-way streets that provide highway access into and out of downtown (Cincinnati and Detroit).

As I understand it, Iron Gate is constrained by limited interior space, not by adjacent one-way streets.  According to INCOG's traffic count map (https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=710c9600be594232870b64f1ed4d11e7), 7th Street, near Frankfort, averages 12,900 vehicles per day.  8th Street, between Elgin and Kenosha, averages 9,900 vehicles per day.

A few months ago, Iron Gate was proposing a move to 3rd and Peoria.  The average daily traffic (ADT) count on Peoria between 3rd & 4th is 10,200.

The Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr Boulevard's ADT count, between Archer and Mathew B Reconciliation Way, is 9,800. 
Cincinnati Ave, south of 13th Street, has an ADT count of 9,600.
Detroit Avenue's ADT between Archer and Mathew B Reconciliation Way is 9,300.  It's 7,100 just south of 13th Street. 

Quote

Another concern is that the proposed site is in an area that [owner of two nearby buildings Don] Maynard said was intended to be primarily residential.


I don't think the area was intended to be primarily residential.  If so, when?  Areas that are intended to be primarily residential are usually zoned for primarily residential development -- otherwise known as the "R" districts.

The area is intended to be used primarily for business activities.  That's why it's zoned as Tulsa's central business district (CBD).  I'd like to see more residential development downtown, but the site is zoned for commercial development, and it has been for decades.  Some types of residential uses, such as townhouses, apartments, and rooming/boarding houses, are allowed by right in the CBD.  Several other types of residential uses are allowed by special exception.

Other than the Coliseum Apartments, what residential developments are adjacent to the proposed Iron Gate property?
   


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 24, 2016, 08:11:07 pm
Turley would be a good place...

Actually, right where you can see people waiting in line for food is best. That's how you get change.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on October 25, 2016, 05:33:22 pm

It seems as though the case will be heading to district court, as three members of the Board of Adjustment are recusing themselves.

October 25, 2016 Tulsa World article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/iron-gate-s-relocation-plan-appears-destined-for-district-court/article_b5abab50-0e03-5a98-9199-0a63a6431893.html)



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 25, 2016, 07:28:01 pm
So the location of where homeless people are fed is moved literally two to three blocks and everyone who has opposed any sort of oversight on their own development loses their sh!t? 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 25, 2016, 08:58:13 pm
So the location of where homeless people are fed is moved literally two to three blocks and everyone who has opposed any sort of oversight on their own development loses their sh!t? 

Essentially.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 26, 2016, 08:17:24 am
So the location of where homeless people are fed is moved literally two to three blocks and everyone who has opposed any sort of oversight on their own development loses their sh!t? 

Not everyone, but some people. While I do chuckle at their hypocrisy, I can't blame the NIMBYism.

"Now that they've put that soup kitchen in, my apartments have all been leased, my commercial space leased out, foot traffic for retail shoppers is up, and it has doubled the property value in the neighborhood," said no one ever.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 26, 2016, 08:21:08 am
Not everyone, but some people. While I do chuckle at their hypocrisy, I can't blame the NIMBYism.

"Now that they've put that soup kitchen in, my apartments have all been leased, my commercial space leased out, foot traffic for retail shoppers is up, and it has doubled the property value in the neighborhood," said no one ever.

The soup kitchen already exists in their neighborhood and people transit that area every day going to and from Iron Gate.  It’s already in their back yard.  That’s what lit me up about this. 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 26, 2016, 08:55:53 am
The soup kitchen already exists in their neighborhood and people transit that area every day going to and from Iron Gate.  It’s already in their back yard.  That’s what lit me up about this. 

It is in the same general area, yes. But just down the street and immediately between two buildings I own are two different things (I don't personally own those buildings, just an example). Particularly downtown, a few blocks away can make a huge difference (the difference between 2nd and Elgin and 1st and Lanson is probably $2mil per acre). I live near 31st and Harvard. I am near the payday loan place at that intersection. Just a blocks away. If they wanted to move right next door to me, it would be a significant change to me. I'm also a few blocks away from a tattoo parlor, a bar, a mechanics shop, etc. etc. etc.

Most of the commute to Iron Gate is coming from the homeless shelters around David L Moss, a few from other soup kitchens north and west of Iron Gate. Little, if any of the foot traffic to Iron Gate would currently go by this area. And few, if any, vagrants currently loiter around it. Iron Gate, where it now stands, has minimal impact on Elliot Nelsons new apartments, the new corporate HQ, or the planned development of the Nordam site. If you owned a stake in any of those, would you want a soup kitchen to move closer to you? Note, not a lot of new development is going in near the soup kitchens Brady.

I'm not arguing the merits of the placement and I'm certainly not criticizing the intent of Iron Gate - but if I lived, worked, or owned property at a location that was putting in a soup kitchen I would assume it would be a negative for the area.  Iron Gate will do all they can to mitigate it, and it might be fine. But I can't blame the stakeholders for being nervous.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 26, 2016, 09:53:26 am
It is in the same general area, yes. But just down the street and immediately between two buildings I own are two different things (I don't personally own those buildings, just an example). Particularly downtown, a few blocks away can make a huge difference (the difference between 2nd and Elgin and 1st and Lanson is probably $2mil per acre). I live near 31st and Harvard. I am near the payday loan place at that intersection. Just a blocks away. If they wanted to move right next door to me, it would be a significant change to me. I'm also a few blocks away from a tattoo parlor, a bar, a mechanics shop, etc. etc. etc.

Most of the commute to Iron Gate is coming from the homeless shelters around David L Moss, a few from other soup kitchens north and west of Iron Gate. Little, if any of the foot traffic to Iron Gate would currently go by this area. And few, if any, vagrants currently loiter around it. Iron Gate, where it now stands, has minimal impact on Elliot Nelsons new apartments, the new corporate HQ, or the planned development of the Nordam site. If you owned a stake in any of those, would you want a soup kitchen to move closer to you? Note, not a lot of new development is going in near the soup kitchens Brady.

I'm not arguing the merits of the placement and I'm certainly not criticizing the intent of Iron Gate - but if I lived, worked, or owned property at a location that was putting in a soup kitchen I would assume it would be a negative for the area.  Iron Gate will do all they can to mitigate it, and it might be fine. But I can't blame the stakeholders for being nervous.

Homeless people walk up and down Elgin every day looking for day work from people loading out building materials at Home Depot.  So yes, they are already in the immediate area of the proposed location every day.  Iron Gate’s existing location has not stopped anyone from investing in renovations in the immediate area nor along the corridor from the DL Moss, Day Center, bus station etc. that homeless travel by every day going to and from Iron Gate.  The present location also does not seem to have been a detriment to Ross Group wanting to renovate the Tulsa Club Building.

If anyone recalls, it was predicted the transitional living center at Admiral and Yale would be a detriment to nearby neighborhoods.  I’ve personally heard of no problems with the tenants.  Is it ideal to build a high end apartment complex or an upscale retail development adjacent to a soup kitchen?  Probably not.  I’m simply choking on the hypocrisy of developers who didn’t want an overlay to dictate what they could do with their property and it appears some of those developers want to tell people behind another fully funded development they can’t build near them. 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 26, 2016, 10:28:22 am
Pretty hard to escape transients within the IDL. It seems they are multiplying and expanding all over the city though. Even at 51st and Lewis in a huge intersection with multiple turn lanes and no really good mooching, I watched as a guy walked in and out of traffic with his story. Almost got hit twice.

No business or homeowner wants to be around them, but the reality is they are here and not going anywhere till the economy or treatment centers expand along with them. Or until the Gathering Place opens up.  ;D


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 26, 2016, 11:12:57 am
I cant' argue with anything you say Conan - but the point still stands: the vast majority of business owners, developer, customer, tenant, etc. do not want a soup kitchen to move next door to them. It's hard to think what a soup kitchen next to my office would do that benefits me or my clients. Hard to think what a soup kitchen next to my apartment would do to benefit me. Hard to imagine any property value going up because a soup kitchen moves next door.

Hence, NIMBY.

Not saying its right, just that it is.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on October 26, 2016, 12:41:21 pm
Pretty hard to escape transients within the IDL. It seems they are multiplying and expanding all over the city though. Even at 51st and Lewis in a huge intersection with multiple turn lanes and no really good mooching, I watched as a guy walked in and out of traffic with his story. Almost got hit twice.

No business or homeowner wants to be around them, but the reality is they are here and not going anywhere till the economy or treatment centers expand along with them. Or until the Gathering Place opens up.  ;D

There will always be homeless people. Always. Even in Utah where they are giving homes away with no requirement to quit drugs or alcohol, they still have homeless. Some just want zero rules. Others just cannot function on the most basic of level. A very small fraction want to live the survivalist lifestyle. Utah did however eliminate most chronic homelessness which is great and actually saves society a lot of money.

The economy is, according to Clinton and Obama, doing great and the DJIA is near it's all-time high a couple months ago. They say we've had half a decade of growth and less living under poverty now. If that is true, maybe this is as good as homelessness gets so I disagree that the number of needy will ever get much better.

Better Box Project in Tulsa is mimicking the Utah program to provide free housing for homeless but even after that, there will always be some. Hopefully people can realize the benefits of providing housing first without drug/alcohol mandates. They will mostly still be needy and utilize places like Iron Gate, but at least they will have a home and not be wandering around committing crimes and scaring people.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 26, 2016, 01:14:59 pm
Hard to think what a soup kitchen next to my apartment would do to benefit me.

Free meals?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 26, 2016, 01:42:30 pm
Free meals?

No such thing.  ;)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on October 26, 2016, 07:01:05 pm


Iron Gate’s existing location has not stopped anyone from investing in renovations in the immediate area...
 

I've heard that Iron Gate was a negative for the developers trying to promote the 119 Downtown project (http://www.3dreamstudios.com/~c3dreams/hosted_websites/119/) a few years ago.  But I think their biggest obstacle was finding buyers at the high asking prices, not the proximity to Iron Gate.

To me, it seems as though there has been substantial development near Iron Gate:

Vandever Lofts - 1.75 blocks from Iron Gate
The Meridia in the Enterprise Building - 1.67 blocks from Iron Gate
Mid-Continent Tower - 1.53 blocks from Iron Gate
The Vault - 1.43 blocks from Iron Gate
Courtyard by Marriott in the Atlas Life Building - 1.39 blocks from Iron Gate
Philtower Lofts - 1.24 blocks from Iron Gate
Philcade Expansion - 1.07 blocks from Iron Gate

The Coliseum Apartments building is 2.40 blocks from the existing Iron Gate location and 0.90 block from the proposed location (1.50 blocks closer to the proposed location).
Jackson Technical HQ building is 2.27 blocks from the existing Iron Gate location and 1.19 blocks from the proposed location (1.08 blocks closer to the proposed location).

The existing Iron Gate location is 3.33 blocks from the proposed location.
 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 26, 2016, 07:20:43 pm
A community is only as strong as its most vulnerable citizens.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: johrasephoenix on October 26, 2016, 10:19:18 pm
As for 119 Downtown... the market has CLEARLY signaled that we're not ready for pricey downtown condos. It has also signaled that their is insatiable demand for quality downtown apartments.  Why do people keep trying to force condos?  That's the frailest part of any real estate market.  Plus American Resodential and River City clearly aren't losing money on apartments. I understand financing is easier if you prese but it's clearly not happening. Downtown just isn't ready yet for people to pre purchase downtown housing, especially at those insane price points. 

I understand why condos are necessary in Places like Boston and NYC where crazy land values make them the only feasible development project. But Tulsa is not at that point and hopefully never will be


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DowntownDan on October 27, 2016, 07:16:40 am
Pretty hard to escape transients within the IDL. It seems they are multiplying and expanding all over the city though. Even at 51st and Lewis in a huge intersection with multiple turn lanes and no really good mooching, I watched as a guy walked in and out of traffic with his story. Almost got hit twice.

No business or homeowner wants to be around them, but the reality is they are here and not going anywhere till the economy or treatment centers expand along with them. Or until the Gathering Place opens up.  ;D

It's called living in a city.  If you want complete isolation from homeless, move to an affluent suburb in a big city that shields its citizens from reality.  Otherwise, this is life.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 27, 2016, 10:12:31 am
It's called living in a city.  If you want complete isolation from homeless, move to an affluent suburb in a big city that shields its citizens from reality.  Otherwise, this is life.

Absolutely. And its not a totally bad thing either to see life different than your own occasionally. Nothing is more fearful to me than walled in, antiseptic looking developments where all the roofs are the same and the only pecking order is determined by how many garage doors you have!

We could lessen the impact of an Oklahoma style recession (cycling oil, moralistic leaders, poor education outcomes) by investing in treatments centers, rehabilitation centers etc. But we are too scared that it is just their own lack of ambition and will power that put them on the streets rather than victims of economic climate change. So, it is life in Oklahoma.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 27, 2016, 10:57:03 am
Absolutely. And its not a totally bad thing either to see life different than your own occasionally. Nothing is more fearful to me than walled in, antiseptic looking developments where all the roofs are the same and the only pecking order is determined by how many garage doors you have!

We could lessen the impact of an Oklahoma style recession (cycling oil, moralistic leaders, poor education outcomes) by investing in treatments centers, rehabilitation centers etc. But we are too scared that it is just their own lack of ambition and will power that put them on the streets rather than victims of economic climate change. So, it is life in Oklahoma.

Actually, the bigger issue is that just like the NIMBY principle, you have the NOOMP (not out of my pocket) thinking as well. Everybody wants better treatment facilities for the homeless and the mentally ill, but no one wants to pay for it with out of pocket/tax funds and expects the gov't to take care of it. The last time they did there was such an uproar, deservedly so, because of the shabby, criminal and inhumane negligence at the facilities the public demanded reform, and the gov't just pulled the plug.

To get some of these people help, you have to get a court order and make sure you're not violating their civil rights, and basically with the lack of funds it's just a revolving door of sending them in and giving them the minimum level and sending them back out. (wash/rinse,/repeat, wash/rinse/repeat)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 27, 2016, 11:34:18 am
Actually, the bigger issue is that just like the NIMBY principle, you have the NOOMP (not out of my pocket) thinking as well. Everybody wants better treatment facilities for the homeless and the mentally ill, but no one wants to pay for it with out of pocket/tax funds and expects the gov't to take care of it. The last time they did there was such an uproar, deservedly so, because of the shabby, criminal and inhumane negligence at the facilities the public demanded reform, and the gov't just pulled the plug.

To get some of these people help, you have to get a court order and make sure you're not violating their civil rights, and basically with the lack of funds it's just a revolving door of sending them in and giving them the minimum level and sending them back out. (wash/rinse,/repeat, wash/rinse/repeat)

Can't say I disagree. Its a good description of what happened and what's happening. I'd like to see some optimism and some tactics as to what we can do to combat the problem. I don't think we even want to pay for those studies either. Perhaps the Filipino method came from the same process.
 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 27, 2016, 11:52:04 am
Can't say I disagree. Its a good description of what happened and what's happening. I'd like to see some optimism and some tactics as to what we can do to combat the problem. I don't think we even want to pay for those studies either. Perhaps the Filipino method came from the same process.
 


Eugenics.

Soylent Green.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 27, 2016, 11:57:39 am
Carousel.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TheArtist on October 27, 2016, 08:32:35 pm
Quick question... Why do they have to go through the board of adjustments in the first place?  I thought you could put most anything anywhere downtown and thats the way, as Ponder put it, the property owners want it.

As per where it is now versus the new location.  I would rather it move to the new location which is more "away" from my business.

For instance, I would open earlier on Saturdays (Currently open at 10 but had considered 9) but do not for on the times that I have opened early to give it a try, since I am next to 5th street which the Iron Gate is on, there is a lot of negative traffic still happening.  People screaming swear words at the top of their lungs as they walk alone down the street, or fighting with each other, and more of them come into the store at that time and more likely with a friend in tow which I have found leads them to be far more brazen, argumentative, destructive or confrontational.  Even opening around 10 they are still around so I try to keep a low profile and not attract attention.

I really wish we had more mental health services.  Why don't the churches help with that? And where are all the "We want lower taxes and less government doing things" people stepping in to take care of this problem.  We have the low over all taxes so they must now have lots of free money and or time to give to help.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 28, 2016, 08:38:46 am
Quick question... Why do they have to go through the board of adjustments in the first place?  I thought you could put most anything anywhere downtown and thats the way, as Ponder put it, the property owners want it.
A soup kitchen/food pantry or considered "government services" and it is not allowed by right within the CBD. See Tusla Zoning Code 15.020, available here (http://www.tmapc.org/Documents/TulsaZoningCodeAdopted110515.pdf), at page 48. They require a special exception "because of potential adverse affect, but which if as to its relationship to the surrounding area may be permitted." Basically, they are supposed to see "the anticipated impacts of the use on the surrounding area, specifically the abutting businesses." In short, NIMBY applies by law.

That is from the BOA case report, available here:
http://www.cityoftulsa-boa.org/Documents/Agendas/10-25-2016/BOA-22152.pdf

Per the zoning code, they can locate in CO as a matter of right, or nearly anywhere else by special exception. I couldn't point to one place in Tulsa that is CO zoning, not sure it really exists yet.




Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 28, 2016, 08:54:01 am


I really wish we had more mental health services.  Why don't the churches help with that? And where are all the "We want lower taxes and less government doing things" people stepping in to take care of this problem.  We have the low over all taxes so they must now have lots of free money and or time to give to help.



Sadly, we probably won't get more.  It is the huge problem that goes across so many lines in our society, affecting literally everyone, but always pushed into a corner to try to not notice.

Many of the churches I see are doing some of what they could be doing.  Too often I see a focus on being the Church "about" Jesus Christ rather than the Church "of" Jesus Christ.  And big TV megachurches.... well, they are what they are....

Salvation Army is the single biggest, most notable exception to this I have found - my preferred organization as I have harped on repeatedly.  (I know there are others because I have friends who talk about their organizations.)  I have attended services a few times and God bless them, but it was soooo boring I couldn't stay awake!  There has to be a 'balance' between message and entertainment...  But the "of" part they do - there is none better!  Anywhere in the world!!

But even SA cannot cover more than a fraction of what is needed.  The hypocrisy behind the Big Lie told by the RWRE - in this case the Right Wing Religious Extremists - is that they really DON'T care about solutions to societal issues.  They want their tax incentives/cuts/breaks.  They want more power/control.  Because IF they were truly behind what they profess about "compassionate conservatism" they would understand (which they do, but don't want to admit) that a governmental entity is the only thing we have in place to address the scope of these kind of problems.  

And it really is even more amazing how much they fight against programs to help with this type of thing AT THE SAME TIME working SOOOOO hard to turn us into a theocracy!!  10 Commandments on the Capital grounds type of thing...  Push their prayers onto all the children in schools....  So, since their church is unable/unwilling to give enough help to make serious improvements now, what will happen when their church IS our government??  Well, the problems will become even worse.



To everyone else, sorry about this thread drift.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 28, 2016, 09:19:08 am
I don't mind your drift. The frustration with the inaction and hypocrisy related to the homeless issue is becoming widespread. The idea of Iron Gate is to feed the hungry without judgment as Jesus instructed. The goal of the Salvation Army is to not only feed them but nurture their souls, show them the way give them structure and shelter.

I met two young men at Guthrie Green Wednesday night from the SA program and was much impressed with their attitude, their ethic and their manners. They are ready to make changes in their lives and are now seeing a different world. It was encouraging. I don't get that impression from those getting food from Iron Gate but they have a different mission. They are like the very first phase of the process.

Perhaps some new leadership in government after this election will start the wheels rolling again.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on October 28, 2016, 02:36:54 pm

Sadly, we probably won't get more.  It is the huge problem that goes across so many lines in our society, affecting literally everyone, but always pushed into a corner to try to not notice.

Many of the churches I see are doing some of what they could be doing.  Too often I see a focus on being the Church "about" Jesus Christ rather than the Church "of" Jesus Christ.  And big TV megachurches.... well, they are what they are....

Salvation Army is the single biggest, most notable exception to this I have found - my preferred organization as I have harped on repeatedly.  (I know there are others because I have friends who talk about their organizations.)  I have attended services a few times and God bless them, but it was soooo boring I couldn't stay awake!  There has to be a 'balance' between message and entertainment...  But the "of" part they do - there is none better!  Anywhere in the world!!

But even SA cannot cover more than a fraction of what is needed.  The hypocrisy behind the Big Lie told by the RWRE - in this case the Right Wing Religious Extremists - is that they really DON'T care about solutions to societal issues.  They want their tax incentives/cuts/breaks.  They want more power/control.  Because IF they were truly behind what they profess about "compassionate conservatism" they would understand (which they do, but don't want to admit) that a governmental entity is the only thing we have in place to address the scope of these kind of problems.  

And it really is even more amazing how much they fight against programs to help with this type of thing AT THE SAME TIME working SOOOOO hard to turn us into a theocracy!!  10 Commandments on the Capital grounds type of thing...  Push their prayers onto all the children in schools....  So, since their church is unable/unwilling to give enough help to make serious improvements now, what will happen when their church IS our government??  Well, the problems will become even worse.



To everyone else, sorry about this thread drift.

It must be nice to live in a world with such clarity and all of society’s ills and failures can be laid at the feet of Republicans, conservatives and Christians, and especially conservative Christian Republicans.

In the past few years I’ve traveled to New York City, Washington DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Las Vegas, and New Orleans and each of those cities has far worse problems of homelessness and mentally ill transients than Tulsa.  Each of those cities is and has been for a long time under Democratic control and are in states lead almost exclusively by Democrats.  It seems to me liberals and Democrats don’t have any more idea how to solve this problem than do Republicans or Christians.

Organizations like Iron Gate do noble work in providing food to the hungry.  Someone stated they do so in a “nonjudgmental way.”  However, there is a fine line between providing food in a nonjudgmental way and enabling the continuation of the dreary and marginalized life so many of these folks live.  Providing food to the hungry is easy, attacking the reasons for the hunger is hard.  Because of this, I don’t begrudge Iron Gate for taking the path it does, but it is also why I support organizations like The Salvation Army and John 3:16 Mission that do more than just provide physical sustenance, but try to change the conditions causing the problem.

As for the location, I think it would be better to locate Iron Gate on the edge of downtown rather than where it is now (if it has to be located downtown).  However, sandwiching it between a highway on and off ramp does not make a lot of sense to me.  This location seems to have a real risk of danger to its clients and a risk of creating significant traffic problems for commuters.




Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 29, 2016, 02:26:36 am
From my own experience living in Phoenix and working with the church that I attended with my ex, while we did things like providing meals near homeless shelters a few times a year, Thanksgiving/Christmas/Valentines and a couple of others, we had no way of providing a leg up to the people we fed. There was fellowship and praying for those that needed help, but other than giving a hot meal, clothes, a spiritual message or feeling, we couldn't do anything else. It made us feel good to make a difference, but it was only a few hours on a very few days and we knew that we couldn't do more.

My ex when she was going to University of Phoenix to get her Bachelor of Business wrote a paper about setting up essentially a recovery center where the homeless could register and get help and have a safe place to stay, to give them  a chance to improve themselves. It was a center that would issue an ID to the person as a resident there, and provide them with an address, help them build a resume, help them clean up for interviews. and give them counseling on personal issues, and help them move forward with their lives. It had strict guidelines that they had to abide by if they truly wanted to move forward, and the places would give them a stable environment to get mail, and have a stable point of contact.

While working with Salvation Army and other types of organizations it would need further funding, and one that I thought of was a progressive tax (yeah, I know, don't tax me for someone else) that could be an extra $150.00/year for those making $50k to $60k a year, and then incrementally above that. The thing is it would have to be a legislation tax without any pork, riders, provisions, exceptions, inclusions, exclusions, by the way, I need, my constituents need, just by chance, oh by the way, crap involved. And as for providing mental and physical health, a required residency of graduates to work with senior doctors as part of their progression.

Am I asking too much? 



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 29, 2016, 09:39:50 am
From my own experience living in Phoenix and working with the church that I attended with my ex, while we did things like providing meals near homeless shelters a few times a year, Thanksgiving/Christmas/Valentines and a couple of others, we had no way of providing a leg up to the people we fed. There was fellowship and praying for those that needed help, but other than giving a hot meal, clothes, a spiritual message or feeling, we couldn't do anything else. It made us feel good to make a difference, but it was only a few hours on a very few days and we knew that we couldn't do more.

My ex when she was going to University of Phoenix to get her Bachelor of Business wrote a paper about setting up essentially a recovery center where the homeless could register and get help and have a safe place to stay, to give them  a chance to improve themselves. It was a center that would issue an ID to the person as a resident there, and provide them with an address, help them build a resume, help them clean up for interviews. and give them counseling on personal issues, and help them move forward with their lives. It had strict guidelines that they had to abide by if they truly wanted to move forward, and the places would give them a stable environment to get mail, and have a stable point of contact.

While working with Salvation Army and other types of organizations it would need further funding, and one that I thought of was a progressive tax (yeah, I know, don't tax me for someone else) that could be an extra $150.00/year for those making $50k to $60k a year, and then incrementally above that. The thing is it would have to be a legislation tax without any pork, riders, provisions, exceptions, inclusions, exclusions, by the way, I need, my constituents need, just by chance, oh by the way, crap involved. And as for providing mental and physical health, a required residency of graduates to work with senior doctors as part of their progression.

Am I asking too much? 



No, you're not. If only we had legislators and a governor who possessed the knowledge and wisdom of posters on this thread. Seriously, your plan seems workable. Salvation Army seems to be on that track, but being non-profit, religious affiliated it by nature cannot achieve what a broader tax funded program could achieve. Perhaps operated by the states instead of the lowly respected Federal govt. I could see a multi religion input being included as long as it was open to any legitimate religion (that is problematic of course). Drugs are doing extreme damage to our nation and ignoring it is going to be very costly.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 31, 2016, 08:25:25 am
It must be nice to live in a world with such clarity and all of society’s ills and failures can be laid at the feet of Republicans, conservatives and Christians, and especially conservative Christian Republicans.

In the past few years I’ve traveled to New York City, Washington DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Las Vegas, and New Orleans and each of those cities has far worse problems of homelessness and mentally ill transients than Tulsa.  Each of those cities is and has been for a long time under Democratic control and are in states lead almost exclusively by Democrats.  It seems to me liberals and Democrats don’t have any more idea how to solve this problem than do Republicans or Christians.

Organizations like Iron Gate do noble work in providing food to the hungry.  Someone stated they do so in a “nonjudgmental way.”  However, there is a fine line between providing food in a nonjudgmental way and enabling the continuation of the dreary and marginalized life so many of these folks live.  Providing food to the hungry is easy, attacking the reasons for the hunger is hard.  Because of this, I don’t begrudge Iron Gate for taking the path it does, but it is also why I support organizations like The Salvation Army and John 3:16 Mission that do more than just provide physical sustenance, but try to change the conditions causing the problem.

As for the location, I think it would be better to locate Iron Gate on the edge of downtown rather than where it is now (if it has to be located downtown).  However, sandwiching it between a highway on and off ramp does not make a lot of sense to me.  This location seems to have a real risk of danger to its clients and a risk of creating significant traffic problems for commuters.





Yeah, it is.  Since it is the RWRE who are actively campaigning the most against these efforts, it IS easy to see and distinguish.  And if you hadn't noticed, the SA is as apolitical as an organization can be given it's major funding sources - which means it is a fairly conservative organization.  And it IS Christian.  Which is more than can be said for many of the RWRE who "wrap themselves in the shroud" and spew their plaintive bleats.  The extremist right wing is neither Christian nor Republican.  And they certainly are not what would be considered 'conservatives' - they are reactionary extremists!  They have taken over what is now the Hijacked Republican Party.  As I have gone on about before.  Dwight Eisenhower was a conservative.  Barry Goldwater was a reactionary extremist.   Page Belcher was a conservative.  Jim Inhofe is a reactionary extremist.  John McCain and Mitt Romney, even with their flaws, are conservatives.  Paul Ryan, Ted Cruz, Trump are reactionary extremists.

As for Dems not having a clue - well I absolutely agree with you there!  The big difference being they are actively trying to do something to fix problems while the extremist right wing is actively trying to do something to make the problems worse.  As can be seen by 40% of the country enamored with Trump.   Which is in direct contradiction to pretty much everything the 'red lettered' section of the Holy Bible has to say....it's a shame some of them don't read some of what the guy they invoke so often actually said....!!  And work harder to try to live by it.

I have NO complaint at all about Iron Gate - anything that people do to try to make other lives better is a good thing.  I am biased toward the Salvation Army and Neighbor for Neighbor due to long associations with both - from the 60's - they are my "go to" charities.  And you wouldn't even be hearing that if we knew each other - Matthew 6.    Doesn't mean I am against the others.  I have not and will probably never be one of their "whales" - not likely to ever be wealthy enough for that, but hey, I might win the lottery sometime -  but try to help any way I can.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 31, 2016, 10:00:33 am
Considering the newest proposed location is so near to Central Park and the Townhomes there, I'm surprised there isn't a tremendous backlash against it. Central Park is my favorite right now because it is so pretty, so unused by outsiders to the area and only slightly attended by homeless. The ones there are pretty considerate and hang near the north side of the park.

But if Iron Gate brings its constituency, I foresee that park starting to look like River parks between 11th and 19th. Which is why I stopped running that area. They were hard core drunks, often stumbling around, arguing with each other, occupying all the good spots and leaving their clothes, beer cans, cigarettes behind them. Proximity to the river hides some of them. God help them, but if given a choice, I see too much of that every day. I just want to run a path and relax in natures beauty.

Please don't judge me, I am just noting reality. Central Park will change.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on October 31, 2016, 11:01:07 am

But if Iron Gate brings its constituency, I foresee that park starting to look like River parks between 11th and 19th. Which is why I stopped running that area. They were hard core drunks, often stumbling around, arguing with each other, occupying all the good spots and leaving their clothes, beer cans, cigarettes behind them. Proximity to the river hides some of them. God help them, but if given a choice, I see too much of that every day. I just want to run a path and relax in natures beauty.

Oh, you are so right on this piece.  I am not sure how/when the momentum started on that section of trail, but it is ridiculous.   Early this Spring it wasn't too bad, but lately it has been overrun.   I bike early in the morning mostly, and multiple times this Summer there people had made campsites in the middle of the bike lanes.  I had to veer over to the running side to go around them.  Even biking, there were a few encounters that were "less than courteous".  I would definitely avoid that area, particularly early and late, if I were a runner.

 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 31, 2016, 12:34:57 pm
Oh, you are so right on this piece.  I am not sure how/when the momentum started on that section of trail, but it is ridiculous.   Early this Spring it wasn't too bad, but lately it has been overrun.   I bike early in the morning mostly, and multiple times this Summer there people had made campsites in the middle of the bike lanes.  I had to veer over to the running side to go around them.  Even biking, there were a few encounters that were "less than courteous".  I would definitely avoid that area, particularly early and late, if I were a runner.

 

I will bring yours and Aqua's concerned up at RPA's user advisory committee meeting tomorrow and see if A) they are aware of a worsening problem and B) what they can/intend to do about it.

I've had near collisions with drunks on the SWB bridge before but not really that bad up to 21st other than all the usual wanderers in the open area around Elwood's.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on October 31, 2016, 12:55:05 pm
I will bring yours and Aqua's concerned up at RPA's user advisory committee meeting tomorrow and see if A) they are aware of a worsening problem and B) what they can/intend to do about it.

I've had near collisions with drunks on the SWB bridge before but not really that bad up to 21st other than all the usual wanderers in the open area around Elwood's.

The ones that gather near Elwoods don't seem to be a problem, except that they sometimes seem to occupy the park area there and that (to me) seems to intrude too much on children's use of that space.   Where I had issues was more up between the bridge and about 15th.  Haven't been through there in 2-3 weeks, but was consistently a hassle for a while in that area.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 31, 2016, 03:13:34 pm
Considering the newest proposed location is so near to Central Park and the Townhomes there, I'm surprised there isn't a tremendous backlash against it. Central Park is my favorite right now because it is so pretty, so unused by outsiders to the area and only slightly attended by homeless. The ones there are pretty considerate and hang near the north side of the park.

But if Iron Gate brings its constituency, I foresee that park starting to look like River parks between 11th and 19th. Which is why I stopped running that area. They were hard core drunks, often stumbling around, arguing with each other, occupying all the good spots and leaving their clothes, beer cans, cigarettes behind them. Proximity to the river hides some of them. God help them, but if given a choice, I see too much of that every day. I just want to run a path and relax in natures beauty.

Please don't judge me, I am just noting reality. Central Park will change.


It's Centennial Park, not Central Park. And there are homeless people there every single day. It's a public park and they have every right to use it.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on October 31, 2016, 03:17:09 pm
Oh, you are so right on this piece.  I am not sure how/when the momentum started on that section of trail, but it is ridiculous.   Early this Spring it wasn't too bad, but lately it has been overrun.   I bike early in the morning mostly, and multiple times this Summer there people had made campsites in the middle of the bike lanes.  I had to veer over to the running side to go around them.  Even biking, there were a few encounters that were "less than courteous".  I would definitely avoid that area, particularly early and late, if I were a runner.

 

That happens when you have a community that just complains about homelessness instead of being progressive enough to fix it. Not you individually but as a collective we've failed miserably.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: RecycleMichael on October 31, 2016, 04:55:20 pm
It's Centennial Park, not Central Park. And there are homeless people there every single day. It's a public park and they have every right to use it.

It was Central Park for decades until Tulsa turned 100 years old back in 1998. They then built a new senior and event center, a retention pond and a walking path called "Central Center at Centennial Park" as an homage to the old name.

I work directly the other side of the bridge from here. I am also having a dinner there tomorrow night for 150 people. I am there every week and drive by every day.

There are homeless people there, but they seem to be mostly passing through. They don't hang out near the condos or the Center for long. If I had to pick one place that seemed to be a hangout for the homeless, it would be under the bridge to the west.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on October 31, 2016, 07:14:05 pm
That happens when you have a community that just complains about homelessness instead of being progressive enough to fix it. Not you individually but as a collective we've failed miserably.

B.S.  For a city of our size we are very blessed with quite a bit of social services and programs for the homeless and under-priveledged.  I think of Tulsa as being a pretty caring city. 

What cities do it well or better?  I’m not aware of one which has managed to deal with the problem entirely.  The truth is, there is no such thing as a fix for homelessness. 

For every person you get off the street, there’s another heading that direction.  It happens.  Whether it’s mental illness, drug use, ex-convicts turned out by family, or someone who had a cataclysm of circumstances which robbed them of everything- there will always be homeless or people temporarily down on their luck trying to claw their way back up.  It’s not a reflection on the community at large.

Keep in mind, homeless people will migrate to larger cities because smaller towns don’t have any resources to help them.  These are not all Tulsa natives you see out on the streets.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 31, 2016, 08:43:42 pm
The ones that gather near Elwoods don't seem to be a problem, except that they sometimes seem to occupy the park area there and that (to me) seems to intrude too much on children's use of that space.   Where I had issues was more up between the bridge and about 15th.  Haven't been through there in 2-3 weeks, but was consistently a hassle for a while in that area.



Yes, that area.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on October 31, 2016, 08:50:05 pm
It's Centennial Park, not Central Park. And there are homeless people there every single day. It's a public park and they have every right to use it.

Oh, stop that. It was Central Park for 85 years and it will always be Central Park to natives. Call it Limberger for all I care, its Central Park and Centennial park at the same time. Same thing with the 11th street bridge. No one called it the 66 bridge till someone saw economic benefit to do so.

Yes, there are homeless there every single day and you don't seem to have read my post. Getting sanctimonious is a waste of time. I do not begrudge them even though they pay no taxes, do not clean up after themselves and leave their huts, bush homes,  bottles and piles of clothing all over. They have a right to trash a fine park.

If you cannot see the difference  between Iron Gate and River Parks homeless, then you're just not paying attention.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 01, 2016, 07:08:34 am
I looked long and hard last night for statistics to help understand what might actually help alleviate homelessness. Its hard to find a good source, but I think I found one:

http://www.endhomelessness.org/page/-/files/4361_file_Appendix_One.pdf

The chart lists cities with homeless populations, the estimate of the number of homeless as of 2011 (last year solid data was available for all 100), then breaks it down per capita and rank. It uses MSA, which I think it must. My idea was we could look at this data and find the trends - cities in the south tend to have more homeless, or cities on the coast, or in the rust belt...whatever. Then find the outliers that are doing better than the trends woudl suggest and see what they are doing.

I never got that far. In general, we are doing pretty well - in line with Pittsburgh, Dallas, etc. in per capita homelessness at 9/10k.  I will pick out one early trend, to have a truly astonishing number of homeless, you need to have a nice climate - California, Florida, Seattle, etc. I can't imagine the social functions that lead to homelessness are any different in Fresno California than they are in Pittsburgh, PA, do homeless people move to nice areas, feel more inclined/motivated based on location, or other factors?

Anyway, there is the data, dig into it. See what you can come up with.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 08:26:03 am
B.S.  For a city of our size we are very blessed with quite a bit of social services and programs for the homeless and under-priveledged.  I think of Tulsa as being a pretty caring city. 

What cities do it well or better?  I’m not aware of one which has managed to deal with the problem entirely.  The truth is, there is no such thing as a fix for homelessness. 

For every person you get off the street, there’s another heading that direction.  It happens.  Whether it’s mental illness, drug use, ex-convicts turned out by family, or someone who had a cataclysm of circumstances which robbed them of everything- there will always be homeless or people temporarily down on their luck trying to claw their way back up.  It’s not a reflection on the community at large.

Keep in mind, homeless people will migrate to larger cities because smaller towns don’t have any resources to help them.  These are not all Tulsa natives you see out on the streets.

Great post! And the link cannon_fodder provided shows Tulsa is one of the better cities in this regard. Far better than just about every renown staunchly liberal city on the list which shows it is not a R/D issue. Two of the best cities for this are Baton Rouge and Provo, Utah. Both areas close to Tulsa's size but slightly smaller. Both very conservative areas. For Baton Rouge, nearby New Orleans has an incredibly high rate of 56 per 10k population. I am not sure what else Baton Rouge is doing, but we should look to them along with Provo Utah.

I would consider Birmingham, Little Rock, Memphis, KC, Wichita, OKC and Jackson regional/climate peers and all of those places have a much higher rate of homelessness except Wichita which is just slightly higher. So all of those cities should look up to what Tulsa is doing about homelessness.

DC, SF, Springfield MA, Seattle, NYC and all of the other major liberal cities should be ashamed of themselves and how they treat those who are not well off and they should all look up to conservative cities who actually help those in need like Wichita, Tulsa and Provo.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 08:28:02 am
I looked long and hard last night for statistics to help understand what might actually help alleviate homelessness. Its hard to find a good source, but I think I found one:

http://www.endhomelessness.org/page/-/files/4361_file_Appendix_One.pdf

The chart lists cities with homeless populations, the estimate of the number of homeless as of 2011 (last year solid data was available for all 100), then breaks it down per capita and rank. It uses MSA, which I think it must. My idea was we could look at this data and find the trends - cities in the south tend to have more homeless, or cities on the coast, or in the rust belt...whatever. Then find the outliers that are doing better than the trends woudl suggest and see what they are doing.

I never got that far. In general, we are doing pretty well - in line with Pittsburgh, Dallas, etc. in per capita homelessness at 9/10k.  I will pick out one early trend, to have a truly astonishing number of homeless, you need to have a nice climate - California, Florida, Seattle, etc. I can't imagine the social functions that lead to homelessness are any different in Fresno California than they are in Pittsburgh, PA, do homeless people move to nice areas, feel more inclined/motivated based on location, or other factors?

Anyway, there is the data, dig into it. See what you can come up with.



In Utah, the most conservative state in the union, they provide homes to homeless with no requirements to quit drug/alcohol use (very "liberal" sounding idea, huh?). In the long run, they usually quit using drugs anyways and it actually saves society money immediately. It is much cheaper to have someone in a home than out on the streets (many factors but medical and incarceration are the biggest factors). Tulsa is doing something similar called Better Box Project with the Denver House. That is a way to actually combat homelessness.

Utah plans to house all homeless who want a home. I doubt the number for SLC in that link unless it includes temporarily homeless because chronic homelessness in all of Utah has plummeted from several thousand to around 700 thanks to their housing program.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 08:32:43 am
I love how all of the anti-Tulsa anti-conservative pro-democrat rants are posted and then someone posts facts which completely go against that narrative. Travel to just about any major urban area in the US and be thankful for how homelessness is in Tulsa. LA is horrifyingly sad.

It would be great to have zero homeless, but that will never happen, even in Utah where they give you a home for free with very few conditions.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2016, 08:44:32 am

I never got that far. In general, we are doing pretty well - in line with Pittsburgh, Dallas, etc. in per capita homelessness at 9/10k.  I will pick out one early trend, to have a truly astonishing number of homeless, you need to have a nice climate - California, Florida, Seattle, etc. I can't imagine the social functions that lead to homelessness are any different in Fresno California than they are in Pittsburgh, PA, do homeless people move to nice areas, feel more inclined/motivated based on location, or other factors?

Anyway, there is the data, dig into it. See what you can come up with.




I'm betting climate - it's easier to deal with living outside if the climate is not gonna freeze you to death.  But then, there are still several thousand in Alaska....

http://justice.uaa.alaska.edu/forum/26/2summer2009/b_homelessness.html



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 01, 2016, 09:23:26 am
For some reason a guy sitting behind me at a restaurant last week struck up a conversation about Portland, Oregon where he was from.  He was talking about tiny houses for the homeless so I figured I’d look it up to see how close to the truth it was.  All of these links below are from this year, so this is currently happening or being discussed on the larger projects.

I have reservations about creating communities for homeless without any stipulations to be clean and sober.  My concern rests largely on the kind of criminal activity which follows drug and hardcore alcohol abuse.  I see it as coming with the risk of creating more crime-ridden public housing or essentially ghettos.  I could be all wrong, but this has been a chronic issue in complexes where there are concentrations of low income families.

Dignity Village houses 60 men and women:

http://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-justice/-in-a-tiny-house-village-portlands-homeless-find-dignity-20160128

Health care providers in Portland donating $21.5 million for 400 housing units:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/5-portland-hospitals-donate-215m-to-build-homeless-housing/2016/09/23/a4dd7aea-81bd-11e6-9578-558cc125c7ba_story.html

Here’s another $100 million project proposed by developers to help house up to 1400 homeless people:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/06/portland_developers_pitch_100.html

That link mentions San Antonio’s “Haven For Hope”

http://www.havenforhope.org/new/


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on November 01, 2016, 09:56:22 am
I have reservations about creating communities for homeless without any stipulations to be clean and sober.  

This right here...   

I don't feel I'm qualified to weigh in on how to solve this problem, and I tend to agree with others that to a certain extent it will never go away.  But running through this string just now I first saw Heirony's line: "They have a right to trash a fine park." (and I am taking that piece in context, it was well-written response.)  And respectfully, I disagree. They, nor anyone, has a right to trash anything.  Use the parks, hang out, etc, fine.  But when you start setting up tents and leaving trash all around, intimidating people, etc, you have overstepped your welcome.

Getting people off the streets, in whatever form that is accomplished, is admirable.  But with aid comes some form of agreement with regard to behavior.  Simply feeding a person, or housing them, etc, without some commitment from the individual only perpetuates a bad situation.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on November 01, 2016, 10:08:44 am
This right here...    

I don't feel I'm qualified to weigh in on how to solve this problem, and I tend to agree with others that to a certain extent it will never go away.  But running through this string just now I first saw Heirony's line: "They have a right to trash a fine park." (and I am taking that piece in context, it was well-written response.)  And respectfully, I disagree. They, nor anyone, has a right to trash anything.  Use the parks, hang out, etc, fine.  But when you start setting up tents and leaving trash all around, intimidating people, etc, you have overstepped your welcome.

Getting people off the streets, in whatever form that is accomplished, is admirable.  But with aid comes some form of agreement with regard to behavior.  Simply feeding a person, or housing them, etc, without some commitment from the individual only perpetuates a bad situation.

That was my quote and indeed I did mean it in context as a sardonic response. With all rights come responsibilities but because of the nature of their illnesses, they don't accept those responsibilities.

I was afraid this would devolve into a political, conservative vs liberal conversation as most everything does these days. I would love to see us as a community do something, novel, insightful, meaningful even if it does fail. Because when you keep saying we're better than people think or as good or better than others our size, our politics, our income etc nothing really happens to improve our condition. Then parks deteriorate till the next one is built, people build walls around their neighborhoods and join NIMBY fights and the rich get richer, and we can't get our pitture on the cover of the Rolling Stone.

I might have drifted a bit there...


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: RecycleMichael on November 01, 2016, 10:48:54 am
DC, SF, Springfield MA, Seattle, NYC and all of the other major liberal cities should be ashamed of themselves and how they treat those who are not well off and they should all look up to conservative cities who actually help those in need like Wichita, Tulsa and Provo.

Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to sell newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2016, 11:45:48 am
 

I don't feel I'm qualified to weigh in on how to solve this problem, and I tend to agree with others that to a certain extent it will never go away.  But running through this string just now I first saw Heirony's line: "They have a right to trash a fine park." (and I am taking that piece in context, it was well-written response.)  And respectfully, I disagree. They, nor anyone, has a right to trash anything.  Use the parks, hang out, etc, fine.  But when you start setting up tents and leaving trash all around, intimidating people, etc, you have overstepped your welcome.




??

I don't remember saying that... where was it??





Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2016, 11:49:41 am
Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to seel newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.



Thank you!


I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there - and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.





Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 12:36:13 pm
Total hogwash.

Seattle has excellent programs for the homeless from public and private sources. They allow tent cities  on road right of ways, allow homeless to seel newspapers for income, and have a large host of social service agencies to deal with mental illness.

D.C. has an incredible network of social service agencies dealing with the homeless. http://www.dccfh.org/

Stop acting as if this is a partisan issue.


Well the numbers tell a different story. If they really helped homeless, there wouldn't be that many. They would have homes. Seattle has an atrociously high number of homeless (13,000!). They would need that down to 3,000 to compare to Tulsa's levels. That is an embarrassment. Tell me about how great Seattle is with homeless when they get their percentages down well below the national average at least. Yes, it is high rent to blame, I know. Well Tulsa really has them beat then! 

I know it is not a partisan issue. That is why my somewhat tongue-in-cheek post was replying to Heironymous' post claiming that it was. I specifically said "which shows it is not a R/D issue."


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 01, 2016, 12:51:18 pm
I know I sound like the angry ogre here, so sorry. I know these are people. I know many of them need help and can get back on their feet. I know still others have been failed by our mental health or drug addiction system. But... The Seattle proposal for free camping (it hasn't obtained final approval) would be something I'd be against, just like many people in Seattle:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-gets-an-earful-as-it-weighs-protections-for-homeless-in-camp-evictions/

The plan is essentially that anyone can camp in a park if they claim they are homeless. Some areas would be deemed of limits (sidewalks, schools, etc.). The city can request they leave after 30 days if the city can provide alternative housing for them.  If the area became dangerous/unsanitary due to too many homeless, the city would have to try to remedy the problems before requiring the people to leave. Install and clean toilets, regular trash pickup, etc.

Lets pick Guthrie Green, Woodard Park, and the Gathering Place and fill them up with several hundred homeless camps. Really, that is making it easier on the ~300 homeless people to continue the status quo - and bad for the other 1,000,000 people in the metro. Not too mention, it is a huge welcome mat for as many homeless people as can get to Tulsa from OKC, Wichita, Dallas, Little Rock, KC... wherever they can get $50 together for a bus ticket to get a better offer here in Tulsa. Unfortunately, Tulsa has closed community pools, eviscerated other parks, and the State has shut down most state parks - I don't think we can afford to offer up our existing parks for other uses at the moment.

When Portland tried it, the homeless congregated along their trail system. Imagine river trails, with homeless camps up and down it.  Don't bother imagining it, here's a picture from Portland:

(https://lintvkoin.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/greeley-homeless-camp-a-11112015.jpg)
http://koin.com/2015/12/15/city-struggles-to-take-action-as-homeless-camps-multiply/

Portland tried this policy, and ended it August 2:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-homeless-camping-policy-end-safe-sleep/

In my admittedly unlearned opinion, that isn't a policy aimed at a solution, it's just enabling.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 12:55:22 pm

Thank you!


I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there - and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.



Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 01, 2016, 01:48:09 pm
The problem with Portland is the homeless don't want housing, they don't need it. Between Portland and Vancouver there are probably 20 some odd places where they can get warm/food/showers/laundry/mass transit passes/basic medical/clothes/shoes/toiletries/tents/sleeping bags etc, and when you can gather bottles and cans a get $.05/can or bottle, they have everything they want.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on November 01, 2016, 02:12:40 pm
??
I don't remember saying that... where was it??

Sorry, my bad.  It was Aqua.  I was writing from memory.   He took credit for it a bit earlier. 



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 01, 2016, 02:49:57 pm
Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.

While most homeless people would rather have a roof over their head, there are some (I’d say a smaller percentage, no idea what that % would be scientifically) who really are happy to not have the responsibility of an apartment or house, or remembering to have enough money to pay utilities before they got shut off.

I’ve actually known some day laborers who were happy to live down by the Arkansas River rather than staying in a week-to-week fleabag motel.  It is not what I consider ideal but they got off work, bought beer, a pint, or some cheap wine and went down to the river to fish, hang out and catch a buzz.  Essentially, these were people who knew they were not responsible enough with their money (nor willing to make a commitment to show up and work every day) to make the commitment for a lease on an apartment or house.  If the weather looked harsh for a few days, they would get a room over near the turnpike gate in west Tulsa.

It’s been some time since we needed menial shop help so bad we would tolerate the work habits of the habitually drunk, but that’s where my experience with this comes from.  Yes, there’s a certain amount of substance abuse controlling their life, but they would claim they loved their freedom. If they were too hung over to make it in a couple of days a week, no sweat.  They didn’t have many personal possessions to shepherd and didn’t have to worry about a place to keep clean.  

We did have a welder who worked for us a couple of years back that if he didn’t have a few girlfriends around town willing to put him up here and there he would have been homeless.

Certainly people like that could change the order of their priorities.  For most of us, our first priority is food and shelter.  It literally is pretty far down the list for some people in society who either view it as optional or there’s a bigger desire to be somewhat lazy and to be able to drink or drug as they please.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 03:13:16 pm
In Utah they found it is about 10-15% of homeless who refuse free housing without conditions of quitting drinking/drugs.

In Tulsa, about 700-800 would. That's the amount of units we need if we want to eradicate chronic homelessness as much as we can. That could cost around $400,000/month or $4.8 million a year, well below what Tulsans donate to charities already. We have several organizations bringing in well over that. Plus, with these housing programs, they utilize existing government benefits (Section 8, military, disabled, etc) to reduce the burden on the local charities. Also, eventually many of the tenants end up getting jobs and paying some too.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 01, 2016, 03:22:19 pm
The problem with Portland is the homeless don't want housing, they don't need it. Between Portland and Vancouver there are probably 20 some odd places where they can get warm/food/showers/laundry/mass transit passes/basic medical/clothes/shoes/toiletries/tents/sleeping bags etc, and when you can gather bottles and cans a get $.05/can or bottle, they have everything they want.

You are really glamorizing the terrible homelessness issue in those places. I would much rather be homeless here than in Portland or Vancouver. In Tulsa, there's no shortage of shelters if you're willing to give up alcohol and drugs and live by the rules. There's an abundance of places to get free food. Homeless around here are not in want of food. Ever try giving food to a homeless person here? I have been met with negative reactions just about every time I've offered to give or buy food (but typically just "no thanks, I need a bus ticket"...).

Also, as I said, most homeless people would accept free housing if offered, especially without requirements to quit drugs/alcohol. Some are freebirds for life  but most would rather at least have a place inside.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2016, 03:51:45 pm
Hogwash that the homeless enjoy being homeless! Everyone has a desire to save face. Do you think they want the additional shame of admitting they hate being homeless? In Utah, they've found that only about 10-15% of chronically homeless outright refuse to move into a home for one reason or another when offered (sometimes takes a long time to convince them). So Seattle should be able to reduce that from 13k down to 2k if they were really trying. That is a terrible place to be homeless with frequent rain and stable but somewhat chilly weather.

Portland has 7100 homeless!? That is insane. Imagine what we would say about Tulsa and OKC if we had 7000 homeless between the 2 cities!

heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.


I did not say "enjoy".  Don't go all Trumpy on me!

Given all the other components of their situation, that is where those two guys chose to be at that moment in time.  Maybe the weather was pleasant, maybe the panhandling was better due to all the tourists.  I didn't dig that deep into their situation.  They could have been elsewhere - the troll is where they chose to be.  One of them had a bicycle, so he was definitely more mobile of the two.









Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on November 01, 2016, 04:41:36 pm
Seems like we're hung up on the word "homeless". Its a catch all word. We're really talking about substance abusers aren't we? People who get high or drunk and sleep in the bushes around a downtown church till they can get some coffee and food, then start the panhandling and do it all over again. They could care less about having a home except when it hot, cold or wet.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TheArtist on November 01, 2016, 07:18:30 pm
Seems like we're hung up on the word "homeless". Its a catch all word. We're really talking about substance abusers aren't we? People who get high or drunk and sleep in the bushes around a downtown church till they can get some coffee and food, then start the panhandling and do it all over again. They could care less about having a home except when it hot, cold or wet.

Thats what I have started pointing out.  These are either mentally ill people, and or, people with substance abuse problems. 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AquaMan on November 01, 2016, 07:40:53 pm
Its important to note that because if you identify them as "homeless", the solutions tend to center around finding structures for them when that is not their real need. We tend to think they want what we want, good homes, good jobs, family and respect. Maybe, but first they want to get high, get normal, get a buzz.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 02, 2016, 08:02:46 am
The ones that gather near Elwoods don't seem to be a problem, except that they sometimes seem to occupy the park area there and that (to me) seems to intrude too much on children's use of that space.   Where I had issues was more up between the bridge and about 15th.  Haven't been through there in 2-3 weeks, but was consistently a hassle for a while in that area.



Concern raised and addressed:  RPA is more than aware of the issue and they’ve reached out to various channels for help:  The shelters can’t do anything to discourage this.  RPA's patrol is seasonal and they do not have the ability to arrest anyone for public drunk, assault, etc.  TPD doesn’t want to deal with it because all that happens is they get a “slimy drunk” in their car who spits, pees, or worse in the patrol unit.  They take the time to book them and the offender is back out the next day and fines never get paid so it is a low priority crime in their view.  RPA has stepped up and paid for additional police patrol to enforce the park curfew but that’s as far as it goes.

Essentially, everyone seems to be aware there is a problem.  Does the problem warrant much more police presence to keep activity in River Parks to a minimum?  Apparently not at this point.  Like it or not, these people do have a right to be in the park even if they have no clue nor care they are dampening the experience for other park users and making passage on the trails potentially hazardous at times.  So long as they are not assaulting others, it will get a limited response due to limited resources and limited remedies.

There is a real concern with RPA’s management and they are frustrated there are limited options.  The hope is this is cyclical and with cold weather approaching the wanderers will move on.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 02, 2016, 12:17:07 pm

I did not say "enjoy".  Don't go all Trumpy on me!

Given all the other components of their situation, that is where those two guys chose to be at that moment in time.  Maybe the weather was pleasant, maybe the panhandling was better due to all the tourists.  I didn't dig that deep into their situation.  They could have been elsewhere - the troll is where they chose to be.  One of them had a bicycle, so he was definitely more mobile of the two.


You said :
Quote
"They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to.  As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good."
That suggests that they enjoy their life being homeless and "chose" to live like that.

You are the one getting Trumpy with baseless attacks and refusal to answer the question I asked you:
Quote
heironymous, Can you explain why Tulsa is held to a much much higher standard than Portland or Seattle? Them  being among the worst places for homelessness in the US is good according to you whereas Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 02, 2016, 01:07:25 pm
You said :That suggests that they enjoy their life being homeless and "chose" to live like that.

You are the one getting Trumpy with baseless attacks and refusal to answer the question I asked you:


How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint.


Baseless attacks...?  Other than a quick little Trump poke, how were you attacked?  If you are that thin-skinned, I kinda feel for you in all your future dealings in life....

As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


Still looking for that first quote of yours...can't find it.  The one saying I said they enjoy homeless living....  Got a post number?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 02, 2016, 01:35:46 pm
You are really glamorizing the terrible homelessness issue in those places. I would much rather be homeless here than in Portland or Vancouver. In Tulsa, there's no shortage of shelters if you're willing to give up alcohol and drugs and live by the rules. There's an abundance of places to get free food. Homeless around here are not in want of food. Ever try giving food to a homeless person here? I have been met with negative reactions just about every time I've offered to give or buy food (but typically just "no thanks, I need a bus ticket"...).

Also, as I said, most homeless people would accept free housing if offered, especially without requirements to quit drugs/alcohol. Some are freebirds for life  but most would rather at least have a place inside.

I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green

(http://portlandtribune.com/images/artimg/00003528254615.jpg)

and this for a better use of the surface parking

(http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/homeless2jpg-42c4518543a5ea02.jpg)

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/ (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 02, 2016, 02:00:05 pm
I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green

(http://portlandtribune.com/images/artimg/00003528254615.jpg)

and this for a better use of the surface parking

(http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/homeless2jpg-42c4518543a5ea02.jpg)

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/ (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/)

See, these people are not “homeless” they are “urban campers”.   :D


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 02, 2016, 02:22:06 pm
See, these people are not “homeless” they are “urban campers”.   :D


Yeah, the people that couldn't afford the upgrade to live on the river.

(http://threesheetsnw.com/files/2014/04/homeless-boats4.jpg)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cynical on November 02, 2016, 02:24:13 pm
As recently as last summer, I've walked in the old Portland Chinatown district shown in the lower picture. The Chinese Garden around the corner is quite nice. Homelessness there is not as orderly as the picture implies. There are people sleeping in the sidewalks all over the district. If you visit that area it's difficult to not get close to the problem, though I was never accosted by any of them.

The problem in that specific area of Portland appears to mainly involve addiction. Anyone who has had experience in that area will tell you that treatment requires intense one-on-one engagement with the patient. No city, Portland included, has anything like the resources to deal with this problem the way it has to be dealt with. The best they can do is to mitigate the damage - providing an infrastructure of relatively a relatively safe habitat, access to adequate food and clothing, and things like needle exchanges. Iron Gate is part of that kind of approach. It helps them stay alive but doesn't provide any exit from the lifestyle, if you want to call it that.

I also saw homeless encampments other places in Portland. There's a park along the Willamette River where tents are set up under the bridges and you see tents in the freeway rights of way. Unlike what is being reported about the River Parks in this discussion, there doesn't seem to be any particularly negative interaction between joggers, pedestrians, and the homeless there. But the sheer scale of the problem there is amazing.

Portland has a number of ongoing programs to assist the homeless in finding permanent housing. For a summary, visit this page from the city's web site: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/phb/60643 (https://www.portlandoregon.gov/phb/60643). One detail of interest: Portland estimates its homeless population at 4,000 per night. Tulsa's was estimated at 6,000 to 7,000 "per year," whatever that means. http://www.newson6.com/story/32117092/tulsa-shelters-overflowing-as-homeless-numbers-grow (http://www.newson6.com/story/32117092/tulsa-shelters-overflowing-as-homeless-numbers-grow). This may be an apples and oranges comparison because of the differing time periods reported. But considering that the Portland metro area is about 2.5 times larger than Tulsa's, it doesn't seem that its homelessness problem is as bad as ours. It is more visible, though.

I doubt that life would be better for anyone if the homeless had to hide.

I'm not trying to glamorize anything. The reason for the high number of homeless is that other than throwing free stuff to them, no one tries to actually help them. They have no reason to leave or try because they don't have to do anything. The cities let them camp anywhere. Tell you what, we'll send you some of this for the Williams Center Green

(http://portlandtribune.com/images/artimg/00003528254615.jpg)

and this for a better use of the surface parking

(http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/homeless2jpg-42c4518543a5ea02.jpg)

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/ (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland-homeless/)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 02, 2016, 03:03:45 pm

How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint.


Baseless attacks...?  Other than a quick little Trump poke, how were you attacked?  If you are that thin-skinned, I kinda feel for you in all your future dealings in life....

As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


Still looking for that first quote of yours...can't find it.  The one saying I said they enjoy homeless living....  Got a post number?


I don't even know where to begin with all of your terrible logic. I do not watch Fox News and I am not a republican or even close to being one. Serious question, have you been diagnosed with a mental disorder? If not, you should go see someone about that.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 02, 2016, 03:12:53 pm

As for an answer to your question - I gotta ask you why should Tulsa NOT be held to a higher standard??   Your question alone implies abdication to the idea the those two places are inherently 'better' than Tulsa to start with.  I also submit that while it is good to keep an eye on others around us (like Portland and Seattle), we should strive to be the best that we can be and ALWAYS be working toward improving that!!  NO MATTER how far behind OR ahead of others we may be!

And there is your "Trumpy-ness" again - putting words into my mouth that I did not say - "Tulsa's ranking near the top in the US in fewest homeless is a complete failure."   Ya really owe it to yourself to step away from the Faux News once in a while.....


No, asking why Tulsa needs to eliminate homelessness far below any other city in the US is not "abdication" that those places are better, just that that is something Tulsa does far better so using those as examples of where they supposedly do it right is ridiculous. And of the ways where Tulsa could learn from other cities, that is not one of them. We have an incredibly generous community. They should learn from Tulsa on that. Your rant about republicans getting in the way of reducing homelessness was a poorly written excuse for an argument and was filled with sweeping generalizations with inherent fallacies.

I love to hate on Republicans as much as the next person but you sound like one of those old grumpy democrats everyone complains about in the suburbs and I don't even know what your age is.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 02, 2016, 03:30:05 pm
I don't even know where to begin with all of your terrible logic. I do not watch Fox News and I am not a republican or even close to being one. Serious question, have you been diagnosed with a mental disorder? If not, you should go see someone about that.


And yet, even though I have answered your question(s), and addressed your comments directly, you start slinging insults.  And attempting deflection and misdirection.   Just address the first paragraph... I will repeat;

"How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint."


You are the one that tried to put words in my mouth about homeless "enjoying" the lifestyle.  Unless you can show me that quote - as requested in the last line of that post, then one can only conclude that you intentionally injected a lie into the discussion.  Again, a typical Trump and Faux News method, so you can see how I would make that connection...





Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 02, 2016, 03:52:13 pm

And yet, even though I have answered your question(s), and addressed your comments directly, you start slinging insults.  And attempting deflection and misdirection.   Just address the first paragraph... I will repeat;

"How can you possibly equate a choice to enjoyment in that kind of situation?  It is like our current election - if one is going to vote, then one must make a choice.  For the vast majority that I have talked to, none "enjoy" it.  All to often choices are not made from enjoyment but from lessor of two evils standpoint."


You are the one that tried to put words in my mouth about homeless "enjoying" the lifestyle.  Unless you can show me that quote - as requested in the last line of that post, then one can only conclude that you intentionally injected a lie into the discussion.  Again, a typical Trump and Faux News method, so you can see how I would make that connection...




I have met a couple of the people who were living behind the troll in Seattle - at least at the time I was there -  and they were not ignored/neglected by the powers that be.  They just chose to be where they were, even though they seemed to imply they could have had a more 'conventional' roof than a bridge if they had chosen to. As it was early summer and very pleasant weather, I could see the attraction to "camping out"....being outdoors while the weather is good.


All of that says it's nice weather, they were paid attention to by authorities/taken care of, they chose that life even though they "could have had a more 'conventional' roof". Plus you are comparing it to camping out which is a recreational activity! How does that not imply that they enjoyed being homeless?

If I had the option of sleeping inside or outside and I chose to sleep outside, it would be because I enjoyed that. Otherwise I would choose to sleep inside. Why would I choose to sleep outside if I both 1) had the option to sleep inside and 2) did not enjoy sleeping outside?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 02, 2016, 03:56:55 pm
No, asking why Tulsa needs to eliminate homelessness far below any other city in the US is not "abdication" that those places are better, just that that is something Tulsa does far better so using those as examples of where they supposedly do it right is ridiculous. And of the ways where Tulsa could learn from other cities, that is not one of them. We have an incredibly generous community. They should learn from Tulsa on that. Your rant about republicans getting in the way of reducing homelessness was a poorly written excuse for an argument and was filled with sweeping generalizations with inherent fallacies.

I love to hate on Republicans as much as the next person but you sound like one of those old grumpy democrats everyone complains about in the suburbs and I don't even know what your age is.


I was agreeing with Michael when he called BS on your blast of liberal versus conservative cities approach to the problem.  And then he mentioned specifics.  Got some of those??

Yes, we do have a very generous community.  They do too, so don't really need to learn from Tulsa on that - all on the same page.

As for sweeping generalizations - you just made a whopper!  Again, got some of those specifics??

Your "hate on Republicans as much as the next person" rings hollow, unless viewed from a Libertarian point of view...especially when you (falsely) compare/contrast liberal cities versus conservative cities.  And just for the record, I don't hate on Republicans at all - I swing both ways - Republican and Democrat.  What I DO hate on is the Hijacked Republican Party, which is a horse of a different kettle of fish!!


As for my age - well that proves you have not been paying attention!  I have made it very plain around here that I am older than dirt!  And may well be older than rock!!  I am sure I am older than Aqua and may be older than sauerkraut!!  (Little back-handed passive-aggressive shot at Aqua there...Sorry, Aqua!  Well, a little bit anyway!)  But trust me, I am an equal opportunity abuser!  I go after Dems as much as Repubs - at least real Repubs!   Hijacked Repubs - we gotta get a new name for what has stolen that party...something reflective of what they are.  I will think on that.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 02, 2016, 04:11:51 pm

All of that says it's nice weather, they were paid attention to by authorities/taken care of, they chose that life even though they "could have had a more 'conventional' roof". Plus you are comparing it to camping out which is a recreational activity! How does that not imply that they enjoyed being homeless?

If I had the option of sleeping inside or outside and I chose to sleep outside, it would be because I enjoyed that. Otherwise I would choose to sleep inside. Why would I choose to sleep outside if I both 1) had the option to sleep inside and 2) did not enjoy sleeping outside?


Camping out is a generic term applied to a wide variety of unconventional arrangements just to provide a convenient concise term to put an umbrella over a wide variety of sleeping arrangements/habits that don't involve being in a regular house.  I call what I do most of the time "camping out", even though it doesn't involve a tent, but a travel trailer.

Camping out to most of us here IS a recreational activity but that would be "enjoyable" because YOU enjoy it!  If you do enjoy camping out....  Your personal overlay put on to those people.  I have two friends who to this day do not like being under a roof because of nightmares/memories from PTSD they got from their time in our Southeast Asia Imperialistic Voyeurism Games.  One MUST have the window right next to his bed and it MUST be opened all the time - no matter what is happening outside!  He is always more at ease outside the house...camping out!  Not really enjoying it either, just less tormented.   Able to 'work with' his demons.

Neither you nor I have any idea of the true motivations/thoughts/mindsets of most, if not all, of the homeless both here and in Portland/Seattle.

It most likely isn't considered a 'recreational activity' in the sense you understand it.  It may well be - probably is - the preferred choice of other less than desirable choices.

And Michael covered how Seattle tries to make an effort...


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on November 02, 2016, 05:27:50 pm

On November 9th, the Downtown Coordinating Council (DCC) will host a public meeting to discuss Iron Gate's proposed move to a site approximately 3.33 blocks from its current location.

Wednesday, November 9, 1:30pm, at City Hall

Info from a November 2, 2016 Tulsa World online article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/downtown-coordinating-council-to-host-meeting-on-proposed-iron-gate/article_9bf9e61c-f52f-5a52-b590-3730e48549cc.html).
 


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 02, 2016, 06:30:52 pm
Its important to note that because if you identify them as "homeless", the solutions tend to center around finding structures for them when that is not their real need. We tend to think they want what we want, good homes, good jobs, family and respect. Maybe, but first they want to get high, get normal, get a buzz.



Thread winner, let’s move on.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on November 02, 2016, 08:13:07 pm

The topic is about Iron Gate's proposed new development on vacant land in downtown Tulsa, near 7th & Frankfort.

The proposed move to 3rd & Peoria was fraught with too many problems, so Iron Gate has a new proposal to move only a few blocks from their current location.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Bamboo World on November 09, 2016, 08:20:09 pm

The Downtown Coordinating Council (DCC) recommends denial of a special zoning code exception for Iron Gate's proposed site near 7th & Frankfort...

November 9, 2016 Tulsa World online article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/downtown-advisory-board-recommends-denial-of-zoning-exception-for-new/article_a3fcd2b5-ab69-598c-abba-85e1fcac93be.html)



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: DTowner on November 10, 2016, 10:29:13 am
The Downtown Coordinating Council (DCC) recommends denial of a special zoning code exception for Iron Gate's proposed site near 7th & Frankfort...

November 9, 2016 Tulsa World online article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/downtown-advisory-board-recommends-denial-of-zoning-exception-for-new/article_a3fcd2b5-ab69-598c-abba-85e1fcac93be.html)

"Iron Gate officials said they had hoped to have a traffic light installed at Seventh Street and Frankfort Avenue to address those concerns."

That would really create a traffic disaster during morning rush hour.  The traffic already backs up substantially from the Elgin light and adding one at Frankfort would cause traffic to back up onto the exit ramps.  Additionally, many cars change lanes in this area and a light would make that more difficult and more risky.

I think this underscores the problem with this location for IG's core clientele.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 10, 2016, 12:34:25 pm
"Iron Gate officials said they had hoped to have a traffic light installed at Seventh Street and Frankfort Avenue to address those concerns."

That would really create a traffic disaster during morning rush hour.  The traffic already backs up substantially from the Elgin light and adding one at Frankfort would cause traffic to back up onto the exit ramps.  Additionally, many cars change lanes in this area and a light would make that more difficult and more risky.

I think this underscores the problem with this location for IG's core clientele.


I agree. That is madness they "had hoped to have a traffic light installed at Seventh Street and Frankfort Avenue". I wonder if they whispered that quietly hoping it went unnoticed.

Exiting the ramp off of a highway, going downhill.. A stoplight there would impede that exit ramp and could backup traffic on to the expressway and that ramp being backed up could cause traffic to back up to the BA/75 northbound exit on busy mornings. Ridiculous idea.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 10, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
The Downtown Coordinating Council (DCC) recommends denial of a special zoning code exception for Iron Gate's proposed site near 7th & Frankfort...

November 9, 2016 Tulsa World online article by Mike Averill (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/downtown/downtown-advisory-board-recommends-denial-of-zoning-exception-for-new/article_a3fcd2b5-ab69-598c-abba-85e1fcac93be.html)


Good. Someone needs to stand up for all the investments and future of downtown (who wants hundreds of transients making that daily trek?). They specifically say the NW part of downtown is slated for this sort of development.  The excuse that no lots there fit their needs is probably just that... an excuse. This sounds like they are just trying anything they can to politically fight to get in the better parts of the IDL. Maybe they picked this new terrible spot because they want the homeless wandering from the Day Center through the central business district and nice parts each day to "spread the wealth". Misery loves company.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 10, 2016, 01:45:24 pm
Any idea why they don't take the obvious path and move to the area where most of the other social services are?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on November 13, 2016, 10:27:44 am
Any idea why they don't take the obvious path and move to the area where most of the other social services are?

Same reason Tulsans don't take the obvious path and support the poor no matter where they are placed.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on November 13, 2016, 10:28:36 am
Same reason Tulsans don't take the obvious path and support the poor no matter where they are placed.

Reason being nobody seems interested in actually attaching the issue at hand.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: rebound on November 14, 2016, 08:48:55 am
Reason being nobody seems interested in actually attaching the issue at hand.

Same reason Tulsans don't take the obvious path and support the poor no matter where they are placed.

I assume you are just baiting a bit with these last two comments.  Most all the people on here commenting advocate for supporting the working poor (and those people are not the ones on the street) , but rather there is considerable discussion and questioning regarding what to do about/with the chronically homeless.  Particularly for that segment of the the population, simply providing food with no expectation of lifestyle change is,  as one of my politically incorrect friends is apt to say, simply "feeding the bears".  

Understand that I write this as someone who is personally active in volunteering, and who's kids both regularly volunteer the various Tulsa food pantries, etc.  (My son was at one all day last Saturday)   But suggesting that the best way to address the chronically homeless problem in Tulsa is to simply provide food (or any other means of support for that matter), wherever there are homeless is illogical.  Truly "attacking the issue at hand"  will require a more coordinated response from among the various groups, and it will definitely require an expectation of change and adaptation from those being served.   Otherwise, we are just enabling and perpetuating the problem.

(sorry, two edits in the above.  Can't write this morning...)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 14, 2016, 09:08:48 am
My question is serious. Iron Gate has been told twice now that moving will be difficult, and nudged to look at the area where social services are centralized. It costs money, effort, and political capital every time this issues comes up.  Is there inertia to move over by the David L Moss, is there a lack of land for sale at reasonable prices, is it too far from the old location, or do they not want to locate in that area for other reasons?

I'm not saying Iron Gate is obligated to throw in the towel and go where they are encouraged to, just wondering if anyone knows if they are reluctant to do so and, if so, why?


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 14, 2016, 09:24:19 am
My question is serious. Iron Gate has been told twice now that moving will be difficult, and nudged to look at the area where social services are centralized. It costs money, effort, and political capital every time this issues comes up.  Is there inertia to move over by the David L Moss, is there a lack of land for sale at reasonable prices, is it too far from the old location, or do they not want to locate in that area for other reasons?

I'm not saying Iron Gate is obligated to throw in the towel and go where they are encouraged to, just wondering if anyone knows if they are reluctant to do so and, if so, why?

Perhaps they are trying to mainstream the homeless population by not going the obvious route and taking their program to the jail and social services area near the DL Moss.  This goes back to a conversation I had with a city official a couple of years ago when the city was trying to negotiate a land swap for Simon Properties to build their proposed outlet mall on the west side of Hwy 75 rather than on the site they chose on Turkey Mountain.  That would have necessitated razing the low income apartment complex which is NE of the intersection of 61st & Union.

I asked how well that might go over taking away affordable housing and rebuilding elsewhere.  The response was that they thought it would be a good idea to get those living in low income housing dispersed throughout other neighborhoods as the example of people working and going to school might inspire them to change their circumstances.  I don't care for the idea of creating ghettos but I also am highly skeptical of social engineering vis-a-vis sticking section 8 housing in otherwise stable neighborhoods.  I'm thinking that might not go over well at 111th & Yale or in Maple Ridge.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 14, 2016, 09:26:58 am
Same reason Tulsans don't take the obvious path and support the poor no matter where they are placed.

Except that we do support the poor. Tulsans are among the most philanthropic in the nation with very high donations per capita and one of the lowest homeless rates in the nation. Furthermore, we already donate enough to provide housing for every single chronically homeless person, there just isn't one cohesive effort to provide that. Currently, if you agree to not do drugs or alcohol, you can find a shelter to stay at in Tulsa. The Denver House has a project, "Better Box", which is aiming to follow Utah's path to providing housing for all homeless without the requirement to quit drinking or using.

Please learn some facts before posting inflammatory nonsense.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on November 14, 2016, 03:47:33 pm
Except that we do support the poor. Tulsans are among the most philanthropic in the nation with very high donations per capita and one of the lowest homeless rates in the nation. Furthermore, we already donate enough to provide housing for every single chronically homeless person, there just isn't one cohesive effort to provide that. Currently, if you agree to not do drugs or alcohol, you can find a shelter to stay at in Tulsa. The Denver House has a project, "Better Box", which is aiming to follow Utah's path to providing housing for all homeless without the requirement to quit drinking or using.

Please learn some facts before posting inflammatory nonsense.

Learn facts? I literally work daily next to Iron Gate.

More facts for you: Tulsa has a poverty rate of 19.7% compared to the national average of 15.1%. I've learned my facts and am sick of you all running from them.

Another fun fact: Not everyone that uses Iron Gate is homeless.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on November 14, 2016, 09:04:00 pm
Learn facts? I literally work daily next to Iron Gate.

More facts for you: Tulsa has a poverty rate of 19.7% compared to the national average of 15.1%. I've learned my facts and am sick of you all running from them.

Another fun fact: Not everyone that uses Iron Gate is homeless.

No you don’t.  You work a block away.  Technically almost two blocks since the Iron Gate entrance is closer to 6th St.

You clearly do not read anything anyone else here posts:  

Go back a few pages and start over if you truly want to try to understand more about the issue and who these people are.  Homeless people aren’t necessarily looking for a home, not looking to get clean or sober, or looking for a job.  Being an urban center, for each one we get off the street, there’s another to take their place.

Tulsa is one of the most generous cities in the United States.  Perhaps if you would spend less time writing about what a sh!t dump Tulsa is you might take the blinders off and realize it’s not such a bad place.  As a secondary matter, the poverty rate of a city is not a function of the generosity nor a reflection on social services available in a city.  Tulsa does a pretty good job taking care of the less fortunate.  

You do realize those counted in your poverty number include the same people you employ, right?  What are you personally doing to change that metric?

Quit bitching at everyone else, and the shortcomings you perceive in them and make a difference, man!


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: RecycleMichael on November 28, 2016, 08:28:12 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-executive-director-steps-down-amid-relocation-fight-interim/article_c1e95537-5b4f-595a-adf6-64bcfe4af25c.html?_dc=792265154124.1466


Iron Gate Executive Director Connie Cronley has stepped down as head of the downtown soup kitchen and grocery pantry. The organization announced Monday that it has selected former board member Mark Barcus to serve as interim director. Officials with Iron Gate said Cronley made the decision to step down.“I am exhausted,” Cronley told the Tulsa World in an interview Monday. “Working with Iron Gate for the last 14 years has been one of the great, great joys of my life.”

Cronley took the helm of the organization in 2008. Before that she was a volunteer and board member of the nonprofit.
Iron Gate is in the middle of a struggle to relocate from the basement of Trinity Episcopal Church and build a 20,000-square-foot facility on vacant property between Seventh and Eighth streets and Kenosha and Elgin avenues. Cronley said she remains convinced that Iron Gate will prevail and the facility will be built. “Since Iron Gate outgrew the space at the church, my dream has been to build a beautiful, stand-alone facility to feed hungry people, but I never imagined it would result in such rancor and opposition,” she said. “That animosity has been unimaginable and very tiring.”
Barcus, an attorney and former district judge, takes over immediately and will remain as interim director until a replacement is found.

No time frame was given for the search for a new executive director.

“We are delighted Mark chose to take this role,” said Iron Gate board Chairwoman Mary Ann Hille. “He has served on our board for five years, including leadership positions as vice president and secretary. Mark clearly embraces our mission with great passion and he will provide excellent leadership as we continue our mission of serving Tulsa’s hungry every day and as we continue our commitment to moving to our new location.”

Iron Gate took its fight to build a new downtown facility to Tulsa County District Court last week. A special exception request and an appeal of the nonprofit’s government service status were both denied by the Tulsa City Board of Adjustment at a Nov. 17 special meeting. Appeals of those decisions have been filed in district court. No court date has been set. The Board of Adjustment’s denial of a special exception request was the second time in 14 months that the board has struck down an attempted move by Iron Gate.

In September 2015, the board denied several exceptions that would have allowed the organization to build a facility near Third Street and Peoria Avenue in the Pearl District. That proposal faced stiff opposition from area businesses and residents. Iron Gate provides daily meals to nearly 250 people through its soup kitchen and groceries to 300 households each week through its food pantry. It has been located since its inception in 1978 at Trinity Episcopal Church, 501 S. Cincinnati Ave. Iron Gate legally separated from the church and became a 501c(3) organization in 1984, according to its website. It remains located in the basement of the church. A capital campaign has raised more than $9 million to buy land, build the new facility and create an operating reserve. Construction is expected to cost $3.2 million.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: patric on December 04, 2016, 11:07:30 am
Stockholm owned the property on which the old furniture and lumber company occupied, but sold it to Michael Sager.
Sager, who sits on the Downtown Coordinating Council, is best known for his company Blue Dome Properties LLC, which has invested heavily in downtown. He purchased the proposed soup kitchen site from Stockholm through a different company, Bricks and Mortar LLC.
He defended the Iron Gate move Monday, saying the new building would be a positive for the neighborhood.
“I think it is a fabulous use of the property.” he said. “The architecture, the investment. … I think it is fabulous.”
He called those who would use the city’s most vulnerable population to spread fear “terribly petty.”
“I think there is plenty of crime that is not attributable to the homeless and the people in need,” Sager said.

Backtracking a bit to the OP.  The site burned to the ground Saturday morning.
http://www.fox23.com/news/firefighters-battle-midtown-tulsa-fire/472698791

May belong in a different thread now.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on December 04, 2016, 03:36:46 pm
Backtracking a bit to the OP.  The site burned to the ground Saturday morning.
http://www.fox23.com/news/firefighters-battle-midtown-tulsa-fire/472698791

May belong in a different thread now.

Well that's convenient er misfortunate.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 04, 2016, 07:47:33 pm
Backtracking a bit to the OP.  The site burned to the ground Saturday morning.
http://www.fox23.com/news/firefighters-battle-midtown-tulsa-fire/472698791

May belong in a different thread now.

And their drone is registered with the FAA, N617PR.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N617PR (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N617PR)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: saintnicster on December 05, 2016, 01:55:40 pm
And their drone is registered with the FAA, N617PR.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N617PR (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N617PR)
Yep http://www.fox23.com/news/local/fox23-becomes-first-tulsa-station-fly-drone-newsca/19652749


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: davideinstein on December 05, 2016, 11:34:45 pm
Backtracking a bit to the OP.  The site burned to the ground Saturday morning.
http://www.fox23.com/news/firefighters-battle-midtown-tulsa-fire/472698791

May belong in a different thread now.

Weird.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 22, 2017, 08:45:56 am
THE SAGA CONTINUES:

Quote
Iron gate could be interested in site next to Day Center for the Homeless

County lists parcel adjacent to jail as surplus; soup kitchen seeks specifics



The Iron Gate soup kitchen and food pantry might be interested in a parcel of land recently listed as surplus by Tulsa County, officials with the nonprofit said Monday.

“Right now, we’re trying to get a handle on how (the county) bidding process works and trying to understand the specifics of the property,” Iron Gate Chairman Shane Saunders said in an email. “To the eye, it looks big enough for our purposes, but we want to see if we can fit our existing design on the property.”

The property is in the northwest sector of downtown, where an advisory planning board opposed to the agency’s proposed relocation to the east edge of downtown advised Iron Gate to move last year.

The 1.8-acre parcel at Archer Street and Frisco Avenue adjoins property occupied by the Day Center for the Homeless and the Tulsa Jail and is across the street from the construction site for the new juvenile and family justice center.

The property was listed as surplus last week at the request of County Commissioner Karen Keith.

Iron Gate has been trying for several years to move from its home in the basement of Trinity Episcopal Church, 501 S. Cincinnati Ave.

Two years ago, Iron Gate’s proposal to relocate to 302 S. Peoria Ave. in the Pearl District, just east of downtown, was shot down when the agency’s application for rezoning was rejected by the Board of Adjustment.

Its attempt last year to move to a 1.5-acre site between Seventh and Eighth streets and Elgin and Frankfort avenues touched off a legal dispute that remains unresolved.

Property owners in that area objected to Iron Gate’s plans to build a 20,000-square-foot facility at that location, and in November Iron Gate was denied a zoning variance it would have needed to operate there.

Iron Gate’s appeal of that decision continues to languish in Tulsa County District Court.

Saunders said the Archer Street location could make “a good backup plan” but noted that Iron Gate still has a contract on the land on downtown’s east side.

“Another unanswered question is what will the regulatory and/or environmental hurdles look like,” Saunders wrote. “We’re already in the midst of an appeal with our current site regarding zoning. If we can get a handle on all of this, Iron Gate will likely be a bidder.”

County officials said they don’t know how long the legal process for disposing of the property will take or whether it will be sold by auction or sealed bid. In either event, there is no guarantee that Iron Gate would submit the best bid.



Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: hello on August 22, 2017, 09:23:59 am
Guess we're just losing that side of Downtown. It's already sketchy walking from the Brady to Crosbie and Owen Park.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2017, 10:27:46 am
I think we can all agree that social services play a vital role in any city, Tulsa is no different.  Since Iron Gate’s move and expansion has thus far been thwarted by NIMBYism, this seems to be a good turn of events for them.  On the one hand, I hate this development pretty much cements the western part of the Brady District as a homeless and correctional ghetto, but at the same time, that area can pretty much provide all services to someone struggling to stay afloat or to get back on their feet.

As far as transiting that area by foot, bike, (or golf cart...long story) I’ve never personally had issues with being accosted along Archer in that section of The Brady.  I was always more likely to get hit up outside the IDL at one of the mid-town QT’s.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 22, 2017, 10:27:52 am
Guess we're just losing that side of Downtown. It's already sketchy walking from the Brady to Crosbie and Owen Park.

It was already "lost" in that it was never going to be developed in any good urban kind of way. It is part of the city's plan to make that area for corrections and rehab type places. They even recommended that area for Iron Gate at some point. All of that stuff needs to be somewhere and connected to both north and NW Tulsa is ideal. Lots of people who need help in those areas. Also, it keeps all those services in an area close by so they don't have to walk all over downtown.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: MostSeriousness on August 22, 2017, 11:48:19 am
I don't think anyone active in the Brady Arts District is open to claiming that portion as strictly Brady. I've even seen a few business/property owners correct maps and point out that that area is the "Justice District"

Don't see it as an impact on the Brady, but do see it as a positive for both Iron Gate and the NIMBY types around the current Iron Gate location


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AdamsHall on August 24, 2017, 01:44:49 pm
I don't think anyone active in the Brady Arts District is open to claiming that portion as strictly Brady. I've even seen a few business/property owners correct maps and point out that that area is the "Justice District"

Don't see it as an impact on the Brady, but do see it as a positive for both Iron Gate and the NIMBY types around the current Iron Gate location

Agree.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 20, 2017, 03:11:59 pm
Final chapter of this home-search saga for Iron Gate?

Quote
Judge's ruling clears the way for Iron Gate to build new facility in southeast downtown



A nonprofit feeding program has the right to construct a new downtown soup kitchen and food pantry without jumping through any city zoning hoops, a judge ruled Wednesday.

Tulsa District Judge Rebecca Nightingale ruled in favor of Iron Gate’s motion for summary judgment following a hearing, clearing the way for the nonprofit to go forward with its plans for a new facility on the southeast side of downtown.

Nightingale, in her ruling, determined that the city of Tulsa erred when it required the nonprofit to receive Board of Adjustment approval before it could construct its new facility.

Nightingale found in favor of Iron Gate’s contention that the use for new facility more closely fit within the description of a restaurant, which under the zoning code does not require a special exception from the Board of Adjustment for locations within the Central Business District.

"The only one that fits is restaurant (use) and it is square on," Nightingale said, while posing questions to an attorney for the city of Tulsa.

City officials contended the facility fit more in the zoning category of government services, which did require a special exception.

Iron Gate attorney Lou Reynolds said afterwards that “obviously we’re pleased with it," referring to the judge’s decision.

“It’s really the first opportunity Iron Gate has had a chance to have its case heard, because there weren’t enough Board of Adjustment officials to hear it,” Reynolds said. “Judge Nightingale has fully heard both sides of the story and we believe she has made the correct ruling.

“We’ll go forward on this property,” Reynolds said. “We just need a building permit.”

An attorney for the city of Tulsa declined to comment on the ruling immediately after the hearing.

The nonprofit filed a lawsuit Nov. 23 after a week prior it failed to win approval from the Tulsa Board of Adjustment for their proposed new facility.

At issue was whether or not the nonprofit could operate at the proposed site either by right or by special exception.

To operate by right, the nonprofit had to convince Nightingale of its claim that the proposed downtown soup kitchen and food pantry for the needy more closely resembles in use a restaurant, rather than a government service as alleged by the city of Tulsa.

Officials with Iron Gate are planning to build a 20,000-square-foot facility on vacant property between Seventh and Eighth streets and Kenosha and Elgin avenues. The new facility would house food storage and kitchen space, a dining hall and administrative offices. An enclosed courtyard where people could wait to get into the building also is part of the plan.

The property for the proposed Iron Gate development is owned by William C. Schillinger. The sale of the property to Iron Gate is pending “subject to a determination that the property is suitable for its proposed development,” according to Iron Gate’s appeal.

A capital campaign has raised more than $9 million to buy land, build the facility and create an operating reserve. Construction is expected to cost $3.2 million.

Iron Gate currently provides daily meals to nearly 250 people through its soup kitchen and groceries to an additional 300 households each week through its food pantry. It has been located since its inception in 1978 at Trinity Episcopal Church, 501 S. Cincinnati Ave.

Iron Gate legally separated from the church and became its own 501(c)(3) organization in 1984, according to its website. It remains located in the basement of the church.

Iron Gate went to court after two of five Board of Adjustment members cast votes in favor of the request. Three votes are required to approve a measure before the Board of Adjustment. Two of the members recused from the vote and a third member abstained.

Iron Gate maintained that its proposed facility is not affiliated with a government entity or that it provides a government function. Rather, the nonprofit claimed its project fits more in the zoning category of a restaurant, office or warehouse — uses that don’t require Board of Adjustment approval.

City officials, in court filings, note that the government service designation was under the larger umbrella grouping of a public, quasi-public and private uses that provide unique services that are a benefit to the public.

“Iron Gate’s own documents show that it is a private entity that provides unique services that are of benefit to the public at large,” the city wrote in a court filing.

The owner of a self-storage facility immediately west of the proposed site opposed the Iron Gate request to relocate its operations.

SS Downtown Tulsa LLC claimed that Iron Gate was a not a restaurant and therefore did not qualify for a use by right to utilize the proposed site for its soup kitchen and food warehouse.





So downtown, business owners and the City of Tulsa all lose. I guess all the homeless who get hit crossing the highway exit ramp will also lose but that's for another day. That is a pretty whacky ruling, calling it a "restaurant". Like calling a brothel a chiropractor. At least the "restaurant" is moving away from the CBD to the edge next to the highway and home depot, so not a great locale to begin with.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 21, 2017, 09:29:05 am
I did not see that soup kitchens or food pantries are specifically addressed in the zoning code.  I didn't spend a ton of time looking, so here's the link to the 2016 zoning code for others to try (doubtless the attorneys involved did try):
http://www.incog.org/Land_Development/Documents/Tulsa%20Zoning%20Code%206.30.17%20Updates%20with%20bookmarks.pdf

The case, Tulsa CV-2016-1571
http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&cmid=3004337

Iron Gates argument (Summary Judgment):
http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocument.aspx?ct=tulsa&bc=1036558719&cn=CV-2016-1571&fmt=pdf

City's argument (response to Summary Judgment):
http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocument.aspx?ct=tulsa&bc=1037239547&cn=CV-2016-1571&fmt=pdf


Basically, the Board of Adjustments/City stated that Iron gate is a Public, Civic or Institutional Use for zoning purposes (and therefore needs a special exception) and denied the special exception.  Iron Gate sued and argued that they are a Commercial Use, specifically a restaurant (and can therefore move into most non-R zones, including CBD), and they are not a government entity and so don't fit into any of the subcatagories of Public, Civic and Institutional use.  The City countered that Iron Gate can't be a restaurant because it isn't providing a business service and isn't selling, leasing or renting merchandise but rather providing a service to the community.   The Court sided with Iron Gate (there usually is no published opinion spelling out the "why" in District Court cases).

Here are the relevant categories and sub category from the zoning code:

Quote
35.040 Public, Civic and Institutional Use Category
This category includes public, quasi-public and private uses that provide unique services that are of
benefit to the public at-large. The public, civic and institutional subcategories are as follows.
. . .
35.040-G Governmental Service
Local, state or federal government services or functions that are not otherwise
classified.



Quote
Section 35.050 Commercial Use Category
The commercial use category includes uses that provide a business service or involve the selling,
leasing or renting of merchandise to the general public. The commercial use subcategories are as
follows.
. . .
35.050-K Restaurants and Bars
. . .
2. Restaurant
An establishment that serves food or beverages for on- or off-premise consumption
as its principal business. The preparation and processing of food or
beverages to be served or sold on-site directly to consumers is permitted as an
accessory use to a restaurant, including on-site coffee roasting with a maximum
capacity of 3 kilos. Typical examples of restaurant uses include principal
use restaurants, cafés, cafeterias, ice cream/yogurt shops, donut shops and
coffee shops.
a. Principal Use Restaurant
A restaurant that employs at least one full-time cook, has a menu, a fully
equipped kitchen for cooking and preparation of meals and in which dining,
kitchen and non-service areas occupy at least 75% of the floor area of
the business. A principal use restaurant may include an accessory use bar,
but any bar area that does not meet the definition of an accessory use bar
(Section 95.040) is classified and regulated as a bar.

An appeal to the District Court is basically a do-over (de novo review).  The Court sits in place of the Board and tries to apply the Board's rules along with eh zoning code.  As opposed to trying to find fault with the process (reversible error).   I do not know if/how a District Court ruling on this matter would be appealed to Civ App or otherwise.

Discuss!   :)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: Townsend on September 22, 2017, 11:40:18 am
So if I'm reading that right they'll be baiting homeless people to cross 7th street right where people are coming off of highway 75 at 60 MPH...

Those drivers are looking to merge...not looking for pedestrians.

Those using Iron Gate and driving will be turning into the new property...Carnac the Magnificent sees many collisions.

There's going to be some deaths occurring there.



(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBnz7Kt3myj0kbqiRbc86wkhlkOGLEpu8lLXOnkGYYTCnj5ZIToA)


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: MostSeriousness on September 22, 2017, 12:32:31 pm
The initial proposal (when they released it at an Iron Gate event) had a traffic study that said no risk in the area, with the recommendation of a traffic light at either 7th and Elgin or 7th and Kenosha (don't remember which). No risk would probably not need an additional light, and an additional light right there would be...fun


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: AdamsHall on September 23, 2017, 11:57:50 am
So if I'm reading that right they'll be baiting homeless people to cross 7th street right where people are coming off of highway 75 at 60 MPH...

Those drivers are looking to merge...not looking for pedestrians.

Those using Iron Gate and driving will be turning into the new property...Carnac the Magnificent sees many collisions.

There's going to be some deaths occurring there.

This.  In particular, it will be very ugly in the morning.


Title: Re: Iron Gate
Post by: MostSeriousness on September 26, 2017, 07:37:32 am
Conflicting sites - The Frontier has four or so pegged as 'potentials' per some Open Records Act emails

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/iron-gate-receives-ok-to-build-at-7th-and-kenosha-but-records-show-nonprofit-worked-with-city-county-officials-for-months-to-secure-site-near-tulsa-jail/