I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's. Does anyone have any intel on this project? Is it for real? It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done. Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/
Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.
Quote from: johrasephoenix on August 24, 2015, 03:43:29 PM
I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's. Does anyone have any intel on this project? Is it for real? It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done. Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/
Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.
Santa Fe Square has been mentioned on here several times, but that PDF has far more info that I have seen before, and several new images.
The Ross Group has now gone in with Sager on the First Street Lofts and they also actually get things done.
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.
Hmm. Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.
Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:
Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS2.jpg)
Quote from: gratherton on August 24, 2015, 04:12:35 PM
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.
No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.
OMG! awnings! I love it! ;D
Quote from: gratherton on August 24, 2015, 04:12:35 PM
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.
Looks like they are perhaps turning that into the lobby/entrance/restaurant etc. area for the hotel part behind? Would add some class and history to whatever hotel decided to do that.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 24, 2015, 04:24:02 PM
OMG! awnings! I love it! ;D
Don't worry, they'll run out of money and not include them :( (like the trees that were in the rendering for GreenArch)
Quote from: gratherton on August 24, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
Hmm. Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.
I agree. I wish the apartments would face Greenwood too and have the parking in the middle of the complex. It's cheaper to build it this way however as the parking construction would be more expensive being wrapped with added fire code restrictions, etc.
Looks like they at least intend to make the parking look nice and will have retail on the street level up until Greenwood which will keep it from feeling like a parking garage when you walk past at street level.
Quote from: swake on August 24, 2015, 04:18:09 PM
Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:
Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces
I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.
They could shave the parking in half and be perfectly fine.
Retail is about 80,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio is 240 spaces needed (lets assume you want to keep this allotment the entire day)
Office is 170,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio would be 510 parking spaces needed during business hours weekdays.
Multifamily is 291 apartment = 1.5 ratio (this is what the Cosmopolitan is being constructed at on Riverside/Denver) is 436 spaces needed during evenings/post work hours.
Hotel = 105 rooms, 1 per room is 105 spaces (lets assume you want to keep this allotment for the entire day too)
Max parking needed at one time during the day is office with 510 spaces. Adding the retail is now 750 total spaces. Add the hotel and the total is now 855 spaces.
They are overbuilding parking by about 600 spaces. Which at $25k a space is $15 million. I wouldn't be surprised if this parking garage is over 40% empty the vast majority of the time.
Quote from: gratherton on August 24, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
Hmm. Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.
I saw that and agree Greenwood should have retail fronting it over 1st and 2nd. Overall a great project though and hope low oil prices don't derail it.
The more structured parking the merrier! It drives down the demand for surface parking. Perhaps he is planning for long term development in the area. In that he owns business dependent on street parking, it might be in Nelson's interest to make sure there is ample parking moving forward.
Every time I see this development, I get more excited.
The parking is surely for more than the development but for the entire district and for ball games, etc. It will pay for itself I assume. This would be a game changer if it gets done and if its consistent with the renderings and doesn't end up as an ugly structure nothing like the renderings like the Cimarex tower.
I guess I just don't see the parking problem that everyone else does downtown... maybe I'm crazy.
I do get it's probably the sense that if you build more parking it will spur added development around the district, but and large infill project is going to have parking on site. It will not use this garage and build 200 apartments 3 blocks away. Just not going to happen.
The PAC site will also have a 600 spot parking garage.
You have the City of Tulsa parking garage - which I don't get why it hasn't been renovated to allow for public parking on weekends and nights.
You have the 2 separate parking garages at 4th and Cincinnati that could be operated 24/7 for much cheaper than over building this garage.
These are all in just of close proximity to "encourage" infill development as well. Personally, I'd rather see the parking garage cut in half and add another 50-60 apartments. That would provide way more return than a parking structure ever could. Parking is a revenue loser for any developer, especially at those ratios.
Also, this won't drive down demand for surface lots unless the parking in the garage is cheaper than the surface lots or streets. I've never had a problem finding street parking on the weekends, and why would I pay $5 to park in this garage when I can park for free on the street? Or why would I pay that much when I could pay a few dollars for one of the surface parking lots?
It does seem quite reasonable to have less parking with this development. Don't forget we are also amping up the downtown trolley which will allow for more parking options in other parts of downtown. And very importantly, the main "driver" for retail and desirability in general for downtown is... people walking around. Pedestrian lively streets should be the biggest attraction we are shooting for.
I'll tell the story again of how when Walt Disney was showing a reporter around the underway Disney Land and Walt Said "And just wait till the biggest attraction gets here." The reporter asked "Whats that going to be?" Walt replied "The people!" Walt knew what he was talking about, and it's still true today. Let's not become a smaller lamer version of Dallas with it's parking at every development and nobody out walking.
That rooftoop! :o This is all very exciting.
I wish TulsaNow got 25 cents for every parking discussions - we could form a lobbying arm and make something happen!
I do not think the structured parking will provide parking for other residences. It will basically be parking for the residences attached and businesses therein (hopefully with a validation system). BUT - extra parking would be helpful for big event days. Also, the extra parking could serve as parking for extra vehicles for nearby residences (in-laws in town, that car you only drive on the weekends). Who knows...
But if the developer wants to build more *structured* parking, why try to discourage it? The more public parking garages around, the more likely people are to use them and get comfortable with it.
And yes, it will help drive down demand for surface lots. Like you said, the cheaper and most convenient option will win. How much are Tulsans willing to pay to be a couple of blocks closer? Mine eyes tell me it is $5-20 every time there is an event. A structured garage equals more competition, so the overall price of parking is flat or going down (even as the visitor numbers are going up). If a surface lot can generate $X it makes sense to leave it a surface lot, if it can only generate $Y, I may as well sell it and get my money out now.
Also - not every development can fund structured parking. Its expensive. As the BlueDome and east end continue to prosper, parking and walking a couple of blocks in either direction would be very convenient. The Brady is to the point that parking in the William's garage and walking over the tracks is usually the fastest/least headache inducing option ($2 people!). Nearly all of the space owned by the Equality Center is utilized. ~30 new units going up just across the street. Hodges Bend is almost always bumpin'. We're running out of neat old buildings in that area to convert - with parking available, the confidence to build smaller individual developments should be there (I know, know, there's plenty of parking if you just look for it. But people are lazy.)
Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.
So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on August 24, 2015, 05:45:37 PM
I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.
Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a
minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.
That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).
To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments
and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.
600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!
Quote from: cannon_fodder on August 25, 2015, 08:09:23 AM
Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.
Yes Brickhugger is developing that and it's called the Hartford Building. Not to be confused with the former Hartford Commons—now the Edge—across 2nd Street to the South.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1135757789771796&id=181792495168335
Quote from: dsjeffries on August 25, 2015, 08:28:07 AM
So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.
Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.
That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).
To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.
600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!
I agree, this parking garage is a good thing. I could see it being a central parking hub for the surrounding areas. I would certainly park there for $2-5. This kind of development must accommodate the typical suburban family who want easy parking every time. Street parking will NOT be an option for most everyone after all of the current planned projects are complete. It could be tougher than finding street parking at Brady on a Friday on a regular basis. Having a huge parking garage in the middle of all of this could be a big plus. The majority of the 2 blocks is ground-floor retail to make up for that.
Quote from: swake on August 24, 2015, 04:23:47 PM
No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.
I am glad the plans look like they're preserving the Santa Fe building and adding on to make the hotel. I was concerned such a large new development would start over with a clean slate.
This looks like it could be a $60,000,000+ development (just doing $100/ft2), completely ignoring parking which might be another 36,250,000 (at $25k/space)! So this is a substantial high-dollar development which could be the new anchor of downtown and create the retail/restaurant centerpiece that has been talked about on this board for a long time. $100 million is a huge chunk of the current list of developments! It would be a great addition. Hopefully they can get some popular retailers to move from south Tulsa.
My understanding was Brickhugger was going to do a grocery story and residential development on the Hartford property with minimal parking and this development would provide parking for both. Maybe I misunderstood or mis-remembered since it's been at least 3-4 months since that conversation.
It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown. While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing. As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern). Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G's.
Quote from: DTowner on August 25, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown. While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing. As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern). Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G's.
Good points!
Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).
More structured parking means less surface parking so I'm all for it. We also want suburbanites to come back to the core for dinner and entertainment and they love their cars. Lets do all we can to promote pedestrianism, trolleys, light rail, etc., but understand that there are a large group that will never abandon their cars and we want their money downtown too.
Well now it is really official! Tulsa World article:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/santa-fe-square-to-bring-retail-office-apartments-and-a/article_35ca9da3-d7a9-562e-8a69-4ca43cb562df.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/santa-fe-square-to-bring-retail-office-apartments-and-a/article_35ca9da3-d7a9-562e-8a69-4ca43cb562df.html)
QuoteNelson Stowe developers is relatively new, but the firm has developed, co-developed or planned four residential and retail projects in the downtown area.
It turns out they were getting warmed up for their biggest project.
Santa Fe Square, planned on two full city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, will feature a 600,000 square feet of retail, office space, 291 apartments and a 105-room hotel.
Restauranteur Elliot Nelson, half of Nelson Stowe along with Casey Stowe, said they've partnered with American Residential Group and undisclosed office and hotel developers for the ambitious project, which continues their push to improve downtown Tulsa.
"We're always looking for ways to keep building downtown and make it better, and there's always a need for more retail and living spaces," he said.
Nelson said they'll submit permitting applications to the city soon, in anticipation for an opening by the third or fourth quarter of 2017. They are seeking retail tenants with the help of Walman Commercial Real Estate Services.
The site is currently a large parking lot, save for the shuttered Santa Fe rail depot building on the northwest corner that serves as the site's namesake, Nelson said.
That building will be redeveloped and expanded into a 105-room hotel with an attached bar and restaurant and courtyard in the middle, Nelson said.
The 80,000 square feet of ground-floor retail will be spread over multiple buildings throughout most of the rest of the development, with suites ranging from 1,000 to 40,000 square feet, Nelson said.
The buildings in the development will include a brick-paved pedestrian plaza with a retail arcade, which will run under archways with building space suspended above them.
Nelson said they'd like to attract some restaurants with patio space on the plaza, but their biggest hope is for more shops in the area.
"We've got a good intensity of bars and restaurants in the neighborhood already, so we're looking to diversify," he said.
Additionally, 170,000 square feet of office space for executive or medical use will be on upper floors, Nelson said. He noted new construction of downtown office space has slowed in the last 15 years, other than One Place by the BOK Center.
The 291 apartments, which will also overlook the ground-floor retail, will include a rooftop pool.
Santa Fe will be constructed on what's currently 400 parking spaces and feature a parking garage with 1,450 parking spaces available, Nelson said.
"We want the site to be as dense as possible while still providing parking," he said.
This is the fifth project associated with Nelson Stowe. The group finished renovations on the Coliseum Apartments, 635 S. Elgin Ave., last month. The formerly dilapidated building now features 36 studio apartments.
Nelson Stowe has also partnered with American Residential Group on The Edge, a $26 million, 162-unit development at 215 S. Greenwood Ave. that's under construction now.
The group is also developing The Boxyard, a retail-focused center at the southeast corner of Third Street and Frankfort Avenue that will be built out of over 30 large metal shipping containers. Dwelling Spaces, Joebot's Coffee Bar and Masa restaurant will be the anchor tenants.
Nelson Stowe planned the redevelopment of the Gates Hardware building at 216 N. Elgin Ave. across from ONEOK Field until it was purchased by KSQ Architects, which is now heading the $5.2 million redevelopment.
When that development is finished in September, KSQ will move into the upper floor, while Nelson and Marshall Brewing Co. will open up a brew pub on the ground floor.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 25, 2015, 10:36:12 AM
Good points!
Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).
The small lot west of McNellies is worse IMO, because it's also on Elgin next to the main through route from Blue Dome to the ballpark and Brady District. Also the vacant (but awesome) brick building across the street that is begging to be redeveloped. By activating 1st in that area it makes that redevelopment easier if the property owners are willing (which could be the case).
The plan shows a 28,000 SF retail space on 1st, I wonder what they're targeting there? That's twice as big as a Trader Joe's.
Looking at the rendering again, is the entire eastern half the parking garage with just shallow retail space at the base? I wonder why you wouldn't just wrap the apartments around the parking garage.
Quote from: AdamsHall on August 26, 2015, 09:43:36 AM
You make a good point. I am hopeful this development group is a tad bit more principled/stubborn about their vision/project. That said, I have to wonder if this project will be completed in phases over a number of years.
I think they'll have to do it in phases. Hotel seems like quickest build, then apartments/office space. Then the bigger buildings and parking garage. Will they make some of it part of the Vision package? Will they use TIF?
They say late 2017, but considering the magnitude of the project and funds required (at LEAST $100 million), I'd wager the place won't be ready until 2018 at the earliest.
They partnered with American Residential for at least one project and are partnered again on this. American Residential is really on the ball with downtown stuff so far so lets hope they can get the funding regardless of TIF/Vision proposals. Obviously Nelson has done really well too so we should trust he will keep the project true to plan but when it comes down to saving millions, it will be hard to stick to the elaborate plan.
Keep in mind, Elliot & Casey are current stakeholders downtown and thus far, Elliott has supported and produced quality development which compliments downtown. I'd say he's probably one of the more principled developers in downtown. My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years. That's the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 26, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
Keep in mind, Elliot & Casey are current stakeholders downtown and thus far, Elliott has supported and produced quality development which compliments downtown. I'd say he's probably one of the more principled developers in downtown. My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years. That's the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.
Unless there has been a lot of work done behind the scenes. All parties involved are proven commodities. Downtown residential has been selling gang busters. A hotel brand partnering/contracting would secure that construction cost with no problem. A couple anchor tenants signing a lease before building could secure the office/retail. Then leverage the rest, I guess.
It just seems doubtful that such a well respected developer would announce such an ambitious timeline unless there was reason to believe he could meet it.
Money isn't what will keep this project from being built. The partnerships with the $$ to make it happen are done. It's now up to wether this pre-leases to the level a bank is comfortable with (in today's market can be anywhere from 30% - 80%, depends on the bank and area). If it pre-leases it will be built regardless of what oil prices are doing.
I would like to add I'm very excited about this project even though I did grip about the parking. I just think it could be successful and still act as a catalyst in terms of other development with less parking (closer to 900 spaces vs 1,400).
Also another point there is a huge difference between this project and One Tower. One Tower was a build to suit for a tenant who was in the drivers seat of what they wanted to pay. They wanted it built as cheaply as possible to keep their rental rate down. Which is how we got the stripped down hospital looking version that is there today. Santa Fe Square is a spec development, and tenants will have to pay what they are asking - big big difference. The likelihood of this being built as cheaply as possible like One Tower is 0%.
I am thinking of getting with the people in my part of Downtown in the Deco District to see what their plans are for the area. If they are going to go after retail and restaurant for the ground floors of the building projects that are underway there, I will stay. But if they start putting in office stuff on the ground floor, I will really have to consider leaving. I am working hard to be in a place end of next year so that I can take out a loan and either move to a bigger space and do it right, or branch off a concept or two that is in my store now and do a second location in the same area.
It seems like many of the places in my area are just happy to get anything, office or whatever, and don't seem to be publicly trying to "create" something, retail wise, with any intention.
But again, if the property owners don't push retail/restaurant and instead go for office, (5 or 6 hundred new office workers/residents in my area won't mean a lot for my bottom line, helps surely, but can't get me to being a thriving, growing business) I don't think I will have a choice but to leave and try for perhaps this development in the Blue Dome. Us little guys kind of have to go where the big guys say we can.
It would be very difficult for me if 3 years from now at Christmas (where we make about 40% of our yearly sales) if all the downtown shopping action and promotion is going on in the Blue Dome and I am sitting in a quiet corner in the Deco District full of offices as the lone major retailer.
I've been complaining about One Place from the beginning. I despite that hideous structure. How can anyone see six floors of parking garage and think it's attractive? Even a little bit? I could even get over the boring look of the actual tower, but to put it on top of a very visible massive parking garage is atrocious. I too have become skeptical of pretty drawings after that ridiculous mess. I think I brought up your exact point in the PAC lot conversation.
So was I the only one on here that saw that drawing and knew that wasn't going to happen? Especially that one with the trees on it. No way. It was jut a placeholder thing and I thought it was obvious that would not be what the development actually looked like. Completely unrealistic. The Santa Fe Square thing, thats doable. Its a normal, but very nice for Tulsa, sort of development. But yes, what they have done at one place pretty much makes it a pedestrian dead zone and whatever goes across the street to the north of it will likely be as well. What, would you want to say put a restaurant with an outdoor cafe there so that your customers can all sit and look at THAT! Aaah, Isn't this great sweetie, just like being in Paris.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 26, 2015, 05:15:15 PM
What, would you want to say put a restaurant with an outdoor cafe there so that your customers can all sit and look at THAT! Aaah, Isn't this great sweetie, just like being in Paris.
Paris, TX? Paris, AR?
Quote from: Conan71 on August 26, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years. That's the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.
Elliot has a printing press right across the street from this development.
Quote from: BKDotCom on August 26, 2015, 08:00:13 PM
Elliot has a printing press right across the street from this development.
Well played!
Hampton Inn and flair rarely go together.
(http://i.imgur.com/5zBV6he.jpg)
So someone is finally building Frankfort Square!
The concept rendering is beautiful, I like the scale/height as compared to the rest of the Blue Dome structures and despite the mayor of blue dome title hung on Sager, Elliot is the true pioneer here.
I googled trying to find a neat, cool, interesting, or unique Hampton Inn.. all the results pretty much looked the same. Shades of beige. Some minor variations if you search "downtown Hampton Inn..." they all look nice, just wouldn't describe it as having flair.
https://www.google.com/search?q=neat+hampton+inn&safe=active&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMI7_3Z14HKxwIVz46SCh1GNwO0&dpr=2.5#safe=active&tbm=isch&q=downtown+hampton+inn
Does anyone know who the Architect on the project is?
Selser-Schaefer is the architecture firm working on Santa Fe Square.
Additional renderings:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/21578255843_1c78f345c8_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/753/22011213540_b4908e6218_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/712/22011497288_53a4eb87f8_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/617/22011217170_8c69557339_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/707/22011503048_4f8e70cae3_z.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5682/22012409449_d7655c6b24_z.jpg)
If it approaches that rendering, very cool!
Quote from: cannon_fodder on October 15, 2015, 03:03:48 PM
If it approaches that rendering, very cool!
Agree. I like it. I like it a lot.
This is beautiful. Seems incongruous to Arnie's (which I love).
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/21578255843_1c78f345c8_c.jpg)
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.
Quote
Quick Facts:
Santa Fe Square is a $160 million downtown development for Tulsa
Needs city support to move forward
Plan would bring office space, shopping, up to 300 apartments, and a boutique hotel
It would fill the parking lot between 1st and 2nd street, and Greenwood and Elgin in downtown Tulsa
Developers of the Santa Fe Square proposed for downtown Tulsa say they need city support to move forward.
The $160 million plan includes office space, shopping, apartments and a boutique hotel. It'd be built in the parking lot between 1st and 2nd street and Greenwood and Elgin in downtown Tulsa.
A city council review committee approved creating a tax increment district, meaning the city would pay the developer up to $36 million in property taxes earned there over the next 25 years. The plan would not create any debt for the city.
City council has to approve the district, and will hold two public hearings before that, the first on March 31st.
The developer, Nelson and Stowe Development, said it can't move forward without the city's help.
Councilors support the project, saying the space would be just as attractive as Guthrie Green in the Brady District.
The developer hopes to have the office space completed sometime in 2017.
http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254
Quote from: swake on March 03, 2016, 12:42:40 PM
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.
http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254
Will all this come with a $36 million guarantee that we won't experience the disappointment we seem to feel every time we get excited about a development?
Quote from: swake on March 03, 2016, 12:42:40 PM
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.
http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254
That seems like a really big ask. Is this purposefully intended to get rejected so the developer can blame the city and not his inability to attract financing and/or tenants as the reason for shelving the project?
In truth, it is hard for me to get excited about any of these announced projects. Unless and until the Tulsa/Oklahoma economy makes a major rebound, I just don't see anything major actually happening that has not already broken ground or is funded by GKFF.
So basically Casey and Elliot came up $36M short from their investors.
Tax increment finance districts are generally supposed to only be able to pay for public infrastructure improvements. A good example of what is allowed is running a public road through a development, stormwater management, or sewer work.
They are not supposed to finance construction, leasehold improvements, nor incentives to lure tenants. This was made really clear in working out the TIF for Horizon Group for their outlet mall project.
On the one hand, I give Elliot a lot of credit for the renaissance of downtown. He was there early on, taking big risks and coming within an inch of tanking entirely. I also like the idea of creating density.
HOWEVER- The main economic selling point of density and infill is it is a tremendous revenue boon with sales and property tax concentrated in a very small footprint as compared to sprawling suburban style development. I don't think there is $36M worth of public infrastructure to be gained there unless they are planning to provide free multi-level parking. You could make a stretch and say that was public infrastructure. If structured parking there meant we could lose another block or so of surface parking, that could be worth the investment.
I'd be curious to see the ask first hand.
/edited to add: Basically the developers are asking for $1.44 million a year tax abatement if i understand correctly. Considering the property currently pays $19,994 a year in property taxes there's little doubt the improvements will increase assessed property taxes. The only other property I could think of downtown which would be similar in value or space was the Williams Center. Basically total tax revenue on it is $1.32M from Boulder to Cincinnati. Total assessed value of those parcels is $89.2M. So, I guess it would be reasonable to expect maybe $2.5 to $2.6 million a year in property tax on Santa Fe Square. Doesn't look quite so bad put in that perspective.
Quote from: DTowner on March 03, 2016, 02:21:10 PM
That seems like a really big ask. Is this purposefully intended to get rejected so the developer can blame the city and not his inability to attract financing and/or tenants as the reason for shelving the project?
In truth, it is hard for me to get excited about any of these announced projects. Unless and until the Tulsa/Oklahoma economy makes a major rebound, I just don't see anything major actually happening that has not already broken ground or is funded by GKFF.
Yeah, that is a big ask. With the oil downturn, they might see it as the only way to get it done soon. They have a lot going on and are probably already seeing demand drop for leases.
They are asking for a discount of about $1,440,000 per year for 25 years. That is as much tax that the BOK Tower, the Hyatt and the 320 S Boston building pay combined and those have over 2,060,000 square feet as opposed to the 600,000 square feet of Santa Fe Square. I see empty store fronts all over downtown at pretty low prices and office space is easy to come by very cheaply. I don't see how this make sense economically for Tulsa.
It is a really awesome development and I hope it gets done, but I would not want taxpayers to pay that much. If it is put on hold, they can focus on the Boxyard and see if they can get a neat shopping hub going on a small scale first and use that to lure bigger investors.
I think its a great development but I wonder what the rational is for this one getting the Tiff and other new ones downtown not?
If its done as planned, it appears to be a high quality one compared to many I see so that is an added plus. And if they do have parking that can be used by everyone in the district that can also be a plus. As for the infrastructure component of a tiff in new areas, that is one of the great things about infill is that it will not add more streets for the city to maintain and this type of mixed use density can help transit, biking, walking, etc work better. And this development could be a game changer for downtown really setting the tone and upping the pedestrian fabric of downtown.
But, the building I am in is paying property taxes and my shop by default is paying for it, and indeed there are still empty store fronts all around. So I hope this development won't have their retail spots be able to be cheaper because they are not paying the taxes. That wouldn't really be fair to me and the vacant spots and buildings being redone around me.
Would really like to hear from some of the developers and other property owners to see what their take is.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 03, 2016, 03:59:07 PM
Yeah, that is a big ask. With the oil downturn, they might see it as the only way to get it done soon. They have a lot going on and are probably already seeing demand drop for leases.
They are asking for a discount of about $1,440,000 per year for 25 years. That is as much tax that the BOK Tower, the Hyatt and the 320 S Boston building pay combined and those have over 2,060,000 square feet as opposed to the 600,000 square feet of Santa Fe Square. I see empty store fronts all over downtown at pretty low prices and office space is easy to come by very cheaply. I don't see how this make sense economically for Tulsa.
It is a really awesome development and I hope it gets done, but I would not want taxpayers to pay that much. If it is put on hold, they can focus on the Boxyard and see if they can get a neat shopping hub going on a small scale first and use that to lure bigger investors.
This TIF request is paying for 100% of the value of the parking structure ~1,200 x $30,000 = ~$36 million. This was my only complaint about the development that they are WAY WAY over building the parking garage. I know everyone says this will help other lots be infilled - but all of those developments are still going to want their own parking. I will bet anyone that this parking garage will sit 40% empty almost everyday even when this development is fully leased and all the surrounding lots are developed.
Now for everyone who can't justify the demand for this project. I think you were the one who said before "but there are vacant signs EVERYWHERE downtown" that is just not true. Please tell me where all these vacant retail spaces are? And tell me who is actively marketing them? Are there vacant "storefronts" yes, like the Sinclair building - but no one can exactly open up a shop there can they? You have to have a willing owner wanting to lease the space. Class A office space is non existent downtown. There's one block in City Hall, and the floor plates there are an acre - that would be difficult to find tenants for in Dallas, let alone Tulsa. There is a decent amount of Class B space in First Place (Kanbar) but really that's the only large chunk of B space available downtown. The rest is in C buildings. That's not indicative of demand, it just means we have a lot of tired buildings that will be repurposed to apartments and hotels soon. There is a huge need for new Class A office space downtown, even with oil prices low.
This TIF has been making its way through the city for months now, they are on the last sign off part which I believe is getting the ok from the school district. Once they have that this project is probably 2-3 months max from breaking ground. There's been a lot of pre-leasing interest (believe they have multiple contracts on both retail and office portions), it has financing in place, a multifamily developer partner in place, a hotel developer partner in place, and is a few weeks from closing on the land. This project is 95% going to happen. It's no pipe dream, and they certainly aren't asking for a TIF to use as an excuse to shelve the project - it's been in the works since they announced the project publicly.
Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 03, 2016, 06:52:25 PM
Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.
Aside from Tulsa Hills being a complete traffic nightmare and typical of every last thing that is wrong with suburban sprawl and its lack of sustainability, what is bad about the TH TIF?
By most accounts, that TIF accomplished what the original intent of TIFs were: to anchor development, re-development, or help give an area an economic jump-start. The area is not my idea of utopia, but it has accomplished those goals and my understanding is it is being repaid well ahead of schedule.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 03, 2016, 06:52:25 PM
This TIF request is paying for 100% of the value of the parking structure ~1,200 x $30,000 = ~$36 million. This was my only complaint about the development that they are WAY WAY over building the parking garage. I know everyone says this will help other lots be infilled - but all of those developments are still going to want their own parking. I will bet anyone that this parking garage will sit 40% empty almost everyday even when this development is fully leased and all the surrounding lots are developed.
Now for everyone who can't justify the demand for this project. I think you were the one who said before "but there are vacant signs EVERYWHERE downtown" that is just not true. Please tell me where all these vacant retail spaces are? And tell me who is actively marketing them? Are there vacant "storefronts" yes, like the Sinclair building - but no one can exactly open up a shop there can they? You have to have a willing owner wanting to lease the space. Class A office space is non existent downtown. There's one block in City Hall, and the floor plates there are an acre - that would be difficult to find tenants for in Dallas, let alone Tulsa. There is a decent amount of Class B space in First Place (Kanbar) but really that's the only large chunk of B space available downtown. The rest is in C buildings. That's not indicative of demand, it just means we have a lot of tired buildings that will be repurposed to apartments and hotels soon. There is a huge need for new Class A office space downtown, even with oil prices low.
This TIF has been making its way through the city for months now, they are on the last sign off part which I believe is getting the ok from the school district. Once they have that this project is probably 2-3 months max from breaking ground. There's been a lot of pre-leasing interest (believe they have multiple contracts on both retail and office portions), it has financing in place, a multifamily developer partner in place, a hotel developer partner in place, and is a few weeks from closing on the land. This project is 95% going to happen. It's no pipe dream, and they certainly aren't asking for a TIF to use as an excuse to shelve the project - it's been in the works since they announced the project publicly.
Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.
Well, sounds like a good deal for downtown and again I think it is well designed. As for vacant retail, right across from me they have space in the Philcade on the ground floor between Mods and the Deco District Shops where some IBM offices once were. The Vandever building right next to Jimmy Johns has had signs up for lease for quite a while. Had some downtown realtors try to get me into that space actually but I wanted the high ceilings in the space I have now. And I think there are several other spaces on 5th that have been for lease for years now. My old space is available lol. Someone with a little money could go in there and do it nice inside it would still be a good spot. Heck, they would have an instant customer base for it seems like there are still a lot of people who come into my new store saying they stopped by the old one first not realizing we had moved lol.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 03, 2016, 07:42:18 PM
Aside from Tulsa Hills being a complete traffic nightmare and typical of every last thing that is wrong with suburban sprawl and its lack of sustainability, what is bad about the TH TIF?
By most accounts, that TIF accomplished what the original intent of TIFs were: to anchor development, re-development, or help give an area an economic jump-start. The area is not my idea of utopia, but it has accomplished those goals and my understanding is it is being repaid well ahead of schedule.
My complaint with the Tulsa Hills TIF is because the main reason it was needed is because of the poor site selection of the developer. When you have to plow the top off a "mountain" and install infrastructure it's a lot of money. We were about to do the same thing for Simon by Turkey Mountain. What's more economically difficult to do a strip/power center or an urban mixed use development? If Tulsa Hills has been built more dense I would have less of an issue. Have apartments above the retail and made Olympia Avenue more of a "main street" type environment and the TIF would have made more sense to me. I think we wasted public investment on a sub par development that would have require less money if they had found somewhere else on the westside that didn't have an extreme elevation challenge. I will say it at least it making the projections to pay off the TIF, so could be much worse. Santa Fe Square will be an investment that is alive and well producing income for the city for well past 30 years. Tulsa Hills? It won't. In 30 years there will be a new power center in Glenpool with Target, Lowe's, Belk, and Sam's that will be the new shopping center for SW Tulsa and Tulsa Hills will be much like Southroads, Fontana, or Eton Square. It will have an extremely short shelf life of producing any significant amount of revenue for the city.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 03, 2016, 08:06:20 PM
Well, sounds like a good deal for downtown and again I think it is well designed. As for vacant retail, right across from me they have space in the Philcade on the ground floor between Mods and the Deco District Shops where some IBM offices once were. The Vandever building right next to Jimmy Johns has had signs up for lease for quite a while. Had some downtown realtors try to get me into that space actually but I wanted the high ceilings in the space I have now. And I think there are several other spaces on 5th that have been for lease for years now. My old space is available lol. Someone with a little money could go in there and do it nice inside it would still be a good spot. Heck, they would have an instant customer base for it seems like there are still a lot of people who come into my new store saying they stopped by the old one first not realizing we had moved lol.
Those are a few space (I've walked by all of them as I live downtown). In a grand scale, those chopped up pieces of retail don't equal large amounts of vacancy and there's only a very small amount of retail tenants that would even be interested (more local shop people like yourself). Santa Fe Square is a completely different market of urban retail for downtown that is not available now. More retail, the more people will be walking around. Density builds on density and will ultimately be a great things for the local shops. The biggest block of retail space available downtown is in the Cimarex building, I think there's still maybe 15,000 sq. ft. on the backside interior that probably will never be leased due to the bad design of the building (no courtyard, no visibility to the street, etc.) not because of the market. The rest of the spaces are just small one off spaces in a bunch of random different properties. We need some new, bigger developments with the ability to draw in retailers like Santa Fe Square or the PAC lot development can.
Some things:
TIF money is not only meant for infrastructure improvements like new roads.... in fact I would hesitate to use it for that purpose in most instances. If our goal is to encourage infill then development should require minimal new infrastructure investment.
In my experience, TIF money is primarily an economic development tool in neighborhoods where the market isn't strong enough to spur development on its own. Much of downtown Tulsa fits this criteria perfectly. For instance, I used to live in Uptown, Chicago, an area struggling with poverty and retail vacancy. The city used $68 million in TIF funds to develop 100+ affordable homes and an urban format Target over an abandoned railyard fronting a street of vacant storefronts (Wilson Yards TIF). That investment has served as a catalyst for a struggling community.
When looking at this project there are two things you need to consider when deciding whether or not to proceed:
a) How much will property tax in the TIF district increase in the absence of this development? This increase is the revenue the city will be forfeiting (and given the current tax rate on surface parking in Tulsa its not that much $$$).
b) Are this project's positive externalities greater than the tax revenue the city forgoes (ie, future increases in property tax absent the development). This can be monetary (does this development encourage new businesses, residents, development elsewhere?). It can also be qualitative - and I think this is the most important. The Blue Dome and Brady Districts are the standard bearers for downtown's resurgence. This project makes a statement that downtown is back. It also removes a gaping hole in the city's urban fabric, it gives Tulsa a beautiful building it can be proud of, and potentially brings hundreds of new residents and workers to what is now an eyesore. If Santa Fe Square, the Edge at East Village, Urban 8, and whatever is going on the Hartford Building all get built then all of a sudden we have a real, viable urban district. You could walk all the way from Hodges Bend to the BOK Tower and have the entire experience feel like you were in the urban core of a real city.
Last point: everything Elliot Nelson has touched so far turns to gold. I'm willing to knock a point or two off my IRR calculations for the city in return for his magic urban fairy dust.
I think this is the most valuable land in Tulsa and you can wait out for privately financed development. The East Village wrap around is inevitable.
Quote from: davideinstein on March 03, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
I think this is the most valuable land in Tulsa and you can wait out for privately financed development. The East Village wrap around is inevitable.
It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.
This is an excellent development. Let's do it.
Quote from: swake on March 03, 2016, 10:51:24 PM
It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.
This is an excellent development. Let's do it.
Let's agree to the amount with the conditions that the TIF is canceled if project is not completed as designed in two years including all streetscaping according to the area plan on the streets surrounding the development (both sides) and that they set aside 10% of the units to be affordable.
Question on the last point - does Tulsa have an inclusionary zoning policy?
Quote from: johrasephoenix on March 04, 2016, 08:49:08 AM
Question on the last point - does Tulsa have an inclusionary zoning policy?
I don't know, but with a PUD asking for a TIF, everything should be on the table.
Quote from: swake on March 04, 2016, 08:50:57 AM
I don't know, but with a PUD asking for a TIF, everything should be on the table.
The moment a developer requests that tax payers give a direct subsidy to their development, the public has a right to scrutinize the project and require their input be considered on the final product...or lack thereof.
Quote from: swake on March 03, 2016, 10:51:24 PM
It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.
This is an excellent development. Let's do it.
Agreed and the current Blue Dome TIF is expiring. I don't see the problem here. This project once complete will drive even more development in the Blue Dome and East Village.
I don't have the energy to crunch the numbers, but this development will be a game changer. It'll truly transform downtown and specifically the Blue Dome, Greenwood, and East Village, since it's right at the intersection of all three districts. There's a limit to the amount of tax incentives for projects that is reasonable, but this one is worth it if it is even remotely reasonable.
I hope it turns out to be as great as everyone seems to hope.
"At least it not parking lots anymore." is not what I want to think after it's done.
In any case, at least it won't be parking lots anymore.
Quote from: Townsend on March 10, 2016, 12:43:14 PM
I hope it turns out to be as great as everyone seems to hope.
"At least it not parking lots anymore." is not what I want to think after it's done.
In any case, at least it won't be parking lots anymore.
But that's not quite as bad as "At least it's not trees and rocks anymore"
Quote from: Conan71 on March 10, 2016, 12:53:08 PM
But that's not quite as bad as "At least it's not trees and rocks anymore"
Easy...you might get yourself elected mayor.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 10, 2016, 12:53:08 PM
But that's not quite as bad as "At least it's not trees and rocks anymore"
This reminded me of the song "(Nothing But) Flowers" by the Talking Heads.
This development will be a real jewel for Tulsa.
QuoteTulsa Mayor's Office Signs Off On East Village Development
TULSA, Oklahoma - The $150 million Santa Fe Square development project in Tulsa's East Village officially will move forward.
The city council approved the area between First and Second Streets and Elgin and Greenwood as a Tax Increment Finance District, and the mayor's office signed off on that Friday.
With the TIF district official, the developers behind the project can move ahead with finalized plans that will include a hotel, retail and office space, apartments and a parking garage.
An exact timetable for groundbreaking is still up in the air, but hopes are sometime this year.
http://www.newson6.com/story/31744196/tulsa-mayors-office-signs-off-on-east-village-development
Awesome, this is huge news. I really expected this one to slip through the cracks. It's almost too good to be true.
We say it a lot, but it really feels like this project is a true momentum changer for downtown.
Between this and the Nordam property we are about to see another huge jump forward for our downtown.
.
TPS has approved the TIF now as well.
Don't think we can say enough how big time this is.
Quote from: sooneralum2012 on April 19, 2016, 04:44:43 PM
Don't think we can say enough how big time this is.
A true big time development:
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)
Been entertaining the idea of opening another store downtown but those spaces are too big to be a secondary store for me.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 19, 2016, 07:05:23 PM
Been entertaining the idea of opening another store downtown but those spaces are too big to be a secondary store for me.
Gift shop in the hotel
sorry if this has been mentioned before, but is the parking garage going to have public parking? Or is it just for residents. I don't mind either way but from discussions with my friends they all seemed to be a bit bitchy the lot was going away. A little shortsighted in my opinion, but would be nice if there was public parking nevertheless.
Quote from: sooneralum2012 on April 20, 2016, 11:11:56 AM
sorry if this has been mentioned before, but is the parking garage going to have public parking? Or is it just for residents. I don't mind either way but from discussions with my friends they all seemed to be a bit bitchy the lot was going away. A little shortsighted in my opinion, but would be nice if there was public parking nevertheless.
It said it will have public parking along with reserved parking for hotel guests, tenants and offices. 1300 parking spaces should typically be plenty for this development and the Blue Dome District.
Quote from: Laramie on April 19, 2016, 04:57:07 PM
A true big time development:
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)
This is great news along with the PAC development. Imagine how different downtown would be with these places built, occupied and a completely filled in stretch of development connecting the East Village to Blue Dome to the Deco District. Then, once the Center of the Universe hub is built, (along with OKPOP and other stuff around there) the Brady district will be more connected and we will have a strong semblance of a downtown with a real urban core.
The Nordam village will add to this along with the Boxyard. I am excited to see what downtown will look like in about 3-5 years! Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
I am excited to see what downtown will look like in about 3-5 years! Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2011/12/30/44/e4/DSC04025.JPG)
Quote from: Townsend on April 20, 2016, 12:35:07 PM
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2011/12/30/44/e4/DSC04025.JPG)
I said 3-5 years, not 10-15 years! ;D
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.
Urban 8 is for sale, as is the ugly little Bumgarner development near the BOK Center.
Quote from: swake on April 20, 2016, 01:13:46 PM
Urban 8 is for sale, as is the ugly little Bumgarner development near the BOK Center.
Was that Bumgarner or Westervelt?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 20, 2016, 01:36:30 PM
Was that Bumgarner or Westervelt?
Actually, it was both:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html
Quote from: swake on April 20, 2016, 02:10:07 PM
Actually, it was both:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html
Marriage made in developer Hell.
Is the main facade of this development facing the corner of 1st and Greenwood or 2nd and Elgin?
Quote from: NotRobertMoses on September 07, 2016, 01:10:43 PM
Is the main facade of this development facing the corner of 1st and Greenwood or 2nd and Elgin?
2nd & Elgin. The parking garage is along Greenwood between 1st and 2nd.
Quote from: SXSW on September 07, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
2nd & Elgin. The parking garage is along Greenwood between 1st and 2nd.
Doesn't improve the view to the NW much from Urban8 or the Edge (pending renderings of course).
For the past 2-3 weeks I've notice a drilling rig working around the parking lot. Does anyone know if this is core sampling or some other activity related to Santa Fe Square, or just somebody who thinks drilling holes in a parking lot is fun?
Quote from: DTowner on September 08, 2016, 01:50:38 PM
For the past 2-3 weeks I've notice a drilling rig working around the parking lot. Does anyone know if this is core sampling or some other activity related to Santa Fe Square, or just somebody who thinks drilling holes in a parking lot is fun?
Typically, they do core samples to see what kind of soil is there so they can design the foundation and change up the soil composition if needed. I would guess that is what they are doing. Good sign that the project is moving forward, but also a very early step.
Here's a tenant announcement, though I think the 5000 square feet for a seven story hotel is a misprint:
QuoteHotel Indigo coming to Santa Fe Square in downtown Tulsa
Photo gallery: 25 downtown development projects you should know about
Hotel Indigo, a national boutique hotel brand, is headed for Santa Fe Square in downtown Tulsa, developer Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC said Friday.
The seven-story, 5,000-square-foot hotel will be along Elgin Avenue between First and Second streets. It will be part of the mixed-use development at Santa Fe Square from Nelson Stowe, which has been billed by some as "really going to shift the needle."
The plan is to break ground on the hotel in the spring of 2017.
"My business partners and I had great success with the Fairfield Inn & Suites in the Brady Arts District that we sought out another opportunity in a similar area not currently being served by a hotel," said Jeff Hartman, part of the ownership group and owner of SJS Hospitality, which will manage the hotel.
The hotel will feature a 1,500-square-foot meeting room, an upscale restaurant and bar with a private dining area and a state-of-the-art fitness studio. Guest rooms will have balconies that look out on ONEOK Field or on the Tulsa skyline. Patrons will have access to Santa Fe Square's 1,100-space parking garage.
The Hotel Indigo brand bills itself as being unique to each city that it's in, according to its website. It's a high-end brand and most of its dozens of locations in the U.S. are in large cities or their wealthy suburbs.
"Understanding the downtown market, we wanted to offer a product that is unique to Tulsa and integrated into the district," Hartman said.
"With Hotel Indigo, no two properties are the same and each one draws on the story of the local area to inspire every aspect of the hotel from intriguing design to distinctive local ingredients."
The hotel is the opening salvo in the Santa Fe Square development, which was announced about a year ago. The development will replace what's now a parking lot guarded by the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, which will be repurposed.
SJS Hospitality is a partnership among Hartman and Steve and Spike Ehrhardt. The group owns four hotels in metro Tulsa.
Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC's ownership group includes Hartman, Greg Oilphant and David Sharp.
GH2 Hospitality Architects is designing the project, which will built by Clark Construction with financing from Valley National Bank.
Samuel Hardiman 918-581-8466
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html
Quote from: Conan71 on September 09, 2016, 03:02:42 PM
Here's a tenant announcement, though I think the 5000 square feet for a seven story hotel is a misprint:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html
It looks like each floor will be 5,000 square feet.
QuotePatrons will have access to Santa Fe Square's 1,100-space parking garage.
When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2 blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2016, 03:20:37 PM
It looks like each floor will be 5,000 square feet.
When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2 blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.
I see the World revised their figure after I'd posted that. A valet is always an option to cater to the lazy people.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2016, 03:20:37 PM
When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2 blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.
The current area is a parking lot. They're putting a hotel on the parking lot. It's going to be too far to walk from the parking lot to the hotel built on the parking lot?
Distance between Elgin and Greenwood: 750 feet:
Distance from Woodland Hills food court entrance to outer parking space 590 ft
It appears that it's 300 feet from the parking garage's elevators to the hotel.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf
The subject of walkability is mentioned twice in the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=story). However, the Hotel Indigo rendering published with the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World story (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=image&photo=0) appears to show a pedestrian environment which is less friendly than the Santa Fe Square development drawings from about two years ago (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf).
The Santa Fe Square drawings show the public sidewalk along the east side of Elgin protected with back-in angled parking and trees. The Hotel Indigo rendering shows the public sidewalk interrupted by large curb cuts.
The Santa Fe Square drawings show a patio to the west of the hotel, with outdoor seating, tables, and umbrellas. The Hotel Indigo rendering shows a vehicular drop-off area at that location, with no outdoor tables and chairs, and with no curb ramps for pedestrians or wheelchairs.
The Santa Fe Square drawings and the Hotel Indigo rendering show an on-site private street between the hotel and the office building, but the roadway appears to be much wider in the Hotel Indigo rendering, with approximately seven fewer curbside parking spaces than were shown on the Santa Fe Square drawings (about two fewer on the north side of the private street and about five fewer on the east side of Elgin).
At ground level on the site, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows eight motor vehicles and eight pedestrians. On the 100 block of South Elgin, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows seven or eight motor vehicles using the public street, but only three pedestrians on the adjacent public sidewalk.
The hotel drop off was originally shown as part of the existing building at 1st & Elgin, is that building still part of edge hotel or is it just the new building? I prefer if there is a drop off that it is on 1st instead of Elgin.
Quote from: BKDotCom on September 09, 2016, 05:02:57 PM
The current area is a parking lot. They're putting a hotel on the parking lot. It's going to be too far to walk from the parking lot to the hotel built on the parking lot?
Distance between Elgin and Greenwood: 750 feet:
Distance from Woodland Hills food court entrance to outer parking space 590 ft
It appears that it's 300 feet from the parking garage's elevators to the hotel.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf
300 feet is great, however if they had to park at the back of the lot and were staying in middle/front of hotel it would be closer to 600-700 feet). I was just curious because the rendering has changed and didn't know how far that would be. Plus, a big upscale hotel developer is going to push what their clientele will want (and likely get concessions based on history). Bamboo posted a list of ways in which the new rendering is already significantly worse in terms of walkability. I don't think it was too far either way, personally (and for sake of downtown getting rid of so much parking).
Quote from: Bamboo World on September 09, 2016, 08:03:50 PM
The subject of walkability is mentioned twice in the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=story). However, the Hotel Indigo rendering published with the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World story (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=image&photo=0) appears to show a pedestrian environment which is less friendly than the Santa Fe Square development drawings from about two years ago (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf).
The Santa Fe Square drawings show the public sidewalk along the east side of Elgin protected with back-in angled parking and trees. The Hotel Indigo rendering shows the public sidewalk interrupted by large curb cuts.
The Santa Fe Square drawings show a patio to the west of the hotel, with outdoor seating, tables, and umbrellas. The Hotel Indigo rendering shows a vehicular drop-off area at that location, with no outdoor tables and chairs, and with no curb ramps for pedestrians or wheelchairs.
The Santa Fe Square drawings and the Hotel Indigo rendering show an on-site private street between the hotel and the office building, but the roadway appears to be much wider in the Hotel Indigo rendering, with approximately seven fewer curbside parking spaces than were shown on the Santa Fe Square drawings (about two fewer on the north side of the private street and about five fewer on the east side of Elgin).
At ground level on the site, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows eight motor vehicles and eight pedestrians. On the 100 block of South Elgin, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows seven or eight motor vehicles using the public street, but only three pedestrians on the adjacent public sidewalk.
Good call. I couldn't identify what the differences were exactly, but the new rendering looked much less walkable and more like a car drop-off area not designed for pedestrians. With as little info as they have in the renderings, it's a big loss for pedestrian-friendly development. Too late! Already got the TIFF.
Just like with the "development" across from BOK Center, they promise a lot, get your tax money and then deliver a much cheaper-looking less-walkable generic product with a chain-hotel that is good enough but not great. Would the One Place Tower and copy-paste hotel going in next to it excite people like the original renderings that showed interesting buildings with a bustling courtyard? (See: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20324.msg276577#msg276577 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20324.msg276577#msg276577) - Note announced in 2010 and still not finished 6 years later)
I guess they're taking a bit from art of the deal: "Play to people's fantasies". We should be thankful for the opportunity to put millions into the developers' pockets and rejoice when the plain buildings and monolithic garage are finished in 5-10 years along with this upscale hotel we will never use. It will all be worth it when the Blue Dome starts to feel a bit like the unique urban paradise at 2nd and Cheyenne!
It looks like the old Santa Fe Depot at 1st & Elgin is part of the hotel, will there be rooms there or is that where the meeting space will be? Hopefully when the designs go in for planning review they can force the drop off to be on the north side
Quote from: SXSW on September 09, 2016, 10:09:49 PM
The hotel drop off was originally shown as part of the existing building at 1st & Elgin...
...I prefer if there is a drop off that it is on 1st instead of Elgin.
I'm not sure why the drop-off was changed from 1st to Elgin, or if it's supposed to be a second drop-off for the hotel.
Regardless, curb cuts for hotel drop-offs are not best practice for increasing walkability. A drop-off lane would be better at the curb, and one could work quite well on First Street (converted to two-way traffic).
From
Walkable City, page 184:
Quote
Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now* is to simply not allow any new ones. Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane. In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way. To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.
*now = 2012, as opposed to the 1970s
Source:
Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728), for sale online or locally at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.
The Santa Fe Square development drawings published about two years ago show the hotel set back about 55 feet from the property line along Elgin, which is a large setback on an urban street. The drawings show a courtyard with tables and chairs in that setback, but the Hotel Indigo rendering published last week shows curb cuts for a drop-off there instead of an outdoor dining area. That design revision lowers the walkability factor -- significantly.
The proposed Hotel Indigo drop-off area is a suburban, auto-centric idea, very much like the setback for Jackson Technical, currently under construction five blocks south of the Santa Fe Square site.
It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint. Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door. Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot. What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side. If they kept the curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash. (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)
Quote from: rebound on September 12, 2016, 05:08:54 PM
It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint. Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door. Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot. What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side. If they kept the curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash. (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)
Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Quote
Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now is to simply not allow any new ones. Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane. In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way. To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.
Source:
Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728) by Jeff Speck, page 184. The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.
A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel. A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.
Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved
tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways. Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets. Walkability will be
reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be
reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.
*Many people would describe the author of
Walkable City as
the expert on walkability. The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month. What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion. If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed. If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.
Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn't even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 12, 2016, 07:55:21 PM
Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn't even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.
I chose those two examples because they're local and have about the same number of rooms as the proposed Hotel Indigo. The 220-room Holiday Inn at 7th & Boulder doesn't need two curb cuts for its drop-off, either. If its canopy extended a bit farther south, the drop-off could be handled curbside there, too.
In my opinion, the least pedestrian-friendly hotel drop-offs downtown are:
1. The Doubletree on Seventh Street.
2. The Hyatt Regency on Second Street.
3. The Fairfield Inn on Main Street.
I can understand the need for covered drop-off areas at the Doubletree and the Hyatt, but the 102-room Fairfield Inn is relatively small. The Fairfield's curb cut and driveway have special textured paving. It's dangerous when wet because it's as slick as snot. Regular concrete would be so much better and safer. No curb cut on Main at all would have been even better.
Urban hotels don't need a curb cut. This isn't the past where cabs needed a place to idle. Just don't have meters in front for the "drop off" area. People driving can valet there, and everyone else can pick up their uber/lyft there.
New Halcyon Hotel in Denver - 155 rooms and no curb cut for the drop off
(https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/Vjx4lI0bVE1g6Xd8zz5x9A/ls.jpg)
Quote from: Bamboo World on September 12, 2016, 06:39:41 PM
Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Source: Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728) by Jeff Speck, page 184. The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.
A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel. A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.
Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways. Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets. Walkability will be reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.
*Many people would describe the author of Walkable City as the expert on walkability. The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month. What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion. If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed. If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.
I was being a little sarcastic (snide? tounge-in-cheek? not sure...) with my "not an expert" comment, as I had already read your earlier post. I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicate no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building. (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice. They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)
My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side. If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability. Of course there is room for improvement. However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side. It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.
Quote from: rebound on September 13, 2016, 08:46:01 AM
I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicated no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building. (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice. They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)
My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side. If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability. Of course there is room for improvement.
Yes, there's room for improvement. I'm comparing the proposed design for the Elgin Avenue side published just last week to the previous design for Santa Fe Square that has been shown for the past two years. In terms of walkability, the newer version is worse than the older version.
Quote from: rebound on September 13, 2016, 08:46:01 AM
However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side. It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.
It depends on what's going on inside the hotel and where. If there's an event scheduled for a room in the older portion of the building on the north, a First Street drop-off would be handy. If it's guests going to their rooms, an Elgin Avenue drop off might be handy. A drop-off on the private street south of the hotel might work, too.
My point was about the emphasis on the "walkability factor" mentioned in the
Tulsa World article last week. The revised design, at least along Elgin Avenue, is much less walkable than the design that has been promoted for the past two years, showing a patio with outdoor dining on the west side, not another curb cut for a drop-off. In my opinion, there's no need to give lip service to walkability and then design something that's not pedestrian friendly. That's silly. Curb cuts for urban hotel drop-offs reduce walkability. The design for Hotel Indigo published last week is a suburban idea, not urban. It's not pedestrian-friendly.
Canopies can extend out toward the curb, so a covered drop-off would be possible on Elgin. Another covered drop-off would be possible at the curb on First Street, but it would work much better with First as a two-way.
From the TW about Class A office space..
QuoteThe proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon.. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.
"Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction," Reese said. "That's just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, 'The boats are floating, but we're not going anyway.'
"But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong."
http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html?mode=jqm)
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?
Quote from: johrasephoenix on November 12, 2016, 10:38:20 PM
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?
I would guess it would be a bit of both. Class A space, per the article, has a vacancy rate of 4.5% so there is demand. If new companies wanted Class A space they don't have a lot of options, especially new "Class AA" product wired for the latest technology with large open plans, amenities and located in an urban mixed-use development like Santa Fe Square.
Quote from: johrasephoenix on November 12, 2016, 10:38:20 PM
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?
And even if it is shuffling tenants from pre-existing Class A to new Class A, the older, dated Class A they left is now unlocked to do something else with.
The article has a list of new Class A office space going up and it's all way out in South Tulsa or Jenks. I've worked in South Tulsa before and man it made getting lunch way less fun. I had to walk across a death highway six lanes wide masquerading as a city street to access a blazing hot strip center to get chain food or Sonic. I probably gained 10 pounds.
Vs. downtown where I had lots of tasty lunch options and didn't feel at risk of eminent death to get a cup of coffee And after work happy hour was way more doable. and the looking out the window "wow, so this is Tulsa" vibe was way better.
My 2 cents. But apparently I'm in a minority.
The scuttle butt has always been that Tulsa has suffered a chronic shortage of Class-A office space. There is a subset that would be "B" in a major market that is sometimes referred to as "Tulsa A," and even that is of limited supply downtown. Anyone with actual real estate knowledge feel free to chime in, but checking Loopnet and CBRE, class A is very limited. Clearly the definition is open to debate, but...
Downtown you have OneOK, which I don't think has accepted new leases in a long while. BOK Tower, which I've repeatedly heard is bursting at the seams. The Dirty Ice Cube, which is City of Tulsa and BOK fairly well leased up (one open floor it appears on CBRE, it isn't clear they want to divide). Williams 1 and 2 (black towers), which have always done well. And I understand Cimerex has decided not to lease office space in their new tower.
Next level, "Tulsa A" or high class B space, would be 1st Place Tower, which filled up fast with OneGas (Loopnet has 1 space listed and CBRE lists 2). 110 W. 7th just did and is doing more major renovations, and I think that is fairly well leased (CBRE lists one space).
I think Bank of America Tower, Petroleum Club, and MidCon would be seen as class-B spaces. Still nice, but certain corporations wanting to show off wouldn't be impressed. Some older buildings are striving to stay in class-B, and there is a good bit of Class-C space. Surprisingly, even in the downtown it appears office spaces are doing well.
http://www.loopnet.com/for-lease/office/?bb=y28y7xv49Jlh2xmC
http://www.cbre.us/o/tulsa/Pages/office-for-lease.aspx
For the next sizeable "A" building, you'd have to go to Warren Place at 61st and Yale. So if you were a law office looking for 20k of A space, or a corporation wanting to move a HQ and wanting 50k feet downtown, you're going to have a tough time finding it.
I don't think any spec Class-A has been built in downtown Tulsa for decades. When the Dirty Ice Cube was taken off the market, that about sucked it dry.
Amusingly, just posted today
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html
Putting the Class A in Tulsa office spaceQuoteSouthern Hills Tower overlooks a world-class golf course. The 15-story One Technology Center has a solar well that is good for the environment and easy on the eyes. Outside Unit Corp. headquarters are nature trails and a pond.
All are examples in Tulsa of Class A office buildings — multi-tenant spaces and grounds that are a couple of cuts above grade. They are some of the best office spaces in Tulsa.
"Typically, Class A office space would be the brightest and the shiniest and the newest in the market," said Martin Martin, first vice president for CBRE's Tulsa office.
Building Owners and Managers Association International groups office space into three classes: A, B and C. Class C Buildings compete for tenants requiring functional space at rents below the average for the area. Class B structures offer rents in the average range, adequate systems and building finishes in the fair to good range.
Class A spaces sport above-average rents, high-quality finishes, state-of-the-art elevator and HVAC systems and a litany of amenities, said Tanda L. Francis, managing broker-Tulsa for the real estate firm Price Edwards & Company. Those conveniences can include covered garage parking, fitness and child-care centers, security personnel, on-site food and banking services and locker rooms.
Recent additions to the Class A market in Tulsa include the Geophysical Resource Center 2 (8811 S. Yale Ave.), American Plaza (6011 S. Urbana Ave.) and Unit Corp. (8200 S. Unit Drive), as well as First Oklahoma Bank and Gateway Mortgage Group, both of which are in Jenks, said Matt Reese, an associate in CBRE's Tulsa office.
Premier office buildings are recognizable from the get-go, he said.
"One thing that we notice with clients as soon as we walk through the door is the level of finish in a lobby and if there is any building personnel there to greet people," he said. "That's kind of a telltale sign of a building that's concerned about just anyone coming in from off the street. They are there to direct traffic, to help lock up the building in the evenings and greet people in the mornings."
Fitness centers and/or locker rooms with showers are gaining in popularity, especially with millennials who like to bicycle to work.
"Perhaps they have some dead space in the building, an area that they've had trouble leasing," Reese said. "The thinking is that they could spend a little bit of capital and have a common space for tenants in the building to work out or congregate. That's kind of a trend of office space utilization — more communal space."
A total of 43 Class A properties totaling 7,816,546 square feet exist in the Tulsa metro, representing about 25 percent of the total office market, said Cody Brandt, senior research analyst for CBRE in Tulsa. Sixty-three percent of the total square feet in the Class A market are within the Inner Dispersal Loop (the percentages that don't include medical office and properties less than 10,000 square feet).
According to CBRE's market view for the first half of 2016, 4.5 percent of the area's Class A space is vacant, and the vacancy rate of all properties CBRE surveys is 13.1 percent. The average Class A asking rate for the first half of 2016 is $21.81 per square foot per year.
"This 4.5 is a very low percent," Martin said. "That means you have a really tight market in Class A office space. If you've got a tenant coming into the market who really wants to be in the really nice office space, they don't have a lot of options right now.
"It's kind of like which cars sell quicker — the Cadillacs or the Chevrolets? If you can afford the Class A's, you are going to go for the Class A's. But the rates for the Class A's are more."
The most plush office tends to attract energy-related companies, as well as large finance, consulting and architectural firms, Martin said. CBRE's latest market view shows that Tulsa's office market has maintained a trend of resiliency during the downturn of the energy industry.
"Looking at a market as a whole, on paper it's a very good place to be," Reese said. "But coming from an occupier services perspective, if we have a company that's interested in entering the Tulsa market and they have Class A space in a market like Dallas or Houston or Chicago or Kansas City, it doesn't present many opportunities.
"It's something you've seen with the vacancy that has been filled at the Warren Towers I (75.9 percent leased) and II (98.2 percent). The energy industry struggles and puts some space on the market, and we saw a good majority of that filled extremely quickly because it presents opportunities for people to upgrade."
The proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.
For projects such as Santa Fe to continue to materialize, however, crude oil prices likely will have to enjoy a sustained increase, Reese said.
"Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction," Reese said. "That's just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, 'The boats are floating, but we're not going anyway.'
"But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong."
Hotel Indigo on tap for June construction in Blue Dome Districthttp://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html)
QuoteOfficials are scheduled to break ground next month on a $18 million boutique hotel in the Blue Dome District, one of the hotel's developers said Thursday.
Hotel Indigo, a 106-guest-room, seven-story facility, will mark the first new construction in the proposed mixed-use development at Santa Fe Square. Jeff Hartman is part of the Hotel Indigo's ownership group, Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC, and operating partner of SJS Hospitality, which will manage the hotel.
"It will be our flagship hotel," Hartman said. "It's a big project for downtown. We sold our very first hotel, Candlewood Suites, two years ago in order to have the capital build a Hotel Indigo."
SJS Hospitality sold Candlewood Suites, 10008 E. 73rd St. in Tulsa, to Wood LLC for $3.525 million in May 2015.
Hotel Indigo, 131 Elgin Avenue, is scheduled to feature a 1,500-square-foot meeting room, an upscale restaurant and bar with a private dining area and a state-of-the-art fitness studio.
Guest rooms will have balconies that look out on ONEOK Field or on the Tulsa skyline, and patrons will have access to Santa Fe Square's 1,100-space parking garage.
Hotel Indigo will be SJS's fifth Tulsa-area hotel, including its third one downtown, joining a Courtyard by Marriott in the Atlas Life Building and a Fairfield Inn & Suites in the Brady Arts District. Greg Oliphant and David Sharp are the other partners in Blue Dome Hotel Center, Hartman said.
Named for the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, which will be renovated and incorporated in the project, Santa Fe Square is a mixed-used development by Nelson Stowe, with principals Elliot Nelson and Casey Stowe. Besides the hotel, it is scheduled to include retail and office space and 291 apartments.
Awesome - I am so excited for this development. That said,the national implosion in retail makes me nervous for Santa Fe Square.
Quote from: johrasephoenix on May 11, 2017, 10:42:40 PM
Awesome - I am so excited for this development. That said,the national implosion in retail makes me nervous for Santa Fe Square.
Mixed-use for the win.
Quote from: Townsend on May 11, 2017, 04:21:31 PM
Hotel Indigo on tap for June construction in Blue Dome District
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html)
It'll be nice to be proven wrong, but that's aweful close to that year mark put down by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN ;) http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21006.msg310780#msg310780
EDIT - yes, I realize that the SantaFe building itself has been being renovated for a while now, but the true mark of progress/victory will be removing American Parking off that block for a while. At least until they "win" the bid to manage the lot or whatever
Quote from: saintnicster on May 12, 2017, 08:47:04 AM
It'll be nice to be proven wrong, but that's aweful close to that year mark put down by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN ;) http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21006.msg310780#msg310780
EDIT - yes, I realize that the SantaFe building itself has been being renovated for a while now, but the true mark of progress/victory will be removing American Parking off that block for a while. At least until they "win" the bid to manage the lot or whatever
Well at least they
plan to start on new construction within a year!
I'm more bothered that the View lot still sits empty years after it was announced.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 12, 2017, 01:06:20 PM
I'm more bothered that the View lot still sits empty years after it was announced.
What is the deal with The View? My guess is they're trying to value engineer the rents downward. Or just giving time for all these new downtown apartments to be absorbed.
The Edge always strikes me as not having best site plan. You could easily fit 30-40% more apartments on that site if they had used the back half of the lot better instead of a long and low parking structure. I still think it was a great spot for Tulsa's first "Texas Donut", where the apartment building wraps all the way around an interior parking garage, providing a continuous street wall and masking the parking structure.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RDQh277PWAY/UXx7Ya3u-ZI/AAAAAAAAA-E/MdMXoVqC6-M/s1600/Dallas_donut.jpg)
Quote from: johrasephoenix on May 12, 2017, 01:23:35 PM
I still think it was a great spot for Tulsa's first "Texas Donut", where the apartment building wraps all the way around an interior parking garage, providing a continuous street wall and masking the parking structure.
We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.
Quote from: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 12, 2017, 02:11:11 PM
We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.
I always assumed ODOT forgot to tell the bridge designer they changed the plan and were keeping 51st two-way between Lewis and Harvard. I wonder what the construction costs were for that extra 20 feet of unnecessary/used bridge?
As for Santa Fe Square, glad to see at least one phase begin.
Quote from: DTowner on May 12, 2017, 03:00:49 PM
I always assumed ODOT forgot to tell the bridge designer they changed the plan and were keeping 51st two-way between Lewis and Harvard. I wonder what the construction costs were for that extra 20 feet of unnecessary/used bridge?
The Lewis bridge was one of the first phases in that project. It was probably too far along to change when the plans changed.
Quote from: johrasephoenix on May 12, 2017, 01:23:35 PM
The Edge always strikes me as not having best site plan. You could easily fit 30-40% more apartments on that site if they had used the back half of the lot better instead of a long and low parking structure.
Yeah I've wondered the same thing, seems like a waste of space and that the added cost of a taller interior garage would've been offset by the added units created along 2nd. I guess they could do a Phase II at some point but then you would have to demo the parking structure.
Quote from: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 12, 2017, 02:11:11 PM
We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.
Who would accidentally drive onto the shoulder with that high of a curb? Looks like they did a good job with what they had to work with even if it's a bit odd. That would be stupid to make 51st 1-way for that stretch just to accommodate a u-turn.
Ground breaking was yesterday:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html
From some of the articles I saw, restaurant and retail/office space on the first floor. Hotel (the first part of the project), and apartments coming online. Parking garage for all the new tenants and visitors.
Event center (small) and rooftop bar as well
My guesses...I like making quick business plans with no expertise...
$18 million for 106 rooms. I am guessing that 75% of the money was spent on the rooms and remainder on the "upscale restaurant, banquet hall and rooftop bar". That would be about $13.5 million on hotel rooms or about $127,000 per room. I am guessing the average room size is 325 square feet or about $400 per foot construction costs. The national average for hotel room construction is slightly more currently.
To get $127,000 back at an average of $127 a night (total guess for easy math) you would have to rent it for 1,000 nights with no expenses. I have read that expenses for a hotel room vary from $12 a night to $75 a night on average. I will assume that $57 works (again for easy math). That leaves $70 a day to pay back construction costs.
If you had 100% occupancy, the rooms would generate $7,000 a day income or $2.5 million a year. The construction costs would be paid back in a little over seven years. At two thirds capacity it would take eleven years. Rent from the other three things would generate some revenue, but not enough to offset continual updates and operations.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 14, 2017, 02:19:23 PM
My guesses...I like making quick business plans with no expertise...
$18 million for 106 rooms. I am guessing that 75% of the money was spent on the rooms and remainder on the "upscale restaurant, banquet hall and rooftop bar". That would be about $13.5 million on hotel rooms or about $127,000 per room. I am guessing the average room size is 325 square feet or about $400 per foot construction costs. The national average for hotel room construction is slightly more currently.
To get $127,000 back at an average of $127 a night (total guess for easy math) you would have to rent it for 1,000 nights with no expenses. I have read that expenses for a hotel room vary from $12 a night to $75 a night on average. I will assume that $57 works (again for easy math). That leaves $70 a day to pay back construction costs.
If you had 100% occupancy, the rooms would generate $7,000 a day income or $2.5 million a year. The construction costs would be paid back in a little over seven years. At two thirds capacity it would take eleven years. Rent from the other three things would generate some revenue, but not enough to offset continual updates and operations.
It is supposed to be a luxury hotel so I am guessing it will be at least $140/night and perhaps have a higher percentage of luxury suites than other hotels (so maybe more $200-$400 options). Occupancy rates will be lower than that but the revenue per room should be higher. Also, there will be other revenue from renting banquet hall and rooftop bar.
If they can break even in 11 years, that would still be really good as they'll then own a hotel worth millions with potentially zero debt.
I do wonder how a luxury hotel will do there and how much better that will be than other hotels around. I typically prefer hotels with very nice interiors and don't care or take advantage of the "luxury" offerings. I care more about views, location and a pool/hot tub. I don't care about bellmen, room service or valet. You can get that for less than $150 most places and there's quite a few nice hotels around for under that so I am curious what will make Indigo luxurious.
I looked at their Houston location (not great, but also not luxury) and the Austin one is nice but doesn't look much better than other hotels around. Prices in Austin/San Antonio are $144-$170. Some of their places have a bit of an at-home or beach home comfortable feel. Rooms look a bit more spacious than typical.
I've stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them. I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury. I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome. As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.
That's good to hear. From seeing in articles "luxury hotel" and quotes from the groundbreaking saying that the hotel fits the district, my vision of luxury wasn't exactly in line with the district.
Quote from: DTowner on June 15, 2017, 12:10:38 PM
I've stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them. I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury. I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome. As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.
I also like Indigo, and think it will be a great fit or Blue Dome. Also agree that it is more boutique-trendy, than luxury. I've enjoyed ever one I have stayed in. The Indigo in Atlanta across from the Fox Theater is a pretty cool one, and I have stayed several times there. Indigo is part of the IHG brand, which includes Holiday Inn, Crown Plaza, and Intercontinental.
Quote from: MostSeriousness on June 15, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
That's good to hear. From seeing in articles "luxury hotel" and quotes from the groundbreaking saying that the hotel fits the district, my vision of luxury wasn't exactly in line with the district.
"Luxury hotel" like "farm to table" has pretty much lost all real meaning with its profligate use.
Quote from: DTowner on June 15, 2017, 12:10:38 PM
I've stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them. I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury. I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome. As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.
That makes more sense then. They announced "luxury hotel" a number of times. Unless this one is planned to be drastically different from others, the "luxury" tag shouldn't have been used. Boutique should have been used instead. Sounds a bit like Aloft style of rehabbing old buildings to make quaint/eccentric hotels. That would make a lot more sense in the Blue Dome.
The article on TW said it "will be no cookie cutter" and has some neat renderings of inside:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html)
Also:
QuoteAn indoor-outdoor rooftop bar that will accommodate 60 to 85 people will be open to the public.
I'm glad the rooftop bar will be open to the public. Tulsa needs more rooftop bars! We have Mayo and what else? Is that it? I guess we have a couple places you can eat at up high, but besides AHHA, not many rooftops accessible by the public.
I went on a Blue Dome tour a few months ago and someone from the Hotel Indigo group was there, getting a feel of the location and history. I think they'll do this right.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 15, 2017, 01:21:47 PM
Also:
I'm glad the rooftop bar will be open to the public. Tulsa needs more rooftop bars! We have Mayo and what else? Is that it? I guess we have a couple places you can eat at up high, but besides AHHA, not many rooftops accessible by the public.
El Guapo has seating on the roof but it's pretty closed off so it mostly feels open-air instead of rooftop.
Drove by yesterday and saw columns rising from the site.
Think those were for the hotel
I thought the Santa Fe Depot was going to be part of the hotel. It looks like it was converted into separate office space:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-take-a-look-inside-the-santa-fe-depot/collection_f663bfc8-cea1-516a-a5bc-18688642780c.html#25 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-take-a-look-inside-the-santa-fe-depot/collection_f663bfc8-cea1-516a-a5bc-18688642780c.html#25)
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 03, 2018, 12:53:59 PM
I thought the Santa Fe Depot was going to be part of the hotel. It looks like it was converted into separate office space:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-take-a-look-inside-the-santa-fe-depot/collection_f663bfc8-cea1-516a-a5bc-18688642780c.html#25 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/photo-gallery-take-a-look-inside-the-santa-fe-depot/collection_f663bfc8-cea1-516a-a5bc-18688642780c.html#25)
This was answered December last year:
Quote from: dsjeffries on December 21, 2017, 08:46:01 AM
That is the old Santa Fe depot/station. According to this Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html),
QuoteQuote
Industrial Developers of Oklahoma is renovating and will occupy much of the former depot, with the balance being used as office and retail space...
The same article also says there will be an upscale restaurant on the first floor, which I think, given the small-ish footprint of the new building, may take up part of the Santa Fe depot.
It seemed like earlier renderings showed the depot part of the hotel or there was a mention that it could be dining/event space. Shame that it won't be for more public use but it does look nice.
Here's a quote from an earlier article from TW:
QuoteNamed for the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, which will be renovated and incorporated in the project, Santa Fe Square is a mixed-used development
So still part of overall "Santa Fe Square" (so that's 2 sizable buildings that are close to finished!), just not part of Hotel Indigo. That's a win overall though because it adds more diverse usage to the same footprint.
I'm curious what the current timeline is for the rest of the development? Are they preleasing the space in the office building? Not long ago I had heard the plan was to finish the hotel and Santa Fe Depot renovation then build the office tower followed by the apartments. The original plan being that ARG would complete the The View and then build the Santa Fe Square apartments.
Hotel Indigo progress
(https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35812694_191306681442270_1421055342233518080_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=7612dff1ef8729db0ed0b5ac7ce7d63a&oe=5BA6355A)
Rendering
(https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21993172_129838090922463_8907032429382641643_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=51d736097db0ca73cb436aaa6577f9a5&oe=5B9FC55B)
Also found this new(?) rendering of the office building
(http://commercialoklahoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Santa-Fe-Square-1st-Greenwood-Ave-Tulsa.png)
http://commercialoklahoma.com/commercial/santa-fe-square-1st-greenwood-ave-tulsa/ (http://commercialoklahoma.com/commercial/santa-fe-square-1st-greenwood-ave-tulsa/)
That's kind of disappointing. The height makes it interesting, but the design is a lot more cold, uninviting, and less retail-oriented than the original. Parking entrances are given too much prominence, and I don't like the screens. Is that an open parking deck on the right?
Definitely a step back design-wise, but at this point I'll be happy when they break ground on anything.
That office building is u-g-l-y.
What happened to the covered avenue with shopping? :'(
Quote from: hello on June 27, 2018, 08:15:11 AM
That is u-g-l-y.
What happened to the covered avenue with shopping? :'(
I believe that's still planned. The hotel is a small part of the project IIRC.
1st & greenwood (vs 2nd & Elgin)
(http://images2.loopnet.com/i2/gn0BanwCXgl54mICcE3vuZ81XZTeNbPIFkfXkfuhq0o/112/image.jpg)
Looks like the office building now has three levels of parking incorporated into building itself. I'm guessing prospective tenants didn't want to walk to the other end of the project to fight for parking with residents and retail.
This office building will be catty-corner from Hogan Assessment on 1st and Greenwood?
I'm OK with it - it's not optimal but the Hartford building to the east is not much better looking.
Ah, good catch. I just assumed this was at 2nd and Elgin without reading the description.
In that case... this will be pretty neat to have some height on that side of DT.
Quote from: carltonplace on June 27, 2018, 09:32:10 AM
This office building will be catty-corner from Hogan Assessment on 1st and Greenwood?
I'm OK with it - it's not optimal but the Hartford building to the east is not much better looking.
Just noticed that and figured it was 2nd & Elgin. I didn't realize they had another office building planned at 1st & Greenwood, hopefully if that's the case it's the SW corner and they reconfigure the residential portion so there isn't a big garage along Greenwood. If so then that rendering would be showing the view from Hogan Assessments with Hartford Crossing on the left (currently a parking lot) and the rest of Santa Fe Square to the right along 1st.
Quote from: SXSW on June 27, 2018, 10:29:57 AM
Just noticed that and figured it was 2nd & Elgin. I didn't realize they had another office building planned at 1st & Greenwood, hopefully if that's the case it's the SW corner and they reconfigure the residential portion so there isn't a big garage along Greenwood.
Map and description say it's at 1st and Greenwood. This is a big improvement over what was planned there (was just a massive 1300 space parking garage). With everything going in at this intersection, it would be great to add to it so the corner can have more activity. The garage being up on 2nd through 4th floors is a great idea.
It'll be much better to build the various parking garages like this rendering shows so they can have parking for each building as they're completed and not have to either fund an immensely expensive 1300-space garage up front, or put it last and have a bunch of large buildings with no dedicated parking.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 27, 2018, 10:50:35 AM
Map and description say it's at 1st and Greenwood. This is a big improvement over what was planned there (was just a massive 1300 space parking garage). With everything going in at this intersection, it would be great to add to it so the corner can have more activity. The garage being up on 2nd through 4th floors is a great idea.
It'll be much better to build the various parking garages like this rendering shows so they can have parking for each building as they're completed and not have to either fund an immensely expensive 1300-space garage up front, or put it last and have a bunch of large buildings with no dedicated parking.
So this is a second office building for the project?
This is definitely an improvement to the NE corner of the development. Does anyone know if this office building will go up before the proposed building at 2nd & Elgin? A smaller building might be easier to get financing and the necessary pre-leasing targets to get started.
This appears to confirm the 1st & Greenwood location for a second office tower at Santa Fe Square
(http://images2.loopnet.com/i2/gn0BanwCXgl54mICcE3vuZ81XZTeNbPIFkfXkfuhq0o/112/image.jpg)
Quote from: SXSW on June 27, 2018, 11:49:39 AM
This appears to confirm the 1st & Greenwood location for a second office tower at Santa Fe Square
(http://images2.loopnet.com/i2/gn0BanwCXgl54mICcE3vuZ81XZTeNbPIFkfXkfuhq0o/112/image.jpg)
My "boo" is now an enthusiastic "yay".
Very cool
So long as they leave the ground floor facing the sidewalks for commercial development.
Quote from: swake on June 27, 2018, 11:19:25 AM
So this is a second office building for the project?
Or 3rd/4th. They also renovated the santa fe depot building at the corner of 1st and Elgin into a small office building as part of this project and that was originally supposed to be part of the hotel.
The original plans showed the large mostly-office building at 2nd and Elgin and a very large mega-building that was almost an entire city block (part office) and then the large parking garage. Each building was to have all ground-floor retail except for the hotel and then apartments and/or office space above. Even the garage was going to have retail along 1st and 2nd.
Looking at the rendering again, it looks like it will still be a large parking garage taking up about the same footprint, but will only be 4 levels rather than the 7 levels originally planned. So not only will the building take out a quarter of that, it will be a much shorter building so that's a drawback (so maybe only 500-spot garage now). Must've been to expensive.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 28, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
Or 3rd/4th. They also renovated the santa fe depot building at the corner of 1st and Elgin into a small office building as part of this project and that was originally supposed to be part of the hotel.
The original plans showed the large mostly-office building at 2nd and Elgin and a very large mega-building that was almost an entire city block (part office) and then the large parking garage. Each building was to have all ground-floor retail except for the hotel and then apartments and/or office space above. Even the garage was going to have retail along 1st and 2nd.
Looking at the rendering again, it looks like it will still be a large parking garage taking up about the same footprint, but will only be 4 levels rather than the 7 levels originally planned. So not only will the building take out a quarter of that, it will be a much shorter building so that's a drawback (so maybe only 500-spot garage now). Must've been to expensive.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)
This is a better plan IMO. You still have a parking garage but there is an activated retail corner at 1st & Greenwood (not sure about 2nd & Greenwood) and we get another office tower on top.
This would be nice for the opposite end of the development. As far as height, I don't really care about height. I'd much prefer infill throughout downtown with 4-6 story buildings than a few towers between parking craters. I know that's not feasible or popular, but it's what I'd prefer.
The original plan excites me because of the interior corridors and retail space. I'd love for it to be like a small open air mall, which are much preferable to the dying suburban indoor mall model.
Quote from: DowntownDan on June 29, 2018, 08:57:18 AM
This would be nice for the opposite end of the development. As far as height, I don't really care about height. I'd much prefer infill throughout downtown with 4-6 story buildings than a few towers between parking craters. I know that's not feasible or popular, but it's what I'd prefer.
The original plan excites me because of the interior corridors and retail space. I'd love for it to be like a small open air mall, which are much preferable to the dying suburban indoor mall model.
From what I've heard Santa Fe Square was always envisioned as a three phase project. The first phase is the Hotel Indigo and renovation of the old Frisco Depot at 1st & Elgin. The second phase is the office portion and the last phase is the residential. ARG, one of the apartment co-developers, is also developing The View by ONEOK Field (and built The Edge, Tribune Lofts, Renaissance, etc).
Another view of the office building at 2nd & Elgin courtesy of Selser Schaefer Architects. The hotel looks different though so I'm not sure if this is the latest design or not..
(http://tulsanow.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Santa-Fe-Square-ground-elevation.jpg)
I love the different architectural styles. Looks more organic than a mega structure.
Quote from: SXSW on June 29, 2018, 10:46:52 AM
From what I've heard Santa Fe Square was always envisioned as a three phase project. The first phase is the Hotel Indigo and renovation of the old Frisco Depot at 1st & Elgin. The second phase is the office portion and the last phase is the residential. ARG, one of the apartment co-developers, is also developing The View by ONEOK Field (and built The Edge, Tribune Lofts, Renaissance, etc).
Another view of the office building at 2nd & Elgin courtesy of Selser Schaefer Architects. The hotel looks different though so I'm not sure if this is the latest design or not..
The new building at 1st and Greenwood looks so much different than that original proposed style, that I doubt the "centerpiece" of the development will end up looking much like this rendering.
Seems like the norm for these developments is to make grand proposal and end up with a cheaper looking building that's at least better than a parking lot (Like the Ross group building next to OneOK). I love that they're turning the garage into much more of a building though. Big improvement there!
Quote from: SXSW on June 27, 2018, 11:49:39 AM
This appears to confirm the 1st & Greenwood location for a second office tower at Santa Fe Square
(http://images2.loopnet.com/i2/gn0BanwCXgl54mICcE3vuZ81XZTeNbPIFkfXkfuhq0o/112/image.jpg)
I don't know if this is old news or not, but I noticed new signage on the corner across from the blue dome for leasing on this tower. I assume that means it is nearing construction, although that is certainly not always the case here in Tulsa.
Quote from: shavethewhales on September 24, 2018, 10:39:05 AM
I don't know if this is old news or not, but I noticed new signage on the corner across from the blue dome for leasing on this tower. I assume that means it is nearing construction, although that is certainly not always the case here in Tulsa.
The tower at 1st & Greenwood or the one at 2nd & Elgin? There are two office buildings that are part of the Santa Fe Square development. The hotel is nearly finished and the apartments/parking garage will be in between. I've heard those will be part of the last phase as they are being co-developed by ARG which wants to first get The View well underway across the tracks.
I don't know if these have been brought up yet, but a lot of these renderings of the area look new: http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/111-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/4354832/
Kinda scaled back into smaller individual buildings, but it probably makes more sense. The proposed cinema would be nice.
Quote from: shavethewhales on October 04, 2018, 09:00:07 AM
I don't know if these have been brought up yet, but a lot of these renderings of the area look new: http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/111-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/4354832/
Kinda scaled back into smaller individual buildings, but it probably makes more sense. The proposed cinema would be nice.
I'm curious if their software can't have cars do back-in angled parking, or if they are the type of people who park like that.
Quote from: shavethewhales on October 04, 2018, 09:00:07 AM
I don't know if these have been brought up yet, but a lot of these renderings of the area look new: http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/111-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/4354832/
Kinda scaled back into smaller individual buildings, but it probably makes more sense. The proposed cinema would be nice.
The cost-cutting measures begin. These buildings are nice enough at this point, but no where near as nice as the initial Santa Fe Square renderings. Most of the character in the architecture which was fitting of the name has already been cut out. Even at this point, the renderings look like a pretty generic urban development.
(https://images4.loopnet.com/i2/wu9ZPORWRywQrAu7_xXDXypd6U3TJlsKnzCksV3OqaA/112/image.jpg)
(https://images1.loopnet.com/i2/rODe_kogu8Z-v2eSPbeiZe6YW26RHT5493-UyIzguOI/112/image.jpg)
(https://images4.loopnet.com/i2/o458ZaDgbkONM7H8TkcIEg0fR0jmazDokRUaNm60imc/112/image.jpg)
But don't worry, the final will look hardly like these. It will be much more generic. Those casement windows are going to have to go and there are far cheaper awnings. I'm kidding and these buildings are good enough provided they get built. I hope the cornerstone building at 2nd and Elgin ends up being close to what they showed originally.
I actually like the newest design for the 2nd & Elgin building. The whole thing ties into the current design aesthetic of a lot of the older brick buildings downtown, more than the more European-looking previous version. If they can land an Alamo Drafthouse where the "Santa Fe Cinema" is shown on 2nd that would be pretty awesome and a big draw for the retail/restaurants that are part of this development.
If you're in OKC there is a new development called West Village on the west side of downtown. It includes a couple renovated historic buildings that have been turned into a restaurant/music venue and a hotel (Museum 21c), but the surrounding apartments are pretty tacky. Hopefully we get something more like Dallas' West Village which is mixed-use with a theater, apartments, retail, etc. and really transformed the area around it.
Really interested in the "Santa Fe Cinema" and whether this could be an Alamo Drafthouse.
The footprint of this Alamo would be similar to one they recently built in Denver and would fit along 2nd St between Frankfort and Greenwood adjacent to the parking garage. Like the one in Denver the main lobby would be at the corner of 2nd & Frankfort.
Alamo Sloans Lake
(https://lcpdevelopment.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BZ15SLOANS3.jpg)
An Alamo Drafthouse here would be amazing.
Now that the Hotel Indigo is open I'm hoping they can get started on the second phase of Santa Fe Square next year, which was their original plan. I'm hearing they are close to preleasing the space they need to get one of the office buildings started, not sure if that is the one at 2nd & Elgin or 1st & Greenwood. They are definitely talking about bringing a movie theater into the development at 2nd & Frankfort. The apartments are still part of the final phase, they don't want to dump too much supply into the downtown market with The View starting next year and The Annex still a possibility on the PAC lot, in addition to Hartford Crossing and the historic renovations that will bring about ~200 new apartments online in the next 2 years.
Quote from: SXSW on November 26, 2018, 12:07:23 PM
Now that the Hotel Indigo is open I'm hoping they can get started on the second phase of Santa Fe Square next year, which was their original plan. I'm hearing they are close to preleasing the space they need to get one of the office buildings started, not sure if that is the one at 2nd & Elgin or 1st & Greenwood. They are definitely talking about bringing a movie theater into the development at 2nd & Frankfort. The apartments are still part of the final phase, they don't want to dump too much supply into the downtown market with The View starting next year and The Annex still a possibility on the PAC lot, in addition to Hartford Crossing and the historic renovations that will bring about ~200 new apartments online in the next 2 years.
A "now leasing" sign at the corner of 2nd and Elgin popped up a few weeks ago showing the picture of an office building. Not sure if that means anything with respect to which phase/location will come next.
If ~200 apartments a year are flooding the downtown housing market, then we are not growing anywhere nearly as fast as we need to be.
Quote from: DTowner on November 26, 2018, 04:44:38 PM
A "now leasing" sign at the corner of 2nd and Elgin popped up a few weeks ago showing the picture of an office building. Not sure if that means anything with respect to which phase/location will come next.
If ~200 apartments a year are flooding the downtown housing market, then we are not growing anywhere nearly as fast as we need to be.
True, sad thing is I don't think Tulsa is growing at all. If downtown is that means that likely there are more empty houses somewhere else in the city.
Quote from: DTowner on November 26, 2018, 04:44:38 PM
If ~200 apartments a year are flooding the downtown housing market, then we are not growing anywhere nearly as fast as we need to be.
200 is the rough number of new apartments coming online in the old buildings downtown, excluding new construction projects with parking and amenities like pools and fitness centers. I don't know the exact number but this includes projects like the Adams Building, Reunion Center, etc it may be larger than that. The View and the Annex combined will have over 500 units and compete with the Cosmopolitan which will have another 260 units coming online next year in addition to the 62 units that just opened up in the Flats on Archer.
EDIT: it's 270 units under construction or proposed in existing buildings. Adams (65), Reunion (80), Hartford (55) and 111 W 5th (70).
Quote from: TheArtist on November 26, 2018, 07:06:12 PM
True, sad thing is I don't think Tulsa is growing at all. If downtown is that means that likely there are more empty houses somewhere else in the city.
I meet people all the time that have moved to downtown or downtown adjacent from Bixby or Owasso.
Anyone heard any update on this project? Hotel Indigo seems to be very successful, the rooftop bar is always slam packed on the weekends!
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on July 30, 2019, 01:15:54 PM
Anyone heard any update on this project? Hotel Indigo seems to be very successful, the rooftop bar is always slam packed on the weekends!
They need to lease up the office building before they can start that phase (the office building at 2nd & Elgin). I've been told ARG wants to finish the The View before starting the residential component at Santa Fe Square. So the entire project is still a few years out from being finished, but it's always been a multi-year multi-phase project.
Quote from: SXSW on July 31, 2019, 04:16:36 PM
They need to lease up the office building before they can start that phase (the office building at 2nd & Elgin). I've been told ARG wants to finish the The View before starting the residential component at Santa Fe Square. So the entire project is still a few years out from being finished, but it's always been a multi-year multi-phase project.
Hopefully what WPX is doing will up the quality of what the tenants of the 2nd and Elgin building will want in a building. The last renderings of that building were kinda lame.
With WPX moving out, that leaves more space in Williams tower. I don't think they were at full occupancy anyway. I think there's still a lot of office vacancy around DT Tulsa, so demand for the new tower can't be that high. That's not to say that maybe a company seeks out a bigger cohesive space though...
I just want to see that building across from the Blue Dome built first. That would really fill in a major gap for the area.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 31, 2019, 04:41:54 PM
With WPX moving out, that leaves more space in Williams tower. I don't think they were at full occupancy anyway. I think there's still a lot of office vacancy around DT Tulsa, so demand for the new tower can't be that high. That's not to say that maybe a company seeks out a bigger cohesive space though...
I just want to see that building across from the Blue Dome built first. That would really fill in a major gap for the area.
I had heard Laredo Petroleum was looking at moving into Santa Fe Square but that was over a year ago. Energy prices may have put those plans on hold.
I saw where WeWork is leasing 200k sq ft in a new tower proposed in downtown Bentonville. Maybe they would be interested and then you could fill the building with a bunch of smaller companies, especially tech companies.
https://talkbusiness.net/2019/04/wework-coming-to-downtown-bentonville-planning-200000-sf-building-on-south-main-street/ (https://talkbusiness.net/2019/04/wework-coming-to-downtown-bentonville-planning-200000-sf-building-on-south-main-street/)
Quote from: SXSW on July 31, 2019, 04:16:36 PM
They need to lease up the office building before they can start that phase (the office building at 2nd & Elgin). I've been told ARG wants to finish the The View before starting the residential component at Santa Fe Square. So the entire project is still a few years out from being finished, but it's always been a multi-year multi-phase project.
Makes sense, good insight :). Hopefully the demand is there for office tenants. Are those offices on the opposite side (facing McNellies) completed? Don't remember if they were still vacant the last time I walked by.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on August 01, 2019, 02:03:19 PM
Makes sense, good insight :). Hopefully the demand is there for office tenants. Are those offices on the opposite side (facing McNellies) completed? Don't remember if they were still vacant the last time I walked by.
Yes, if you're talking about the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, the TW had an article about the first tenants there a while back. Looks nice.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/former-santa-fe-rail-depot-reincarnated-as-contemporary-office-space/article_b86dd415-dc2d-5802-98ab-6a5671e92663.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/former-santa-fe-rail-depot-reincarnated-as-contemporary-office-space/article_b86dd415-dc2d-5802-98ab-6a5671e92663.html)
Quote from: TheArtist on November 26, 2018, 07:06:12 PM
True, sad thing is I don't think Tulsa is growing at all. If downtown is that means that likely there are more empty houses somewhere else in the city.
IDK..
They're still building neighborhoods around Owasso.
It seems odd that our population appears stagnant yet, housing construction continues at a decent pace.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 07, 2019, 03:27:19 PM
Yes, if you're talking about the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, the TW had an article about the first tenants there a while back. Looks nice.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/former-santa-fe-rail-depot-reincarnated-as-contemporary-office-space/article_b86dd415-dc2d-5802-98ab-6a5671e92663.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/former-santa-fe-rail-depot-reincarnated-as-contemporary-office-space/article_b86dd415-dc2d-5802-98ab-6a5671e92663.html)
The guy's financing a large portion of the equity of this development are the one's who moved into this building IDO (Industrial Developers of Oklahoma). They're the guys who own the H&P Building, Old Ford Glass Plant, they're building the Amazon facility, and others. So they have a vested interest to see this get built.
This development will happen, it's just going to take time as Tulsa can't support a large high-end spec office building - look what happened in OKC with the BOK Tower - it's 90% vacant still.
From what I've heard is ARG is the main hold up, along with a retail broker who wasn't really prepared for this type of project and didn't effectively market it to tenants. ARG got spooked because the East Village project leased up very slowly and that was about the time when Williams and Energy Transfer did their dance. ARG does not want to build this until the Greenwood project is done.. and they've dragged their feet on that project because of the East Village project due to various levels of excuses. They could have built the residential portion without the office building as this was always set up to be built in phases but have chosen not to given ARG's cold feet and a lack of the retail broker successfully signing any LOI's or pre-leases.
The reason ARG has struggled some is their new builds have lacked character and are expensive when you compare it to some of the historic reno's like the Mayo Building. You get higher quality finishes in concrete construction in many of the historic reno's for similar $$ per month. ARG needs to adapt to the fact you can't smash a suburban property into a faux urban building and expect success when you have competition. If they can figure out how to infuse some character into thier buildings and do a better job of having them fit the urban environment they'd have better success.
They tried to no put any retail in the Greenwood project because they claim the retail in the Metro building doesn't have demand. They have also been fighting to not include retail in the Santa Fe Square project but the other investors have veto'd that for now because they see the benefits of street-level retail in this part of downtown. The Metro building doesn't have demand because you can't tell there's even supposed to be retail there - terrible street level design and visibility and the Greenwood project has copied that design. Yet, somehow across the street from both in buildings that were properly design there's seems to be plenty of demand for retail, for example the Vast Bank building.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on August 08, 2019, 12:39:04 PM
The guy's financing a large portion of the equity of this development are the one's who moved into this building IDO (Industrial Developers of Oklahoma). They're the guys who own the H&P Building, Old Ford Glass Plant, they're building the Amazon facility, and others. So they have a vested interest to see this get built.
This development will happen, it's just going to take time as Tulsa can't support a large high-end spec office building - look what happened in OKC with the BOK Tower - it's 90% vacant still.
BOK Park Plaza is certainly struggling with the downturn in oil prices and the shrinkage of Devon, but it is not 90% vacant and never has been. (Last I knew, the office space was approximately 60% vacant.)
LandArch, good insights into the hold up at Santa Fe Square. I've heard many of the same things. I would hope ARG is patient and makes this their premier downtown project as it will warrant it. And that a good amount of retail is part of the development.
Quote from: Oil Capital on August 08, 2019, 02:02:57 PM
BOK Park Plaza is certainly struggling with the downturn in oil prices and the shrinkage of Devon, but it is not 90% vacant and never has been. (Last I knew, the office space was approximately 60% vacant.)
Well if we want to get super technical about it, it really isn't "vacant" it's just not occupied as Devon is still paying rent on a huge portion of that building - that's the only reason it's escaped foreclosure for now. The fact is though the entire building was dark for a long period of time until BOK moved in - so 60%, 90% either way when that amount of office space is dark and on the market for sublease or direct lease it has the same effect on the office market. I do believe another tenant did recently move out of Energy Square into the building into some of Devon's sublease space... but you're really just moving chess pieces around the board at that point because they immediately put space on the market elsewhere. Not only did that tenant, BOK do that, Devon also put all the other space they had in various buildings downtown on the market too as the BOK Park Plaza building was not growth, it was a planned consolidation out of several other buildings and to give them a few floors extra to growth into with direct connection to their headquarter tower.
But that's the reason why anchor tenants are important to begin construction in markets like Tulsa or OKC, the markets can shift quickly and the perceived risks can be high for office buildings over 100,000 sq. ft. in either of these markets.
I have been thinking about this development and how it seems they are "waiting for the right moment" to build more housing, office and or retail. But it seems to me that they risk being too cautious as other developers continually make the jump before them, all this seems to do is have the Santa Fe Square people go, "Oh well we better wait for the market to absorb/catch up again because that new development has put more on the market"... then as time goes on, another development happens, and so on. If they want to build this, seems to me they are going to have to go for it or others will continue to instead.
Yeah, Tulsa DT development has been in a log jam for years now. Feels like so much has happened and been done in the last few years, but really if you look around and compare to some other cities it is obvious that there just isn't a ton of demand. As we've discussed on here many times before, most of the new office space is just local offices moving around and maybe expanding a little. Most of the new apartments are just sucking people in from the outer boroughs.
This project and the PAC lot seem to be at odds with each other since they are both huge projects that will bring a lot of housing and retail to the DT market all at once. Meanwhile all the other development is kind of just keeping pace with the normal demand. We need something big to come along and give a proper push to get these projects moving. Most years it seems like we are just fighting to stay good enough to keep our current employers from jumping ship to Texas or wherever... Got to get moving on some fresh initiatives to bring companies here that are getting priced out of California or Austin.
Quote from: shavethewhales on August 09, 2019, 08:57:53 AM
Yeah, Tulsa DT development has been in a log jam for years now. Feels like so much has happened and been done in the last few years, but really if you look around and compare to some other cities it is obvious that there just isn't a ton of demand. As we've discussed on here many times before, most of the new office space is just local offices moving around and maybe expanding a little. Most of the new apartments are just sucking people in from the outer boroughs.
This project and the PAC lot seem to be at odds with each other since they are both huge projects that will bring a lot of housing and retail to the DT market all at once. Meanwhile all the other development is kind of just keeping pace with the normal demand. We need something big to come along and give a proper push to get these projects moving. Most years it seems like we are just fighting to stay good enough to keep our current employers from jumping ship to Texas or wherever... Got to get moving on some fresh initiatives to bring companies here that are getting priced out of California or Austin.
Especially with the oil & gas industry being pretty stagnant right now it will take some new companies expanding or moving to Tulsa to fill up this development. 170k sf of office space is a good amount. Though like I posted before WeWork is leasing 200k sf in Bentonville so something like that could potentially work here.
From Loopnet:
QuoteNelson & Stowe Development presents a new lifestyle shopping area within a mixed use development featuring a brick-paved pedestrian plaza lined with 80,000 SF of first floor retail, restaurant, and office space.
I assume the pedestrian plaza is the extension of Frankfort between 1st and 2nd. I hope this remains part of the project because it breaks up this super block, and extends Frankfort which is a small existing retail cluster downtown with Fleet Feet, Lee's and the Boxyard.
QuoteThe development will also feature a 105 room hotel, 291 apartments with a rooftop pool, and 170,000 Sf of executive office use space.
Obviously the hotel is already finished. 291 apartments is large but not excessive, seems like ARG could get The View underway and still start this project which won't deliver until 2022.
Quote from: SXSW on August 09, 2019, 10:15:52 AM
Especially with the oil & gas industry being pretty stagnant right now it will take some new companies expanding or moving to Tulsa to fill up this development. 170k sf of office space is a good amount. Though like I posted before WeWork is leasing 200k sf in Bentonville so something like that could potentially work here.
Multi-billion dollar company built on a house of cards. They - WeWork - are already well down the "implode path". Will be interesting to see how long it is until Chapter 11.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 30, 2019, 07:39:53 PM
Multi-billion dollar company built on a house of cards. They - WeWork - are already well down the "implode path". Will be interesting to see how long it is until Chapter 11.
Yes much different story now than a few months ago. According to this article they are still a go for their Bentonville office which would be the closest one to Tulsa, not sure about any future expansion however
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/128458/bentonville-wework-still-a-go (https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/128458/bentonville-wework-still-a-go)
Quote from: SXSW on September 30, 2019, 11:05:03 PM
Yes much different story now than a few months ago. According to this article they are still a go for their Bentonville office which would be the closest one to Tulsa, not sure about any future expansion however
https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/128458/bentonville-wework-still-a-go (https://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/128458/bentonville-wework-still-a-go)
Alfred E Neumann is gone now....er, uh, Adam...yeah, that's it...Adam is gone. Rest of the company probably be gone soon, too. $47 Billion valuation - Wow!, do I ever want some of what those people were smoking! Coulda had IWG at only a couple times earnings! Not 25+ !
Who is next? Uber...??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 30, 2019, 07:39:53 PM
Multi-billion dollar company built on a house of cards. They - WeWork - are already well down the "implode path". Will be interesting to see how long it is until Chapter 11.
Didn't care to give up my email to get past the paywall. What? Got another "Semron" here?
Quote from: Conan71 on October 03, 2019, 08:25:32 PM
Didn't care to give up my email to get past the paywall. What? Got another "Semron" here?
/edit- I'd never heard of them before today did a bit of snooping. Doesn't look real solid:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/03/wework-layoffs/
Quote from: Conan71 on October 03, 2019, 08:27:57 PM
/edit- I'd never heard of them before today did a bit of snooping. Doesn't look real solid:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/03/wework-layoffs/
I've set up two offices at WeWork sites in cities where we have too few employees to require a real office. It good for my company, but I have no idea how they can ever make money. It's a real estate company pretending to be a tech company.
Quote from: swake on October 03, 2019, 08:44:24 PM
I've set up two offices at WeWork sites in cities where we have too few employees to require a real office. It good for my company, but I have no idea how they can ever make money. It's a real estate company pretending to be a tech company.
You get a much better IPO for a tech company than a real estate company.
Quote from: swake on October 03, 2019, 08:44:24 PM
I've set up two offices at WeWork sites in cities where we have too few employees to require a real office. It good for my company, but I have no idea how they can ever make money. It's a real estate company pretending to be a tech company.
One big problem is they have no assets...if you are gonna be a real estate company that would seem to imply you have some real estate...
There is a guy on LinkedIn who is absolutely torching them, while showing a lot of the holes in their entire system, and doing it in a pretty funny way. Talking about the "Dude" culture they built...
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 05, 2019, 09:58:26 PM
One big problem is they have no assets...if you are gonna be a real estate company that would seem to imply you have some real estate...
There is a guy on LinkedIn who is absolutely torching them, while showing a lot of the holes in their entire system, and doing it in a pretty funny way. Talking about the "Dude" culture they built...
Unless you call hundreds of overpriced longterm leases "asset" instead of a liabilities. It's crazy.
Quote from: swake on October 05, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
Unless you call hundreds of overpriced longterm leases "asset" instead of a liabilities. It's crazy.
Exactly what they did...
Not much has changed since 2000's when all the crazy stuff sent us into
mega-recession....no, it was a depression!
Heard through the grapevine that this Santa Fe Square development is picking up momentum again. Unfortunately I don't know any specific details, but apparently it's being looked at. Anyone hear anything about this?
Quote from: Rattle Trap on January 28, 2021, 08:59:30 AM
Heard through the grapevine that this Santa Fe Square development is picking up momentum again. Unfortunately I don't know any specific details, but apparently it's being looked at. Anyone hear anything about this?
Last I heard the office portion, which was supposed to be Phase 2 after the hotel, was on hold due to needing a certain amount of space leased. The rumor was that Laredo Petroleum was going to take a big chunk of space then decided to stay put in the BofA Tower. Then potentially WeWork was looking at it but we know what a mess they're currently in.
My understanding regarding the residential portion is that ARG, who developed Tribune Lofts, The Edge and now The View, was going to start planning and design work once The View was underway and construction once the The View is completed.
Quote from: SXSW on January 28, 2021, 10:17:48 AM
Last I heard the office portion, which was supposed to be Phase 2 after the hotel, was on hold due to needing a certain amount of space leased. The rumor was that Laredo Petroleum was going to take a big chunk of space then decided to stay put in the BofA Tower. Then potentially WeWork was looking at it but we know what a mess they're currently in.
Santa Fe is pretty aggressively marketing itself to downtown tenants with soon-to-be expiring leases (mine included). They still need more commitments to break ground. The problem is they are now competing with WPX who has a 1/2 built building underway.
Quote from: DTowner on February 05, 2021, 12:57:50 PM
Santa Fe is pretty aggressively marketing itself to downtown tenants with soon-to-be expiring leases (mine included). They still need more commitments to break ground. The problem is they are now competing with WPX who has a 1/2 built building underway.
Yeah we need WPX to snag a big tenant then Santa Fe Square can get moving.
Quote from: SXSW on February 07, 2021, 05:39:59 PM
Yeah we need WPX to snag a big tenant then Santa Fe Square can get moving.
There's also GreenArch office building - I think they're building it 100% spec. Wonder if anyone has heard anything about if they have an anchor tenant or not.
My bet is Santa Fe Square's office portion is a while away barring some big announcement/expansion.
Anyone know anything about the TIF that was approved for Santa Fe Square? I'm curious if any funds have been dispersed to them yet or not and if there was any requirements put on by the city for them to build a certain amount on the site to qualify for it (most likely not, doesn't seem like the city ever tries to make people build what they promise when utilizing public money)
I was hopeful they were closer to breaking ground on the garage and other stuff back when they kicked the Blue Dome Arts Festive off the site. Kind of a bummer they did that and now have still yet to break ground on much of anything.
Quote from: SXSW on February 07, 2021, 05:39:59 PM
Yeah we need WPX to snag a big tenant then Santa Fe Square can get moving.
Heard some conflicting information, not sure which is correct. Hearing there's a tenant seriously interested in either the WPX building, or the Santa Fe building. Given that the WPX building is currently under construction and the Santa Fe development hasn't broken ground, I would assume they meant the WPX building.
Quote from: Rattle Trap on February 09, 2021, 11:26:25 AM
Heard some conflicting information, not sure which is correct. Hearing there's a tenant seriously interested in either the WPX building, or the Santa Fe building. Given that the WPX building is currently under construction and the Santa Fe development hasn't broken ground, I would assume they meant the WPX building.
The WPX building is the linchpin for Santa Fe Square. Not only for the office space but the residential as well. I would say the Annex is also tied to both of these developments. Exciting time for downtown if all these projects are able to get started.
Quote from: Rattle Trap on February 09, 2021, 11:26:25 AM
Heard some conflicting information, not sure which is correct. Hearing there's a tenant seriously interested in either the WPX building, or the Santa Fe building. Given that the WPX building is currently under construction and the Santa Fe development hasn't broken ground, I would assume they meant the WPX building.
Might depend too on lease expiration if it is a local company. Given the size of the Santa Fe office building they could probably break ground quickly and get it built within 48 months. So if the tenant is looking for something at the end of a lease and relocation they might be looking at both and just seeing which one makes better financial sense. I'm betting if Devon ends up leasing that building it will be in the $30 per sq. ft. range and I believe Santa Fe they are proposing someone around $22-25 per sq. ft. They were originally asking in the $30 sq. ft. range and once they moved the office portion back along Greenwood and cheapened up the look of it from the new renderings they dropped the asking rent range down.
Quote from: SXSW on February 09, 2021, 03:31:08 PM
The WPX building is the linchpin for Santa Fe Square. Not only for the office space but the residential as well. I would say the Annex is also tied to both of these developments. Exciting time for downtown if all these projects are able to get started.
I've been wondering about the Annex. I'm betting if they're still moving forward that Reasor's is waiting for things to calm down with COVID before breaking ground on a new store. Really with those two holes of parking lots filled in the entire downtown will feel a lot more cohesive with the View, Vast, GreenArch, etc. all done. The last thing I had heard about the Annex was they were seeking approval from the State of Oklahoma to capture the states portion of sale taxes... essentially what a TIF would do from the city. I assumed that passed but never heard anything about it or much about the project after that. I think they were seeking that in 2019 so it was at least over a year ago. I believe an AC Hotel was going to be part of the project too with the residential tower becoming slimmer and more vertical to accommodate the hotel along the west quarter of the block. I'm sure most hotel operators are not super eager to break ground on new projects yet either.
There's some smoke that this thing may actually get out of the ground sometime soon.
Quote from: Tulsan on April 08, 2021, 07:14:33 PM
There's some smoke that this thing may actually get out of the ground sometime soon.
Wasn't it always supposed to start as The View at Greenwood finished?
Quote from: swake on April 08, 2021, 08:00:30 PM
Wasn't it always supposed to start as The View at Greenwood finished?
The office portion too. Heard the tenant group is reaching critical mass with addition of a new name. May be the same old noise - but worth keeping ears to the ground.
Anyone hearing similar things?
Quote from: Tulsan on April 08, 2021, 08:45:18 PM
The office portion too. Heard the tenant group is reaching critical mass with addition of a new name. May be the same old noise - but worth keeping ears to the ground.
Anyone hearing similar things?
I would have believed that before the WPX news, but surely with the glut of office space available now that tower will be pushed back years. I just want them to start on the apartments this year and keep that train going.
Quote from: shavethewhales on April 09, 2021, 02:51:20 PM
I would have believed that before the WPX news, but surely with the glut of office space available now that tower will be pushed back years. I just want them to start on the apartments this year and keep that train going.
New office space is still somewhat desirable. The first thing to recover will be trophy and Class A assets.
Oddly enough I've heard the same thing that Santa Fe Square is only a few months away from beginning. I believe there's still some negotiation going on with the city and the related TIF. I was not able to confirm if Alamo Drafthouse is still part of the retail portion or if they're gone. I also didn't get much of a clue on who the office tenant(s).
Santa Fe Square has gotten close several times, so hopefully this is the time it all sticks. Having this hole filled in will really make a huge difference in the street level environment. You'll almost have full development all the way from the East Village through Blue Dome up to Cain's through Greenwood/Arts District. This and the BOK lots off Archer are the two biggest holes left to really fill in the neighborhood.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 09, 2021, 10:00:21 PM
New office space is still somewhat desirable. The first thing to recover will be trophy and Class A assets.
Oddly enough I've heard the same thing that Santa Fe Square is only a few months away from beginning. I believe there's still some negotiation going on with the city and the related TIF. I was not able to confirm if Alamo Drafthouse is still part of the retail portion or if they're gone. I also didn't get much of a clue on who the office tenant(s).
Santa Fe Square has gotten close several times, so hopefully this is the time it all sticks. Having this hole filled in will really make a huge difference in the street level environment. You'll almost have full development all the way from the East Village through Blue Dome up to Cain's through Greenwood/Arts District. This and the BOK lots off Archer are the two biggest holes left to really fill in the neighborhood.
Alamo is in bankruptcy. It's chapter 11, so not saying they are not still planning anything, but it's unlikely.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 09, 2021, 10:00:21 PM
Santa Fe Square has gotten close several times, so hopefully this is the time it all sticks. Having this hole filled in will really make a huge difference in the street level environment. You'll almost have full development all the way from the East Village through Blue Dome up to Cain's through Greenwood/Arts District. This and the BOK lots off Archer are the two biggest holes left to really fill in the neighborhood.
The PAC lot where the Annex is proposed is another big hole. I don't like to throw around the word "game changer" but fill that lot with a quality highrise residential project and urban grocery store like what was originally proposed and fill in Santa Fe Square with mixed-use apartments, retail and offices and the entire feel of the Blue Dome district will be completely different and much more urban and cohesive. Then it would just be infilling some of the other lots like 2nd & Detroit, redeveloping the KOTV property fronting Elgin, renovating the brick warehouse at 1st & Elgin, etc
looks like there is finally movement
cityoftulsa.org/apps/COTDisplayDocument/?DocumentType=Agenda&DocumentIdentifiers=22429
Any ideas who the "lead tenant" could be? It's going to be tough finding tenants for both the WPX project and this. I mentioned it before that I would love to see QT move downtown, but I highly doubt they have any interest.
"The newly formed Tulsa Authority for Economic Opportunity approved the issuance of up to $25 million in bonds for the Santa Fe Square project, which the city undertook with the establishment of Tax Increment Financing (TIF) District No. 8 in April 2016. . .
Project developer Elliot Nelson is negotiating a lease with a lead tenant in the project, which is set to begin construction in late summer."
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/long-planned-downtown-santa-fe-square-mixed-use-project-takes-big-step-forward/article_0c6cae48-a2bf-11eb-a5fd-8f8b39719566.html?fbclid=IwAR3zeUM0r-7X5vDbajk4ZaYUeMhfpVipP99VD60LYTAIt9eF82y8t5mEwcY#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Wasn't expecting this to push forward this year. I know that it was expected to start after the View, but considering the WPX debacle on top of lingering covid slow downs in higher-level businesses, I thought this would take awhile longer to get started. Not sure who they think is going to occupy the office space at this point. I'm also curious how fast the View will fill up...
So glad this parking crater is being filled, and another big new parking garage is sorely needed in this area. That surface lot isn't even being maintained, but they'll gladly charge an arm and a leg to park on broken glass and pot holes.
Quote from: DowntownDan on April 22, 2021, 02:34:19 PM
Any ideas who the "lead tenant" could be? It's going to be tough finding tenants for both the WPX project and this. I mentioned it before that I would love to see QT move downtown, but I highly doubt they have any interest.
My hunch is Magellan. I believe a lot of their leases line up to expire in 2022 last time I saw info on their portfolio a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to buy the WPX building and just didn't get the sale price or lease rate they wanted so they went over to Santa Fe Square. I believe Magellan is still spread out in several places so this would allow them to upgrade and consolidate space. The rates proposed at Santa Fe were lower than the WPX building which I have heard are being quoted around $30.00 to $35.00 while Santa Fe is in the mid $20's I believe now that they cheaped up the design. It was originally quoted over $30.00 when it was located off Elgin but dropped the rates when they changed design and moved the tower off Greenwood instead.
Quote from: shavethewhales on April 22, 2021, 03:47:58 PM
So glad this parking crater is being filled, and another big new parking garage is sorely needed in this area. That surface lot isn't even being maintained, but they'll gladly charge an arm and a leg to park on broken glass and pot holes.
A centralized garage here is needed - but they are way way way over building it and wasting millions on it that taxpayers are subsidizing with the TIF. Last I saw they are building over 2,000 spaces, that's crazy in size. Every garage I've been in that size (there's lots in Dallas) never fill up half. There's a size limit in garages that people become unwilling to park beyond a point. Same thing happens at the mall, people will drive around for 15 mins for find a 'close' spot. They'd be 1,000% better shrinking it to maybe a 1,000 max and installing smart parking systems (like you see at DFW/Love/etc.) where it guides you to open spaces. You have far better efficiency in space usage that way and it would be cheaper for the developer and they could spend that money on things that would actually make the development better (like materials, landscaping, street front design upgrades, etc.)
^They said 1,100 spaces in the TW article, so they must have paired it down a bit.
I'm surprised WPX is going that high. You'd think they'd cut a good deal for a big company to take over a good chunk of the space. Magellan would be perfect.
Quote from: shavethewhales on April 22, 2021, 10:20:55 PM
^They said 1,100 spaces in the TW article, so they must have paired it down a bit.
I'm surprised WPX is going that high. You'd think they'd cut a good deal for a big company to take over a good chunk of the space. Magellan would be perfect.
Really that's pretty cheap rental rate wise for new construction of that design/quality. Most other markets that'd be in the mid $40.00's at the lowest. Tulsa is just now trying to break out of the mold that you can't pay over $20.00 for Class A office, I think a lot of tenants had sticker shock at first when they proposed that. Once Vast did their building and people saw the finish out, etc. I think they realized what the extra money gets them in comparison to say $15.00 to 20.00 ish at the Williams/BOK Tower, First Place Tower, etc.
https://images4.loopnet.com/d2/8_VCKYE_d7rDSa40SmVDPZQIsMKFIXHEkYr5WHNI8wU/document.pdf
^ That's one iteration of the site plan after redesign from the original. I'm hoping they did reduce the garage size, I'm sure the site plan will have changed some unless Alamo is still planning to build post bankruptcy. At one point they had the garage size up to 1,929 spaces which would be about 4 spaces for every 1,000 sq. ft. of development (including the residential and retail) - that's ridiculous to have. Several of the largest office owners in Dallas recently did a study because that's the typical build out for office tenants there and they realized they were over building by 25 to 50%. That's a huge amount of revenue to miss out on as a developer when one space costs $25,000 to $30,000 depending on the garage. They realized that a ratio of around 2 spaces for 1,000 sq. ft. is likely better in modern offices and post pandemic that will continue to go down as more people work remote a few days a week.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 23, 2021, 09:48:29 AM
Really that's pretty cheap rental rate wise for new construction of that design/quality. Most other markets that'd be in the mid $40.00's at the lowest. Tulsa is just now trying to break out of the mold that you can't pay over $20.00 for Class A office, I think a lot of tenants had sticker shock at first when they proposed that. Once Vast did their building and people saw the finish out, etc. I think they realized what the extra money gets them in comparison to say $15.00 to 20.00 ish at the Williams/BOK Tower, First Place Tower, etc.
https://images4.loopnet.com/d2/8_VCKYE_d7rDSa40SmVDPZQIsMKFIXHEkYr5WHNI8wU/document.pdf
^ That's one iteration of the site plan after redesign from the original. I'm hoping they did reduce the garage size, I'm sure the site plan will have changed some unless Alamo is still planning to build post bankruptcy. At one point they had the garage size up to 1,929 spaces which would be about 4 spaces for every 1,000 sq. ft. of development (including the residential and retail) - that's ridiculous to have. Several of the largest office owners in Dallas recently did a study because that's the typical build out for office tenants there and they realized they were over building by 25 to 50%. That's a huge amount of revenue to miss out on as a developer when one space costs $25,000 to $30,000 depending on the garage. They realized that a ratio of around 2 spaces for 1,000 sq. ft. is likely better in modern offices and post pandemic that will continue to go down as more people work remote a few days a week.
And the advantage of overpriced office space is??????
"And the advantage of overpriced office space is?Huh??"
Higher priced real estate that still leases lures more development. Same reason to cheer for higher price condos and apartments to sell or lease quickly. It signals to developers to create more supply. At least that's my Econ 101 view on it.
I'm interested to see what the residential portion will look like. In the marketing brochure it shows the half block between Frankfort and Greenwood as future cinema, I wonder if that is still the plan? I know they were targeting Alamo Draft House. From what I've heard the apartment portion will be 180 units in 6 stories at 2nd & Elgin like what is shown the rendering below
(https://images4.loopnet.com/i2/o458ZaDgbkONM7H8TkcIEg0fR0jmazDokRUaNm60imc/112/image.jpg)
I think in total the apartments will be closer to 260. There's going to be some on top of the parking garage next to the office building that would be at Frankfurt (if it existed there) and 1st - kind of in the middle of that rendering. Then there's another portion along 2nd between Frankfurt and Elgin that you mentioned. In total it'll be about the same amount of units as the View. That might change depending on Alamo, I'm not sure if they'll add more apartment there or what. The noise issues of putting apartments above a theater without doing concrete construction forced them to move the apartments around a bit. There's been plenty of mixed-use residential above theaters in other markets but they're concrete construction which is not ARG's thing.
News on Alamo:
https://variety.com/2021/film/news/alamo-drafthouse-auction-canceled-fortress-altamont-1234960873/
Since they aren't being taken over by a new group, it's possible once the debt is restructured that they'll go back into expansion mode. Just not sure how soon that'd be and if it'd be soon enough for them to incorporate into the Santa Fe plans given they're supposed to be starting in a few months.
I think that is an old rendering and it looks different now.
^Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens to it now after the final revisions. It has gone through one round of value engineering and reconfiguring already, and I'm not sure the final round will do it any favors given the pressure on the market. Then again, it depends on what foundational clients they have. Landing Magellan could elevate the status of the whole property, plus the fact that it truly is some of the best real estate in the downtown area. I still wish they were building that curved building across from Blue Dome though.
Now if we can just figure out what to do with all of this!
(https://i.ibb.co/MV2kpZZ/006-F2-FDE-E671-4-C55-88-C4-DB86-D9615695.jpg)
Lots of opportunity to bridge the gap between the Blue Dome/Santa Fe Square and the CBD. Hopefully more incremental developments like the OTASCO/The Brook
Sort of related, in terms of downtown office space updates, we're doing a really cool update of the plaza level of the BOK Tower.
Basically taking out where all of the BOK tellers used to be on the north side of the main lobby and making a huge employee/tenant lounge type area and also converting the roof that overlooks 1st Street (facing north) into a large outdoor terrace area. (The BOK Tellers are moving to the lower level where you enter from 2nd Street).
The renderings look really nice. They are already under construction.
Quote from: Jeff P on April 29, 2021, 11:28:37 AM
Sort of related, in terms of downtown office space updates, we're doing a really cool update of the plaza level of the BOK Tower.
Basically taking out where all of the BOK tellers used to be on the north side of the main lobby and making a huge employee/tenant lounge type area and also converting the roof that overlooks 1st Street (facing north) into a large outdoor terrace area. (The BOK Tellers are moving to the lower level where you enter from 2nd Street).
The renderings look really nice. They are already under construction.
Nice! Thanks for the update. Are they making changes in the resource center/former Forum also?
I used to walk by that terrace from the skybridge and always thought it was a wasted space. I don't work in that building anymore but the bank also seemed liked wasted space. I'll need to walk through sometime to see the changes, out of curiosity.
Quote from: Oil Capital on April 29, 2021, 12:10:56 PM
Nice! Thanks for the update. Are they making changes in the resource center/former Forum also?
I don't think so. That's all still office space. I have heard they are wanting to bring back some more retail into the area where Hallmark and Stems used to be, but haven't heard any announcements on that yet.
Also I don't recall what they've said they're going to do with the original "cafeteria" type area on the lower level. Because once they finish with the "lounge/terrace" area, they are converting the area directly to the west (used to be a Level 3/CenturyLink/whatever server farm) into a new "food hall."
The Lounge Area/Terrace are supposed to be done this fall, and the food hall after that.
Here are some renderings:
Lounge area (area that used to be BOK tellers):
(https://i.imgur.com/yVRAJgF.png)
Terrace external view:
(https://i.imgur.com/RKmOSnl.png)
Terrace:
(https://i.imgur.com/qwVBPYQ.png)
Food hall:
(https://i.imgur.com/AJU92dI.png)
That looks great. I wish they had done that when I still worked in the building.
Quote from: Jeff P on April 29, 2021, 02:50:21 PM
I don't think so. That's all still office space. I have heard they are wanting to bring back some more retail into the area where Hallmark and Stems used to be, but haven't heard any announcements on that yet.
Also I don't recall what they've said they're going to do with the original "cafeteria" type area on the lower level. Because once they finish with the "lounge/terrace" area, they are converting the area directly to the west (used to be a Level 3/CenturyLink/whatever server farm) into a new "food hall."
The Lounge Area/Terrace are supposed to be done this fall, and the food hall after that.
Interesting. I was asking about the Resource Center because someone recently posted that Williams was moving people from the Resource Center back in to the Tower. As an aside, I always thought that was a very odd location for a server farm...
Quote from: Oil Capital on April 30, 2021, 02:29:24 PM
Interesting. I was asking about the Resource Center because someone recently posted that Williams was moving people from the Resource Center back in to the Tower. As an aside, I always thought that was a very odd location for a server farm...
I don't know of any broad initiative to move all or most of the employees in the Resource Center to the tower, but we are constantly shuffling people around, so it's very possible that some random people or groups moved from WRC to the tower.
Obviously with WPX floors coming open we could be doing some more shuffling around, depending on whatever potential new tenant(s) would fill that space.
I will say that the Resource Center seems like it would be a lot tougher to "partial out" into non-Williams tenants. The way it's configured now, you'd need one tenant to take either the entire 2nd or 3rd floor... and even then it would be tricky because there is a huge open staircase between the two floors and it's a totally open floor plan so would be tough, from a security standpoint.
I know it's been mentioned before, but I would love to see the streets reconnected through or around the Hyatt and Resource Center. It's probably prohibitively expensive, but I hate that the blocks are cut off. I otherwise don't know what the resource center could be used for. I think there might be a market for a shopping mall type retail center, but I would much prefer it be grown organically in some of the ground floors in the CBD, like in the past (the Philcade was originally a shopping market on the ground floor I think).
Quote from: DowntownDan on May 03, 2021, 03:59:18 PM
I know it's been mentioned before, but I would love to see the streets reconnected through or around the Hyatt and Resource Center. It's probably prohibitively expensive, but I hate that the blocks are cut off. I otherwise don't know what the resource center could be used for. I think there might be a market for a shopping mall type retail center, but I would much prefer it be grown organically in some of the ground floors in the CBD, like in the past (the Philcade was originally a shopping market on the ground floor I think).
Reconnecting Main would be amazing for downtown connectivity. I would assume Williams already owns the parking lot to the west of the Resource Center so if they decided to redevelop that whole block it could make sense to tear down the Resource Center and have frontage on Main and Boulder. The section between 2nd and 3rd is more difficult with the Hyatt in the way.
Quote from: SXSW on May 04, 2021, 12:11:44 AM
Reconnecting Main would be amazing for downtown connectivity. I would assume Williams already owns the parking lot to the west of the Resource Center so if they decided to redevelop that whole block it could make sense to tear down the Resource Center and have frontage on Main and Boulder. The section between 2nd and 3rd is more difficult with the Hyatt in the way.
I'd like to see them reconfigure the Hyatt site on 3rd street ---- make Samson Plaza a proper main drive entrance to the hotel and a green space. It was always a hotel without a front door to me. Not sure how you'd get Main opened to 2nd street without taking down a lot of building. To make a proper hotel entrance, they may have to build up a floor or two to stack meeting space.
Totally off topic --- back when it was a Western International Hotel (pre Westin) I was a kid and they had an area in the upstairs lobby with brochures for all the other Western International Hotels. I got one or two of each... maybe 20-30 hotels? They were slick and expensive feeling then --- I doubt they could afford them now. They may still be in a box somewhere in storage.
Quote from: Oil Capital on April 30, 2021, 02:29:24 PM
Interesting. I was asking about the Resource Center because someone recently posted that Williams was moving people from the Resource Center back in to the Tower. As an aside, I always thought that was a very odd location for a server farm...
Unless I'm getting turned around in my head (which happens a lot), that little area to the west used to be the Vyvx NOC with the Video Services area right by it before we moved into the ice cube. If so it would make sense to use the area as a server farm since fiber and such was already run throughout it.
Quote from: shavethewhales on April 27, 2021, 03:35:29 PM
^Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens to it now after the final revisions. It has gone through one round of value engineering and reconfiguring already, and I'm not sure the final round will do it any favors given the pressure on the market. Then again, it depends on what foundational clients they have. Landing Magellan could elevate the status of the whole property, plus the fact that it truly is some of the best real estate in the downtown area. I still wish they were building that curved building across from Blue Dome though.
With the dramatic material cost increases this past year, this building is likely being reengineered (again) to cut out more costs. If this building gets built, I fear it will be a Cimarex-like disappointment compared to any of the prior renderings, and the renderings themselves represent an ongoing series of lowering expectations.
Quote from: DTowner on May 04, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
With the dramatic material cost increases this past year, this building is likely being reengineered (again) to cut out more costs. If this building gets built, I fear it will be a Cimarex-like disappointment compared to any of the prior renderings, and the renderings themselves represent an ongoing series of lowering expectations.
From what I've heard the apartment portion will be mostly brick similar to The View. Not ground breaking architecture by any means but solid infill in an area that sorely needs it.
Quote from: DTowner on May 04, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
With the dramatic material cost increases this past year, this building is likely being reengineered (again) to cut out more costs. If this building gets built, I fear it will be a Cimarex-like disappointment compared to any of the prior renderings, and the renderings themselves represent an ongoing series of lowering expectations.
I doubt it will be that bad. I will expect that most or all the retail will not be built at this time.
Quote from: swake on May 04, 2021, 08:24:35 PM
I doubt it will be that bad. I will expect that most or all the retail will not be built at this time.
Building the retail will be unavailable if they plan to include it. If they don't include it then it will never be there. The only part they might not build out is where the theater was planned, but anything that has something vertical above it they're going to have to at least build out the shell space in the process.
Quote from: DTowner on May 04, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
With the dramatic material cost increases this past year, this building is likely being reengineered (again) to cut out more costs. If this building gets built, I fear it will be a Cimarex-like disappointment compared to any of the prior renderings, and the renderings themselves represent an ongoing series of lowering expectations.
Lumber is the main material cost that is creating issues. That won't impact the finishes on the office portion which will be steel and concrete then whatever facade they choose.
Cimarex was a really unique situation. They were originally in the One Gas building and Kanbar at that point was a mess and they pissed off a lot of tenants. Thankfully Price is a much better ownership group now that Kanbar is gone. Cimarex had been attempting to renew there for several years and it got to the point they said F it we'll go elsewhere. Well at that point the vacancy rate downtown in occupy-able space (excluding older obsolete buildings and building not owned by Kanbar) was about 1%. The only option was to build new. Well Cimarex is cheap, to put it nicely. They basically said we need this amount of space and we refuse to pay more than $20.00 sq. ft. - so the developer did it, well when you're building new with that amount of income on an urban site you get a POS building. So it was either that or Cimarex was going to close their Tulsa office. The developer frankly made the building as nice as they could given the economics of that deal. Hopefully some day in the future someone will buy that building and pull the facade off and replace it with glass or maybe add some detailing. As long as Cimarex is the tenant that won't happen though.
So, unless the Santa Fe deal signs an anchor tenant at $20.00 or below it won't look as bad as Cimarex and shouldn't be value engineered much beyond that last set of renderings. The size of the TIF will help some too hopefully to at least make the street level higher quality. Really that the important part, if the street level is built out shitty it will be a complete failure of a project given how it connects so many districts together. It could be ugly from floors 3 and up and you'll never notice it outside of an aerial picture if the street level is done right. That's another reason the Cimarex building is such a failure is because the street level was done so poorly with pedestrian access to the retail space.
Quote from: DTowner on May 04, 2021, 05:32:06 PM
With the dramatic material cost increases this past year, this building is likely being reengineered (again) to cut out more costs. If this building gets built, I fear it will be a Cimarex-like disappointment compared to any of the prior renderings, and the renderings themselves represent an ongoing series of lowering expectations.
Welp - there goes the Sandwich bar.
Quote from: swake on May 04, 2021, 08:24:35 PM
I doubt it will be that bad. I will expect that most or all the retail will not be built at this time.
I was told there would still be retail but didn't hear anything else on possible redesign.
Construction appears to have started on this. Fence went up last week, and now there are construction trailers on site. Still in the setup phase.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 02, 2021, 08:55:17 AM
Construction appears to have started on this. Fence went up last week, and now there are construction trailers on site. Still in the setup phase.
Was it around the entire parking lot or just part of it? I haven't been down there in a few weeks. Doesn't look like there's any permits yet on the site but the portal has been a bit odd since the ransomware attack. I'd assume we should be seeing more of the construction plans soon then hopefully. I am a bit surprised with how quite they are being about the plans, especially now that they have the TIF bond approved and are close to breaking ground, why aren't they being more public about the plans - seems a bit sketchy but I have hope with some of the people in the groups involved it will be a good project but some of the group I have far less faith in them.
I'm hopeful this will be a good, as long as they get the street level right and doesn't end up being a massive parking garage over half the site. Given the way they did the TIF on this project there should have been way more transparency and public input - I'm incredibly disappointed in that given the risk the city is taking bonding costs upfront. If the developers are asking that, I don't care that it's Elliot Nelson as one of them, this should have been vetted in public more.
They still have half the parking lot open. The fenced area is now full of shipping containers and construction trailers, so I guess it is just staging as opposed to actually breaking ground yet, but obviously that is imminent. Probably getting started as we speak now that the holiday weekend is over.
The office and garage portion are getting ready to start construction. The multi family portion starts in the spring.
This is the rendering from the TW article. Hopefully we see more but I liked the original version better
(https://bloximages-newyork1-vip-townnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/31/231cf038-df7a-11eb-91e9-db06dc483f9f/60e6371b4ce4c.image.jpg?resize=1024%2C672)
Quote from: SXSW on July 07, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
This is the rendering from the TW article. Hopefully we see more but I liked the original version better
(https://bloximages-newyork1-vip-townnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/31/231cf038-df7a-11eb-91e9-db06dc483f9f/60e6371b4ce4c.image.jpg?resize=1024%2C672)
Ugh. Kinda makes me miss the parking lot.
What a disappointment. Each iteration of this concept has gotten exponentially worse. The office building/parking garage is bland, but I'll accept it. The apartment block however... there's no excuse for that gaudy stucco/brick combo. It's like they decided they just needed to build SOMETHING since they've been sitting on this so long and went with something as cheap as possible. This is going to be an eyesore from day 1.
This rendering just makes me glad the WPX Building was anywhere remotely close to what its original renderings looked like.
Not quite as bad, but this reminds me of Cimarex.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/a-long-time-coming-work-begins-on-downtown-tulsas-santa-fe-square/article_60a7a4e4-df33-11eb-94dc-dfdabaac7aba.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
There's the Tulsaworld link for the rest of the details.
The concept is great. Elliot Nelson has been working on this for so long. It's just unfortunate they seem to be settling so much compared to the lofty ideas he threw around just a few years ago. Obviously the world has changed quite a bit in 17 years, but timeless design is still timeless, and ugly will always be ugly. I like the idea of a shopping corridor and returning this area into a lively neighborhood. If they could replace the white stucco with something else and add some kind of relief/interest to the apartment block between now and spring, that would drastically improve things.
I'm curious what the other side looks like now. This is the 2nd street side. They moved the tower from 3rd and greenwood to 2nd and greenwood, so this is right across from Whiskey 918
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 08, 2021, 09:00:12 AM
I'm curious what the other side looks like now.
Probably more of the same ugly.
I am curious about the 1st street side as well this all appears to be along 2nd St. Do the apartment residents park in the office garage?
So the newson6 story has a different rendering somehow, and this on is all brick? It looks SO MUCH better.
https://www.newson6.com/story/60e666fe134449730f1c5be6/new-santa-fe-square-development-breaks-ground-in-blue-dome-district
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 08, 2021, 09:24:32 AM
So the newson6 story has a different rendering somehow, and this on is all brick? It looks SO MUCH better.
https://www.newson6.com/story/60e666fe134449730f1c5be6/new-santa-fe-square-development-breaks-ground-in-blue-dome-district
I was told the city wants the apartments to be all brick. The apartment designs are still conceptual as that phase won't start until mid-2022.
Quote from: Tulsan on April 08, 2021, 08:45:18 PM
The office portion too. Heard the tenant group is reaching critical mass with addition of a new name. May be the same old noise - but worth keeping ears to the ground.
Anyone hearing similar things?
I wasn't able to say it but this was when Hall Estill signed on. Their lease was the final piece of the puzzle.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 05, 2021, 10:40:05 AM
Doesn't look like there's any permits yet on the site but the portal has been a bit odd since the ransomware attack.
Search BLDC-090057-2021. That's the permit for the office and garage portions. There are not yet plans available for download but they've been submitted. You could probably go down to City Hall and get them.
Residential piece is not yet part of the permitted plans - slated for final phase like SXSW said.
Quote from: SXSW on July 08, 2021, 09:12:07 AM
I am curious about the 1st street side as well this all appears to be along 2nd St. Do the apartment residents park in the office garage?
The garage is being permitted to include future residential parking, yes.
Quote from: Tulsan on July 08, 2021, 09:55:42 AM
The garage is being permitted to include future residential parking, yes.
I talked to someone who is familiar with the project yesterday. The tower and garage podium will extend from 1st to 2nd on Greenwood. Not ideal but there is ground floor retail space included at the corners of 1st and 2nd & Greenwood and the lobby areas will front Greenwood with a new streetscape that ties into the other streetscape improvements north of 1st.
The apartments will take up the space between 1st and 2nd west of the office/garage and east of the Santa Fe Building and Hotel Indigo. The buildings fronting 2nd will have ground floor retail space including a big corner retail/restaurant space like The View on Elgin. There will be streetscape work along both 1st and 2nd between Elgin and Greenwood. In all the project will have 30,000 sf of retail/restaurant space.
How the heck do you add an image to a post? lol. I see the "insert image" icon above where you type in the wording but can't seem to drag and drop, or insert an image into it that shows up.
Quote from: TheArtist on July 09, 2021, 09:17:14 PM
How the heck do you add an image to a post? lol. I see the "insert image" icon above where you type in the wording but can't seem to drag and drop, or insert an image into it that shows up.
You can link to an image that is hosted somewhere else, by adding "img" before the http:// and "/img" at the end of the URL, but substitute brackets [] for the quotes in my example.
Quote from: patric on July 09, 2021, 10:36:10 PM
You can link to an image that is hosted somewhere else, by adding "img" before the http:// and "/img" at the end of the URL, but substitute brackets [] for the quotes in my example.
Its not an image that is "hosted" anywhere else, I created it in photoshop on my computer.
Quote from: TheArtist on July 10, 2021, 09:04:32 AM
Its not an image that is "hosted" anywhere else, I created it in photoshop on my computer.
You can upload it to your decopolis website and pull the pic from there or send me the pic and I'll upload it to our website and send you the link.
New/different rendering:
(https://i.ibb.co/s1rWBYD/1619440021-220-The-office-of-the-future-is-outdoors.jpg)
from CallisonRTKL
They talk a bit about the building in this article from April:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90628880/the-office-of-the-future-is-outdoors?partner=feedburner&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fastcodesign%2Ffeed+%28Co.Design%29
Hopefully the project looks more like this versus the other renderings given how much TIF money they are getting.
That looks better in the courtyard, albeit it's mostly a lot of empty space for "events". The foliage looks good, but you never know how well it actually gets implemented in reality. Still think the apartments on the left need to be more brick and more classic in nature. The stucco-looking elements cheapen it.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 08, 2021, 08:45:44 AM
What a disappointment. Each iteration of this concept has gotten exponentially worse. The office building/parking garage is bland, but I'll accept it. The apartment block however... there's no excuse for that gaudy stucco/brick combo. It's like they decided they just needed to build SOMETHING since they've been sitting on this so long and went with something as cheap as possible. This is going to be an eyesore from day 1.
Unfortunately, this project has had all of the life cost engineered out of it and the as built version is going to be worse than this rendering. And the actual space has much worse issues than the outside appearance.
Quote from: DTowner on July 22, 2021, 03:48:54 PM
Unfortunately, this project has had all of the life cost engineered out of it and the as built version is going to be worse than this rendering. And the actual space has much worse issues than the outside appearance.
Reasons to remain optimistic about this project:
1. RTKL and Selser Schaefer are good designers
2. Elliott Nelson is heavily invested in this area and this is a legacy project
3. ARG generally develops quality projects (The Metro, The View, The Edge is ok)
I didn't get a photo last night, but the entire east side of the block under the tower/garage has been excavated at least 3 ft. already. Will be interesting to see what kind of foundations they are going to put in. I assume there won't be a basement level, so we'll probably see them start to set up piles in a week or two. I'm excited to see some vertical construction start on this thing.
Quote from: SXSW on July 22, 2021, 09:24:06 PM
Reasons to remain optimistic about this project:
1. RTKL and Selser Schaefer are good designers
2. Elliott Nelson is heavily invested in this area and this is a legacy project
3. ARG generally develops quality projects (The Metro, The View, The Edge is ok)
Architects are only as good as how cheap the developer is, haha. The guys behind the office tower are pretty cheap and I am a bit afraid they've probably removed RTKL and cheapened up the project further based on the lack of renderings released. Hopefully I'm wrong and it will look more like the RTKL rendering.
ARG does build good apartments, they have built horrific street level retail in every building they've included it though. They have no clue in that regard and that's the most important piece to urban areas. It's really not that complicated to do, they just need to walk around a few cities with active urban neighborhoods and it's pretty easy to pick up on what makes retail successful in a multi-use property. Then they blame the market for not being strong enough when it has everything to do with how they build it.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 25, 2021, 11:48:56 AM
Architects are only as good as how cheap the developer is, haha. The guys behind the office tower are pretty cheap and I am a bit afraid they've probably removed RTKL and cheapened up the project further based on the lack of renderings released. Hopefully I'm wrong and it will look more like the RTKL rendering.
ARG does build good apartments, they have built horrific street level retail in every building they've included it though. They have no clue in that regard and that's the most important piece to urban areas. It's really not that complicated to do, they just need to walk around a few cities with active urban neighborhoods and it's pretty easy to pick up on what makes retail successful in a multi-use property. Then they blame the market for not being strong enough when it has everything to do with how they build it.
The small-scale retail at the Metro is done well IMO
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/ca/eca5dd9b-2cec-5471-823c-7c6b2dc6bfe8/557cbf9de3ff8.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C805)
The jury is still out on the View but I like the large corner retail space and I know there is also a smaller retail space fronting Elgin as well as another on Archer east of the corner space
Quote from: SXSW on July 25, 2021, 11:53:32 AM
The small-scale retail at the Metro is done well IMO
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/ca/eca5dd9b-2cec-5471-823c-7c6b2dc6bfe8/557cbf9de3ff8.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C805)
The jury is still out on the View but I like the large corner retail space and I know there is also a smaller retail space fronting Elgin as well as another on Archer east of the corner space
My problem with the retail space at the Metro is unless you are walking along the sidewalk in front of the building you'd have no idea the retail was even there. It took them forever to lease those spaces for that reason and then they used that logic to take away retail in the View. I do find it ironic that there were literally thousands of square feet of retail spaces built out and leased around those projects but they somehow believe there's no market for retail downtown.
The View should have never been allowed to remove the retail along half it's frontage on Archer. It should have been retail the full frontage.
They just need to improve the visibility of the retail spaces, build out different facades or just make the spaces more visible. They are doing the same thing at the View where the retail space has no distinction from the rest of the building.
There will be a big contrast between the Vast building and the View. The Vast building did a great job at incorporating retail in the ground floor and certainly had no problem leasing the spaces. I bet the retail space at the View will sit vacant for a long time or will be leased to a more passive retailer like a bank or something less tied to high traffic volumes.
I have been told a restaurant is looking at the Archer & Elgin corner retail space at The View. I've been in this space and it has high ceilings with big windows, it will be a great spot for a destination restaurant.
Successful/vibrant urban retail needs...
1. Retail next to and facing more retail (some special exceptions may apply)
2. Minimum 14' ceilings. (some special exceptions may apply)
3. Lots of: Awnings, loggias, connected interiors. (some special exceptions may apply)
4. Approximately 6 contiguous blocks of said retail. (some special exceptions may apply)
I didn't stop by for a picture, but they are really moving quickly with construction here. Foundations are already set apparently, and as I went by yesterday there was rebar sticking out of the ground nearly ready for vertical construction to start imminently. Guessing this gets off the ground next week? I guess it helps that this building apparently doesn't have a basement. The foundations appeared to be mostly drilled cast-in-place piers from what little I have peeked at while driving past.
I know the architecture may not be that exciting, but I am looking forward to seeing the impact it will have on our skyline for this area. Between this, Vast, and WPX (or whatever we are calling it now), and several other infils, this area suddenly feels kinda dense and urban.
One of the things with a cheaper facade is that you can always rip it off and or upgrade if the building is making money. If you get an area going with the right critical mass (and a developer may need to pinch some pennies on the facade at first) it can then be worth the investment to upgrade as time goes on. Do the best you can at first and make it successful, then keep improving.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 26, 2021, 09:27:24 PM
One of the things with a cheaper facade is that you can always rip it off and or upgrade if the building is making money. If you get an area going with the right critical mass (and a developer may need to pinch some pennies on the facade at first) it can then be worth the investment to upgrade as time goes on. Do the best you can at first and make it successful, then keep improving.
I think they said that the city rejected the EIFS siding and required brick. I don't think it's an issue now.
This phase is much bigger than I initially thought. From the BOK Tower, it's going to be massive. All the way from 1st to 2nd street.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on September 07, 2021, 01:00:50 PM
This phase is much bigger than I initially thought. From the BOK Tower, it's going to be massive. All the way from 1st to 2nd street.
The parking garage footprint is from 1st to 2nd and 309k sq ft on 6 levels with 720 stalls. The office tower portion is only 6 levels above the garage and is 135,000 sq ft. They are also parking the residential portion within the garage which is why it is so large.
(https://imgur.com/aNkMaFS.jpg)
So much rebar sticking out of the ground. Looks like they are working on an elevator core foundation? This was taken on tuesday evening.
Looks like the tower crane was being set on Friday. Should be exciting to see that go up this week.
(https://imgur.com/IeTkm8p.jpg)
Took this on Tuesday evening of the first tower crane being setup. Looks like there's a second base on the other side.
They are already well on their way with vertical construction. Lots of the first level columns are already poured.
Are there any new renderings of the office building?
Quote from: SXSW on September 30, 2021, 03:33:31 PM
Are there any new renderings of the office building?
I find this one on their website:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/54/9f/2e549f91908233561dd73c8bf8218a81.jpg)
Possibly I was on the wrong website. ;D
/ I'm here all week, folks!
Quote from: tulsabug on September 30, 2021, 06:22:49 PM
I find this one on their website:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/54/9f/2e549f91908233561dd73c8bf8218a81.jpg)
Possibly I was on the wrong website. ;D
/ I'm here all week, folks!
I doubt the final product will look like this rendering. Probably another bait and switch. There will likely be fewer flowers and I doubt in the end they can afford to have it be red. Probably only one window upstairs and who knows if that path will be curved. Most likely it will end up straight.
(https://imgur.com/8DjjxYl.jpg)
Two cranes now. Bottom level of columns have been poured for just about the entire floor. They don't seem very high. I know it's a parking level, but usually the first level is a bit taller. They are still digging around and getting ready to pour the floor slab though.
Another angle
(https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/244164972_4413609818715074_5804290202334064443_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=rjKE2YFcf0sAX_SEmRA&tn=1n3eGh-esQMtKFKs&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=2c4266702c6a0dbc3e6dd72ce944f66e&oe=615EB5F5)
Tower crane skyline view
(https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C5622AQF80zZwqjVIXA/feedshare-shrink_2048_1536/0/1634665927910?e=1637798400&v=beta&t=KTQR76-2AsnLWKiK7dPLhOm2bHQV7MyfiWXTKOBwEKw)
(https://imgur.com/ISGTfcE.jpg)
Current status. The McNellies Pub Run was going on during this photo, hence the police cruiser.
They are already starting on the second level on one end. It's going together pretty quickly for cast-in-place construction. Lots of ramps and such to pour.
Excited to watch this one go up and for the mixed-use residential portion to start next summer. I'm hearing two 4 story buildings, all brick, with retail/restaurant space at 2nd & Elgin and along a new plaza fronting 2nd St. There will be walk-up units along 1st St. Renderings should be released soon.
Quote from: SXSW on November 08, 2021, 07:02:35 AM
Excited to watch this one go up and for the mixed-use residential portion to start next summer. I'm hearing two 4 story buildings, all brick, with retail/restaurant space at 2nd & Elgin and along a new plaza fronting 2nd St. There will be walk-up units along 1st St. Renderings should be released soon.
Where would these walk up units be? I'm having a hard time visualizing how they fit in with everything else.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on November 10, 2021, 03:58:46 PM
Where would these walk up units be? I'm having a hard time visualizing how they fit in with everything else.
Just west of the garage fronting 2nd St
Quote from: SXSW on November 10, 2021, 06:09:57 PM
Just west of the garage fronting 2nd St
Do you know if they will have flex space that someone would be able to have say an art studio or some sort of business - essentially like a live/work unit versus just an apartment with a walk up entrance from the sidewalk? It would be awesome to see them as live/work units and have some small businesses along 1st versus it just be dead space with apartments.
I did read in a Tulsa People article I think a month or so ago that Elliot is going to put in a "fine dining" concept that will open to the plaza... not sure how much other sq. ft. they are dedicating to retail beside that but hopefully space for a few others. Hopefully they build out patio space into the plaza so the plaza does not just become one of those vacant voids many of them become.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on November 11, 2021, 01:50:29 PM
Do you know if they will have flex space that someone would be able to have say an art studio or some sort of business - essentially like a live/work unit versus just an apartment with a walk up entrance from the sidewalk? It would be awesome to see them as live/work units and have some small businesses along 1st versus it just be dead space with apartments.
I did read in a Tulsa People article I think a month or so ago that Elliot is going to put in a "fine dining" concept that will open to the plaza... not sure how much other sq. ft. they are dedicating to retail beside that but hopefully space for a few others. Hopefully they build out patio space into the plaza so the plaza does not just become one of those vacant voids many of them become.
I meant 1st Street, sorry for the confusion. The garage is at 1st & Greenwood and the walk-up apartments will be due west of that structure. Not sure about the live-work units but that would be great to see. Hopefully once this development is complete there will be additional infill on the other side of 1st east of McNellies/Albert G's including the cool old vacant brick building at the NW corner of 1st & Greenwood.
The retail/restaurants will be focused along 2nd St including the 2nd & Elgin corner and all around the plaza at 2nd & Frankfort with outdoor seating. It should be a really fantastic public space and ties into all of the new and planned retail developments along Frankfort north of 5th St (Phat Tire/Boxyard/NEFF Brewing/Poppi's/East End Village).
(https://imgur.com/exYrR9F.jpg)
This was taken just before Christmas. This thing is already filling up the area. 8 more floors to go!
ARG, the developer of the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square, will be starting that project this summer. Look for additional renderings of that one to be released soon but will be very similar but only 4 stories in two buildings - classic brick facade but with more ground floor retail space. I know ARG is also looking at another downtown site as well as a site in midtown for market-rate apartments in addition to their projects in DFW and Austin.
Quote from: SXSW on December 30, 2021, 01:02:02 PM
I know ARG is also looking at another downtown site as well as a site in midtown for market-rate apartments in addition to their projects in DFW and Austin.
(https://c.tenor.com/p-DpG_Z5-WYAAAAC/tell-me-more-michael-scott.gif)
(https://imgur.com/fRmg5sR.jpg)
Getting pretty big now.
This has a very big impact on the surrounding area already. With this and the WPX building plus other infill, blue dome/arts are starting to actually feel like a decently dense city
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on February 01, 2022, 01:35:40 PM
This has a very big impact on the surrounding area already. With this and the WPX building plus other infill, blue dome/arts are starting to actually feel like a decently dense city
Just wait until the multifamily portion of Santa Fe and PAC Annex are under construction. Still hearing both will start this summer.
Renderings:
(https://i.ibb.co/jrZmKbv/1644511752197.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5rhnqXq/1644511745720.jpg)
I like the sign, feel like it would look better on the corner along Elgin, kind of blends into the office building given its height.
I'm disappointed in the retail facades, ARG really does not seem to be able to hire an architect who can design proper urban storefronts. It's going to be a super block of bland monochromatic storefronts now. I think the brick on the apartments will look nice though, that part of the View is very nice and at least doesn't make the building look super cheap compared to a lot of wood frame construction.
I think the sign will be cool to see over the plaza and looking down Frankfort Ave. like the retail awnings, that will be a nice touch in the summer before the trees that are planted are tall enough to provide enough shade.
The buildings are both four stories tall but with the taller retail level they will seem like closer to 5 story buildings which will make a big visual impact along Elgin, 2nd and 1st.
That looks so much better. I think the tower needed more attention since the parking garage is so exposed, but it is what it is. At least the main pedestrian area looks great now. The sign is a nice touch.
Looks nice! A bit surprised there aren't more balconies overlooking the street. If I was a resident I think that'd be something I'd want.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on February 15, 2022, 12:55:25 PM
Looks nice! A bit surprised there aren't more balconies overlooking the street. If I was a resident I think that'd be something I'd want.
There are balconies overlooking the plaza and also in the courtyards.
(https://imgur.com/tmIK4kD.jpg)
On the other side of this they are already starting to put up siding/cladding materials. Probably be awhile before actual brickwork starts, but this is coming together fast.
Walked by yesterday, they've already started to place brick on the SE corner. Looks pretty good so far, I think the color is going to be very nice.
(https://i.ibb.co/PGMrb7n/20220415-135957.jpg)
I cant emphasize enough what a monumentally bad idea this is:
Elliot Nelson is not known for muddling along. He thinks big.
So why not put a giant LED screen downtown where people could watch the OU/Texas football game, be bedazzled by digital art, and enjoy a good meal and the company of friends along the way?
Nelson's even picked out the perfect spot for it — the plaza at Santa Fe Square, the $100 million-plus mixed-use development he and his partners are building.
"The idea is we are going to anchor the east end of downtown with this project," Nelson said. "I think that is why I have kind of gotten around this idea of making that plaza as dynamic as we can and as active as we can, and trying to make it a real kind of focal point for public gathering over there."
It was a couple of people on Nelson's development team who came up with the idea as they kicked around concepts for providing screening between the plaza and an adjacent parking garage.
Rather than plaza diners looking up at the parking garage that will occupy the lower levels of Santa Fe Square's 12-story office building on the east end of the development, they'll look up to see digital art, sporting events and other displays on a 30-foot by 50-foot digital screen.
Nelson knows there will be questions about how late the digital screen will stay lit at night, and whether it could create a dangerous distraction for motorists along Second Street.
The latter question isn't a huge concern to him, he said, because the area — with its angled parking on both sides of the Second Street and other planned traffic-calming measures — should induce a slower pace of traffic.
When it comes to the big screen's hours of operation, Nelson said a lot will depend on the people living in the apartments.
"Since those apartment tenants will be ours, as well, that's obviously going to be of utmost concern, keeping our residents happy," he said. "So we are going to manage it in a way that those people are happy with the way it is on and off. I think most nights we'll be turning it off fairly early."
Can he envision an occasional exception to that statement? Perhaps.
"I would think the only time we would have something on really late is if there were a game that garnered a lot of local interest that was on later," Nelson said. "You would probably push it a little bit, but other than that, I think the priority is going to be keeping the tenants happy in those apartments and making sure that they are not unnecessarily harmed by the light being on."
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/massive-led-screen-planned-at-santa-fe-square-a-focal-point-for-public-gathering-developer/article_ecbe582a-bb37-11ec-bf35-13c912e9f016.html
Thats a lot of evasive developer-speak to pack into one article, imho.
I think the screen opens up the plaza to more types of activities. There is nothing else like it downtown or anywhere in Tulsa.
Quote from: SXSW on April 17, 2022, 05:45:15 PM
I think the screen opens up the plaza to more types of activities. There is nothing else like it downtown or anywhere in Tulsa.
If you dont count billboards. The TV-on-a-stick video displays like the one at 41st & Yale comes to mind, or casinos.
Quote from: SXSW on April 17, 2022, 05:45:15 PM
I think the screen opens up the plaza to more types of activities. There is nothing else like it downtown or anywhere in Tulsa.
I think it's a cool idea for downtown, but not sure if this makes the best location for it given how many apartment units will have windows toward the screen. I don't think they're going to be able to utilize it as much as they think without having issues with keeping those units occupied. The reason the AT&T plaza and even the screens around AA Center in Dallas work is because there's not residential looking directly at the screens. Same with Power & Light in KC.
Will be better than looking at an exposed parking garage though, just hopefully they spend the money to be able to dim the screen substantially at night when they aren't having an event. AT&T plaza was done really well so if they invest the design of the plaza to be similar that space should turn out well, hopefully they don't cheap out on the plaza and just make it a massive open area of pavers. It needs to have some substantial landscaping, shade, etc. or that plaza will not be usable for most of the year.
Anyone heard who the other tenants are that have leased space? Supposedly it's 90%+ preleased now which would mean another company beside Hall Estill has signed on for space.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 18, 2022, 12:46:15 PM
I think it's a cool idea for downtown, but not sure if this makes the best location for it given how many apartment units will have windows toward the screen. I don't think they're going to be able to utilize it as much as they think without having issues with keeping those units occupied. The reason the AT&T plaza and even the screens around AA Center in Dallas work is because there's not residential looking directly at the screens.
The developer comes across with a "If you dont like it get out of my building" attitude but that wont help other residents dazzled by the giant TV outside.
It's interesting how many units downtown are going to be right in the mix of so many things going on. The Davenport is right smack next to Soundpony and overlooking Cain's/inner circle, the View obviously is right over the ballpark with all their fireworks, and now this. I'm kind of intrigued, but at the same time I'll bet it gets old when you need to get some sleep and there's always a party going on outside for something or other.
I think this screen sounds interesting though. I like the idea of the plaza being activated rather than just being an empty space most of the time.
Personally I think having a big LED board sounds pretty awesome. The discovery center down here is really cool, but I think a better comparison is the screen put on the side of the AA center. Would be a great place to watch sporting events. Really animates area and sort of gives a block party-vibe. Will be interesting to see if it's going to be used for future Tulsa Tough's!
Maybe Elliott has been watching Blade Runner too much...
(https://preview.redd.it/cty4eqn73yc51.jpg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6bd07d9b06300b4f687d131ae088b3eab067cde5)
(https://imgur.com/b41bCdo.jpg)
This thing is almost ready to top off it seems.
I think it has one more floor to go (above the halfway complete one?) Very close either way. Its height has a bigger impact on downtown than I would have initially guessed.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on May 17, 2022, 09:50:37 AM
I think it has one more floor to go (above the halfway complete one?) Very close either way. Its height has a bigger impact on downtown than I would have initially guessed.
What is the height of the proposed PAC Annex compared to this building?
Quote from: SXSW on May 17, 2022, 10:49:25 AM
What is the height of the proposed PAC Annex compared to this building?
Initially I think it was something like 27 stories, but several months an article came out about it being downsized. Haven't heard anything since.
Quote from: SXSW on May 17, 2022, 10:49:25 AM
What is the height of the proposed PAC Annex compared to this building?
They will be almost the same height. PAC Annex will be more floors but parking is essentially underground from the 3rd Street side. So they will end up being similar in final elevation when looking at the skyline.
Quote from: Rattle Trap on May 17, 2022, 10:56:51 AM
Initially I think it was something like 27 stories, but several months an article came out about it being downsized. Haven't heard anything since.
The design shifted. Given Reasor's pulled out and this is now Homeland, the grocer will have about a 15,000 sq ft smaller floorplate which will allow them to shift around the residential and hotel. The hotel will now be able to go on the corner of 3rd & Cincinnati versus 2nd. So the residential portion will now go along the entire 2nd St frontage versus just the corner of it along Detroit. So the residential portion floorplate will be wider and thus less floors than the revised renderings. It will look much more like the original renderings when it was initial proposed.
Office tower has officially topped out. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/manhattan-construction-company_buildingexcellence-activity-6948657674397917185-J7Kz?utm_source=linkedin_share&utm_medium=member_desktop_web
Exterior cladding is well on it's way and you can see in the photos that windows are already going up on the north side at least.
I think we're all even more excited for the retail/residential portion though. As SXSW mentioned in the PAC thread, they have until Sept. 1 to get started before TIF penalties start. Hopefully they are just waiting on construction of this to get a bit further so they can fit in better. Not much room for staging anymore.
Largest tower crane is being taken down today... hopefully that means they're shifting to the next phase!
I noticed that. They had semi's lined up down 2nd for it. Quite an operation to remove or set one of those things up. It was all down by yesterday evening.
They are moving quickly with the cladding on the north side.
(https://imgur.com/S48luzQ.jpg)
Cladding almost done on the north side.... pretty basic on that side. The brick is really just an accent on this tower.
I actually think the glass color looks pretty sharp. Excited to see this one finish up.
Looking forward to seeing the apartments go up on that lot next to the garage
I did find out not too long ago the second tenant is Laredo Energy. They are taking up every floor below the law firm except the lowest floor above the garage. So there's 1 floor available still and that's it. Laredo will be consolidating out of the Bank of America tower.
https://manhattanconstructiongroup.com/manhattan-construction-company/resource/santa-fe-square-tulsa-oklahoma-webcam/
I didn't realize they had such great construction cams for this project. I think I checked these months ago and they weren't working too well, but now they give a great view of the cladding going up. Already nearly finished on the north and going strong on the south and east sides.
They have updated the signage at the corner of Elgin & 2nd with the latest renderings. The Apartments look really good now. They have added some more detail to the facades and put a large neon looking sign on top that will make this area pop. Can't find the updated renderings online yet though - I should have taken a picture.
Quote from: shavethewhales on August 09, 2022, 08:42:46 AM
https://manhattanconstructiongroup.com/manhattan-construction-company/resource/santa-fe-square-tulsa-oklahoma-webcam/
I didn't realize they had such great construction cams for this project. I think I checked these months ago and they weren't working too well, but now they give a great view of the cladding going up. Already nearly finished on the north and going strong on the south and east sides.
They have updated the signage at the corner of Elgin & 2nd with the latest renderings. The Apartments look really good now. They have added some more detail to the facades and put a large neon looking sign on top that will make this area pop. Can't find the updated renderings online yet though - I should have taken a picture.
The time-lapse option on both cams is fun. Too bad there isn't an interior camera.
Quote from: shavethewhales on August 09, 2022, 08:42:46 AM
https://manhattanconstructiongroup.com/manhattan-construction-company/resource/santa-fe-square-tulsa-oklahoma-webcam/
I didn't realize they had such great construction cams for this project. I think I checked these months ago and they weren't working too well, but now they give a great view of the cladding going up. Already nearly finished on the north and going strong on the south and east sides.
They have updated the signage at the corner of Elgin & 2nd with the latest renderings. The Apartments look really good now. They have added some more detail to the facades and put a large neon looking sign on top that will make this area pop. Can't find the updated renderings online yet though - I should have taken a picture.
Thanks for sharing! Very fun to watch. I noticed the signage as well.. really can't wait to see the residential get started. I think filling in that corner by the blue dome will have almost as much impact as the tower itself.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on August 02, 2022, 01:57:41 PM
I actually think the glass color looks pretty sharp. Excited to see this one finish up.
I agree! I was driving westbound on I-244 Saturday and must say that this is a nice shiny glass addition to our skyline.
In depth article on the construction going on at Santa Fe Square. Sounds like they're really pushing the schedule.
https://www.enr.com/articles/54573-inventive-strategies-keep-tulsa-project-on-pace
The parking lots are fenced off and Crossland Construction is mobilizing to build the multifamily portion of the project. Good to see another massive surface lot bite the dust. This will have a huge impact on the Blue Dome District and along Elgin.
Yeah I noticed a week or two ago they had signs in the elevator telling guests that the parking lot would close this week. I agree that this part of the project in particular will probably have the biggest impact to the blue dome district that we've seen yet. Filling a massive parking hole, adding new retail, and adding new bodies that will keep the area supported and even more vibrant. It'll finally feel like an actual district and not just a clump of a scattered bars with a barren wasteland in the middle.
Looks like they posted earlier today on LinkedIn they have formally closed on the construction loan and full construction starts next week.
Hopefully we'll get some news on The Annex project in the next few months and see ground breaking on it early next year (hopefully) - they would stagger the starts between these two that by the time Santa Fe is close to finishing lease up the Annex would be coming online.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 08, 2022, 11:00:13 PM
Looks like they posted earlier today on LinkedIn they have formally closed on the construction loan and full construction starts next week.
Hopefully we'll get some news on The Annex project in the next few months and see ground breaking on it early next year (hopefully) - they would stagger the starts between these two that by the time Santa Fe is close to finishing lease up the Annex would be coming online.
I've heard a spring start for the Annex (260 units) and an early summer start for Western Supply (320 units), but those won't be turning over until 2025. Santa Fe will be turning over units in spring 2024. The only 2023 turnover I'm tracking will be ARCO with 80 units, followed by Sinclair with 70 units in early 2024.
Quote from: SXSW on September 09, 2022, 09:44:05 AM
I've heard a spring start for the Annex (260 units) and an early summer start for Western Supply (320 units), but those won't be turning over until 2025. Santa Fe will be turning over units in spring 2024. The only 2023 turnover I'm tracking will be ARCO with 80 units, followed by Sinclair with 70 units in early 2024.
I think Santa Fe Square is going to be 190 units right? Or am I thinking wrong on that. I think the View was leasing between 20-30 units a month so Santa Fe will take somewhere around 8-10 months to stabilize. So, with the Annex starting a bit later into next year there shouldn't be a huge gap in when new units are on the market.
The supply downtown has been fairly erratic which can be good/bad - it's helped push rents up a lot in the last few years. The View stabilized somewhere around $2.20 per sq. ft. average for the entire property which is pushing rents near feasibility for non-wood construction and the Annex should really help there too for showing feasibility for high-rise apartments.
Do you know if much of Western Supply is going to be dedicated to workforce/affordable housing? Originally I think they had planned for somewhere around a quarter to half the unit to qualify as workforce housing in the 80-120% of area median income limits. Last I had heard of that was several years ago and I know they've changed around the design since then.
Construction in the urban core is really going to need a significant push if rents are going to stay somewhat reasonable now that Tulsa Remote is going to about 1,000 people per year and 70-80% of them are living downtown or within 2-miles of downtown. We really probably need at least 500 market rate units a year downtown, probably more. Affordable housing there's still a huge gap in demand, we could use at least 2,000-3,000 units downtown and near downtown. Most of the THA properties near the urban core have 300 people + wait-lists.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 09, 2022, 11:15:13 AM
I think Santa Fe Square is going to be 190 units right? Or am I thinking wrong on that. I think the View was leasing between 20-30 units a month so Santa Fe will take somewhere around 8-10 months to stabilize. So, with the Annex starting a bit later into next year there shouldn't be a huge gap in when new units are on the market.
The supply downtown has been fairly erratic which can be good/bad - it's helped push rents up a lot in the last few years. The View stabilized somewhere around $2.20 per sq. ft. average for the entire property which is pushing rents near feasibility for non-wood construction and the Annex should really help there too for showing feasibility for high-rise apartments.
Do you know if much of Western Supply is going to be dedicated to workforce/affordable housing? Originally I think they had planned for somewhere around a quarter to half the unit to qualify as workforce housing in the 80-120% of area median income limits. Last I had heard of that was several years ago and I know they've changed around the design since then.
Construction in the urban core is really going to need a significant push if rents are going to stay somewhat reasonable now that Tulsa Remote is going to about 1,000 people per year and 70-80% of them are living downtown or within 2-miles of downtown. We really probably need at least 500 market rate units a year downtown, probably more. Affordable housing there's still a huge gap in demand, we could use at least 2,000-3,000 units downtown and near downtown. Most of the THA properties near the urban core have 300 people + wait-lists.
Santa Fe is 184 units, all market-rate no workforce housing. The View has 202 units with 40 units dedicated to workforce housing; they are currently 91% leased after fully opening in May.
Western Supply is GKFF so it will be mostly dedicated to their affiliated programs like Tulsa Remote, Atento, TFA, etc. Not exclusively but a significant portion.
You also have the Pivot Project/CMSWillowbrook project at Cameron & Boulder that plans to add 88 market-rate apartments that would also likely be a 2023 start and late 2024/early 2025 turnover. That's right around 1,000 new units delivering by 2025 if all of these current projects get built.
Asphalt is starting to be removed... bye bye surface lot! :D
Any pictures of the progress for this? I feel left out down here in Dallas lol
This one has a webcam: https://manhattanconstructiongroup.com/manhattan-construction-company/resource/santa-fe-square-tulsa-oklahoma-webcam/
One of these days I need to get out and walk around downtown again and get some updated photos of all these projects we've been following. Unfortunately a lot of them are very slow to finish off. The Greenwood building for example still has some scaffolding up and the bottom floors are empty even though the building opened back in late spring. The former WPX HQ still has some fencing up around it, but at least the main sidewalk is almost done. Davenport STILL hasn't finished the sidewalk in front as of a week or two ago, but they had at least poured some of it finally. On and on it goes...
Some pictures
(https://i.ibb.co/Ny5C68v/IMG-4256.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VtV3FBc/IMG-4252.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/NprmCzX/IMG-4254.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cw2tPLP/IMG-4253.jpg)
Taken today:
(https://i.imgur.com/Aty9J1G.jpg)
Anyone else watching the webcam and notice two large holes on the East and West sides of the building today? Sometimes windows break during construction but seeing two giant holes appear at once is odd...
Quote from: shavethewhales on October 27, 2022, 03:17:52 PM
Anyone else watching the webcam and notice two large holes on the East and West sides of the building today? Sometimes windows break during construction but seeing two giant holes appear at once is odd...
The building was vandalized last night. Someone broke windows and did some more damage inside. Not sure on the extent yet.
I'm surprised they didn't have security there at night.
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/santa-fe-square-office-complex-filling-up-quickly/article_277208d4-5469-11ed-8a04-c333216916e6.html
According to the article, all but one of the offices floors has been leased, occupancy expected in Februrary. Apartments finished sometime in 2024.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on November 01, 2022, 09:33:58 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/santa-fe-square-office-complex-filling-up-quickly/article_277208d4-5469-11ed-8a04-c333216916e6.html
According to the article, all but one of the offices floors has been leased, occupancy expected in Februrary. Apartments finished sometime in 2024.
I'm surprised they're just now mentioning it, but it's been nearly fully leased since a few months after they broke ground. Laredo Petroleum is the other occupant that leased the rest of the building. There's only the bottom floor left that's right above the parking structure.
Just like every market there's a flight to quality in office. Good thing for Tulsa is we have a really active conversion market of historical or just older office building being converted to hotel/apartments. This will just create more opportunities in that area. It's not neccessary a bad thing to see tenants shift around a bit as eventually some of the smaller B/C office buildings like Beacon and some of those will probably be converted to other uses besides office.
Some surprising and not so surprising news is ARG is officially no longer expanding or looking for new sites. Santa Fe Square is going to be their last deal for a long time. They let go of some staff as well, all bizarre. They would have canceled Santa Fe Square if they hadn't been on the hook for the TIF dollars.
It's a move that makes zero sense to me given how fast Tulsa is growing population wise right now and the housing market is still very strong here with price appreciation unlike some markets like Austin that have seen a bit of a correction. There's only a small handful of housing markets that aren't in the negative right now in pricing change and Tulsa is one of them. There's just a huge lack of housing still.
ARG does this every time there's a small blip in the market - we really need some better developers in town that will do big ground up apartment projects.
^stinks about ARG... hopefully another group fills the void.
They started earth works on the north side of the site. I've never gotten a good sense from renderings what the 1st street side is going to look like.
(https://i.imgur.com/Ekzer0K.jpg)
Quote from: LandArchPoke on November 01, 2022, 10:24:32 AM
ARG does this every time there's a small blip in the market - we really need some better developers in town that will do big ground up apartment projects.
Another reason I'm rooting for Flaherty & Collins to be successful with the Annex and potentially build a development pipeline in Tulsa. That and for other groups like Rose Rock (active in historic conversions downtown but more active in new construction in OKC) and Tulsa Property Group (actively building urban and suburban product) to step up. Ross Group has the Brookside project and has purchased property at 6th & Elgin for future mixed-use projects. Charney Properties also has been active in the Kendall-Whittier neighborhood and has shown interest in downtown multifamily. Milhaus has been working in OKC and I know has recently been looking at deals in Tulsa.
Another slightly different angle angle I took yesterday. I'm hoping that there's some lighting elements on the exterior.
(https://i.imgur.com/Dx9a46Q.jpg)
I was excited to notice today that the west end has gone vertical. Lots of plumbing going on around the east end, so that isn't far behind. Looking forward to this getting some mass and filling up the void.
I'm really curious to know what the first street side (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.157874,-95.9849183,3a,89.9y,222.72h,102.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2xP00VM-wbwkMhWzYst41A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of this development is going to look like.
Quote from: Urban Enthusiast on December 16, 2022, 11:15:12 AM
I'm really curious to know what the first street side (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.157874,-95.9849183,3a,89.9y,222.72h,102.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2xP00VM-wbwkMhWzYst41A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of this development is going to look like.
Big change since the 2014 Street View.
That street view from 2011 is shocking. I didn't live in Tulsa at that time, but I can't believe how empty it was!
Quote from: Urban Enthusiast on December 16, 2022, 11:15:12 AM
I'm really curious to know what the first street side (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.157874,-95.9849183,3a,89.9y,222.72h,102.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2xP00VM-wbwkMhWzYst41A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of this development is going to look like.
It should be pretty similar to this. Units are at street level. I wish it was retail space but I understand they wanted to concentrate that around the new plaza on the 2nd St side
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Fyp2KxS-Rsz4SvaCvtlrDEYnAod6CPcrBZjemBP50um3eiwddYHt78sJEILgZv9pRd7lzPw7iQyZB2Y4LuTxLOdzocf4IvGZWuZoz3F8_3PgdQqFdXEo49Ls2VcGv9e-UG1UOi0lLielepudc1WiJBU1wHJwraBp3PfB-8fAP7sf-1ZVnRgoeWAdor-gjgYz0i1KIQVyrTPpadCyCwuFIWTQfsNk1qrVdVlKVRTKkZs1ypbrPLn6HP9_EBuFK_r0ZD_LJuDGEScxe7IxbQAHfdYqCCKjevDy_mH2PCL9MNmkFxR7fhRz1lGM1mONn0t383gKXKZJN3ljB2JWCpFH4r2cz0iz-E60jRJ4m1dVSntRUsLgcgyCg3axZehVjlboIi4C3zXssUGCOybBYOBmDW-QrbUfwWdDv39p0WVOrDVogdXh-hmFntvQafocS26nMDnZTw980eBfXurFonp10rF3gSSdkaEpIizBn6mPYh3vkPUKcMdyTOl71L-pwlkrKa530tzsJ3LHvU6tIASJ4K8P-LWCHZ_X2C6SMN64IeVYytrkgUcTmuLneRWBo-9d_ZQkhIbHDZqECHlJ9bCLOBLS62k6TjNpqKsb10j3qAV3OBSbmLkr6Dqnflq1r-6DDPMM3CN64QFgPLVbzH3MSlRTcJEXqEO2lX2c3pFCEPNva670nlQXEal_cD2j13X5PT3xfHe2ZLsuyl-nG6aO_mKUd1YUTlHn7qvTD8pmV5RoBMKK4GbuNIlsoI5inOSxv-yNWfFB2ooPLayDq1uNHm0ltTrHRL66BC812o_I_8off6fXk-QWmhOaM85zF7dLVf8a6FZ_nyyBJpnExrs3MsF9TBA7ji3MNa6yMtIyFOzyD_1MjyfNw6dQQ05qFSDGt2wrQ5FDMu38_RZJM8eY7JvaME8hwBs393aDu_6KE0pL=w1357-h969-no?authuser=0)
CBRE is moving its office from Boulder Towers at 15th & Boulder to the 7th floor of Santa Fe Plaza. This is one of the last remaining spaces available in the Santa Fe office tower.
With H&P leaving for WPX and now CBRE that will leave Boulder Towers less than 50% occupied, and a prime target for conversion to residential.
Quote from: SXSW on January 04, 2023, 01:07:25 PM
CBRE is moving its office from Boulder Towers at 15th & Boulder to the 7th floor of Santa Fe Plaza. This is one of the last remaining spaces available in the Santa Fe office tower.
With H&P leaving for WPX and now CBRE that will leave Boulder Towers less than 50% occupied, and a prime target for conversion to residential.
Doesn't surprise me - they were looking at going into the office development in the Pearl that's been put on hold I think.
Interesting fact about Boulder Towers is it is owned by a LP of current and former CBRE brokers. I bet they'll either sell it or hopefully are considering doing something to reposition the building. With that many partners (unless it's been changed in the past several years) it might be difficult to get everyone on board with what to do so wouldn't be surprised if they just sell it. Some of the owners of Boulder Towers are the equity partners in Santa Fe Square too.
Walking by at night you can see how close they are to finishing this project. Several office floors look to be pretty well finished out, not to mention the lobby area. Still lots of clean up work left to do and a little bit left on the cladding, but if you told me this would be ready for move-in by the first of the month I'd believe you. Meanwhile, the apartments are trucking along.
Getting this garage open will be a boon for the area. I know urbanists typically aren't fond of massive parking garages, but this one is necessary.
The office tower looks like it's been basically finished and furnished for the past week or so. Wonder when move-in date is. There's still a few punch list items on the exterior, but they could get them knocked out any time.
What seems really odd to me is that construction on the apartments seems to have virtually halted over the past month. I know the weather has been up and down, but they should have set up the second floor by now. Not sure what is going on.
Sadly there's no more webcam for this project apparently, but the tower is done and occupied from the looks of it (I haven't seen it during the day, but it looks furnished now).
With that done, they have been working steadily on the apartments again the past few weeks making more obvious progress. Looks like they will be pouring the second floor soon? Very excited to see that finally take shape and fill up the void. I'll be even more excited to finally be able to walk past there again. Those construction walls are always annoying.
The west building podium deck looks to be at least partially poured. With the wood-framing being panelized on a lot at 6th & Frankfort the structure should go up quickly. They still have a ways to go on the east building closer to the garage.
The law firm moved in about a month ago. I really hate buildings on top of parking garages, but it's much better than Cimarex (or whoever is there now).
Crossland posted some new photos and info on LinkedIn recently: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/crossland-construction_this-is-our-santa-fe-crossing-project-located-activity-7050122590681501696-3bcl?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/crossland-construction_this-is-our-santa-fe-crossing-project-located-activity-7050122590681501696-3bcl?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
Sounds like the concrete podium is just about done, and vertical construction of the rest of it will fly up due to prebuilt panelized wood walls. I was up there a few days ago and the middle building looks like it is already flying up since it doesn't have a podium, on the backside (along 1st) at least. Seems like this block has been under construction for ages, so I'm glad to see it moving along. The process of getting the podium built seems to have taken almost 4 months since they were putting the columns up back in December...
They're already on the second level of the 1st street units, and almost starting the second story on the 2nd street ones. Making lots of quick progress due to using wood.
Been a long time since I posted any progress photos of major projects. I was pretty excited to see that the West building of Santa Fe is getting bricked at last.
(https://imgur.com/Bsdzcxm.jpg)
It definitely makes a big impact on making that area feel more dense. Probably the biggest overall transformation downtown along with the Guthrie Green area. I'll be interested to hear more about the ground floor tenants as that is what will drive pedestrian traffic and truly make it a destination.