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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: johrasephoenix on August 24, 2015, 02:43:29 pm



Title: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on August 24, 2015, 02:43:29 pm
I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's.  Does anyone have any intel on this project?  Is it for real?  It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done.  Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.  

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/

Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on August 24, 2015, 03:08:03 pm
I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's.  Does anyone have any intel on this project?  Is it for real?  It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done.  Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.  

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/

Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.

Santa Fe Square has been mentioned on here several times, but that PDF has far more info that I have seen before, and several new images.

The Ross Group has now gone in with Sager on the First Street Lofts and they also actually get things done.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 24, 2015, 03:12:35 pm
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 24, 2015, 03:14:37 pm
Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on August 24, 2015, 03:18:09 pm
Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:

Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS2.jpg)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on August 24, 2015, 03:23:47 pm
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.

No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on August 24, 2015, 03:24:02 pm
OMG! awnings!  I love it!  ;D


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on August 24, 2015, 03:28:45 pm
Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.

Looks like they are perhaps turning that into the lobby/entrance/restaurant etc. area for the hotel part behind?  Would add some class and history to whatever hotel decided to do that.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: saintnicster on August 24, 2015, 03:56:45 pm
OMG! awnings!  I love it!  ;D

Don't worry, they'll run out of money and not include them :( (like the trees that were in the rendering for GreenArch)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 24, 2015, 04:45:37 pm
Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.

I agree. I wish the apartments would face Greenwood too and have the parking in the middle of the complex. It's cheaper to build it this way however as the parking construction would be more expensive being wrapped with added fire code restrictions, etc.

Looks like they at least intend to make the parking look nice and will have retail on the street level up until Greenwood which will keep it from feeling like a parking garage when you walk past at street level.

Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:

Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces


I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.

They could shave the parking in half and be perfectly fine.

Retail is about 80,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio is 240 spaces needed (lets assume you want to keep this allotment the entire day)
Office is 170,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio would be 510 parking spaces needed during business hours weekdays.
Multifamily is 291 apartment = 1.5 ratio (this is what the Cosmopolitan is being constructed at on Riverside/Denver) is 436 spaces needed during evenings/post work hours.
Hotel = 105 rooms, 1 per room is 105 spaces (lets assume you want to keep this allotment for the entire day too)

Max parking needed at one time during the day is office with 510 spaces. Adding the retail is now 750 total spaces. Add the hotel and the total is now 855 spaces.

They are overbuilding parking by about 600 spaces. Which at $25k a space is $15 million. I wouldn't be surprised if this parking garage is over 40% empty the vast majority of the time.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on August 24, 2015, 04:53:08 pm
Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.

I saw that and agree Greenwood should have retail fronting it over 1st and 2nd.  Overall a great project though and hope low oil prices don't derail it.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 24, 2015, 05:25:18 pm
The more structured parking the merrier! It drives down the demand for surface parking. Perhaps he is planning for long term development in the area. In that he owns business dependent on street parking, it might be in Nelson's interest to make sure there is ample parking moving forward.

Every time I see this development, I get more excited.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DowntownDan on August 24, 2015, 07:27:36 pm
The parking is surely for more than the development but for the entire district and for ball games, etc.  It will pay for itself I assume.  This would be a game changer if it gets done and if its consistent with the renderings and doesn't end up as an ugly structure nothing like the renderings like the Cimarex tower.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 24, 2015, 09:15:21 pm
I guess I just don't see the parking problem that everyone else does downtown... maybe I'm crazy.

I do get it's probably the sense that if you build more parking it will spur added development around the district, but and large infill project is going to have parking on site. It will not use this garage and build 200 apartments 3 blocks away. Just not going to happen.

The PAC site will also have a 600 spot parking garage.

You have the City of Tulsa parking garage - which I don't get why it hasn't been renovated to allow for public parking on weekends and nights.

You have the 2 separate parking garages at 4th and Cincinnati that could be operated 24/7 for much cheaper than over building this garage.

These are all in just of close proximity to "encourage" infill development as well. Personally, I'd rather see the parking garage cut in half and add another 50-60 apartments. That would provide way more return than a parking structure ever could. Parking is a revenue loser for any developer, especially at those ratios.

Also, this won't drive down demand for surface lots unless the parking in the garage is cheaper than the surface lots or streets. I've never had a problem finding street parking on the weekends, and why would I pay $5 to park in this garage when I can park for free on the street? Or why would I pay that much when I could pay a few dollars for one of the surface parking lots?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on August 25, 2015, 03:14:38 am
It does seem quite reasonable to have less parking with this development.  Don't forget we are also amping up the downtown trolley which will allow for more parking options in other parts of downtown.  And very importantly, the main "driver" for retail and desirability in general for downtown is... people walking around.  Pedestrian lively streets should be the biggest attraction we are shooting for.

I'll tell the story again of how when Walt Disney was showing a reporter around the underway Disney Land and Walt Said "And just wait till the biggest attraction gets here."  The reporter asked "Whats that going to be?"  Walt replied "The people!"     Walt knew what he was talking about, and it's still true today.   Let's not become a smaller lamer version of Dallas with it's parking at every development and nobody out walking. 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: hello on August 25, 2015, 06:56:25 am
That rooftoop!  :o This is all very exciting.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 25, 2015, 07:09:23 am
I wish TulsaNow got 25 cents for every parking discussions - we could form a lobbying arm and make something happen!

I do not think the structured parking will provide parking for other residences. It will basically be parking for the residences attached and businesses therein (hopefully with a validation system). BUT - extra parking would be helpful for big event days. Also, the extra parking could serve as parking for extra vehicles for nearby residences (in-laws in town, that car you only drive on the weekends). Who knows...

But if the developer wants to build more *structured* parking, why try to discourage it? The more public parking garages around, the more likely people are to use them and get comfortable with it.

And yes, it will help drive down demand for surface lots. Like you said, the cheaper and most convenient option will win. How much are Tulsans willing to pay to be a couple of blocks closer? Mine eyes tell me it is $5-20 every time there is an event. A structured garage equals more competition, so the overall price of parking is flat or going down (even as the visitor numbers are going up).  If a surface lot can generate $X it makes sense to leave it a surface lot, if it can only generate $Y, I may as well sell it and get my money out now.

Also - not every development can fund structured parking. Its expensive. As the BlueDome and east end continue to prosper, parking and walking a couple of blocks in either direction would be very convenient.  The Brady is to the point that parking in the William's garage and walking over the tracks is usually the fastest/least headache inducing option ($2 people!). Nearly all of the space owned by the Equality Center is utilized. ~30 new units going up just across the street. Hodges Bend is almost always bumpin'. We're running out of neat old buildings in that area to convert - with parking available, the confidence to build smaller individual developments should be there (I know,  know, there's plenty of parking if you just look for it. But people are lazy.)

Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: dsjeffries on August 25, 2015, 07:28:07 am
So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.

I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.

Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.

That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).

To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.

600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on August 25, 2015, 08:01:10 am
Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.

Yes Brickhugger is developing that and it's called the Hartford Building. Not to be confused with the former Hartford Commons—now the Edge—across 2nd Street to the South.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1135757789771796&id=181792495168335



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 25, 2015, 08:03:44 am
So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.

Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.

That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).

To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.

600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!

I agree, this parking garage is a good thing. I could see it being a central parking hub for the surrounding areas. I would certainly park there for $2-5. This kind of development must accommodate the typical suburban family who want easy parking every time. Street parking will NOT be an option for most everyone after all of the current planned projects are complete. It could be tougher than finding street parking at Brady on a Friday on a regular basis. Having a huge parking garage in the middle of all of this could be a big plus. The majority of the 2 blocks is ground-floor retail to make up for that.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 25, 2015, 08:08:12 am
No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.

I am glad the plans look like they're preserving the Santa Fe building and adding on to make the hotel. I was concerned such a large new development would start over with a clean slate.

This looks like it could be a $60,000,000+ development (just doing $100/ft2), completely ignoring parking which might be another 36,250,000 (at $25k/space)! So this is a substantial high-dollar development which could be the new anchor of downtown and create the retail/restaurant centerpiece that has been talked about on this board for a long time. $100 million is a huge chunk of the current list of developments! It would be a great addition. Hopefully they can get some popular retailers to move from south Tulsa.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: rdj on August 25, 2015, 08:27:42 am
My understanding was Brickhugger was going to do a grocery story and residential development on the Hartford property with minimal parking and this development would provide parking for both.  Maybe I misunderstood or mis-remembered since it's been at least 3-4 months since that conversation.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on August 25, 2015, 08:28:59 am
It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown.  While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing.  As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern).  Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G’s.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 25, 2015, 09:36:12 am
It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown.  While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing.  As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern).  Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G’s.

Good points!

Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DowntownDan on August 25, 2015, 09:47:38 am
More structured parking means less surface parking so I'm all for it.  We also want suburbanites to come back to the core for dinner and entertainment and they love their cars.  Lets do all we can to promote pedestrianism, trolleys, light rail, etc., but understand that there are a large group that will never abandon their cars and we want their money downtown too.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 25, 2015, 01:37:14 pm
Well now it is really official! Tulsa World article:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/santa-fe-square-to-bring-retail-office-apartments-and-a/article_35ca9da3-d7a9-562e-8a69-4ca43cb562df.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/santa-fe-square-to-bring-retail-office-apartments-and-a/article_35ca9da3-d7a9-562e-8a69-4ca43cb562df.html)

Quote
Nelson Stowe developers is relatively new, but the firm has developed, co-developed or planned four residential and retail projects in the downtown area.
It turns out they were getting warmed up for their biggest project.
Santa Fe Square, planned on two full city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, will feature a 600,000 square feet of retail, office space, 291 apartments and a 105-room hotel.
Restauranteur Elliot Nelson, half of Nelson Stowe along with Casey Stowe, said they've partnered with American Residential Group and undisclosed office and hotel developers for the ambitious project, which continues their push to improve downtown Tulsa.
“We’re always looking for ways to keep building downtown and make it better, and there’s always a need for more retail and living spaces,” he said.
Nelson said they'll submit permitting applications to the city soon, in anticipation for an opening by the third or fourth quarter of 2017. They are seeking retail tenants with the help of Walman Commercial Real Estate Services.
The site is currently a large parking lot, save for the shuttered Santa Fe rail depot building on the northwest corner that serves as the site's namesake, Nelson said.
That building will be redeveloped and expanded into a 105-room hotel with an attached bar and restaurant and courtyard in the middle, Nelson said.
The 80,000 square feet of ground-floor retail will be spread over multiple buildings throughout most of the rest of the development, with suites ranging from 1,000 to 40,000 square feet, Nelson said.
The buildings in the development will include a brick-paved pedestrian plaza with a retail arcade, which will run under archways with building space suspended above them.
Nelson said they'd like to attract some restaurants with patio space on the plaza, but their biggest hope is for more shops in the area.
“We’ve got a good intensity of bars and restaurants in the neighborhood already, so we’re looking to diversify," he said.
Additionally, 170,000 square feet of office space for executive or medical use will be on upper floors, Nelson said. He noted new construction of downtown office space has slowed in the last 15 years, other than One Place by the BOK Center.
The 291 apartments, which will also overlook the ground-floor retail, will include a rooftop pool.
Santa Fe will be constructed on what's currently 400 parking spaces and feature a parking garage with 1,450 parking spaces available, Nelson said.
“We want the site to be as dense as possible while still providing parking,” he said.
This is the fifth project associated with Nelson Stowe. The group finished renovations on the Coliseum Apartments, 635 S. Elgin Ave., last month. The formerly dilapidated building now features 36 studio apartments.
Nelson Stowe has also partnered with American Residential Group on The Edge, a $26 million, 162-unit development at 215 S. Greenwood Ave. that’s under construction now.
The group is also developing The Boxyard, a retail-focused center at the southeast corner of Third Street and Frankfort Avenue that will be built out of over 30 large metal shipping containers. Dwelling Spaces, Joebot’s Coffee Bar and Masa restaurant will be the anchor tenants.
Nelson Stowe planned the redevelopment of the Gates Hardware building at 216 N. Elgin Ave. across from ONEOK Field until it was purchased by KSQ Architects, which is now heading the $5.2 million redevelopment.
When that development is finished in September, KSQ will move into the upper floor, while Nelson and Marshall Brewing Co. will open up a brew pub on the ground floor.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on August 25, 2015, 01:49:01 pm
Good points!

Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).

The small lot west of McNellies is worse IMO, because it's also on Elgin next to the main through route from Blue Dome to the ballpark and Brady District.  Also the vacant (but awesome) brick building across the street that is begging to be redeveloped.  By activating 1st in that area it makes that redevelopment easier if the property owners are willing (which could be the case).

The plan shows a 28,000 SF retail space on 1st, I wonder what they're targeting there?  That's twice as big as a Trader Joe's.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on August 25, 2015, 03:37:32 pm
Looking at the rendering again, is the entire eastern half the parking garage with just shallow retail space at the base?  I wonder why you wouldn't just wrap the apartments around the parking garage.   


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2015, 09:19:20 am
You make a good point.  I am hopeful this development group is a tad bit more principled/stubborn about their vision/project.  That said, I have to wonder if this project will be completed in phases over a number of years.

I think they'll have to do it in phases. Hotel seems like quickest build, then apartments/office space. Then the bigger  buildings and parking garage. Will they make some of it part of the Vision package? Will they use TIF?

They say late 2017, but considering the magnitude of the project and funds required (at LEAST $100 million), I'd wager the place won't be ready until 2018 at the earliest.

They partnered with American Residential for at least one project and are partnered again on this. American Residential is really on the ball with downtown stuff so far so lets hope they can get the funding regardless of TIF/Vision proposals. Obviously Nelson has done really well too so we should trust he will keep the project true to plan but when it comes down to saving millions, it will be hard to stick to the elaborate plan.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on August 26, 2015, 10:14:24 am
Keep in mind, Elliot & Casey are current stakeholders downtown and thus far, Elliott has supported and produced quality development which compliments downtown.  I’d say he’s probably one of the more principled developers in downtown.  My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years.  That’s the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 26, 2015, 11:22:01 am
Keep in mind, Elliot & Casey are current stakeholders downtown and thus far, Elliott has supported and produced quality development which compliments downtown.  I’d say he’s probably one of the more principled developers in downtown.  My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years.  That’s the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.

Unless there has been a lot of work done behind the scenes. All parties involved are proven commodities. Downtown residential has been selling gang busters. A hotel brand partnering/contracting would secure that construction cost with no problem. A couple anchor tenants signing a lease before building could secure the office/retail. Then leverage the rest, I guess.

It just seems doubtful that such a well respected developer would announce such an ambitious timeline unless there was reason to believe he could meet it.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 26, 2015, 11:47:09 am
Money isn't what will keep this project from being built. The partnerships with the $$ to make it happen are done. It's now up to wether this pre-leases to the level a bank is comfortable with (in today's market can be anywhere from 30% - 80%, depends on the bank and area). If it pre-leases it will be built regardless of what oil prices are doing.

I would like to add I'm very excited about this project even though I did grip about the parking. I just think it could be successful and still act as a catalyst in terms of other development with less parking (closer to 900 spaces vs 1,400).

Also another point there is a huge difference between this project and One Tower. One Tower was a build to suit for a tenant who was in the drivers seat of what they wanted to pay. They wanted it built as cheaply as possible to keep their rental rate down. Which is how we got the stripped down hospital looking version that is there today. Santa Fe Square is a spec development, and tenants will have to pay what they are asking - big big difference. The likelihood of this being built as cheaply as possible like One Tower is 0%.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on August 26, 2015, 12:52:43 pm
I am thinking of getting with the people in my part of Downtown in the Deco District to see what their plans are for the area.  If they are going to go after retail and restaurant for the ground floors of the building projects that are underway there, I will stay.  But if they start putting in office stuff on the ground floor, I will really have to consider leaving.  I am working hard to be in a place end of next year so that I can take out a loan and either move to a bigger space and do it right, or branch off a concept or two that is in my store now and do a second location in the same area. 

It seems like many of the places in my area are just happy to get anything, office or whatever, and don't seem to be publicly trying to "create" something, retail wise, with any intention.   

But again, if the property owners don't push retail/restaurant and instead go for office, (5 or 6 hundred new office workers/residents in my area won't mean a lot for my bottom line, helps surely, but can't get me to being a thriving, growing business)  I don't think I will have a choice but to leave and try for perhaps this development in the Blue Dome.  Us little guys kind of have to go where the big guys say we can.

It would be very difficult for me if 3 years from now at Christmas (where we make about 40% of our yearly sales) if all the downtown shopping action and promotion is going on in the Blue Dome and I am sitting in a quiet corner in the Deco District full of offices as the lone major retailer.




Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DowntownDan on August 26, 2015, 02:43:08 pm
I've been complaining about One Place from the beginning.  I despite that hideous structure.  How can anyone see six floors of parking garage and think it's attractive?  Even a little bit?  I could even get over the boring look of the actual tower, but to put it on top of a very visible massive parking garage is atrocious.  I too have become skeptical of pretty drawings after that ridiculous mess.  I think I brought up your exact point in the PAC lot conversation.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on August 26, 2015, 04:15:15 pm
So was I the only one on here that saw that drawing and knew that wasn't going to happen?  Especially that one with the trees on it. No way. It was jut a placeholder thing and I thought it was obvious that would not be what the development actually looked like.  Completely unrealistic.  The Santa Fe Square thing, thats doable. Its a normal, but very nice for Tulsa, sort of development.   But yes, what they have done at one place pretty much makes it a pedestrian dead zone and whatever goes across the street to the north of it will likely be as well.  What, would you want to say put a restaurant with an outdoor cafe there so that your customers can all sit and look at THAT!  Aaah, Isn't this great sweetie, just like being in Paris.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Red Arrow on August 26, 2015, 04:25:56 pm
What, would you want to say put a restaurant with an outdoor cafe there so that your customers can all sit and look at THAT!  Aaah, Isn't this great sweetie, just like being in Paris.

Paris, TX?  Paris, AR?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: BKDotCom on August 26, 2015, 07:00:13 pm
My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years.  That’s the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.

Elliot has a printing press right across the street from this development.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on August 26, 2015, 08:05:24 pm
Elliot has a printing press right across the street from this development.

Well played!


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DowntownDan on August 27, 2015, 08:37:37 am
Hampton Inn and flair rarely go together.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: rdj on August 27, 2015, 09:28:09 am
(http://i.imgur.com/5zBV6he.jpg)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: carltonplace on August 27, 2015, 01:36:53 pm
So someone is finally building Frankfort Square!

The concept rendering is beautiful, I like the scale/height as compared to the rest of the Blue Dome structures and despite the mayor of blue dome title hung on Sager, Elliot is the true pioneer here.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 27, 2015, 01:39:52 pm
I googled trying to find a neat, cool, interesting, or unique Hampton Inn.. all the results pretty much looked the same. Shades of beige.  Some minor variations if you search "downtown Hampton Inn..." they all look nice, just wouldn't describe it as having flair.

https://www.google.com/search?q=neat+hampton+inn&safe=active&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=619&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMI7_3Z14HKxwIVz46SCh1GNwO0&dpr=2.5#safe=active&tbm=isch&q=downtown+hampton+inn


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: BuiltRight on August 31, 2015, 12:18:40 pm
Does anyone know who the Architect on the project is?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: dsjeffries on October 15, 2015, 01:13:27 pm
Selser-Schaefer is the architecture firm working on Santa Fe Square.

Additional renderings:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/21578255843_1c78f345c8_c.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/753/22011213540_b4908e6218_c.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/712/22011497288_53a4eb87f8_z.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/617/22011217170_8c69557339_z.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/707/22011503048_4f8e70cae3_z.jpg)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5682/22012409449_d7655c6b24_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 15, 2015, 02:03:48 pm
If it approaches that rendering, very cool!


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: AdamsHall on October 15, 2015, 02:42:38 pm
If it approaches that rendering, very cool!

Agree.  I like it.  I like it a lot.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: carltonplace on October 19, 2015, 08:06:48 am
This is beautiful. Seems incongruous to Arnie's (which I love).

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/21578255843_1c78f345c8_c.jpg)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on March 03, 2016, 12:42:40 pm
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.

Quote
Quick Facts:

Santa Fe Square is a $160 million downtown development for Tulsa
Needs city support to move forward
Plan would bring office space, shopping, up to 300 apartments, and a boutique hotel
It would fill the parking lot between 1st and 2nd street, and Greenwood and Elgin in downtown Tulsa
 

Developers of the Santa Fe Square proposed for downtown Tulsa say they need city support to move forward.

The $160 million plan includes office space, shopping, apartments and a boutique hotel. It'd be built in the parking lot between 1st and 2nd street and Greenwood and Elgin in downtown Tulsa.

A city council review committee approved creating a tax increment district, meaning the city would pay the developer up to $36 million in property taxes earned there over the next 25 years. The plan would not create any debt for the city.

City council has to approve the district, and will hold two public hearings before that, the first on March 31st.

The developer, Nelson and Stowe Development, said it can't move forward without the city's help.

Councilors support the project, saying the space would be just as attractive as Guthrie Green in the Brady District.

The developer hopes to have the office space completed sometime in 2017.

http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on March 03, 2016, 01:17:26 pm
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.

http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254

Will all this come with a $36 million guarantee that we won't experience the disappointment we seem to feel every time we get excited about a development?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on March 03, 2016, 02:21:10 pm
Santa Fe Square is now before the city asking for a 25 year, $36 million TIFF on property taxes for the $160 million project.

http://www.fox23.com/news/160-million-development-in-downtown-tulsa-needs-support/141741254

That seems like a really big ask.  Is this purposefully intended to get rejected so the developer can blame the city and not his inability to attract financing and/or tenants as the reason for shelving the project?

In truth, it is hard for me to get excited about any of these announced projects.  Unless and until the Tulsa/Oklahoma economy makes a major rebound, I just don't see anything major actually happening that has not already broken ground or is funded by GKFF.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on March 03, 2016, 03:38:08 pm
So basically Casey and Elliot came up $36M short from their investors.

Tax increment finance districts are generally supposed to only be able to pay for public infrastructure improvements.  A good example of what is allowed is running a public road through a development, stormwater management, or sewer work.

They are not supposed to finance construction, leasehold improvements, nor incentives to lure tenants.  This was made really clear in working out the TIF for Horizon Group for their outlet mall project.

On the one hand, I give Elliot a lot of credit for the renaissance of downtown.  He was there early on, taking big risks and coming within an inch of tanking entirely.  I also like the idea of creating density.

HOWEVER- The main economic selling point of density and infill is it is a tremendous revenue boon with sales and property tax concentrated in a very small footprint as compared to sprawling suburban style development.   I don’t think there is $36M worth of public infrastructure to be gained there unless they are planning to provide free multi-level parking.  You could make a stretch and say that was public infrastructure.  If structured parking there meant we could lose another block or so of surface parking, that could be worth the investment.

I’d be curious to see the ask first hand.

/edited to add: Basically the developers are asking for $1.44 million a year tax abatement if i understand correctly.  Considering the property currently pays $19,994 a year in property taxes there’s little doubt the improvements will increase assessed property taxes.  The only other property I could think of downtown which would be similar in value or space was the Williams Center.  Basically total tax revenue on it is $1.32M from Boulder to Cincinnati.  Total assessed value of those parcels is $89.2M.  So, I guess it would be reasonable to expect maybe $2.5 to $2.6 million a year in property tax on Santa Fe Square.  Doesn’t look quite so bad put in that perspective.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 03, 2016, 03:59:07 pm
That seems like a really big ask.  Is this purposefully intended to get rejected so the developer can blame the city and not his inability to attract financing and/or tenants as the reason for shelving the project?

In truth, it is hard for me to get excited about any of these announced projects.  Unless and until the Tulsa/Oklahoma economy makes a major rebound, I just don't see anything major actually happening that has not already broken ground or is funded by GKFF.

Yeah, that is a big ask. With the oil downturn, they might see it as the only way to get it done soon. They have a lot going on and are probably already seeing demand drop for leases.

They are asking for a discount of about $1,440,000 per year for 25 years. That is as much tax that the BOK Tower, the Hyatt and the 320 S Boston building pay combined and those have over 2,060,000 square feet as opposed to the 600,000 square feet of Santa Fe Square. I see empty store fronts all over downtown at pretty low prices and office space is easy to come by very cheaply. I don't see how this make sense economically for Tulsa.

It is a really awesome development and I hope it gets done, but I would not want taxpayers to pay that much. If it is put on hold, they can focus on the Boxyard and see if they can get a neat shopping hub going on a small scale first and use that to lure bigger investors.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on March 03, 2016, 05:38:57 pm
I think its a great development but I wonder what the rational is for this one getting the Tiff and other new ones downtown not? 

If its done as planned, it appears to be a high quality one compared to many I see so that is an added plus.  And if they do have parking that can be used by everyone in the district that can also be a plus.  As for the infrastructure component of a tiff in new areas, that is one of the great things about infill is that it will not add more streets for the city to maintain and this type of mixed use density can help transit, biking, walking, etc work better.  And this development could be a game changer for downtown really setting the tone and upping the pedestrian fabric of downtown.

But, the building I am in is paying property taxes and my shop by default is paying for it, and indeed there are still empty store fronts all around.  So I hope this development won't have their retail spots be able to be cheaper because they are not paying the taxes.  That wouldn't really be fair to me and the vacant spots and buildings being redone around me.

Would really like to hear from some of the developers and other property owners to see what their take is.

 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 03, 2016, 06:52:25 pm
Yeah, that is a big ask. With the oil downturn, they might see it as the only way to get it done soon. They have a lot going on and are probably already seeing demand drop for leases.

They are asking for a discount of about $1,440,000 per year for 25 years. That is as much tax that the BOK Tower, the Hyatt and the 320 S Boston building pay combined and those have over 2,060,000 square feet as opposed to the 600,000 square feet of Santa Fe Square. I see empty store fronts all over downtown at pretty low prices and office space is easy to come by very cheaply. I don't see how this make sense economically for Tulsa.

It is a really awesome development and I hope it gets done, but I would not want taxpayers to pay that much. If it is put on hold, they can focus on the Boxyard and see if they can get a neat shopping hub going on a small scale first and use that to lure bigger investors.

This TIF request is paying for 100% of the value of the parking structure ~1,200 x $30,000 = ~$36 million. This was my only complaint about the development that they are WAY WAY over building the parking garage. I know everyone says this will help other lots be infilled - but all of those developments are still going to want their own parking. I will bet anyone that this parking garage will sit 40% empty almost everyday even when this development is fully leased and all the surrounding lots are developed.

Now for everyone who can't justify the demand for this project. I think you were the one who said before "but there are vacant signs EVERYWHERE downtown" that is just not true. Please tell me where all these vacant retail spaces are? And tell me who is actively marketing them? Are there vacant "storefronts" yes, like the Sinclair building - but no one can exactly open up a shop there can they? You have to have a willing owner wanting to lease the space. Class A office space is non existent downtown. There's one block in City Hall, and the floor plates there are an acre - that would be difficult to find tenants for in Dallas, let alone Tulsa. There is a decent amount of Class B space in First Place (Kanbar) but really that's the only large chunk of B space available downtown. The rest is in C buildings. That's not indicative of demand, it just means we have a lot of tired buildings that will be repurposed to apartments and hotels soon. There is a huge need for new Class A office space downtown, even with oil prices low.

This TIF has been making its way through the city for months now, they are on the last sign off part which I believe is getting the ok from the school district. Once they have that this project is probably 2-3 months max from breaking ground. There's been a lot of pre-leasing interest (believe they have multiple contracts on both retail and office portions), it has financing in place, a multifamily developer partner in place, a hotel developer partner in place, and is a few weeks from closing on the land. This project is 95% going to happen. It's no pipe dream, and they certainly aren't asking for a TIF to use as an excuse to shelve the project - it's been in the works since they announced the project publicly.

Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on March 03, 2016, 07:42:18 pm

Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.

Aside from Tulsa Hills being a complete traffic nightmare and typical of every last thing that is wrong with suburban sprawl and its lack of sustainability, what is bad about the TH TIF?
 
By most accounts, that TIF accomplished what the original intent of TIFs were: to anchor development, re-development, or help give an area an economic jump-start.  The area is not my idea of utopia, but it has accomplished those goals and my understanding is it is being repaid well ahead of schedule.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on March 03, 2016, 08:06:20 pm
This TIF request is paying for 100% of the value of the parking structure ~1,200 x $30,000 = ~$36 million. This was my only complaint about the development that they are WAY WAY over building the parking garage. I know everyone says this will help other lots be infilled - but all of those developments are still going to want their own parking. I will bet anyone that this parking garage will sit 40% empty almost everyday even when this development is fully leased and all the surrounding lots are developed.

Now for everyone who can't justify the demand for this project. I think you were the one who said before "but there are vacant signs EVERYWHERE downtown" that is just not true. Please tell me where all these vacant retail spaces are? And tell me who is actively marketing them? Are there vacant "storefronts" yes, like the Sinclair building - but no one can exactly open up a shop there can they? You have to have a willing owner wanting to lease the space. Class A office space is non existent downtown. There's one block in City Hall, and the floor plates there are an acre - that would be difficult to find tenants for in Dallas, let alone Tulsa. There is a decent amount of Class B space in First Place (Kanbar) but really that's the only large chunk of B space available downtown. The rest is in C buildings. That's not indicative of demand, it just means we have a lot of tired buildings that will be repurposed to apartments and hotels soon. There is a huge need for new Class A office space downtown, even with oil prices low.

This TIF has been making its way through the city for months now, they are on the last sign off part which I believe is getting the ok from the school district. Once they have that this project is probably 2-3 months max from breaking ground. There's been a lot of pre-leasing interest (believe they have multiple contracts on both retail and office portions), it has financing in place, a multifamily developer partner in place, a hotel developer partner in place, and is a few weeks from closing on the land. This project is 95% going to happen. It's no pipe dream, and they certainly aren't asking for a TIF to use as an excuse to shelve the project - it's been in the works since they announced the project publicly.

Parking downtown is expensive and a TIF to help them cover that isn't horrible. I can think of worse TIF's - Tulsa Hills anyone? Personally I wish they would shrink the parking garage by 30% and ask for less money, but I still support it even as is. This project has the potential to change the trajectory of development downtown, I can't think of a better reason to waive property taxes for a while.

Well, sounds like a good deal for downtown and again I think it is well designed.  As for vacant retail, right across from me they have space in the Philcade on the ground floor between Mods and the Deco District Shops where some IBM offices once were.  The Vandever building right next to Jimmy Johns has had signs up for lease for quite a while.  Had some downtown realtors try to get me into that space actually but I wanted the high ceilings in the space I have now. And I think there are several other spaces on 5th that have been for lease for years now. My old space is available lol.  Someone with a little money could go in there and do it nice inside it would still be a good spot. Heck, they would have an instant customer base for it seems like there are still a lot of people who come into my new store saying they stopped by the old one first not realizing we had moved lol.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 03, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
Aside from Tulsa Hills being a complete traffic nightmare and typical of every last thing that is wrong with suburban sprawl and its lack of sustainability, what is bad about the TH TIF?
 
By most accounts, that TIF accomplished what the original intent of TIFs were: to anchor development, re-development, or help give an area an economic jump-start.  The area is not my idea of utopia, but it has accomplished those goals and my understanding is it is being repaid well ahead of schedule.



My complaint with the Tulsa Hills TIF is because the main reason it was needed is because of the poor site selection of the developer. When you have to plow the top off a "mountain" and install infrastructure it's a lot of money. We were about to do the same thing for Simon by Turkey Mountain. What's more economically difficult to do a strip/power center or an urban mixed use development? If Tulsa Hills has been built more dense I would have less of an issue. Have apartments above the retail and made Olympia Avenue more of a "main street" type environment and the TIF would have made more sense to me. I think we wasted public investment on a sub par development that would have require less money if they had found somewhere else on the westside that didn't have an extreme elevation challenge. I will say it at least it making the projections to pay off the TIF, so could be much worse. Santa Fe Square will be an investment that is alive and well producing income for the city for well past 30 years. Tulsa Hills? It won't. In 30 years there will be a new power center in Glenpool with Target, Lowe's, Belk, and Sam's that will be the new shopping center for SW Tulsa and Tulsa Hills will be much like Southroads, Fontana, or Eton Square. It will have an extremely short shelf life of producing any significant amount of revenue for the city.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 03, 2016, 08:17:45 pm
Well, sounds like a good deal for downtown and again I think it is well designed.  As for vacant retail, right across from me they have space in the Philcade on the ground floor between Mods and the Deco District Shops where some IBM offices once were.  The Vandever building right next to Jimmy Johns has had signs up for lease for quite a while.  Had some downtown realtors try to get me into that space actually but I wanted the high ceilings in the space I have now. And I think there are several other spaces on 5th that have been for lease for years now. My old space is available lol.  Someone with a little money could go in there and do it nice inside it would still be a good spot. Heck, they would have an instant customer base for it seems like there are still a lot of people who come into my new store saying they stopped by the old one first not realizing we had moved lol.

Those are a few space (I've walked by all of them as I live downtown). In a grand scale, those chopped up pieces of retail don't equal large amounts of vacancy and there's only a very small amount of retail tenants that would even be interested (more local shop people like yourself). Santa Fe Square is a completely different market of urban retail for downtown that is not available now. More retail, the more people will be walking around. Density builds on density and will ultimately be a great things for the local shops. The biggest block of retail space available downtown is in the Cimarex building, I think there's still maybe 15,000 sq. ft. on the backside interior that probably will never be leased due to the bad design of the building (no courtyard, no visibility to the street, etc.) not because of the market. The rest of the spaces are just small one off spaces in a bunch of random different properties. We need some new, bigger developments with the ability to draw in retailers like Santa Fe Square or the PAC lot development can.  


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 03, 2016, 08:37:56 pm
Some things:

TIF money is not only meant for infrastructure improvements like new roads.... in fact I would hesitate to use it for that purpose in most instances.  If our goal is to encourage infill then development should require minimal new infrastructure investment. 

In my experience, TIF money is primarily an economic development tool in neighborhoods where the market isn't strong enough to spur development on its own.  Much of downtown Tulsa fits this criteria perfectly.  For instance, I used to live in Uptown, Chicago, an area struggling with poverty and retail vacancy.  The city used $68 million in TIF funds to develop 100+ affordable homes and an urban format Target over an abandoned railyard fronting a street of vacant storefronts (Wilson Yards TIF).  That investment has served as a catalyst for a struggling community.

When looking at this project there are two things you need to consider when deciding whether or not to proceed:

a) How much will property tax in the TIF district increase in the absence of this development?  This increase is the revenue the city will be forfeiting (and given the current tax rate on surface parking in Tulsa its not that much $$$).
b) Are this project's positive externalities greater than the tax revenue the city forgoes (ie, future increases in property tax absent the development).  This can be monetary (does this development encourage new businesses, residents, development elsewhere?).  It can also be qualitative - and I think this is the most important.  The Blue Dome and Brady Districts are the standard bearers for downtown's resurgence.  This project makes a statement that downtown is back.  It also removes a gaping hole in the city's urban fabric, it gives Tulsa a beautiful building it can be proud of, and potentially brings hundreds of new residents and workers to what is now an eyesore.  If Santa Fe Square, the Edge at East Village, Urban 8, and whatever is going on the Hartford Building all get built then all of a sudden we have a real, viable urban district.   You could walk all the way from Hodges Bend to the BOK Tower and have the entire experience feel like you were in the urban core of a real city.

Last point: everything Elliot Nelson has touched so far turns to gold.  I'm willing to knock a point or two off my IRR calculations for the city in return for his magic urban fairy dust. 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: davideinstein on March 03, 2016, 10:14:40 pm
I think this is the most valuable land in Tulsa and you can wait out for privately financed development. The East Village wrap around is inevitable.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on March 03, 2016, 10:51:24 pm
I think this is the most valuable land in Tulsa and you can wait out for privately financed development. The East Village wrap around is inevitable.

It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.

This is an excellent development. Let's do it.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on March 04, 2016, 08:40:56 am
It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.

This is an excellent development. Let's do it.

Let's agree to the amount with the conditions that the TIF is canceled if project is not completed as designed in two years including all streetscaping according to the area plan on the streets surrounding the development (both sides) and that they set aside 10% of the units to be affordable.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on March 04, 2016, 08:49:08 am
Question on the last point - does Tulsa have an inclusionary zoning policy? 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on March 04, 2016, 08:50:57 am
Question on the last point - does Tulsa have an inclusionary zoning policy? 

I don't know, but with a PUD asking for a TIF, everything should be on the table.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on March 04, 2016, 09:23:16 am
I don't know, but with a PUD asking for a TIF, everything should be on the table.

The moment a developer requests that tax payers give a direct subsidy to their development, the public has a right to scrutinize the project and require their input be considered on the final product...or lack thereof.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: carltonplace on March 08, 2016, 08:40:34 am
It's only been an empty parking lot for 50 years.

This is an excellent development. Let's do it.

Agreed and the current Blue Dome TIF is expiring. I don't see the problem here. This project once complete will drive even more development in the Blue Dome and East Village.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DowntownDan on March 10, 2016, 09:55:37 am
I don't have the energy to crunch the numbers, but this development will be a game changer.  It'll truly transform downtown and specifically the Blue Dome, Greenwood, and East Village, since it's right at the intersection of all three districts.  There's a limit to the amount of tax incentives for projects that is reasonable, but this one is worth it if it is even remotely reasonable.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2016, 12:43:14 pm
I hope it turns out to be as great as everyone seems to hope.

"At least it not parking lots anymore." is not what I want to think after it's done.

In any case, at least it won't be parking lots anymore.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on March 10, 2016, 12:53:08 pm
I hope it turns out to be as great as everyone seems to hope.

"At least it not parking lots anymore." is not what I want to think after it's done.

In any case, at least it won't be parking lots anymore.

But that’s not quite as bad as “At least it’s not trees and rocks anymore"


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2016, 01:06:04 pm
But that’s not quite as bad as “At least it’s not trees and rocks anymore"

Easy...you might get yourself elected mayor.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: AdamsHall on March 10, 2016, 03:17:15 pm
But that’s not quite as bad as “At least it’s not trees and rocks anymore"

This reminded me of the song "(Nothing But) Flowers" by the Talking Heads.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Laramie on March 16, 2016, 01:40:12 pm
This development will be a real jewel for Tulsa.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LeGenDz on April 17, 2016, 01:24:54 pm
Quote
Tulsa Mayor's Office Signs Off On East Village Development

TULSA, Oklahoma - The $150 million Santa Fe Square development project in Tulsa's East Village officially will move forward.
The city council approved the area between First and Second Streets and Elgin and Greenwood as a Tax Increment Finance District, and the mayor’s office signed off on that Friday.

With the TIF district official, the developers behind the project can move ahead with finalized plans that will include a hotel, retail and office space, apartments and a parking garage.

An exact timetable for groundbreaking is still up in the air, but hopes are sometime this year.

http://www.newson6.com/story/31744196/tulsa-mayors-office-signs-off-on-east-village-development


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: shavethewhales on April 18, 2016, 08:14:19 am
Awesome, this is huge news. I really expected this one to slip through the cracks. It's almost too good to be true.

We say it a lot, but it really feels like this project is a true momentum changer for downtown.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: carltonplace on April 18, 2016, 09:17:27 am
Between this and the Nordam property we are about to see another huge jump forward for our downtown.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 18, 2016, 09:49:19 am
.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on April 19, 2016, 07:46:14 am
TPS has approved the TIF now as well.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: sooneralum2012 on April 19, 2016, 03:44:43 pm
 Don't think we can say enough how big time this is.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Laramie on April 19, 2016, 03:57:07 pm
Don't think we can say enough how big time this is.

A true big time development:

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TheArtist on April 19, 2016, 06:05:23 pm
Been entertaining the idea of opening another store downtown but those spaces are too big to be a secondary store for me. 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on April 19, 2016, 07:00:25 pm
Been entertaining the idea of opening another store downtown but those spaces are too big to be a secondary store for me. 

Gift shop in the hotel


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2016, 08:26:54 am
Gift shop in the hotel

Winner!


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: sooneralum2012 on April 20, 2016, 10:11:56 am
sorry if this has been mentioned before, but is the parking garage going to have public parking?  Or is it just for residents.  I don't mind either way but from discussions with my friends they all seemed to be a bit bitchy the lot was going away.  A little shortsighted in my opinion, but would be nice if there was public parking nevertheless.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2016, 10:58:22 am
sorry if this has been mentioned before, but is the parking garage going to have public parking?  Or is it just for residents.  I don't mind either way but from discussions with my friends they all seemed to be a bit bitchy the lot was going away.  A little shortsighted in my opinion, but would be nice if there was public parking nevertheless.

It said it will have public parking along with reserved parking for hotel guests, tenants and offices. 1300 parking spaces should typically be plenty for this development and the Blue Dome District.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2016, 11:03:52 am
A true big time development:

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q596/swaveshake2/SFS1.jpg)

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf)


This is great news along with the PAC development. Imagine how different downtown would be with these places built, occupied and a completely filled in stretch of development connecting the East Village to Blue Dome to the Deco District. Then, once the Center of the Universe hub is built, (along with OKPOP and other stuff around there) the Brady district will be more connected and we will have a strong semblance of a downtown with a real urban core.

The Nordam village will add to this along with the Boxyard. I am excited to see what downtown will look like in about 3-5 years! Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on April 20, 2016, 11:35:07 am
I am excited to see what downtown will look like in about 3-5 years! Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.

(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2011/12/30/44/e4/DSC04025.JPG)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2016, 11:54:33 am
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2011/12/30/44/e4/DSC04025.JPG)

I said 3-5 years, not 10-15 years!  ;D


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on April 20, 2016, 12:13:46 pm
Maybe we will finally have the demand to build some nice condos you can buy.

Urban 8 is for sale, as is the ugly little Bumgarner development near the BOK Center.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2016, 12:36:30 pm
Urban 8 is for sale, as is the ugly little Bumgarner development near the BOK Center.

Was that Bumgarner or Westervelt?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: swake on April 20, 2016, 01:10:07 pm
Was that Bumgarner or Westervelt?

Actually, it was both:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2016, 02:22:48 pm
Actually, it was both:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html



Marriage made in developer Hell.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: NotRobertMoses on September 07, 2016, 12:10:43 pm
Is the main facade of this development facing the corner of 1st and Greenwood or 2nd and Elgin?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on September 07, 2016, 12:23:34 pm
Is the main facade of this development facing the corner of 1st and Greenwood or 2nd and Elgin?


2nd & Elgin.  The parking garage is along Greenwood between 1st and 2nd.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on September 07, 2016, 03:19:23 pm
2nd & Elgin.  The parking garage is along Greenwood between 1st and 2nd.

Doesn’t improve the view to the NW much from Urban8 or the Edge (pending renderings of course).


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on September 08, 2016, 12:50:38 pm
For the past 2-3 weeks I’ve notice a drilling rig working around the parking lot.  Does anyone know if this is core sampling or some other activity related to Santa Fe Square, or just somebody who thinks drilling holes in a parking lot is fun?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2016, 09:48:38 am
For the past 2-3 weeks I’ve notice a drilling rig working around the parking lot.  Does anyone know if this is core sampling or some other activity related to Santa Fe Square, or just somebody who thinks drilling holes in a parking lot is fun?

Typically, they do core samples to see what kind of soil is there so they can design the foundation and change up the soil composition if needed. I would guess that is what they are doing. Good sign that the project is moving forward, but also a very early step.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on September 09, 2016, 02:02:42 pm
Here’s a tenant announcement, though I think the 5000 square feet for a seven story hotel is a misprint:

Quote
Hotel Indigo coming to Santa Fe Square in downtown Tulsa

Photo gallery: 25 downtown development projects you should know about

Hotel Indigo, a national boutique hotel brand, is headed for Santa Fe Square in downtown Tulsa, developer Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC said Friday.

The seven-story, 5,000-square-foot hotel will be along Elgin Avenue between First and Second streets. It will be part of the mixed-use development at Santa Fe Square from Nelson Stowe, which has been billed by some as "really going to shift the needle."

The plan is to break ground on the hotel in the spring of 2017.

“My business partners and I had great success with the Fairfield Inn & Suites in the Brady Arts District that we sought out another opportunity in a similar area not currently being served by a hotel,” said Jeff Hartman, part of the ownership group and owner of SJS Hospitality, which will manage the hotel.

The hotel will feature a 1,500-square-foot meeting room, an upscale restaurant and bar with a private dining area and a state-of-the-art fitness studio. Guest rooms will have balconies that look out on ONEOK Field or on the Tulsa skyline. Patrons will have access to Santa Fe Square's 1,100-space parking garage.

The Hotel Indigo brand bills itself as being unique to each city that it's in, according to its website. It's a high-end brand and most of its dozens of locations in the U.S. are in large cities or their wealthy suburbs.

“Understanding the downtown market, we wanted to offer a product that is unique to Tulsa and integrated into the district," Hartman said.

“With Hotel Indigo, no two properties are the same and each one draws on the story of the local area to inspire every aspect of the hotel from intriguing design to distinctive local ingredients."

The hotel is the opening salvo in the Santa Fe Square development, which was announced about a year ago. The development will replace what's now a parking lot guarded by the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, which will be repurposed.

SJS Hospitality is a partnership among Hartman and Steve and Spike Ehrhardt. The group owns four hotels in metro  Tulsa.

Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC's ownership group includes Hartman, Greg Oilphant and David Sharp.

GH2 Hospitality Architects is designing the project, which will built by Clark Construction with financing from Valley National Bank.

Samuel Hardiman 918-581-8466

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 09, 2016, 02:20:37 pm
Here’s a tenant announcement, though I think the 5000 square feet for a seven story hotel is a misprint:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html

It looks like each floor will be 5,000 square feet.

Quote
Patrons will have access to Santa Fe Square's 1,100-space parking garage.

When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2  blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on September 09, 2016, 03:10:18 pm
It looks like each floor will be 5,000 square feet.

When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2  blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.

I see the World revised their figure after I’d posted that.  A valet is always an option to cater to the lazy people.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: BKDotCom on September 09, 2016, 04:02:57 pm
When you look at earlier Santa Fe renderings, the guests will have to walk pretty far (almost 2 blocks) to get from parking spot to hotel room. Not a big deal for many wanting to experience a walkable urban area, but I wonder if they will opt to move the parking garage closer to the middle (I hope not, 2  blocks isn't that far). It seems surprising to me if the hotel developer is ok with that much of a distance for an upscale hotel, even if valet is used more commonly by the guests.

The current area is a parking lot.   They're putting a hotel on the parking lot.   It's going to be too far to walk from the parking lot to the hotel built on the parking lot?

Distance between Elgin and Greenwood:  750 feet:
Distance from Woodland Hills food court entrance to outer parking space 590 ft
It appears that it's 300 feet from the parking garage's elevators to the hotel.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Bamboo World on September 09, 2016, 07:03:50 pm

The subject of walkability is mentioned twice in the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=story).  However, the Hotel Indigo rendering published with the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World story (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=image&photo=0) appears to show a pedestrian environment which is less friendly than the Santa Fe Square development drawings from about two years ago (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf).

The Santa Fe Square drawings show the public sidewalk along the east side of Elgin protected with back-in angled parking and trees.  The Hotel Indigo rendering shows the public sidewalk interrupted by large curb cuts.

The Santa Fe Square drawings show a patio to the west of the hotel, with outdoor seating, tables, and umbrellas.  The Hotel Indigo rendering shows a vehicular drop-off area at that location, with no outdoor tables and chairs, and with no curb ramps for pedestrians or wheelchairs.

The Santa Fe Square drawings and the Hotel Indigo rendering show an on-site private street between the hotel and the office building, but the roadway appears to be much wider in the Hotel Indigo rendering, with approximately seven fewer curbside parking spaces than were shown on the Santa Fe Square drawings (about two fewer on the north side of the private street and about five fewer on the east side of Elgin).

At ground level on the site, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows eight motor vehicles and eight pedestrians.  On the 100 block of South Elgin, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows seven or eight motor vehicles using the public street, but only three pedestrians on the adjacent public sidewalk.    



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on September 09, 2016, 09:09:49 pm
The hotel drop off was originally shown as part of the existing building at 1st & Elgin, is that building still part of edge hotel or is it just the new building?  I prefer if there is a drop off that it is on 1st instead of Elgin. 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 12, 2016, 08:04:41 am
The current area is a parking lot.   They're putting a hotel on the parking lot.   It's going to be too far to walk from the parking lot to the hotel built on the parking lot?

Distance between Elgin and Greenwood:  750 feet:
Distance from Woodland Hills food court entrance to outer parking space 590 ft
It appears that it's 300 feet from the parking garage's elevators to the hotel.
http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf

300 feet is great, however if they had to park at the back of the lot and were staying in middle/front of hotel it would be closer to 600-700 feet). I was just curious because the rendering has changed and didn't know how far that would be. Plus, a big upscale hotel developer is going to push what their clientele will want (and likely get concessions based on history). Bamboo posted a list of ways in which the new rendering is already significantly worse in terms of walkability. I don't think it was too far either way, personally (and for sake of downtown getting rid of so much parking).


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 12, 2016, 08:32:37 am
The subject of walkability is mentioned twice in the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=story).  However, the Hotel Indigo rendering published with the September 9, 2016 Tulsa World story (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-coming-to-santa-fe-square-in-downtown-tulsa/article_8821f483-d497-5a3f-b7d9-5497e352c6d1.html?mode=image&photo=0) appears to show a pedestrian environment which is less friendly than the Santa Fe Square development drawings from about two years ago (http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf).

The Santa Fe Square drawings show the public sidewalk along the east side of Elgin protected with back-in angled parking and trees.  The Hotel Indigo rendering shows the public sidewalk interrupted by large curb cuts.

The Santa Fe Square drawings show a patio to the west of the hotel, with outdoor seating, tables, and umbrellas.  The Hotel Indigo rendering shows a vehicular drop-off area at that location, with no outdoor tables and chairs, and with no curb ramps for pedestrians or wheelchairs.

The Santa Fe Square drawings and the Hotel Indigo rendering show an on-site private street between the hotel and the office building, but the roadway appears to be much wider in the Hotel Indigo rendering, with approximately seven fewer curbside parking spaces than were shown on the Santa Fe Square drawings (about two fewer on the north side of the private street and about five fewer on the east side of Elgin).

At ground level on the site, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows eight motor vehicles and eight pedestrians.  On the 100 block of South Elgin, the Hotel Indigo rendering shows seven or eight motor vehicles using the public street, but only three pedestrians on the adjacent public sidewalk.    

Good call. I couldn't identify what the differences were exactly, but the new rendering looked much less walkable and more like a car drop-off area not designed for pedestrians. With as little info as they have in the renderings, it's a big loss for pedestrian-friendly development. Too late! Already got the TIFF.

Just like with the "development" across from BOK Center, they promise a lot, get your tax money and then deliver a much cheaper-looking less-walkable generic product with a chain-hotel that is good enough but not great. Would the One Place Tower and copy-paste hotel going in next to it excite people like the original renderings that showed interesting buildings with a bustling courtyard? (See: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20324.msg276577#msg276577 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20324.msg276577#msg276577) - Note announced in 2010 and still not finished 6 years later)

I guess they're taking a bit from art of the deal: "Play to people's fantasies". We should be thankful for the opportunity to put millions into the developers' pockets and rejoice when the plain buildings and monolithic garage are finished in 5-10 years along with this upscale hotel we will never use. It will all be worth it when the Blue Dome starts to feel a bit like the unique urban paradise at 2nd and Cheyenne!


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on September 12, 2016, 01:02:40 pm
It looks like the old Santa Fe Depot at 1st & Elgin is part of the hotel, will there be rooms there or is that where the meeting space will be?  Hopefully when the designs go in for planning review they can force the drop off to be on the north side


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Bamboo World on September 12, 2016, 01:14:17 pm


The hotel drop off was originally shown as part of the existing building at 1st & Elgin...

...I prefer if there is a drop off that it is on 1st instead of Elgin.
 

I'm not sure why the drop-off was changed from 1st to Elgin, or if it's supposed to be a second drop-off for the hotel.

Regardless, curb cuts for hotel drop-offs are not best practice for increasing walkability.  A drop-off lane would be better at the curb, and one could work quite well on First Street (converted to two-way traffic).

From Walkable City, page 184:
Quote

Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now* is to simply not allow any new ones.  Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane.  In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way.  To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.


*now = 2012, as opposed to the 1970s

Source:  Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728), for sale online or locally at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

The Santa Fe Square development drawings published about two years ago show the hotel set back about 55 feet from the property line along Elgin, which is a large setback on an urban street.  The drawings show a courtyard with tables and chairs in that setback, but the Hotel Indigo rendering published last week shows curb cuts for a drop-off there instead of an outdoor dining area.  That design revision lowers the walkability factor -- significantly. 

The proposed Hotel Indigo drop-off area is a suburban, auto-centric idea, very much like the setback for Jackson Technical, currently under construction five blocks south of the Santa Fe Square site.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: rebound on September 12, 2016, 04:08:54 pm
It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS  development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint.  Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door.  Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot.  What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side.  If they kept the  curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash.  (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Bamboo World on September 12, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS  development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint.  Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door.  Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot.  What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side.  If they kept the  curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash.  (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)


Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Quote

Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now is to simply not allow any new ones.  Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane.  In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way.  To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.


Source:  Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728) by Jeff Speck, page 184.  The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel.  A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.

Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways.  Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets.  Walkability will be reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.

*Many people would describe the author of Walkable City as the expert on walkability.  The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month.  What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion.  If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed.  If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Conan71 on September 12, 2016, 06:55:21 pm
Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn’t even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Bamboo World on September 12, 2016, 07:46:29 pm


Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn’t even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.


I chose those two examples because they're local and have about the same number of rooms as the proposed Hotel Indigo.  The 220-room Holiday Inn at 7th & Boulder doesn't need two curb cuts for its drop-off, either.  If its canopy extended a bit farther south, the drop-off could be handled curbside there, too. 

In my opinion, the least pedestrian-friendly hotel drop-offs downtown are:

1. The Doubletree on Seventh Street.
2. The Hyatt Regency on Second Street.
3. The Fairfield Inn on Main Street.

I can understand the need for covered drop-off areas at the Doubletree and the Hyatt, but the 102-room Fairfield Inn is relatively small.  The Fairfield's curb cut and driveway have special textured paving.  It's dangerous when wet because it's as slick as snot.  Regular concrete would be so much better and safer.  No curb cut on Main at all would have been even better.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on September 12, 2016, 08:04:49 pm
Urban hotels don't need a curb cut.  This isn't the past where cabs needed a place to idle.  Just don't have meters in front for the "drop off" area.  People driving can valet there, and everyone else can pick up their uber/lyft there.

New Halcyon Hotel in Denver - 155 rooms and no curb cut for the drop off
(https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/Vjx4lI0bVE1g6Xd8zz5x9A/ls.jpg)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: rebound on September 13, 2016, 07:46:01 am
Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Source:  Walkable City (https://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp/0865477728) by Jeff Speck, page 184.  The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel.  A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.

Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways.  Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets.  Walkability will be reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.

*Many people would describe the author of Walkable City as the expert on walkability.  The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month.  What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion.  If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed.  If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.

I was being a little sarcastic (snide?  tounge-in-cheek? not sure...) with my "not an expert" comment, as I had already read your earlier post.  I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicate no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building.  (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice.  They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)

My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side.  If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability.  Of course there is room for improvement.  However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side.  It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.   


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Bamboo World on September 13, 2016, 09:03:12 am


I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicated no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building.  (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice.  They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)

My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side.  If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability.  Of course there is room for improvement.


Yes, there's room for improvement.  I'm comparing the proposed design for the Elgin Avenue side published just last week to the previous design for Santa Fe Square that has been shown for the past two years.  In terms of walkability, the newer version is worse than the older version.


However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side.  It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.
   

It depends on what's going on inside the hotel and where.  If there's an event scheduled for a room in the older portion of the building on the north, a First Street drop-off would be handy.  If it's guests going to their rooms, an Elgin Avenue drop off might be handy.  A drop-off on the private street south of the hotel might work, too.

My point was about the emphasis on the "walkability factor" mentioned in the Tulsa World article last week.  The revised design, at least along Elgin Avenue, is much less walkable than the design that has been promoted for the past two years, showing a patio with outdoor dining on the west side, not another curb cut for a drop-off.  In my opinion, there's no need to give lip service to walkability and then design something that's not pedestrian friendly.  That's silly.  Curb cuts for urban hotel drop-offs reduce walkability.  The design for Hotel Indigo published last week is a suburban idea, not urban.  It's not pedestrian-friendly.

Canopies can extend out toward the curb, so a covered drop-off would be possible on Elgin.  Another covered drop-off would be possible at the curb on First Street, but it would work much better with First as a two-way.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on November 12, 2016, 01:18:27 pm
From the TW about Class A office space..

Quote
The proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon.. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.

“Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction,” Reese said. “That’s just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, ‘The boats are floating, but we’re not going anyway.’
“But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong.”

http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html?mode=jqm)


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on November 12, 2016, 10:38:20 pm
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on November 13, 2016, 09:35:26 am
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?

I would guess it would be a bit of both.  Class A space, per the article, has a vacancy rate of 4.5% so there is demand.  If new companies wanted Class A space they don't have a lot of options, especially new "Class AA" product wired for the latest technology with large open plans, amenities and located in an urban mixed-use development like Santa Fe Square.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on November 13, 2016, 10:01:37 am
Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?

And even if it is shuffling tenants from pre-existing Class A to new Class A, the older, dated Class A they left is now unlocked to do something else with.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on November 13, 2016, 12:05:53 pm
The article has a list of new Class A office space going up and it's all way out in South Tulsa or Jenks.  I've worked in South Tulsa before and man it made getting lunch way less fun.  I had to walk across a death highway six lanes wide masquerading as a city street to access a blazing hot strip center to get chain food or Sonic.  I probably gained 10 pounds. 

Vs. downtown where I had lots of tasty lunch options and didn't feel at risk of eminent death to get a cup of coffee  And after work happy hour was way more doable.  and the looking out the window "wow, so this is Tulsa" vibe was way better.

My 2 cents.  But apparently I'm in a minority.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 14, 2016, 09:47:03 am
The scuttle butt has always been that Tulsa has suffered a chronic shortage of Class-A office space.  There is a subset that would be "B" in a major market that is sometimes referred to as "Tulsa A," and even that is of limited supply downtown.   Anyone with actual real estate knowledge feel free to chime in, but checking Loopnet and CBRE, class A is very limited. Clearly the definition is open to debate, but...

Downtown you have OneOK, which I don't think has accepted new leases in a long while. BOK Tower, which I've repeatedly heard is bursting at the seams. The Dirty Ice Cube, which is City of Tulsa and BOK fairly well leased up (one open floor it appears on CBRE, it isn't clear they want to divide). Williams 1 and 2 (black towers), which have always done well.  And I understand Cimerex has decided not to lease office space in their new tower.

Next level, "Tulsa A" or high class B space, would be 1st Place Tower, which filled up fast with OneGas (Loopnet has 1 space listed and CBRE lists 2).  110 W. 7th just did and is doing more major renovations, and I think that is fairly well leased (CBRE lists one space).

I think Bank of America Tower, Petroleum Club, and MidCon would be seen as class-B spaces. Still nice, but certain corporations wanting to show off wouldn't be impressed.  Some older buildings are striving to stay in class-B, and there is a good bit of Class-C space. Surprisingly, even in the downtown it appears office spaces are doing well.

http://www.loopnet.com/for-lease/office/?bb=y28y7xv49Jlh2xmC
http://www.cbre.us/o/tulsa/Pages/office-for-lease.aspx

For the next sizeable "A" building, you'd have to go to Warren Place at 61st and Yale.  So if you were a law office looking for 20k of A space, or a corporation wanting to move a HQ and wanting 50k feet downtown, you're going to have a tough time finding it.

I don't think any spec Class-A has been built in downtown Tulsa for decades. When the Dirty Ice Cube was taken off the market, that about sucked it dry.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: saintnicster on November 14, 2016, 11:22:22 am
Amusingly, just posted today
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html
Putting the Class A in Tulsa office space
Quote
Southern Hills Tower overlooks a world-class golf course. The 15-story One Technology Center has a solar well that is good for the environment and easy on the eyes. Outside Unit Corp. headquarters are nature trails and a pond.

All are examples in Tulsa of Class A office buildings — multi-tenant spaces and grounds that are a couple of cuts above grade. They are some of the best office spaces in Tulsa.

“Typically, Class A office space would be the brightest and the shiniest and the newest in the market,” said Martin Martin, first vice president for CBRE’s Tulsa office.

Building Owners and Managers Association International groups office space into three classes: A, B and C. Class C Buildings compete for tenants requiring functional space at rents below the average for the area. Class B structures offer rents in the average range, adequate systems and building finishes in the fair to good range.

Class A spaces sport above-average rents, high-quality finishes, state-of-the-art elevator and HVAC systems and a litany of amenities, said Tanda L. Francis, managing broker-Tulsa for the real estate firm Price Edwards & Company. Those conveniences can include covered garage parking, fitness and child-care centers, security personnel, on-site food and banking services and locker rooms.

Recent additions to the Class A market in Tulsa include the Geophysical Resource Center 2 (8811 S. Yale Ave.), American Plaza (6011 S. Urbana Ave.) and Unit Corp. (8200 S. Unit Drive), as well as First Oklahoma Bank and Gateway Mortgage Group, both of which are in Jenks, said Matt Reese, an associate in CBRE’s Tulsa office.

Premier office buildings are recognizable from the get-go, he said.
“One thing that we notice with clients as soon as we walk through the door is the level of finish in a lobby and if there is any building personnel there to greet people,” he said. “That’s kind of a telltale sign of a building that’s concerned about just anyone coming in from off the street. They are there to direct traffic, to help lock up the building in the evenings and greet people in the mornings.”

Fitness centers and/or locker rooms with showers are gaining in popularity, especially with millennials who like to bicycle to work.
“Perhaps they have some dead space in the building, an area that they’ve had trouble leasing,” Reese said. “The thinking is that they could spend a little bit of capital and have a common space for tenants in the building to work out or congregate. That’s kind of a trend of office space utilization — more communal space.”

A total of 43 Class A properties totaling 7,816,546 square feet exist in the Tulsa metro, representing about 25 percent of the total office market, said Cody Brandt, senior research analyst for CBRE in Tulsa. Sixty-three percent of the total square feet in the Class A market are within the Inner Dispersal Loop (the percentages that don’t include medical office and properties less than 10,000 square feet).
According to CBRE’s market view for the first half of 2016, 4.5 percent of the area’s Class A space is vacant, and the vacancy rate of all properties CBRE surveys is 13.1 percent. The average Class A asking rate for the first half of 2016 is $21.81 per square foot per year.

“This 4.5 is a very low percent,” Martin said. “That means you have a really tight market in Class A office space. If you’ve got a tenant coming into the market who really wants to be in the really nice office space, they don’t have a lot of options right now.
“It’s kind of like which cars sell quicker — the Cadillacs or the Chevrolets? If you can afford the Class A’s, you are going to go for the Class A’s. But the rates for the Class A’s are more.”

The most plush office tends to attract energy-related companies, as well as large finance, consulting and architectural firms, Martin said. CBRE’s latest market view shows that Tulsa’s office market has maintained a trend of resiliency during the downturn of the energy industry.
“Looking at a market as a whole, on paper it’s a very good place to be,” Reese said. “But coming from an occupier services perspective, if we have a company that’s interested in entering the Tulsa market and they have Class A space in a market like Dallas or Houston or Chicago or Kansas City, it doesn’t present many opportunities.

“It’s something you’ve seen with the vacancy that has been filled at the Warren Towers I (75.9 percent leased) and II (98.2 percent). The energy industry struggles and puts some space on the market, and we saw a good majority of that filled extremely quickly because it presents opportunities for people to upgrade.”

The proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.

For projects such as Santa Fe to continue to materialize, however, crude oil prices likely will have to enjoy a sustained increase, Reese said.
“Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction,” Reese said. “That’s just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, ‘The boats are floating, but we’re not going anyway.’
“But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong.”


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on May 11, 2017, 03:21:31 pm
Hotel Indigo on tap for June construction in Blue Dome District

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html)

Quote
Officials are scheduled to break ground next month on a $18 million boutique hotel in the Blue Dome District, one of the hotel's developers said Thursday.

Hotel Indigo, a 106-guest-room, seven-story facility, will mark the first new construction in the proposed mixed-use development at Santa Fe Square. Jeff Hartman is part of the Hotel Indigo's ownership group, Blue Dome Hotel Center LLC, and operating partner of SJS Hospitality, which will manage the hotel.

"It will be our flagship hotel," Hartman said. "It's a big project for downtown. We sold our very first hotel, Candlewood Suites, two years ago in order to have the capital build a Hotel Indigo."

SJS Hospitality sold Candlewood Suites, 10008 E. 73rd St. in Tulsa, to Wood LLC for $3.525 million in May 2015.

Hotel Indigo, 131 Elgin Avenue, is scheduled to feature a 1,500-square-foot meeting room, an upscale restaurant and bar with a private dining area and a state-of-the-art fitness studio.

Guest rooms will have balconies that look out on ONEOK Field or on the Tulsa skyline, and patrons will have access to Santa Fe Square’s 1,100-space parking garage.


Hotel Indigo will be SJS's fifth Tulsa-area hotel, including its third one downtown, joining a Courtyard by Marriott in the Atlas Life Building and a Fairfield Inn & Suites in the Brady Arts District. Greg Oliphant and David Sharp are the other partners in Blue Dome Hotel Center, Hartman said.

Named for the old Santa Fe Rail Depot, which will be renovated and incorporated in the project, Santa Fe Square is a mixed-used development by Nelson Stowe, with principals Elliot Nelson and Casey Stowe. Besides the hotel, it is scheduled to include retail and office space and 291 apartments.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on May 11, 2017, 09:42:40 pm
Awesome - I am so excited for this development. That said,the national implosion in retail makes me nervous for Santa Fe Square.   


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: BKDotCom on May 12, 2017, 07:42:05 am
Awesome - I am so excited for this development. That said,the national implosion in retail makes me nervous for Santa Fe Square.   

Mixed-use for the win.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: saintnicster on May 12, 2017, 07:47:04 am
Hotel Indigo on tap for June construction in Blue Dome District

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/hotel-indigo-on-tap-for-june-construction-in-blue-dome/article_d349c724-4143-518b-8fbf-f8fb54315318.html)
It'll be nice to be proven wrong, but that's aweful close to that year mark put down by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN ;) http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21006.msg310780#msg310780

EDIT - yes, I realize that the SantaFe building itself has been being renovated for a while now, but the true mark of progress/victory will be removing American Parking off that block for a while.  At least until they "win" the bid to manage the lot or whatever


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 12, 2017, 12:06:20 pm
It'll be nice to be proven wrong, but that's aweful close to that year mark put down by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN ;) http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21006.msg310780#msg310780

EDIT - yes, I realize that the SantaFe building itself has been being renovated for a while now, but the true mark of progress/victory will be removing American Parking off that block for a while.  At least until they "win" the bid to manage the lot or whatever

Well at least they plan to start on new construction within a year!

I'm more bothered that the View lot still sits empty years after it was announced.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: johrasephoenix on May 12, 2017, 12:23:35 pm

I'm more bothered that the View lot still sits empty years after it was announced.


What is the deal with The View?  My guess is they're trying to value engineer the rents downward.  Or just giving time for all these new downtown apartments to be absorbed. 

The Edge always strikes me as not having best site plan.  You could easily fit 30-40% more apartments on that site if they had used the back half of the lot better instead of a long and low parking structure.  I still think it was a great spot for Tulsa's first "Texas Donut", where the apartment building wraps all the way around an interior parking garage, providing a continuous street wall and masking the parking structure.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RDQh277PWAY/UXx7Ya3u-ZI/AAAAAAAAA-E/MdMXoVqC6-M/s1600/Dallas_donut.jpg)



 


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 12, 2017, 01:11:11 pm
I still think it was a great spot for Tulsa's first "Texas Donut", where the apartment building wraps all the way around an interior parking garage, providing a continuous street wall and masking the parking structure.

We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on May 12, 2017, 02:00:49 pm
We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.

I always assumed ODOT forgot to tell the bridge designer they changed the plan and were keeping 51st two-way between Lewis and Harvard.  I wonder what the construction costs were for that extra 20 feet of unnecessary/used bridge?

As for Santa Fe Square, glad to see at least one phase begin.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: sgrizzle on May 12, 2017, 08:27:56 pm
I always assumed ODOT forgot to tell the bridge designer they changed the plan and were keeping 51st two-way between Lewis and Harvard.  I wonder what the construction costs were for that extra 20 feet of unnecessary/used bridge?

The Lewis bridge was one of the first phases in that project. It was probably too far along to change when the plans changed.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: SXSW on May 14, 2017, 07:00:39 pm
The Edge always strikes me as not having best site plan.  You could easily fit 30-40% more apartments on that site if they had used the back half of the lot better instead of a long and low parking structure.   

Yeah I've wondered the same thing, seems like a waste of space and that the added cost of a taller interior garage would've been offset by the added units created along 2nd.  I guess they could do a Phase II at some point but then you would have to demo the parking structure.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 15, 2017, 10:26:39 am
We couldn't figure out the Texas-turnaround (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_U-turn) either. Look at this lane to nowhere at 51st & Lewis (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0900506,-95.9579292,3a,75y,55.76h,94.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd0HagQb9Jj-DdWVHzU4GIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I'm sure that was supposed to be a u-turn lane that didn't go through the light. Instead, we wimped out and couldn't find it within ourselves to make 51st between Lewis and Harvard one-way and we're left with a confusing ghost lane that people accidentally drive onto. Tulsa: Taking Texas Ideas and Half-Donkeying Them.

Who would accidentally drive onto the shoulder with that high of a curb? Looks like they did a good job with what they had to work with even if it's a bit odd. That would be stupid to make 51st 1-way for that stretch just to accommodate a u-turn.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 14, 2017, 12:42:51 pm
Ground breaking was yesterday:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: MostSeriousness on June 14, 2017, 12:51:19 pm
From some of the articles I saw, restaurant and retail/office space on the first floor. Hotel (the first part of the project), and apartments coming online. Parking garage for all the new tenants and visitors.

Event center (small) and rooftop bar as well


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 14, 2017, 01:19:23 pm
My guesses...I like making quick business plans with no expertise...

$18 million for 106 rooms. I am guessing that 75% of the money was spent on the rooms and remainder on the "upscale restaurant, banquet hall and rooftop bar". That would be about $13.5 million on hotel rooms or about $127,000 per room. I am guessing the average room size is 325 square feet or about $400 per foot construction costs. The national average for hotel room construction is slightly more currently.

To get $127,000 back at an average of $127 a night (total guess for easy math) you would have to rent it for 1,000 nights with no expenses. I have read that expenses for a hotel room vary from $12 a night to $75 a night on average. I will assume that $57 works (again for easy math). That leaves $70 a day to pay back construction costs.

If you had 100% occupancy, the rooms would generate $7,000 a day income or $2.5 million a year. The construction costs would be paid back in a little over seven years. At two thirds capacity it would take eleven years. Rent from the other three things would generate some revenue, but not enough to offset continual updates and operations.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 15, 2017, 10:51:21 am
My guesses...I like making quick business plans with no expertise...

$18 million for 106 rooms. I am guessing that 75% of the money was spent on the rooms and remainder on the "upscale restaurant, banquet hall and rooftop bar". That would be about $13.5 million on hotel rooms or about $127,000 per room. I am guessing the average room size is 325 square feet or about $400 per foot construction costs. The national average for hotel room construction is slightly more currently.

To get $127,000 back at an average of $127 a night (total guess for easy math) you would have to rent it for 1,000 nights with no expenses. I have read that expenses for a hotel room vary from $12 a night to $75 a night on average. I will assume that $57 works (again for easy math). That leaves $70 a day to pay back construction costs.

If you had 100% occupancy, the rooms would generate $7,000 a day income or $2.5 million a year. The construction costs would be paid back in a little over seven years. At two thirds capacity it would take eleven years. Rent from the other three things would generate some revenue, but not enough to offset continual updates and operations.



It is supposed to be a luxury hotel so I am guessing it will be at least $140/night and perhaps have a higher percentage of luxury suites than other hotels (so maybe more $200-$400 options). Occupancy rates will be lower than that but the revenue per room should be higher. Also, there will be other revenue from renting banquet hall and rooftop bar.

If they can break even in 11 years, that would still be really good as they'll then own a hotel worth millions with potentially zero debt.
 
I do wonder how a luxury hotel will do there and how much better that will be than other hotels around. I typically prefer hotels with very nice interiors and don't care or take advantage of the "luxury" offerings. I care more about views, location and a pool/hot tub. I don't care about bellmen, room service or valet. You can get that for less than $150 most places and there's quite a few nice hotels around for under that so I am curious what will make Indigo luxurious.

I looked at their Houston location (not great, but also not luxury) and the Austin one is nice but doesn't look much better than other hotels around. Prices in Austin/San Antonio are $144-$170. Some of their places have a bit of an at-home or beach home comfortable feel. Rooms look a bit more spacious than typical.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on June 15, 2017, 11:10:38 am
I’ve stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them.  I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury.  I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome.  As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: MostSeriousness on June 15, 2017, 11:19:37 am
That's good to hear. From seeing in articles "luxury hotel" and quotes from the groundbreaking saying that the hotel fits the district, my vision of luxury wasn't exactly in line with the district.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: rebound on June 15, 2017, 11:26:18 am
I’ve stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them.  I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury.  I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome.  As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.

I also like Indigo, and think it will be a great fit or Blue Dome.  Also agree that it is more boutique-trendy, than luxury.   I've enjoyed ever one I have stayed in.   The Indigo in Atlanta across from the Fox Theater is a pretty cool one, and I have stayed several times there.  Indigo is part of the IHG brand, which includes Holiday Inn, Crown Plaza, and Intercontinental. 





Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: DTowner on June 15, 2017, 12:17:03 pm
That's good to hear. From seeing in articles "luxury hotel" and quotes from the groundbreaking saying that the hotel fits the district, my vision of luxury wasn't exactly in line with the district.

"Luxury hotel" like "farm to table" has pretty much lost all real meaning with its profligate use.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 15, 2017, 12:19:21 pm
I’ve stayed in several Hotel Indigos around the country and always enjoyed them.  I thought of them as more of having an eclectic and cool vibe, rather than luxury.  I think that is the type of hotel best suited for the Blue Dome.  As for the economics, this group has turned a historic building into a hotel and built one from the ground up in two distinctly different parts of downtown, so I will defer to their expertise on whether the economics make sense.

That makes more sense then. They announced "luxury hotel" a number of times. Unless this one is planned to be drastically different from others, the "luxury" tag shouldn't have been used. Boutique should have been used instead. Sounds a bit like Aloft style of rehabbing old buildings to make quaint/eccentric hotels. That would make a lot more sense in the Blue Dome.



Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 15, 2017, 12:21:47 pm
The article on TW said it "will be no cookie cutter" and has some neat renderings of inside:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/blue-dome-district-s-planned-hotel-indigo-will-be-no/article_e1a20d3b-cc7e-51df-94c8-79e5a88d729c.html)

Also:
Quote
An indoor-outdoor rooftop bar that will accommodate 60 to 85 people will be open to the public.

I'm glad the rooftop bar will be open to the public. Tulsa needs more rooftop bars! We have Mayo and what else? Is that it? I guess we have a couple places you can eat at up high, but besides AHHA, not many rooftops accessible by the public.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: hello on June 15, 2017, 02:47:44 pm
I went on a Blue Dome tour a few months ago and someone from the Hotel Indigo group was there, getting a feel of the location and history. I think they'll do this right.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: Townsend on June 16, 2017, 11:24:27 am

Also:
I'm glad the rooftop bar will be open to the public. Tulsa needs more rooftop bars! We have Mayo and what else? Is that it? I guess we have a couple places you can eat at up high, but besides AHHA, not many rooftops accessible by the public.

El Guapo has seating on the roof but it's pretty closed off so it mostly feels open-air instead of rooftop.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 01, 2017, 08:07:26 am
Drove by yesterday and saw columns rising from the site.


Title: Re: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...
Post by: LeGenDz on August 02, 2017, 12:49:38 am
Think those were for the hotel