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Non-Tulsa Discussions => Sports Talk => Topic started by: Laramie on August 02, 2015, 02:42:47 pm



Title: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on August 02, 2015, 02:42:47 pm
 
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6fu2pyLx9a3_90W76_ywbW0LDc4vOPPSmkZ_qzxZyzATKIsISLw)
Is Tulsa's potential underestimated?
(http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/gallery/chargers-raiders-la-stadium-renderings/screen-shot-2015-01-09-at-2-59-18-pm.png)



Tulsa has 2 minor league soccer franchises (USL, NPSL) in operation within the city's proper.    Although, minor league attendance isn't always the best element to gauge a city's capacity to support major league sports--it shouldn't be ignored or discounted.  Tulsa has a strong soccer history on his resume which would have been stronger had the United States Football League (USFL) upped the ante on competition for area sports dollars which oversaturated the market in the mid 80s.

The Tulsa metropolitan area (969,224 residents) will eclipse 1 million residents soon; that's the safety net number used for many 'break-through' cities that obtained their first major professional franchise (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL).  MLS isn't quite on par with the top 4 major leagues; however, it's the top tier for soccer on the big league level in North America.

Tulsa's demographic numbers are comparable to cities like Memphis, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Raleigh & Salt Lake City when they obtained their first big league franchise.  Tulsa has 3 fortune 500 companies (ONEOK #237, NGL Energy Partners #299 and Williams Cos. #370) more than any of the above individual cities mentioned--along with an overall impressive corporate portfolio.

NBA has a strong hold on the OKC sports market; doubt it would be in any hurry to get on the MLS radar.

The stadium conversation...

Quote
A few of the details mentioned:

     •~10,000 seat capacity initially with expansion capabilities
     •Two potential locations in downtown Tulsa
     •Horseshoe shape
     •Removable sod for other events
     •Sounds like they're aiming for 2020 opening at the latest  

Very exciting for Tulsa as they've been on the shortlist for MLS expansion in the past (not so much recently). Is this the push to get back on that shortlist?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comments/32p6cw/report_of_soccer_specific_stadium_coming_to_tulsa/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comments/32p6cw/report_of_soccer_specific_stadium_coming_to_tulsa/)

Do you think Tulsa is ripe for Major League Soccer (MLS); should we be on their radar.

Source links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas)  

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/energy/three-tulsa-companies-crack-the-fortune-list/article_ef5d6684-2621-511c-a518-4504736d9439.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/energy/three-tulsa-companies-crack-the-fortune-list/article_ef5d6684-2621-511c-a518-4504736d9439.html)


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: swake on August 02, 2015, 07:26:26 pm
I fully expect an expandable soccer stadium to be part of the next Vision package. Dams on river are positively going to be on the ballot and I think a soccer stadium is a pretty safe bet as well.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: LandArchPoke on August 10, 2015, 09:22:50 am
I think in terms of market size - Tulsa is way under estimated by everyone. It's a quicker drive from Wichita to Tulsa than it is from Wichita to KC. Same with Springfield, MO to Tulsa than to KC or STL. What does that mean?

Well in terms of market capture for an MLS team in Tulsa we are right at the center of 6 million people in a 2 to 2.5 hour drive which is a similar market size to Denver and Portland. More than enough to support an MLS team. MSA is a bad indicator for whether we have enough people to support a team or not, especially considering our MSA doesn't include Washington, Mayes, Muskogee or Cherokee Counties - all of which should be in our MSA and if they were we'd have a population of about 1.2 in our MSA.

BTW - Tulsa ranked 32nd in terms of total attendance average per game of 4,730 fans per game (10 home games). OKC ranked 37th with 4,375 fans per game (9 home games). Top ranking non MLS club was Sacramento FC.

Average MLS attendance is about 21,000 per game.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: davideinstein on August 10, 2015, 10:44:34 pm
Who's going to pay the $100M franchise fee?


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: rdj on August 11, 2015, 12:58:12 pm
I think in terms of market size - Tulsa is way under estimated by everyone. It's a quicker drive from Wichita to Tulsa than it is from Wichita to KC. Same with Springfield, MO to Tulsa than to KC or STL. What does that mean?

Well in terms of market capture for an MLS team in Tulsa we are right at the center of 6 million people in a 2 to 2.5 hour drive which is a similar market size to Denver and Portland. More than enough to support an MLS team. MSA is a bad indicator for whether we have enough people to support a team or not, especially considering our MSA doesn't include Washington, Mayes, Muskogee or Cherokee Counties - all of which should be in our MSA and if they were we'd have a population of about 1.2 in our MSA.

BTW - Tulsa ranked 32nd in terms of total attendance average per game of 4,730 fans per game (10 home games). OKC ranked 37th with 4,375 fans per game (9 home games). Top ranking non MLS club was Sacramento FC.

Average MLS attendance is about 21,000 per game.

The problem is those 6 million people are split up into multiple media markets.  That means fragmented advertising.  Hurts us from a large retailer standpoint as well.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Oil Capital on August 11, 2015, 05:53:02 pm
I think in terms of market size - Tulsa is way under estimated by everyone. It's a quicker drive from Wichita to Tulsa than it is from Wichita to KC. Same with Springfield, MO to Tulsa than to KC or STL. What does that mean?

Well in terms of market capture for an MLS team in Tulsa we are right at the center of 6 million people in a 2 to 2.5 hour drive which is a similar market size to Denver and Portland. More than enough to support an MLS team. MSA is a bad indicator for whether we have enough people to support a team or not, especially considering our MSA doesn't include Washington, Mayes, Muskogee or Cherokee Counties - all of which should be in our MSA and if they were we'd have a population of about 1.2 in our MSA.

BTW - Tulsa ranked 32nd in terms of total attendance average per game of 4,730 fans per game (10 home games). OKC ranked 37th with 4,375 fans per game (9 home games). Top ranking non MLS club was Sacramento FC.

Average MLS attendance is about 21,000 per game.

The other problem is... It is not really true, in any meaningful way, to say that it's a quicker drive from either Wichita or Springfield to Tulsa than it is to KC.  Pretty close to the same drive-time in  both cases.  (Google says Springfield to Sporting Park is 2 Hrs, 49 min; Springfield to Tulsa:  2:45.  Wichita to Sporting Park is 2:46; Wichita to Tulsa:  2:35)  I would imagine that tie-breakers and near-tie-breakers are generally going to favor the city with more amenities.  So a market analysis for MLS is probably going to have to assign the Wichita and Springfield markets to KC, not to Tulsa.  (Especially since KC already has an MLS team... There are even Wichita and Springfield supporters groups for Sporting Kansas City)

And, by the way, to get 6 Million people around Tulsa, you have to draw a radius 170 miles out.  The same radius around Portland gathers a population of more than 8 Million.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on August 12, 2015, 08:50:50 pm
Again, the strength of the MLS potential in Tulsa as a state supported team is grossly underestimated.  

Do you think that an MLS franchise in OKC would be more fruitful with an NBA team in their catchment?  Tulsa could take advantage of the strength of Oklahoma's two largest markets.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Tulsa_Skyline_Night.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYwSxq9t_Y6U2-s_9KwHFYiTO93KAxMdco-lmiNuArBp17L4Omfw) (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaxc_E4Fa6pa1cksuAFp8xElSFSJE_CG9E0sVYt_yc0XAdj97v)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIz-X1M__ClT7tEDBa1dsC-YkrkMZZY2lAqepGsP_zUIMHfAsyFQ)(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPMP9v-drVGFPyTk1b1vJySHB7BjHAz9ldlwRVShHt0WxAGqAZ)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpqEzb5u2PL6GStK5QN7cwOpr4SRDVCAcDfvQCuhna2pHJR7kX)

The combined Metropolitan Area Populations (Tulsa & OKC) are 2,305,991
The combined TV market households (Tulsa & OKC) are 1,237,140

Kept hearing these same arguments in Oklahoma City when in 1997; they made application for an NHL franchise.  OKC exceeded NHL expectations when they acquired an NBA franchise.  

MLS expansion fee is at an all time high; there's also relocation.  Every major league has experienced relocation.

MLS Soccer Specific Stadiums today fall in the $ 80-$220 million range to provide all of the revenue stream amenities that franchises in:

          FC Dallas (Frisco), $80 million - 2005 - Capacity 20,500
          Sporting Kansas City (K.C. Kansas), $200 million - 2011 - Capacity 18,467
          Los Angeles Galaxy-Chivas USA (Carson), $150 million - 2003 - Capacity 27,000
          Real Salt Lake (Sandy), $110 million - 2008 - Capacity 20,213  
          Colorado (Commerce City), $131 million - 2007 - 18,061

enjoy because of their competitiveness.

Tulsa has 1 million in its metropolitan area without any major league sports competition within a 100 mile radius (OKC 101 miles).   Besides, the MLS market within a city for drawing finds that a 40-mile radius is where a good majority of the market potential exist.  A state supported franchise in Tulsa would draw some support from the 1.3 million OKC metropolitan area.

An ownership group (expansion or relocation) will cost.   Local and/or state ownership group would insure that investors have 'skin in the game.'

Nielsen TV market households:  http://www.tvb.org/media/file/Nielsen_2014-2015_DMA_Ranks.pdf (http://www.tvb.org/media/file/Nielsen_2014-2015_DMA_Ranks.pdf)

Metropolitan Area Populations:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas)
.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: shavethewhales on August 12, 2015, 10:01:48 pm
I agree that an MLS franchise could work in Tulsa, but as I understand it from the little I've heard OKC has a group that is already sniffing around at that potential. It takes a group with some real backing behind it to get something like this started, and if OKC gets there first I don't think Tulsa has a chance.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: DowntownDan on August 14, 2015, 10:33:39 am
I agree that an MLS franchise could work in Tulsa, but as I understand it from the little I've heard OKC has a group that is already sniffing around at that potential. It takes a group with some real backing behind it to get something like this started, and if OKC gets there first I don't think Tulsa has a chance.

This is my fear.  OKC has been talking about it for a while and I've heard nothing serious here in Tulsa, just idle chatter.  If they're on it and we're not, they'll get it before we're even considered.  I really wish I were rich.  I'd lead the charge.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on August 14, 2015, 08:17:30 pm
Who's going to pay the $100M franchise fee?

MLS is not on the same level as the NBA or the NHL; a $100 million franchise is a modest investment for a league that has shown more promise & potential than the previous NASL of the 80s.

    
     NBA expansion franchise fee $300 million in 2004 (Charlotte Bobcats); NBA predicted to have a $1 billion franchise fee next expansion (2017-2020).
     NHL expansion franchise fee $500 million in 2015
     MLS expansion franchise fee $100 million in 2015


This is my fear.  OKC has been talking about it for a while and I've heard nothing serious here in Tulsa, just idle chatter.  If they're on it and we're not, they'll get it before we're even considered.  I really wish I were rich.  I'd lead the charge.

Tulsa is in a better position to support MLS (potential sports dollars available) than OKC.  It's obvious that the MLS would like to penetrate all the larger 2 million population markets for their next wave of expansion (4 teams); however, there will be expansion following 2020.  An Oklahoma franchise would be great for travel (central U. S.); also, the proximity of existing team (Sporting Kansas City, FC Dallas, Colorado Rapids, Houston Dynamo):

Expansion front runners (2015-2020):  Orlando in, Atlanta, Miami, Minnesota (Minneapolis-St. Paul):
Next wave of expansion (2020-2025):  Sacramento, San Antonio, St. Louis & Indianapolis are in the mix, along with a host of others like.

(http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/pages/images/cms/imce/users/dantec/2014/03/mls-map2.jpg)

MLS appears to go ahead with plans to cherry-pick the NASL as they look at potential markets like Minnesota, San Antonio, Indianapolis & Raleigh.

Tulsa should set its sights on the MLS (top tier soccer) instead of a return to the NASL.  MLS may go into the NASL's prized markets.  As the MLS expands; an MLS relocation or two could be a real possibility.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: davideinstein on August 16, 2015, 06:03:48 pm
You all need to stop using OKC and the Thunder in this discussion. They have two of the best players in the world. Also, no one in Springfield is going to chose a Tulsa MLS club over Sporting. That club is way too established.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: TeeDub on August 17, 2015, 07:56:50 am

While I like the idea of bringing sports to Tulsa, $100 Million franchise fee plus another $100 Million for a stadium seems a little cost prohibitive...

Considering Dallas (which I think we can all agree is a bigger draw than Tulsa) only averages 16,816 fans per game.   In 2003 they played in a high school stadium in 2003 to save money.


With only 18 home games a year, if you could propose a way to use and make the facility cash flow the other 347 days of the year, I could get behind you. 


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: rdj on August 17, 2015, 09:09:53 am
While I like the idea of bringing sports to Tulsa, $100 Million franchise fee plus another $100 Million for a stadium seems a little cost prohibitive...

Considering Dallas (which I think we can all agree is a bigger draw than Tulsa) only averages 16,816 fans per game.   In 2003 they played in a high school stadium in 2003 to save money.


With only 18 home games a year, if you could propose a way to use and make the facility cash flow the other 347 days of the year, I could get behind you. 


If Kaiser sells his stake in the Thunder, which is probably valued at $150-200MM, then he could pay for both the franchise and the stadium.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: sgrizzle on August 17, 2015, 08:41:12 pm
While I like the idea of bringing sports to Tulsa, $100 Million franchise fee plus another $100 Million for a stadium seems a little cost prohibitive...

Considering Dallas (which I think we can all agree is a bigger draw than Tulsa) only averages 16,816 fans per game.   In 2003 they played in a high school stadium in 2003 to save money.


With only 18 home games a year, if you could propose a way to use and make the facility cash flow the other 347 days of the year, I could get behind you. 


MLS
Minor-league soccer
Football games  (like Jenks-Union or college tournaments)
outdoor concerts/center of universe festival
x-games/motocross
bike racing
track/field tournaments
Youth soccer tournaments



Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: TeeDub on August 18, 2015, 12:45:57 pm
MLS
Minor-league soccer
Football games  (like Jenks-Union or college tournaments)
outdoor concerts/center of universe festival
x-games/motocross
bike racing
track/field tournaments
Youth soccer tournaments



I guess I just have a problem with the "if you build it, they will come" budget theory.   Sometimes it doesn't work out very well.   Then again, how do you get commitments on a pie-in-the-sky development?


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on August 27, 2015, 06:57:48 am
If Kaiser sells his stake in the Thunder, which is probably valued at $150-200MM, then he could pay for both the franchise and the stadium.

Kaiser heads a group to support a new phase of the $350 million future addition to the Tulsa river parks.

George Kaiser has the money to invest in an MLS Tulsa franchise if he so chooses.    You won't need GK to fully fund an MLS experience.  Just his stamp of approval along with a modest investment will get the ball rolling.  If Kaiser approves, you'll see more local investors willing to finance.

The exit of the WNBA Shock should free a few more dollars for those who seek sports entertainment.

Tulsa is in a much better position to support an MLS franchise than OKC.  




Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: rdj on August 27, 2015, 09:27:20 am
Um, the exit of the Shock is freeing up just a few dollars, as in a few hundred for the entire city.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on August 27, 2015, 10:44:50 am
Um, the exit of the Shock is freeing up just a few dollars, as in a few hundred for the entire city.

True!

The Shock had corporate sponsorships as well; that's where Tulsa would have an advantage without any major league franchise already in the market.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: davideinstein on August 31, 2015, 10:02:30 pm
According to The Financial Times article, proposed changes have been issued in which to qualify for Division 1, a league would need 16 teams, up from 12 under 2014 rules, per NASL. It would also have to meet a requirement that 75 per cent of its teams be based in cities with a population of more than 2 million people, up from 1 million. It adds that the requirement for all team stadiums is to meet a minimum 15,000 seat capacity for the entire league to qualify for Division I, which NASL argues is “highly unreasonable.”

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/08/31/nasl-pursuing-litigation-against-us-soccer-heres-how-it-might-play-out/ (http://worldsoccertalk.com/2015/08/31/nasl-pursuing-litigation-against-us-soccer-heres-how-it-might-play-out/)


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 01, 2015, 09:35:35 am
Under those standards there are only 31 teams POSSIBLE in the entire United States (and that's using combined statistical area: Orlando to Daytona, for example). With ~20 of those occupied by MLS franchises already. So if you have to have 16 teams in large market areas to have a first division franchise, then only MLS can have first division franchises. Hence... the lawsuit.

Why not go to an English system? The best teams move up, the worst teams get bumped down.

I'm afraid MLS has become such a money driven enterprise smaller markets are no longer an option. Tulsa missed the boat.




Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on October 14, 2015, 08:58:23 am
Under those standards there are only 31 teams POSSIBLE in the entire United States (and that's using combined statistical area: Orlando to Daytona, for example). With ~20 of those occupied by MLS franchises already. So if you have to have 16 teams in large market areas to have a first division franchise, then only MLS can have first division franchises. Hence... the lawsuit.

Why not go to an English system? The best teams move up, the worst teams get bumped down.

I'm afraid MLS has become such a money driven enterprise smaller markets are no longer an option. Tulsa missed the boat.

Wouldn't be so quick to say that Tulsa missed the boat.  

Build an MLS ready soccer specific stadium or one in the 9,000 - 12,000 seat range with expansion capabilities. Tulsa's geography bodes well in addition to the fact that you have a strong soccer community market without any major league franchises to compete for sports dollars in a market that has an estimated metro population of 1 million with another 1.4 million in the OKC market approximately 100 miles away.

Tulsa Roughnecks FC averaged 4,714 for the 2015 inaugural USL regular season with competition against an established NPSL Tulsa Athletics who averaged 3,439 in 2014.

OKC Energy FC averaged 4,635 for the regular season.  Energy FC's last 4 USL home games exceeded 6,000 at Taft Stadium:

          August 29, Austin 2-0 win. Attendance: 6,089
          September 12, Colorado Springs 3-3 tie. Attendance: 6,847
          October 4, Colorado Springs 3-2 playoff win. Attendance: 6,370
          October 11, Los Angeles Galaxy 2-1 playoff lost. Attendance:  7,654 Largest crowd In Energy FC's history.

Source links:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_USL_season (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_USL_season)

http://www1.nmnathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32800&SPID=177208&SPSID=1054410&DB_OEM_ID=32800 (http://www1.nmnathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32800&SPID=177208&SPSID=1054410&DB_OEM_ID=32800)

Oklahoma (Tulsa/OKC) is ripe for MLS soccer;  IMHO Tulsa would be the best market to establish an MLS franchise because it has the sports dollars available to support a league of that caliber.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 14, 2015, 10:42:50 am
I hope I'm wrong. I'd be a big supporter of bringing MLS to Tulsa. I know you know more about this than I do...but I'm just talking through what I've looked up in this regard. Not trying to be disrespectful and I really would appreciate an analysis on why Tulsa should win (other markets saturated, demographics, whatever).

But most MLS team average 20k plus. So all the soccer attendance from Tulsa and Oklahoma City times two just to be "average" within the league (the goal of expanding isn't to hold the average).  With ticket prices average in a wild range from $40 (Chicago) to $130 (Seattle), those fans would have to be willing to invest more. Then there is the investment of a $75mil franchise fee plus a soccer specific stadium at around $120mil (if selected for an expansion team). Plan on losing money for the foreseeable future and you easily have to invest $250mil.  Without some really rich person make getting MLS to Tulsa his pet project...it is a very long shot.

They are expanding to Minneapolis, Atlanta, Miami and another LA team. Markets Tulsa can't touch for either population, appeal, or disposable income.

Others under consideration that have been mentioned by the league are Austin, Sacramento, San Diego, Vegas and a particular interest in San Antonio and St. Louis. Others thrown around are Phoenix, OKC, San Juan (yes, Puerto Rico), Pittsburgh, the research triangle in NC, and Orlando. Rochester NY, Ottawa, Detroit, Cleveland, and El Paso tried and failed to get expansion teams. Unfortunately, Tulsa isn't even in the conversation as far as I can tell.

No major league franchise in the US has ever been successful with more than 32 teams. Assuming that's the cap, only half of the cities mentioned above that are trying to get a franchise will succeed. I hope Tulsa can beat them. But it will be a tough sell.

Hence, an English system that lets Tulsa "play in" to a premier league might be our best bet.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on October 14, 2015, 02:24:05 pm
There are more Oklahoma & Tulsa fans that don't attend the lower level USL games that would fully support an MLS experience.   It's easy to look at this MSL in Tulsa through the minor league scope because that is our experience from which to gauge.

Recall the NBA which got its test run in OKC under the guise of the New Orleans-Oklahoma City Hornets. Many OKC fans doubted if the city would support the NBA with the $45 average ticket price. The early research indicated that the Hornets would draw 12,500 fans per game which was the NBA break-even.  That mark was shattered when the Hornets (current Pelicans) drew 18,168 in 2005-06 &  17,833 in 2006-07.  The Hornets made a profit in OKC.   The Thunder have been profitable since as they average 18,203 with 209 consecutive sellouts (2010-15) at the conclusion of last season:  http://www.nba.com/thunder/video/200thsellout_150323 (http://www.nba.com/thunder/video/200thsellout_150323)

Oklahoma (Pop: 3,751,351/Land: 69,898.19 sq. mi) possesses a larger population than Utah (Pop:  2,763,885/Land: 84,898.83 sq. mi) who also has more land area (less density) than Oklahoma with two metro areas that sandwich the size of Salt Lake City (metro 1,153,340), Tulsa (965,974) & OKC (1,336,767).  SLC with similar demographics as Tulsa support:

          NBA:  Utah Jazz (SLC) Energy Solutions Arena capacity 19,911 average attendance 18,830 (2015)
          MLS:  Real Salt Lake  (Sandy, Utah) Stadium capacity Rio Tinto 20,213  average attendance 20,224 (2015)

Source Links:

MSA Populations:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas) 
State Populations:  http://www.ipl.org/div/stateknow/popchart.html#statesbypop (http://www.ipl.org/div/stateknow/popchart.html#statesbypop)
NBA - http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2015 (http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2015)
MLS stadiums - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Soccer_stadiums (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Soccer_stadiums)
MLS 2015 attendance - http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/mls-attendance-2015/ (http://soccerstadiumdigest.com/mls-attendance-2015/)


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 14, 2015, 03:00:31 pm
Great points. I never really considered the Thunder example - more people will pay more to support major league sports. Also, if OKC would get behind our bid (and put in a train!!!!) we would have a much better shot. Tons of people from Tulsa support the Thunder.

And SLC is a good example. Our MSA is nearly identical (965K  people) but they cover 9500 miles and Tulsa only covers 6300 square miles. WE have the edge on that.

They have 2.4mil in the CSA, of which 85+% is within 60 miles (Provo area [500k+] and Ogden area (500K+) make up most of it. The overall area is large, but most of the people actually live within an hour of downtown SLC. Call it 2mil+. Tulsa and Oklahoma City count as separate media markets, Salt Lake City sucks all that population into one.

If we include OKC, we top that number away. But we have to expand the area to ~125 miles to make that happen. And while we strongly supported OKCs bid for the Thunder (our mayor even made trips for it, and we still got screwed) I don't see OKC doing the same for Tulsa. Frankly, they'd rather have the MLS team. I serious doubt they would help our bid or, at best, we'd end up with the Oklahoma Whatever (and everyone would assume it was in OKC).

Finally, Utah has more middle class people that Oklahoma. The average household makes 25% more than the average Oklahoman household and we have 50% more people below the poverty line. Its all about the dollars.

I understand your perspective, and again, I hope you're right. I don't know exactly the numbers they are looking for. But based on the cities that are getting expansion teams and the cities they are talking too - I'm not hopeful.

Thanks for the discussion.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: Laramie on October 14, 2015, 08:38:35 pm
Some of the more popular cities the MLS have on their radar are oversaturated markets which would be more risker than putting a team in a virgin market like Tulsa.

Oklahoma City fans supported the Roughnecks in the late 70s & early 80s.  It was the USFL football league that brought both sports down.  

OKC has  about an estimated 2,000 Dallas Cowboys regulars who drive to the Metroplex to support the NFL.

True, Utah has a great base of disposal income; however, if they can support the NBA & the MLS; then, the MLS (one sport) should be an easy sell in a market like Tulsa which has about $2,000 more per capita income than OKC.  If your concern is the name 'Tulsa' vs. Oklahoma 'whatever' then, Tulsa should follow OKC's playbook when they put their arena on MAPS I; stress that if a team is obtained by expansion or relocation that it bears the city's name.  Vision 2025 is set to expire soon, it could be a vehicle by which you get some kind of stadium financed.

My point; Tulsa is a market that is ripe.  If you provide more entertainment for the area; the quality of life aspect will grow.  The Tulsa area has made a number of investments in the last 10 years with more on the horizon.


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: TeeDub on October 15, 2015, 08:29:55 am
First, let me state that I am not a soccer fan, nor do I pretend to understand the excitement of watching a game where only the refs know how much time is really left and scores so little.

That being said, if some money were set aside (say $10-15M) on the Vision 2025 ballot for a stadium in which MLS could be played/concerts/etc, contingent on getting a soccer team franchise without any other public money....    I could get behind that.

Could the stadium go just north of I-244 in the flight path of the Tulsa airport?  


Title: Re: MLS in Tulsa?
Post by: TulsaRufnex on October 29, 2015, 10:37:50 pm
Less than 30 minutes left on a Throwback Thursday... 36 years ago today....

(http://www.nasljerseys.com/images/Roughnecks/1979-10-29%20Roughnecks-Lincoln%20City_small.jpg)(http://www.nasljerseys.com/images/Roughnecks/1979-10-29%20Roughnecks-Lincoln%20City%20Lineup_small.jpg)