The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

So what about Obama now? What about his legacy as President as he nears the end.

He stopped us from sinking into a Great Depression and has pulled us out of the worst recession of the last 80 years. In doing so he has created nearly 12 million jobs to date, which is more than any Republican president in history except Reagan and at the current job growth rate he’s going to pass Reagan by the middle of next year. He may even eventually pass Roosevelt in job creation ending up only behind Clinton.

He has  enacted and fought hard for the most important social program since the Great Society 50 years ago. Many presidents of both parties over the last 100 years have tried to end the United States being the only developed nation without National Healthcare, Obama got it done.

Obama got out of two really bad pointless wars. He presided over the finding and killing of Osama Bin Laden and has not allowed any large scale terrorist attacks inside the United States.

He has reopened relations with Cuba and is on the verge of a historic deal to stop Iran’s nuclear program and reopen relations with them.

Lastly, while President and with the help of two of his appointees, The Supreme Court has now expanded civil rights to millions of gay Americans. And make no mistake, the order didn’t just end bans on gay marriage, it ended all legal discrimination against gays. Being gay is now covered under the 14th Amendment.

No matter if you agree with what he has done or not, it’s  going to be a towering legacy, larger than Bill Clinton’s and for good or bad depending on your perspective, right there with Reagan, Roosevelt and Johnson.

Obama supporters are nodding their heads with what you posted.

The folks who do not support Obama are going to deny any of that was due to Obama.

His legacy will depend on who believes what.  Fact or not...we are in the time of clouded knowledge.

Beat me to it.  Sometimes too much information muddies up the thought process.   It will take a decade or so to even begin to have a rational discussion on Obama's legacy. 

Swake, I SO agree with what you posted except for the fact that we don't have national healthcare. That was what Pres. Obama had ran on, but couldn't quite pull it off because of all of the money pouring into the tea partier's pockets who tried to block every part of that bill, later saying it was all done behind closed doors. Funny that someone like me was able to follow it from start to finish and the highly educated, intelligent, wealthy politicians weren't capable of doing the same.

It doesn't really matter that all of those things are true. There will always be those who see things differently and there will also be those who are haters, racists, etc. I always have to chuckle when I read things blaming Pres. Obama for the high unemployment rate, the housing crisis, the near collapse of the stock market and large companies, and yet don't give him credit now that things have improved. It doesn't really matter what they think because it's obvious they don't remember the timeline of Presidents since Pres. G.W. was in office when the country nearly fell on it's face. I don't disrespect any president, but Pres. Obama has my highest respect for all that he's tolerated and was still able to do so much good for our country!

Greatest President in American history in my opinion.

How old are you....17....???

Best one since I first voted in 1972...and I didn't vote for Nixon...(and I'm over 17)... 8)

I disagree with your opinion.

He is not at terrible as some would have us believe but greatest, no way.

Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Lincoln, the two Roosevelts…..   

Lol....

He isn't Christ and he isn't Hitler. Though opinions paint him as both.

He didn't take our guns... Even though people still insist he's trying.
He didn't sell us to be he New World Order or put us under UN control.
He didn't take wealth from the rich, in fact - the rich have done way better under Obama than Bush.
He didn't collapse the military.
His pending didn't expand the deficit (legacy spending sure as hell did).

He was in the White House during an economic recovery that still leads the world.l out of recession (debate is roll all you want, but then debate the same for Reagan).
He did end two disastrous wars (countries remain in chaos, but...)
He was the man in the office when the mission to kill Osama was actually accomplished.
Terror attacks in the US remain neutral under his watch.
The rights of Americans have been expanded (not his doing, but it happened)
The health of Americans have been statistically improved.
The world opinion of America has gone from a historic low point back into favorable.
Most American households are better off now, economically, than when he took office.
He has done more for free trade than nearly any other President.


But...
He has not dramatically increased government transparency.
Has not labeled the Armenian killings a genocide (I understand why, politically Turkey > Armenia, but he said he would).
He has not cleared out Gitmo (like Bush towards the end, I'm sure he tried... But didn't do it).
He has continued executing American citizens abroad deemed a threat, without trial (which he knows is unconstitutional).
He has not altered the dynamic of a shrinking middle class and growing lower class.
He has not increased education in the US.
But he also doesn't have many serious gaffs (caught sleeping with the help, starting unwinnable wars on dubious pretenses, etc.)

Overall, he gets a B+ from me. Maybe because my expectations of a politician are low?

He still has time to shine, or to really mess it up...

What do you view as key points or initiatives the executive or legislative branches could address to expand the middle class and shrink the lower class?  Is it really an actionable item or just a campaign slogan?  My opinion is, you can take away incentives to non-productive lifestyle: shorten UE benefit periods, tighten up what qualifies for “disability”, tighter restrictions on welfare, etc.  and plough those into more and better advanced educational benefits (i.e. cheap or free college/tech tuition or grants).

Has free trade done much to benefit the American middle class?  It doesn’t seem to have helped any from what I can see.

I honestly see no way in which government can improve educational outcome as with every costly initiative, it does not appear we’ve managed to improve the outcome over the last half century.  Maybe the initiatives tried already are too closely tied to special interests.

I am a firm believer that successful education starts in the home with some exceptions where the homogeneous educational process employed by most public schools simply does not reach some students who need to find other stimuli to allow them to thrive. (I think you and I know a young man like this).

Some presidents have the luck to be at the helm near the end of a recession (Reagan, Obama, Bush II first term) or with an explosion in new technology (Clinton) to preside over an upswing and natural new job creation- regardless of their policies.  We are still 20-30 years from being able to fully digest how good or how poor this president has performed.

I give this admin mostly failing marks in terms of racial relations/tensions.  I believe we are worse off than we were a decade ago along those terms.  I realize much of that has been ginned up by the media, but I’ve not seen much from the president to help diffuse situations when they have come up.  If anything, the DOJ, under Eric Holder made matters worse.

Carter was a better Prez and that ain't sayin much.....

I'm mostly in agreement with Cannon Fodder regarding the Obama administration, but I'd add "he didn't prosecute Cheney, Wolfowitz, Pearle, and Rumsfeld for getting us into a war on false pretenses" but I'm not sure if it should go on the plus or the minus side.

Don't forget torture for that group.  Not only did they start an immoral war, they condoned, authorized, and continue to justify war crimes.  By definition.

We spent years, much money, and maintained a dogged determination to capture Japanese after WWII who did waterboarding.  Tried them for war crimes and proceeded to hang them. 

All long term things, all things we did in the 1950s. Improve funding for infrastructure, research, and education to start with.  For education, I don't just mean college, I mean all SKILLS that lead to promising and needed careers. An electrician, welder, mechanic, carpenter, or machine operator can make a fine living. An unskilled hammer man or punch press button pusher struggles. This isn't a popular notion because it isn't a quick fix, no progress will be made in one term.

Don't shift additional tax burden onto the middle class. Sales taxes punish those who spend most of their money. The bottom 50% of Americans spend most, if not all of their earnings just to keep afloat - their effective tax rate therefore suffers. Many tax exemptions do little for the economy (mortgage deduction set up to encourage the purchase of the largest McMansions you can afford, corporate welfare, etc.). Many investment tax schemes make little sense; the secondary stock market does almost nothing for the actual economy - yet a low capital gains tax indicates speculating on the secondary market is more important to the economy than actually working (I'm not against the stock market in any way).  A tax overhaul is needed, and all tax policy should be set with sunset provisions.

For example: a family with 2.58 kids making $50k a year lives a decent life, but doesn't exactly have extra money sloshing around. What they have, they are plowing immediately back into the economy and/or trying to scrap together a rainy day fund. Its unpopular, but those that make more can afford to pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes. The highest income earners pay 18% effective tax rate (at all levels). The US National Average is 26% (which is among the lowest in the developed world, I do't think there is a country with a higher standard of living and a lower tax rate). Conservatives hate this idea because it means people need to pay more in taxes. Liberals hate this idea because it means people other than "1%ers" are in that group (professors, attorneys, doctors, well paid government bureaucrats).

Yes, cutting taxes would be best. But we aren't going to do that: the military is a sacred conservative cow, even though we spend as much as China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, and Iran combined times 3, it isn't going to be significantly cut. Social Security and Medicare won't be cut by anyone. Liberals won't let medicaid be cut. Clearly we won't stop paying interest. And everything else is chicken feed (20% combined).  I'm all for reallocating money, but "cutting" our way of a hole hasn't ever worked.

Income disparity isn't a talking point. It is an existential threat to democracy. 10% of wage earners make 50% of the income. In 1974, the top 0.1% of families controlled 7% of the wealth in the United States. Today they control 22% of all wealth in the country. The bottom 90% of families control 20% of all wealth (less than the top 0.1% combined). Poor people depend on the government more than middle class people, that starts a bad spiral. Poor people consume less: they buy less manufactured goods, they start fewer businesses, they retain fewer attorneys, etc. etc. etc. Wealth concentration is a cancer that leads to great episodes of "lifestyles of the rich and famous" but ends badly for societies.

But the solution isn't simple, it isn't quick, and it sure as hell isn't taking money directly from affluent people and transferring it to poor people (that's the other extreme, it also ends badly for society). The solution is funding programs that enable people to achieve on their own. We did it in the 1950s and resulted in broad based prosperity that began declining in the 1980s. The realistic solutions are unpopular for both sides - so we will likely just keep whining about it.


Largely agree with you. Bring UE benefits back to their recessionary levels - and set up a phase out system instead of a cut-off system (if you work, you get less of your benefits... but you are better off with some benefits and working. Otherwise you set up a perverse situation where you are working for an extra 25 cents an hour over your benefit rate. Human nature often says that's not worth it).

"Welfare" is a bit of a misnomer, most "welfare" spending is on medicaid for disabled people, elderly (but no Medicare eligible), and children of lower income people. The next largest chunk is in WIC (great program) and "food stamps" (not called that anymore) - I would reform food stamps to be more like WIC - sorry, no redbull or doritos on government doll. Moving down we spend money on the earned income tax credit (great program from an economic perspective), child care credit and dependent credit (those mostly benefit wealthier people).  Overall, the package is fairly effective and has ~8% fraud rate (mostly in companies billing medicaid for services not rendered and for affluent people claiming benefits they are not eligible for). BUT - I would make the same change to "welfare" systems that I would make to UE benefits; put in a phase out so you are better off working. You are better off working and receiving partial benefits as opposed to replacing benefits with work. Then a person gets a raise, a promotion, and eventually gets weened off benefits.

I'm sure there are programs/areas that more money can be saved. But overall, the US "welfare" system is a fairly effective economic and social engine. It is an easy target and making it better would take actual work from politicians (drug test them all! Oh, wait, what? We caught less than 1% of recipients and spent way more than we saved?  Keep doing it!). Our main obsticle, on both sides, is an unwillingness to look at what actually works because of pure politics (its a handout to lazy scam artists! v. they all are "entitled" to it!).



Yes. Economic theory says that each party is better off at the conclusion of a bargained for exchange. I could write a dissertation, but in short: American labor has become more and more efficient since entering WWII. We are no longer good at "unskilled" tasks (from an economic perspective, good essentially means cost effective). We are good at skilled tasks: advanced manufacturing, conceptualizing, design, engineering, marketing, logistics, finance. The iPhone is a great example - we thought of it, designed it, engineered it, figure out how to build it, did all the logistics to get parts from all over the world to a crap-hole in China, sell it, and reep the profits. China assembles it - the "value added" in China is a scant $8. The USA makes hundreds off of each iPhone. (there are entire scholarly articles written on the topic, as well as its perverse effect on the trade gap)

The high-pay low skill manufacturing jobs aren't ever coming back. The days where you can make $70k a year putting bolts into a frame on an assembly line died when you could lease a robot for $35k a year to do the same job.  But manufacturing that requires more precision or skill, non-repetitive tasks, or intellectual ability are in high demand.  There's a reason John Deere moved their foundry to, and then back from Mexico (quality). There is a reason the US can't find enough welders (many welding tasks are non-repetitive). There's a reason we need more engineers.

Asia has cheap labor to sell. We have things we want built with cheap labor. Asia has low-skill manufacturing goods they want to sell us. We have high-skill items and services we want to sell them. In theory, both sides win. That includes the American consumer. (I'm not making a personal argument for outsourcing, I'm making an economics argument for why free-trade benefits everyone)



Truth. Nothing is a substitute to a family and culture that values education. There is a reason that Asian have a stereotype as being smart, many Asian cultures value education.

But, there are proven methods that do result in better educational achievement. Smaller class sizes. Long school terms (less summer break). Better teaching methods (lecturing to a class is not an effective teaching method, it is just a method of passing on information for the student to later learn). Also, making the school a place kids want to go is conducive to learning: sports programs, music/art programs, better facilities. All of these things have been proven to increase learning, regardless of what's going on at home (the kid with supportive home life will almost always do better, but these things improve everyones achievement).

These things all cost money. This ties in directly with two of the three talking points above: improving the middle class and welfare. You want kids to not be criminals and to climb off the government doll? Educate them. Educate them to the best of our ability in spite of their home life. The alternative is cyclical poverty but-for a select few kids who can break the cycle. Statistically, that's very rare. So I'm not asking you to do this for the "child left behind," it can be pure selfishness. We are all better off if we break the cycle.



Again, very true. Historians can still debate if Lincoln was the great savior of the Union, or if he was a tyrant who set aside the Constitution to achieve his personal goals. Was Reagan a great hero reestablishing capitalism and squashing the communists, or a villain starting the decline of the middle class and bankrupting the country for future generations? We are entirely unable to view history accurately while in its midst, but future perceptions are often influenced by contemporary commentary.


I didn't consider race relations. I'd say he has had minimal impact on race relations. Personally, I think race relations are about the same they were a decade ago, or two decades ago. The angst and disparity is much more visible recently, but I don't think that's a reflection of race relations deteriorating. I think it is merely a reflection of incidents taking places that shed light on the situation (more documentation of police situations, rebel flag debate, etc.).  Perhaps having a black guy in the White House was a catalyst for some of that, when the feeling of achievement for the entire community wore off, they found that nothing changed as they had hoped (being in a group that historically underachieves is one thing, having that pointed out to you and/or coming to that realization is another). 

I'm no expert on race relations, so I'm pretty well just making cap up on this one.

Great points all, thank you for expanding!

One thing which really would not involve huge costs is changing from a lecture style to an interactive approach.  I think we’d be amazed at the outcomes if public schools all utilized an approach similar to the Montessori method.  I’m not saying that’s the “be-all end-all” in education, but there’s good science to support kinesthetic or interactive learning.

I suffered in algebra, chemistry, and physics.  I’ve got some sort of learning disability that simply blurs the equations in the book or on the board.  When I was in the process of earning my pilot’s license or seeing the effects of adjusting cross-weight or ride height on a race car- physics suddenly made total sense.  When I worked in the marketing side of the chemical industry, I no longer had to worry about which way the electrons were spinning- all I had to do was explain to the client or perspective client what the compounds would do.  I understand algebra better than ever now because I utilize it in the real world every day.  As a classroom theory for a 14, 15, & 16 year old (Yes, it took me three tries- actually 2 1/2 but story for another day) it was complete nonsense until I found a tutor who could interact with me and make it seem more applied than theoretical.

My daughters really thrived under Montessori.  They found public school largely uninspiring after Montessori, but they did manage to thrive, in large part, to the support they had at home as well as the inquisitive nature Montessori instilled in them. 

Mixing it up is good.  There must be variety to keep the interest.  And your point of algebra is right on - everyone I have ever known has trouble grasping a topic without seeing a correlation to something they can or do use!  Seems to be a human thing....  The teacher that brought it all together for me was 7th grade, Mrs. Cuffel, Eli Whitney Junior High.  There is a picture of her on page 7 of the 1968 Inventor yearbook (after I was gone, but she was still there.)  She showed us the connections to the rest of the world.

Wow!  Amazing how something as small as that can lead down a 'rabbit hole'.  Ending up at the Savoy Restaurant that was SOOO good when I was in high school (downtown), and still is good home cooking, last time I was in a few years ago.  Wish I could get there more often!  But I diverge...off to electron city!!


As for electrons, well they usually are spinning at an obtuse angle (> 90 but < than 180 degrees), oriented slightly northwest to southwest, with about a 14 degree cant to the back. 

Hey, you're just a tad older then I am. I was blessed enough to know the first candidate that you voted for since he spent part of his life in my area of the country. I wasn't paying much attention to politics in 1972, but I can tell you that he was a very caring and compassionate person and I've often wondered what would be different in this country if the election would've turned out differently.

We as a whole are not that caring and compassionate a country.  We are expedient.  

There is no country in the history of the planet that has done as much cumulative good for the world as we have.  And there is no country in the history of the planet that has done as much cumulative bad for (to?) the world as we have.  It seems to swing to whichever side is most expedient at the time.  Follow the money and you will never go to far astray.  Always.