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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: Vashta Nerada on May 23, 2015, 05:21:01 pm



Title: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 23, 2015, 05:21:01 pm
“They wanted to arrest everyone that they could as a crowd control measure,” said former Travis County prosecutor Mindy Montford. “I’m sure it is advantageous for law enforcement, but I’m not sure that is the right thing to do.”
http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/experts-question-high-bails-in-waco-shooting-after/nmL2S/

The words from this prosecutor expressing dismay at the $1 Million bonds set for each person swooped up in the mass arrest, may also describe the shoot-first-ask-questions-later mindset of the SWAT team when they opened fire on the crowded steak house.

 
(http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-9879-07-23-18b0omi.png)
(http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-3514-09-20-12hpraq.png)
(http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-849555-galleryV9-qubc.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/18/07/28CE573200000578-3085546-image-a-7_1431929410255.jpg)











Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 24, 2015, 04:51:14 pm
Waco spokesman spars with CNN over info that cops killed bikers.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/20/waco-police-blast-cnn-for-spreading-information-that-may-have-been-incorrect/


“According to a law enforcement source, preliminary information indicates that four of the bikers killed were killed by police gunfire,” CNN wrote in their article.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/18/us/texas-biker-gang-brawl-shooting/index.html

After Waco Police Sergeant Patrick Swanton blasted media for their lack of cooperation, CNN host Ashleigh Banfield challenged Swanton on his rebuke.

“I heard you earlier calling out the TV network, saying that four of those who were killed were killed by police gunfire and you were quite clear in suggesting those autopsies aren’t done yet and that that can’t be finalized detail,” said Banfield. “That’s preliminary information that actually a law enforcement source gave to CNN that four of these people — but I want to make sure. And by the way, we double-checked it. Once you finished your news conference, we went back to that law enforcement source and that source is standing by that prelim information suggesting that four of those people were killed possibly in a hail of police bullets.”

Swanton lashed out: "What it’s important that you understand is that’s not fact. What you’ll get from the source that’s releasing information, which is Waco police and Texas [Department of Public Safety], is fact. Is there a possibility that more were killed by police? Yes there is. Is there a possibility that less were killed by police? Yes there is. It’s not fact, and that’s what you’re going to get from us.”


...but Swanton's and the DPS "facts" are themselves being shot full of holes, like this memo "leaked" to stir cops into a frenzy:

WACO, Texas (CNN) — Texas law enforcement officials are investigating what they say are new threats against officers from biker gangs in the wake of a recent shootout in Waco.

Members of the Bandidos biker gang who are in the military “are supplying the gang with grenades and C4 explosives,” according to a bulletin issued Thursday by the Texas Department of Public Safety and reviewed by CNN.

The bulletin warns of plots targeting high-ranking law enforcement officials and their families with car bombs. The bulletin is based on unsubstantiated information from an informant who claimed to have obtained it from Bandidos and Black Widows motorcycle gang members.



The memo may be real, but the threat -- and the "gang" police say made it -- are pure fiction:

[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAoRNSoliA[/youtube]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Which_Way_but_Loose_%28film%29


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 24, 2015, 05:06:19 pm

Every patch I saw....Bandidos, Mongols, Cossacks, etc... are 1%'ers.  You do understand what the means, don't you?

CMA was not represented there.  (Christian Motorcycle Association)

Having said that, it is a very strange set of circumstances where someone got their foot rolled over so started a riot...?  There is still more to this story.  And very real civil rights issues...


I regret to say that the CMA was among about a dozen groups at the meeting to discuss upcoming legislation.  Hope you didn't have any friends caught up in this.



Quote
Other clubs that belong to the umbrella group include the Christian Motorcycle Association, Bikers Against Child Abuse, Legacy Vets and Vise Grip, a club that builds and rides pre-1970 custom Harley choppers.
"Most of the clubs that were present there had nothing to do with the shootings," she said. "They didn't do anything but go to a meeting."

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/05/23/51924/they-re-not-gang-members-bikers-protest-mass-arres/ 



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Jammie on May 25, 2015, 09:14:27 am
Have you ever watched COPS? There is one state where police brutality is evident even when they know they're being taped. Can you imagine the things they feel free to do when they think no one is watching? This story actually doesn't surprise me.

Brietbart~I had an internet friend who thought the things they said were Gospel. It's funny that they would report on another media source possibly not having all of the info correct.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on May 25, 2015, 01:52:49 pm

Brietbart~I had an internet friend who thought the things they said were Gospel. It's funny that they would report on another media source possibly not having all of the info correct.

Brietbart is pretty far right, so its a surprise they arent giving Waco PD a pass on this (like the liberal bastion CNN did).  Maybe it was too over the top for "smaller government" advocates.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 25, 2015, 09:52:59 pm
Have you ever watched COPS? There is one state where police brutality is evident even when they know they're being taped. Can you imagine the things they feel free to do when they think no one is watching? This story actually doesn't surprise me.

Brietbart~I had an internet friend who thought the things they said were Gospel. It's funny that they would report on another media source possibly not having all of the info correct.



Waco PD Put Everyone in ‘Harms Way,’ Not the Bikers
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/24/twin-peaks-biker-waco-pd-put-everyone-in-harms-way-not-the-bikers/

The biker’s account is that the altercation became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. He said when one of the bikers in the fray pulled a gun, the SWAT team opened fire with automatic weapons. He claims that multiple sources told The Aging Rebel that all of the nine dead were killed by police.

On Wednesday after the shootout, Waco police released information that “1,000 weapons” had been found at the scene of Sunday’s shooting. After the story received wide exposure, the police department significantly revised that estimate and stated, “We stand corrected.” Waco PD later reported they had counted 118 handguns, one AK-47 rifle, and 157 knives. In addition, four of the nine dead had no criminal records in Texas.

Breitbart Texas reported that one of the dead bikers was a 65-year-old Vietnam veteran who had received a Purple Heart and had no prior criminal record.




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 30, 2015, 05:28:30 pm
The lawsuits begin.



Lawsuit claims police fired "thousands of rounds" during Waco shootout
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/wacotrib.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/eb/8eb01748-fffd-11e4-a4eb-83f98935a085/555e497a47bc9.pdf.pdf


Stuck behind bars: Families await biker releases as lawyers claim innocence
http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/stuck-behind-bars-families-await-biker-releases-as-lawyers-claim/article_63f9bff8-acff-5af9-8c45-ac34254aa123.html


Attorney seeks to replace judges, demands immediate release of clients
http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/biker-attorney-seeks-to-replace-judges-demands-immediate-release-of/article_25fcfaf1-0ad7-51fb-9993-1620f6630db6.html

Austin attorney Adam Reposa alleges in motions filed Tuesday that the charging documents filed against his clients, and the 168 others jailed in the chaotic melee, are legally insufficient.
After the shootout, in which nine were killed and 18 wounded, Reposa said officials “commandeered” the Waco Convention Center as a makeshift holding area while they tried to sort out the magnitude of the event.

But officials failed to call in judges, whom he said could have magistrated the bikers, gotten a sense of how many merely were in the wrong place at the wrong time and “helped provide adequate due process,” Reposa charges.

In seeking to dismiss the charges against his clients, Reposa alleges the identical arrest warrant affidavits filed in all 170 cases fail to allege the elements of an engaging in organized criminal activity case, paints all defendants with an overly broad brush and rely on nothing more than “guilt by association.”.




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Jammie on May 31, 2015, 07:20:39 am
Brietbart is pretty far right, so its a surprise they arent giving Waco PD a pass on this (like the liberal bastion CNN did).  Maybe it was too over the top for "smaller government" advocates.


You're right. Actually, Breitbart is so far to the right that you can't rely on their reporting.

I watch CNN because I like a lot of the stories they air. (Examples are~The Hunt with John Walsh, Forensic Files,  the upcoming show on the 70s, etc.) I've often read that they are very liberal, but their reports seem to be pretty in line with the three major networks so I'm not sure that's true.

How interesting about the 65 year old vet! It makes you wonder how many others involved have never had problems in the past. We get a lot of bikers up this way and some are pretty rough/mean looking and once you start talking to them, you may discover they're actually businessmen, doctors, etc. They just like to dress the part, grow beards, and play biker a couple weeks a year.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on June 03, 2015, 11:07:17 am

How interesting about the 65 year old vet! It makes you wonder how many others involved have never had problems in the past. We get a lot of bikers up this way and some are pretty rough/mean looking and once you start talking to them, you may discover they're actually businessmen, doctors, etc. They just like to dress the part, grow beards, and play biker a couple weeks a year.


Im thinking Waco is going to be sued into bankruptcy.   Where is the ACLU in all this?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 03, 2015, 02:35:09 pm
I regret to say that the CMA was among about a dozen groups at the meeting to discuss upcoming legislation.  Hope you didn't have any friends caught up in this.






Probably an artifact of the coverage...in all the vid's I saw there were no CMA. 

Nope, no friends in that mess!  I don't have friends!  I don't ride with a club or association - used to go with ABATE, but don't now - am not a "joiner".  Closest I get is working with Salvation Army when I get a chance.





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 03, 2015, 02:36:58 pm
Have you ever watched COPS? There is one state where police brutality is evident even when they know they're being taped. Can you imagine the things they feel free to do when they think no one is watching? This story actually doesn't surprise me.

Brietbart~I had an internet friend who thought the things they said were Gospel. It's funny that they would report on another media source possibly not having all of the info correct.


I have been to Dallas quite a bit in the past - have watched DPD in action on many occasions.  Glad I wasn't involved, so still have all my teeth....



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 05, 2015, 06:51:12 pm
EXCLUSIVE: First Interview With Bikers Involved in Twin Peaks Shooting
http://www.kcentv.com/story/29213297/exclusive-first-interview-with-bikers-involved-in-twin-peaks-shooting

WACO -- KCEN got an exclusive interview with the first bikers to speak publicly after the Twin Peaks shooting, capturing the moments right after their release from jail after being arrested for the May 17th shooting that left nine bikers dead and 18 more injured.

Waco Police had said the 170-plus bikers arrested were part of criminal motorcycle gangs. However, William English, 33, and Morgan English, 30, say otherwise, and that they had come to the sports bar for a friendly meeting between motorcycle clubs, and they weren't even inside the restaurant when the brawl broke out.

The husband and wife from Brenham who celebrate their four year anniversary in September, have never spent more than a few days apart, but were forced to spend 16 of them away from each other, and away from the world.
"He's my rock, he's my everything and not having him there was so hard," said Morgan English, suspect and biker wife arrested in the Twin Peaks shooting.
Strength is the only good thing the English's say has come out of their time in jail.

"This whole thing is a sham," said William English, suspect and member of the Distorted Motorcycle Club. "I'm kind of upset that we had to pay to get out of jail when we did nothing wrong."
Mr. English said he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. English said he came to twin peaks on that Sunday afternoon for a monthly meeting of the Confederation of Clubs to talk about legislation coming out of Austin for Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month, but he didn't make that meeting before violence did.
"We didn't even get to where we could see around the corner of the building when firing started," said Mr. English. "We heard 2-3 distinct small arm fires, and we took off around to the back side of the building and after that I started hearing rapid succession of assault rifle fire."

"All the sudden I see a sea of people running towards me and we run around the building," said Ms. English.
The couple says they never saw the melee, they were just trying to keep stay away from it. Mr. English is a former marine.
"He grabs me and pins me up against the wall. He just had me completely shielded and protected," said Ms. English.
"I was trying to hear where the shooters were so we didn't run into the gunfire," said Mr. English.
After it calmed down, law enforcement stepped in.
"There was someone just a couple guys down from me shot in the stomach and we're worried about him but the cops kept saying get down, get down," aid Ms. English. "You have all these guns in your face, you're gonna listen."

Next came the body search: being one of the few females arrested, Morgan says this was one of the worst parts.
"It was just violating having to be searched in front of all these men," said Ms. English.
She said her and her husband had no weapons except a pocket knife and a vest ornament considered a chain.
"That was one of the 300-some weapons right there," said Mr. English.


http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/01/waco-twin-peaks-shootings-two-weeks-later-more-questions-than-answers/









Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 06, 2015, 05:46:52 pm
I have been to Dallas quite a bit in the past - have watched DPD in action on many occasions.  Glad I wasn't involved, so still have all my teeth....




Witnesses: Texas biker shootout dominated by sound of semi-automatic gunfire
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/06/witnesses-texas-biker-shootout-dominated-by-sound-semi-automatic-gunfire

WACO, Texas –  First came a few pistol shots, several witnesses said, then a barrage of rifle fire during the shootout last month at a Waco restaurant favored by bikers. But authorities still have not said how many of the dead and wounded were the result of police fire.

Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a registered owners locked car after the shooting ended. But several witnesses — at least three of them veterans with weapons training — told The Associated Press that semi-automatic gunfire dominated the May 17 shootout that left nine dead and 18 wounded.

"I heard, 'pop, pop,' small caliber, and then a rapid succession of shots from what sounded to me like an assault rifle," said William English, a former Marine and Iraq war veteran who was approaching the front door of the Twin Peaks restaurant for a meeting of biker clubs.

It's remains unclear exactly what triggered the gunfight. More than 100 of the 170 people arrested, mostly bikers and family and friends, are still in custody and cannot give their accounts. Six witnesses interviewed by the AP describe a melee that began with a few pistol shots but was dominated by semi-automatic gunfire.

Waco police have declined to release detailed reports from that day and say they are still awaiting ballistic reports.

Steve Cochran, a Navy veteran and member of the Sons of the South club, pulled into the parking lot facing the patio minutes before the shooting began. He was to help set up for the meeting of the Confederation of Clubs and Independents, a group that advocates for biker rights and motorcycle safety.

"I heard one pistol shot. All the rest of the shots I heard were assault rifles," said Cochran, who took cover behind a crane about 30 yards away. He walked the shooting scene with the AP several days later, showing what he saw and his vantage point.

Cochran said he heard suppressed rounds fired by assault weapons, which are still audible but sound different than a handgun firing.

Police have said 18 officers, four state troopers and more than 200 bikers were at Twin Peaks at the time. Video viewed by the AP indicated that the fight began outside, where the SWAT team was positioned.







Two weeks after the fight between rival outlaw motorcycle clubs, cops won’t answer even the most basic questions about what transpired.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/what-waco-police-wont-reveal-about-the-shootout-that-killed-9/394892

 “Despite police reports that the fighting and shooting began inside the restaurant and spilled out, closed-circuit footage of the restaurant seen by AP and reports from the restaurateurs indicate the shooting began outside, which is where the police already were.”

“Police were already surrounding the restaurant in force, ready for action. How and why they began firing on the bikers and what happened before then should not necessarily be trusted merely from their mouths.”




Because the local Police, who immediately reviewed the footage yet continued to mislead the public about the impetus of the confrontation and gunfire, the owner/operator of the Twin Peaks franchise shared video with reporters from the Associated Press.
The video suggests that Sunday’s deadly gunfight began outside the Twin Peaks restaurant, except for one round fired by a biker on the patio who then ran inside.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/20/breaking-cctv-video-of-twin-peakswaco-shooting-shared-with-ap-reporters-gunfire-began-outside-bikers-running-for-cover-police-entered-restaurant-with-assault-rifles



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on June 07, 2015, 01:30:19 pm
I would be among the first to argue against excessive civil awards, but I sincerely believe those who were peaceful bystanders that got swooped up in the Waco dragnet, and held on $1 Million bonds (essentially denying them bond) should sue for that same $1 Million.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 07, 2015, 04:58:48 pm
Quote
Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a registered owners locked car after the shooting ended.


Caught by the media:
(http://images.lpcdn.ca/924x615/201505/21/1011656-enqueteurs-tentent-toujours-comprendre-enchainement.jpg)


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 08, 2015, 09:56:59 pm
Quote

She said her and her husband had no weapons except a pocket knife and a vest ornament considered a chain.
"That was one of the 300-some weapons right there," said Mr. English.[/i]

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/01/waco-twin-peaks-shootings-two-weeks-later-more-questions-than-answers 




Most of the 300-1,000 "weapons" confiscated were common pocket knives, but many were chains like these:

(http://img.jpcycles.com/zoom/174-546_A.jpg)
(http://cdnc.lystit.com/photos/2012/06/05/dsquared2-brown-calfskin-leather-wallet-with-chain-product-2-3845809-711092853_large_flex.jpeg)

No word yet on whether unopened cans of Coke were included in the count.   ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: TulsaMoon on June 10, 2015, 04:55:44 pm
I have a long time buddy named Mike Moore that is caught up in this. We call him Wrangler Mike ( cause he always wears them ) and he is in the jail along with the other bikers. He is a Vet, I have never known him to be a part of a biker gang and I am not sure what part he played in this. I know his better half Shanley has put up a go fund me page to raise the funds needed to release him. I am looking forward to speaking to him to get his side of events. Everything pertaining to this event just seems really fishy to me.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on June 10, 2015, 09:49:16 pm
I have a long time buddy named Mike Moore that is caught up in this. We call him Wrangler Mike ( cause he always wears them ) and he is in the jail along with the other bikers. He is a Vet, I have never known him to be a part of a biker gang and I am not sure what part he played in this. I know his better half Shanley has put up a go fund me page to raise the funds needed to release him. I am looking forward to speaking to him to get his side of events. Everything pertaining to this event just seems really fishy to me.


Was this the Sand Springs man that got scooped up along with the "Bikers for Christ" group?
Could you share the GoFundMe link?


Its going to be an epic class-action lawsuit.


"We're guessing that, in the coming years, the Waco authorities' handling of the Twin Peaks biker gang shootout in May will become a textbook example of how not to handle an emergency situation."

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/updated-whats-up-with-the-bogus-waco-biker-bond-reduction-story-7481084

Others disagree:

“The police played this smart,” Stranahan said. “My friend used to describe the media as the ‘drive by media.’ The drive by media just means, this isn’t even a matter of bias, they just hit the story and move on.”
He explained that the police, by keeping everybody in on this million dollar bond, have been able to control the narrative. “We haven’t heard from any of the eyewitnesses,” he said. He continued about the lack of statements from waitresses and that none of the dashcam videos have been released.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/08/law-enforcement-response-to-waco-shooting-raises-constitutional-questions/


Someone brought up an interesting point.  The official narrative is that the so-called "biker war" involved knives, chains, brass knuckles... stuff that will mess up your good looks... but do you see any hint of that in the mugshots?


To me it seems like a lot more people should be asking exactly why ATF and/or SWAT sprayed a crowded restaurant with machine gun fire.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Breadburner on June 14, 2015, 10:03:34 am
Here is something for you 2 dingleberry's to jerk too....Enjoy....!!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/cnn-anchor-calls-dallas-attack-brave/ar-BBl6wpK#image=1


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 20, 2015, 05:11:49 pm
Real classy, Lamar Billboards.  How would you like some boycott with your brown-nosing?
(http://www.agingrebel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Waco-PD-wide.jpg)




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 20, 2015, 05:30:21 pm
Several victims claim they were fired on with silencer-equipped machine guns.  
There were a number of veterans groups at the restaurant (as well as some being recent combat vets, who would actually know what automatic weapons with noise suppressors sound like).
But in the process of denying they fired assault-style, the Waco police actually admit they were using fully-automatic weapons with silencers:

"SWAT team members had silencers on their rifles that fired .223 caliber ammunition, weapons which are capable of fully automatic fire"
 said Waco Police Chief Brent Stroman in a June 12 press release.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Waco-police-chief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php

But.... They admit to only firing a total of 12 shots instead of the thousands of rounds almost 200 witnesses heard.







Within the last week, as more of the accused have been released from jail, a third version of events has begun to emerge. It portrays the Twin Peaks Massacre as a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation gone horribly wrong. Multiple eyewitnesses, speaking on condition of anonymity because they believe what they know places them in danger from the police, portray the Cossacks as an easy club for ATF agents to infiltrate and exploit.

Multiple sources who The Aging Rebel believes to be credible have independently stated that they saw two Cossacks take off their (patches) and put on police windbreakers and balaclavas. The Aging Rebel has confirmed that ATF agents were at the Twin Peaks before and after the shooting occurred. And numerous news outlets have reported that multiple eyewitnesses heard two or three pistol shots which were then followed by automatic weapons fire.

Other sources have stated that at least two and possibly more confidential informants working under contract for the ATF were arrested and quietly released that night.

http://www.agingrebel.com/13024



There were at least 22 uniformed police officers and ten, marked, police Sport Utility Vehicles on scene. Shortly after the gunfire began, police entered the fray. Multiple Texas Department of Public Safety members lay down suppressing fire using FN 90 machine guns. Other officers shouldered M-16s and waded into the fray calling to each other as they wounded or killed the combatants. “One down! Another down!” http://www.agingrebel.com/13021



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: TeeDub on June 22, 2015, 08:55:27 am

Why would combat veterans have any idea what automatic weapons using suppressors (not silencers)sound like?    Suppressors aren't widespread in the military.

Also, have you ever fired a full auto weapon?   They aren't accurate when you spray rounds...   If they wanted to hit who/what they were aiming at and not the entire crowd, they would have left them in semi-automatic mode.

I'm not siding with the police....   Just pointing out problems with your "news" story.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on June 22, 2015, 11:38:05 am
Why would combat veterans have any idea what automatic weapons using suppressors (not silencers)sound like?    Suppressors aren't widespread in the military.


There seem to be multiple witness accounts
http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/texas-news/2015/06/11/twin-peaks-shooting-police-witness/71090750/

and the police chief admitted "SWAT team members had silencers on their rifles"
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Waco-police-chief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php

Maybe every so many years something gets into the water in Waco.  Maybe the confederate flag made them do it.  Who knows.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm
To me it seems like a lot more people should be asking exactly why ATF and/or SWAT sprayed a crowded restaurant with machine gun fire.




    Then they came for the Jews bikers, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew biker.

   

With apologies to Niemöller.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Jammie on June 28, 2015, 02:31:28 pm
There seem to be multiple witness accounts
http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/texas-news/2015/06/11/twin-peaks-shooting-police-witness/71090750/

and the police chief admitted "SWAT team members had silencers on their rifles"
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Waco-police-chief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php

Maybe every so many years something gets into the water in Waco.  Maybe the confederate flag made them do it.  Who knows.

Haha. I love it!

What a sign Vasthta!  Then people wonder why it's not the most popular state in the Union!


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 12, 2015, 06:37:12 pm
This is not the Surveillance video from the Twin Peaks restaurant (which the owners allowed the Associated Press to view) but rather video from the Don Carlos restaurant next door that Waco police tried to suppress.  We now know why, as it contradicts many claims Waco PD made after the massacre.






 A small fraction of the surveillance video shot by the Don Carlos restaurant in Waco between about 12:35 p.m. and about 2:05 p.m. on May 17 was leaked to 65 press contacts including The Aging Rebel (http://www.agingrebel.com/13122) website yesterday afternoon. The contacts include reporters and editors at the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Houston Chronicle, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, MSNBC, Fox, the Waco Tribune-Herald and numerous television stations.

The Don Carlos surveillance videos are multiplexed:  The restaurant recorded the input from 16 cameras on one hard drive. Yesterday’s leaked video shows the view from Camera Two, which recorded activity around the front door of the restaurant and a small portion of the parking lot facing southwest in the general direction of the Twin Peaks restaurant. It faces toward but does not show the signup desk for the Confederation of Clubs and Independents meeting held that day. That is the portion of the shared parking lot where at least four of nine men were killed. An additional 18 people were wounded.

The Don Carlos and Twin Peaks parking lots were separated by a strip of lawn.

The sixteen camera views are: 1 Kitchen; 2 Parking Lot; 3 Loading Dock; 4 Seating Area; 5 Bar; 6 Office; 7 Hostess; 8 Kitchen; 9 Patio; 10 Patio; 11 Side Door; 12 Patio; 13 Back Dock; 14 Parking Lot; 15 Parking Lot; and 16 Parking Lot.

The Leak

The hard drive from which the leaked video was copied is in the possession of the law firm Broden, Mickelsen, Helms & Snipes, LLP. It was not sent to The Aging Rebel by that law firm but by another source using a pseudonym. As a courtesy to that source, The Aging Rebel self embargoed the video until somebody else broke the story. Television Station KCEN announced the leak and very generally described the video at 4:29 p.m. Pacific time yesterday.

Yesterday evening this page received commentary on the video from multiple sources. One source who has viewed the entire hard drive said, “It would appear that the relevant cameras are 2, 14, 15, 16 although they are redundant to a large degree.  Camera 7 may also have some relevance and Camera 11 displays what appears to be Justice of the Peace Peterson.”

A second source said, “The video from the rest of the angles should be coming out in a couple of weeks though…none of them show much of the fight.

None of us understand why this video was suppressed at all – unless something significant happens herein that we haven’t noticed yet.”  

Chronology

The video is time and date stamped. The parking lot and patio in front of the Twin Peaks is obscured by the roof line of the Don Carlos porch. The view does not extend much beyond the grass median between the two lots. Photos taken the afternoon of May 17 show that a line of about a dozen bikes was pulling into the Don Carlos lot when the shooting started. Members of the Cossacks Motorcycle Club had already parked in the area closest to the registration desk at the eastern end of the Twin Peaks.  Contemporary photos indicate that a policeman taking cover behind the pole that supports the Twin Peaks sign fired at least five shots into the parking lot in the area where the two clubs confronted each other.

The video is mostly useful for determining the chronology of events. There is no sound.

The shooting started at exactly 12:41:01 p.m. Waco time. At 12:39:30 a couple entered the Don Carlos with hardly a glance toward the Twin Peaks.
Eleven seconds later two men in front of the Don Carlos stare toward the looming confrontation and a small knot of police is visible on the other side of the grass median near the southeast end of the Twin Peaks. A black SUV, such as government agents sometimes drive, moves from southeast to northwest toward the Jo-Ann Fabric and Crafts Store in the Texas Marketplace shopping center and toward the arriving line of Bandidos on the access road in front of the Don Carlos at about 12:40:27 p.m.

One of the spectators goes inside. The other, wearing a blue shirt looks bored as he stands and watches. He rocks from side to side waiting for something to happen and then he turns to his left and runs inside. (See the screen grab above.)

Much Scurrying

A cluster of seven uniformed cops runs through the Twin Peaks lot in the same direction. Two Swat officers are visible and it is obvious that there are many more than 22 cops on the scene. All of the action appears to take place at the northwest end of the lot and is invisible from Camera Two. All of the police have M-16s. They hide behind cars. One cop with a long rifle reloads at 12:48:48 and the fight appears to be mostly over by 12:42:58 although the police still seem frightened and jazzed on adrenaline.

A white police SUV with its blue flashers blinking pulls into the shot at 12:43:13. A cop gets out 20 seconds later and runs toward the Twin Peaks lot in a crouch. He seems to have missed the fight but he and three other cops come running back 13 seconds later and three cops who look like ninjas crouch behind a car at the southeast corner of the camera view. They appear to be covering the main entrance to the Twin Peaks.

The cops are so spooked that at 12:46:20, about five minutes into the tragedy, one cop appears to try to literally stick his or her head up another cop’s buttocks. The video has an excellent view of those three cops standing there long minute and long minute. They are clearly talking to other police to the south and east of the camera. Some cops sprint. Others stroll. They clot into little groups with their M-16s pressed to their shoulders.

Reinforcements Arrive

Nine cops, presumably reinforcements, in light brown shirts arrive at 12:51:45. The fight seems over but there are still no sign of ambulances. At 12:57:58, about seventeen minutes after the shooting started, a cop carrying two rifles walks back to the white police SUV. He seems to change clothes then walks back toward the Twin Peaks at 12:58:47.

The first customer ventures out of the Don Carlos at 1:06:49 p.m. The first onlooker with a smart phone starts shooting video at 1:08:15. Multiple Don Carlos customers come out and shoot video of the crime scene over the next several minutes until about 1:20 p.m. A man in a salmon colored shirt wearing web gear that holds what might be a camera or a machine gun appears at 1:20:50 p.m. He talks to a cop at the southeast edge of the camera view who then takes off his shirt to reveal a yellow tee shirt under his ballistic vest. The black SUV drives back to the southeast and apparently leaves at 1:21:30.

People exit the Don Carlos carrying leftover containers and at 1:28:30 customers, including customers who have shot video of the crime scene, start to leave. At about 1:31:45 a customer who is shooting video of the scene is clearly told by a cop off camera to stop.

A cop in civilian clothes except for a vest that says “State Police” appears for the first time at 1:34:04 and the white police SUV pulls away at 1:36:29. Cops in riot gear appear at about 1:44 and cops with M-16s began to enter the Don Carlos.

At about 1:57 the plain clothes state policeman and another cop in plain clothes carrying a machine gun greet each other and replay the gunfight with their hands. They point and spread their arms wide. Then one of them leaves and the other describes the fight to an old, fat cop.

The crime scene tape finally goes up around the Don Carlos at about 2:05 p.m.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpPNX4PHKVQ







Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 25, 2015, 07:00:47 pm
The video does have its moments though, and limited though it is it appears to document two crimes committed by police – falsifying evidence and a possible murder.
The video shows between 12:41:17 p.m. and 12:41:18 p.m., a person who is running away from the fight and who is well behind what seems to be the police line appears to get shot in the back and falls forward to the left front of a white hatchback car. He never rises during the next 85 minutes of the video.

The most chilling sequence in the video begins at 1:20:50 p.m. Two plain clothes operators stand under the Don Carlos porch and point toward what seems to be the dead body.
Six seconds later one of the operators, a gray haired man wearing a light orange shirt and a machine gun, walks toward the apparent body. He disappears briefly as he talks to a uniformed cop at about 1:21:07 p.m. Then at 1:21:35 he clearly and unmistakably places something on the ground of this crime scene. Then he quickly walks away.

At 1:59:31 p.m. a uniformed officer walks over to the evidence planted by the plain clothes cop and marks it as evidence.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 25, 2015, 07:08:37 pm
Waco Is Suppressing Evidence That Could Clear Innocent Bikers
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/waco-is-suppressing-evidence-that-could-clear-innocent-bikers/399047/


Why is Waco, Texas, fighting to suppress multiple videos of the shootout that killed nine bikers at the Twin Peaks restaurant on May 17?
Why are some attorneys in the case now prohibited from talking to the press?
And why haven’t Waco officials revealed how many of the nine victims were killed by bullets from police officers’ guns?

These are the most pressing questions as 177 people await a grand jury’s decision about whether they will be indicted for murder, conspiracy, or on lesser charges after attending a regularly scheduled meeting of motorcycle enthusiasts that turned violent.

Attendees included members of motorcycle gangs and innocuous clubs.  Many members of both groups credibly claim that they had nothing to do with a fight at the meeting. An Associated Press review of surveillance footage not yet released to the public suggests that most present fled from the gunfire rather than participating in it. Over the last two months, motorcyclists swept up in the mass arrest following the carnage have lost jobs, been evicted from apartments, and even lost custody of children. And every day that authorities continue their opposition to sunlight in the case delays vindication for the innocents who’ve had their lives upended. The state loses little by dragging its feet while accused innocents pay dearly.

Worrisome aspects of the case include:

    Waco and its police department could be liable for millions of dollars in damages if litigants can prove that they arrested bikers without probable cause, violating their civil rights; or that Waco police shot and killed innocents. Yet the grand jury that will decide whether to indict the bikers is reportedly being led by a longtime detective in the Waco police department––an arrangement defended by a local judge, who declared, “If there is nothing that challenges his impartiality, he is qualified … Who is better qualified in criminal law than somebody who practices it all the time?”

    When one of the arrested bikers, Matthew Clendennen, sued authorities, Waco’s assistant city attorney fought to prevent him from getting access to video footage taken at the Twin Peaks restaurant, key evidence in the incident. While a judge ultimately ruled that his attorney must be allowed to see the footage, he barred its release to the public and imposed a gag order in the case.

    The gag order was requested by McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna, who is named in Clendennen’s federal civil-rights suit––and granted by District Court Judge Matt Johnson, Reyna’s former law partner, according to press reports.

    Over two months have passed since the shooting. The dead bodies have long since been examined. Yet the public still hasn’t been told how many of the gunshot victims were struck by bullets fired from police weapons. (I strongly suspect that if the answer was “zero” Waco police would’ve said so a long time ago.)

Why is this information being suppressed?

After all, evidence that is embarrassing to the Waco Police Department or that exposes the city of Waco to civil liability will presumably be made public eventually.

Here are two theories.

One is the official explanation. Authorities say that this is a complex investigation that takes lots of time and that suppressing video evidence and issuing gag orders is necessary to prevent prospective jurors from being influenced by pre-trial publicity.

I find that explanation dubious.

Authorities in Waco have actively advanced a contested narrative of what happened at the Twin Peaks restaurant from the start, sometimes getting facts wrong. They haven’t tried to preserve the impartiality of jurors, instead, they've pushed a version of events that reflects well on the Waco police and the actions they’ve taken.

Here is an alternative explanation.

If there is video or ballistics evidence suggesting that lots of innocent people were arrested without probable cause, or that police bullets killed some of the dead that day in Waco, it will be a public-relations nightmare and a huge liability for Waco and its police department. Scores of bikers could sue for six- or seven-figure sums. And prosecutors might find it much more difficult to secure indictments in the case.

But if indictments can be filed before evidence inconvenient to Waco authorities is publicly revealed, the leverage changes. A biker might be indicted for conspiracy to murder, then offered a plea deal to accept a much lesser charge, like disturbing the peace, with the understanding that time served would take care of the sentence. That would be a tempting deal to take. And pleading guilty to disturbing the peace would preclude a lawsuit for being arrested without probable cause while saving police and prosecutors from looking like they harassed innocents.

That alternative explanation may not be correct, but it’s plausible enough to justify concern. And the change in leverage between prosecutors and criminal defendants applies whether or not it is motivating authorities.

A final question law enforcement should be forced to answer, as the many criminal and civil lawsuits likely to stem from this case are adjudicated, is how many undercover cops and informants, if any, were present at Twin Peaks that day, and what role, if any, they played in altercations between various motorcycle riders. (My confidence in the Waco Police Department’s performance was not enhanced by the news that one police officer reportedly present at the scene has since been put on leave for allegedly assaulting a Waco resident in an unrelated matter.)

Scores of likely innocents arrested, suppressed video, clear conflicts of interest in the courts, and the possibility that multiple shooting victims died at the hands of police––the aftermath of the Waco shootout ought to be a prominent part of the ongoing national conversation about a criminal-justice system that routinely victimizes innocents. And by the time the truth outs, perhaps that will come to pass.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 15, 2015, 06:49:36 pm

Most of the wounds described in the autopsies are consistent with wounds inflicted by M-16s and FN P90s
http://www.agingrebel.com/13301 

Cellphones Returned by Waco Police "scrubbed" of Data.
http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/biker-objects-to-postponement-of-trial-says-da-has-no/article_a548cb37-4c2a-534b-b39f-a8716da6bcdb.html


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 17, 2015, 03:15:11 pm
The old guy at about 47:45 is "telling" the cops off....shame ya can't hear what he is saying...



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on August 18, 2015, 09:27:07 am
The old guy at about 47:45 is "telling" the cops off....shame ya can't hear what he is saying...


Arresting an entire restaurant full of witnesses, forcing a mass gag order, then wiping their cellphones clean doesnt make for good "transparency."


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 18, 2015, 02:40:12 pm

Arresting an entire restaurant full of witnesses, forcing a mass gag order, then wiping their cellphones clean doesnt make for good "transparency."


Kinda puts the lie to the whole "land of the free" thing, doesn't it?



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 13, 2015, 09:09:29 pm

Kinda puts the lie to the whole "land of the free" thing, doesn't it?


Waco-area officials under scrutiny in biker shootout case
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20150913-waco-area-officials-under-scrutiny-in-biker-shootout-case.ece


WACO — The secrecy that enshrouds the investigation into a biker shootout in May that left nine people dead and led to the mass arrest of 177 people is hardly surprising in this city, where public scrutiny is rare and unwelcome.

On the banks of the Brazos River in Central Texas, Waco and the surrounding county are largely run by a close-knit circle of judges, prosecutors and law enforcement that defense lawyers complain leads local agencies to close ranks in the aftermath of this most recent calamity.

It's a city where a district judge and district attorney are former law partners, the mayor is the son of a former mayor, the sheriff comes from a long line of lawmen and Waco pioneers and the sheriff's brother is the district attorney's chief investigator.

Bikers and public watchdogs have criticized authorities here for how they've handled the investigation, citing the mass arrests in which people were held for days or weeks on $1 million bonds without sufficient evidence to support such actions four months after the shootings.

No formal charges have been made, and it remains unclear whose bullets, including police bullets, struck the dead and injured, or when cases will be presented to a grand jury, which is currently led by a Waco police detective.

"I don't know of any defense lawyer who hasn't looked at the facts of this case and gasped," said Grant Scheiner, a criminal defense attorney in Houston not connected to the bikers' case.

Waco police, McLennan County prosecutors and judges refused to comment — citing a gag order written by the DA — but law enforcement staunchly defend their actions, including the 12 shots that the police chief said officers fired into the melee after bikers allegedly opened fire on them.

The violence erupted May 17 before a meeting of a coalition of motorcycle clubs that advocates rider safety. Police have said two rival biker gangs got into a confrontation that turned deadly when one group of bikers opened fire on another outside a Twin Peaks restaurant.

Some 177 people were arrested and remained in custody until their bonds were reduced. Defense attorneys have been critical of how the cases have been processed, accusing District Attorney Abel Reyna of writing "fill-in-the-blank" arrest affidavits. A police officer testified a justice of the peace approved the affidavits without making any individual determination of probable cause.

In the criminal case of one of the defendants, Reyna's former law partner, District Judge Matt Johnson, issued a gag order as written by Reyna.

Many bikers who previously told The Associated Press they were innocent bystanders are now reluctant to speak further because of the gag order.

Although police and the district attorney described last spring everyone who was taken into custody as criminals, an Associated Press review of a Texas Department of Public Safety database found no convictions listed under the names and birthdates of more than two-thirds of those arrested.

Justifying the mass arrests, Sheriff Parnell McNamara said, "A message was sent to the whole country that we will not tolerate this type of disorder in our community."

McNamara describes the county's criminal justice system as a close-knit Christian "posse" of Baylor University graduates committed to "putting away as many hard-core criminals as possible."

That kind of mentality led the county's former district attorney, John Segrest, to compare the McLennan County criminal justice system to a "bubble, a separate realm. When you're a member of the system, you tend to think that most everything revolves around anything that you do. You get an unrealistic view of the world from inside."

The city's crown jewel is Baylor, the world's largest Baptist university, which in the 1880s attracted Baptists from across Texas to Waco, then known as the buckle of the Bible Belt. The private university has an air of insularity that extends to the county courthouse, a domed palace whose Lady Justice lost her arm holding scales in a storm.

From a series of Ku Klux Klan lynchings nearly a century ago to a massive twister in 1953 that tore through downtown to the Branch Davidian siege in 1993, Waco's downtown streets, a mix of historic mansions, public buildings, dilapidated houses and empty spaces where nothing was rebuilt reflect a city perpetually recovering from its last disaster.

Sheriff McNamara, the descendent of one of Waco's early settlers, was formerly a U.S. marshal who participated in the Branch Davidian siege in which federal agents tried to arrest cult leader David Koresh for stockpiling weapons at a ranch outside town. The confrontation led to a 51-day standoff that ended when the complex caught fire, killing Koresh and nearly 80 followers.

The international attention brought by the tragedy left Waco residents wary of outside law enforcement, and they say they'll handle the biker shootout themselves.

"Waco's nickname is Six-Shooter Junction," McNamara said. "Not really anything we're real proud of, but that's just the way it is."




The degree to which government officials have been uncooperative, obstructive and evasive about the Massacre is prima facie evidence that there is an official coverup. There was no probable cause to believe that most of the 177, or 182, or so, people arrested that day were guilty of “engaging in organized criminal activity.” There is probable cause to believe that police murdered at least six men and may have attempted to murder 20 more.
http://www.agingrebel.com/13387



Sound of silence in Twin Peaks biker case drawing ire

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Sound-of-silence-in-Twin-Peaks-biker-case-drawing-6488604.php





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 14, 2015, 05:05:34 pm

On the banks of the Brazos River in Central Texas, Waco and the surrounding county are largely run by a close-knit circle of judges, prosecutors and law enforcement that defense lawyers complain leads local agencies to close ranks in the aftermath of this most recent calamity.

It's a city where a district judge and district attorney are former law partners, the mayor is the son of a former mayor, the sheriff comes from a long line of lawmen and Waco pioneers and the sheriff's brother is the district attorney's chief investigator.



Just like Tulsa. 

Only the guy protected by the clique just happened to not have any bullets in the assault weapon he used.  Mark Allen Eaton.




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on September 19, 2015, 06:32:58 pm
Editorial: We appeal to the court: End gag order in Waco bikers case
http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20150916-editorial-we-appeal-to-the-court-end-gag-order-in-waco-bikers-case.ece

Four months after a bloody biker shootout, the criminal justice system in Waco looks more than a little out of whack.

It’s one of the biggest criminal prosecutions in state history, yet authorities will say almost nothing about the May 17 confrontation involving motorcycle enthusiasts and police.

Families of the nine men killed and the 18 others injured deserve better than that. So do the 177 people arrested, many of whom likely are guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.







This story started out as, well, wacky; it’s become downright outrageous.

After police and McLennan County DA Abel Reyna initially described those taken into custody as criminals, The Associated Press reviewed public safety databases and found no convictions for more than two-thirds of those arrested.
Yet the mass arrest morphed into many left stranded in jail for months on inexplicable $1 million bonds. Only after those sums were finally reduced were almost all of the accused released.

Just as troubling, Reyna wrote what defense lawyers describe as cookie-cutter arrest affidavits for the accused, documents that a justice of the peace approved without making any individual determination of probable cause.

Then came a gag order in late June — approved by a judge who is also the DA’s former law partner. No wonder people are asking questions about what kind of behind-the-scenes cooperation is going on among judges, prosecutors and law enforcement in Central Texas.

We expressed concern in July after word came that longtime Waco police detective James Head would serve as foreman of the grand jury that likely will hear the shootout case. Can the bikers get a fair hearing under those circumstances?
The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals could go a long way toward airing out this story by nullifying the gag order; it’s unclear how soon it will rule on that request. With so much suspicion permeating this case, the court would be wise to take the side of much-needed transparency.

The AP reported Friday that, within a trove of documents it had gotten its hands on, was evidence that confirms that police bullets hit bikers. However, it remains unclear whether those shots caused any of the fatalities.
The material also includes video footage of people fleeing the scene amid the shooting and audio of police threatening to shoot people if they rise from the ground.

The wheels of justice need some oiling in Waco. For those who face the possibility of 15 years to life. And for grieving families still trying to figure out what happened to their loved ones.




Gag Order Only Applied to Defense, Not Police or Prosecutors

http://radiolegendary.com/2015/09/silenced-lawyer-asks-high-court-to-lift-gag-order
http://www.texasstandard.org/stories/categories/crime-justice/lawyer-wants-gag-order-lifted-on-the-waco-biker-shootout


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2015, 08:20:12 pm

It’s one of the biggest criminal prosecutions in state history, yet authorities will say almost nothing about the May 17 confrontation involving motorcycle enthusiasts and police.


“motorcycle enthusiasts”.  Thanks for the laugh.  Almost conjures images Boy Scouts firing off .22 rifles on the range at Philmont being swarmed by DEA agents.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on September 20, 2015, 12:47:10 pm
“motorcycle enthusiasts”.  Thanks for the laugh.  Almost conjures images Boy Scouts firing off .22 rifles on the range at Philmont being swarmed by DEA agents.

Unless the "Bikers for Christ", "Patriot Guard Riders" and the "Vise Grip Antuque Motorcycle Club" have taken over the meth running in Texas, the term "enthusiast" propably fits most of the people who showed up for what was supposed to be a meeting about upcoming legislative efforts.

What happened there was a clusterflock of amazing proportions, and people sworn to be accountable are running out of legal maneuvers to hide behind.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 05, 2015, 09:42:08 pm

The bikers believe this provides a clue to the Waco P.D.'s ongoing silence: The cops know their response was overzealous, possibly unlawful, and now they're covering it up. Some bikers believe there's an even more sinister explanation: that a firefight of some kind was supposed to happen—that it was all part of a plan by the Waco P.D. to provoke bitter rivals into a public brawl that could be violently crushed and then used as a basis for sweeping RICO indictments.

“We basically walked into an ambush.”


http://www.gq.com/story/untold-story-texas-biker-gang-shoot-out



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 06, 2015, 06:47:30 am

The bikers believe this provides a clue to the Waco P.D.'s ongoing silence: The cops know their response was overzealous, possibly unlawful, and now they're covering it up. Some bikers believe there's an even more sinister explanation: that a firefight of some kind was supposed to happen—that it was all part of a plan by the Waco P.D...

The first sentence was so very logical. Then it turned left...

I have my own idea of what happened. And I'm not saying it was aliens, but... ok, it was aliens.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 06, 2015, 06:43:39 pm
The GQ article made it clear that at least some of the big guns counted on making this a big operation that would springboard their political careers.  Busses were booked days before to shuttle prisoners to a mass booking area at a stadium, video cameras were placed on poles days before the publicly scheduled meeting, and so on.

Then something didnt go exactly as planned.



Maybe the gag order is unraveling, because the GQ interviews seem the most detailed witness account to date.

Now, the first two or three pops—me and half my crew being ex-military, we know what small-arms fire from pistols sounds like. We also know what squad automatic weapons [typically used by the military and law enforcement] sound like. After the third pop, it was nothing but squad automatic weapons.

Not a single law-enforcement person lifted a finger to help any of the wounded. And they made it pretty clear that they were going to be violent if we tried to take our guys to the ambulance. Three men were bleeding out before our eyes. If those men were still alive 30, 40 minutes after being shot, they could have been saved. A prospect named Trainer from out of Tarrant County chapter was shot. They zip-tied him and laid him on the ground next to a Bandido they had handcuffed. I noticed him jerk a few times, laying there. We were sitting there, 30 feet from him, and weren't able to help him. About two hours later, somebody walked over, looked at him, and covered him with a yellow sheet.





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2015, 06:59:14 am

Now, the first two or three pops—me and half my crew being ex-military, we know what small-arms fire from pistols sounds like. We also know what squad automatic weapons [typically used by the military and law enforcement] sound like. After the third pop, it was nothing but squad automatic weapons.


That's enough right there to call BS on the entire article. Squad Automatic Weapons are NOT typically used by law enforcement. Lets just go ahead and saw NEVER used by law enforcement. They are fully automatic, belt fed, 5.56mm (.223) machine guns designed to bring overwhelming fire to the battlefield.

Perhaps they meant the sound of .223, or the sound of rifle fire... but that's a different thing than the sound of automatic weapons fire.

Neither the sheriff nor the confiscated weapons report any automatic rifles fired (one AK-47 was captured, but it wasn't auto and sounds different than a .223).

[edited to add] Sheriff says the deputies had M16 style rifles, but did not fire in full auto. Still, a big difference between 20 rounds from an M16 and a belt fed SAW. If it was Joe Blow saying it, I;d have sympathy for the discrepancy. But when you start with "we have lots of military experience and totally know," then a SAW is not an M16[/edit]


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2015, 07:39:15 am
GQ isn’t exactly what I’d call scholarly and accounts from people engaged in an on-going criminal enterprise isn’t exactly what I’d call reliable witness statements.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on October 07, 2015, 10:22:30 am
That's enough right there to call BS on the entire article. Squad Automatic Weapons are NOT typically used by law enforcement. Lets just go ahead and saw NEVER used by law enforcement. They are fully automatic, belt fed, 5.56mm (.223) machine guns designed to bring overwhelming fire to the battlefield.

Perhaps they meant the sound of .223, or the sound of rifle fire... but that's a different thing than the sound of automatic weapons fire.

Neither the sheriff nor the confiscated weapons report any automatic rifles (one AK-47 was captured, but it wasn't auto and sounds different than a .223).

The Waco police chief did admit to using "silencers on their rifles that fired .223 caliber ammunition, weapons which are capable of fully automatic fire"
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Waco-police-chief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php
but claimed his men only fired a total of 12 rounds.  That apparently didnt include weapons fired by other agencies, and obviously those wouldn't appear on a "confiscated weapons" report.

Only about 4 of almost 200 taken prisoner had any police record (https://reason.com/blog/2015/06/02/4-reasons-that-waco-biker-gang-shootout) so to label all of the witnesses "criminals" is grabbing at straws. 

The powers to be screwed the pooch, and its going to make a killer Netflix and Chill movie someday.

It would be easy to clear all that up with the release of ballistics reports and complete autopsies, but its been 5 months... how long does it really take?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: swake on October 07, 2015, 10:35:09 am
The Waco police chief did admit to using "silencers on their rifles that fired .223 caliber ammunition, weapons which are capable of fully automatic fire"
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Waco-police-chief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php
but claimed his men only fired a total of 12 rounds.  That apparently didnt include weapons fired by other agencies, and obviously those wouldn't appear on a "confiscated weapons" report.

Only about 4 of almost 200 taken prisoner had any police record (https://reason.com/blog/2015/06/02/4-reasons-that-waco-biker-gang-shootout) so to label all of the witnesses "criminals" is grabbing at straws. 

The powers to be screwed the pooch, and its going to make a killer Netflix and Chill movie someday.

It would be easy to clear all that up with the release of ballistics reports and complete autopsies, but its been 5 months... how long does it really take?

What kind of sound does a rifle with a silencer on it make?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: TeeDub on October 07, 2015, 12:01:14 pm
What kind of sound does a rifle with a silencer on it make?

It still sounds like a rifle (regardless of what Hollywood would have you believe.)

Heh.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM8xvE5B4yk


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: rebound on October 07, 2015, 12:23:54 pm
Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: swake on October 07, 2015, 01:24:27 pm
Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

I've also read articles by people that were in the gang that was attacked. There are many sides to this story.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on October 07, 2015, 01:31:30 pm
Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

There’s no doubt it was a huge cluster. 

I’m simply tired of seeing it come up ad nauseum on a Tulsa-centric forum.  I usually ignore the thread, but when CF came up as last contributor, I figured there had to be something to see.  His arguments are usually quite cogent.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 07, 2015, 05:07:06 pm
Cannon, Conan, Swake,   You guys seem to be going out of your way to nit-pick (my words) both the article and the overall position that this was a complete cluster by the police. Bordering on (and perhaps actually) illegal.   I haven't read the article, but from the outset it was apparent that this whole event was supremely mishandled (at best) by the locals forces.  Do you all feel that it should be left to fade away?  I'm just curious.

I'm sided with the bikers in this thing. More than likely, the cops over reacted and certainly did mess everything up. True Texas style.

BUT - like Conan said, lets bother discussing it when facts come up. Not when some yayhoo makes BS statements in an entertainment magazine.

I have a primal urge to call BS when I see BS.  It gets me in trouble on facebook all the time... sorry.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on October 07, 2015, 06:36:37 pm

I'm sided with the bikers in this thing. More than likely, the cops over reacted and certainly did mess everything up. True Texas style.

BUT - like Conan said, lets bother discussing it when facts come up. Not when some yayhoo makes BS statements in an entertainment magazine.




Nature abhors a vacuum, and thats pretty much what we got when Waco authorities publicly responded to a significant event with self-praise and forced silencing of dissent.

Is there BS here?  Absolutely.  Is the can of worms that got opened eventually going to spill into our community?  In some form, likely.
Legal experts across the country are aghast at how badly this was carried out, but in the vacuum of proper reporting, accountability and redress, they know its only a matter of time before the exception becomes the rule.

The federal government didnt barge in with a Ferguson-style finger-wagging because, well, they were there -- and they might possibly have a stain of cruelty on their shining armor.

We forget that the Banditos are a minority (quite literally 1%) and its naive to lump them together with the veterans clubs and the mom-and-pop riding associations, but they make all the noise and therefore make it easy for politicians and crime reporters to prey on the 99%.

Oh, and GQ magazine isnt exactly the Washington Post, but when you consider the usual suspects like CNN didnt bother looking past the PIO's self-serving narrative you have to give credit where credit is due.  If the spokesperson (who is running for sheriff) wants to refute any of that with facts, well...


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on October 08, 2015, 09:26:26 am
I’m still failing to see the relevance of this thread to a forum which is intended to be Tulsa-centric.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on October 08, 2015, 02:12:54 pm
I’m still failing to see the relevance of this thread to a forum which is intended to be Tulsa-centric.

Well what did the Kentucky Clerk have to do with Tulsa?
Or Boehner's resignation?  Or Trump?  Or Occupy?  Or Bengazi?
These are all topics under this very same "National & International Politics" column you have participated in, so wheres the difference?

Dont you believe in "Trickle-down Politics"?  ;-)


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 08, 2015, 02:31:20 pm
We have a lot of stuff here that isn't directly related to Tulsa proper...the whole international topic pretty much doesn't pertain to our quiet little backwater....Except for how those outside events shape and influence our own home-grown nonsense.... Seems to me like this forum has much more business considering/discussing national issues than say a Mayoral or County Commission candidate talking about abortion or whether Obama/McCain/Cruz has a birth certificate or any other national concern not directly affecting the care and feeding of Tulsa city and county.  (Not talking about any one candidate - there have been many over the years who talk about stuff having nothing to do with city/county administration and operations.)


I guess if one doesn't want to discuss anything beyond the city limits, one can stay out of the national areas.  I feel like going out into the world a little more can only help to try to reduce the isolationist, extremist, tunnel vision we have in such abundance in this state - help get us out of our near fanatical parochialism.


nit-pick
nit-pic
nitpik
nitpick
nitpic
knitpick
knitpik

picnic?

Ok...will stop now....sometimes ya just gotta go down the rabbit hole.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on October 08, 2015, 02:34:08 pm
This isn’t politics.  It’s about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang. 

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cynical on October 09, 2015, 07:55:59 am
Conan, take a look at the myriad political responses to the recent police killings and again say you don't see a political angle here.

Anything is political when it is the fodder for political debate. It is made especially political in this case by the fact that when the police act, they act pursuant to powers and authority given to them by the people, who act through public officials, some elected, some not, who are responding to public pressure that the public officials themselves sometimes instigate through political action. Aside from the lawsuits that result, abuses of public authority is almost purely a political issue.

An element to the Waco case specifically alluded to in this discussion is the militarization of civilian police departments across the country, including our own "dysfunctional" sheriff's department. The alleged use by the police of military weapons in the shootout, however debatable those allegations are to some commenters, bring up public policy issues about the role of law enforcement in a civil society that are inherently political. The trouble a great many of us have with creating and carrying out public policy around overbroad stereotypical identities such "MC gang" is also political. Why would you want to stifle this particular discussion? Frankly, I'm surprised.

This isn’t politics.  It’s about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang. 

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 10, 2015, 05:04:57 pm
This isn’t politics.  It’s about whether or not law enforcement in a city 300-400 miles away acted appropriately in dealing with an MC gang.  

Hook, line and sinker.

Sorry, I fail to see a political angle to this.

The shooting gallery in Waco is every bit as relevant as any of the now-routine school or workplace shootings, but more-so because it was carried out by the very people we trust to protect us from those.
But you want a local angle?  Aside from at least one (possibly two) people from the Tulsa area swept up in the bungled sting, maybe a trip down memory lane would help....
Remember the hysterical press conference warning that bikers were converging on Waco with "grenades and C4 explosives" targeting "high-ranking law enforcement officials and their families" ?
How could you forget a bloodbath like that?   Apparently, easily.  And yet, it sounds somewhat familiar....

Authorities are alerting law enforcement agencies in the Tulsa area about potential retaliation for a shooting at a biker clubhouse, according to an interoffice memo from the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office.  Agents from the FBI's office in Oklahoma City sent a bulletin about the retaliation threat to several agencies in and around Tulsa, officials said.
(The man turned out to be unarmed, just awakened, and had been reaching for his hearing aid when a volley from TCSO's SWAT team killed him.)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/officers-warned-of-revenge-potential/article_fbd0b20e-4bdb-5e15-9c11-4c7000254b2c.html












Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 11, 2015, 09:21:39 pm
Conan, take a look at the myriad political responses to the recent police killings and again say you don't see a political angle here.

Anything is political when it is the fodder for political debate. It is made especially political in this case by the fact that when the police act, they act pursuant to powers and authority given to them by the people, who act through public officials, some elected, some not, who are responding to public pressure that the public officials themselves sometimes instigate through political action. Aside from the lawsuits that result, abuses of public authority is almost purely a political issue.

An element to the Waco case specifically alluded to in this discussion is the militarization of civilian police departments across the country, including our own "dysfunctional" sheriff's department. The alleged use by the police of military weapons in the shootout, however debatable those allegations are to some commenters, bring up public policy issues about the role of law enforcement in a civil society that are inherently political. The trouble a great many of us have with creating and carrying out public policy around overbroad stereotypical identities such "MC gang" is also political. Why would you want to stifle this particular discussion? Frankly, I'm surprised.





"We began this story thinking it was about Texas gang culture," Penn says. "It turned out to be a story about the Waco justice system."
http://www.texasstandard.org/stories/this-reporter-interviewed-bikers-from-the-waco-shootout-heres-what-he-learned







EX-ATF agent tells CNN he helped agency incite wars between motorcycle clubs:
https://www.facebook.com/Ling/posts/10153361678443323

Just wanted to post this exchange that I had on FB with a former federal law enforcement agent who says that he, along with the BET--Biker Enforcement Team, incited war between the Mongols and Hells Angels that lead to a number of deaths.

Dear Lisa,
I see you're doing a segment on the MONGOLS MC, I am a retired Law Enforcement person who was in the BET Unit=Biker Enforcement Team. I testified at two RICO cases involving the Hells Angels. FYI it was the Dago Unit of the BET team that had targeted the HA's and Mongols to war with each other in he early 70's as our unit tried to get the HA's and Mongols to go to war. Sad to say it worked and Jingles and Red were shot dead on the freeway so long ago.

You are an excellent reporter and hope that on your MONGOLS story dig into there DAGO chapter and how they and the HA's went to war you will see it was due to our BET Team

(Lisa Ling) Do you regret what happened with DAGO? Just curious

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, so very much. One MONGOL i arrested Brant Rudolph Honkanen was the one we (BET) used to get the HA's and Mongols to war, I feel we were deeply responsible for the (BET) HA's Hit on Jingles and Red in DAGO. Then we did some deplorable things from one state to another all in the name of Justice, I recently told George Christie of the HA's who is now a CNN biker consultant , he knew we BET were coming after so many bikers with false evidence. So yes i regret it all, the only thing i do not regret is being able to return Sonny Barger of the HA's his late fathers Bible back to him at the RICO case so long ago. It was a very hard time to be a " Corrupt" cop as a ruse to set up people, make false arrest and ruin innocent peoples lives i will always regret.

(Lisa Ling) Thank you very much for your candor Scott. I met a lot of decent, hard working Mongols while with them. Sure, they have a violent history, but people don't know the whole story.

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, you are very spot on, I too know many Hell's Angels , Mongols and other MC's who do plenty of good, have integrity, and help many in need. I think our government has created an atmosphere of fear to the American People on them. Sad to say i too was part of this mongering that rumor . Glad I'm retired and know the truth.

(Scott Barnes) · Hopefully tonight's show will show the American people many members of the club are caring wonderful decent people.

Dear Lisa,
You did one incredible job on The Mongol Nation, you aired things never before known. Your segment was a home run and actually touched and changed many people who sent me messages on your show.

Even many Feds who taped it and watched it were surprised , you really did a great job. Glad to see this new younger group of club members are much more respectful, honorable and caring than when i went after them in the 70's.

So happy to see the change is positive and is welcomed I hope the Feds will stop targeting them and look at wall street. Thank You for a job well done.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 12, 2015, 10:22:07 pm


(Lisa Ling) Thank you very much for your candor Scott. I met a lot of decent, hard working Mongols while with them. Sure, they have a violent history, but people don't know the whole story.

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, you are very spot on, I too know many Hell's Angels , Mongols and other MC's who do plenty of good, have integrity, and help many in need. I think our government has created an atmosphere of fear to the American People on them. Sad to say i too was part of this mongering that rumor . Glad I'm retired and know the truth.

(Scott Barnes) · Hopefully tonight's show will show the American people many members of the club are caring wonderful decent people.

Dear Lisa,
You did one incredible job on The Mongol Nation, you aired things never before known. Your segment was a home run and actually touched and changed many people who sent me messages on your show.

Even many Feds who taped it and watched it were surprised , you really did a great job. Glad to see this new younger group of club members are much more respectful, honorable and caring than when i went after them in the 70's.

So happy to see the change is positive and is welcomed I hope the Feds will stop targeting them and look at wall street. Thank You for a job well done.[/i]



Really??   Talk about hook line and sinker....you do realize that the outlaw biker clubs make their living by illegal activities.  And when someone intrudes on the turf, snuffing can be involved??  Like the Mafia.  And other criminal organizations.


We definitely have a long ways to go to get the cops to clean up their act, but the 1% clubs are not choir boys at all.  Like Wall Street....just with patches and leather rather than Armani.

As for doing good, yeah a lot of them do some good.  But the cartels in Mexico and Columbia also do a lot for the little people around them....almost a "Robin Hood" thing....  Doesn't mean they are the optimum solution to help poor people...



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on October 13, 2015, 10:41:44 pm

We definitely have a long ways to go to get the cops to clean up their act, but the 1% clubs are not choir boys at all.  Like Wall Street....just with patches and leather rather than Armani.

As for doing good, yeah a lot of them do some good.  But the cartels in Mexico and Columbia also do a lot for the little people around them....almost a "Robin Hood" thing....  Doesn't mean they are the optimum solution to help poor people...


So what would that justify?   What do you tell the families of the bulk of people inside that restaurant, who were law-abiding people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and no longer have a way to pay their bills because they lost their jobs while waiting weeks or months to get a hearing?

http://www.kcentv.com/story/29213297/exclusive-first-interview-with-bikers-involved-in-twin-peaks-shooting


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 15, 2015, 10:06:07 pm
So what would that justify?   What do you tell the families of the bulk of people inside that restaurant, who were law-abiding people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and no longer have a way to pay their bills because they lost their jobs while waiting weeks or months to get a hearing?

http://www.kcentv.com/story/29213297/exclusive-first-interview-with-bikers-involved-in-twin-peaks-shooting


Not much.  I'm not on the side of "law enforcement" on that deal...like we knew at the beginning, the people there were not 'clubbers'.  Just trying to provide a little balance to VN's hard slant in one direction - there are 1%'ers out there that are hard core. Wasn't the case in Wacko, Texass.

The one big point that VN tries to make is that there is a huge problem with "law enforcement" in this country and something needs to be done to fix it.  At the same time, that doesn't mean criminals are any better than the bad cops.


Speaking of cops...I was doing some farm work late Friday a couple weeks ago, and drove through downtown BA as a 'short cut' to get to the expressway.  Got stopped by the local gendarmes.  They were polite enough I guess, but the whole premise was a bogus crock of carp - they stopped me for not having a license light.  I did have one burned out, but one was fine and way more than bright enough to illuminate the tag - since I have a couple other vehicles that have single bulb versions using the same bulb, I have a valid automotive comparison.  They were 'fishing'.  Since they were younger guys, I can guarantee they have never stopped anyone before with as clean a record as I have, so they couldn't find anything to trump up - still took them over 10 minutes of trying, while I just had to sit and wait.  There is a reason people in the 60's gave them a slang term name related to animals with cloven hooves.




  




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: AquaMan on October 16, 2015, 07:52:26 am
That is BA. Back in the 80's I was a sales rep there based in Tulsa but working that territory. I was stopped for having an expired sticker. Problem was I had just put a new sticker on the week before. I was wearing coat and tie as well. They are quite provincial there. I was an outsider to them. Not so atypical for a bedroom community.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Hoss on October 16, 2015, 08:36:55 am

Not much.  I'm not on the side of "law enforcement" on that deal...like we knew at the beginning, the people there were not 'clubbers'.  Just trying to provide a little balance to VN's hard slant in one direction - there are 1%'ers out there that are hard core. Wasn't the case in Wacko, Texass.

The one big point that VN tries to make is that there is a huge problem with "law enforcement" in this country and something needs to be done to fix it.  At the same time, that doesn't mean criminals are any better than the bad cops.


Speaking of cops...I was doing some farm work late Friday a couple weeks ago, and drove through downtown BA as a 'short cut' to get to the expressway.  Got stopped by the local gendarmes.  They were polite enough I guess, but the whole premise was a bogus crock of carp - they stopped me for not having a license light.  I did have one burned out, but one was fine and way more than bright enough to illuminate the tag - since I have a couple other vehicles that have single bulb versions using the same bulb, I have a valid automotive comparison.  They were 'fishing'.  Since they were younger guys, I can guarantee they have never stopped anyone before with as clean a record as I have, so they couldn't find anything to trump up - still took them over 10 minutes of trying, while I just had to sit and wait.  There is a reason people in the 60's gave them a slang term name related to animals with cloven hooves.



Yep.  BA cops haven't changed in nearly 30 years.  They're mostly a-holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkXlZUlLJc


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 16, 2015, 10:22:11 am
Last ticket I got was in 1984 in BA...they had an a**hole cop there who was all gung ho - gonna be the next Dirty Harry, I guess.  I was driving down 81st at 129th - had just left a stop sign and  only driven about 900 ft when pulled over.  This was before there was any infrastructure there except for Country Lane Estates.  Anyway, he had "radared" me at 68 mph.  The car - an old beater as always - could not get to 45 mph in that distance even when floored.  I got the speedometer tested, did independent tests with witnesses on acceleration.

Talked to the City DA and asked him for his help.  He was a really good guy and gave me good information to defend myself.  I have always thought he knew what the problem was and was trying to help people who were victims of this clown cop.  Even though I had to go to (night) court, the ticket was thrown out, as it should have been - actually, I was found not guilty.   This was Bob Perugino, who was a 'visiting' DA at the time.  Later became a Judge in Tulsa County courts.  Has since retired, I think.

From friends/family that live there, it seems like BA cops have improved over the years, but still have a trip to travel....


On the other side, a friend had a poisonous snake event in their house and the officer that responded was very professional and did an excellent job correcting the problem.  Story I heard was hilarious - he was about as 'nervous' about the snake as the homeowner.  I think I would be too.





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 18, 2015, 05:12:16 pm

I'm not on the side of "law enforcement" on that deal...like we knew at the beginning, the people there were not 'clubbers'.  Just trying to provide a little balance to VN's hard slant in one direction - there are 1%'ers out there that are hard core. Wasn't the case in Wacko, Texass.

The one big point that VN tries to make is that there is a huge problem with "law enforcement" in this country and something needs to be done to fix it.  At the same time, that doesn't mean criminals are any better than the bad cops.




Texas Attorney General Lance Kutnick ruled that McLennan County District Attorney Abelino “Abel” Reyna violated the Texas Public Information Act in relation to the alleged extortion of bond reductions for Waco Massacre defendants.

"Detainees...were told that in exchange for bond reductions, they must sign a document stating the Waco police ‘had the right to arrest the inmate and that he/she will not file a lawsuit.’"

“They know these people aren’t dangerous or they wouldn’t be offering the bond reductions and they know the police and the D.A.’s office have violated the law and now they are trying to hold people hostage until they agree to waive their rights. It’s unconscionable."

"Any time a prosecutor's office does not want people talking about something, one should raise a red flag. They may say it is to protect the investigation, but they are protecting themselves from whatever it is that they don't want us to see or know about."
In addition to the most pressing question––how many of the bikers were killed by government-issued lead––it would be useful to know what role, if any, local authorities or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a bureaucracy with a stunning recent history of misconduct, played in provoking the fight.

If it turns out that some of the victims in Waco died from police bullets, authorities will have shot people dead, arrested all the witnesses, and prohibited them from speaking out under penalty of contempt. It’s long past time for state overseers to step in.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/in-the-waco-shootout-police-bullets-hit-bikers/406534/


(http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/northwest-dallas-county/headlines/20151015-waco_shooting_investigation_46111035.ece/BINARY/w940/WACO_SHOOTING_INVESTIGATION_46111035)

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/northwest-dallas-county/headlines/20151016-sounding-off-readers-discuss-waco-biker-investigation.ece


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2015, 09:14:40 am



Texas Attorney General Lance Kutnick ruled that McLennan County District Attorney Abelino “Abel” Reyna violated the Texas Public Information Act in relation to the alleged extortion of bond reductions for Waco Massacre defendants.

"Detainees...were told that in exchange for bond reductions, they must sign a document stating the Waco police ‘had the right to arrest the inmate and that he/she will not file a lawsuit.’"

“They know these people aren’t dangerous or they wouldn’t be offering the bond reductions and they know the police and the D.A.’s office have violated the law and now they are trying to hold people hostage until they agree to waive their rights. It’s unconscionable."

"Any time a prosecutor's office does not want people talking about something, one should raise a red flag. They may say it is to protect the investigation, but they are protecting themselves from whatever it is that they don't want us to see or know about."
In addition to the most pressing question––how many of the bikers were killed by government-issued lead––it would be useful to know what role, if any, local authorities or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a bureaucracy with a stunning recent history of misconduct, played in provoking the fight.

If it turns out that some of the victims in Waco died from police bullets, authorities will have shot people dead, arrested all the witnesses, and prohibited them from speaking out under penalty of contempt. It’s long past time for state overseers to step in.






True.

The should be Federal investigations about civil rights violations...but it's Texass,...oop, sorry, Baja Oklahoma, so not likely much will happen.  



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on October 22, 2015, 02:14:18 pm
Oh look at all the ex-Marines in those pictures, Im sure they would have no idea what fully automatic weapons fire sounds like  ;)


The should be Federal investigations about civil rights violations...but it's Texass,...oop, sorry, Baja Oklahoma, so not likely much will happen. 

If the Waco Police Chief was telling the truth about HIS men only firing 12 shots, then someone else is going to have to be held accountable for the hundreds that peppered a crowded restaurant.  That leaves the Texas Rangers, the DPS, other local departments and "task forces" invited early to the turkey shoot, and the ATF.

The later casts doubt on an impartial investigation by the Feds, but a miscarriage on this scale is every bit as deserving of a hearing as Bengazi.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 23, 2015, 01:55:34 pm

The later casts doubt on an impartial investigation by the Feds, but a miscarriage on this scale is every bit as deserving of a hearing as Bengazi.



Much more so....


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on November 06, 2015, 10:51:49 am
Coming up on six months now, and they have yet to charge anyone with murder.
All the energy and resources in the investigation seem to be geared towards keeping witnesses quiet, and gaming the 24/7 news cycle.

There was a release of some cherry-picked video to CNN last week (in defiance of the gag order) but the people controlling the narrative insist they didnt do it.
Looking at what leaked gives a big clue as to who might have leaked it, though:

You got to see the video of the ONE biker firing a shot; same thing the AP reported when they got to see the complete uncensored video from the Twin Peaks management.
You didnt get to see any of the ballistics reports that would say who killed who, nor any of the pole-camera video from the cameras the DPS set up beforehand.
You got to see just two biker clubs, surrendering to law-and-order. 
You didnt get to see all the Veterans clubs and the LE/FF MC (Law Enforcement/Fire Fighter Motorcycle Clubs) and family groups that were arrested. 

http://usat.ly/1NgYJyo


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 06, 2015, 01:56:09 pm
I have to agree with that.  There has apparently been far more effort in keeping witnesses quiet and stifling investigations into police activity that there has been action on criminal investigation. They have bullets in bodies. They have bullets in walls They have firearms and shell casings. They have surveillance videos and dozens of police as witnesses. Yet they can't figure this thing out??

Also - the deal they required people to sign to get our of jail was deemed hogwash. You can't require people to keep quiet and say you did everything right as a condition for release from unlawful detention...

Someone is clearly a murderer, or several someones. OR it was self defense. 6 months?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on November 08, 2015, 01:38:45 pm
Also - the deal they required people to sign to get our of jail was deemed hogwash. You can't require people to keep quiet and say you did everything right as a condition for release from unlawful detention...


"What do the papers say?"

     "They are merely a statement saying you have not been mistreated while you have been here"

"I cannot sign zee papers"

     "Unt why can not you sign zee paperz?

"Because you have broken both of my hands" 


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 26, 2015, 10:38:05 pm
Isn’t it hard to identify suppressed high-powered gunfire? Not for the biker community, many of whom are ex-military and have been around firearms a lot, Lori said. Speaking of that day in Waco, she said, “The Leatherneck Club was there. Different mom and pop groups. The Foreign Legion riders group. Many of them were veterans. You learn to differentiate.”
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/more-on-bear-kirschner-the-biker-who-was-gunned-down-in-waco.html/



Right after the May 17 motorcycle-gang shootout in Waco, this newspaper’s inclination was to believe law enforcers’ account that the nine deaths and 22 injuries were the result of hardened criminal thugs waging a deadly turf battle. But the longer this bizarre case plays out, the more credible the bikers look, and the more it appears that McLennan County officials have something to hide.
http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20151026-editorial-in-waco-case-biker-gangs-earn-more-trust-than-prosecutors.ece


Politicians and police in Waco appear to have arranged, encouraged and anticipated a confrontation between two antagonistic motorcycle clubs at a restaurant last May 17. Their intention was to catch red handed some members of those clubs committing various crimes of violence. It is a matter of irrefutable fact that violence did result from this prearranged affray. Autopsy reports and statements by witnesses imply that police using military weapons fatally wounded at least six people. Local police and politicians have deliberately lied about and obfuscated the basic facts of this tragic encounter since it occurred and as a result the people of this nation have been lied to and misinformed.
http://www.agingrebel.com/13676

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/candy-chand/waco-biker-injustice_b_8644676.html


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 30, 2015, 02:48:22 pm
I have to agree with that.  There has apparently been far more effort in keeping witnesses quiet and stifling investigations into police activity that there has been action on criminal investigation. They have bullets in bodies. They have bullets in walls They have firearms and shell casings. They have surveillance videos and dozens of police as witnesses. Yet they can't figure this thing out??




They are "magic bullets"....they just disappear into thin air once they are fired....



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on December 09, 2015, 04:46:55 pm

WACO, Texas (CNN) — Texas law enforcement officials are investigating what they say are new threats against officers from biker gangs in the wake of a recent shootout in Waco.




Oh no, yet another "Outlaw Biker Gangs Are Coming To Town To Kill All Police" bulletin; 
this time from a department that accidentally killed the hostage in a hostage standoff (which by some odd coincidence had been suing that very same department for brutality during a politically motivated (and failed) "drug raid" earlier):

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/local/2015/12/08/police-wary-retaliation-neenah-shooting/76988786/


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 12, 2015, 06:06:12 pm
Despite earlier denials by the Waco Police Department, ballistics reports revealed that four of the bikers killed in the Twin Peaks shooting were shot by the same caliber of rifle bullet used by Waco police on the day of the shooting.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/12/12/four-twin-peaks-bikers-shot-bullet-type-used-waco-police/

Ballistics reports reveal four of the bikers were killed by shots from .223 caliber rifles, according to an AP report published on KWTX in Waco. This is the type of rifle reportedly used by police on the day of the shooting involving the bikers who gathered at a planned political meeting at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco.
Two of the slain Twin Peaks Bikers bikers only had wounds from a .223 caliber weapon. Two other bikers had the .223 wounds along with wounds from other guns. A total of 20 bikers were wounded during the shooting.

In May, Breitbart Texas reported that Waco police spokesman Sergeant Patrick Swanton chastised CNN for reporting a source that claimed four of the victims had been shot by police. “There was a media outlet that was reporting that law enforcement killed four of the individuals at this scene Sunday afternoon,” Swanton said during the May press conference.” I will tell you, whoever told you that, that person belongs on “CSI” because the autopsies have not been completed and it is impossible at this point to determine that fact. I will tell you, is it possible? Yes. Is it a fact? No.”

“The information that is out there right now — if you got lucky and guessed that number, congratulations,” Swanton continued. “If you didn’t, shame on you for putting that information out there that may have been incorrect.”

The Washington Post identified CNN as the outlet stating, “CNN maybe? The 24-7 news outlet cited a ‘law enforcement source’ as saying that ‘preliminary information indicates that four of the bikers killed were killed by police gunfire.’”

Now the autopsy reports are out and it certainly appears the police sergeant, now running for sheriff against incumbent Sheriff Parnell McNamara, might owe CNN an apology.



Since the shootout, bikers from both gangs have spoken out, claiming that the unusually heavy presence of law enforcement made the situation worse. In October, footage from inside the Twin Peaks restaurant aired by CNN seemed to confirm Penn's reporting: the majority of the bikers weren't actively engaged in the gunfight; most were simply looking for cover.

http://www.gq.com/story/report-four-bikers-shot-in-the-texas-biker-gang-shoot-out-were-killed-by-a-gun-typically-used-by-police

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXMUO0F_C1s


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on December 13, 2015, 01:40:15 pm
There has apparently been far more effort in keeping witnesses quiet and stifling investigations into police activity that there has been action on criminal investigation. They have bullets in bodies. They have bullets in walls They have firearms and shell casings. They have surveillance videos and dozens of police as witnesses. Yet they can't figure this thing out??

The Associated Press must be champing at the bit because they have seen uncensored video, but arent allowed to show it, while prosecutors flout their own gag order to leak more suspiciously edited video to CNN.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 14, 2015, 08:47:54 am
The Associated Press must be champing at the bit because they have seen uncensored video, but arent allowed to show it, while prosecutors flout their own gag order to leak more suspiciously edited video to CNN.

Sadly, it is rare for their to be a government requested gag order in place that serves the public interest. I can't remember a time when the gag order was listed and I went, "oh, that was reasonable." Clearly that's possible, but it seems more often it is used to CYA.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 14, 2015, 10:36:54 pm
Sadly, it is rare for their to be a government requested gag order in place that serves the public interest. I can't remember a time when the gag order was listed and I went, "oh, that was reasonable." Clearly that's possible, but it seems more often it is used to CYA.



Patrick Jim Harris is far from the gang member authorities have portrayed him to be. In fact, he's pretty much the poster child of an all American kid: A 28-year-old grad student attending St. Edwards University, diligently working on his Master's Degree in counseling, while impressively pulling straight A's.

He's also a man of strong Catholic belief, whose road name happens to be "Saint" --a title not of his own choosing. It was a nick-name given to him by men and women from the homeless population he frequently assists, who refer to him as their "Sainted Guardian Angel."

And despite the official spin, Patrick's not anti-police. In actuality, he has multiple family members who are retired from Texas Law enforcement: (including his deceased, biological father).

Patrick's a proud member of the Grim Guardian's Motorcycle Club, an M.C. whose associates include active clergymen. His club's mission is to serve abused and foster children.

So far, not exactly the picture of a classic organized criminal, right? So how did Patrick, along with close to 200 innocent bikers, get caught-up in this nightmare?

In Patrick's situation, here's what occurred: Arriving at Twin Peaks to attend the meeting, he was swept-up in the mass arrest. Eventually, along with several others, he was released on bond.

But look out, because soon afterward, the police changed their minds, and a warrant was issued for his re-arrest. So, Patrick turned himself in. Only this time, authorities dramatically increased his bail to 2 million dollars.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/candy-chand/nightmare-in-waco-bikers-_b_8786502.html




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 15, 2015, 08:20:41 am
Bail is supposed to be set at an amount to encourage the individual to come back and face their charges. $2,000,000 per a person who turned themselves in seems insane.

Also,

Quote
the Mclellan County Grand Jury has handed down 106 biker indictments for organized crime with conspiracy to commit murder

SO basically everyone in a motorcycle club is "organized crime" and they were ALL conspiring to murder people? Worst. Conspiracy. Ever. Once more than 100 people are in on your secret plan to kill people, well, it isn't a very good secret. Grand juries would indict Kennedy's lapel pin for murder. A former federal prosecutor has several good write-ups on how grand juries actually work. (https://popehat.com/2014/02/27/the-kaley-forfeiture-decision-what-it-looks-like-when-the-feds-make-their-ham-sandwich/) It's a minor speed bump.

Lets put it this way, a grand jury does what the government tells it to do 99.995% of the time. So either our government is so good at what it does that it is right 99.995% of the time, or the system is a sham.

about 5/100,000. The mind struggles to find something else that reliable. I've lived in my current house for ~12 years. I turn my porch light on each night before I go to bed.  That's nearly 4,500 times. I know the bulb has burned out at least twice. I know we have had a few power outages. I feel confident in saying the failure rate of my light switch is 5/4,500, or 99.9%. When I flick that switch, I'm confident the light will come on. But, statistically, the government is 10 times more certain that whatever indictment they present will be successful as I am that the lights will come on when I hit that switch.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 19, 2015, 06:31:48 pm
Bail is supposed to be set at an amount to encourage the individual to come back and face their charges. $2,000,000 per a person who turned themselves in seems insane.

Also,

SO basically everyone in a motorcycle club is "organized crime" and they were ALL conspiring to murder people? Worst. Conspiracy. Ever. Once more than 100 people are in on your secret plan to kill people, well, it isn't a very good secret. Grand juries would indict Kennedy's lapel pin for murder. A former federal prosecutor has several good write-ups on how grand juries actually work. (https://popehat.com/2014/02/27/the-kaley-forfeiture-decision-what-it-looks-like-when-the-feds-make-their-ham-sandwich/) It's a minor speed bump.

Lets put it this way, a grand jury does what the government tells it to do 99.995% of the time. So either our government is so good at what it does that it is right 99.995% of the time, or the system is a sham.

about 5/100,000. The mind struggles to find something else that reliable. I've lived in my current house for ~12 years. I turn my porch light on each night before I go to bed.  That's nearly 4,500 times. I know the bulb has burned out at least twice. I know we have had a few power outages. I feel confident in saying the failure rate of my light switch is 5/4,500, or 99.9%. When I flick that switch, I'm confident the light will come on. But, statistically, the government is 10 times more certain that whatever indictment they present will be successful as I am that the lights will come on when I hit that switch.



Waco prosecutor convinces grand jury to indict 177 people for death of imaginary 10th victim

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Another-Twin-Peaks-biker-controversy-as-6708631.php

http://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2015/12/quanell-x-waco-cops-should-admit-shooting-bikers/





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 22, 2015, 10:02:08 am
I wonder how the Waco, TX Tourist Bureau is taking all this... I bet they are just swamped with tourist requests right about now....!

It is like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Somalia, and probably dozens of other places that I will never go to visit!!  And if I have to drive by, then it will be around on TX 6 frontage road.

 


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 09, 2016, 07:31:40 pm
The irrefutable fact is, the confrontation between (rival clubs) was contrived by multiple federal police forces to obtain predicate racketeering acts for a long-sought indictment of the Banditos. The skein of investigations that preceded the Twin Peaks massacre was not simply something called “Operation Texas Rocker.” There were, in fact, at least three, intertwined , federal investigations going back 34 months.

Nine people died, 20 were wounded and 186 were arrested as a result of an incredibly botched federal investigation.

http://www.agingrebel.com/13791








Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on January 12, 2016, 01:37:31 pm
The irrefutable fact is, the confrontation between (rival clubs) was contrived by multiple federal police forces to obtain predicate racketeering acts for a long-sought indictment of the Banditos. The skein of investigations that preceded the Twin Peaks massacre was not simply something called “Operation Texas Rocker.” There were, in fact, at least three, intertwined , federal investigations going back 34 months.

Nine people died, 20 were wounded and 186 were arrested as a result of an incredibly botched federal investigation.



But I have to admire the tenacity of renaming the "Twin Peaks Waco Biker Massacre" to something hip like "Operation Texas Rocker" without even mentioning the Twin Peaks Waco Biker Massacre in their self-aggrandizing report.








Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 15, 2016, 08:17:51 pm

Sand Springs biker waives arraignment in Waco shootings

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/usworld/sand-springs-biker-waives-arraignment-in-waco-shootings/article_c9ad9138-8aad-541c-9c61-2cf73a5eeae9.html




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 22, 2016, 07:36:32 pm
I have to agree with that.  There has apparently been far more effort in keeping witnesses quiet and stifling investigations into police activity that there has been action on criminal investigation. They have bullets in bodies. They have bullets in walls They have firearms and shell casings. They have surveillance videos and dozens of police as witnesses. Yet they can't figure this thing out??

Also - the deal they required people to sign to get our of jail was deemed hogwash. You can't require people to keep quiet and say you did everything right as a condition for release from unlawful detention...

Someone is clearly a murderer, or several someones. OR it was self defense. 6 months?



But they know exactly what happened.

They seized hundreds of cellphones, thousands of hours of video, and countless intercepted text messages that will never see the light of day.
Their snipers have likely watched their kills over and over with morbid satisfaction.

There will be Congressional hearings, but by then the careers that would have ended will be allowed to quietly retire with comfortable severance packages that most certainly will not include the prison terms they deserve.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 30, 2016, 10:17:12 pm
Turns out one of the warring "gangs" in Saturday's Colorado Motorcycle Expo shooting was a cop club

Police believe gunfire was exchanged and are also investigating whether other law enforcement officers from outside Denver were involved.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29453858/shootings-stabbings-reported-at-denver-coliseum

(http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2016/0130/20160130__CD31BIKERSHOOTING_AC27477x~p1.jpg)


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 01, 2016, 08:40:20 am
Their snipers have likely watched their kills over and over with morbid satisfaction.

There will be Congressional hearings, but by then the careers that would have ended will be allowed to quietly retire with comfortable severance packages that most certainly will not include the prison terms they deserve.

You, my friend, are starting to wonder into LaLa land. Now we have sniper kills? Let's find the guys that were killed with 308's to center mass, then we will start talking about snipers. Throw in a few, no doubt secret, Congressional hearings for the snipers just for good measure.

I share your suspicions. But there is a line between distrust of government and conspiracy theory.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on February 01, 2016, 09:38:31 am
Turns out one of the warring "gangs" in Saturday's Colorado Motorcycle Expo shooting was a cop club

Police believe gunfire was exchanged and are also investigating whether other law enforcement officers from outside Denver were involved.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29453858/shootings-stabbings-reported-at-denver-coliseum

(http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2016/0130/20160130__CD31BIKERSHOOTING_AC27477x~p1.jpg)

Here’s another account of what happened:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29456619/motorcycle-club-lawyer-members-attacked-by-rival-gangs

So what are a bunch of LEOs doing wearing double rocker patches with the MC patch?  That’s very clearly identification as an “outlaw” club.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on February 01, 2016, 01:22:57 pm

So what are a bunch of LEOs doing wearing double rocker patches with the MC patch?  That’s very clearly identification as an “outlaw” club.


It seems to be centered around a "Corrections Officer", but given their police officer status you could expect most if not all to be packing heat.

Stephen Stubbs, who represents the Mongols, told Denver7 members of the Iron Order (police motorcycle club) instigated the attack after one of them pulled a gun and threatened some of the Mongols.
But John Whitfield, the attorney representing the Iron Order, told Denver7’s Kyle Horan the scuffle began after one of the Mongols said a racial slur to an African American member of the Iron Order. Whitfield added the brawl then took place, and one member of the Iron Order pulled out a gun and started shooting, fearing for his life.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/denver/victim-in-colorado-motorcyle-expo-biker-club-shooting-identified-as-victor-mendoza


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on February 01, 2016, 03:54:14 pm
It seems to be centered around a "Corrections Officer", but given their police officer status you could expect most if not all to be packing heat.

Stephen Stubbs, who represents the Mongols, told Denver7 members of the Iron Order (police motorcycle club) instigated the attack after one of them pulled a gun and threatened some of the Mongols.
But John Whitfield, the attorney representing the Iron Order, told Denver7’s Kyle Horan the scuffle began after one of the Mongols said a racial slur to an African American member of the Iron Order. Whitfield added the brawl then took place, and one member of the Iron Order pulled out a gun and started shooting, fearing for his life.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/denver/victim-in-colorado-motorcyle-expo-biker-club-shooting-identified-as-victor-mendoza

Interesting to me that the Mongols were involved.  When I used to work on the front range from 1997 through 2000, I had a hobby restoring and dealing in antique Harley parts so I would go to the expo for the swap meet. 

In those days, it was mostly Bandidos and Sons of Silence running the front range, you really didn’t see Mongols out and about and I’d never heard of Iron Order until this morning.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Breadburner on February 01, 2016, 03:59:41 pm
Turns out one of the warring "gangs" in Saturday's Colorado Motorcycle Expo shooting was a cop club

Police believe gunfire was exchanged and are also investigating whether other law enforcement officers from outside Denver were involved.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29453858/shootings-stabbings-reported-at-denver-coliseum

(http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2016/0130/20160130__CD31BIKERSHOOTING_AC27477x~p1.jpg)

Wrong again [I used bad language and the moderator had to redact it].....Corrections officer.....But that doesn't fit your retarded mantra....


Adding an extra character doesn't change the meaning. It also doesn't change the personal and direct insult. Try to focus on issues, not insults. - Moderator


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 01, 2016, 08:02:06 pm
Wrong again .....Corrections officer.....But that doesn't fit your retarded mantra....


DENVER — A weekend brawl at a Denver motorcycle show that left one dead and seven others injured was between a club of armed off-duty law enforcement and another group, lawyers for both biker organizations said Sunday.
Lawyers believe Denver police are releasing few details because the Iron Order membership includes law enforcement officers.

http://gazette.com/attorney-feud-between-motorcycle-clubs-started-deadly-brawl-at-denver-coliseum/article/1568993

Only criminals believe law enforcement to be the bad guys so if you want to socialize with criminals or if you are a criminal don't come around us.
  --Iron Order website


(http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-02-01_14-09-48.jpg)

(http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-02-01_14-10-27.jpg)

http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.com/denver-motorcycle-expo-shooting-national-council-of-clubs-press-release/
http://www.agingrebel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Derick-Duran.jpg  

The shooter (pictured above with gun still in hand moments after the murder) is a Colorado Department of Corrections officer named Derrick “Kong” Duran. Duran lives in Longmont, Colorado and is the vice-president of the Firestone, Colorado chapter of the Iron Order. Duran shot a second Mongol in the stomach during the incident. That man remained in critical condition on Monday morning.

The fight began when intoxicated members of the Iron Order approached a tee-shirt booth operated by the Mongols and tried to intimidate the Mongols and their prospective patrons. Three Mongols asked the Iron Order members to move on. The Iron Order members shoved a Mongol and a fist fight ensued. Duran then brandished a handgun and threatened to shoot the three Mongols. Multiple sources have described Duran as drunk. When the three Mongols attempted to disarm Duran he shot two of them. Duran was detained for questioning by police but was not arrested.



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/01/31/deadly-brawl-at-denver-motorcycle-show-was-between-rival-clubs-and-one-of-them-consists-mostly-of-police-and-military-personnel



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 02, 2016, 08:10:02 am
Outlaw bikers registering with the Denver Convention Center to have a T-Shirt booth and Law Enforcement Officers setting up an "outlaw" motorcycle club...

So the drunk and unruly police club with hidden firearms goes up to the registered T-shirt booth of the outlaw motorcycle club...

wait, what?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 02, 2016, 10:11:58 am

So what are a bunch of LEOs doing wearing double rocker patches with the MC patch?  That’s very clearly identification as an “outlaw” club.



Asked and answered.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 02, 2016, 07:54:41 pm
Outlaw bikers registering with the Denver Convention Center to have a T-Shirt booth and Law Enforcement Officers setting up an "outlaw" motorcycle club...

So the drunk and unruly police club with hidden firearms goes up to the registered T-shirt booth of the outlaw motorcycle club...

wait, what?

"Feared for my life" is the universal get-out-of-jail-free card for cops, and might explain why no one has been arrested.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on February 02, 2016, 08:56:37 pm
"Feared for my life" is the universal get-out-of-jail-free card for cops, and might explain why no one has been arrested.


Drunk and in possession of a firearm is a free trip to jail for anyone else.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 03, 2016, 08:44:21 am
Drunk and in possession of a firearm is a free trip to jail for anyone else.

There's an argument that stand your ground doesn't apply if you are intoxicated. The reasoning being that you 1) shouldn't have a firearm in your possession while intoxicated (a crime in itself) and 2) shouldn't reasonably rely on the judgment of an intoxicated person to use deadly force. I don't do criminal defense work, so I can't pull the case on point --- but the logic is sound in my eyes.

Can you fathom this going the other way? 

"An intoxicated member of a motorcycle gang approached a law enforcement booth at a motorcycle expo and started a confrontation. As the confrontation escalated the law enforcement officials encouraged the motorcycle gang members to move on. Instead of moving on, the gang members continue to escalate the situation until one of the intoxicated gang members pulled a firearm and began shooting members of law enforcement. One member who was manning the booth was killed, another is in critical condition.

No charged were filed against the intoxicated gang member because the investigation is ongoing.

Law enforcement officials then drew their own firearms and heroically execute the entirety of the rival gang criminal gang. Any survivors of the criminal gang will be charged with felony murder. The surviving law enforcement officers receive their medals this afternoon."


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 03, 2016, 11:05:08 am
There's an argument that stand your ground doesn't apply if you are intoxicated. The reasoning being that you 1) shouldn't have a firearm in your possession while intoxicated (a crime in itself) and 2) shouldn't reasonably rely on the judgment of an intoxicated person to use deadly force. I don't do criminal defense work, so I can't pull the case on point --- but the logic is sound in my eyes.

Can you fathom this going the other way?  

"An intoxicated member of a motorcycle gang approached a law enforcement booth at a motorcycle expo and started a confrontation. As the confrontation escalated the law enforcement officials encouraged the motorcycle gang members to move on. Instead of moving on, the gang members continue to escalate the situation until one of the intoxicated gang members pulled a firearm and began shooting members of law enforcement. One member who was manning the booth was killed, another is in critical condition.

No charged were filed against the intoxicated gang member because the investigation is ongoing.

Law enforcement officials then drew their own firearms and heroically execute the entirety of the rival gang criminal gang. Any survivors of the criminal gang will be charged with felony murder. The surviving law enforcement officers receive their medals this afternoon."

But CF, you are forgetting what Vashta and Lisa Ling told us about the Mongols. They are just a bunch of fuzzy teddy bears that do benevolent things like toys for tot's runs, and they are just a bunch of guys that would not harm anyone and just enjoy riding as a group. Their life style is just a big misunderstanding.  ::) (sarcasm intended)

Quote


EX-ATF agent tells CNN he helped agency incite wars between motorcycle clubs:
https://www.facebook.com/Ling/posts/10153361678443323

Just wanted to post this exchange that I had on FB with a former federal law enforcement agent who says that he, along with the BET--Biker Enforcement Team, incited war between the Mongols and Hells Angels that lead to a number of deaths.

Dear Lisa,
I see you're doing a segment on the MONGOLS MC, I am a retired Law Enforcement person who was in the BET Unit=Biker Enforcement Team. I testified at two RICO cases involving the Hells Angels. FYI it was the Dago Unit of the BET team that had targeted the HA's and Mongols to war with each other in he early 70's as our unit tried to get the HA's and Mongols to go to war. Sad to say it worked and Jingles and Red were shot dead on the freeway so long ago.

You are an excellent reporter and hope that on your MONGOLS story dig into there DAGO chapter and how they and the HA's went to war you will see it was due to our BET Team

(Lisa Ling) Do you regret what happened with DAGO? Just curious

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, so very much. One MONGOL i arrested Brant Rudolph Honkanen was the one we (BET) used to get the HA's and Mongols to war, I feel we were deeply responsible for the (BET) HA's Hit on Jingles and Red in DAGO. Then we did some deplorable things from one state to another all in the name of Justice, I recently told George Christie of the HA's who is now a CNN biker consultant , he knew we BET were coming after so many bikers with false evidence. So yes i regret it all, the only thing i do not regret is being able to return Sonny Barger of the HA's his late fathers Bible back to him at the RICO case so long ago. It was a very hard time to be a " Corrupt" cop as a ruse to set up people, make false arrest and ruin innocent peoples lives i will always regret.

(Lisa Ling) Thank you very much for your candor Scott. I met a lot of decent, hard working Mongols while with them. Sure, they have a violent history, but people don't know the whole story.

(Scott Barnes) ·Yes, you are very spot on, I too know many Hell's Angels , Mongols and other MC's who do plenty of good, have integrity, and help many in need. I think our government has created an atmosphere of fear to the American People on them. Sad to say i too was part of this mongering that rumor . Glad I'm retired and know the truth.

(Scott Barnes) · Hopefully tonight's show will show the American people many members of the club are caring wonderful decent people.

Dear Lisa,
You did one incredible job on The Mongol Nation, you aired things never before known. Your segment was a home run and actually touched and changed many people who sent me messages on your show.

Even many Feds who taped it and watched it were surprised , you really did a great job. Glad to see this new younger group of club members are much more respectful, honorable and caring than when i went after them in the 70's.

So happy to see the change is positive and is welcomed I hope the Feds will stop targeting them and look at wall street. Thank You for a job well done.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 03, 2016, 11:09:41 am
There's an argument that stand your ground doesn't apply if you are intoxicated. The reasoning being that you 1) shouldn't have a firearm in your possession while intoxicated (a crime in itself) and 2) shouldn't reasonably rely on the judgment of an intoxicated person to use deadly force. I don't do criminal defense work, so I can't pull the case on point --- but the logic is sound in my eyes.

Can you fathom this going the other way? 

"An intoxicated member of a motorcycle gang approached a law enforcement booth at a motorcycle expo and started a confrontation. As the confrontation escalated the law enforcement officials encouraged the motorcycle gang members to move on. Instead of moving on, the gang members continue to escalate the situation until one of the intoxicated gang members pulled a firearm and began shooting members of law enforcement. One member who was manning the booth was killed, another is in critical condition.

No charged were filed against the intoxicated gang member because the investigation is ongoing.

Law enforcement officials then drew their own firearms and heroically execute the entirety of the rival gang criminal gang. Any survivors of the criminal gang will be charged with felony murder. The surviving law enforcement officers receive their medals this afternoon."


Last time I read Oklahoma's law there was something about intoxication nullifying your right to carry...and there were criminal penalties associated with.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 03, 2016, 11:12:40 am
But CF, you are forgetting what Vashta and Lisa Ling told us about the Mongols. They are just a bunch of fuzzy teddy bears that do benevolent things like toys for tot's runs, and they are just a bunch of guys that would not harm anyone and just enjoy riding as a group. Their life style is just a big misunderstanding.  ::) (sarcasm intended)



Mongols do the toy run thing.  But they are first and foremost, like Hell's Angels and various other 1%er's, a criminal organization.  Doesn't mean LE has the right to provide summary execution. 


They should at least get a fair trial, then hang' em!!





Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 03, 2016, 02:04:35 pm
Last time I read Oklahoma's law there was something about intoxication nullifying your right to carry...and there were criminal penalties associated with.

The laws on carrying a weapon are ignored by most people. Criminals, sure. But also by most people with permits. My friends and even family who have licenses, even those who are police officers, regularly carry weapons while intoxicated, in arenas, bars, concerts, etc. All against the law of course.

21 OS 1289.9
Quote
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry or use shotguns, rifles or pistols in any circumstances while under the influence of beer, intoxicating liquors or any hallucinogenic, or any unlawful or unprescribed drug, and it shall be unlawful for any person to carry or use shotguns, rifles or pistols when under the influence of any drug prescribed by a licensed physician if the aftereffects of such consumption affect mental, emotional or physical processes to a degree that would result in abnormal behavior. Any person convicted of a violation of the provisions of this section shall be punished as provided in Section 1289.15 of this title.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69765

You also can't carry anywhere that serves alcohol, even if you aren't drinking...

21 OS 1272.1
Quote
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry or possess any weapon designated in Section 1272 of this title in any establishment where low-point beer, as defined by Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or alcoholic beverages, as defined by Section 506 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, are consumed. . . .

Provided further, nothing in this section shall be interpreted to authorize any peace officer in actual physical possession of a weapon to consume low-point beer or alcoholic beverages, except in the authorized line of duty as an undercover officer.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69741

Even a police officer is not allowed to be in actual physical possession of a weapon and consume alcohol. I assume Colorado has similar laws in this regard, or even stricter. All that to say, our friend the motorcycle biker gang shouldn't have had weapons at an event serving alcohol if they were off duty. They should never have a firearm if they are intoxicated.

Do you think my friends who carry would have just been let go?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 03, 2016, 03:37:56 pm
The laws on carrying a weapon are ignored by most people. Criminals, sure. But also by most people with permits. My friends and even family who have licenses, even those who are police officers, regularly carry weapons while intoxicated, in arenas, bars, concerts, etc. All against the law of course.


Do you think my friends who carry would have just been let go?



No they would not have just been let go.  Double standard hard at work....


It's one of those things like drunk driving - it's a misdemeanor in most cases, so who cares....

Even drunk driving and killing someone is not really considered any big deal - reference the high esteem that Laura Bush has in the country as a whole, even though she killed her high school 'sweetheart' driving drunk.  (Yeah, I know...big reach...)






Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on February 03, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

EX-ATF agent tells CNN he helped agency incite wars between motorcycle clubs:
https://www.facebook.com/Ling/posts/10153361678443323


And of course the irony is that the founders and current president of the Iron Order motorcycle gang is ATF.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Breadburner on February 05, 2016, 06:46:06 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el4qyJFJmbI#t=158

This might make spammys head explode....


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 06, 2016, 04:28:03 pm
Even a police officer is not allowed to be in actual physical possession of a weapon and consume alcohol. I assume Colorado has similar laws in this regard, or even stricter. All that to say, our friend the motorcycle biker gang shouldn't have had weapons at an event serving alcohol if they were off duty. They should never have a firearm if they are intoxicated.

Do you think my friends who carry would have just been let go?


"It's almost like they are playing dress-up on the weekend and acting out what their perception of an outlaw gang is," said David Devereaux, a spokesman for the National Council of Clubs, which represents hundreds of motorcycle groups. "They create aggressive situations with other motorcycle clubs in opposition to the culture."
No one has been arrested (in last weeks Denver homicide), adding to the frustration of other groups that complain Iron Order members pick fights, then use their law enforcement connections to avoid prosecution.


https://www.policeone.com/off-duty/articles/71399006-No-arrests-after-Denver-brawl-between-biker-clubs-off-duty-LEOs/





Iron Order TRU Training


The confrontation in Denver last Saturday that led to the murder of Mongol Motorcycle Club patch holder Victor “Nubs” Mendoza by Iron Order Motorcycle Club member Derrick “Kong” Duran, was not merely premeditated but also rehearsed.

The Iron Order includes a “Training and Response Unit,” which the club calls TRU. It exists to prepare club members for confrontations with club outsiders and subsequent interviews with police. TRU members wear a Maltese cross on their vests that includes the letters “T,” “R” and “U” and the number “915” on the arms of the cross. They are typically policemen and they report directly to the club’s international sergeant at arms.

According to Iron Order club documents, “The TRU member must be telephone and email responsive ALWAYS. A TRU member cannot be out of touch for more than 30 MINUTES. This may sound unreasonable, but I wish to place you into the mind of the member who is having a major confrontation with another club or confusing law enforcement and places a call, which is not answered. That is unacceptable.”

According to a PowerPoint presentation the club uses to orient new members, “TRU was designed to educate brothers of the Iron Order MC on the Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) regarding dealing with the: Sidewalk Commandos, 1%ers, Police” and “Sweet Butts.”

The presentation exemplifies the cartoonishly macho posturing that differentiates the Iron Order from the motorcycle clubs it seeks to dominate. The slide show defines “Sidewalk Commandos”  as “weekend warriors that do not wear a patch and hang around clubs or just think they are close to clubs. They love to start sh$t, and are more like women than actual men. They enjoy making sh$t up between two clubs just so they can watch the clubs kick the sh$t out of each other. They usually do not get involved in the altercation but sit back and enjoy the show. These mutts need to be shut down very quickly and in some case harshly.”

The orientation does not commit to writing what Iron Order officers mean by “harshly.”

In a comment published on The Aging Rebel on January 26, four days before the confrontation in Denver, Iron Order international vice-president Michael “Cgar” Crouse wrote, “All the sidewalk commandos here do is instigate until a situation arises that results in someone getting hurt or losing their lives. The hater pages and (The Aging Rebel) are directly responsible for that.” Crouse is a Lieutenant Colonel assigned to the U.S. Army Reserve Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. In the past, Crouse has used his military connections to reassign and move Iron Order members suspected of crimes and to gather personal information on veterans and reservists he considers to be enemies of the Iron Order.

The PowerPoint presentation for new members also defines, “Biker chicks – the other sidewalk commando,” as objective enemies of the club. “Sweet butts, biker chicks, biker whores and so forth can be a huge pain in the as in the MC world,” the presentation explains. “They love to watch MCs fight each other, they love the attention. Recommend (sic) you do not involve yourselves with women from other clubs. Do not listen to the sh$t biker whores spew from their mouths If a biker whore says hey we can go to this outlaw bar because I know Outlaw Jim – do not listen to hear (sic) – she is setting you up for a bad night.”

Most of the orientation for new members by TRU members involves role play exercises that help new members rehearse confrontations with members of other clubs and the resulting interactions with police. "An attack on one brother, is an attack on us all.”

The Iron Order also distributes a written list of “Unwritten Rules” that, together with numerous confrontations with outsiders in the last two years, betrays what TRU training is actually about.

Rule eleven in that list states: “When one brother is assaulted every brother responds in force with no mercy. There is no quarter given. The brothers do whatever they have to do to eliminate the violence and neutralize the threat. The aggressor or aggressors are sent away with a strong message to everyone they ever meet to never pick hands up to a brother of the IOMC for any reason.”

TRU members repeatedly rehearse and critique other members, not just new members, on how to behave in a confrontation that will end with the use of deadly force and what to say to police afterward.

An Iron Order “friends and foe” directive also distributed to new members states, for example, the Outlaws Motorcycle Club "has been an adversary since day one with the IOMC. They have constantly been a challenge about territory and what they have said is ‘disrespect’ because we do not comply to protocol and do not ask them permission to do anything. Caution should always be taken whenever there is an Outlaw around. Do not ignore them and do not say anything negative to anyone outside of the IOMC about them. If they outnumber you it is best to leave in a non aggressive way showing no fear. If they come up to you, offer to shake their hand and use a proper introduction for an MC. That means you say your name, your office and Iron Order MC. He will do the same. They spin all encounters or statements and lie to meet whatever goals they want. Never trust them to be truthful. If the OL starts intimidation tactics by asking, “Who the fu@k are you guys?” or “Who gave you permission to wear those colors” etc. you need to refer them to your President or Regional Director. They only fight if they outnumber you or have no chance of losing a fight.”



(http://www.agingrebel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/TRU.jpg)



Cook, who also serves as a police detective in Missouri, called the altercation part of the Iron Order's "ongoing saga."
"There have been a lot of little episodes here and there involving these guys," Cook added.

Founded in 2004 by a former Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent, the Iron Order has been rapidly expanding. It's known for having a base of law enforcement and former military members.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on February 08, 2016, 08:18:44 pm
Several reasons the patch-holder lifestyle never appealed to me:

Why ride around looking for conflict?
Why would I give the title to my hard-earned motorcycle to a gang of criminals?
Meth is hard on the teeth, family, and well- I just didn’t have 20 years of my life to devote to it.
Riding like an a**hole at high speeds through traffic just isn’t my thing.
Being told by someone else when and how to ride at high speeds through traffic really never appealed to me.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2016, 08:32:10 am
Several reasons the patch-holder lifestyle never appealed to me:

Why ride around looking for conflict?
Why would I give the title to my hard-earned motorcycle to a gang of criminals?
Meth is hard on the teeth, family, and well- I just didn’t have 20 years of my life to devote to it.
Riding like an a**hole at high speeds through traffic just isn’t my thing.
Being told by someone else when and how to ride at high speeds through traffic really never appealed to me.



You solid individualist, you!!


Used to be a bike shop at 11th and Utica called T-Town Motorcycles that was the clubhouse for local 1%ers.   Was invited to get the bike worked on a time or two - seemed to be more an interview process - but since Myers-Duren was right around the corner, I declined.  Didn't see any of the point of all that's on your list.

I did get one of their t-shirts, though, 'cause I liked the design on the front.  Probably still have it around somewhere....bet it won't fit now!




Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 09, 2016, 07:29:35 pm
Quote
They spin all encounters or statements and lie to meet whatever goals they want. Never trust them to be truthful. If the OL starts intimidation tactics by asking, “Who the fu@k are you guys?” or “Who gave you permission to wear those colors” etc. you need to refer them to your President or Regional Director. They only fight if they outnumber you or have no chance of losing a fight.”[/i]

They are such hypocrites.

You know its a different world now when the Hells Angels are out-thugged by a cop gang.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on February 12, 2016, 02:06:23 pm

Used to be a bike shop at 11th and Utica called T-Town Motorcycles
I did get one of their t-shirts, though, 'cause I liked the design on the front.  Probably still have it around somewhere....bet it won't fit now!



If you ever find it, please post a picture of the art.  Blast from the past.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 15, 2016, 09:31:38 am

If you ever find it, please post a picture of the art.  Blast from the past.


Here is the "flavor", but on a tshirt in darker colors.


http://www.rudedogleather.com/embroidered_patches/skull_patches/batwing.html


Will look around for the shirt....



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 20, 2016, 06:51:39 pm
There was another Iron Order Motorcycle Club involved shooting last night, at the gas pumps of the Kickapoo Convenience Store near Harrah, Oklahoma. Harrah is about 25 miles east of Oklahoma City. The pumps are about a hundred yards from the Kickapoo Casino Harrah.

Shootings involving the Iron Order are becoming increasingly frequent. Three weeks ago, an Iron Order member and Colorado prison guard named Derrick “Kong” Duran murdered one member of the Mongols Motorcycle Club and seriously wounded another at the climax of an altercation at the Colorado Motorcycle Exposition in Denver. Duran, of Longmont, Colorado, is the vice-president of the Firestone, Colorado chapter of the Iron Order. He has not been charged with any crime which is typical of Iron Order shootings.

The Iron Order, made up of sworn peace officers, trains members to use deadly force against members of other motorcycle clubs. Police officers within the club coach other members about what to say to investigating police officers after these shootings. The club has its own “Division of Legal Affairs.” The “Director” of that “Division” is a small town accident lawyer named John C. “Shark” Whitfield. Whitfield flies to the scenes of these crimes, speaks on behalf of the gunmen, lobbies local police, and makes exculpatory statements to the local press. He is good at it. Iron Order members typically explain to police that they are a “law abiding motorcycle club” with many police members and portray themselves as victims. It works.
What Happened

According to both local sources and local news accounts, last night’s shooting involved three men.  Lincoln County Sheriff Charlie Dougherty told television station KWTV that all three men opened fire. One man, a member of the Oklahoma City based Rednecks Motorcycle Club, was shot in the leg. His injury is not life threatening.

According to a local source, as the Redneck passed “a group” of Iron Order riders on Oklahoma Route 62 one of those riders swerved out in front of the Redneck. The source believes that members of the Iron Order followed the Redneck to the gas pumps. According to Sheriff Dougherty, “A couple of them blocked off a guy and an altercation took place. And then from that point it became a gun battle.”

Aerial footage showed five motorcycles at the shooting scene. Two of the motorcycles were overturned.

The shooting is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, Lincoln and Pottawatomie County Sheriffs Deputies and Kickapoo Tribal Police.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 09, 2016, 06:45:48 pm
Dashcam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WncSEUxGzNo


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 23, 2016, 06:20:59 pm
Quote
(http://www.motorcycleprofilingproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-02-01_14-09-48.jpg)
The shooter (pictured above with gun still in hand moments after the murder) is a Colorado Department of Corrections officer named Derrick “Kong” Duran. Duran lives in Longmont, Colorado and is the vice-president of the Firestone, Colorado chapter of the Iron Order.


The decision not to prosecute Derrick Duran, a member of the Iron Order Motorcycle Club made up mostly of police and military, added to the frustration of other biker groups that complain the club's members pick fights, then use their law enforcement connections to avoid punishment.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/charges-prison-guard-killed-biker-denver-brawl-38510407



DENVER -- No charges will be filed against an off-duty Colorado Department of Corrections employee who killed a man during a brawl at the Colorado Motorcycle Expo that left several others injured, the Denver District Attorney's Office announced Tuesday.
Victor Mendoza, 46, was killed by a gunshot wound during a fight between two motorcycle clubs at the Denver Coliseum on Jan. 30 and his death was ruled a homicide, the Denver medical examiner said.
Officer Derrick Duran fired the first shot, injuring one person. Within a minute, Mendoza shot at Duran, grazing his torso and hitting another man behind Duran. Duran then fatally shot Mendoza.

The Denver Police Department conducted hundreds of hours investigating the brawl and presented it to the district attorney's office on Monday as a first-degree murder case, Cmdr. Ron Saunier said at a news conference.
"(T)he legal review concluded that there is no likelihood of a conviction due to the self-defense claim of Mr. Duran," the DA's office said in a news release.

Duran is a member of the Iron Order club whose membership is mostly from law enforcement agencies.


(DENVER, Colo) - The Denver District Attorney’s office announced yesterday that no charges will be filed against “an off-duty Colorado Department of Corrections employee” who killed Victor Mendoza after provoking a conflict at the Colorado Motorcycle Expo on January 30th of this year.
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/april232016/denver-biker-murder-dd.php



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 01, 2016, 09:44:26 pm
Erato said Funk had a concealed-carry permit for a gun, but Erato doesn’t understand why Funk wouldn’t comply with police commands, as claimed by police.
Police Chief Wilkinson said between 75-80 officers were on the scene.





Dashcam Shows Neenah Police Shoot Hostage Michael Funk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPu-kBh1gkw


The video indicates that police did not warn Funk before they lit him up. The video also shows that police left Funk lying in an alley without medical aid while he died.

Neenah Police Chief Kevin Wilkinson immediately began to diminish the video with rhetoric. He told The Associated Press, “It certainly appears from the video that there was no warning given…There is no requirement that a warning be given, either by law or policy” despite earlier claiming the victim "disobeyed orders."

When police killed him, Funk was a party to a lawsuit against Neenah and its police department. According to that suit, a Swat team executed a search warrant on Eagle Nation on September 21, 2012 in hopes of finding “a complex drug manufacturing and distribution operation."
The suit alleged the city was trying to “force Eagle Nation Cycles out of business. Eagle Nation Cycles is located on a prime piece of property located in a developmental district of downtown. Finding a large cache of drugs would have resulted in an easy acquisition of property for the city.”











According to the lawsuit, Funk: “posed no threat to Officers Hoffer and Ross or to anyone else as he attempted to escape. Nevertheless, within seconds after Michael exited the shop, Officers Hoffer and Ross emerged from their protected position and shot Michael multiple times without giving him any warning of their presence, any warning that he might be shot, or any other instruction or communication of any sort. Many of the shots fired by Officers Hoffer and Ross struck Michael in the back. Michael fell in the Alley. After Michael fell, he was still alive. Officer Ross then shot Michael twice more. Michael lay unattended in the alley next to the Shop’s rear entrance for approximately 30 minutes after he was shot. Officers Hoffer and Ross made no attempt to ascertain Michael’s condition or to procure medical assistance and help for him, even though they learned within four minutes after the shooting that Michael was not the hostage-taker. Michael died while lying in the Alley. 

“Officers Hoffer and Ross concluded that none of the persons in the shop were hostages and that all of the persons in the shop had set an ambush for the police and posed a threat to the police."

Michael Funk lay unattended in the alley for more than 30 minutes after being shot. During that period, the police made no effort to reach Michael or to provide help or medical attention, even though a protective armored vehicle was available for use in reaching Michael and even though they learned within four minutes after the shooting that Michael was not the hostage-taker.
http://www.agingrebel.com/14465



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on May 14, 2016, 01:24:02 pm
Spotted this on CNN, wrapped in "Sons of Anarchy" graphics for fear effect.  They promo'd it as the "bloodiest day in Waco history" so it already seems a bit fact-challenged.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/05/06/exp-cnn-creative-marketing-cnn-special-report-biker-brawl.cnn


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Conan71 on May 14, 2016, 10:12:41 pm
They promo'd it as the "bloodiest day in Waco history"

How many got turned to ashes in the Branch Davidian debacle?


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 16, 2016, 01:19:29 am
How many got turned to ashes in the Branch Davidian debacle?

That was 23 years ago in the last century when the writer was single digits in age and is meaningless ancient history to the writer.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on May 16, 2016, 01:09:42 pm
That was 23 years ago in the last century when the writer was single digits in age and is meaningless ancient history to the writer.


What I dont expect CNN to say:  "Gee we were sure taken for a ride by the guy in the pretty uniform who was running for office and just killed a bunch of people in a botched sting."

(https://tribcw33.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/waco.jpg?w=800)













Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 17, 2016, 07:14:04 pm
Quote

What I dont expect CNN to say:  "Gee we were sure taken for a ride by the guy in the pretty uniform who was running for office and just killed a bunch of people in a botched sting."

(https://tribcw33.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/waco.jpg?w=800)


Waco PD uniform, automatic weapon, silencer...  Nothing to see here.




WACO - Rain or shine, Yvonne Reeves visits the makeshift shrine and sits, sometimes for hours, a few feet from where her son drew his last breaths.

She combs through the rolling papers, wooden cross and other offerings to the dead left at the shrine, and calls Waco police detectives regularly with a message.
"Are you ready to tell me who killed my son?"

After a year, no trial dates have been set for the 157 people later indicted, despite pleas from defense lawyers for their day in court.

Authorities still have not spelled out who among the bikers is believed to have shot, stabbed or punched another, and who may have been killed or wounded by police.
The names of the officers involved in the shooting remain secret, and officials won't say if their actions were ever reviewed by internal affairs or a grand jury.

"Most of the accused lost their jobs, can't get another job," she said. "Some lost their homes, lost their purpose. Imagine watching your friends getting shot at, some dying right in front of you; then imagine being held in jail on a $1 million bond facing life in prison for some contrived conspiracy to commit the murder and aggravated assault of those friends."





12 key unanswered questions Waco biker case
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/narco-confidential/article/12-Unanswered-Questions-in-Waco-Twin-Peaks-Biker-7467475.php



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 20, 2016, 06:40:37 pm
How can they drag this out more than a year?    The corrupt Waco prosecutors obviously aren't hurting for money:

According to the Waco Tribune-Herald, the motorcycles and other vehicles that were seized at the crime scene were expected to be auctioned off by the county as they are considered to be contraband associated with a crime.


In other words, they made a killing off of this killing.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 27, 2016, 06:34:31 pm
ATF Agent Mathew Horace describes motorcycle clubs:  "Not every member of the organization is an outlaw, but certainly there are members of the organizations that purport and commit criminal acts."    http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1605/15/ndaysun.01.html

Wait a second... How many police departments did he just describe?



Waco biker massacre in a nutshell: A joint task force made up of ATF, DPS and Waco police planned to capitalize on a dispute between motorcycle clubs over the use of a "Texas" patch as a part of "Operation Texas Rocker."

The operation would culminate with furtively-planned confrontation between two "outlaw" clubs at a political gathering at a crowded restaurant, where the heroes would swoop down and arrest the brawling bikers...but their hubris and incompetence allowed the plan to quickly spiral out of control.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 25, 2016, 06:41:33 pm
Last week, the two corrupt Waco cops currently being sued for false arrest in 13 civil rights cases in federal court in Austin begged District Court Judge Sam Sparks to freeze the case until all the state criminal cases associated with the Twin Peaks biker brawl on May 17, 2015 are completed.

The two corrupt Waco cops are retiring Police Chief Brent Stroman and Detective Manuel Chavez. They, along with McLennan County District Attorney Abelino Reyna and “John Doe, an employee of the Texas Department of Public Safety,” are being sued for false arrest. And last week their lawyers, Charlie and Mike from a general practice firm in a Waco shopping center named Haley and Olsen, argued “that a false arrest claim should be stayed until resolution of the criminal charges, as until that time it may be difficult to determine the relation between the two.”

The rub here is statute of limitations on false arrest claims. If the current and future complainants are to sue the city, county and state, they have to do it in the next 11 months. And before they can sue city hall, they must have “evidence of an official or unofficial policy of a widespread pattern or practice of unconstitutional violations.” That’s what Charlie and Mike are really trying to stop. And it is now up to Judge Sparks to decide whether Waco, McLennan County and the state of Texas should be allowed to get away with it.


http://www.agingrebel.com/14346


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 09, 2017, 06:15:10 pm
More bikers sue in federal court over Twin Peaks arrests (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/more-bikers-sue-in-federal-court-over-twin-peaks-arrests/article_e273cc75-d6ba-5267-ba23-52154e55d65d.html)


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 22, 2017, 06:18:01 pm
The Nine FBI Informants Running The Show (http://www.agingrebel.com/15190)


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2017, 08:35:19 am
The Nine FBI Informants Running The Show (http://www.agingrebel.com/15190)


So  I went to that web site to see what was said - and in the little ad on the right side was a link to Foster the People - Pumped Up Kicks....  Geez...strangely, somehow seemed to fit.



"sovereign citizen movement" – which believes free men can ignore the laws they don’t like....

Yeah, right.  ID 10 T's.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 24, 2017, 09:37:34 pm

"sovereign citizen movement" – which believes free men can ignore the laws they don’t like....

Yeah, right.  ID 10 T's.



The vast majority of people at Twin Peaks were arrested to silence criticism of a Task Force action that went terribly wrong.
They were prepaired for talks about upcoming safety legislation, planning Christmas parties, eating BBQ and riding their bikes in a beautiful day, but got caught up in ATF's "Operation Texas Rocker" that was a poorly orchestrated confrontation between two of the larger motorcycle clubs in the state.

These people lost their jobs, homes, cars, etc. to uncaring prosecutors and corrupt judges who wanted to create a false narrative to cover their incompetent tracks.  It wasnt a "sovereign citizen movement" but rather people trying to work within a system that betrayed them.

There were bad players sure.  Given the numbers its a statistical likelyhood, but charging witnesses with the same carbon-copy indictments as the outlaws sets a bad precedent for justice in America.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 07:51:46 am
No one really cares any more - that events time has passed...may as well let it go.   The Sound Bite has moved on...



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: erfalf on April 25, 2017, 08:04:29 am
Watched the "Oklahoma City" documentary on Netflix last night, then followed it up with one specifically about Ruby Ridge. Aside from the incessant use of the phrase "right-wing", I have to say, and this may not be copacetic, but I found it difficult not to sympathize with the Weaver family of Ruby Ridge. That was some messed up stuff going on up there.

And I just kept thinking about how I hear so much that we shouldn't be poking our business in other countries affairs for fear of retaliation. However, when it comes to domestics, we seem to be perfectly content with using the heavy hand of the law to put all the pressure in the world on people that for the most part would go unnoticed in society as they are basically trying to escape society.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2017, 08:43:46 am
Watched the "Oklahoma City" documentary on Netflix last night, then followed it up with one specifically about Ruby Ridge. Aside from the incessant use of the phrase "right-wing", I have to say, and this may not be copacetic, but I found it difficult not to sympathize with the Weaver family of Ruby Ridge. That was some messed up stuff going on up there.

And I just kept thinking about how I hear so much that we shouldn't be poking our business in other countries affairs for fear of retaliation. However, when it comes to domestics, we seem to be perfectly content with using the heavy hand of the law to put all the pressure in the world on people that for the most part would go unnoticed in society as they are basically trying to escape society.


True.   Ya don't always have to mess with people just because they are a little bit different.  But that is not what our country is all about - we are meddlers, busy-bodies, snoops, and just like to put our noses into other people's business.  Don't see that changing any time soon.


As for 'right wing' - well, sometimes there is truly the most appropriate phrase/word for a thing - and that is one of them.  Don't forget our very own, home grown, Elohim City!!

Left-wing is another.  Equally bad when done to the extreme.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on April 25, 2017, 09:03:59 am
we seem to be perfectly content with using the heavy hand of the law to put all the pressure in the world on people that for the most part would go unnoticed in society as they are basically trying to escape society.

Not one of these people have had a trial. 
Most have been bankrupted while "the authorities" rake in overtime. 
And thats just the ones who werent members of a "gang"


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 13, 2017, 07:06:44 pm
In the days after Waco, numerous witnesses alleged that there were police snipers present at the scene and the police have denied that. At a news conference about a month after the bloodbath, on June 12, 2015, police chief Brent Stroman said, “First of all we did not have counter…we did not have snipers or counter snipers deployed.” There is video of him saying that.
Most reporters took him at his word and nobody questioned exactly who he meant by “we.”

After the Twin Peaks brawl, numerous veterans who were there also said they thought they heard “suppressed” rifle fire. Suppressors are sometimes called silencers.

But there certainly was at least one, unusual sniper rifle at the scene and the proof has been in plain site for two years. The proof is this photograph, which was produced by and is copyrighted by the British news agency Reuters. The image belongs to Reuters and it is reproduced here because this page thinks its reproduction is a fair use. The photograph has already been published at least five times – three times without a credit: In African Seer, the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Conservative Tree House, Bearing Arms and The Daily Mail.


(http://www.agingrebel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/rifle.jpg)

The mature man in the photograph, walking next to an armored vehicle deployed to the Twin Peaks before anyone was shot, is carrying what multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel (http://www.agingrebel.com/15310) is an M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System manufactured by the Knight’s Armament Company. The same sources have said that this rifle appears to have “a ported and internally suppressed barrel.” They explain that they have deduced that because the rifle at the Twin Peaks does not have a flash suppressor.

Although many military weapons have been given to police forces throughout the United States, the M110 SASS has not. It appears to be a weapon used exclusively by military personnel. So if Chief Stroman is to be taken at his word, and if what he meant by “we” included Waco police, county deputies and the Texas Rangers Swat, the question naturally arises of why a military sniper rifle was at the scene.



Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: TeeDub on May 14, 2017, 05:23:32 pm
You can buy a m110 SASS.   (With a suppressor if you are willing to wait for ATF approval and pay the $200 tax stamp.)

The barrel in the picture isn't big enough to integrally suppress a large caliber round.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: erfalf on May 15, 2017, 08:26:47 am
Considering the TANK of a vehicle right next to him, the fact that a guy has "military grade" arms should be the least alarming thing in that picture.


Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 29, 2017, 01:29:17 pm
.






Title: Re: Human Garbage and the Waco Massacre
Post by: patric on November 10, 2017, 06:37:10 pm
The ATF-engineered confrontation that spun into an out-of-control shootout begins to fall apart as the cases finally go to court.

http://www.kcentv.com/news/local/jury-was-leaning-toward-a-not-guilty-verdict-in-twin-peaks-juror-says/490936782