The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Site work has begun at the former site of the Clear Water Car Wash on 15th street next to Full Moon Cafe. Should be a great project, it will be a two story 22,500 sqft mixed use space with three retail tenant spots on the first floor and a second floor office space. It will be a full brick building with some nice modern touches.

Related Topic: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20497.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20497.0)

Do we know what the retail tenants will be yet?  A Mexican restaurant has been the rumor but I've also heard brewpub.

We went to Tucci's last week - fought the traffic and the traffic won!!  It's really good that there are areas like that in town.  Shame the city doesn't have enough foresight to think about traffic flow.  And dare I even mention the word..??   Parking.

It's are real live cluster.

Uber

Old people don't know what Uber is and/or don't trust it.  They still want to drive and park.  Some of the business owners care about walkability but also know that parking is something they need to consider for business reasons.  The first step, however, is doing away with parking requirements.  I never understood why the government cares how many parking spots a business has.  It should be up to the business owner to make that decision.

Bar...Restauraunt..Medical offices up stairs.....

You are full of smile as a Christmas goose.....

Been checking out the dingleberries again, I hear....

Gonna wait a while on that until the kinks are worked out.  Like background checks.  And a little bit more than just a regular drivers license for the cabbies.  Auto inspection/maintenance requirements.   Even Oklahoma requires at least a day's training for concealed carry.  Don't really trust amateur drivers all that much.  They may be busy with their dingleberries....


Oh, as far as Tucci's - well the traffic only partially won.  I got a place right around the corner - maybe 200 feet from the front door.  Sat on the porch and had a wonderful dinner!!

It's Uber easy. Never had a problem.

Exactly! If we are truly interested in private property rights around here, why do we keep imposing ridiculous, arbitrary, unfunded, expensive mandates?

Yes...You.....

Because we are human. Without those rules..er ridiculous, arbitrary, unfunded mandates... people abuse the available parking. They start parking in front of other businesses, neighborhood homes and driveways and jumping curbs to park on easements. You may be too young to remember Fair parking or have never lived near a night club.

The city and these requirements can be your only protection against unscrupulous businesses that won't even provide parking for their employees.

So...again...for the second time.  You admit publicly to having your head up someone's backside...or at least attempting to, checking out stuff that really shouldn't be checked on by a second party.  Really need to get a life.  Perhaps it's all the yeast fumes... I have heard that in concentrated form, the end result is much like mercury exposure.

These thoughts came to mind-
The first step is organizing the Cherry Street merchants and dealing with a problem too long ignored. That area was designed during the late twenties with little regard for usage as a trendy entertainment district. It was neighborhood shopping and services. Now it attracts from a city many times the size of Tulsa in 1928. Why didn't we plan ahead, close the street off on each end, build multi story parking and run a trolley up and down the street with tie-ins to other entertainment districts via shuttles? Because it grew slowly and with no leadership. Instead of those plans developers quickly tore out multifamily and built very high end loft condos.

Uber is not the solution. I know at least one of their drivers. He only makes money late at night. Turns out Uber is great for late night drunk transport but not shopping and dinner. I remember reading a few years back that Tulsa has more cars per person than LA! We obviously have not embraced mass transit but you think they will embrace Uber instead? Doubtful. So, eliminate parking and you kill the area. A significant portion of customers on Cherry Street are well off, established, middle age or old. Is Smoke willing to write them off by not offering parking and valet service?  

Interesting, most of the people I know who use Uber are in their 40s and 50's, course that's the age group I am in so there is that.  But everyone I know that uses it, loves it. I a still all in for better transit of course but as Uber becomes more well known and people begin getting comfortable using it, it can in some small part be a way to bridge the gap and help to transition some areas on their way to becoming more dense and pedestrian friendly. 

Also, I find it interesting to think about all the people I know and hear about who would love to live in a more pedestrian/transit lively city, but who do not come to Tulsa or leave Tulsa because it is not.  We try to make things comfortable for the "suburbanite" type people who then still complain no matter what we try to do unless it was to bulldoze everything and turn it into suburbia  (I don't like parking garages they are nasty, I don't like parking garages they are scary) etc.  And then while we are catering to them we completely turn a blind eye to those who would have been perfectly fine with no parking and better transit.   

I didn't mean to imply that Uber won't work or isn't helpful. It isn't the solution. As much as we dislike the suburbs, they are there and they are much larger in population than the old part of town which, though not big city pedestrian friendly,  is infinitely more so than the burbs. Lots of money outside the inner city that will never love us but always enjoy the difference. And they aren't going to walk or take the bus to visit.

Sat for 20 minutes on Saturday night around 9pm at Mingo and 71st. The traffic never ended. Seriously, it was constant traffic along restaurant row. A fraction of that would have kept Cherry Street busy all night. No buses. No walkers. No cabs. Cars, trucks and motorcycles.

I can't imagine the lunacy of Cherry Street with no parking regulations and little parking.

I'm always amazed by the traffic that people who live in South Tulsa have to deal with every day. I count myself lucky everytime I get stuck in ST traffic that I live where I live.

I would rather be stuck in traffic between beautiful buildings having interesting window displays, trees, lamp posts, and sidewalks full of people than between more cars, ditches, parking lots and far off in the distance bland strip malls, and not another human being in sight.

+1

Heres what we know:

1) desirable development brings in people
2) in Tulsa, peoples default is to drive
3) people who drive need to park

Those are unfortunate facts (at the moment). But, we also know:

4) areas developed to be car centric can have the greatest traffic problems
5) they pay less in taxes per area
6) they cost more in infrastructure and city services
7) they are statistically more crime prone

So it seems we would want to discourage that model as a city...

Don't have any trouble with parking or traffic in that area........

I'm 50 (my wife is 48); we use Uber frequently and we love it.

Cherry Street is not even close to congested. Anyone ever been on Wisconsin Avenue in DC through Georgetown? There's thousands of other examples of way more congested corridors similar to Cherry Street.

Anyone ever tried to find street parking in Georgetown? I have... and at times I would have to drive around for 30 minutes to find a parking spot or pay $30 to park in a public lot for 2 hours.

Again... Cherry Street does not have a parking problem, at all. It has way to much parking.

People in Tulsa seem to think they own the street and sidewalk outside their homes. Guess what? You did not pay for them - you DO NOT OWN THEM. People can park in front of your house and walk to a neighboring business - it's not a big deal. It works in DC, LA, San Francisco, and every other city in the United States. Drive up and down the streets around that area at lunch and there is plenty of street parking available in the residential areas. Why not utilize this public infrastructure for parking instead of forcing developers to knock down structures to add surface parking behind their building?

The only time I ever see Cherry Street congested is Monday-Friday at about 12:50 - the traffic going west back towards downtown can and has backed up from Peoria to Utica. 15 minutes of congestion per day does not mean the area in congested.

Here Here!

I agree that Tulsa city code requires too much parking per building. When you stop to think that the current required ratio for restaurant parking is 1 parking spot for every 100 sqft of building. Which doesn't sound crazy untill you realize that a standard parking spot is 18ft X 8ft which is 144 sqft and that doesnt include the driveway to get to the parking spot which is usally 20ft wide. So for the 22,000sqft of a good looking "1551 Cherry St" we are getting we are getting 40,000sqft of asphalt (that is actual numbers taken off the site plan). If the city ever wants to really stop the destroying of historic buildings and create a true urban core the first thing they have to do is change the way they think about parking requirements.

(https://graphingparking.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/office3.png)

Even somewhere more sparse like downtown Milwaukee and Chicago are workable for parking, but better done by walking.


Hate to quibble...oh, wait - no I don't, I love to quibble!  One comment I do disagree with is "You did not pay for them...".  Yes, we do pay for them!

Along with everyone else, so the idea of ownership hits the nail on the head - it is a shared resource with others who want to park in front of your house and walk.

The only times I get by there are on the weekends and every time in recent years, it has been pretty busy/congested.  Weekdays, outside of noon, don't know.  Wouldn't be surprised if it is quiet though.

So sad. It seems in spite of education, without first hand experience, we keep making the same mistakes. Go ahead and kill Cherry Street if you want. I liked it better before it became trendy anyway.

Some truth to what you said, but not accurate. We do own the street, the curbs, the street signs and the landscaping through years of shared taxes, levies and maintenance. That gives us the right to lobby for its thoughtful, appropriate usage with zoning, parking restrictions and (heavens above..) asking a business to provide some parking for its employees and customers. Even those that don't ascribe to the same lifestyle preferences as yours.

You may argue about the amount required but you'll play hell opening up the neighborhoods for indiscriminate parking for the sake of businesses who merely rent space nearby. It creates rental properties, it diminishes home values, and is equivalent to shoving into the lunch line because you're bigger than the guy ahead of you. Check with a realtor@ about how much longer it takes to sell a house near a busy public school site or by one of the cut through streets. Less value.

Reducing the value of the surrounding neighborhood by funneling those cars into them reduces ad valorem revenue, and eventually kills off the goose you were trying to gold plate. Before it was Cherry Street it was simply an old neighborhood full of eclectic, bohemian residents, bars, not much parking and parallel parking at that (young gen just can't handle that). The result was congestion, crime and rentals. Good place to find drugs.

I notice you didn't mention cities like Minneapolis/St Paul where multi level parking is a given for streets that were redeveloped like Cherry Street. My wife is from there and they followed that practice 30 years ago.

You talking to me?

If so, I don't want to kill Cherry st at all.  I liked the Bohemian before and I like it now - except the parking.   

Parking is a pain...but I found a space.  If I wanted to park instantly, valet was available at $15.  I'm just too cheap, plus would rather walk a couple blocks on a day like it was.

No. Talking to.the guy that wants to eliminate parking requirements for businesses and dump the cars into surrounding  neighbor hoods.

Funny you bring up ad valorem revenue - so the surface parking that's been required to be built behind all the new retail - where did it come from? It came from tearing down existing structures that were creating tax revenue before and are now gone. When they could have been saved and people could have just parking on the surrounding streets. It works in every major city.

If no parking requirements kills urban neighborhoods how is NYC so successful? I guess they missed the memo that you need to have parking for all that retail on 5th ave. How is Georgetown in DC so successful? I guess they missed that memo too for all that retail on M Street and Wisconsin Avenue.

I'll clarify too - when I said you don't own the street I meant you don't personally own that entire section outside your house. It's public infrastructure meaning everyone paid for it, not just you - which gives you no rights to say someone else can't park there or businesses can't have their employees park there if they need to. You're essentially advocating for gated communities - you better not drive, walk, or park near me. Which there is nothing wrong with that, that thinking just doesn't belong in designing an urban corridor.

The surface parking lots that are slowing creeping further away from the retail areas and taking up more and more existing structures is what will kill Cherry Street - not having people parking a few blocks away on the street and walking to 15th.

Also, those business you want to force to provide parking pay for way more of that street than you do through sales taxes on their products.

I have yet to go to Minneapolis so I can't speak to what you are saying, but structured parking would be nice on Cherry Street and Brookside. The empty lot that faces Utica north of 15th would be ideal to turn into a 300-400 space garage with retail and residential. If that was built - then get rid of any parking requirements and infill the surface parking lots that have been created. Better yet, lets connect Utica Square - Cherry Street - Downtown together with a street car and get rid of all the parking requirements along the corridor. People could park in one of the parking garages downtown or surface lots and get on the streetcar and go to Utica Square, Cherry Street or the Brady.

Really?  Does the city pay to install and maintain the sidewalks?  Homeowners were required to maintain sidewalks in front of their houses in the town where I spent my younger years.  We had to replace several sections that had been lifted by tree roots.

In a new development does the city pay to install sidewalks or is the cost of the initial installation included in the price of the house?

I'll agree that the city maintains the streets, somewhat.

Talked to a friend just this last week whose partner is moving here from London.  He got a laugh as he was telling me that his partner was now having to learn how to drive and get a drivers license, and had originally thought he could just get around using the bus.

Heck if I could easily get from Downtown to Brookside to Utica Square to Cherry Street via transit, I would get rid of my car and move to one of those areas.  Car payment, insurance, gas, maintenance, parking... money just thrown out the window and I keep thinking what advertising I could have done with that this month, or product I could have bought, or extra employee/hours my shop could be open.

We have got to work on making that transition.

Went last week to a pre-cocktail, cocktail party at the Summit Club.  We walked there from DECOPOLIS to meet a group of people.  Then afterwards we headed to a fundraiser at the Cox Event Center.  Chris and I were like "lets just walk", the rest of them looked at us like we were crazy.  I was like "Dudes, its just right there, I can see it from this window".  But didn't want to  be a Debby Downer and ruin the festive mood so let it go.  Chris and I walked and got to the front door at exactly the same time those that drove did.  I thought "soon as the downtown streets get a little more busy, even they will see that walking will be the better option."  I mean, they parked twice, within just a few blocks. And if we had been like that we would have had to have found 3 parking spots.

The other day, I kid you not, this lady was in the shop and I mentioned that there were other shops in the Philcade building one block over.  She wanted to know if she could drive there.  I was like "Its one block over, and on the same side of the street, you don't need to drive you can just walk".  She still paused and stood there for a moment like she was trying to make a decision while in my head I was screaming "It's only ONE BLOCK OVER LADDY! OMG COME ON SEEEERIOUSLY!"

Ugh.

Well, I have walked from your shop up to the Philcade building before (couple of times) , so that kinda makes up for one person driving there!

*I am not a developer, I'm a commercial real estate economist*

1. So you are staying all the parking lots that exist now on Cherry Street were just empty lots forever? They went from grass fields to surface parking correct? No. At some point they were houses or commercial properties that were demolished and are now surface parking lots. That means ad valorem taxes have been lost. For example - this development will be building surface parking on 3 different lots that were once houses. Tell me how that makes financial sense to the city or residents when someone could park on the street instead and walk a little further to get to Chipotle, Noodles Co., Panera, etc.

Your Ranch Acres example is not applicable. Not sure where you are going with that. New suburban developments vs. infill developments are not the same thing so this makes no point.

Your conspiracy theory that people parking and walk by your front yard to nearby retail degrades your property values is laughable. In every city in the United States the most valuable real estate is next to urban retail corridors like Cherry Street. Since the DC and NYC examples didn't sink in with you (and no I wasn't comparing us to them - I was just trying to show you that urban retail corridors that don't provide any parking for workers or shoppers next to residential exist, and they don't degrade property values. Georgetown is the most expensive and desirable neighborhood in the Mid-Atlantic). Here's another example in a city and area that has no mass transit. Montana Avenue in Santa Monica - which actually reminds me a lot of Cherry Street - this area of LA is one of the most expansive and most desirable areas. The people who park on residential streets and walk to Montana Avenue definitely don't degrade property values.

I will say I think this is probably an agree to disagree. People are entitled to their opinions and if you live close to Cherry Street and don't want people to park by your house you can voice that opinion - it's your right. I don't agree with you. I would suggest you live somewhere in a gated community where you can wall out any "vagrants" like pedestrians and shoppers.

2. So you pay $2,400 in ad valorem huh? Here's a comparison. 2,000 sq. ft. of retail (using the regional sales per sq. ft. average of $350) nets the City of Tulsa alone @ 3.167% $22,169 per year (the rest of the 8.517% goes to the State and County). So yes - that commercial business pays for approximately 9 x more than you do, not even counting the portion the State of Oklahoma gives back to the city in projects and funding. They also pay ad valorem too on their structure, so they pay even more than that.

3. In order to build an environment that is suitable for transportation that will get people out of their cars is to not provide parking. Calgary is a good example of this. They have the second highest parking cost in North America outside of NYC. Why? Because they've restricted parking in urban areas and built light rail. They also now have one of the most used light rail systems in North America. If no more parking was built on Cherry Street and some of the surface lots were infilled with development where parking did become difficult on even the surrounding areas - it would make a streetcar through the area connecting places like Utica Square or Downtown feasible.

However, we are slowly turning Cherry Street into suburbia but flipping the development were it faces the street with huge surface parking lots behind it cutting off the retail and street from houses. This is not how you build a successful, desirable urban neighborhood.

That's only slightly more than the inflation calculator value of $2446.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

LandArch. Your arrogance is a bit stifling. Yeah, we're just dumb okies who don't know them big city ways. We just love Green Acres.  I don't know what to say to people who don't address issues but merely dote on their own as though repeating them over and over makes them true. Is there religion or politics here I've missed?

Go to the Beryl Ford archives. You didn't specify infill vs new construction. I responded to your posts. Whittier Square (Tulsa's first suburban shopping center), Cherry Street not long after, Utica Square, Promenade, Southland, Southroads, Ranch Acres were not at the expense of housing. You think they were. I lived here when most of them were built. The city was growing fast and they were planned as amenities for the nearby new housing. Note that the apartments, the store fronts, and housing in all those areas have the same architecture rather than having been hodge podged over several decades.

Imagine Utica Square by your rules. Just as bad as what has happened to Cherry Street by today's rules.

There is a middle ground. I have long been on record that Cherry Street was raped by stupid rules made in "one size fits all" mode. Then the developers took out the character by flattening the period walk ups and homey craftsman bungaloes. Mostly to take it from the trendy, bohemian strip it was to the new and improved franchise attractive, inner city version of suburbia themed restaurants. That's something corporates can buy into. I agree it is now being finished off by stupid parking rules. But your answer is just as stupid and damaging.

Adjust the parking rules and develop waivers for entertainment areas like Cherry, Pearl and Brady. Encourage multiparking and trolleys rather than using force and hyperbole. That kind of proposal doesn't slap the existing powers in the face and keeps neighborhoods from stiffening their resolve. You'll never get anywhere touting NYC, Georgetown, London and how stupid we are at cocktail parties.

It was actually $300 when I bought the house and doubled a year later. They're still too high!

I suspect when you factor in vacancies like the huge empty WalMarts, the acres of non taxable properties left vacant downtown for years, the cheats who underpay and the cyclical failures due to oil fluctuations we make more usable money from ad valorem over the long run. Retail taxation has been discussed at length in some of these threads and conclusion is always the same. Sales tax alone is a poor way to fund a city.

I agree that usable transit could take the place of parking. 

As a "commercial real estate economist", what would be your plan to implement heavily restricted parking and add a trolley line without having the transition time kill the businesses currently on Cherry St?  Where would the money come from?  I am a trolley (steel wheels and rails, overhead power) fan but I know the up front money is not trivial.  I am not being a smarta$$ about this.  Someone with a plan might make it work.

Arrogant? Come on now, just because I have an opinion and back it up with facts and real world examples (something you have yet to do) that doesn't agree with you does not mean you need to resort to name calling and trying to deflect from what i've showed you. I encourage you to keep an open mind, you might learn a few things. I use examples from cities we should strive to be (DC isn't a bad example). For the record Georgetown has no rail transit access either, only way there is a bus, car, walk or bike. If we don't strive to learn from exceptional examples and set goals to make Tulsa exceptional we will always be a stale, stagnant, mediocre Midwest city. I happen to want a whole lot more for Tulsa which is why I don't live in NYC, Chicago, Seattle or somewhere else right now and I'm in Tulsa.   

Here's a map of Cherry Street. The blue lots are existing. The Red is this developments new parking lot. Ironic that you can see one of the houses still in this picture that will be surface parking.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/673/z3egXD.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/ipz3egXDp)

No tell me that these have been there since Cherry Street was developed? The parking requirements we have are eroding our tax base when we could lessen them and shift some and or most of it on to existing infrastructure (our streets).

Please, give me some real world examples on how urban retail corridors not providing surface parking lots for their customers which caused them to park in surrounding neighborhoods destroyed any of them. That example doesn't exist. So just because you say it will, doesn't make it true.

 

What I would do is build a large parking structure (400-500 spaces) on the orange highlighted parcel below. This would be part of a mixed-use development with retail and multifamily (hotel would be great here too). Capture the Sales and Ad valorem taxes to pay for the structured parking. Once you do this, get rid of any parking requirement on Cherry Street. Work with the owners of the existing surface lots and pair them with commercial brokers in town. Pre-lease and infill the holes (blue/red highlighted areas). Build small multifamily units as well between the retail along 15th and the houses to the north and south to transition between the two.

When the infill starts to happen, use value capture mechanisms. Essentially freeze the rate of taxes we get now from there and use the extra infill sales taxes and ad valorem taxes to pay for the streetcar through the area.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/912/fXVxnZ.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/pcfXVxnZp)

Transition time is the kicker. Especially as narrow as Cherry Street is now. What you'd probably have to do is build one direction at a time. As you are putting in the rails for the westbound trains get rid of the westbound on street parking temporarily to keep from cutting off traffic flow. Once the westbound tracks are in, do the same for the eastbound tracks.

If we could connect Utica Square to downtown via Cherry Street, there is no reason we couldn't see infill in Utica Square is either. Build a few more structure parking garages on the south end of Utica Square behind Flemmings and P.F. Chang's and fill in a few of the surface spaces towards 21st Street and make the center more urban.

We have an opportunity right now to start doing some transit development in a limited, but very effective manner.  While light rail would be nice, a small, concentrated shuttle system that connects just the downtown/Cherry street zones could be a good starting point.  There is a lot of parking downtown at the edges of the action - 11th and Boston, south of TCC has a lot of available space.  Nothing new, the idea is to keep the scope small to start.

I'm thinking 2 'zones' to start, with strong interaction/connection between them.  This would be a very small, limited space version of the larger city bus system - routes go out from the hub and return, people ride to the center, then get on another bus to go out another branch.  Centered around the parking area, with regular loops such that one could catch a tram/trolley/bus - and if miss that one, the next one comes along in 10 to 15 minutes.  Several vehicles per loop?   Run through the work day, then late enough in the evening to cover events.

Two zones;  Loop through downtown.  Loop through Cherry Street.  Loop out to each successive concentrated area of people gathering for work, recreation, dining, lodging.  Have a very reasonable fee - probably a day pass type thing?  Shuttle to dinner...get on another to go to theater/brewpub/arena/ball park, etc.  Connection between the two zones - take the ride out to Cherry Street, then come back for downtown event.

Start with a small concentrated system to prove the concept, get people used to using it....like the parking and shuttle for the state fair!  Took a while to "warm up" to that, but for many years that has seemed to be wildly successful.

And put up some covered areas in the parking areas for waiting.   Would love to be able to park, then take a short ride to get to the areas of interest.  Start with modest goals, then expand as concept is proven.  Similar modular routes may work with other areas of town.  How about Woodland Hills area?  Tulsa Hills.  !01st and Memorial.  Utica Square.  Jenks?

Or we can continue in this direction....

https://www.facebook.com/370154939804743/photos/a.370383493115221.1073741828.370154939804743/463443913809178/?type=1&theater

 I have always liked the idea of having several dedicated busses just for Downtown, Pearl, Cherry Street, Utica Square, Brookside, loop or two.  Also, I don't think anything has to go down Cherry Street, you could have a stop on Utica and a stop on Peoria with one of the bus loops and easily walk in to where you want to go. People attract people and the more people there are walking up and down Cherry Street the stronger the businesses will be and the more desirable the area will become. 

As for the busses I would have them look differently than the other city busses so that people can easily see that "oh, these are different" and have the route and busses promoted separately so they don't get lost in the rest of the "the city bus routes and times are lousy" mix.

As for parking on side streets. I would have no problem with people parking on my street.  It's just the way it is in most cities, and is especially prominent in areas with more desirability and density.  You can however alleviate that by either building more parking or adding better transit.  I would rather go the latter route.  There needs to be a certain amount of congestion to get people to consider changing their habits and creating new ones, aka, going from cars to using transit.   

Within reason.  Loud drunks at 2am is no picnic.  But if you move a few houses off Brookside or Cherry St. you realize this is a distinct possibility on any given weekend. 

In my mind, the whole Cherry street route would be to get from parking downtown to maybe one or two (three??) locations along the Cherry street corridor - Utica and Peoria would likely pretty well cover it.  I have no problem with a few blocks walking and many I know think likewise.

Absolutely - shuttles/trolleys/rail - whatever form it takes...make it different, distinctive, decorative, and unambiguous as to exactly what it is and where it goes.  Maybe get someone artistic (hint, hint) to provide designs that form an immediate visual impression that says "Downtown Loop".  "Cherry Street Loop".   "Next Big Thing Loop".  Maybe get Fellers 'on board' to provide the decals for the buses?

Clear, concise, concentrated, and cheap enough that people will always choose that over fighting the parking battle closer to the action.  Couple bucks ($2 or 3 maybe??) per person for all day riding?  Maybe a $5 park/ride ticket bundle??  We as a society seem to appreciate, understand, and like 'bundles'....

What is the passenger count at the State Fair shuttle stations now?  This would most likely be at least as attractive as that.  I came dangerously close to saying, "Make it free for a few months to get people started..."  Then thought better of it.  A compelling price/value offering must attract people on its own, or it will never work.
So many ideas....so few resources to pursue...

Go for it Land Arch. Keep the attitude too, that will work well with the folks who own this house who may be providing some parking for your clients, http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Tulsa-OK/22152030_zpid/20859_rid/days_sort/36.268082,-95.542946,35.950218,-96.213112_rect/10_zm/0_mmm/?view=map

That's from adjacent Swan Lake. They pay nearly $4000 in taxes and likely to increase upon sale. Chat with them about their rights and your rights and your "facts". Tell them the city will be better off if they share their neighborhood because of the 'regional average sales per foot" which is of course an average that includes Woodland Hills, Tulsa Hills, Jenks, 101st and Yale and Owasso. Don't mention the poor sales per foot on Cherry Street cause that fact don't matter. Oh, and be sure to tell them everyone in NYC, LA, and Georgetown are all over this concept. Offer them a fine California Chablis. Good luck.

Here's a true story based on facts you cannot slip slide away from. 18th and Boston. 1970. The Lousianne Restaurant, a small Safeway, a DX gas station, a nice little liquour store, a nice little coffee shop (before they were de riguer), a great little Mexican Restaurant, a dry cleaners and a fire station. Some art galleries, a barbeque joint, a paint store, Mapco and a walk up little convenience store. Not infill according to the pics I've seen from Beryl Ford's collection. Most of that was still there til the mid 70's. Parking was plentiful because it served this neighborhood and people walked, or drove from that surrounding neighborhood along with some downtowners passing through. Enlightened downtowners visited for lunch.

But the neighborhood started to change in the early 70's. Hippies, bars, white flight because Central High school was the district. The quaint little area that served Maple Ridge, Morningside and downtown was the victim of the interdispersal loop, oil cycles and yp's then known as boomers. Suddenly all that was left was the firestation, the dry cleaners, the DX and vacant buildings. Those vacant buildings attracted bars and restaurants that no longer could make their living off the hood. They were meat markets that drew from all over town. Cherry which known as 15th was still in stasis. Suddenly parking was a problem and spilled over into once sedate streets. Police sirens, drunks urinating, passed out women on lawns was common. Gunshots, fights, driving across lawns too. All the stuff humans do when they party in an entertainment district. Each morning residents picked up beer bottles, fast food bags and cigarette buts. People put bars on their windows. The commissioners wanted to run an expressway through the area to facilitate suburban traffic into downtown. They had little interest then in what happened there.

An enterprising businessman decided to open a denturist operation in one of the buildings that didn't have a parking lot since it was designed for walk up traffic. Two parking spots for himself and one other. Twelve employees used our street daily along with parents dropping off and picking up for nearby Lee School. The garbage men couldn't make it through because of that and often we didn't get pickup. The denturist yelled at me once when I complained with the exact words you used, "YOU DON'T OWN THIS STREET!"

But wait. It doesn't end there. This down cycle cause by infusion of free parking for businessmen would not, could not last. It had indeed stunted home prices in the area. Bars on windows do that. Traffic and drunks do that too.  As a real estate agent who had seen this cycle before I knew that and gambled on purchasing a home on this street with the knowledge that my city, my fellow (wealthy) neighbors and responsible people would not let an important historic neighborhood die. I got the house cheap. The street had become half rental. In fact much of the area was. Others gambled as well. We became "gentrifiers"! Had it not been for the city backing us up we could have been an expressway. The denturist was forced out (zoning violation), the cops cracked down on petty theft, drunk drivers and public drunk. We got signs erected that limited parking times so the school traffic could work. The home prices started to inch up. The city repaved the streets. We got Historic Preservation status. Realtors started showing the area again. Young people started to move in, replace renters and start families. TPS changed our high school boundary to include Edison. We had block parties. 18th and Boston started to attract better tenants though some cheesy bars still come and go.

The cycle returned us to where we once were. Now, there once again is a fine restaurant, a fine wine bar, a great barbeque joint, a nice little coffee shop, a great little deli, a fire station, a refurbished Phillips 66 gas station turned into a hairdresser, art galleries, and a dry cleaners. We survived the disease you offer. My home has increased in value 600%. Retail sq. footage rates gone up that much? Tax man is happy. The city is happy.

So, knock yourself out. I could use some good rental property over by Cherry.

I lived at 17XX S Cincinnati Place in the early 70's for a couple years.  Lovely little duplex where the trail is now.  Third house from the corner, IIRC, right across from the one with the little white picket fence.  It was an old place, but had a new coat of paint and was a very comfortable little house to live in.  I could live there now and be perfectly happy.  Loved the neighborhood!!  Even today, it is kind of a 'shock' to drive through there and see the differences - amazing what long term memory will do for you.

I was one of those 'hippies' you are talking about...

More often referred to as "damn hippies".  :)

I'm glad you mentioned the State Fair shuttles. They are doing quite well. I drove a route last year. This year they are adding another pick-up location (if forget the address). Since the city made parking in the neighborhood more difficult and actually towed the cars parking on easements, it has eased the burden on them and made the shuttles feasible.

Funny how those shuttles appeared when parking was restricted.

Yeah....that was me....

So are we talking about Swan Lake, “SoBo”, Ranch Acres, Utica Square, or what? I also have no clue what “disease” I’m offering? People using public infrastructure? What you want is massive surface parking lots to accommodate all these commercial spaces employees and customers – basically suburbia – so they never have to park in front of your house or walk by on that sidewalk either.

 I have a hard time believing you are actually reading what I’m writing. I get that this is person to you since you’ve had issues with people disrespecting your personal property (which I don’t think is ok in the slightest). I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. The Swan Lake house is not even remotely close to Cherry Street, so I don’t see a correlation to it and what we are talking about, sorry.

I don’t think parking should be a free for all. The city does need to regulate it. Like you said, if a trash truck can’t get down the street then one of two things need to happen – either make the street a no parking zone for several hours on the days trash gets pick up or make one side of the street no parking. This works and is enforced in all major cities. Many major cities have entire neighborhoods during the spring – fall that have no parking allowed on one side of the street once a week to allow for street cleaners to come through. People who park on easements, in front of driveways, on your yard, etc. should never be ok. But if they are parked in front of your house – not blocking anything and not blasting music or pissing in your yard – there is no reason not to allow that. That is what 99% of the people who use commercial areas do.
 
Drunks – well that’s just what you have to deal with when you live close to a bunch of bars. Conan hit the nail on the head. If you live a stones throw away from a commercial district you have to expect traffic, people, noise, and other things that come along with it.

The problems that our urban neighborhoods went through were not because of people parking on the streets because there wasn’t enough parking. The issues were due to suburbanization – all the highway construction and abandonment of our core neighborhoods. This happened everywhere. Walk through any major city in America and you’ll find bars on windows and doors.

Sales per sq. ft. includes all those half empty shopping centers in north, east, west Tulsa too. That’s why it’s called an average. Yes, it does include Tulsa Hills, Woodland Hills, etc. Their average sales per sq. ft. are closer to $500-600 per sq. ft. Cherry Street does not have a low average sale per sq. ft., if it did you would not see Chipotle, Panera, Mi Concina, Le Madeline, and other non-local chains leasing up space as quickly as it comes available. They don’t go to places like East Tulsa do they?

To top of the irony – you talk about restricting parking around the fairgrounds and how that brought about mass transit. If we were to think about the fairgrounds as you suggest we do Cherry Street we should be bulldozing the houses along 21st and 15th street because, well they have to provide parking for their customers and employees right? There’s no other solution but providing parking right? Oh, but aren’t you the one driving a shuttle that offers a different solution? Irony.

If the city never implemented parking requirements along Cherry Street and allowed people to park on the streets, we wouldn’t have as many surface parking lots destroying those historic craftsman homes. We would also have a great need for mass transit options – streetcar, brt, etc. Right now, because we are mowing over our tax base to provide parking because you don’t want them by your yard, we can’t support mass transit and we are making it more and more difficult to provide you with services like a Police officers who could patrol that area at night and arrest those people pissing in your yard. But since we are destroying our tax base with public parking, we can’t afford to do that.

Look, he's grumpy and he wants you to get off his lawn. Is that so hard?

Yeah, that's right. Its my fault cause I'm just a grumpy old fart and I just don't understand. Carry on.

Always fun to get the insights of the next blind and furious generation. No doubt my fathers gen said that about our grandiose ideas.

Reasonable reply.
Thank you.

I remember the Lousianne.  Our family went to dinner there a few times.  Maybe more but I went back to college and then the Navy.

People should listen to what LandArchPoke is preaching.

So....use the massive amount of parking near TCC - less than a mile from entry to Cherry St.  Put in a system of reliable, frequent shuttles at prices low enough to be much better than the aggravation of driving through the traffic and trying to find a parking place....

And routes to the north into middle of downtown, too.

Rinse,
Repeat...

Bumgarner aint gonna let go of that property.......

Listening is one thing. Following is foolhardy.

Listen to H. TCC has lots of unused parking during peak times on Cherry Street and would be a great staging area for any Ent district using shuttles.

I'm surprised he hasn't developed it yet.  One of the most high profile empty lots in midtown.

On the subject of Cherry Creek parking, the goal should be to tie it into a larger mixed-use project.  Take the Lincoln Elem. property with Jason's Deli, Chimi's, etc.  Develop the surface lots along 15th into 4-5 story apartment or condo buildings with retail space along the street.  Give the tenants at the back the option of relocating to those spaces.  Maintain an alley behind for access to Jason's Deli and Chimi's.   Tear down the section at the back and build a 2-3 level parking garage keeping the facade of the existing building at the base of the garage with access off Quaker.  The garage would serve the residents as well as office tenants above Jason's Deli and the public using Cherry Creek.  

Lease it from him.  The parking is in place, and there is a compelling public need...he must let us draw the water from the well.  Certainly, he can present a bill for such services.  After all, we are not Communists.

There is more of a need for this on Brookside than Cherry street.......

Thank you  :)


Now I'm convinced you aren't actually reading what anyone says.

Please refer to « Reply #42 on: April 30, 2015, 08:49:04 pm » In which I talk about how we could connect Utica Sq, Cherry St, and Downtown. Connecting Cherry Street to downtown would mean running a streetcar (or shuttles to start) along 2 roads (Boston Ave or Main St) which would take them past all that parking.

I thought the only way was to build parking for all of those customers and employees?

Supply and demand influence whether transit is successful. If you build thousands of parking spaces along Cherry Street like you suggest then transit will never be successful and we will continue to demolish housing for surface parking lots. We will also continue to erode our tax base.


Hillcrest is the primary owner of that block along Utica. They own 75% of that frontage. Bumgarner owns some frontage along Utica towards 15th and then owns the rest of the land that fronts Troost.

In regards to Cherry Creek. If the Catholic church could be talked into it, I would construct a parking structure at the corner of 16th & Quincy where their parking lot is now, just make it multi-level underground and above ground and throw some apartments on top of it (which would home amazing views of downtown). Once that structure is built you could infill the surface parking fronting Peoria and 15th that center has with mixed-use development, and maybe build a level or two of underground parking too. While the parking there is under construction customers can use the parking garage on the catholic church site or they can have valet service to there.  

Wasn't he going to build a mid rise medical office building there and he got stopped by the Great Recession? I would assume that is still his plan as demand inches up.

His other developments around Utica Square have been successful and there is demand for new Class A office space in midtown.  That location in between two hospitals should also be very attractive for medical offices.  I would hope something mixed-use and relatively dense/tall like Utica Place (another Bumgarner project) gets built there.

Did you say something?

We haven't been reading each other's posts practically since the beginning of this thread. You lost lots of credibility by asserting business interests exceeded neighborhood interests and in not noting the examples you asked for and I laid out. Preach to your crowd. I'll preach to mine.

English please?

Oh, and I've read all your posts.

It's hard to debate or understand anyone when they just shove their fingers in their ears and yell "I'm not listening, I'm not listening - LALALA"

Brookside is another GREAT candidate for this...and only a short distance further!  There are probably others... just gotta get started somewhere.