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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: cannon_fodder on April 13, 2015, 01:01:24 pm



Title: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 13, 2015, 01:01:24 pm
I started a new thread for this topic, not because the other discussion was bad... but because it began on page 28 of a general police thread. This discussion is likely to go on for a while so I would like to focus the discussion to this incident. Here's my two cents:

The facts of the case:

- The Deputy was on the force only after he donated large sums of money to the Sheriff's election campaign and to the department
- He was 70+ years old
- He was tapped to be part of the "capture" team on a felony gun bust
- The dead man appears to be guilty of illegally selling a firearm, which I believe is punishable by up to 10 years in jail (21 OS 1283) [not death]
- The bust was botched to start with. Preferably, the suspect is met with overwhelming force before he has an opportunity to run
- The capture was successful, the man was tackled and subdued quickly
- The man was on the ground with 4 or 5 deputies on top of him and one arm in a hold
- The Deputy tried to Taser the man, but shot him and quickly apologized
- Even after shooting him, the deputies persisted on their confrontation and apparently did not administer first aid until TFD arrived (the man was kneeling with an open wound when TFD arrived)
- The firearm that was being used has been reported as being a firearm that was not authorized (the Deputy did not qualify on that firearm)
- The man died
- The TCSO response has been poor


The utter BS:
- The Sheriff argued that the deputy(ies) thought he was going for a gun.  They had 4-5 guys on top of him. No one ever mentioned movement towards a gun. He had no gun. And deputies do not yell "Taser Taser" if you go for a gun. A Deputy does not yell "I shot him, sorry" if he feels the shooting was justified by the suspect going for a gun. This is a post hoc fabrication

- The Sheriff claimed the man was on PCP. The man entered a truck, had a coherent conversation, and was subdued on the ground. That is not the behavior of someone on PCP.

- The Sheriff claims that the other deputies did not know the man was shot. That they were institutionally deaf or some such non-sense.
::BANG:: from 2 feet away from everything
D1: "Oh sh!t, I shot him. I'm sorry."
Man: "Damn, he shot me. He shot me! I can't breath!"
D2: "F*ck you're breathing" while kneeling on the back of the man that was shot from 2 feet away

I can't imagine telling a jury that D2 didn't hear the gunshot within a couple feet of his head, that he didn't hear the "I shot him, sorry" or the screams of "he shot me" which he was responding to. That is utter nonsense. If you can't not perceive a gun shot from a couple feet away or the conversation you are participating in, you have no business what-so-ever intervening on behalf of the public. If you can't perceive a gunshot, how can you perceive any other sort of threat?

- Calling the shooter the "victim." The Sheriff's office, before even conducting an investigation, was referring to the Deputy who accidentally shot a man to death as the "victim" in this situation. If nothing else, it is in poor taste and signals that your investigation is predetermined.

- A Taser and a firearm may feel a lot alike (this is a design flaw in many opinions), but the firearm is generally to be kept on the dominant hand side with the taser on the side of the off hand. They weigh significantly different. The sites are different. It is a monumental error to confuse the two. Not just a small mistake. It would be like "accidentally" hitting the gas instead of the brake, the pedals look a lot alike... but if you confuse the two you are still at fault.

- - - - - -

Taking the facts as presented, a charge of second degree manslaughter seems imminent.

THE LAW:

OUJI-CR 4-103

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE - ELEMENTS

No person may be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, the death of a human;

Second, the death was unlawful;

Third, the death was caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant(s).

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=81158

OUJI-CR 4-104

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE -

CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE DEFINED

The term "culpable negligence" refers to the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=81159

I'm not even sure what elements of the statute are in dispute:
1) a human died,
2) the Deputy had no right to execute the person who died and it was not done intentionally in defense of oneself or others, and
3) the Deputy admits that it was done by his own negligence.

The Deputy could argue that it was legal to execute a suspect in custody, but I'm not sure on what justification. He could argue that it wasn't negligent to "accidentally" shoot the man to death, but it seems obvious that when exercising ordinary care Sheriff Deputies do not ordinarily mistake their firearm for a taser (or we would see this relatively frequently). In fact, every law enforcement officer I've spoken with on this issue was flabbergast that such an error was made.

Second Degree Manslaughter is a felony punishable by  
21 OS 722
Any person guilty of manslaughter in the second degree shall be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary not more than four (4) years and not less than two (2) years, or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or both fine and imprisonment.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69321

- - -

I don't think the deputy is a villain. I don't think he did it on purpose. But I think having men who appear to "pay to play" Sheriff participating in the most dangerous elements of law enforcement is ill advised. What's more, when it goes bad because such an actor "makes a mistake" it is the public that is punished. Yes, the guy he shot appears to be a low-life, but the rights of a low-life are just as important as your rights are. If we do not protect the rights of SOME people because we deem them unworthy, then we cease protecting all rights to some degree.

The man should be charged with second degree manslaughter. Offer him a generous plea that sees him a convicted felon, resign from the Sheriff's office, forfeit his weapons, pay the $1k fine and court costs, and then a deferred sentence of how ever many years. No point wasting more money than this is already going to cost us to lock someone up who is neither a threat nor guilty of anything worse than horrible judgment. Or, he can press his luck and go to trial...

But it is hard to see how this isn't against the law somehow. If you or I were in a lawful struggle with someone and "accidentally" shot them to death, we'd be charged. Law enforcement is not above the law.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: TulsaMoon on April 13, 2015, 01:32:21 pm
All of my life I have ignored this type of police / criminal issues. I have always thought the police were right, criminal wrong, go on with life. But now I am a part of this, close to this and I can not ignore what's impossible to ignore. NOT all public servants are this way, MOST are good people doing a tough job with little respect. But now I see that some are terrible people, just beyond reproach. Also it is not the Tulsa Police Department we are speaking of.

When the family and media asked for video, TCSD said there was only ONE video, the Dollar General. This was untrue and proven, and there are more videos to come

When the deputy said he reached and drew the wrong weapon this too is untrue. He came out of his vehicle with a Pepper ball gun in one hand and his 357 in the other. How do you draw your taser then if BOTH of your hands already have weapons in them? Do you grow a third arm?

At the press conference for the TCSD they showed a BLACK taser next to a service revolver to show the difference and how easy it would be to make this mistake. First, the taser worn by the deputy was yellow, not black. The taser was worn up high on his chest and not on the belt. He did not have a sheriff issued service weapon but a 357 of his own and not the one shown in the press conference. At no time did he have his taser in his hand because he was armed exiting the vehicle.

He was not running with his hands in his pants as if he had a gun, as they say he was. He was in gym shorts and flip flops and running like an Olympic sprinter.

He was not on PCP as they claimed. He did not say " hey I'm on PCP " AS THEY CLAIMED!

When he is shot you hear the other officers act in complete indifference to it. They do not act in a manner to help, they say F! your breath. They sit him up and in less than 10 minutes he is dead, not dead at the hospital, not dead in route, dead there on the scene sitting up, handcuffed, gasping for air.

The next set of evidence to come out, very soon is going to make everyone sit up and go what the frack.

But let me ask one question here. This was a sting operation to buy a weapon. I myself asked why it was set up just 300 feet from a school. The answer is as follows.

Originally they wanted to meet him at his apartment but he refused to do that so in order to keep him comfortable we set it up at the dollar general.

In order to keep an illegal gun sale seller comfortable ( a felon ) we endangered the lives of hundreds of students just feet away. Does this make any sense to anyone?

I am mad that my friend was stupid and tried to sell a gun just when we thought he was on the right track.
I am mad that a 74 year old sheriffs officer didn't know the difference between a taser and a 357 ( as he said )
I am mad that TCSD is performing backflips to cover this up and lie at every turn.

I am just sick over the entire episode.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 13, 2015, 01:43:37 pm
- The Sheriff claimed the man was on PCP. The man entered a truck, had a coherent conversation, and was subdued on the ground. That is not the behavior of someone on PCP.

It may be minutae, or another indicator of TCSO's credibility, but EMSA paramedics generally go to great pains to protect patient privacy and not run afoul of HIPAA, so I cant see them just casually relating an unseen "confession" that the man was "on PCP."


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 13, 2015, 01:50:05 pm
All of my life I have ignored this type of police / criminal issues. I have always thought the police were right, criminal wrong, go on with life. But now I am a part of this, close to this and I can not ignore what's impossible to ignore. NOT all public servants are this way, MOST are good people doing a tough job with little respect. But now I see that some are terrible people, just beyond reproach. Also it is not the Tulsa Police Department we are speaking of.

When the family and media asked for video, TCSD said there was only ONE video, the Dollar General. This was untrue and proven, and there are more videos to come

When the deputy said he reached and drew the wrong weapon this too is untrue. He came out of his vehicle with a Pepper ball gun in one hand and his 357 in the other. How do you draw your taser then if BOTH of your hands already have weapons in them? Do you grow a third arm?

At the press conference for the TCSD they showed a BLACK taser next to a service revolver to show the difference and how easy it would be to make this mistake. First, the taser worn by the deputy was yellow, not black. The taser was worn up high on his chest and not on the belt. He did not have a sheriff issued service weapon but a 357 of his own and not the one shown in the press conference. At no time did he have his taser in his hand because he was armed exiting the vehicle.

He was not running with his hands in his pants as if he had a gun, as they say he was. He was in gym shorts and flip flops and running like an Olympic sprinter.

He was not on PCP as they claimed. He did not say " hey I'm on PCP " AS THEY CLAIMED!

When he is shot you hear the other officers act in complete indifference to it. They do not act in a manner to help, they say F! your breath. They sit him up and in less than 10 minutes he is dead, not dead at the hospital, not dead in route, dead there on the scene sitting up, handcuffed, gasping for air.

The next set of evidence to come out, very soon is going to make everyone sit up and go what the frack.

But let me ask one question here. This was a sting operation to buy a weapon. I myself asked why it was set up just 300 feet from a school. The answer is as follows.

Originally they wanted to meet him at his apartment but he refused to do that so in order to keep him comfortable we set it up at the dollar general.

In order to keep an illegal gun sale seller comfortable ( a felon ) we endangered the lives of hundreds of students just feet away. Does this make any sense to anyone?

I am mad that my friend was stupid and tried to sell a gun just when we thought he was on the right track.
I am mad that a 74 year old sheriffs officer didn't know the difference between a taser and a 357 ( as he said )
I am mad that TCSD is performing backflips to cover this up and lie at every turn.

I am just sick over the entire episode.

I also couldnt hear anyone yelling "TASER! TASER!" and was surprised local media went with the handouts instead of actually listening to the tape.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 13, 2015, 01:53:09 pm
They just had a news release that they're charging the reserve officer with second degree manslaughter.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: TulsaMoon on April 13, 2015, 01:54:53 pm
He does say taser, but it is extremely hard to hear. TCSD says he yelled it and the officers removed their hands from him right before he is shot. As you can see, that never happened.

As far as PCP, he was not on PCP. It's a made up story to make him super human fighting with police.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 13, 2015, 02:24:31 pm
And then Sheriff Glanz makes this stupid comment:

Quote
"He made an error," Glanz said. "How many errors are made in an operating room every week?"

Holy crap.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 13, 2015, 02:27:45 pm
But it is hard to see how this isn't against the law somehow. If you or I were in a lawful struggle with someone and "accidentally" shot them to death, we'd be charged. Law enforcement is not above the law.

Any insight as to how tort limited this might be for his family?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 13, 2015, 04:25:55 pm

- He was tapped to be part of the "capture" team on a felony gun bust
- The dead man appears to be guilty of illegally selling a firearm, which I believe is punishable by up to 10 years in jail (21 OS 1283) [not death]


- The TCSO response has been poor
- The Sheriff claims that the other deputies did not know the man was shot. That they were institutionally deaf or some such non-sense.
::BANG:: from 2 feet away from everything
D1: "Oh sh!t, I shot him. I'm sorry."
Man: "Damn, he shot me. He shot me! I can't breath!"
D2: "F*ck you're breathing" while kneeling on the back of the man that was shot from 2 feet away


- A Taser and a firearm may feel a lot alike (this is a design flaw in many opinions), but the firearm is generally to be kept on the dominant hand side with the taser on the side of the off hand. They weigh significantly different. The sites are different. It is a monumental error to confuse the two. Not just a small mistake. It would be like "accidentally" hitting the gas instead of the brake, the pedals look a lot alike... but if you confuse the two you are still at fault.


I don't think the deputy is a villain. I don't think he did it on purpose. But I think having men who appear to "pay to play" Sheriff participating in the most dangerous elements of law enforcement is ill advised. What's more, when it goes bad because such an actor "makes a mistake" it is the public that is punished. Yes, the guy he shot appears to be a low-life, but the rights of a low-life are just as important as your rights are. If we do not protect the rights of SOME people because we deem them unworthy, then we cease protecting all rights to some degree.



On the gun charges, it sounded like this is a repeat felony for Eric - selling a gun - so wouldn't they try to stack up the charges on him using both possession of firearm and trying to sell?   10 years per charge...

This is classic TCSO stuff - when I was in contact with both agencies a LOT - and even with the "quirks and oddities" of TPD - TPD was always the vastly more professional organization.  TCSO always had a larger population percentage wise of bullies and borderline gangsters than TPD.  (Lest one think I am just bashing law enforcement agencies, the FBI in Tulsa office was always very professional and more even handed - even they were ignoring one regarding certain parts of the law.  Federal Marshals were very good. Federally, JAG while not exactly LEO like police agency, was and I presume still is very good - that experience extends from the 70's to the earl 00's.)

True - disingenuous to think a deputy can't hear a gunshot at 2 feet.  I can always hear a .357 going off next to my ear.

Pay to play - "huge stupid" that has been tradition with them for a long, long time.


Excellent post - as always.





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 13, 2015, 10:55:24 pm
I was impressed that the Harris family isnt playing the race card, saying it wasnt an issue.

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/harris-family-releases-statement-deputy-involved-s/nksch/


But...
Its unfortunate Tulsa's history provides a perfect backdrop that viewers all over the world are seeing as evil and backwards:

The footage of Harris’s murder was captured by the type of camera of which President Obama wants 50,000 more. To what end? To better document the pornography of our genocide? To allow Tulsa officials to say with impunity that the next Bob Bates (the 73-year old pay-to-play volunteer cop who shot Harris) also meant to use a taser and not a gun? To write that off, too, as “a mistake,” with no further plans for investigation? (Tulsa law enforcement, it is worth noting, is charged to “protect and serve” a city which unleashed one of the most vicious attacks on black Americans in history; it also exists in a state which is trying to purge US history courses from public schools for teaching “what is bad about” America.)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/13/white-supremacy-takes-the-breath-away-from-black-americans


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 14, 2015, 08:16:22 am
It’s amazing the public ignorance that exists.  A friend on FB had posted that Harris was a lifelong thug and because he ran, he basically got what he deserved and Bates should not be charged.  One of the replies went so far as to say if it had been a white guy running no charges would have been filed.

He was subdued on the ground when he was shot, I don’t even really see the need for the taser at that point.

Oh the stupidity!


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 14, 2015, 08:43:05 am
It’s amazing the public ignorance that exists.  A friend on FB had posted that Harris was a lifelong thug and because he ran, he basically got what he deserved and Bates should not be charged.  One of the replies went so far as to say if it had been a white guy running no charges would have been filed.

He was subdued on the ground when he was shot, I don’t even really see the need for the taser at that point.

Oh the stupidity!

I see alot of comments like that but a little more 'subtle'.

"Don't run from the police".

I wonder if any of the commenters have ever been restrained by police.  I have (way back when I was about 20 for looking like someone involved in a crime).  I didn't think about running but the cops didn't tackle me either.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 14, 2015, 09:48:17 am
Major clusterfark. They gave Bates the lowest possible charge they could politically afford. And the other officers skate? Outrageous.

Perhaps time for new leadership in that organization? Nothing like a good civil suit to precipitate that.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 14, 2015, 10:25:12 am
Major clusterfark. They gave Bates the lowest possible charge they could politically afford. And the other officers skate? Outrageous.

Perhaps time for new leadership in that organization? Nothing like a good civil suit to precipitate that.

Between these two threads, what im seeing is accidental shootings must happen a lot, we just dont know about them because they package it as something else.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20996.0




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: TulsaMoon on April 14, 2015, 01:51:36 pm
I was impressed that the Harris family isnt playing the race card, saying it wasnt an issue.

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/harris-family-releases-statement-deputy-involved-s/nksch/


But...
Its unfortunate Tulsa's history provides a perfect backdrop that viewers all over the world are seeing as evil and backwards:

The footage of Harris’s murder was captured by the type of camera of which President Obama wants 50,000 more. To what end? To better document the pornography of our genocide? To allow Tulsa officials to say with impunity that the next Bob Bates (the 73-year old pay-to-play volunteer cop who shot Harris) also meant to use a taser and not a gun? To write that off, too, as “a mistake,” with no further plans for investigation? (Tulsa law enforcement, it is worth noting, is charged to “protect and serve” a city which unleashed one of the most vicious attacks on black Americans in history; it also exists in a state which is trying to purge US history courses from public schools for teaching “what is bad about” America.)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/13/white-supremacy-takes-the-breath-away-from-black-americans


The family has been contacted by what we all see as race baiters in our society. They were told they were not welcome here and that this was not about race. This is about a man, a felon yes, committing yet again another crime when we had all hoped he was on the correct path, and a deputy that killed him. Color has nothing at all to do with it. The facts around the deputy and the TCSO is what is under suspicion. Let me also say that this family came together to pray for this deputy and his family and friends during this time, they know this is terrible for everyone involved.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 14, 2015, 02:04:48 pm

The family has been contacted by what we all see as race baiters in our society. They were told they were not welcome here and that this was not about race. This is about a man, a felon yes, committing yet again another crime when we had all hoped he was on the correct path, and a deputy that killed him. Color has nothing at all to do with it. The facts around the deputy and the TCSO is what is under suspicion. Let me also say that this family came together to pray for this deputy and his family and friends during this time, they know this is terrible for everyone involved.

I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 14, 2015, 02:29:47 pm
I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.

Point taken, but let’s all consider we’ve all said and done things under the influence of adrenaline we later regret.  Do keep in mind Harris was face down at the time and in the confusion I suspect no one was for certain if he had a weapon on him or not.  What if he says: “Let me up, I can’t breathe” and he starts firing or slashing once he’s let up?  This was a weapons sting after all so I would imagine all deputies involved already had a heightened sense of angst going into this.

At very least as a result of this incident, the TCSD needs to review not only their protocol regarding reserve deputies but they need to treat every gunshot wound as if it is life-threatening and get EMSA on it’s way immediately and not dilly dally around because Harris’ wound seemed to have cauterized. 


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 14, 2015, 07:10:21 pm
I take special exception with the deputy that said "f**k your breath", that's someone that should be out of a job. He's worse than the shooter. The shooter made a terrible mistake and he's going to have to pay for that, but this other deputy showed himself to not be the kind of person that needs to wear a badge.


The #fuckyourbreath deputies were undercover just like Bates, but Bates is the only one TCSO threw inder the bus.  They were all involved in the same homicide... being "undercover" shouldnt be an automatic free pass.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 14, 2015, 07:32:57 pm
Point taken, but let’s all consider we’ve all said and done things under the influence of adrenaline we later regret.  Do keep in mind Harris was face down at the time and in the confusion I suspect no one was for certain if he had a weapon on him or not.  What if he says: “Let me up, I can’t breathe” and he starts firing or slashing once he’s let up?  This was a weapons sting after all so I would imagine all deputies involved already had a heightened sense of angst going into this.

At very least as a result of this incident, the TCSD needs to review not only their protocol regarding reserve deputies but they need to treat every gunshot wound as if it is life-threatening and get EMSA on it’s way immediately and not dilly dally around because Harris’ wound seemed to have cauterized.  

We all have said things we regret, but I doubt you have disrespected someone's very right to live and then backed that up with callous actions that probably contributed to or least hastened that person's death. I would be very interested to see if his life could have been saved with more prompt life saving measures.  The problem is that too many cops don't see the public as people anymore.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: davideinstein on April 14, 2015, 07:44:25 pm
I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: davideinstein on April 14, 2015, 07:46:07 pm

The #fuckyourbreath deputies were undercover just like Bates, but Bates is the only one TCSO threw inder the bus.  They were all involved in the same homicide... being "undercover" shouldnt be an automatic free pass.




I'd look up the definition of homicide.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 14, 2015, 09:31:41 pm
We all have said things we regret, but I doubt you have disrespected someone's very right to live and then backed that up with callous actions that probably contributed to or least hastened that person's death. I would be very interested to see if his life could have been saved with more prompt life saving measures.  The problem is that too many cops don't see the public as people anymore.

You are right, Swake, I have not and hope to never be put in that position.  Regardless of Harris’ past and his current transgressions, he had civil rights which appear to have been violated in this instance.  I don’t presume my civil rights are any more or less sacrosanct than anyone else’s. 

I have no intentions of ever putting myself in such a situation to figure out how I’d react in the same high adrenaline episode either.  I’m glad there are people willing to protect the public with scrutiny of LEO’s increasing daily.   

Again, without having ever been in that situation myself, I’m not going to stand in judgement of how much regret those involved do or do not feel now. 

I applaud the Harris family’s insistence that this was not racially-motivated, I’ve seen nothing which suggests it was.  I also don’t believe there is a  national conspiracy to harm un-armed citizens either.  I do believe that the people protesting in downtown today are mistaking “justice” with “vengeance”. Justice appears to be on track given the facts of this case, so why the protests?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 14, 2015, 09:53:42 pm
He does say taser, but it is extremely hard to hear. TCSD says he yelled it and the officers removed their hands from him right before he is shot. As you can see, that never happened.

As far as PCP, he was not on PCP. It's a made up story to make him super human fighting with police.

Medical records show Harris was in cardiac arrest when paramedics first got to him, and at the time TCSO says he "confessed to being on PCP."


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 15, 2015, 05:59:57 am
I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.

I don't see most media outlets focusing on the race issue, even though recent history seems to indicate incidents such as this are about a billion times more likely to happen to black men. Other than a statistical link, I don't think anyone has played the race card.

And yes, the guy was a criminal. Every story mentions him being a felon who was selling a gun to undercover deputies. I knew the criminal background of the victim before I knew the background of the man who shot him. So, we are focusing on that.

But why? Other than making you feel better about our government killing another person, what does that prove? What relevance does it have?

It would be important if they had shot a man and argued it was perceived self defense. "I thought he was going for a gun - sorry." The fact that the man was known to have firearms would matter for sure in that discussion. But that isn't what we are talking about.

"Oh sh!t, in shot him. Sorry."

When you mistake a 357 revolver for a taser, you are a deadly threat to anyone who may be tased. Drunk people. Mentally handicapped people. People having an episode or on drugs. Protestors. Even college students who as rude questions to presidential candidates get Tased. And yes, people who run from the police for crimes large and small get Taxed. If he "accidentally" shoots any of them to death, it's the same crime.

If I murder a hooker or murder a priest, its the same crime. Who you perpatrate a crime against rarely matters.

Here is a fact that modern Americans too often don't get:
The rights of the "lowest" members of our society are the first to erode. Once you can establish that people society doesn't like have lesser rights, it is easy to erode all other rights. And even of that doesn't happen, if we can take away rights from some, all we have to do to take away your rights is to paint you as an undesirable.

"He was on PCP, committed a crime, and ran from police. We had no choice."

A similar line is very often given when a citizen is killed by the government, in this case it is a half lie - in many cases evidence shows it is a total lie. In all cases, the most extreme exercise of governmental power should be carefully examined by someone outside the group who did the killing.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: TulsaMoon on April 15, 2015, 11:14:43 am
I just don't have the same view as the forum on this one. It was an accident and from all of the research I've gathered the media is manipulating it to a race issue based on other events across the country.

Why is there no focus on the fact this guy was putting illegal firearms on the atreets of Tulsa? That his reputation of domestic abuse and armed robbery leave a lot to be desired?

Race relations are important to me coming from a very diverse family and I'm well-aware that racism still exist. But we're doing ourselves a great disservice by letting the media make this into a race issue. It actually kind of infuriates me.

The family has done everything they can to make sure this does not become a race issue, to the point of refusing the known media race baiters access to them and asking them to stay away from Tulsa.

It's obvious to me that you can't separate the fact that he was a criminal to the fact that he still had rights. That a reserve deputy at the age of 74 that had no business injecting himself into a situation that took his life. So far not one media story has been without the fact that he was a criminal, that he was there to sell a firearm, how much more focus do you need?

No one, including his family and friends have denied what he did. He still had the right to live.

One thing is for certain, no one can control the spin that some jack wagons are going to put on this. But as for the family, it is not about race.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 15, 2015, 11:21:30 am
A similar line is very often given when a citizen is killed by the government, in this case it is a half lie - in many cases evidence shows it is a total lie. In all cases, the most extreme exercise of governmental power should be carefully examined by someone outside the group who did the killing.

Too many conflicts of interest would seem to eliminate the local DA in most cases, so who do you turn to for oversight, the feds?
The FBI logically seems the next in line, but as we saw in the other thread, they might be less than objective  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20996.0  so who does the public trust

and who is "Doing The Lord's work"  (at 2:02)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKZDfcCn_xc

UPDATED: 
  "The undersheriff called the regional director of the FBI and they're doing an investigation, here in Tulsa," Glanz said.
http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kfaq/news/BREAKING-Tulsa-Sheriff-Calls-for-FBI-to-Investigate-Shooting-Death-of-Suspect-299768361.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 15, 2015, 12:52:00 pm
Medical records show Harris was in cardiac arrest when paramedics first got to him, and at the time TCSO says he "confessed to being on PCP."


Bullet through or near the heart will do that....give ya cardiac arrest...



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 15, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

Bullet through or near the heart will do that....give ya cardiac arrest...



Pretty sure he died of lead poisoning.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 15, 2015, 06:09:34 pm
You are right, Swake, I have not and hope to never be put in that position.  Regardless of Harris’ past and his current transgressions, he had civil rights which appear to have been violated in this instance.  I don’t presume my civil rights are any more or less sacrosanct than anyone else’s. 

I have no intentions of ever putting myself in such a situation to figure out how I’d react in the same high adrenaline episode either.  I’m glad there are people willing to protect the public with scrutiny of LEO’s increasing daily.   

Again, without having ever been in that situation myself, I’m not going to stand in judgement of how much regret those involved do or do not feel now. 

Part of my thinking is that the police are trained to deal with those situations and are supposed to handle them well. If an officer can't do so, he's in the wrong job. While I don't think the cop that said "f**k your breath" committed any crime or anything, he shouldn't be a cop anymore.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on April 15, 2015, 07:18:27 pm
Some of the discussion has focused on the fact that Bates was having an adrenaline attack, though it wasn't put exactly that way. Some of the discussion focused on the training needed to ensure that law officers (weren't they called "peace officers" once upon a time?) were mentally equipped to use appropriate force under the circumstances. I was going to reply to one of Conan's posts to the effect that we should all hope that any officer contemplating the use of deadly force was so rigorously trained that the decision was made without regard to the officers adrenaline count, but I thought about it and realized that we probably have a few thousand Tulsans exercising their concealed carry rights who have had nowhere near the amount of training Bates has had, so screw it.

Then I read the latest Tulsa World story about Bates training records being faked according to multiple unnamed sources. We already knew that some of his training records were somehow mislaid.

Those familiar with Section 1983 civil rights actions will recognize that the most common allegation in successful lawsuits against cities or counties arising from an act of a law officer is inadequate training. This situation is largely Bates' fault for failing to respect his own limits, but those who put him in the position to do this will also bear responsibility, especially if fraud by an elected official is shown.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 15, 2015, 08:44:01 pm
This is the article cynical is referring to.  Might be time for Glanz and Albin to consider retirement.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/sources-supervisors-told-to-falsify-reserve-deputy-s-training-records/article_a6330f10-a9fb-51e3-ab5e-4d97b03c6c04.html

Quote
Sources: Supervisors told to falsify reserve deputy's training records

Related: Sheriff’s Office confirms names of deputies in video, says they didn’t hear gunshot

Related: Protest rally draws crowd, ends at Tulsa County sheriff’s doorstep

Related: Tulsa, Sheriff’s Office now facing national spotlight in wake of officer-involved killings

Supervisors at the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office were ordered to falsify a reserve deputy’s training records, giving him credit for field training he never took and firearms certifications he should not have received, sources told the Tulsa World.

At least three of reserve deputy Robert Bates’ supervisors were transferred after refusing to sign off on his state-required training, multiple sources speaking on condition of anonymity told the World.

Bates, 73, is accused of second-degree manslaughter in the shooting death of Eric Harris during an undercover operation on April 2.

The sources’ claims are corroborated by records, including a statement by Bates after the shooting, that he was certified as an advanced reserve deputy in 2007.

An attorney for Harris’ family also raised questions about the authenticity of Bates’ training records.
Additionally, Sheriff Stanley Glanz told a Tulsa radio station this week that Bates had been certified to use three weapons, including a revolver he fired at Harris. However, Glanz said the Sheriff’s Office has not been able to find the paperwork on those certifications.
The sheriff’s deputy that certified Bates has moved on to work for the Secret Service, Glanz said during the radio interview.

“We can’t find the records that she supposedly turned in,” Glanz said. “So we are going to talk to her to find out if for sure he’s been qualified with those (weapons).”

Undersheriff Tim Albin was unavailable for comment Wednesday but in an earlier interview, Albin said he was unaware of any concerns expressed by supervisors about Bates’ training.

The Sheriff’s Office has released a summary listing training courses Bates had been given credit for but have not released documents showing which supervisors signed off on that training.

He rejected claims that Bates’ training records were falsified and that supervisors who refused to do so were transferred to less desirable assignments.

“The training record speaks for itself. I have absolutely no knowledge of what you are talking about,” Albin said. “There aren’t any secrets in law enforcement. Zero. Those types of issues would have come up.”

During a press conference Friday, Capt. Bill McKelvey and Tulsa Police Sgt. Jim Clark, a consultant hired by the county, also said they were unaware of concerns about Bates’ training.
The World has requested records showing which supervisors signed off on Bates’ training. An attorney for the Sheriff’s Office declined to provide them, saying the matter is under investigation.
Bates, a wealthy Tulsa insurance executive, turned himself in Tuesday after being charged on Monday in Harris’ death. He is free on $25,000 bond.

Harris was shot and killed during an undercover operation the Sheriff’s Violent Crimes Task Force was conducting. Harris, according to the sheriff’s office, had previously sold methamphetamine to undercover deputies and was in the act of selling them a stolen gun.

As deputies moved in to make the arrest, Harris bolted from the truck and ran, pursued by deputies until they brought him to the ground. Bates shot Harris while he was on the ground and immediately said, “Oh, I shot him! I’m sorry.”

The Sheriff’s Office has said Bates is typically in a support role assisting the task force. He told investigators he meant to stun Harris with a Taser but accidentally shot him with a handgun instead.

Bates was classified by the Sheriff’s Office as an “advanced reserve.” That means Bates would have had to complete 480 hours of the “Field Training Officer,” or FTO, program to maintain that classification.

Dan Smolen, who represents Harris’ family, said Wednesday that he believes Bates’ field training records were falsified and that they no longer exist.

The Sheriff’s Office previously said Bates had joined the reserve deputy force in 2008. However, Bates, in a statement he gave the Sheriff’s Office following Harris’ shooting, said he became an advanced reserve deputy in 2007.

The cause of that discrepancy is unclear.

In Bates’ seven-page statement to Tulsa County sheriff’s investigators, obtained by the World on Wednesday, the reserve deputy states he previously attended a five-day homicide investigation school in Dallas and received “active shooter response training” by the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office in Arizona.

Bates said in the statement that he had been involved in “at least 100 other” assignments, such as the undercover operation planned on April 2.

In that statement, Bates said he contacted a task force member on April 1 to ask if there was a “pending operation” he could assist with.

The task force member informed Bates of the plan to have an undercover officer buy a gun from Harris the following day.

Officials said Harris could have faced up to life in prison for selling the firearm because he had prior felony convictions.

During a briefing hours before the shooting, Bates said he was informed that Harris was “a bad son of a b----” who had gang affiliations.

Deputies in attendance were told Harris was known to carry a gun and to consider him armed and dangerous.

During a press conference last week, a consultant hired by the Sheriff’s Office pointed to several scenes from the recorded video of Harris’ shooting.

The consultant said the still images from the video showed why pursuing deputies would be concerned that Harris had a gun in his pants as he fled.

Bates mentioned this in his statement as well, noting he believed that Harris was running “in an unusual way,” touching his right hand to his waistband.

It was later determined that Harris did not have a gun on his body when he was tackled and shot. The video shows his arms flailing as he runs.

Undersheriff Tim Albin has said the video cuts off after Harris was shot because the camera battery died. The video was filmed on a “sunglasses cam” purchased by Bates for the task force.

Bates was Glanz’s 2012 re-election campaign manager and also was named reserve deputy of the year in 2011.

He has purchased five automobiles for the task force. Bates and other task force members drive the vehicles, which the Sheriff’s Office equipped with lights and other police equipment.

In his statement, Bates said he was unsure if the pursuing deputy would catch the fleeing Harris. So Bates said he grabbed his pepper-ball launcher, a “less lethal” device meant to incapacitate much in the same way as pepper spray.
Bates said as he approached the scuffle, he thought he noticed Harris again reaching for his waistband. At this point, while two additional deputies were subduing Harris, Bates said he saw a “very brief opening” in which he could hit Harris with a Taser.
Bates noted “thinking I have to deploy it rapidly, as I still thought there was a strong possibility Harris had a gun on him.”

At that point, as is evident in the video, Bates stated “Taser! Taser!” then fired one shot, striking Harris below the right arm.

Bates stated in his account that the time from which Harris was tackled by one deputy to the time Bates fired the fatal shot was “only about 5 to 10 seconds.”Related: Reserve deputy charged with manslaughter turns himself in at Tulsa Jail{

Related: Reserve deputy bought cars, equipment for undercover unit{

WATCH: Raw Video: Eric Courtney Harris is shot after a pursuit by Tulsa County deputies

WATCH: Raw video: After an undercover gun buy, a sheriff’s deputy kills the suspect.

Related: Sheriff Stanley Glanz calls reserve deputy a longtime friend who made an error


Dylan Goforth 918-581-8451

ziva.branstetter@tulsaworld.com


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 15, 2015, 09:18:42 pm
This is the article cynical is referring to.  Might be time for Glanz and Albin to consider retirement.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/sources-supervisors-told-to-falsify-reserve-deputy-s-training-records/article_a6330f10-a9fb-51e3-ab5e-4d97b03c6c04.html


Wow.  Unbeebable.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 16, 2015, 07:42:46 am
Might be time to consider leaving the country to avoid prison time. If the allegations are true, it is a heinous abuse of authority, probably a felony (forging police records), and possibly felony murder (commission of a felony leading to the death of a person). You pay me enough money, I forge documents making you a deputy and clear anyone out of the way who objects.

Wow. National embarassent. Millions pissed away on lawsuits. Trust in law enforcement shattered.

Frikken disaster, and that's ignoring the fact that our government killed someone by mistake.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 16, 2015, 10:10:20 am
Quote
In Bates’ seven-page statement to Tulsa County sheriff’s investigators, obtained by the World on Wednesday, the reserve deputy states he previously attended a five-day homicide investigation school in Dallas and received “active shooter response training” by the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office in Arizona.

Wonder how much money he contributed to Sheriff Joe's pockets for certifications?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 16, 2015, 10:53:39 am
Wonder how much money he contributed to Sheriff Joe's pockets for certifications?

Hey, they go thru a lot of diesel.
(http://njtoaz.smugmug.com/Police/Maricopa-County-Sheriff/i-DDTvpXz/0/L/MCSO%20The%20Tank%20M1%20Abrams%20(ps)-L.jpg)



And while reading about Tulsa on Al Jazeera and Business Insider Australia is interresting, nothing says "We made it to the Big Time" like The Daily Show:  

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/o415ih/seriously--guys--what-are-we-doing-here-  


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 16, 2015, 12:29:26 pm
Yeah, says something when any of our training comes from that outfit.

From the start I felt it wasn't about age or race. It has been about poor training, leadership and politics. The guy made a mistake but the system he worked in enabled that mistake.

Kudos to the World for finally stepping up against a powerful and politically connected force. We shouldn't wait for the civil suit to get rid of these guys and we should immediately start to look at the history of their arrests.

Amazing to me how many people are willing to swallow the mis-information put out about this case by the deputies because it fits their political viewpoints. Specifically any moron who says, "he shouldn't have run" and "he never heard the gun shot".


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 16, 2015, 02:22:40 pm
Might be time to consider leaving the country to avoid prison time. If the allegations are true, it is a heinous abuse of authority, probably a felony (forging police records), and possibly felony murder (commission of a felony leading to the death of a person). You pay me enough money, I forge documents making you a deputy and clear anyone out of the way who objects.

Wow. National embarassent. Millions pissed away on lawsuits. Trust in law enforcement shattered.

Frikken disaster, and that's ignoring the fact that our government killed someone by mistake.


Just another day in Oklahoma....


<Insert picture here> of the state outline and the phrase, "0 days without national embarrassment; Keep up the good work!"



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 17, 2015, 09:08:54 am
This just keeps getting more fun! How can you start off by saying a guy has hundreds of hours of training and is 100% qualified, and a week later say you have no records to support your statement and maybe you waived the required training and qualifications? They were going to find those records! Until they were accused of falsifying records, then they don't need to find them because they were waived. This does not look good...


THEN
We looked into it and everything is fine...
- Bates received hundreds of hours of training and was totally qualified
- he trained with the Maricopa County Sheriff's deputy
- he trained with the National Tactical Officer's association
- he has specialized training in homicide, meth lab, and other
- everything in the program is fine
- there were no policy violations
... so there's nothing to see here.


LATER
Maybe everything isn't fine, but no big deal...
- We can't actually find his training records, but he totally was trained and qualified its just that we don't actually keep a record of Deputies training, they keep it themselves and we take their word for it
- We may want to review this program a little
- There may have been a couple policy violations, like Bates killed the guy with a gun he shouldn't have been carrying
...but its no big deal.


NOW
We totally didn't do anything wrong and never falsified anything...
- Bates did not train with the Maricopa County Sheriff's office
- Bates did not train with the National Tactical Officer's Association
- Bates may not have been properly trained, but that's OK, because we can waive the training requirement if we want to
... so we're good now, right?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 17, 2015, 09:18:53 am
I think there is a PhD dissertation here studying the pathology that is the politics and sociology of Oklahoma.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 17, 2015, 11:18:19 am

From the start I felt it wasn't about age or race. It has been about poor training, leadership and politics. The guy made a mistake but the system he worked in enabled that mistake.

Kudos to the World for finally stepping up against a powerful and politically connected force. We shouldn't wait for the civil suit to get rid of these guys and we should immediately start to look at the history of their arrests.

Amazing to me how many people are willing to swallow the mis-information put out about this case by the deputies because it fits their political viewpoints. Specifically any moron who says, "he shouldn't have run" and "he never heard the gun shot".


An interesting sidebar about the former deputy TCSO says blew the whistle on them:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/16/tulsa-sheriff-hit-with-pro-wrestler-suit.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 17, 2015, 11:54:59 am
This is like stories from True Detective. Ain't no tellin' what the truth really is cause everyone's lying.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 17, 2015, 12:04:03 pm
Tulsa County Volunteer Deputy Disputes Claim He Lacked Training

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-county-volunteer-deputy-disputes-claim-he-lacked-training (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-county-volunteer-deputy-disputes-claim-he-lacked-training)

(http://publicradiotulsa.org/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201504/Bates.jpg)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — A 73-year-old Oklahoma volunteer deputy charged in the fatal shooting of a suspect in Tulsa has countered criticism of his qualifications.

Speaking publicly for the first time since the April 2 shooting, Robert Bates told NBC's "Today" show that characterizations of himself as a wealthy donor paying to join the force are "unbelievably unfair."

The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office volunteer also disputed anonymously sourced comments in the Tulsa World newspaper that sheriff's office supervisors were ordered to falsify his training records. He says he is property certified.

Video released by the sheriff's office shows Eric Harris running and deputies restraining him after an undercover gun deal. Bates says he shot the 44-year-old suspect after confusing his stun gun and handgun.

The Tulsa district attorney has charged Bates with second-degree manslaughter.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 17, 2015, 01:36:20 pm
Tulsa County Volunteer Deputy Disputes Claim He Lacked Training

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-county-volunteer-deputy-disputes-claim-he-lacked-training (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-county-volunteer-deputy-disputes-claim-he-lacked-training)

(http://publicradiotulsa.org/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201504/Bates.jpg)


Well, duh!  Of course he disputes it!


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 17, 2015, 05:27:18 pm
Caught part of the interview from the Today Show on CNN this evening, snd now he is saying that he was just in the area and happend to see this going on from a Sinclair station down the street and decided to help? Did I hear this correctly.

EDIT:Never mind, heard the full interview and misunderstood from the brief sound byte played.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 17, 2015, 06:45:29 pm
Interesting story and posts!

Swake, I couldn't agree with you more about the officer who made the nasty comment to Mr. Harris when he said he couldn't breathe. He needs to be removed from the force. Protect and serve? Yeah, right. With his attitude, I'd hate to need his help in any situation.

Canon, I like your comment that included the erosion of rights by starting with the perceived, "Little people."  It's very true.

I'm still absorbing many of the comments, but wanted to say I don't agree that this is making OK look backward. I watched the CNN interview with the guy and gal from the TW and they represented themselves very well, were careful to not make comments on questions they weren't sure the answer to, etc. They were quite impressive.

I also watched the interview with Mr. Harris' brother and he was well spoken, forgiving, but made it clear he still had questions and was hoping for justice. An atheist wouldn't be impressed with his interview, but that would be their problem and that's another subject. He was also impressive! I agree with him that it'd be interesting to know exactly when Mr. Bates realized that the taser instead of gun mistakes have happened.

Mr. Bates interview was interesting and I'm still trying to figure out if he's sorry he took this man's life or if he's sorry for the situation he's now in. He seemed sincere and he did more then most have who are in his position. His mistake of saying, "This is the second worst thing that's happened to me", followed by, "The first...." has been brought up by the news media. It does show that there is a touch of narcissism involved in this man. At least he did apologize to the family, which again, is more then most do. "Good ole boy network" did pop into my mind with his whole situation and I'll bet I'm not the only one who had that thought.

As far as the news media making this about race, I haven't noticed that at all. It just seems confusing that he'd mistake a taser, which was in his upper left pocket, for a gun, which was on his right hip, even though it's supposedly happened at least ten times. It's my understanding that he didn't know that Mr. Harris was a repeat felon at the time of the shooting and it also looked like the other officers had things under control so his actions seemed unnecessary. Just some thoughts.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 17, 2015, 06:58:28 pm
Yeah, says something when any of our training comes from that outfit.

From the start I felt it wasn't about age or race. It has been about poor training, leadership and politics. The guy made a mistake but the system he worked in enabled that mistake.

Kudos to the World for finally stepping up against a powerful and politically connected force. We shouldn't wait for the civil suit to get rid of these guys and we should immediately start to look at the history of their arrests.

Amazing to me how many people are willing to swallow the mis-information put out about this case by the deputies because it fits their political viewpoints. Specifically any moron who says, "he shouldn't have run" and "he never heard the gun shot".

That's pretty normal when you read the comments on news stories. I used to think that people have become callous and dumbed down, but now I'm thinking that some people have always been this way and are first able to express themselves in mass media so we can all see how hateful and nasty they are.

Some people read only the title and not the story and just comment anyway. I get so sick of the political rants when the news story involves nothing about it. I just chalk it up to hateful people finding an outlet.

Last night I read a story about the possibility of getting rid of social security numbers and going with a national I.D. number and one poster commented, "That's right. We need to get rid of social security because it's a drain on our system." Odd thing to bring up when "Numbers" was the topic. It was pretty evident some people posted without reading the story first and that isn't unusual.

For some people, it may be easier to believe law enforcement then to accept the fact that some departments are more corrupt then the people they apprehend. I'm definitely not saying this is the case with this dept., just saying it's the opposite of what we were taught as children. You know, about respecting the police and they're all good guys and they're here to help us and protect us, etc. The comments you're referring to are the same ones I've read on every story where someone was murdered by an officer. They probably just copy and paste it from one story to the next.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 17, 2015, 08:07:17 pm
Something that is clear now that I think everyone can agree on. Glanz has to go. He's a relic of bygone era.

Maybe it's time for the whole Sheriff's department to go as a police organization. Have the various cities in Tulsa county be the only police and the Sheriff can herd prisoners around.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 18, 2015, 07:31:08 am
Something that is clear now that I think everyone can agree on. Glanz has to go. He's a relic of bygone era.

Maybe it's time for the whole Sheriff's department to go as a police organization. Have the various cities in Tulsa county be the only police and the Sheriff can herd prisoners around.

Agreed. However, there is the jurisdiction problems between the cities. The Sheriff covers the whole county and doesn't have to pass off to other cities. Seems like with todays technology that problem isn't as serious as it once was during the "Macon County Line" era. What a change that would effect. Instead of considering merging city and county functions into one all powerful county animal, we could drop the county altogether except for delivering summons' and administering county land. No city/county jail.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: TulsaMoon on April 18, 2015, 08:05:24 am
I said it before and I will say it again, so much more to come out. Each time TCSO says something significant the media or the attorneys follow up with the real truth and prove the department wrong.

Much of the statements made are confusing to say the least, but one in particular should stand out above all. The statement of drawing the incorrect weapon. Unless you are able to grow a third arm whenever you want to, it would have been impossible to draw the incorrect weapon since he was armed with both hands exiting the vehicle. He had a Pepperball gun (a two handed weapon) in one hand and a .357 in the other. How then do you draw a taser?

Russ with KRMG was even confused when Sheriff Glantz said at a press interview that the deputy did not draw his weapon. When pressed about this statement by multiple reporters at the time because even they were confused, he doubled down and said he did not draw a weapon. If you know Russ, ring him up and ask. I got that story straight from him during one of the family interviews.

Glantz is correct, the deputy never drew a weapon because he was fully armed exiting the vehicle.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 18, 2015, 05:04:06 pm
I think there is a PhD dissertation here studying the pathology that is the politics and sociology of Oklahoma.



Shannon Clark is only doing the one thing he seems to do best, which is believing his own lies.  Then there's no-blink Smoot...







Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 18, 2015, 05:24:16 pm
It would be important if they had shot a man and argued it was perceived self defense. "I thought he was going for a gun - sorry." The fact that the man was known to have firearms would matter for sure in that discussion. But that isn't what we are talking about.

When you mistake a 357 revolver for a taser, you are a deadly threat to anyone who may be tased. Drunk people. Mentally handicapped people. People having an episode or on drugs. Protestors. Even college students who as rude questions to presidential candidates get Tased. And yes, people who run from the police for crimes large and small get Taxed. If he "accidentally" shoots any of them to death, it's the same crime.

If I murder a hooker or murder a priest, its the same crime. Who you perpatrate a crime against rarely matters.

Here is a fact that modern Americans too often don't get:
The rights of the "lowest" members of our society are the first to erode. Once you can establish that people society doesn't like have lesser rights, it is easy to erode all other rights. And even of that doesn't happen, if we can take away rights from some, all we have to do to take away your rights is to paint you as an undesirable.

"He was on PCP, committed a crime, and ran from police. We had no choice."

A similar line is very often given when a citizen is killed by the government, in this case it is a half lie - in many cases evidence shows it is a total lie. In all cases, the most extreme exercise of governmental power should be carefully examined by someone outside the group who did the killing.





TCSOs insistance that accidental shootings happen all the time is not so disconcerting because its being used to excuse negligent homicide, but because its true.

TPD, on the other hand, takes the position that they dont have accidental shootings, so when they do, they lie.

"He made a threatening move"  or "I thought he was going to reach for my gun" or "He was gnashing his teeth" have been successfully used to snuff out countless lives in Tulsa, and neither the public or the prosecutors bat an eye.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2015, 05:34:41 pm




TCSOs insistance that accidental shootings happen all the time is not so disconcerting because its being used to excuse negligent homicide, but because its true.

TPD, on the other hand, takes the position that they dont have accidental shootings, so when they do, they lie.

"He made a threatening move"  or "I thought he was going to reach for my gun" or "He was gnashing his teeth" have been successfully used to snuff out countless lives in Tulsa, and neither the public or the prosecutors bat an eye.



I can remember one where they said the guy farted at him and became so startled he had to shoot...





Yes...I'm kidding...but not by much!!



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 19, 2015, 06:50:28 pm
One of the things Eric Harris' brother said during the interview was the family would be interested in knowing exactly when Mr. Bates did the research on how often there's an incidence of drawing a gun instead of a taser. They wanted to know if it was before the shooting or after the shooting.

Today they reran the interview of Mr. Bates and I hope that Mr. Harris' family will listen to it a couple of times and they'll have their answer. I doubt that in their shock and grief their thoughts are too clear, but the answer to that question was already answered by Mr. Bates and that just opens up more questions.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 19, 2015, 07:52:03 pm
Well, I will say this much..if the TCSO didn't want a DOJ inquiry into their department, they're not going about it the right way.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 20, 2015, 07:59:16 am
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at first we effort to deceive"

Should be the caption on their website.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 20, 2015, 08:14:04 am
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at first we effort to deceive"

Should be the caption on their website.

He's sounding a little confrontational in the press conference this morning.  At least with his tone.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 20, 2015, 08:52:26 am
Did you see that Mr "F**f your breath" cop's father is a major and the head of the task force that he and Bates were working on? Does the sheriff's office have rules on Nepotism? Son working for father? The major also is the one that signed off on most of Bate's training records? This doesn't sound iffy at all, not even a little bit. 

Bates also bought sunglasses for the taskforce? Since when are sunglasses official equipment?

The whole sheriff's office is rotten, top to bottom. 


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 20, 2015, 09:58:18 am
Did you see that Mr "F**f your breath" cop's father is a major and the head of the task force that he and Bates were working on? Does the sheriff's office have rules on Nepotism? Son working for father? The major also is the one that signed off on most of Bate's training records? This doesn't sound iffy at all, not even a little bit.  
Bates also bought sunglasses for the taskforce? Since when are sunglasses official equipment?

The whole sheriff's office is rotten, top to bottom.  

They were upset the media isnt focused instead on the Criminal Center expansion.

They definitely need to get out of the SWAT business.
Selling off those big military vehicles will buy some realy comfortable and fuel-efficient patrol cars.  Air conditioning is nice.

But

The FBI has reviewed the fatal shooting of an unarmed black man by a Tulsa County volunteer deputy and determined that the sheriff's department did nothing wrong, Sheriff Stanley Glanz said Monday.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/20/fbi-reviews-tulsa-shooting/26068507/






Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 20, 2015, 10:24:58 am
As usual, its everyone else's fault. An institution that needs to go to rehab.

Plaintiff atty's who have sued them multiple times (gee, I wonder why?),  the media who speculate rather than just repeating our press releases and of course former employees. Cause former employees are always simply malcontents fired for good cause, not people of integrity who refused to sign fake papers.

FBI says we're okay so that's that. Nothing to see here, move along.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2015, 11:36:58 am
As usual, its everyone else's fault. An institution that needs to go to rehab.

Plaintiff atty's who have sued them multiple times (gee, I wonder why?),  the media who speculate rather than just repeating our press releases and of course former employees. Cause former employees are always simply malcontents fired for good cause, not people of integrity who refused to sign fake papers.

FBI says we're okay so that's that. Nothing to see here, move along.


Yeah....but ya know who keeps voting for them...?   And no, it sure as he$$ ain't me!



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on April 20, 2015, 01:40:48 pm
To thicken the plot a bit, the blog Talking Points Memo just reported that Ziva Branstetter and Dylan Goforth have resigned from the Tulsa World. Executive Editor Susan Ellerbach told the TPM reporter that Branstetter and Goforth resigned to pursue "another opportunity" and that their departures was "not related to the article" (about Bates' training records being falsified).

Update: Branstetter, Cary Aspinwall, and Goforth all say they left the TW after word got around that they were considering jumping ship to join a local news web site being set up by someone. The paper gave them an ultimatum to stay or go. They went. Branstetter and Aspinwall were finalists for this year's Pulitzer for local news reporting because of their reporting on the botched execution.

I don't think "pursuing another opportunity" was accurate. It seems that they had a job offer in hand.

They stand by the story about the falsified training documents. The TW is more ambivalent.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on April 20, 2015, 03:30:23 pm
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/20/shakeup_at_newspaper_that_reported_on_corruption_in_police_shooting_case/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 21, 2015, 01:14:38 pm
Sadly we are still getting international attention on this. From the UK to Brazil people don't understand what happened. In the UK (as reported by Vice News) they don't understand why someone who is akin to a safety patrol was hunting down felons while armed with a gun (only elite forces have guns in Britain, and they shoot at less criminals in a decade than we kill in a year, hell, maybe even a month). In Brazil they don't understand why a retired person was allowed to pay money in order to play western sheriff.

So far in 2015: Tornado deaths. Dead bodies at Walmart. Android v. Apple shooting. And buy-a-badge oops! #TulsaLife

Regarding the FBI -

They investigated just to see if there was potential civil rights violations to investigate. As it appears everyone agrees this was an accidental shooting and the underlying issue is HOW and if a buy-a-badge lack of training buddy system led to that... there isn't really a civil rights case to look into. So they were cleared on this issue for civil rights violations.

They did NOT say the TCSO is fine. Such statements are akin to going to the dentist and holding up the cleaning bill as proof that you are in perfect health (no cavities, I'm going to live forever!).

The repeated insistence that there were no policy violations is scary. Not sure if it is bad because they sooo want it to be true they just keep repeating it, because they really think it is true, or, god forbid, because an under-trained conflict ridden volunteer employee can use an authorized gun to accidentally kill someone and somehow actually not violate any policies.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2015, 04:55:35 pm
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/20/shakeup_at_newspaper_that_reported_on_corruption_in_police_shooting_case/


We just don't get it in this city, county, and state.


Based on a personally witnessed past experience, they were given fair warning to leave.  Or else.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2015, 05:01:03 pm
Sadly we are still getting international attention on this.

In Brazil they don't understand why a retired person was allowed to pay money in order to play western sheriff.

The repeated insistence that there were no policy violations is scary. Not sure if it is bad because they sooo want it to be true they just keep repeating it, because they really think it is true, or, god forbid, because an under-trained conflict ridden volunteer employee can use an authorized gun to accidentally kill someone and somehow actually not violate any policies.



Why sadly??  How will we ever get light into these dark places if there is not visibility by as many people as possible??

What is even more scary is how quickly this is likely to die down (no pun intended) and all the slithering creatures get to crawl back into their holes away from the light of day to continue in their ways.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 21, 2015, 05:06:27 pm

Why sadly??  How will we ever get light into these dark places if there is not visibility by as many people as possible??

What is even more scary is how quickly this is likely to die down (no pun intended) and all the slithering creatures get to crawl back into their holes away from the light of day to continue in their ways.



I think what CFs point is, this is negative publicity for the city, which seems to be all this city and state get on a national level.  It started, at least from my limited recollection based on the time I've been alive, with the Oklahoma County Commissioner scandal, then the OKC bombing and so on and so forth.

I hate seeing us in this light.  Sure, it gets our name out there.  Do you really want it out there for this?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 21, 2015, 05:42:24 pm
Hoss is correct. I'm glad the light will help professionalize the TCSO.

But I grow weary of the bad, embarrassing, or controversial national press. Method at Walmart. Corruption. Idiot laws. Disasters (earthquakes, tornados, bombings). Executions (apartment last year, good Friday, or the botched kind).

I hope we plug the gathering place for positive PR. Something good!


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2015, 07:42:15 pm
I think what CFs point is, this is negative publicity for the city, which seems to be all this city and state get on a national level.  It started, at least from my limited recollection based on the time I've been alive, with the Oklahoma County Commissioner scandal, then the OKC bombing and so on and so forth.

I hate seeing us in this light.  Sure, it gets our name out there.  Do you really want it out there for this?


I absolutely do NOT want our name out there for the carp we keep getting it out there for!

I agree with him - it is sad that we get this kind of publicity.  This state is for the most part much better than that.  We just have too many lunatic fringe elements that have hijacked the public space and make us come off looking bad.  Very bad.  We aren't bad...we are for the most part very good people with many virtues.  We are friendly, courteous, kind....think Boy Scout oath type stuff.   

Except....like Bates getting to vacation in the Bahamas - shows exactly how seriously the DA and Judge is taking this.  (Kind of like the Mark Allen Eaton situation a few years ago with DA and Judge Glassco - except this time the gun was loaded when the trigger was pulled.)

If this is the only kind of thing that gets us news, then I hope we fade into obscurity.  Soon.


Where are the calls for Glanz to leave?  It sounds like he is "doubling down" and yapping about how the people elected him, and he ain't going nowhere.  Let's see what the next election holds - sadly, I bet I can predict it.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 21, 2015, 07:45:22 pm
Hoss is correct. I'm glad the light will help professionalize the TCSO.

But I grow weary of the bad, embarrassing, or controversial national press. Method at Walmart. Corruption. Idiot laws. Disasters (earthquakes, tornados, bombings). Executions (apartment last year, good Friday, or the botched kind).

I hope we plug the gathering place for positive PR. Something good!


I sincerely hope it does.

It is wearying.


I talk to a lot of people out of state and am probably in the top 10 biggest cheerleaders for the state.  Yeah, really....  It gets so very difficult when the first thing in any discussion is "What is the matter with you guys?"



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 21, 2015, 10:42:28 pm

Where are the calls for Glanz to leave?  It sounds like he is "doubling down" and yapping about how the people elected him, and he ain't going nowhere.  Let's see what the next election holds - sadly, I bet I can predict it.


They seem to be doubling down on demonizing the victim by releasing 14 more minutes of the sting operation, but it got real weird when they tried to justify setting up the operation near the parking lot of Celia Clinton Elementary School:

Clark said the Sheriff’s Office had 30 minutes to set up the transaction with Harris, which didn’t give the task force enough time to notify the school. And, Clark said, notifying the school might have tipped Harris off that he was at the center of a sting operation.

“Here’s the thing,” Clark said. “If you tell me today that you’re going to put me in the penitentiary the rest of my life, chances are I’d rather be carried in a box than to go sit in a cell ... not only did (Harris) die, he was prepared to die that day.”


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/officials-business-and-elementary-school-at-site-of-tulsa-county/article_ca658f85-442e-5d6b-8108-d0e5e6d8daaf.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 22, 2015, 08:48:30 am
What. The. Hell.

Brewster is not helping.

His argument is that selling a firearm for $300 to an old white man meant that Eric Harris was prepared to die? He ran from the police because he wanted to die? He cried out "I can't get my breath" because he wanted to die?

Stupid comment.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 22, 2015, 09:47:10 am
That's what you sound like when you're justifying, rationalizing and making decisions based on false assumptions.

I am totally perplexed by the behavior of the court and the protection of a little policing kingdom by folks who should know better. A man charged with manslaughter, who sold his insurance business for millions and buys his way into law enforcement, shoots a man who posed little threat to anyone (laying on the ground with a knee on his neck).  He is arrested and given release on bond for $25,000. He asks to be allowed to keep his vacation plans in the Bahamas. Now the same guy who made a poor decision in grabbing a 357 from his car rather than a Taser and couldn't tell the difference in his hand has this decision....is it worth going back to Tulsa to face 10 years for shooting a criminal or staying here in the Bahamas with my millions? Hmmm.

We are a smart community, so what the H is going on?



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 22, 2015, 10:14:26 am
Let me also say, I would be extremely surprised if the common man, arrested on such charges, would be allowed to leave the country under the same circumstances (large pot of money at hand, likelihood of serving prison time, unwilling to face reality).

And truly stunned if that common man were non WASP. Particularly black.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2015, 04:38:33 pm
Let me also say, I would be extremely surprised if the common man, arrested on such charges, would be allowed to leave the country under the same circumstances (large pot of money at hand, likelihood of serving prison time, unwilling to face reality).

And truly stunned if that common man were non WASP. Particularly black.


Got to be 'connected'.  That works every time. 

Of course he will be back....lol.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2015, 04:39:41 pm

We are a smart community, so what the H is going on?



Cronyism.  Graft.  Political patronage.  Corruption at many levels. 

Need more??



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 22, 2015, 05:55:03 pm
FIRE EVERYONE NOW. If the following CBS report is true:

All administrators, supervisors, the Sheriff... Anyone who used influence needs to be terminated, pensions revoked, and investigated for corruption and jail time.

Bates was investigated in 2009. The investigation concluded his training was questionable, his behavior inappropriate (including using his private car to pull people over), he was given preferential treatment, and supervisors inappropriately used influence to make others violate policy. When people questioned his behavior they were told to go talk to the sheriff (my BFF) if they had a problem. No changes were made, status quo continued until someone was killed - then they STILL denied they did anything wrong.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tulsa-sheriffs-office-had-investigated-robert-bates-in-2009/

Unreal. Smollen just made another million dollars.  Serious heads should roll.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2015, 06:10:47 pm
Given past experience with events like the county commissioner scandal, Glanz and all his buddies will be re-elected easily and/or retained in jobs.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 22, 2015, 06:41:32 pm
Smolen. And its plural.

No way this just goes away H. Too many people know too much. I also think it will impact the negotiations relating to the jail. How can these guys be trusted?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 22, 2015, 08:42:45 pm

No way this just goes away H. Too many people know too much. I also think it will impact the negotiations relating to the jail. How can these guys be trusted?



Think thats guaranteed? 
Heres excerpts from todays newspaper, recalling an incident we were just as certain would bring about big reforms:


A judge has tossed a lawsuit filed by a woman who sued the federal government after being imprisoned and then freed in the wake of the Tulsa police corruption probe.

U.S. District Judge John Dowdell dismissed Larita Barnes’ case Tuesday after ruling in favor of the federal government’s request for summary judgment.
Barnes sued the federal government in 2012 after she was freed from prison in 2009. She had served less than a year on a 10-year sentence stemming from two drug distribution-related convictions.
Her sentence was overturned by an appellate court that ruled her convictions were based on fabricated evidence and perjured testimony from two law enforcement officers and an informant. That same year, the federal government initiated an investigation into corruption within the Tulsa Police Department.

In the course of that investigation, the government learned that a federal law enforcement officer had participated in a scheme that involved stealing drugs and money, selling confiscated or stolen drugs to drug dealers for personal monetary gain, and directing others to sell drugs, according to the judge’s ruling.
Dowdell found that while the ATF agent, Brandon McFadden, conspired with former Tulsa police Officer Jeff Henderson to build a false criminal case against Barnes, the federal government could not be held liable for McFadden’s acts.
Dowdell said in his opinion that he sympathized with Barnes for what “she endured due to the actions of a criminal employee of the ATF and his brothers in crime,” adding that the case reflected “another sad tale of corrupt law enforcement officers.”

Barnes’ attorney, Mark Lyons, said he “respectfully disagreed” with Dowdell’s ruling and planned to appeal.
Lyons said he interprets the ruling to say that “when someone takes deliberate efforts to illegally prosecute somebody, that it takes them outside of their position as a government employee and it absolves the government of any liability for their acts.”


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/judge-tosses-former-inmate-s-tulsa-police-atf-corruption-lawsuit/article_a066e5ce-e0ac-56de-9104-d15e90815c54.html







Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 23, 2015, 07:55:41 am
Smolen. And its plural.

No way this just goes away H. Too many people know too much. I also think it will impact the negotiations relating to the jail. How can these guys be trusted?


I would have thought putting county commissioners in prison would have stopped them from being re-elected, too, but it didn't.  And no reform, to boot!!!  Bonus!!

Too many things stay stupid in this state even with all the high level of publicity they get to expect this to get any traction.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 23, 2015, 08:40:44 am
Perhaps my optimism rules lately. You guys may be right. One thing for sure, none of this ends without change in leadership and bypassing the chain of command for that change. Experience tells me these changes don't come from existing power structures.

Plaintiff attorneys that aren't afraid to stand up to the status quo and realize they can profit from doing so, serve as the catalyst for the process. Pretty soon it becomes an embarrassment how much money is spent for unprofessionalism and corruption.

A friend of mine who is in touch with the homeless community relayed to me what one street guy told him. He said, "I don't mind the TPD. They harass you a bit and keep you moving. But the sheriff's deputies just beat on you." Hearsay for sure and hard to document but more believable than the Sheriff's department lately.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 23, 2015, 09:48:27 am
I starting to wonder if Sheriff Glanz now has his own criminal legal problems.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Breadburner on April 23, 2015, 11:56:19 am
Bates should have used Smallwood.....


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 23, 2015, 01:47:50 pm
Bates should have used Smallwood.....

Heh, heh, heh, he said “small wood”.  Poor guy.  Heh, heh, heh, heh.

(http://geekswing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/beavis-and-butthead-laughing.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 23, 2015, 01:58:32 pm
Perhaps my optimism rules lately. You guys may be right.


A friend of mine who is in touch with the homeless community relayed to me what one street guy told him. He said, "I don't mind the TPD. They harass you a bit and keep you moving. But the sheriff's deputies just beat on you." Hearsay for sure and hard to document but more believable than the Sheriff's department lately.



What's the matter with you??  Optimism??  Why...??  Where is this insanity coming from??  lol....



That's how Sheriff's dept was in 1968, too.  And pretty much every year in between.  The song remains the same.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: carltonplace on April 23, 2015, 02:26:06 pm
We would be better off with Boss Hog. How does Glanz get taken out of office? Does he just get pressured to leave? An elected official can't be fired.

Prediction: Glanz has been using funds from the Tulsa Jail for his own purposes.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 23, 2015, 02:46:09 pm
We would be better off with Boss Hog. How does Glanz get taken out of office? Does he just get pressured to leave? An elected official can't be fired.

Prediction: Glanz has been using funds from the Tulsa Jail for his own purposes.

I don't know if this is true, but a comment on the TW site said that there is no recall mechanism for a Sheriff in Oklahoma. If true then we are stuck with him until decides to leave or is voted out.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 23, 2015, 02:55:04 pm
Too late for us now, but next election cycle.... (google is your friend).

Phillip Mamouf-Wifarts



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on April 23, 2015, 03:58:00 pm
Sometimes you have to avoid using terms that are as specific as "recall." There is no recall mechanism, but there are a couple of ouster options. Ouster of public officials is not a political event. It is judicial in nature. it requires proof of specific things such as the commission of a crime in office, oppression or partiality in office, bribery, embezzlement, and the like.

One option that appears somewhere in Title 22 begins with the DA, the County Commissioners, or a grand jury. Another, found in Title 51, begins with the Attorney General. I vaguely recall there being some sort of petition process in there, but it has been a good long time since I've had to deal with any of these issues. I'm out of town at the moment and short of the time needed to research this, but it will give you a nudge in the right direction.

There have been city and county officials removed from office under these statutes, so if you read the cases construing the statutes you can get an idea what you're dealing with. When it's working, OSCN is a good resource.

I don't know if this is true, but a comment on the TW site said that there is no recall mechanism for a Sheriff in Oklahoma. If true then we are stuck with him until decides to leave or is voted out.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 23, 2015, 05:35:33 pm
I think Cynical is on to something. I don't have any idea how it's actually done with a sheriff, but elected county officials can be dismissed by the state legislature so there has to be a way to get rid of the sheriff, too. Obviously, he has no conscience and doesn't care what anyone thinks of him.

Just catching up on this thread and was glad to see the comments about the vacation in the Bahamas. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found that to be disgusting.

Have there been any marches about this the past few days?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 23, 2015, 07:20:17 pm
Sometimes you have to avoid using terms that are as specific as "recall." There is no recall mechanism, but there are a couple of ouster options. Ouster of public officials is not a political event. It is judicial in nature. it requires proof of specific things such as the commission of a crime in office, oppression or partiality in office, bribery, embezzlement, and the like.



Well, since none of these is considered bad enough to disqualify for office, we are just kinda stuck for now.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking - one of Glanz's minions said this in February;

“If you look at the direction that law enforcement has taken under the current (U.S.) attorney general, I think if a candidate for sheriff had a ‘D’ beside his name, I’d have to look elsewhere,” said Tulsa County Undersheriff Tim Albin, who represented Glanz at the committee meeting.

And then Glanz himself said in a statement;

“Keeping the election of county officers (like sheriff) partisan allows the parties to engage in the vetting process to determine the best candidate for the position,” Glanz wrote. “Without the organized efforts of political parties to do this, the public can be inundated with unqualified candidates who may sound qualified but in fact are not.”

So he is admitting that Republicans are not qualified, since he obviously isn't qualified.  He must be right....

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/nonpartisan-elections-for-sheriffs-gets-committee-nod-despite-tulsa-county/article_480817a5-69f7-5c0c-82cd-4651f6f3a0b9.html




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 24, 2015, 06:22:29 am
Another day, another lie exposed:

In 2008 other deputies reported concerns over Deputy Bates, private use of county prolerty, and special treatment. It ks stated that Bates was hired without proper training. Again, nothing was done.

But hey, Sheriff Gland says he was A OK, no indications there were issues, no complaints, no special treatment, and certainly no policy violations. I mean, sure, there is a looong history of such things. But why mention that when you can try and cover it up?

The 2008 report isn't important. The CBS story on the 2009 investigation, no big deal. The Tulsa World story on forged records that have now disappeared - so what?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/concerns-about-bates-training-go-back-years-accord/nk2rD/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 24, 2015, 08:21:25 am
Good read of specific interviews in the chain of command.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/262941138/Internal-affairs-investigation-into-Tulsa-County-Reserve-Deputy-Robert-Bates

I do believe there’s enough information coming to light there should be a grand jury investigation of Glanz, Albin, and the TCSO.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ibanez on April 24, 2015, 08:28:17 am
I'm still trying to figure out how Glanz's thinks his argument of, paraphrasing here since I don't remember the exact quote, I can change the rules and waive training requirements any time I want and have done so many times in the past is a good argument to be making. If anything it proves the point that he has allowed unqualified deputies on the force in the past and is prone to changing the rules when/if the need to play favorites arises.


At least that's my take on it.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 24, 2015, 08:31:28 am


But hey, Sheriff Gland says he was A OK, no indications there were issues, no complaints, no special treatment, and certainly no policy violations. I mean, sure, there is a looong history of such things. But why mention that when you can try and cover it up?



http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/concerns-about-bates-training-go-back-years-accord/nk2rD/

I love his remarks about policy violations. He said something to the effect  that what he directs, what he says......IS POLICY!
Therefore there can be no policy violations if it is what he ordered. That's not the characteristic of an elected leader, that's a king.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on April 24, 2015, 08:42:37 am
I love his remarks about policy violations. He said something to the effect  that what he directs, what he says......IS POLICY!
Therefore there can be no policy violations if it is what he ordered. That's not the characteristic of an elected leader, that's a king.

He's obviously suffering from narcissism.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 24, 2015, 02:51:14 pm
Kunzweiler is calling for an outside investigation into the TCSO after the story broken by The Frontier this morning.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 24, 2015, 02:52:47 pm
Kunzweiler is calling for an outside investigation into the TCSO after the story broken by The Frontier this morning.

Could be the Sheriff's position at the jail may be changing....


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 24, 2015, 03:04:06 pm
Mayor Calls for Bids on Running Tulsa County Jail

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-calls-bids-running-tulsa-county-jail (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-calls-bids-running-tulsa-county-jail)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201202/3169640-1807308964.jpg)

Quote
Tulsa Mayor Dewey Bartlett wants the county’s criminal justice authority to get bids on operating the jail on a regular basis.

Bartlett said it’s not necessarily to oust the sheriff’s department, but to ensure their costs are competitive.

"If we get proposals back that are pretty well equal with what we're spending now, then I think we can pat everybody on the back and say, 'Hooray, thank you very much, you're doing a great job,'" Bartlett said.

The sheriff’s department operates the jail now and running at a loss. Bartlett said he’s wanted an efficiency study of jail operations for some time.

"A request for proposals would essentially accomplish the same thing," Bartlett said. "Might be a much longer process, but we'll get a good idea, hopefully, if a majority of the authority agrees with it."

The criminal justice authority is considering the idea, though it may take a couple months for the trustees to bring it to a vote.

The proposal presents the possibility of a private company running the jail for a profit. Bartlett said the authority would need the ability to fire anyone doing a poor job.

"I'm not saying it has to be, you know, we have one month and they have to leave. I think that would be unfair," Bartlett said. "But we have to have a process in place to where if we feel that things are not being done properly ... then we have to have the ability to terminate a contract."

Bartlett said prolonged jail fee negotiations between the city and county helped push him toward this proposal.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 24, 2015, 03:19:06 pm
District Attorney Looking Into Tulsa County Sheriff Beyond Manslaughter Case

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/district-attorney-looking-tulsa-county-sheriff-beyond-manslaughter-case (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/district-attorney-looking-tulsa-county-sheriff-beyond-manslaughter-case)

Quote
In light of new information submitted to his office, Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler announced today there will be further investigation of the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office.

"I am highly concerned about recent allegations that have surfaced, and I have been in contact with independent law enforcement agencies regarding further investigation into these matters," said District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler in a statement. "To protect the integrity of these investigations, I will not give details or comment further on any investigation that is underway."

Kunzweiler's office has requested and received many documents from the sheriff's office since the April 2 shooting of Eric Harris.

Kunzweiler has charged 73-year-old reserve deputy Bob Bates with second-degree manslaughter in Harris' death.

Attorneys for the Harris family recently questioned inconsistencies in training records for Bates. The sheriff's office now says some of the records may have been lost when they transitioned from paper copies to digital.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 24, 2015, 04:36:20 pm
Kunzweiler is calling for an outside investigation into the TCSO after the story broken by The Frontier this morning.

the Frontier? Do you have a link?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 24, 2015, 04:42:45 pm
the Frontier? Do you have a link?

https://www.scribd.com/doc/262941138/Internal-affairs-investigation-into-Tulsa-County-Reserve-Deputy-Robert-Bates


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 24, 2015, 05:04:58 pm
oh...the humanity.....


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 24, 2015, 06:01:51 pm
http://www.veronews.com/32963_features/exclusive-interview-tulsa-deputy-dreams-of-returning-to-vero/article_2a491912-e937-11e4-86ed-cbfaf83ae7a4.html?fb_action_ids=10205149857280918&fb_action_types=og.shares


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 24, 2015, 06:36:47 pm
No one said he was a bad guy, a racist, heartless murderer. He is a victim of his own largesse. The system found a whale and proceeded to harvest it.

I have no problem with him, other than he became accustomed to preferential treatment right up to his trip to the Bahamas. Now, it turns out, he didn't even consider us his family home. Big deal. Florida is great if you have the money to live there.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 24, 2015, 06:40:10 pm
http://www.veronews.com/32963_features/exclusive-interview-tulsa-deputy-dreams-of-returning-to-vero/article_2a491912-e937-11e4-86ed-cbfaf83ae7a4.html?fb_action_ids=10205149857280918&fb_action_types=og.shares

I hope he left a tip after that fluff job.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 24, 2015, 09:20:31 pm
No one said he was a bad guy, a racist, heartless murderer. He is a victim of his own largesse. The system found a whale and proceeded to harvest it.

I have no problem with him, other than he became accustomed to preferential treatment right up to his trip to the Bahamas. Now, it turns out, he didn't even consider us his family home. Big deal. Florida is great if you have the money to live there.

I could care less about Bates at this point, he screwed up and cost someone their life, that’s the fact.  Why was he there in the first place?  If the TCSO were run differently, he would not have been anywhere close to an operation like that and Harris might still be alive, albeit in jail.  I’m more upset about the cavalier attitude of Glanz, Albin, et. al. which allowed this to finally play out.  There were obvious competence issues which were known to the SD which were continually ignored.

The other part which pisses me off equally is the national media’s constant drum beat of: "white cop shoots black man”.  They keep trying to fan the flames of racism even though that’s been well-established this was not the issue here.  Gives better insight into how this has spun out of control on some other nationally notable shootings.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 24, 2015, 09:32:45 pm
I could care less about Bates at this point, he screwed up and cost someone their life, that’s the fact.  Why was he there in the first place?  If the TCSO were run differently, he would not have been anywhere close to an operation like that and Harris might still be alive, albeit in jail.  I’m more upset about the cavalier attitude of Glanz, Albin, et. al. which allowed this to finally play out.  There were obvious competence issues which were known to the SD which were continually ignored.

The other part which pisses me off equally is the national media’s constant drum beat of: "white cop shoots black man”.  They keep trying to fan the flames of racism even though that’s been well-established this was not the issue here.  Gives better insight into how this has spun out of control on some other nationally notable shootings.

Agree completely, this one isn't about race, it's about cronyism and corruption in the Sheriff's office. Let's make sure the right issue in TCSO is addressed.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 24, 2015, 09:45:17 pm
I could care less about Bates at this point, he screwed up and cost someone their life, that’s the fact.  Why was he there in the first place?  If the TCSO were run differently, he would not have been anywhere close to an operation like that and Harris might still be alive, albeit in jail.  I’m more upset about the cavalier attitude of Glanz, Albin, et. al. which allowed this to finally play out.  There were obvious competence issues which were known to the SD which were continually ignored.

The other part which pisses me off equally is the national media’s constant drum beat of: "white cop shoots black man”.  They keep trying to fan the flames of racism even though that’s been well-established this was not the issue here.  Gives better insight into how this has spun out of control on some other nationally notable shootings.




Hows this for doublespeak?

“The release of this document(s) was unauthorized and we are examining how the release occurred. No action was taken at the time, but the existence of this document demonstrates this office’s willingness to investigate and review any allegations of policy violations. We will not comment further."
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/document-reveals-concerns-over-robert-bates-past-a/nk2xd/#sthash.AFxwf9rf.dpuf



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 24, 2015, 09:48:11 pm
What. The. Hell.

Brewster is not helping.

His argument is that selling a firearm for $300 to an old white man meant that Eric Harris was prepared to die? He ran from the police because he wanted to die? He cried out "I can't get my breath" because he wanted to die?

Stupid comment.


The video dump backfires on TCSO... It shows entrapment, and incompetence (the undercover left his walkie talkie on), and they cant even set the correct date and time on the "tamper-proof" screen clock.

http://www.fox23.com/videos/news/tulsa-sheriffs-office-releases-video-of-drug-buy/vDQKqx/

They still see themselves as completely blameless.... even Glanz didnt think it important enough to interrupt his vacation....but Sheriff "We got a law passed that lets us destroy certain records" can use the word "transparency" all he wants....



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2015, 08:35:30 am

The 2008 report isn't important. The CBS story on the 2009 investigation, no big deal. The Tulsa World story on forged records that have now disappeared - so what?




Don't forget the reporters being threatened if they don't leave their jobs.

Wonder if either is still in town...usually ya get 'till sundown to get outa town...



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2015, 08:37:14 am
District Attorney Looking Into Tulsa County Sheriff Beyond Manslaughter Case

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/district-attorney-looking-tulsa-county-sheriff-beyond-manslaughter-case (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/district-attorney-looking-tulsa-county-sheriff-beyond-manslaughter-case)



It's not serious - it's typical "Tim Harris" department whitewash waving of hands.  As evidenced by 'manslaughter' charge.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 25, 2015, 05:17:48 pm

FBI says we're okay so that's that. Nothing to see here, move along.

By now it should be obvious that TCSO has a cozy relationship with the FBI that TPD doesnt.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 25, 2015, 05:21:16 pm
It's interesting neither the mayor nor the city council pulled their heads out of the sand during the TPD corruption scandal, yet now...

Mayor Calls for Bids on Running Tulsa County Jail

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-calls-bids-running-tulsa-county-jail (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-calls-bids-running-tulsa-county-jail)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 26, 2015, 12:34:43 pm
I hate liars. HATE.

No policy violations - was using unauthorized gun.
Bates was fully trained - well known internally he wasn't trained.
Internal investigation did not produce a report - there absolutely was a report.

This is just a tiny example of the overt lies that we now know of. These are not mistakes. These are examples of an elected official lying to the public to cover up the negligent killing of a citizen and internal cronyism.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 26, 2015, 04:09:11 pm
I hate liars. HATE.

No policy violations - was using unauthorized gun.
Bates was fully trained - well known internally he wasn't trained.
Internal investigation did not produce a report - there absolutely was a report.

This is just a tiny example of the overt lies that we now know of. These are not mistakes. These are examples of an elected official lying to the public to cover up the negligent killing of a citizen and internal cronyism.

And refusing all comment to his constituents now.

Glanz is an donkey and has to go.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 26, 2015, 05:25:26 pm
Sadly we are still getting international attention on this. From the UK to Brazil people don't understand what happened. In the UK (as reported by Vice News) they don't understand why someone who is akin to a safety patrol was hunting down felons while armed with a gun (only elite forces have guns in Britain, and they shoot at less criminals in a decade than we kill in a year, hell, maybe even a month). In Brazil they don't understand why a retired person was allowed to pay money in order to play western sheriff.


The repeated insistence that there were no policy violations is scary. Not sure if it is bad because they sooo want it to be true they just keep repeating it, because they really think it is true, or, god forbid, because an under-trained conflict ridden volunteer employee can use an authorized gun to accidentally kill someone and somehow actually not violate any policies.




Having every half-truth or outright boastful lie scrutinized and debunked by some of the worlds best journalists does actually result in a form of "transparency," but obvously not what the people under the microscope would prefer.

It may be harsh medicine, but its exactly what we need.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 26, 2015, 06:51:14 pm
I don't know if this is true, but a comment on the TW site said that there is no recall mechanism for a Sheriff in Oklahoma. If true then we are stuck with him until decides to leave or is voted out.

TW responds:

Ouster proceedings are unusual in recent decades, but not unheard of. In 2010, Pawnee County Sheriff Roger Price was removed from office after a jury convicted him on two counts of willful neglect.

Removal of public officials not subject to impeachment is dealt with in at least one portion of the state constitution and two sections of state statutes.

Article 8, Section 2 of the constitution provides for removal of “All elective officers, not liable to impeachment ... in such manner and for such causes as may be provided by law.”

Title 22, Chapter 23 and Title 51, Chapter 3 of the state statutes both lay out ouster procedures. The laws date from 1910 and 1917, respectively, and appear to be little changed from when they were used to remove Tulsa Police Chief John Gustafson from office following the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot.

Ouster proceedings can be initiated by the governor, the public or, in the case of county officials, the three county commissioners or two county commissioners and the county treasurer.

The last case applies only when the subject of the ouster is the remaining county commissioner.

Title 51 allows the public to petition the attorney general to initiate proceedings at the request of “1 percent of the registered voters that voted in the previous election ... .”

Under Title 22, a complaint must be submitted to a grand jury. Title 22 is somewhat broader in its description of grounds for impeachment, listing habitual or willful neglect of duty, gross partiality, oppression, corruption, extortion, willful maladministration, habitual drunkenness and failure to account for public funds and property.

Generally, the process is similar under both titles. The charges are investigated, usually by the attorney general’s office, and, if warranted, an ouster trial is held.

Typically, such trials are in district court, but in some cases the state Supreme Court can claim original jurisdiction.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/ouster-of-county-officials-unusual-but-not-without-precedent/article_beac54e0-c873-5c42-83af-f12ca535f966.html




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2015, 07:26:51 pm
I hate liars. HATE.

No policy violations - was using unauthorized gun.
Bates was fully trained - well known internally he wasn't trained.
Internal investigation did not produce a report - there absolutely was a report.

This is just a tiny example of the overt lies that we now know of. These are not mistakes. These are examples of an elected official lying to the public to cover up the negligent killing of a citizen and internal cronyism.


You can't be surprised.  This has been going on for a very, very, long time.  In too many arenas....



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 26, 2015, 07:49:05 pm
Well, I for one am surprised and I've lived here a long time. You have to have faith in leaders and policing or you have chaos. Am I surprised that absolute power is absolutely corrupting? No.

Look, we are a stratified community. A fairly large, imaginary wall protects those with money, education and power from those who have little of each. Only if you've spent time in the lower echelons of the populace have you had a chance to see the crap some of these guys get away with. Its usually considered anecdotal and not part of the system by those of us with faith.

Now we have to wonder if we've deceived ourselves and if we really care since its outside the walls.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2015, 08:15:32 pm
Well, I for one am surprised and I've lived here a long time. You have to have faith in leaders and policing or you have chaos. Am I surprised that absolute power is absolutely corrupting? No.

Look, we are a stratified community. A fairly large, imaginary wall protects those with money, education and power from those who have little of each. Only if you've spent time in the lower echelons of the populace have you had a chance to see the crap some of these guys get away with. Its usually considered anecdotal and not part of the system by those of us with faith.

Now we have to wonder if we've deceived ourselves and if we really care since its outside the walls.


It's those rose colored glasses!  Take them off...now!!

Have faith?  That could be true if there weren't such a pantheon of examples with reasons NOT to have that faith.  We are rife with them in this state from city to county to state.  Specifically, each city, county and state level of government.  And even more at the federal level.

My most recent witnessing of the real - not at all imaginary - large wall that separates those with money, education, and power has been detailed here for a while.  The case of Mark Allen Eaton - the guy that tried to kill the kids of some acquaintances of mine.  And for whom Judge Glassco and Tim Harris gave the protection of that wall.  You remember that don't you?  The one where the guy plead guilty at his court appearance and Glassco said, "Whoa...not so fast!!  Your connections say not to let you do that, so I won't!  It might stain the family reputation for what end?  It's just two of those lower echelon types who have no money, education or power...."

There have been many other examples - many personally witnessed, and many, many more detailed in news reports throughout the decades.  I have previously mentioned an incident where an acquaintance was told to leave the state (native Tulsan) or else...he did.  Didn't wanna die then for some unknown reason.   Wonder what happened to those two reporters that 'resigned' ??

I would like to spend some time behind that wall just to see how it feels, but not likely, since I don't have the money and power, so doesn't really matter to me that much.  Not everyone here at this site enjoys the privilege that comes from living behind that wall.

Actually goes back to the very beginning when we were "founded" by the celebrated Sooners - cheats, thieves, and liars who 'gamed' the system for their own personal advantage ahead of others.  Not even mentioning what was done to the Native Americans in those days...

But, I keep being the eternal optimist and keep working toward making things better.  It is a fairly steep uphill path.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 26, 2015, 08:22:35 pm
TW responds:

Ouster proceedings are unusual in recent decades, but not unheard of. In 2010, Pawnee County Sheriff Roger Price was removed from office after a jury convicted him on two counts of willful neglect.

Removal of public officials not subject to impeachment is dealt with in at least one portion of the state constitution and two sections of state statutes.

Article 8, Section 2 of the constitution provides for removal of “All elective officers, not liable to impeachment ... in such manner and for such causes as may be provided by law.”

Title 22, Chapter 23 and Title 51, Chapter 3 of the state statutes both lay out ouster procedures. The laws date from 1910 and 1917, respectively, and appear to be little changed from when they were used to remove Tulsa Police Chief John Gustafson from office following the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot.

Ouster proceedings can be initiated by the governor, the public or, in the case of county officials, the three county commissioners or two county commissioners and the county treasurer.

The last case applies only when the subject of the ouster is the remaining county commissioner.

Title 51 allows the public to petition the attorney general to initiate proceedings at the request of “1 percent of the registered voters that voted in the previous election ... .”

Under Title 22, a complaint must be submitted to a grand jury. Title 22 is somewhat broader in its description of grounds for impeachment, listing habitual or willful neglect of duty, gross partiality, oppression, corruption, extortion, willful maladministration, habitual drunkenness and failure to account for public funds and property.

Generally, the process is similar under both titles. The charges are investigated, usually by the attorney general’s office, and, if warranted, an ouster trial is held.

Typically, such trials are in district court, but in some cases the state Supreme Court can claim original jurisdiction.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/ouster-of-county-officials-unusual-but-not-without-precedent/article_beac54e0-c873-5c42-83af-f12ca535f966.html




So everyone needs to contact their county commissioner.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2015, 08:46:33 am
How much is 1% of the voters in the last election?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2015, 08:49:19 am

It's those rose colored glasses!  Take them off...now!!


But, I keep being the eternal optimist and keep working toward making things better.  It is a fairly steep uphill path.




I like the optimism rose colored glasses give. But I am not naïve. In fact reality is most important to me right now.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 27, 2015, 08:52:25 am
Undersherriff Tim Albin resigned


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2015, 09:05:41 am



Hows this for doublespeak?

“The release of this document(s) was unauthorized and we are examining how the release occurred. No action was taken at the time, but the existence of this document demonstrates this office’s willingness to investigate and review any allegations of policy violations. We will not comment further."
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/document-reveals-concerns-over-robert-bates-past-a/nk2xd/#sthash.AFxwf9rf.dpuf



http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oklahoma-deputy-who-mistook-gun-for-taser-not-properly-trained-report-says/ar-BBiJtZh

This is getting to be an obnoxious fight for control of the versions of the story by the press. Note the use of the words and phrases in this article explaining how he was shot. He.... "was struggling with an officer on the ground", "pulled his gun instead of taser". Not much of a struggle with a knee on the back of your neck by a burly deputy, and certainly wouldn't call it fighting. And no, he didn't pull a taser in the heat of the struggle. He emerged from his vehicle with it in his hand.

The outlandish remark from his attorney that he didn't need additional training because he had been a police officer 25 years ago. Not for very long and not sure why he left but....You know back before cell phones, dash cams, tasers etc when strangleholds were legal during arrests. No problem.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on April 27, 2015, 09:08:47 am
And it begins:

http://www.newson6.com/story/28907392/tulsa-county-undersheriff-tim-albin-announces-retirement


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 27, 2015, 09:59:40 am
And it begins:

http://www.newson6.com/story/28907392/tulsa-county-undersheriff-tim-albin-announces-retirement

Quote
"I will continue to examine my organization, and there will be more changes in the coming days as I work to restore the integrity to the Sheriff's Office which the public has come to expect," Glanz said.

I like how Glanz is now tossing his people under the bus while still admitting to nothing himself. That's really adding to Glanz's public image.

The only way to "restore inegrity" is for Glanz himself to quit. His buddies need to be canned too, but if he stays nothing is really changed.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2015, 11:02:59 am
I'm told he has an out. His ego is blocking the door. One prefers to leave a proud legacy not one of being forced out.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 27, 2015, 09:56:28 pm
I like how Glanz is now tossing his people under the bus while still admitting to nothing himself. That's really adding to Glanz's public image.

The only way to "restore inegrity" is for Glanz himself to quit. His buddies need to be canned too, but if he stays nothing is really changed.



Momentum.

OTOH, some things need to stop right away.
No more drug task force, or QT beer theft task force, or violent anything task force thats going to involve military weapons like tear gas, flash-bangs or tanks.
No more shoot-em-up safaris with the FBI or U.S. Marshals.  Driving 100 through midtown or planning sting operations outside of schools must end.

Nothing is going to happen soon.  Police have been planning for a sort of a civil war for years, and its going to take just as long to unravel this mess.
Next in line:  The Huckaby Klan, including the #fuckyourbreath deputies.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 28, 2015, 10:01:07 pm
What. The. Hell.

Brewster is not helping.

His argument is that selling a firearm for $300 to an old white man meant that Eric Harris was prepared to die? He ran from the police because he wanted to die? He cried out "I can't get my breath" because he wanted to die?



Brewster may have his own problems now:

On the recording, Bates suggests he did favors at the sheriff's office for Brewster, his attorney in the federal case. When Berman asks Bates about his legal costs, Bates responded that he had not yet received a bill.
"I haven't paid him yet," Bates said, then chuckled. "Let's say, I mean, he knows I've done some s--t for him at the sheriff's office for some of his clients."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ap-report-tulsa-reserve-deputy-robert-bates-boasts-of-connections/article_6f65484e-0e4d-5ce8-b578-3023f9cfb776.html


...and then CLEET, the people that certify cops (and should be pulling the certification of bad ones but dont), were OK with Bates training from 50 years ago.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 29, 2015, 07:01:45 am
Same story:

The "f*** your breath" guy was being supervised by daddy. Not only a bad idea, but yet another direct policy violation.

Funny how Glanz (which, by the way, is pretty much Latin for d!ck head) can know the policies, know the facts, and see no policy violations. The press has to learn the policy and pry the real facts out, but can see multiple policy violations. The word we are looking for starts with a C, it ends either with ronyism or orruption. Maybe both.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 29, 2015, 07:49:08 am
KWGS reported this morning that the 2009 report had Glanz's initials on it, meaning that he read and approved the report. Does that make him culpable for the death along with Bates?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 29, 2015, 08:50:42 am
KWGS reported this morning that the 2009 report had Glanz's initials on it, meaning that he read and approved the report. Does that make him culpable for the death along with Bates?


If one accepts the concept of responsibility of management, then yes.  He is culpable.

Or does management only accept responsibility when they want to??



Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on April 29, 2015, 11:01:38 am
The Frontier has done excellent coverage on this story due to sources inside TCSO. I've followed their Twitter feed for the latest: @readfrontier


Title: Re:
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2015, 02:01:10 pm
The Frontier has done excellent coverage on this story due to sources inside TCSO. I've followed their Twitter feed for the latest: @readfrontier

As I understand The Frontier is a few ex-Tulsa World writers including Cary Aspenwall and Kevin Canfield.  They are totally fearless in their reporting.  Makes me wonder who underwrote the cost to lure some great writers away from the TW.


Title: Re:
Post by: cynical on April 29, 2015, 02:12:45 pm
Bobby Lorton

As I understand The Frontier is a few ex-Tulsa World writers including Cary Aspenwall and Kevin Canfield.  They are totally fearless in their reporting.  Makes me wonder who underwrote the cost to lure some great writers away from the TW.


Title: Re:
Post by: Hoss on April 29, 2015, 02:40:39 pm
Bobby Lorton


The two who initially were reporting on the TCSO story (Ziva Branstetter and Dylan Goforth) also have landed there.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 29, 2015, 02:41:34 pm
Isn't the Goforth family the same that owned Fourth National years ago? I worked for a paint store back in 1981 that was owned by Conover and Sutton (Bob Sutton of Sutton Oil and the giving angel for Drillers stadium until he was found to be corrupt) and the person that signed the paychecks was Betty Goforth.


Title: Re:
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2015, 02:54:46 pm
Bobby Lorton


Thank you.  Doing some more digging it appears they will be subscription-only with no advertising.  Pretty good gamble but it makes them accountable to no one other than their subscribers.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 02, 2015, 05:18:55 pm
Former prosecutors have said insurance executive Robert Bates could have easily been charged with first degree manslaughter instead of 2nd degree.

Tulsa Sheriff Stanely Glanz should be charged with reckless endangerment for allowing his good friend, campaign contributor, and department sugar daddy, pay-to-play deputy sheriff and carry a gun and taser with fatal results.

http://www.cleveland.com/darcy/index.ssf/2015/04/police_shooting_videos_darcy_c.html

(http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/darcy/photo/17550733-mmmain.jpg)

Prosecutors just cant take off the kid gloves?
Bail for Baltimore protestors is twice that of the bail for the officers charged in the murder that sparked the protests.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/teen-faces-higher-bail-baltimore-cops-accused-murder



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 03, 2015, 07:45:34 am
This kind of thing, be it accidental or blatant misconduct, has been happening for decades. The only reason not punishing police for killing civilians is controversial now is because of video. When there is no video, there still is no charge.  Unless the Feds come in, life departments and officers will not get in trouble.

Hence, the fake outrage over body cameras.

Anyone recall a corrupt, violent, or murderous officer getting punished without video evidence that was leaked to the public first?

Anyone think departments don't know of police who are corrupt, violent, or murderous who deserve to be punished?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 03, 2015, 05:09:12 pm
This kind of thing, be it accidental or blatant misconduct, has been happening for decades. The only reason not punishing police for killing civilians is controversial now is because of video. When there is no video, there still is no charge.  Unless the Feds come in, life departments and officers will not get in trouble.

Hence, the fake outrage over body cameras.

Anyone recall a corrupt, violent, or murderous officer getting punished without video evidence that was leaked to the public first?

Anyone think departments don't know of police who are corrupt, violent, or murderous who deserve to be punished?




Lance LoRusso, an attorney who spent 12 years as an officer in Cobb County, Georgia, said he doesn’t necessarily think police brutality is on the rise, but the use of technology — both by citizens and police officers — is.

“If you see a video of a convenience store robbery and an officer walks in and just shoots the suspect who is pointing a gun at the clerk, [people might ask], ‘Don’t you have to give warning first?’ The answer is no,” said LoRusso, the author of “When Cops Kill.” “Not only can they [just take the shot], but in many situations, they must.”

...but if the "suspect" is actually a Concealed Carry permit holder who, in the moments prior, just thwarted a robbery and saved the lives of the clerk and customers, the officers "shoot first and ask questions later" action fails to serve the public safety.

John Whitehead, a constitutional law and human rights attorney who founded the civil liberties nonprofit Rutherford Institute, says the inappropriate use of force by cops is not only on the rise, but it’s a “huge crisis” that people are “starting to wake up to.”

Whitehead, author of “Battlefield America: The War on the American People,” said the tactics used by police today would not have been seen 30 years ago, arguing that training changed after 9/11 with the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security.

“The military trains a lot of the SWAT teams,” he said. “When SWAT teams come in the door … they’re coming in as military now.”

“The old view of a policeman was ‘protect and serve;’ you don’t see that anymore. When a policeman looks at you now he looks at you differently,”

Whitehead added, noting that officers often refer to citizens as “civilians” now, something he think also speaks to the militarization of the force.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/04/24/is-police-brutality-really-on-the-rise/



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 05, 2015, 11:10:24 am
"I'd known Tim for quite ahile and had a lot of trust in him. Maybe I had too much trust." - Sheriff Stanley Glanz, on former Undersheriff Tim Albin.  Front page, Tulsa World, 5/5/2015.

That noise you hear is a subordinate getting thrown under the bus. Hard.

Stanley Glanz was friends with the guy. Stanley went on trips with him and showed off pictures of the two fishing together. Appointed him the chair of his election campaign. Took money from him. Allowed the department to take gifts from him. Was the person that Bates name dropped when he was called out for crap. Stanely was the guy that stood up for Bates and said everything was fine, the training was up to date, and there had never been any problems. Stanely is the guy who appointed Albin and supervised him.

But this mess is Albin's fault?

Coward.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on May 05, 2015, 11:27:04 am
"I'd known Tim for quite ahile and had a lot of trust in him. Maybe I had too much trust." - Sheriff Stanley Glanz, on former Undersheriff Tim Albin.  Front page, Tulsa World, 5/5/2015.

That noise you hear is a subordinate getting thrown under the bus. Hard.

Stanley Glanz was friends with the guy. Stanley went on trips with him and showed off pictures of the two fishing together. Appointed him the chair of his election campaign. Took money from him. Allowed the department to take gifts from him. Was the person that Bates name dropped when he was called out for crap. Stanely was the guy that stood up for Bates and said everything was fine, the training was up to date, and there had never been any problems. Stanely is the guy who appointed Albin and supervised him.

But this mess is Albin's fault?

Coward.

(http://stuffwetalkabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/thrown-under-the-bus.jpg)

He didn’t just throw him under it, he threw it in reverse and backed over him for good measure.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on May 05, 2015, 11:48:57 am
(http://stuffwetalkabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/thrown-under-the-bus.jpg)

He didn’t just throw him under it, he threw it in reverse and backed over him for good measure.

Glanz is a d!ck.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 05, 2015, 04:20:30 pm
For some reason, Julius' little march just seems so appropriate right here...right now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B0CyOAO8y0



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 06, 2015, 02:28:05 pm
The Frontier is good work.  Going to be a PITA if/when they go subscription-only.



Protest group seeking grand jury on sheriff’s office
By DYLAN GOFORTH and ZIVA BRANSTETTER

https://medium.com/@readfrontier/protest-group-seeking-grand-jury-on-sheriff-s-office-b1b324ebfe6b?source=latest


The Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office has paid more than $700,000 from the jail tax fund during the past four years to outside law firms to defend an avalanche of civil rights lawsuits against the sheriff and his employees, an investigation by The Frontier has found.

https://medium.com/@readfrontier/frontier-exclusive-sheriff-paid-outside-attorneys-700-000-from-jail-fund-to-defend-civil-rights-81d4c0d33bfb?source=latest


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 07, 2015, 12:20:52 pm
The Frontier is good work.  Going to be a PITA if/when they go subscription-only.

The Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office has paid more than $700,000 from the jail tax fund during the past four years to outside law firms to defend an avalanche of civil rights lawsuits against the sheriff and his employees, an investigation by The Frontier has found.

https://medium.com/@readfrontier/frontier-exclusive-sheriff-paid-outside-attorneys-700-000-from-jail-fund-to-defend-civil-rights-81d4c0d33bfb?source=latest


Mayor Has Jail Questions

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201202/3576021-2020710045.jpg)

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-has-jail-questions (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/mayor-has-jail-questions)

Quote
Mayor Bartlett is raising questions regarding a $700,000 expenditure of Tulsa County Jail funding. A published report by the Frontier says the money was used to pay for legal representation in civil rights lawsuits.

Mayor Bartlett is not sure that is a wise use of jail funding, when the district attorney's office could represent the county. He also questions the legality of using jail funding for a purpose other than funding the operation of the jail.

This is all tied to the growing scandal involving the Tulsa County Sheriff's office following the death of suspect by a reserve deputy. The City and the County have been at odds over the jail operation for years.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: sauerkraut on May 09, 2015, 08:53:31 am
Yep, this is Pat Campbells favorite topic.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 11, 2015, 11:57:50 am
Another Top Sheriff's Official Put on Administrative Leave

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201505/shannon_clark.jpg)

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/another-top-sheriffs-official-put-administrative-leave (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/another-top-sheriffs-official-put-administrative-leave)

Quote
A news release from Sheriff Stanley Glanz announces that Major Shannon Clark has been placed on administrative leave with pay, pending further review and evaluation of the job duties and work performance of Major Clark. Chief Deputy Michelle Robinette will assume Clark's administrative duties over operation of the jail and Terry Simonson will assume public information officer responsibilities. It's the latest in a shake up of the Sheriff's Office following the shooting of an unarmed suspect by a reserve deputy. Undersheriff Tim Albin has resigned, and Major Tom Huckeby is also on administrative leave.  Petitioners are seeking signatures for a grand jury investigation of the Sheriff's Office. The Sheriff said again today he will not resign.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: carltonplace on May 12, 2015, 10:58:05 am
How was the mouthpiece culpable in Bates actions?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 12, 2015, 11:18:25 am
How was the mouthpiece culpable in Bates actions?

Sheriff and Simonson say so?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 12, 2015, 11:20:25 am
Tulsa Volunteer Deputy Cancels Bahamas Trip after Shooting

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-volunteer-deputy-cancels-bahamas-trip-after-shooting (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-volunteer-deputy-cancels-bahamas-trip-after-shooting)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201504/bob_bates_enters_court_house.jpg)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — A former Tulsa County volunteer deputy charged with fatally shooting a restrained man has canceled his Bahamas vacation after "he was ridiculed in the national press."

Attorney Corbin Brewster told the Associated Press Tuesday that 73-year-old Robert Bates canceled the June trip because of media "scrutiny and pressure."

Brewster says Bates had been looking forward to the vacation with his grandchildren, which was planned before the April 2 shooting. He says Bates changed his plans in recent days.

Bates has pleaded not guilty to second-degree manslaughter in Eric Harris' killing. He says he confused his stun gun and handgun. Brewster says Bates resigned in the days following the shooting.

During his arraignment in April, a district court judge told Bates he could leave the country for one month.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 12, 2015, 02:45:49 pm
Another Member of the Tulsa Sheriff's Top Command is Leaving

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/another-member-tulsa-sheriffs-top-command-leaving-0 (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/another-member-tulsa-sheriffs-top-command-leaving-0)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — A top administrator in the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office is set to resign after an internal memo was leaked indicating he had covered up the inadequate training of a volunteer deputy who fatally shot a restrained man.

Sheriff's office attorney Meredith Baker said Tuesday that Maj. Tom Huckeby plans to resign on Aug. 1. Baker did not explain why.

Huckeby didn't return requests for comment by the Associated Press. Baker says Huckeby is on vacation.

Reserve deputy Robert Bates fatally shot Eric Harris on April 2. The 2009 memo indicated Huckeby was among department officials who pressured critics to ignore Bates' training deficiencies.

An undersheriff featured in the memo has also stepped down since it was leaked.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 12, 2015, 06:50:34 pm
How was the mouthpiece culpable in Bates actions?

Sex crime investigation.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 12, 2015, 06:51:18 pm
A father and son at the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office who are embroiled in controversy in the aftermath of a fatal shooting by a reserve deputy may have been in violation of a policy that prevents family members from supervising one another.
Maj. Tom Huckeby heads the Uniformed Operations Division of the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office. The position gives him oversight of the task forces that his son, Deputy Michael Huckeby, either served on or helped out with, including the Violent Crimes Task Force. That task force conducted the undercover gun deal April 2 that led to Eric Harris’ death.

Sheriff Stanley Glanz told the Tulsa World that he was unaware the younger Huckeby was under his father’s chain of command.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/father-s-line-of-supervision-over-son-at-tulsa-county/article_f892250e-6eb9-5fa1-b811-5c6b3e4053f5.html



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 13, 2015, 09:05:51 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/city-cease-and-desist-letter-to-county/pdf_c6f8c435-631a-5ad9-a71c-2ea3ace9061e.html

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/6f/c6f8c435-631a-5ad9-a71c-2ea3ace9061e/5553ed04d794c.pdf.pdf



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 14, 2015, 02:06:19 am
Wow, and I thought TPD Officers Gary Temple and Will DeMeere were bad apples when they were school resource officers at Hale from 1979 through 1981. Sounds like the tree is being shaken and it won't stop any time soon.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on May 14, 2015, 08:12:50 am
They ran a story on KRMG morning news that the TCSO (or the sheriff) is threatening a libel suit against the originators of the petition to bring a grand jury investigation.  I could not find reference to it online, but it did come up on a Google search from KFAQ.  So much for the right to petition for a redress of grievances without repercussion.  Every day, the picture painted of Glanz is much darker and shows a man who seems disconnected with reality and the law.

Quote
Sheriff Prepared to Take Legal Action if False Allegations Made in Petition

Tulsa (KFAQ) - The Tulsa County Sheriff is prepared to take legal action in accordance with state law if any of the allegations made in a petition to impanel a grand jury to oust him are proven false or made with malice or with an ulterior or illicit purpose.

The department's  director of governmental affairs and a spokesperson for the sheriff responded to KFAQ Friday after a judge's ruling that a community activist calling for the ouster of Sheriff Stanley Glanz may move forward to the next step in impaneling a grand jury.

Terry Simonson told KFAQ the first hurdle in a grand jury process is "very low."

"The judge's approval in no way signals any merit to the claims or the truthfulness of them," said Simonson, who added that the real "heavy lifting" is yet to come.

"That is, getting 5,000 signatures to impanel a jury and then a 12-member jury to find criminal charges are warranted," said Simonson. "We are confident that once all of the truth is presented there will be no basis for any criminal charges."

Simonson pointed to state statute governing petitions for grand jury investigations, which states, "Any person responsible for the creation, drafting or circulating of a grand jury petition may be held liable for civil damages for libel or slander due to any false allegation made in the body of said petition, if such allegations are proven to be made with malice and with an ulterior or illicit purpose."

"If any of the allegations that are leveled against the Sheriff are false and brought with malice as these are," said Simonson, "he has civil recourse with either a libel or slander charge brought against the petitioners which the Sheriff would be prepared to do."

Community organizer Marq Lewis, a leader of the group We the People, filed for a petition to impanel a grand jury to oust Glanz earlier this week. His attorney, Laurie Phillips, told Marla Carter of 2 Works for You, she is not worried about meeting the threshold.

District Court Judge Rebecca Nightingale signed an Order of Sufficiency on Friday, stating Lewis met the requirements to proceed with the next step in the grand jury process.



The court found:

The face of the petition contains reasonably specific identification of the areas on inquiry; and
The face of the petition contains general allegations sufficient to warrant a finding that such inquiry may lead to information which, if true, would warrant a true bill of indictment.
Lewis now has 45 days to meet the next requirement in the grand jury process, which is to collect the legal signatures of 16 percent as many citizens as the last gubernatorial electorate, not to exceed 5,000 signatures.

Glanz has stated repeatedly he does not intend to step down in his seventh term as Tulsa County's sheriff.

(Copyright KFAQ. All rights reserved.)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on May 14, 2015, 08:44:49 am
They ran a story on KRMG morning news that the TCSO (or the sheriff) is threatening a libel suit against the originators of the petition to bring a grand jury investigation.  I could not find reference to it online, but it did come up on a Google search from KFAQ.  So much for the right to petition for a redress of grievances without repercussion.  Every day, the picture painted of Glanz is much darker and shows a man who seems disconnected with reality and the law.


Anything that Terry Simonson is involved with automatically has a pretty thick layer of slime on it.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on May 14, 2015, 08:46:24 am
In addition to the sleaze that oozes from Simonson's statements, he completely misses the point of the grand jury investigation by focusing only on its power to return criminal indictments. The grand jury was sought in order to seek ouster of the Sheriff, something that doesn't require proof of a crime.

He also slides over the extremely high burden the Sheriff would have to sue the petitioners for defamation. As a public figure, he would have to prove that the petitioners made statements that were (1) false, (2), damaging, and (3), made with actual knowledge that the statements were false or with reckless disregard for the truth of the statements. State law cannot overrule NY Times v. Sullivan. This burden is so high that public officials have generally given up trying to sue for defamation. Perhaps no one has told Simonsson about that.

No statement I have heard so far about the Sheriff satisfies this standard. This is a transparent attempt to stifle the 1st Amendment rights of the petitioners and to discourage citizens from signing the petition.

What is emerging from this escalating series of disclosures is that the voters of Tulsa County elected yet another politician to retire on the job, leaving his department to behave like Animal Farm, with apologies to George Orwell. All of this stuff happening within his department, much of it involving his closest advisors, and he knew nothing.

They ran a story on KRMG morning news that the TCSO (or the sheriff) is threatening a libel suit against the originators of the petition to bring a grand jury investigation.  I could not find reference to it online, but it did come up on a Google search from KFAQ.  So much for the right to petition for a redress of grievances without repercussion.  Every day, the picture painted of Glanz is much darker and shows a man who seems disconnected with reality and the law.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: DolfanBob on May 14, 2015, 09:17:48 am
Looks like the National press is going with the he was high on Meth story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3081506/Eric-Harris-high-METH-fatally-shot.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 14, 2015, 09:51:16 am
Looks like the National press is going with the he was high on Meth story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3081506/Eric-Harris-high-METH-fatally-shot.html

...which doesnt help TCSO's credibility when they swore that Harris "confessed to being on PCP" at a time when he was unconscious and intubated.

As for suing the petitioners, Its my understanding that the process grants the petitioners a degree of immunity from libel (much like speaking on the floor of the house or senate does) by having to prove malice.
"If any of the allegations that are leveled against the Sheriff are false and brought with malice as these are," seems a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.

Good thing the voters approved more jail funding so it can be spent on legal fees pursuing this.
https://medium.com/@readfrontier/frontier-exclusive-sheriff-paid-outside-attorneys-700-000-from-jail-fund-to-defend-civil-rights-81d4c0d33bfb?source=latest


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on May 14, 2015, 09:58:23 am
...which doesnt help TCSO's credibility when they swore that Harris "confessed to being on PCP" at a time when he was unconscious and intubated.

As for suing the petitioners, Its my understanding that the process grants the petitioners a degree of immunity from libel, much like speaking on the floor of the house or senate does.  Good thing the voters approved more jail funding so it can be spent on legal fees pursuing this.
https://medium.com/@readfrontier/frontier-exclusive-sheriff-paid-outside-attorneys-700-000-from-jail-fund-to-defend-civil-rights-81d4c0d33bfb?source=latest

Is PCP even a drug that exists in Tulsa?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 14, 2015, 10:12:49 am
Is PCP even a drug that exists in Tulsa?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2014/08/21/the-shooting-of-michael-brown-and-the-phantom-menace-of-drug-crazed-blacks

The ME did specifically test for it, according to the toxicology report.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on May 16, 2015, 05:52:49 am
Tulsa Volunteer Deputy Cancels Bahamas Trip after Shooting

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-volunteer-deputy-cancels-bahamas-trip-after-shooting (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-volunteer-deputy-cancels-bahamas-trip-after-shooting)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201504/bob_bates_enters_court_house.jpg)


How interesting! This mustn't have hit national news or was only on there briefly. It's amazing that Bates didn't have the common sense/compassion to realize his vacation should've been cancelled after what he'd done and only did so after it made him look bad to others. I imagine his victim also had plans of doing fun things with his family, but Bates took care of that! I don't feel a bit sorry for him or his family for having to skip this vacation.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on May 16, 2015, 05:56:15 am
Looks like the National press is going with the he was high on Meth story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3081506/Eric-Harris-high-METH-fatally-shot.html

They can go with whatever story they choose, but it doesn't explain the action of Bates. Blaming the victim has always been an asinine thing to do.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on May 16, 2015, 09:06:04 am
It's just part of the scene. They deal with meth-heads all of the time and usually don't shoot them. Then Bates comes along, forgets the chain of command training he never got, steps out of his perimeter control gig to be closer to the action, gets all excited, forgets the use of deadly force training he never got, shoots him, and the rest is history. And the Sheriff's reaction to the problem was (1) everything was done correctly, besides, Bates is no older than I am, (2), well, not quite everything was done correctly, but the FBI says it's cool, (3), well I didn't know any of this stuff, so I'm going to fire everyone who was responsible, uh, except me. Now go away and let me take a nap.


They can go with whatever story they choose, but it doesn't explain the action of Bates. Blaming the victim has always been an asinine thing to do.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on May 16, 2015, 12:03:54 pm
They're circulating the petition to remove Stanley Glanz from office at the Blue Dome Arts Festival.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/o1UHoMJhoDY1JtGkftyGOUZNZrVPbqoRRIl5nccicDcm=w564-h423-no)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OipwI02JsXQ/VVeUDV6GtpI/AAAAAAAAa-o/sYq5yPZG-GA/w564-h423-no/blue%2Bdome%2Barts%2Bfestival_ejwagner_p5166859.jpg)


Title: Re:
Post by: patric on May 16, 2015, 01:13:33 pm
They're circulating the petition to remove Stanley Glanz from office at the Blue Dome Arts Festival.

Hasn't always been a smooth process in Tulsa.

http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/medical-marijuana-backers-claim-harrassment-tulsa-/ngMpQ
http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Tulsa-police-approach-marijuana-petitioners-26284618


Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on May 16, 2015, 01:32:22 pm
When they set up a card table on public land near Reasors in Owasso, someone called the police to complain about people selling marijuana on 86th Street.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 16, 2015, 04:41:37 pm
Is PCP even a drug that exists in Tulsa?


It is a stock excuse for 6 cops to dogpile a citizen.  TPD is just as guilty.

Funny that no one believes anything PIO Shannon Clark says anymore, yet they cant remember most of the lies throughout the years.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on May 29, 2015, 11:47:33 am
Per TW -
Quote
"Effective today Mr. Shannon Clark is no longer an employee of the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office," the statement said.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 30, 2015, 05:43:18 pm
This kind of thing, be it accidental or blatant misconduct, has been happening for decades. The only reason not punishing police for killing civilians is controversial now is because of video. When there is no video, there still is no charge.  Unless the Feds come in, life departments and officers will not get in trouble.

Hence, the fake outrage over body cameras.

Anyone recall a corrupt, violent, or murderous officer getting punished without video evidence that was leaked to the public first?

Anyone think departments don't know of police who are corrupt, violent, or murderous who deserve to be punished?


Who really thinks the Okmulgee County District Attorney (or any area DA, for that matter) will be unbiased?  Too many conflicts of interest.

Cant use OSBI; Glanz is on the board and they mostly do whitewashes for small town departments, anyway.
Cant use FBI; their incestuous relationship with TCSO includes the cover-up of the accidental shooting of Russell Doza in 2010.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1070794/pg1?disclaimer=1

DOJ?  Amnesty International?  League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Jammie on May 31, 2015, 07:13:43 am
That's so sad! The poor guy's offense was sleeping and being nearly deaf! They can always use the excuse, "I feared for my life." That's always worked for them in the past.

This reminds me of the man who was walking down the street with a pellet gun that he'd just bought. The officer supposedly yelled at him a few times and said he didn't comply so he shot him in the back several times, killing the man. While on the witness stand, they'd asked the shooter if there was any reason that the man didn't comply and the officer said there was no reason. They had video from local stores showing the man just before he was shot and he was wearing ear buds, but when more responders arrived, the buds were in his pocket. You just have to wonder who put them there.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 19, 2015, 09:50:42 am
They're circulating the petition to remove Stanley Glanz from office at the Blue Dome Arts Festival.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/o1UHoMJhoDY1JtGkftyGOUZNZrVPbqoRRIl5nccicDcm=w564-h423-no)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OipwI02JsXQ/VVeUDV6GtpI/AAAAAAAAa-o/sYq5yPZG-GA/w564-h423-no/blue%2Bdome%2Barts%2Bfestival_ejwagner_p5166859.jpg)

So, what is the difference between keeping the names and addresses of a grand jury secret, and keeping the names and addresses of people signing a petition to empanel a grand jury secret?

After the threat to sue those who merely signed the petition, I can see why they would need legal protection.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/we-the-people-oklahoma-cites-threats-in-asking-to-keep/article_b555d214-1a97-54c5-86de-db5efed87f19.html


Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on June 19, 2015, 10:21:07 am
On their FB page, the petition organizers said their volunteers have been threatened.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 20, 2015, 07:54:09 pm
On their FB page, the petition organizers said their volunteers have been threatened.


When someone representing a police department (like Simonson) goes on record saying the may sue anyone who signs a petition, that has a chilling effect on not only free speech but the democratic process as a whole.

Definitely reenforces the purpose of the petition, IMHO, but law-abiding citizens excercising their legal rights shouldnt have to live in fear of government retaliation.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 25, 2015, 09:26:53 pm
Bet nobody expected this:


Sheriff Stanley Glanz says he has no choice but to use taxpayer dollars to challenge a grassroots effort to oust him from his elected position.

Glanz said the funds that will go to the Tulsa-based law firm of McDonald, McCann, Metcalf and Carwile will come from the Sheriff’s Office’s fee account. That account includes money from drug or property seizures and contracted work.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/sheriff-stanley-glanz-says-he-must-use-taxpayer-funds-for/article_b8be7a6d-2a0c-543f-befe-97df30f9578b.html





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 17, 2015, 06:44:01 pm
The #fuckyourbreath deputies get off with nothing more than having to watch a powerpoint.


Two Tulsa County sheriff’s deputies involved in the take-down of Eric Harris when he was fatally shot by a reserve deputy in April had disciplinary hearings Friday and remain employees, according to a Sheriff’s Office official.
Spokesman Justin Green confirmed the hearings for Deputies Joseph Byars and Michael Huckeby were connected to the Harris shooting. However, Green said it is an internal affairs matter so he can’t provide further details. The two are still employees of the Sheriff’s Office, he said.
KOTV reports Byars received no discipline and Huckeby must retake “custody and control” training.
Sheriff’s Office video shows Byars telling Harris, “F- K your breath,” after Harris uttered, “I’m losing my breath.” Huckeby can be seen with his knee on Harris’ head while Harris lay wounded on the ground.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/tulsa-county-deputies-involved-in-eric-harris-take-down-remain/article_9b920dc5-6692-5034-89d5-463decdceafe.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Breadburner on July 18, 2015, 07:00:21 am
http://abc7chicago.com/archive/9044918/

 (MILWAUKEE, Wis.) -- A 7-month-old baby is alive thanks to quick actions by a sheriff's deputy in Wisconsin.
A mother pulled over to the side of an interstate in Milwaukee after her baby began choking on milk. She called 911. Milwaukee County Sheriff's Deputy Jeffrey Mike answered the call and performed CPR on the baby on the hood of his squad car.

Highway cameras captured his efforts. He says he was just acting on instinct.

"So it was pretty, it was traumatic for me to do it. But I'm glad everything worked out the way it did, so," Deputy Mike said.

Paramedics arrived a short time later and took the 7-month old to the hospital.

The baby is doing just fine.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 18, 2015, 07:52:12 am
Did the TCSO have anything to do with the CPR on the baby in Wisconsin? Or was it Wisconsin police who showed up when called and did their job? I mean, its fantastic that you can find examples of police doing what they're paid to do without bad behavior, but that's the norm. That's what most first responder encounters should be and what most are. I hope everyone recognizes that and we don't need to find an example from 1,000 miles away to prove that point (TPD officer on Cry Baby Hill)!

I'm confused what it has to do with the TCSO corruption probe and negligent execution of Harris.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on July 18, 2015, 11:25:31 am

I'm confused what it has to do with the TCSO corruption probe and negligent execution of Harris.


Maybe Breadburner is our own Donald Trump.   ;D

Drifting a bit more, I came across an accident in rural WI many years ago, and some point after I had began first aid the sheriff's office showed up and took over.  When I say took over, they were fully trained EMTs (not just first responders) who were actively administering aid (as opposed to just "securing the scene").  I told them I was impressed since we dont have that at home in Oklahoma. 

Back to the Harris scandal, TCSO pretty much showed us how high their professional bar is in holding their deputies accountable.
http://www.fox23.com/videos/news/video-tulsa-deputies-to-remain-following-hearing/vDXRyN/

Also, since there is no longer a need to conceal the faces in the killing video, it's time the uncensored version be made public.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Breadburner on July 18, 2015, 12:28:36 pm
TULSA COUNTY, Oklahoma - Deputies have a new tool to fight overdoses. The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office is now equipping patrol cars with an emergency drug called Narcan; and one deputy has already saved a life.
The sheriff's office has had the kits for a couple of weeks, but on Tuesday, Deputy David Allen's training kicked in when he arrived at a home where someone was passed out on prescription drugs.

"I thought it was too late, but when I got closer and tried whether or not she was breathing, I saw that she breathed in a little bit, real shallow and real faint. I got this Narcan in and administered it and it was almost immediate," Allen said.

Dispatchers called Allen and his partner to a home near Turley about someone who overdosed on prescription medication. When he saw the woman on her back he went to his patrol car and grabbed a yellow bag with two vials of the opiate inhibitor Narcan.

7/2/2014 Related Story: Increase In Heroin Use By Public Has TPD Officers Carrying Life-Saving Kit

The Narcan is loaded into a syringe and sprayed into the nose. If there's no change within a few minutes, a second dose can be given.

Allen didn't expect the woman to respond to the emergency medication so quickly.

"When she came to it was like waking the dead. I thought I would give it to her, start CPR on her, eventually she would roll around, but it was almost instant, one or two seconds and she started breathing real deep and that was a nice sigh of relief on my part," he said.

The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office said Allen is the first deputy to save someone's life with Narcan; he said he was just doing his job.

"It's like anything else, they give you a new tool and you want to go use it, I'm glad we were able to save a life with it," said Allen.

EMSA crews carry Narcan, but medics can't always rush into a potentially dangerous situation.

"So what we're trying to do with this is bridge the time gap," Allen said.

The Narcan kits are now in every patrol unit.

"If you know to use it and if you know you have it, nothing else would work but this," Allen said.

Deputies had to go through a four hour training course.

The Narcan will only work on people who are experiencing a drug overdose from heroin or a prescription drug like Oxycontin.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 18, 2015, 05:09:55 pm
Did the TCSO have anything to do with the CPR on the baby in Wisconsin? Or was it Wisconsin police who showed up when called and did their job? I mean, its fantastic that you can find examples of police doing what they're paid to do without bad behavior, but that's the norm. That's what most first responder encounters should be and what most are. I hope everyone recognizes that and we don't need to find an example from 1,000 miles away to prove that point (TPD officer on Cry Baby Hill)!

Both Sheriff Glanz and Breadburner are reaching further into the bag of dirty tricks to try and sabotage the grand jury.
Glanz filed a batch of petitions... one voir dire questions meant to disqualify jurors. 

Aside from declaring anyone who participated in the petition process as ineligible, potential jurors would be excluded if they answer "yes" to "Have you heard anything about this case from any source whatsoever?"


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on August 05, 2015, 11:39:24 am
Sounds like there may be some animosity...

Former Spokesman to Testify Before Grand Jury

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/x_large/public/201504/shannon_clark.jpg)

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/former-spokesman-testify-grand-jury (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/former-spokesman-testify-grand-jury)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — A former spokesman for an Oklahoma sheriff's office says he was wrongfully fired following the fatal shooting of an unarmed man by a volunteer deputy.

Shannon Clark, formerly a major with Tulsa County Sheriff's Office, says he is "looking forward" to testifying before a grand jury investigating allegations of wrongdoing in the agency.

Reserve deputy Robert Bates is accused of killing Eric Harris on April 2. Bates has since resigned from the agency.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: DolfanBob on August 05, 2015, 01:08:51 pm
He's just happy to be back in the spotlight. After you have that "Haven't I seen you on TV?" kinda life. It's tough going back to being just regular ol Shannon.

Probably the same way it would be for Smoot.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on September 30, 2015, 11:26:06 am
Grand Jury Finishes Sheriff's Review

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/grand-jury-finishes-sheriffs-review (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/grand-jury-finishes-sheriffs-review)

Quote
The Tulsa Grand Jury is releasing its report on the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office. Sources tell KWGS the jury is not recommending that Sheriff  Glanz resign or be removed from office. There is no word if any indictments were handed up to the judge.

The Grand Jury was called by a citizens group after a reserve deputy shot and killed an unarmed suspect. Deputy Robert Bates is quoted as saying at the time he mistook his gun for his taser.

The jury reportedly did  have recommendation for the sheriff’s office and its training program. The plans will be discussed later this afternoon.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 30, 2015, 01:06:54 pm
The report was NOT a response to the questions specifically asked of the Grand Jury.

The initial report that has been made public is about as weak as one could imagine. It found that the Sheriffs office did not follow policies and had no policies for other critical items. It suggested that they be followed in the future and/or policies be put in place. Nothing more.

Never once mentioned fabricating training records. Never discussed the previous memo that found bad behavior and plenty of warning signs. Didn't discuss that the Sheriff knew Bates wasn't properly trained and armed him anyway, then lied about it when questions started to be asked. None of that was covered in the initial report - not a word. I assume it is in the findings to be released later.

They are supposed to reveal the detailed findings @2pm. That should be out any minute.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 30, 2015, 01:24:18 pm
Grand Jury Handed down two indictments and a recommendation for Ouster, per the Tulsa World:

Corey Jones ‏@JonesingToWrite 
Grand jury returns ouster proceedings against Glanz and two misdemeanor criminal indictments

Corey Jones ‏@JonesingToWrite 
The 2 indictments are willful violation of the law and refusal to perform official duty

Glanz has stated that he will resign.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on September 30, 2015, 01:41:15 pm
Grand Jury Finishes Sheriff's Review

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/grand-jury-finishes-sheriffs-review (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/grand-jury-finishes-sheriffs-review)


Quote
Updated:The Tulsa Grand Jury is releasing its report on the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Office. The  jury is recommending that Sheriff  Glanz resign or be removed from office. He is named in two indictments for refusal to perform official duty and willful violation of the law.



The Grand Jury was called by a citizens group after a reserve deputy shot and killed an unarmed suspect. Deputy Robert Bates is quoted as saying at the time he mistook his gun for his taser.

The jury reportedly did  have recommendation for the sheriff’s office and its training program. The plans will be discussed later this afternoon.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 30, 2015, 02:07:00 pm
There is one indictment that was filed under seal. The investigation focused on the TCSO and this incident, so one may surmise the indictment is in that regard. A Sheriff resigned this morning, related? Or another charge against Bates (which might be why Brewster had an all day argument up there one day)?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on September 30, 2015, 02:57:54 pm
#glanzgottago #glanzbegone

I’m sure somewhere Paul Tay is doing a happy dance in his best Klinger costume.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on September 30, 2015, 05:36:05 pm

Never once mentioned fabricating training records. Never discussed the previous memo that found bad behavior and plenty of warning signs. Didn't discuss that the Sheriff knew Bates wasn't properly trained and armed him anyway, then lied about it when questions started to be asked. None of that was covered in the initial report - not a word. I assume it is in the findings to be released later.

Whatever became of TCSO lying about Harris "confessing" to being on PCP at a point in time after EMSA confirmed his heart had already stopped?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 01, 2015, 02:06:49 pm
This gives at least partial relief of the problem.  But wait...there's more...next election watch Glanz get re-elected !!



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on October 01, 2015, 02:21:37 pm
This gives at least partial relief of the problem.  But wait...there's more...next election watch Glanz get re-elected !!



he's not running and is resigning.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 01, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
he's not running and is resigning.


He is resigning.  Watch - he will be back to run again in a year or so....he is like our county commissioners - just can't get rid of them.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: DolfanBob on October 02, 2015, 07:35:15 am

He is resigning.  Watch - he will be back to run again in a year or so....he is like our county commissioners - just can't get rid of them.


I doubt it. Stanley has been done for quite some time. I spoke with a Deputy about a year and a half ago and he said that Stanley had already made his mind up about not running for Sheriff again at that time.
Over 20 years with TPD and then 31 as Sheriff had finally wore him down.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 02, 2015, 09:13:23 am
I doubt it. Stanley has been done for quite some time. I spoke with a Deputy about a year and a half ago and he said that Stanley had already made his mind up about not running for Sheriff again at that time.
Over 20 years with TPD and then 31 as Sheriff had finally wore him down.


Too bad that didn't happen earlier.  But watch - must like the Tulsa DA's office (Tim Harris and his clones), we will get another one just like him.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on October 09, 2015, 11:48:25 am
Tulsa Sheriff's Office Withdrawing from Accrediting Agency

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-sheriffs-office-withdrawing-accrediting-agency (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-sheriffs-office-withdrawing-accrediting-agency)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — An embattled Oklahoma sheriff's office is withdrawing from a national law enforcement accreditation agency after its sheriff was indicted by a grand jury last week.

Chief Deputy Michelle Robinette told The Associated Press on Thursday the agency sent the withdrawal letter this week to the Virginia-based Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies, Inc.

Robinette says leaders want to overhaul the agency and implement eight recommendations submitted by grand jurors on how the office could be improved. She says the agency hopes to reapply with CALEA in January.

Jurors indicted Sheriff Stanley Glanz on two misdemeanor counts last week, and the lawman is resigning on Nov. 1.

The grand jury began investigating the agency this summer after a reserve deputy and close friend of the sheriff's fatally shot an unarmed man.

So does that mean I can flip them the bird and tell them to come find me when they're accredited?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2015, 12:58:09 pm
Tulsa Sheriff's Office Withdrawing from Accrediting Agency

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-sheriffs-office-withdrawing-accrediting-agency (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/tulsa-sheriffs-office-withdrawing-accrediting-agency)

So does that mean I can flip them the bird and tell them to come find me when they're accredited?


Let me know when you are gonna try that...I will show up to video the shooting!  Er, uh....tazing...!!



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: carltonplace on October 19, 2015, 02:25:01 pm
The Sherrif's office had some really nice ATV's at the fair this year. At least they had more than one occupant per vehicle.

I think it was one of these:
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/610/img/photos/2014/07/22/49/2b/FernandinaBeachPoliceATV.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 01, 2015, 02:39:58 pm
Open the polling places...Indictment has been handed down by the Grand Jury.


Look how fast this transpired in Chicago (once the yearlong coverup was exposed) compared to the pace here:

Mayor Rahm Emanuel Fires Chicago Police Superintendent
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/chicago-police-rahm-emanuel-laquan-mcdonald.html

The mayor himself is apparently not ready to fall on his sword just yet, but Im guessing county attorney Anita Alvarez will get the ax next.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 01, 2015, 05:57:20 pm

Look how fast this transpired in Chicago (once the yearlong coverup was exposed) compared to the pace here:

Mayor Rahm Emanuel Fires Chicago Police Superintendent
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/chicago-police-rahm-emanuel-laquan-mcdonald.html

The mayor himself is apparently not ready to fall on his sword just yet, but Im guessing county attorney Anita Alvarez will get the ax next.

In what way was what happened in Chicago better than here? Here the video was released almost immediately and the shooter was charged within days. The protests had people of all races and were completely peaceful. The DA supported the investigation into the Sheriff and the Grand Jury and now the entire leadership of the Sheriff's department is gone as a result.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 02, 2015, 10:34:12 am
In what way was what happened in Chicago better than here? Here the video was released almost immediately and the shooter was charged within days.

Fast =/= better.  I was pointing out how quickly things moved once they found they could no longer keep it under wraps.  As for the Harris shooting video, have you ever seen an uncensored version? 


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 02, 2015, 10:48:37 am
Fast =/= better.  I was pointing out how quickly things moved once they found they could no longer keep it under wraps.  As for the Harris shooting video, have you ever seen an uncensored version? 

You say fast isn't equal to better, and then your point is about the speed at which things happened in Chicago after the video was finally released?

Seriously?

So, specifically, regardless of speed, what has Chicago done that we should have. What did they do better?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ed W on December 02, 2015, 01:37:28 pm
In addition to their shooting history, Chicago PD maintained a black site, a secret detention center that came to light this summer. So the apparent speed of their investigation and firings probably hinges on far more than this shooting scandal.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/police-chiefs-resignation-spurs-demands-that-chicago-cops-secret-facility-be-closed/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/police-chiefs-resignation-spurs-demands-that-chicago-cops-secret-facility-be-closed/)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on December 02, 2015, 03:10:04 pm
In addition to their shooting history, Chicago PD maintained a black site, a secret detention center that came to light this summer. So the apparent speed of their investigation and firings probably hinges on far more than this shooting scandal.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/police-chiefs-resignation-spurs-demands-that-chicago-cops-secret-facility-be-closed/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/police-chiefs-resignation-spurs-demands-that-chicago-cops-secret-facility-be-closed/)

There’s nothing secret about Homan Square.  Sounds as if someone is sensationalizing- namely the attorney in the suit and furthermore the author of the story in The Guardian.

People are picked up without probable cause or at least very flimsy probable cause every day in cities all over the country.  Detainees are handcuffed in cells and subjected to harsh questioning.  The spin that CPD is like CIA black ops isn’t vastly different than PD’s all across the nation.  I believe it’s CF that’s alluded to it before- it’s like a fraternity.  smile happens and they circle the wagons. 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-homan-square-lawsuit-20151020-story.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 02, 2015, 06:24:39 pm
People are picked up without probable cause or at least very flimsy probable cause every day in cities all over the country.  Detainees are handcuffed in cells and subjected to harsh questioning.  The spin that CPD is like CIA black ops isn’t vastly different than PD’s all across the nation. 


For more than two decades, Chicago has wrestled with the legacy of a shadowy crew of police detectives accused of torturing men in custody, eliciting false confessions that sent many of those men to prison.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-torture-scandal-casts-long-shadow-over-chicago-n409466
Today they are simply referred to as "Fusion Centers"


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 03, 2015, 09:11:54 am
Tulsa handled the situation way, way better than Chicago did. Tulsa released the video in a somewhat timely manner and the DA announced charges in a reasonable period of time. When it turned out the Sheriff appeared to be lying and changing his story, a group of citizens got a petition together and indicted the Sheriff.

Obviously there were problems, that's why it happened in the first place. But the response, though at times messy and fought by those in power, turned out the way it should have. You can dang near hold it up as an example.

Chicago--- on the other hand. Flat out refused to turn over the video, actively deleted other videos and discouraged witnesses, and only after a lawsuit and 13 months did they release the video. Only THEN was the incident taken seriously and action started. It's pretty clear what would have happened if that lawsuit wouldn't have forced the video to the surface - the plan was the incident would just fade away. And it almost certainly would have.

That indicates a much bigger problem. Not only was the department working to forge statements from the officers, but the department administrators who saw the video were quiet about it. The internal affairs (or equivelent) did nothing. The DAs office. The Mayors office. Everyone with power either did nothing, took the police word for it, or participated in the cover up.

The video goes public and suddenly the DA files charges, interviews about the Burger King video surface, and commissioner is canned, and its a big dang deal.

Gee--- think releasing such videos is important? This is nothing new. It is just now there is a way to hold government agents accountable (when we catch them on video).


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 03, 2015, 10:12:59 am
Tulsa handled the situation way, way better than Chicago did. Tulsa released the video in a somewhat timely manner and the DA announced charges in a reasonable period of time. When it turned out the Sheriff appeared to be lying and changing his story, a group of citizens got a petition together and indicted the Sheriff.

Obviously there were problems, that's why it happened in the first place. But the response, though at times messy and fought by those in power, turned out the way it should have. You can dang near hold it up as an example.

Chicago--- on the other hand. Flat out refused to turn over the video, actively deleted other videos and discouraged witnesses, and only after a lawsuit and 13 months did they release the video. Only THEN was the incident taken seriously and action started. It's pretty clear what would have happened if that lawsuit wouldn't have forced the video to the surface - the plan was the incident would just fade away. And it almost certainly would have.

That indicates a much bigger problem. Not only was the department working to forge statements from the officers, but the department administrators who saw the video were quiet about it. The internal affairs (or equivelent) did nothing. The DAs office. The Mayors office. Everyone with power either did nothing, took the police word for it, or participated in the cover up.

The video goes public and suddenly the DA files charges, interviews about the Burger King video surface, and commissioner is canned, and its a big dang deal.

Gee--- think releasing such videos is important? This is nothing new. It is just now there is a way to hold government agents accountable (when we catch them on video).

I agree completely. A bad shooting happened in Tulsa, the shooter was charged and everyone involved all the way up to the Sheriff is no longer a cop. That's the way it should be.  

I will also point out, the shooting here seems to have been an accident. Chicago was hiding a flat out cold blooded murder by a cop.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on December 03, 2015, 12:10:27 pm
Chicago was hiding a flat out cold blooded murder by a cop.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/60514401.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 03, 2015, 01:48:50 pm
I agree completely. A bad shooting happened in Tulsa, the shooter was charged and everyone involved all the way up to the Sheriff is no longer a cop. That's the way it should be.  

I will also point out, the shooting here seems to have been an accident. Chicago was hiding a flat out cold blooded murder by a cop.

Looking at the timeline, http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kfaq/news/KFAQ-Timeline-of-Events-Leading-Up-to-Indictments-330155301.html 
Im sure TCSO believed at first that a finger in the dike would have done the trick (sacrificing Bates) but no ones hands were clean enough for the task.  The sheriff claimed transparency yet threw everything he could in the path of it.


Whereas Chicago's mayor just wanted to be re-elected.

It took a still-secret city whistleblower, an autopsy report, and a $5-million city settlement with the McDonald family for the public to have any sense that what happened on October 20 did not match what the police originally reported.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/who-can-see-video-of-a-killing/417684/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 03, 2015, 07:46:27 pm
I agree completely. A bad shooting happened in Tulsa, the shooter was charged and everyone involved all the way up to the Sheriff is no longer a cop. That's the way it should be.  

I will also point out, the shooting here seems to have been an accident. Chicago was hiding a flat out cold blooded murder by a cop.




Not completely true.
The members of the elite Violent Crimes Task Force (including the still-redacted stormtroopers in the "F* Your Breath" video) are still in the plans to resume business as usual.


Oh and did you see who wrote that timeline for KFAQ?



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 03, 2015, 10:15:47 pm



Not completely true.
The members of the elite Violent Crimes Task Force (including the still-redacted stormtroopers in the "F* Your Breath" video) are still in the plans to resume business as usual.


Oh and did you see who wrote that timeline for KFAQ?


I'm pretty sure that both the "breath" cops quit under pressure and dad that was head of the unit was fired.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 05, 2015, 10:39:39 am

 Chicago was hiding a flat out cold blooded murder by a cop.


The worse thing is, it wasnt conspiracy, but routine. 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-laquan-mcdonald-chicago-police-reports-met-20151204-story.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 05, 2015, 11:30:16 am
The worse thing is, it wasnt conspiracy, but routine. 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-laquan-mcdonald-chicago-police-reports-met-20151204-story.html

So you agree that however bad TCSO was with good ole boy corruption and cowboy cops for pay it came no where close to what Chicago is. And where Chicago still is while in Tulsa the Sheriff's office has been correctly gutted of it's bad leadership.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on December 05, 2015, 12:56:26 pm
So you agree that however bad TCSO was with good ole boy corruption and cowboy cops for pay it came no where close to what Chicago is. And where Chicago still is while in Tulsa the Sheriff's office has been correctly gutted of it's bad leadership.

To answer a question like that, we would have to know how much of that culture still permeates a given department.

“My bosses knew what I was doing out there,” he said, “and it went on and on. And this wasn’t the exception to the rule. This was the rule.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/25/chicago-cop-charged-in-deadly-shooting-has-a-history-of-misconduct-complaints


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 07, 2015, 10:34:09 pm
I'm pretty sure that both the "breath" cops quit under pressure and dad that was head of the unit was fired.

Where did you hear that?  Can you provide a source?  Link?

OTOH if they weren't made to surrender their CLEET permits then working for Jenks or Bixby or Tulsa Public Schools police is little more than a costume change.
I think we have the right to know that.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on December 07, 2015, 11:09:23 pm
Where did you hear that?  Can you provide a source?  Link?

OTOH if they weren't made to surrender their CLEET permits then working for Jenks or Bixby or Tulsa Public Schools police is little more than a costume change.
I think we have the right to know that.



It was in the World, but IIRC both quit, not fired so I would assume they can work wherever they want.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 10, 2015, 01:19:09 pm
The worse thing is, it wasnt conspiracy, but routine. 




The Chicago Cesspool Authority (aka, police department) has been the way they are for...well, basically forever.  Look up the old videos of the joy they took in beating/maiming people during the 1968 Democratic Convention....


We still fight the same ole battles.  Still have the 'pending Apocalypse' fears.  Still pondering the Eve of Destruction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslV5asj_yM&index=8&list=RDGKaYOW9zMoY



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on December 17, 2015, 12:54:01 pm
Couldn't remember where the main conversation for the Sheriff election was so I'll place this here:

Election Board Scratches 3 of 4 Challenged Tulsa Sheriff's Candidates

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/election-board-scratches-3-4-challenged-tulsa-sheriffs-candidates (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/election-board-scratches-3-4-challenged-tulsa-sheriffs-candidates)

Quote
One challenged candidate in the Tulsa Sheriff’s race will stay on the ballot. Three others, after hearings before the Election Board, are removed. Of the four challenged, only John Fitzpatrick was deemed qualified. He says he was surprised he was challenged in the first place, but confident he meet the requirements.

Arthur Jackson and Eric Richter were stricken from the candidate list for not meeting qualifications to run in the parties where they registered. Candidate Henry Jones did not show for his hearing. He’s wanted on outstanding warrants. Ten candidates are left. The primary is March 1st.

On a side note...the picture below of the election board...you can practically smell the sexual tension.

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/x_large/public/201512/election_board_hearings.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on December 17, 2015, 01:10:27 pm
If I had outstanding warrants, I don’t think I’d be running for Sheriff, but I’m weird that way.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on December 20, 2015, 05:50:10 pm

The Chicago Cesspool Authority (aka, police department) has been the way they are for...well, basically forever.  Look up the old videos of the joy they took in beating/maiming people during the 1968 Democratic Convention....


The 1968 "police riots" were Chicago PD's high water mark.
We know some police who still wear that watershed moment in Chicago's history like a badge of honor.
http://chicagoist.com/2012/05/10/video_alleges_police_intimidation_o.php

"See these guys know, '68, these guys know all about '68," one voice allegedly belonging to a police officer says to the protesters. "What did they say back in '68?" one officer asks.
"Billy club to the fu5king skull."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TudIyxxAboA   and unedited version  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxBJIWdHvD0

When police found out about the video, they arrested them for terrorism.

The most interesting tidbit of information fueling the rumor mill is whether the three (terrorism) suspects have been targeted because of a candid video they shot and released the previous week, showing CPD officers searching their car and intimidating them as they entered Chicago. The video, which gleaned considerable online attention, showed one officer recommending that protesters receive “a billy club to the bucking skull.”
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/22/fishy_arrests_in_chicago/

Same faces, different lies:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcS5P3oFhZM



But you dont have to go to 1968 for the Status Quo:

A Cook County judge on Monday acquitted Chicago police Cmdr. Glenn Evans on charges he shoved his gun down a man's throat in spite of evidence showing the alleged victim's DNA on Evans' gun.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-glenn-evans-trial-verdict-20151214-story.html



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 22, 2015, 10:21:55 am

The 1968 "police riots" were Chicago PD's high water mark.
We know some police who still wear that watershed moment in Chicago's history like a badge of honor.
http://chicagoist.com/2012/05/10/video_alleges_police_intimidation_o.php



I know two people in Tulsa who were politically active - non-violent demonstrations, pamphlets, propaganda, etc., non-drug users, during that time were targeted by TPD.  Fake raids, beatings, destruction of cars, apts, etc by the PD.  Their lawyer ended up telling them that he knew for a fact that they should move out of state.... IF they wanted to remain alive...  Ain't just Chicago, New York, and the LAPD !





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on December 22, 2015, 01:00:50 pm
Chicago was not an aberration in 1968. Just the most visible. Tulsa in 1968 liked their activist policing. Long hairs and afro's were in a hostile environment.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on December 22, 2015, 03:55:05 pm
Chicago was not an aberration in 1968. Just the most visible. Tulsa in 1968 liked their activist policing. Long hairs and afro's were in a hostile environment.

“Get out of the car, long hair!!!"


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on December 22, 2015, 04:07:35 pm
Yes. The song was accurate. Their Baptist momma's didn't dance and their daddies didn't rock and roll.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 03, 2016, 05:59:16 pm
Chicago was not an aberration in 1968. Just the most visible. Tulsa in 1968 liked their activist policing. Long hairs and afro's were in a hostile environment.

Chicago (CNN) How do you make sure police officers are held accountable if most of their full disciplinary records are no longer available?

The Fraternal Order of Police is demanding that the city of Chicago destroy all police misconduct records more than 5 years old, arguing that keeping them is a breach of its bargaining agreement with the city.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/18/us/chicago-police-misconduct-records/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2016, 08:08:57 am
Fun fact:

Police Department's will not release their internal investigations. Since they think they get to keep them secret, they get to wear two different faces! If an internal investigation finds the Officer at fault for something, the department will still have its representative stand up in Court and tell a judge and jury that they did nothing wrong. Knowing the entire time what they are saying to the Court is a lie.

Yay integrity!


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on January 04, 2016, 02:51:42 pm
Fun fact:

Police Department's will not release their internal investigations. Since they think they get to keep them secret, they get to wear two different faces! If an internal investigation finds the Officer at fault for something, the department will still have its representative stand up in Court and tell a judge and jury that they did nothing wrong. Knowing the entire time what they are saying to the Court is a lie.

Yay integrity!


In general you could hide behing the "Its a private personell matter" curtain, but if you have done your politicking, your union would have re-written the Open Records Act to suit your furtiveness.
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/glanz-petitions-dismiss-charge/nptw8/




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: utulsadenverite on January 08, 2016, 12:51:45 pm
I am glad to see this guy go down and the department shenanigans brought to light.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 16, 2016, 04:25:18 pm
I am glad to see this guy go down and the department shenanigans brought to light.

Working hard to regain the public's trust.

"This big fella was sitting up here, and every time Tony would come by on a tractor, he'd flip him off," said spectator Tyler Haire, who filmed the incident.

“We had a race fan that probably had too much beer from my observations after speaking with him,” said Tulsa Deputy Police Chief and Expo Square Liaison officer Dennis Larson. “He kept taunting Tony Stewart as Tony would pass by.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/tony-stewart-confronts-off-duty-deputy-stands-chili/story?id=36332980

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xGzlE0-i-Q

Where was his gun during this?



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ed W on January 16, 2016, 08:32:32 pm
Working hard to regain the public's trust.

Where was his gun during this?



In his pants right next to the potato.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 17, 2016, 04:11:19 pm

"I was in fear for my life" from the guy I was picking a fight with....   ;)



(Corporal) Hess was escorted out of the Expo Center, (Deputy Chief) Larson said.
“I met with the fan outside of the building,” Larson said. “He was under the influence of alcohol, and we suggested to him that he call it a night at the Chili Bowl and that he is welcome to come back today (Saturday).


....at which time did Larson offer him a ride, or did he just stagger back to his police car?






Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on January 17, 2016, 07:18:29 pm
In his pants right next to the potato.

Good thing he didn’t reach for his “taser” eh?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 18, 2016, 08:28:12 am
What are the odds that this intoxicated off-duty sheriff DIDN'T have his service weapon on him?

Intoxicated in public - check
picking a fight - check
requiring police intervention - check
while armed - check


Being in possession of a firearm while intoxicated is a misdemeanor.
Being in possession of a firearm at a bar is a felony.
Being in possession of a firearm while engaged in a crime of violence is a felony.
Engaging in reckless conduct while in possession of a firearm is a felony.

What happened to all the talk about "enforcing the gun laws we currently have?"  

I'm fine with the outcome of this incident, just a drunken idiot being tossed from a sporting event. But the police officer could have, had he wanted, ruined this mans life. When a police officer has the discretion to either do nothing, or charge a person with multiple felonies and put them away for years --- such selective enforcement of the laws essentially makes the laws optional for some people, and mandatory for others.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Breadburner on January 18, 2016, 12:16:21 pm

I know two people in Tulsa who were politically active - non-violent demonstrations, pamphlets, propaganda, etc., non-drug users, during that time were targeted by TPD.  Fake raids, beatings, destruction of cars, apts, etc by the PD.  Their lawyer ended up telling them that he knew for a fact that they should move out of state.... IF they wanted to remain alive...  Ain't just Chicago, New York, and the LAPD !





Bullshit...


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on January 18, 2016, 12:17:51 pm

I'm fine with the outcome of this incident, just a drunken idiot being tossed from a sporting event. But the police officer could have, had he wanted, ruined this mans life. When a police officer has the discretion to either do nothing, or charge a person with multiple felonies and put them away for years --- such selective enforcement of the laws essentially makes the laws optional for some people, and mandatory for others.



I'm curious how this would've gone had this involved someone less well known as Tony Stewart.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 18, 2016, 07:22:45 pm
I'm curious how this would've gone had this involved someone less well known as Tony Stewart.

Or without cameras.

Meanwhile The beat goes on

Physicals jumped from $85 to $800 in TCSO contract linked to former undersheriff
https://www.readfrontier.com/investigation/physicals-jumped-from-85-to-800-in-tcso-contract-linked-to-former-undersheriff/



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on January 18, 2016, 07:53:02 pm
".....she developed the extensive pre-employment physical examination used by TCSO after learning how fitness impacts performance, on-the-job injuries and employee retention in law enforcement agencies."

No kidding. You mean healthy, fit, well adjusted people are better law enforcement employees? Who knew.

Ya gotta' love the county.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on January 18, 2016, 08:28:25 pm
Or without cameras.

Meanwhile The beat goes on

Physicals jumped from $85 to $800 in TCSO contract linked to former undersheriff
https://www.readfrontier.com/investigation/physicals-jumped-from-85-to-800-in-tcso-contract-linked-to-former-undersheriff/


Frontier subscription at $30 a month is a bit of a luxury, but for what they’ve managed to uncover and the people they’ve managed to dog so far, it’s worth every penny to support their cause.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 18, 2016, 09:26:49 pm
I'm curious how this would've gone had this involved someone less well known as Tony Stewart.

For me, sober or drunk, Tony Stewart is one of the last people I would try and pick a fight with.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on January 18, 2016, 09:39:01 pm
For me, sober or drunk, Tony Stewart is one of the last people I would try and pick a fight with.

It’s generally considered a bad idea.

I’ve gotten to know him a little over the years from the Chili Bowl.  He’s a super nice guy with a great sense of humor and a penchant for practical jokes when the bright lights are turned off and the idiots have left the building.  I’ve found the key to most of these guys is they don’t want to talk about their day job (NAPCAR) when they are here playing and generally letting their hair down for the week.  Just like none of us care to think or talk about our day jobs when we are on vacation.

I don’t think going up in the stands was the right thing to do, but I can see the point of view that he’s here vacationing and some A-hole didn’t seem to respect that so he went to put an end to it.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 19, 2016, 09:36:11 am
Unfortunately, being a celebrity comes both with the possibility of drawing large endorsement contracts ($18.5 million in 2013), favorable vendor treatment, and invites to all the right places and all the right races (more than $12 mil in winnings) - but it also comes with being a target for blowhards. He spent decades working on building up his brand to get to the exact spot he is now, and along the way he gained a huge following and a group of detractors. It isn't like he "quietly" amassed his ~$70mil fortune.   His celebrity is a large part of what made him wealthy, and he often enjoys it. But  it isn't something you can just "turn off" when you want to go on vacation any more than the Nike Swoosh can become anonymous.

I completely understand getting irritated at a drunken idiot who is harassing you from the stands. I get that Stewart wasn't there to compete, to cause issues, or to do much of anything other than spend some downtime (yes track maintenance, but for those guys that's downtime).  The drunk was being an donkey, but he paid to be there and was yelling things from the stands at an employee of the venue... which happens constantly in many sporting events.

Can you imagine a coach or a ref running into the stands to confront a hostile and drunken fan?

Stewart react as many people would expect Stewart to react. Did you see anyone in the stands that seemed shocked? Of course not. The guy is a well known hot-head. There's a decent chance the drunk was trying to goad him into reacting to have a story to tell. Stewart could have just as easily asked the race to toss the drunk.

And eventually the drunk was tossed, rightfully so. Stewart faces no real consequence, rightfully so, but should be embarrassed and will be reminded of this in his pending wrongful death lawsuit ("And you regularly lose control and seek confrontation, don't you Mr. Stewart? And those confrontations often turn physical, isn't that true?").

I'm not picking on Stewart, I may have done the exact same thing. But I don't have a lot of sympathy either...


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 19, 2016, 09:41:36 am
Bullshit...


Catchy comeback... always know how to turn a phrase, don't ya...



But once the source is considered, well, yeah, we know...that's the best you can do!  Moment of silence for the less capable...



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 22, 2016, 07:38:01 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/off-duty-tcso-corporal-under-personnel-investigation-for-dustup-with/article_6ff7a3fa-d92d-5ebc-9a7e-9c2add165671.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on January 23, 2016, 11:52:47 am
Another minute or so of video was released by TCSO, showing drug cops searching the wrong apartment and consoling themselves after the shooting.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/newly-released-video-shows-awkward-service-of-eric-harris-search/article_05bd1a81-9a82-5133-b63e-c5245bcc0a00.html

So, why not all the video at this point?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 25, 2016, 08:32:43 am
So, why not all the video at this point?

Because they are trying to protect themselves and serve their own interests. You'll get what transparency we give you citizen, and you'll like it! And don't give me that civilian oversight BS, we can police ourselves thank you very much. What organization, group of people, or profession with enormous power and no oversight has ever gotten themselves into trouble due to lack of oversight?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on February 07, 2016, 04:03:42 pm
Chicago was not an aberration in 1968. Just the most visible. Tulsa in 1968 liked their activist policing. Long hairs and afro's were in a hostile environment.

How low can you go?

A white Chicago police officer who fatally shot a black 19-year-old college student and accidentally killed a woman has filed a lawsuit against the teenager's estate, arguing the shooting was forced by the teen's actions and caused the officer "extreme emotional trauma."
 “After this coward shot a teenager in the back ... he has the temerity to sue him? That’s a new low for the Chicago Police Department,” Foutris said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-robert-rialmo-quintonio-legrier-20160206-story.html

Lawyers for Antonio LeGrier and for Jones argue that evidence shows Rialmo was as far as  20 or 30 feet away when he fired his weapon, according to the AP.
Foutris told the AP that he’s skeptical about the idea that LeGrier would attack police, considering he’s the one who had called them to the residence in the first place.
“If you’re calling multiple times for help, are you going to charge a police officer and try to hit him with a bat?” he said. “That’s ridiculous.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/07/after-killing-college-student-and-55-year-old-mother-cop-sues-for-extreme-emotional-trauma/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 08, 2016, 08:27:44 am
How low can you go?

This has ZERO to do with the topic of this thread. There actually is news on the subject matter of this thread, and you are polluting it with unrelated stuff. Go start a thread called "bad things police do" and just post away...

In actual news...

Turns out the Sheriff's Department may have attempted to influence the investigation into the shooting. (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj6_Kjlr-jKAhUBSiYKHXSDA7IQqQIIMCgAMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tulsaworld.com%2Fhomepagelatest%2Fgrand-jury-transcript-shows-testimony-that-robert-bates-report-went%2Farticle_355f761a-e293-54a8-a746-d3083294aae8.html&usg=AFQjCNGGkoe7QxauV12qz-i0j1K2c2DZwA) Also, they may have a policy of trying to discourage people from getting attorneys because they make the Sheriff's job harder, and in civil suits end up getting more money.  Color me shocked!


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on February 08, 2016, 10:59:39 am

In actual news...

Turns out the Sheriff's Department may have attempted to influence the investigation into the shooting. (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj6_Kjlr-jKAhUBSiYKHXSDA7IQqQIIMCgAMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tulsaworld.com%2Fhomepagelatest%2Fgrand-jury-transcript-shows-testimony-that-robert-bates-report-went%2Farticle_355f761a-e293-54a8-a746-d3083294aae8.html&usg=AFQjCNGGkoe7QxauV12qz-i0j1K2c2DZwA) Also, they may have a policy of trying to discourage people from getting attorneys because they make the Sheriff's job harder, and in civil suits end up getting more money.  Color me shocked!

The depth and thoroughness of this reporting serves as a reminder of why we still need newspapers.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2016, 10:19:03 am
The Frontier has posted a link to 341 pages of grand jury transcript.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2708087/Grand-Jury-Testimony.pdf


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on February 10, 2016, 12:18:19 pm
The Frontier has posted a link to 341 pages of grand jury transcript.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2708087/Grand-Jury-Testimony.pdf


Ugh...dude's full name is "Billy Joe..."


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2016, 01:17:59 pm
Ugh...dude's full name is "Billy Joe..."

Better than Markwayne.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on February 10, 2016, 02:55:30 pm
Better than Markwayne.

I'd have to say they're at about the same "kissing cousins" level


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 02, 2016, 11:48:21 am
It seems the more light we shine on the truth, the darker the scene gets:

http://www.fox23.com/news/new-video-shows-former-tulsa-reserve-deputy-pointing-taser-weeks-before-shooting/192388310


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 04, 2016, 09:53:02 am
It seems the more light we shine on the truth, the darker the scene gets:

http://www.fox23.com/news/new-video-shows-former-tulsa-reserve-deputy-pointing-taser-weeks-before-shooting/192388310

There’s a great three part piece in The Frontier this week which documents Bates’ ineptitude leading up to the shooting of Harris.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 11, 2016, 09:36:24 pm
There’s a great three part piece in The Frontier this week which documents Bates’ ineptitude leading up to the shooting of Harris.

New defense strategy: Blame the victim.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/robert-bates-prosecutors-seek-delay-to-prep-for-defense-that/article_bfb6f9bf-9682-5109-b87e-446b0f0de38d.html





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: davideinstein on April 11, 2016, 09:40:24 pm
New defense strategy: Blame the victim.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/robert-bates-prosecutors-seek-delay-to-prep-for-defense-that/article_bfb6f9bf-9682-5109-b87e-446b0f0de38d.html





Unreal.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 12, 2016, 08:19:38 am
Unreal.

Not really.  Of course the victim’s lifestyle choices will come into play as part of the defense.  He was a former felon on drugs and attempting to illegally sell firearms to undercover cops.  

I think we all know Clark Brewster is a pretty skilled courtroom litigator and he commands a high price.  If you are being paid thousands and thousands by a millionaire who doesn’t want to serve any time, you are going to explore and exploit every avenue possible to at least minimize your client’s role in the death in the minds of jurors.  The defense client here ostensibly has a lot of money to pay for multiple expert witnesses you or I could not afford for our own defense.  

If you are a marquee defense attorney representing a wealthy client, it’s what you do.  If you want to save 15% on car insurance...wait, wrong thread.

Harris was going to die some day anyhow, so who’s to say that wasn’t his day after all since he was on meth and may have had heart disease from years of not living a clean life, right?  ::)

They did say on the KRMG news this morning that the autopsy report shows Harris was apparently not properly intubated by EMS personnel.  I suspect that was probably leaked by someone “close to the case”.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 12, 2016, 08:27:50 am
Too bad the State cut (and keeps cutting) the OSCN budget or we could see what they were talking about. None of the documents filed have been logged or scanned since 4/6/16:

http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&number=CF-2015-1817&cmid=2827287
- - -

I don't practice criminal law. But this case is obviously interesting and Brewster is obviously a talented attorney, so it is worth following. Here's my half a cent (only worth half a cent because I don't do criminal law! Someone correct my ignorance):

On the defense itself:

Obviously causing the death of a human is an element of the crime. There is scant little else to defend this action other than attacking the elements themselves. Bates has essentially admitted negligence (I meant to grab the taser and messed up, sorry). And there is a dead guy.  So the only thing TO attack is that the negligence caused the death (causation). That or go for jury nullification (which I think what the "stress of being an officer" defense is meant to do).

The argument Brewster is going for seems to be that the guy had a drug problem, a heart problem, and the EMTs messed up the intubation. A healthy person with good EMTs would not have died. Two defenses in one really: 1) the victim would not have died but for the fact he was unhealthy, and 2) the victim would not have died but for bad EMTs. My guess is both fail, but Brester is doing his damnedest. Just seems there isn't much to work with.

The general view in such cases is that the medical care cannot be a defense unless the original act would not have caused death. While the medical care may have failed to prevent the death of the victim, it did not cause it. To wit:

Quote
One who has inflicted an injury which is dangerous, that is, calculated to destroy or endanger life, is not relieved of responsibility by the fact that the immediate or a contributing cause of the death was erroneous or unskillful medical treatment or care of the injury by deceased, or by a physician, or by nurses or other attendants. Thus, it is not a defense that the victim died during or as the immediate result of a surgical operation rendered necessary by the existence of the wound, or that there was a possible mode of treatment which might have averted death, or that deceased might have recovered if he had submitted to an operation, or had adopted a different diet.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=649+P.2d+807

While I don't have time to research the "a healthy person would not have died from a 357 gunshot wound to the back" defense, the general rule is that you take your victim as you find them. The charged crime is not an "intent" crime (and even then intent can be imputed. If you intended to punch me in the head but didn't intend for me to fall down, break my neck and die... it is still murder). So all that really matters is that the negligence led to the death.  That the victim was unhealthy is largely irrelevant to that question... otherwise it's open season on Okies because most of us are fat, out of shape, heart problem, pill addicted, drinking or smoking unhealthy people (USA! USA! USA!).

I'm happy to be corrected, but it seems to me that unless they can prove that the victim happened to die from something wholly unrelated to the .357" hole through his chest and that the gunshot was a mere coincidence, I don't think the defense holds water. "She was really old, yes it appears she was raped to death - but a 20 year old raped in a similar fashion would not have died from a heart attack." Seems about the same as "He was really unhealthy, yes it appears he was killed by a 357 shot to the back - but a healthy man shot in a similar fashion would not have died from a heart attack."

Happy to see case law to the contrary. Was hoping to read the Defense and prosecution briefs.


Delay:

Brewster document dumped 2,600 pages and apparently introduced new experts in the last week or ten days... then tells the cameras that he is shocked that the prosecution wants a delay and that justice demands that the trial go forward! Just so much bluster.  According to the article, the prosecution doesn't even have the experts' conclusions. but, Brewster's job is to get an advantage for his client and he almost always seems to do that.

Apparently the experts were listed, but not the substance of their testimony. In a civil trial, their testimony would be excluded. Criminal defendants have more rights, but you generally can't just spring new things. Trials are theater, not "shock and awe" with surprises around every corner.  I'm thinking the document dump is enough to grant a delay and Brewster will be required to provide the conclusions of the experts he has hired. Just a guess, I try not to do any criminal work.
- - -

The entire case boils down to this jury instruction:

OUJI-CR 4-103

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE - ELEMENTS

No person may be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, the death of a human;

Second, the death was unlawful;

Third, the death was caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant(s).


OUJI-CR 4-104

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE -

CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE DEFINED

The term "culpable negligence" refers to the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 12, 2016, 09:22:16 am

They did say on the KRMG news this morning that the autopsy report shows Harris was apparently not properly intubated by EMS personnel.  I suspect that was probably leaked by someone “close to the case”.


Payback for EMSA not going along with the official version that said Harris "confessed to being on PCP" at a time when paramedics said he was unconscious?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 12, 2016, 10:48:08 am
Too bad the State cut (and keeps cutting) the OSCN budget or we could see what they were talking about. None of the documents filed have been logged or scanned since 4/6/16:

http://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=tulsa&number=CF-2015-1817&cmid=2827287
- - -

I don't practice criminal law. But this case is obviously interesting and Brewster is obviously a talented attorney, so it is worth following. Here's my half a cent (only worth half a cent because I don't do criminal law! Someone correct my ignorance):

On the defense itself:

Obviously causing the death of a human is an element of the crime. There is scant little else to defend this action other than attacking the elements themselves. Bates has essentially admitted negligence (I meant to grab the taser and messed up, sorry). And there is a dead guy.  So the only thing TO attack is that the negligence caused the death (causation). That or go for jury nullification (which I think what the "stress of being an officer" defense is meant to do).

The argument Brewster is going for seems to be that the guy had a drug problem, a heart problem, and the EMTs messed up the intubation. A healthy person with good EMTs would not have died. Two defenses in one really: 1) the victim would not have died but for the fact he was unhealthy, and 2) the victim would not have died but for bad EMTs. My guess is both fail, but Brester is doing his damnedest. Just seems there isn't much to work with.

The general view in such cases is that the medical care cannot be a defense unless the original act would not have caused death. While the medical care may have failed to prevent the death of the victim, it did not cause it. To wit:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=649+P.2d+807

While I don't have time to research the "a healthy person would not have died from a 357 gunshot wound to the back" defense, the general rule is that you take your victim as you find them. The charged crime is not an "intent" crime (and even then intent can be imputed. If you intended to punch me in the head but didn't intend for me to fall down, break my neck and die... it is still murder). So all that really matters is that the negligence led to the death.  That the victim was unhealthy is largely irrelevant to that question... otherwise it's open season on Okies because most of us are fat, out of shape, heart problem, pill addicted, drinking or smoking unhealthy people (USA! USA! USA!).

I'm happy to be corrected, but it seems to me that unless they can prove that the victim happened to die from something wholly unrelated to the .357" hole through his chest and that the gunshot was a mere coincidence, I don't think the defense holds water. "She was really old, yes it appears she was raped to death - but a 20 year old raped in a similar fashion would not have died from a heart attack." Seems about the same as "He was really unhealthy, yes it appears he was killed by a 357 shot to the back - but a healthy man shot in a similar fashion would not have died from a heart attack."

Happy to see case law to the contrary. Was hoping to read the Defense and prosecution briefs.


Delay:

Brewster document dumped 2,600 pages and apparently introduced new experts in the last week or ten days... then tells the cameras that he is shocked that the prosecution wants a delay and that justice demands that the trial go forward! Just so much bluster.  According to the article, the prosecution doesn't even have the experts' conclusions. but, Brewster's job is to get an advantage for his client and he almost always seems to do that.

Apparently the experts were listed, but not the substance of their testimony. In a civil trial, their testimony would be excluded. Criminal defendants have more rights, but you generally can't just spring new things. Trials are theater, not "shock and awe" with surprises around every corner.  I'm thinking the document dump is enough to grant a delay and Brewster will be required to provide the conclusions of the experts he has hired. Just a guess, I try not to do any criminal work.
- - -

The entire case boils down to this jury instruction:

OUJI-CR 4-103

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE - ELEMENTS

No person may be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, the death of a human;

Second, the death was unlawful;

Third, the death was caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant(s).


OUJI-CR 4-104

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE -

CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE DEFINED

The term "culpable negligence" refers to the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions.

Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that Bates would choose to fight rather than a plea deal:

Quote
§21-722. Manslaughter in the second degree a felony - Penalty.

Universal Citation: 21 OK Stat § 21-722 (2014)
Any person guilty of manslaughter in the second degree shall be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary not more than four (4) years and not less than two (2) years, or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or both fine and imprisonment.

R.L. 1910, § 2331. Amended by Laws 1997, c. 133, § 236, eff. July 1, 1999; Laws 1999, 1st Ex.Sess., c. 5, § 140, eff. July 1, 1999.

NOTE: Laws 1998, 1st Ex.Sess., c. 2, § 23 amended the effective date of Laws 1997, c. 133, § 236 from July 1, 1998, to July 1, 1999.


With no priors, isn’t there a chance he could have gotten a suspended sentence?  I can understand the idea of not wanting to spend time locked up, if a plea deal was only offered with time behind bars I get fighting it, but seems like it might have been in everyone’s best interest for a 2nd degree manslaughter to plea and walk away with some stipulations.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 12, 2016, 01:14:28 pm
I agree Conan. The guy isn't a danger to society as long as you take away his badge. Second Degree Manslaughter often resolves without time spent "in."

The DA might feel some pressure to get some jail time. Also, Bates might want a conviction that doesn't interfere with his right to carry. Sometimes there are other things on the line - a conviction or guilty plea other than a suspended (it never happened) could result in retirement consequences, travel restrictions to some countries (condo in the Bahamas?), or whatever else I can't think of. I had a friend plead no contest to a DUI to get it down to a misdemeanor with a fine and community service, but was still excluded from Canada for 5 years.

So its hard to tell.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 12, 2016, 01:18:42 pm
Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that Bates would choose to fight rather than a plea deal:

With no priors, isn’t there a chance he could have gotten a suspended sentence?  I can understand the idea of not wanting to spend time locked up, if a plea deal was only offered with time behind bars I get fighting it, but seems like it might have been in everyone’s best interest for a 2nd degree manslaughter to plea and walk away with some stipulations.



A late friend of mine got popped growing pot in his dorm closet at TU back in the late 80s. He was guilty and had no reasonable defense but his dad was a big local bankruptcy lawyer and his grandfather a big local developer. When he went to trial his grandfather happened to be poker buddies with the judge and just happened to lose something like 20k one night to said judge. The judge shockingly and against all odds tossed the case on some ridiculous technically and my buddy walked. Despite being very, very guilty.

Bates couldn’t possibly have any connections like that at the courthouse could he?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 12, 2016, 02:51:40 pm
I agree Conan. The guy isn't a danger to society as long as you take away his badge. Second Degree Manslaughter often resolves without time spent "in."

The DA might feel some pressure to get some jail time. Also, Bates might want a conviction that doesn't interfere with his right to carry. Sometimes there are other things on the line - a conviction or guilty plea other than a suspended (it never happened) could result in retirement consequences, travel restrictions to some countries (condo in the Bahamas?), or whatever else I can't think of. I had a friend plead no contest to a DUI to get it down to a misdemeanor with a fine and community service, but was still excluded from Canada for 5 years.

So its hard to tell.

Wait...

You just answered my question and I should have known this because my wife is an insurance agent.

You get a felony and there goes your insurance license.  And yes, he’s still in the insurance business as a principal in a brokerage.


Bates couldn’t possibly have any connections like that at the courthouse could he?


This case is so closely watched, I doubt he’s going to end up with any favors not afforded other wealthy defendants who can afford Brewster.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 12, 2016, 06:50:12 pm
Not really.  Of course the victim’s lifestyle choices will come into play as part of the defense.  He was a former felon on drugs and attempting to illegally sell firearms to undercover cops.  

I think we all know Clark Brewster is a pretty skilled courtroom litigator and he commands a high price.  If you are being paid thousands and thousands by a millionaire who doesn’t want to serve any time, you are going to explore and exploit every avenue possible to at least minimize your client’s role in the death in the minds of jurors.  The defense client here ostensibly has a lot of money to pay for multiple expert witnesses you or I could not afford for our own defense.  

If you are a marquee defense attorney representing a wealthy client, it’s what you do.  If you want to save 15% on car insurance...wait, wrong thread.

Harris was going to die some day anyhow, so who’s to say that wasn’t his day after all since he was on meth and may have had heart disease from years of not living a clean life, right?  ::)

They did say on the KRMG news this morning that the autopsy report shows Harris was apparently not properly intubated by EMS personnel.  I suspect that was probably leaked by someone “close to the case”.




A propensity to bleed out from bullet holes is not a "pre-existing medical condition"

Just out:  "Why Eric Harris Deserved To Die" by Clark Brewster. 232 pages, bound volume.  Free shipping by Amazon if ordered by April 1.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 13, 2016, 08:59:53 am

The argument Brewster is going for seems to be that the guy had a drug problem, a heart problem, and the EMTs messed up the intubation. A healthy person with good EMTs would not have died. Two defenses in one really: 1) the victim would not have died but for the fact he was unhealthy, and 2) the victim would not have died but for bad EMTs. My guess is both fail, but Brester is doing his damnedest. Just seems there isn't much to work with.

While I don't have time to research the "a healthy person would not have died from a 357 gunshot wound to the back" defense, the general rule is that you take your victim as you find them. The charged crime is not an "intent" crime (and even then intent can be imputed. If you intended to punch me in the head but didn't intend for me to fall down, break my neck and die... it is still murder). So all that really matters is that the negligence led to the death.  That the victim was unhealthy is largely irrelevant to that question... otherwise it's open season on Okies because most of us are fat, out of shape, heart problem, pill addicted, drinking or smoking unhealthy people (USA! USA! USA!).



His best bet is to get the case assigned to Judge Kurt Glassco....he seems to be connected well enough to do that....then go for no jury trial, and just let Tim Harris' DA office work it out amongst themselves... problem solved.  Another rich guy gets to skate.

Like Mark Allen Eaton with Glassco, Harris' office, and the good ole boy network, when Eaton tried to kill a couple of teenagers....

Kinda makes one wonder what the Chief Judge of Probate Division is doing presiding over criminal attempted homicide cases...??  Oh, yeah...I forgot... Connected!




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 13, 2016, 09:12:14 am
First, I was wrong on the delay. It was denied.

Second, getting a case reassigned is not an easy matter unless there is a conflict or something obvious. Only a few things can be assigned on a whim (only political challenges come to mind) and judges HATE it when you pull that card. I have not seen evidence in my practice of anyone pulling strings to get a certain judge, but I could be naive.

Third, I have found Glassco to operate with integrity, along with the rest of the judges I have had contact with in Tulsa County. I may not always agree with their rulings and sometimes I flat out think they are wrong. But I have never questioned their integrity concerning rulings I have been involved with. Such accusations should be made lightly as our system largely functions on the trust that the system functions. Imperfect as it may be, it is the best system ever devised.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 13, 2016, 09:27:10 am


A propensity to bleed out from bullet holes is not a "pre-existing medical condition"

Just out:  "Why Eric Harris Deserved To Die" by Clark Brewster. 232 pages, bound volume.  Free shipping by Amazon if ordered by April 1.



If he bled out, that sort of puts the kabosh on the whole heart disease theory or hardening of the arteries, eh?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 13, 2016, 09:30:12 am
First, I was wrong on the delay. It was denied.

Second, getting a case reassigned is not an easy matter unless there is a conflict or something obvious. Only a few things can be assigned on a whim (only political challenges come to mind) and judges HATE it when you pull that card. I have not seen evidence in my practice of anyone pulling strings to get a certain judge, but I could be naive.

Third, I have found Glassco to operate with integrity, along with the rest of the judges I have had contact with in Tulsa County. I may not always agree with their rulings and sometimes I flat out think they are wrong. But I have never questioned their integrity concerning rulings I have been involved with. Such accusations should be made lightly as our system largely functions on the trust that the system functions. Imperfect as it may be, it is the best system ever devised.


I agree with you mostly - actually, the vast majority of the time.  And we have as good a system as we are likely to ever get.  


I guess I am just overly suspicious when a guy stands in front of a judge (Glassco) and pleads guilty to trying to kill the kids of some people I know.   And then is told, no, we don't accept that - back it up, you have to just be on probation for a while, since you were drunk and all....  But since it was a white guy, who appears to be well connected in the city functionary structure, I guess it's ok then...   Good thing he wasn't black, or worse yet, Muslim!!   (The case has been referenced previously.)

Maybe I am just overly sensitive, too...



As for judges in general - the only other two I have had direct personal contact with (in the deep dark past) have been exceptional people - we seem to be pretty lucky here for the most part.  Bob Perugino and Pete Messler.  Great guys both on the bench and out in the real world!







Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 16, 2016, 06:16:12 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/slips-and-capture-could-be-key-to-robert-bates-defense/article_aacdd5e2-f85a-5d6b-9a61-3b3cf39bc965.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ed W on April 17, 2016, 08:57:46 am
So if you were standing on the edge of a cliff, and it was determined later that you had traces of drugs in your system as well as heart disease, and I pushed you off the cliff, would any reasonable person agree that the heart disease and drugs were the cause of death?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 17, 2016, 09:52:44 am
So if you were standing on the edge of a cliff, and it was determined later that you had traces of drugs in your system as well as heart disease, and I pushed you off the cliff, would any reasonable person agree that the heart disease and drugs were the cause of death?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trial-begins-reserve-fatally-shot-unarmed-man-38463943

It all sounds so innocent until you get to the "F*@k your breath!" establishment of their mindset.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 18, 2016, 06:37:52 pm
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trial-begins-reserve-fatally-shot-unarmed-man-38463943

It all sounds so innocent until you get to the "F*@k your breath!" establishment of their mindset.



The judge denied the motion to censor that from the shooting video the jury will see.  Maybe the question will be answered as to why Bates pulled the trigger on whatever he thought he had in his hand in the first place.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 20, 2016, 09:38:23 am
So if you were standing on the edge of a cliff, and it was determined later that you had traces of drugs in your system as well as heart disease, and I pushed you off the cliff, would any reasonable person agree that the heart disease and drugs were the cause of death?



The Daily Beast mentions the Bates trial as a sidebar to another civil suit coming up.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/19/cops-taunted-black-veteran-as-he-died.html

Elliott Williams spent the last five days of his life in a Tulsa County jail, paralyzed and lying on the cold concrete floor. But despite the 37-year-old Oklahoma man’s pleas for help, guards did nothing to save him, a lawsuit claims.
... his only alleged crime was misdemeanor obstruction.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on April 21, 2016, 10:25:47 am
Some conspiracy theories on the net about not allowing certain people into the Courtroom. I don't know the specifics, but in general potential witnesses aren't allowed in the Courtroom before they testify (to make sure their testimony isn't influenced by other witnesses). Also - in a media storm the judge needs to keep some level of control but victim family members are usually exempt from such measures (unless they are witnesses, then perhaps not). I suspect the two things together rationally explain the exclusions.

Andre Harris and the vast majority of news outlets were left without representation inside the courtroom for about 45 minutes of Deputy Lance Ramsey’s testimony. Sheriff’s Office deputies denied a Tulsa World reporter access despite the fact that jurors and observers in the gallery were still standing in the courtroom, indicating that no witness was on the stand testifying.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/courtroom-rules-leave-media-harris-brother-shut-out-of-some/article_16b50962-11a8-5104-94ee-f70ae40ff0ee.html


Bates’ attorney Clark Brewster asked Musseman to invoke the rule of sequestration — typically granted to prevent testimony from tainting a later witness’ statements — as he said he plans to call Andre Harris to testify regarding involvement in his brother’s alleged criminal acts.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/robert-bates-jury-to-see-unedited-video-with-f-/article_8b57208b-b7df-5deb-9f9c-178389cc4fc2.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 23, 2016, 07:25:35 pm

Roberts said he then saw Huckeby take the gun that Bates had used in the shooting and give Bates another gun to holster on the scene.
Sgt. Dave Kerpon testified that Huckeby gave him the firearm — which he was told was the weapon that fired the shot — and Kerpon put it in the trunk of his vehicle that he was using to transport Bates back to the office.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 24, 2016, 05:51:59 pm

Ramsey said in the hundreds of operations, he has had many go bad, but never this bad - he's never had someone accidentally shot.

Hogwash.  Accidental shootings by police happen more often than they admit...its preferable to make up a story than to look incompetent.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 27, 2016, 11:38:41 am
Bates Case Will Go To Jury This Afternoon

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/bates-case-will-go-jury-afternoon (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/bates-case-will-go-jury-afternoon)

Quote
The second-degree manslaughter trial of a former Oklahoma volunteer deputy charged with killing an unarmed man is set for closing arguments and jury deliberations.

Prosecutors and the defense wrapped up their cases Tuesday in the trial of Robert Bates, who has pleaded not guilty to the charges in the April 2015 death of Eric Harris.

A trauma doctor testified for the defense that Harris died of a heart attack, not as a result blood loss or a collapsed lung due to the gunshot. Prosecutors responded with a doctor who Harris lost too much blood from the gunshot to survive.

The trial is to go to the jury Wednesday following closing arguments.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 27, 2016, 11:57:34 am
Defense sounds really weak to me. Analogous to me saying my brother didn't die of a brain bleed. It was the combination of his lovely date and the  Mexican food that preceded it.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on April 27, 2016, 12:04:56 pm
"Excusable homicide"...well alrighty then


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2016, 01:13:02 pm
It's already been several hours since deliberation started.  That would not seem to be good for the prosecution.  Open/Shut case....should need about 20 minutes, and that mostly to elect foreman and take the first vote.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 27, 2016, 01:37:02 pm
Seems like we should have a verdict today. Questions for the jury:

1) Who is the foreman
2) Did the shot kill Eric Harris - if no, not guilty
3) Was it culpable negligence to mistake the .357 magnum for a taser - if no, not guilty
4) What's the sentence

I remain unconvinced by the Defense. By my opinion doesn't matter.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ibanez on April 27, 2016, 01:51:55 pm
To be fair this is Tulsa so someone is probably having to explain to the jurors why the Sheriff's deputy wasn't named Enos, why the person shot wasn't a Duke boy, and that they can't order in food for the jury room from The Boar's Nest.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on April 27, 2016, 05:05:00 pm
Just in...After 3 hours of deliberation, the all-white jury returned with a guilty verdict against Bob Bates...and recommended 4 years in prison.  They could have made a lesser recommendation...


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 28, 2016, 07:30:34 am
I'm not surprised by the Guilty verdict, but the 4 year recommendation is the max. That surprises me. Usually indicates that the jury was pissed off.

I wonder if Bate and Brewster were a self reinforcing loop of hyperbole and machismo. Instead of painting him as a sympathetic figure who messed up, they tried to paint him as a hero who did nothing wrong at all. From Brewster's perspective, maybe Bates just doesn't make a good sympathetic figure. All Monday morning quarterbacking at this point, but I'd have to think if you just walked up to 12 people and gave them the basics --- it usually wouldn't come back at the max sentence. Then again, Brewster tends to know what he is doing.

It will be interesting to see if any jurors choose to give interviews.

I'd also love to know what offer was made to Bates before the trial. Maybe the offer was such that he felt he may as well go to trial.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 28, 2016, 07:51:51 am
I'm not surprised by the Guilty verdict, but the 4 year recommendation is the max. That surprises me. Usually indicates that the jury was pissed off.

I wonder if Bate and Brewster were a self reinforcing loop of hyperbole and machismo. Instead of painting him as a sympathetic figure who messed up, they tried to paint him as a hero who did nothing wrong at all. From Brewster's perspective, maybe Bates just doesn't make a good sympathetic figure. All Monday morning quarterbacking at this point, but I'd have to think if you just walked up to 12 people and gave them the basics --- it usually wouldn't come back at the max sentence. Then again, Brewster tends to know what he is doing.

It will be interesting to see if any jurors choose to give interviews.

I'd also love to know what offer was made to Bates before the trial. Maybe the offer was such that he felt he may as well go to trial.

Pretty good analysis, CF.

I’m guessing trying to convince a jury that the gunshot had nothing to do with Harris’ death might have pissed off a few people.  I’d also go so far as Bates’ sense of entitlement pissed them off as well, that is likely the main reason Brewster didn’t want him to testify.

The jury recommendation is just that: a recommendation.  I honestly thought he’d end up with the max fine and a suspended sentence so let’s see what happens in the sentencing phase.  Something tells me they will fabricate a health issue Bates’ health will come up in the sentencing hearing.

Two things are for certain:  If Brewster is unsuccessful with an appeal, Bates can never legally carry a firearm again and he will lose his insurance license.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ed W on April 28, 2016, 08:28:45 am
Is the usual process serving a third of the sentence befoe being eligible for parole? That could be a very long 16 months for a pretend policeman in the general population. I'd expect he'd be segregated for his protection.

I'm astonished at some of the pro-Bates comments on FB, as in "he was serving the community" etc. Some people have no moral compass.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: AquaMan on April 28, 2016, 10:57:14 am
Yes, I heard one of those remarks this morning, "the guy shouldn't have run!" I explained to him that running isn't a capital felony and he wasn't running when he was shot. He was restrained on his belly with a knee to his neck. Didn't need to be tasered.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: DTowner on April 28, 2016, 11:00:00 am
It’s hard to know for sure without having heard all the testimony, as opposed to just reading about it in the paper,  But I suspect the coroner and Bates’ expert witness (who concluded Harris died of a heart attack, meth and exertion from running from the officers) canceled each other out.  The ER doc testifying that Harris had no blood in his heart when he arrived at the ER is pretty hard to overcome because this is the person who is trying to save the guy’s life and could not.  If you try to convince a jury that a gunshot to the chest did not kill someone, you’d better have some pretty clear evidence that is the case.  Otherwise, there is a good chance you will insult the intelligence of the jurors.  I think that is likely what happened here.  Of course, challenging the cause of death and hoping to create some doubt was probably the best defense he could put on.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 28, 2016, 11:24:44 am
I have a question that's been bothering me lately.

What exactly was Eric Harris' crime here? He was selling a gun. What was criminal about that?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 28, 2016, 12:27:29 pm
I have a question that's been bothering me lately.

What exactly was Eric Harris' crime here? He was selling a gun. What was criminal about that?



One point was after previous felony - he isn't legally allowed to touch one.




Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 28, 2016, 12:59:37 pm

One point was after previous felony - he isn't legally allowed to touch one.


Being in possession of a firearm while under the influence of meth would be another criminal act.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: swake on April 28, 2016, 01:13:32 pm
Being in possession of a firearm while under the influence of meth would be another criminal act.

True, but we are running sting operations on that?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 28, 2016, 04:24:17 pm
True, but we are running sting operations on that?


Was supposed to be a sting on sale of illegal - presumably stolen? - guns.

Yeah, he was a punk who deserved prison time.  Not a capital crime though.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on April 28, 2016, 08:03:12 pm

Was supposed to be a sting on sale of illegal - presumably stolen? - guns.

Yeah, he was a punk who deserved prison time.  Not a capital crime though.


It’s unfortunate there are people who really think an injustice was served with Bates’ conviction.  One comment from the open mic on KRMG said he did us a favor because Harris was a convicted felon in commission of another felony so Bates did society a favor.

How much more redneck could someone be?

Mentalities like this and the overwhelming stupidity of the Oklahoma legislature make it less and less likely I’ll spend my retirement years here.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cynical on April 28, 2016, 10:42:45 pm
If even one single juror had felt that way, there would have been no conviction.  How did it happen that all twelve jurors agreed?

Evidence.

We sometimes allow ourselves to get too caught up in the political context of criminal cases, and we attach too much importance to lawyering. In my experience, jurors take their job seriously and want facts and law. Whatever their sympathies may be, if the facts aren't there, they simply won't convict. If the facts are there, they will convict. They typically aren't snowed by fancy dancing by lawyers, even lawyers as good as Brewster. Brewster's reputation and track record was built on facts on his side and factual gaps on the other side. In cases where the facts didn't support his argument, he loses. I think Brewster gave it a good try, but he probably knew that he had a bad case on his hands. I won't criticize him for appealing to traditional views of law enforcement's role in protecting citizens from criminals. it was a good argument, but ineffective in view of the evidence in this case.

The key to the case was when the prosecutor appealed to the jurors' common sense. That is a standard argument, but was well-timed in this case. in essence, he invoked the jurors' BS filters. What is the only version of the facts that makes any sense? Set all ideologies aside. What happened, and why? Bates killed someone who was "no angel," but didn't need or deserve to die. The jury understood that. That gives me hope. Not everything is political. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Too many ideologues lack BS filters. The media used to help maintain BS filters. No more. In this post-modern era, truth depends on your perspective.

It’s unfortunate there are people who really think an injustice was served with Bates’ conviction.  One comment from the open mic on KRMG said he did us a favor because Harris was a convicted felon in commission of another felony so Bates did society a favor.

How much more redneck could someone be?

Mentalities like this and the overwhelming stupidity of the Oklahoma legislature make it less and less likely I’ll spend my retirement years here.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 29, 2016, 10:05:50 am
It’s unfortunate there are people who really think an injustice was served with Bates’ conviction.  One comment from the open mic on KRMG said he did us a favor because Harris was a convicted felon in commission of another felony so Bates did society a favor.

How much more redneck could someone be?

Mentalities like this and the overwhelming stupidity of the Oklahoma legislature make it less and less likely I’ll spend my retirement years here.



KRMG caters to the lowest common denominator and then dummies them down to the Murdochian World View.


Have started looking at other states.  Geez, I just know I ain't gonna fit in Oregon or Washington.  Where is there in this country for an extreme moderate to go??


The little bits and pieces I hear about New Hampshire make it sound interesting...and it is a beautiful state!  Consider the irony of the people in their prisons making the license tags with the state motto.  "Live Free or Die"





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 29, 2016, 10:29:28 am
It’s unfortunate there are people who really think an injustice was served with Bates’ conviction.  One comment from the open mic on KRMG said he did us a favor because Harris was a convicted felon in commission of another felony so Bates did society a favor.

How much more redneck could someone be?

Mentalities like this and the overwhelming stupidity of the Oklahoma legislature make it less and less likely I’ll spend my retirement years here.


Just listening to the religious zealots callers and commenters about the removal of the 10 Commandments on KOTV's call in comments.

http://www.newson6.com/category/121535/video-page?autostart=true&clipId=11644858 (http://www.newson6.com/category/121535/video-page?autostart=true&clipId=11644858)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on April 29, 2016, 07:36:02 pm
I won't criticize him for appealing to traditional views of law enforcement's role in protecting citizens from criminals. it was a good argument, but ineffective in view of the evidence in this case.


Even the staunchest crummegons are waking up to the fact that police now arent what they were 20 years ago.

As for KRMG, they used to be a good news station, but they have fallen so low in ethics, grammar, etc.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 02, 2016, 07:51:05 am

Even the staunchest crummegons are waking up to the fact that police now arent what they were 20 years ago.

As for KRMG, they used to be a good news station, but they have fallen so low in ethics, grammar, etc.



They never were a very good news station - they had good weather coverage during storms...still do.  They were just all we had.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 02, 2016, 09:40:25 pm
Bates gets two mugshots while Glanz gets none?


(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/552d4c2fecad04722923faae-506-253/ex-reserve-deputy-bates-bought-his-way-into-tulsa-county-sheriffs-office-before-fatal-shooting.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/31/8319e219-23de-5a78-bfbd-3ad4d774c35f/5727752573eb8.image.jpg)



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 03, 2016, 07:02:19 am
Bates gets two mugshots while Glanz gets none?

That appears to be accurate. He also still gets special access to the Courthouse and special parking for his criminal hearings.

Quote
But Lewis says that perhaps the most egregious example of special consideration is that Glanz never went through the booking process and had his mugshot taken once he was criminally charged.

“That was something the citizens needed to see, that the people in power go through the same process,” Lewis said, adding that someone in a position of authority such as Glanz should be treated in the same manner as any other citizen.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/stanley-glanz-s-private-courthouse-access-raises-more-questions-about/article_899d0d70-f21e-5b93-872d-eb763095fe8c.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on May 03, 2016, 10:22:25 am
Bates gets two mugshots while Glanz gets none?


(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/552d4c2fecad04722923faae-506-253/ex-reserve-deputy-bates-bought-his-way-into-tulsa-county-sheriffs-office-before-fatal-shooting.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/31/8319e219-23de-5a78-bfbd-3ad4d774c35f/5727752573eb8.image.jpg)



Second shot looks like a DUI booking.  He must’ve been smashed.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 04, 2016, 07:05:33 am
Just gonna leave this here:

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/bates-testifies-to-harsh-jail-conditions-during-bail-hearing/


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2016, 09:29:29 am
Just gonna leave this here:

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/bates-testifies-to-harsh-jail-conditions-during-bail-hearing/


Insert 30 second clip of baby crying....


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 04, 2016, 09:58:13 am
Just gonna leave this here:

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/bates-testifies-to-harsh-jail-conditions-during-bail-hearing/


I thought it very big of We The People to publicly sympathize with Moss Jail's mismanagement of Bates (withholding medical treatment, keeping him naked in the cell, etc.)

http://www.newson6.com/story/31877054/bob-bates-in-court-asking-to-be-released-on-bond


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on May 04, 2016, 10:28:26 am
Just gonna leave this here:

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/bates-testifies-to-harsh-jail-conditions-during-bail-hearing/

Random thoughts:

-I had figured Bates would arrive in the courtroom in a wheelchair with drool streaming down his chin.  The slow shuffle and mussed hair was a nice touch for the cameras though.
-Jail cots don’t come from the DoubleTree, sorry Bob that’s the breaks when you become a convicted felon.
-Sounds like Bates is definitely persona non grata amongst the deputies who are actually paid for a living to watch over someone who foobared up the entire TCSD living out his Walter Mitty fantasy to be a cop.
-Brewster sounded a bit unhinged.  Love the part where he’s complaining about poor jail conditions, yet he’s defended the TCSD against allegations like this before. 



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 04, 2016, 10:59:42 am
Just gonna leave this here:

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/bates-testifies-to-harsh-jail-conditions-during-bail-hearing/

(http://www.cliparts101.com/files/737/9D772A04F84704498D191C1B0065DBFA/Cricket.png)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on May 04, 2016, 04:47:45 pm
 :'(

www.sadtrombone.com


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 06, 2016, 06:48:49 pm
Random thoughts:

-I had figured Bates would arrive in the courtroom in a wheelchair with drool streaming down his chin.  The slow shuffle and mussed hair was a nice touch for the cameras though.
-Jail cots don’t come from the DoubleTree, sorry Bob that’s the breaks when you become a convicted felon.
-Sounds like Bates is definitely persona non grata amongst the deputies who are actually paid for a living to watch over someone who foobared up the entire TCSD living out his Walter Mitty fantasy to be a cop.
-Brewster sounded a bit unhinged.  Love the part where he’s complaining about poor jail conditions, yet he’s defended the TCSD against allegations like this before. 

Its not like the Tulsa county jail is someplace they laugh at you as you die naked on the floor.



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 06, 2016, 10:16:43 pm

Bates gets two mugshots while Glanz gets none?



Well they do seem rather adamant everyone gets a picture taken.

(http://iic.tulsacounty.org/Mugshots/1209394_20160505044_f.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on May 09, 2016, 07:56:45 am

Well they do seem rather adamant everyone gets a picture taken.

(http://iic.tulsacounty.org/Mugshots/1209394_20160505044_f.jpg)

How much do copies of the souvenir shots cost?  I hope they aren’t as high as a Carnival Cruise welcome pic.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on May 09, 2016, 09:15:38 am
How much do copies of the souvenir shots cost?  I hope they aren’t as high as a Carnival Cruise welcome pic.

Better not be allergic to latex.  ;)


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 31, 2016, 06:29:05 pm

-Brewster sounded a bit unhinged.  Love the part where he’s complaining about poor jail conditions, yet he’s defended the TCSD against allegations like this before. 




As screwed up as Moss Jail might be, it s still not Chicago:

"We know somebody who can get your fingerprints," the lawsuit alleged one of the officers told King.
Officer Evans then pressed his fist into King's face, threatening to push her nose into her brain, the suit alleged.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-glenn-evans-discipline-met-20160526-story.html



Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Townsend on June 01, 2016, 11:58:49 am
As screwed up as Moss Jail might be, it s still not Chicago:

"We know somebody who can get your fingerprints," the lawsuit alleged one of the officers told King.
Officer Evans then pressed his fist into King's face, threatening to push her nose into her brain, the suit alleged.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-glenn-evans-discipline-met-20160526-story.html

Well...Okay...Did Eric Harris or Bates do some time in Chicago?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 01, 2016, 12:38:00 pm
In case anyone missed it: Bates was sentenced to the jury recommended 4 years after an hours long sentencing hearing.

There will be an appeal, of course, but I haven't heard of anything that sounds like significant enough error to overturn the jury conviction or the sentence.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on June 01, 2016, 12:40:25 pm
In case anyone missed it: Bates was sentenced to the jury recommended 4 years after an hours long sentencing hearing.

There will be an appeal, of course, but I haven't heard of anything that sounds like significant enough error to overturn the jury conviction or the sentence.

Then of course his wife or daughter or whomever it was tried placing the blame of 'he'll die in jail' on the media.  Real class act there.

Harris was obviously no saint but whatever.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2016, 01:39:34 pm
Then of course his wife or daughter or whomever it was tried placing the blame of 'he'll die in jail' on the media.  Real class act there.

Harris was obviously no saint but whatever.

You want to grab the wife and say: “He’s going to die in jail because he was too addled to know if he had a taser or gun in his hand and someone else died as a result.”  It’s not like it was treated as first degree murder and he got an LWOP or death sentence.

So, his doctor, attorney, and family don’t want him to spend time in jail because of severe arthritis and a heart condition.  Why those conditions never a consideration when he was going out on drug and weapon stings?

Brewster has indicated his appeal will be predicated on other 2nd degree manslaughter convictions he’s researched not ending up with incarceration.  This is nothing but pure hubris.  I’m sure Brewster convinced Bates that he could dirty up the vic enough there would not be a conviction and if it were it would be a suspended sentence.  They were stupid not to seek a plea deal, Bates would lose the ability to carry a firearm or sell insurance ever again, but he might not have ended up in prison for four years and could come and go to the Bahamas as he pleased. 


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 01, 2016, 04:37:19 pm
You want to grab the wife and say: “He’s going to die in jail because he was too addled to know if he had a taser or gun in his hand and someone else died as a result.”  It’s not like it was treated as first degree murder and he got an LWOP or death sentence.

So, his doctor, attorney, and family don’t want him to spend time in jail because of severe arthritis and a heart condition.  Why those conditions never a consideration when he was going out on drug and weapon stings?

Brewster has indicated his appeal will be predicated on other 2nd degree manslaughter convictions he’s researched not ending up with incarceration.  This is nothing but pure hubris.  I’m sure Brewster convinced Bates that he could dirty up the vic enough there would not be a conviction and if it were it would be a suspended sentence.  They were stupid not to seek a plea deal, Bates would lose the ability to carry a firearm or sell insurance ever again, but he might not have ended up in prison for four years and could come and go to the Bahamas as he pleased. 
 

How many thousands of people before Bates wished they had a platform to expose that corrupt hellhole?


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Hoss on June 01, 2016, 07:53:09 pm
You want to grab the wife and say: “He’s going to die in jail because he was too addled to know if he had a taser or gun in his hand and someone else died as a result.”  It’s not like it was treated as first degree murder and he got an LWOP or death sentence.

So, his doctor, attorney, and family don’t want him to spend time in jail because of severe arthritis and a heart condition.  Why those conditions never a consideration when he was going out on drug and weapon stings?

Brewster has indicated his appeal will be predicated on other 2nd degree manslaughter convictions he’s researched not ending up with incarceration.  This is nothing but pure hubris.  I’m sure Brewster convinced Bates that he could dirty up the vic enough there would not be a conviction and if it were it would be a suspended sentence.  They were stupid not to seek a plea deal, Bates would lose the ability to carry a firearm or sell insurance ever again, but he might not have ended up in prison for four years and could come and go to the Bahamas as he pleased. 

Here's the video.  I was gobsmacked when I heard her say this.

https://twitter.com/mikesimonsphoto/status/738013271886811136


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Ed W on June 02, 2016, 01:58:55 pm
Does Bates have to serve a third of his sentence before he's eligible for parole? He could be out in 16 months, if so.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2016, 02:18:47 pm
Does Bates have to serve a third of his sentence before he's eligible for parole? He could be out in 16 months, if so.

I saw somewhere this morning that in all likelihood, he won’t do a full four years pending an ODOC review.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 02, 2016, 03:04:26 pm
I saw somewhere this morning that in all likelihood, he won’t do a full four years pending an ODOC review.

I predict he'll spend 18 months tops, at a place like Conner in Hominy.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 02, 2016, 05:17:00 pm
I predict he'll spend 18 months tops, at a place like Conner in Hominy.

More likely he will be out of state so he wont run into any of his past Taserings.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 03, 2016, 12:26:41 am
More likely he will be out of state so he wont run into any of his past Taserings.

Where ever he goes he won't see general population, he'll wind up in a segregated section.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 03, 2016, 08:42:59 pm
You want to grab the wife and say: “He’s going to die in jail because he was too addled to know if he had a taser or gun in his hand and someone else died as a result.”

How much difference is there between "I thought it was my Taser" and "I thought my Taser wouldnt kill" ?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/man-dies-after-tulsa-police-officer-pepper-sprays-shocks-him/article_d8d5b3f7-a624-573c-8c79-c20bc546dc66.html


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 04, 2016, 05:03:26 pm
How much difference is there between "I thought it was my Taser" and "I thought my Taser wouldnt kill" ?



A 64-year-old man died at a hospital one week ago after officers pepper sprayed and Tased him during an arrest attempt at an east Tulsa motel.

Ollie Lee Brooks was pronounced dead at Oklahoma State University Medical Center after an ambulance transported him from the Super 8 Motel at 1011 S. Garnett Road, according to a search warrant affidavit.
Officers went to the motel at 6:19 p.m. to search the register for guests with outstanding warrants, police spokesman Leland Ashley said. They found that Brooks — who was wanted in Okmulgee County — was staying there.
Two officers went to his room, knocked on the door and, when Brooks answered, reportedly saw drug paraphernalia “in plain sight,” the affidavit states.
Police entered the room to arrest Brooks, and he “immediately resisted arrest by actively fighting officers,” according to the report.
An officer initially used oleoresin capsicum spray — pepper spray — in an attempt to get him to comply so they could put handcuffs on him, but it didn’t “have the desired effect” and Brooks continued to resist arrest, the affidavit states.
After that, the officer used a Taser on Brooks, who “continued to fight,” according to the document. Then Brooks was Tased a second time and “ceased his attempts to fight the officers,” according to the affidavit.
“EMSA got there, cleaned him up, removed the (Taser) prongs from him,” Ashley said.
An ambulance took Brooks to OSU Medical Center, where he later lost consciousness and died, the affidavit states. He was pronounced dead at 8:59 p.m.

The two officers involved in the arrest — Larry Crawford and Barry Hamm — were placed on paid leave following Brooks’ death, although Crawford was the officer who deployed both the spray and the Taser, Ashley said.
A warrant was filed four days later to search the hotel room for firearms, ammunition, fingerprints, blood, evidence of Taser deployment, evidence of pepper spray deployment, prescription medications, illegal drug paraphernalia, among other items.
The affidavit for the search warrant says investigators were searching for evidence of the altercation between Brooks and the officers, as well as evidence related to Brooks’ death.
No outside agencies, such as the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, were involved in the investigation, Ashley said.

The Okmulgee warrant was from 1991 and was never prosecuted.


A reporter asked the police chief if his department should have notified the media or public that a suspect’s death occurred after a physical encounter that included use of force — even if determined to be a medical issue.

“In hindsight after today, yeah, I probably would. Yes sir,” Jordan said.

The World reported Wednesday that Brooks was wanted on an Okmulgee County warrant, as online court records indicate. However, Jordan on Friday said officers actually matched Brooks to a 2015 city of Tulsa warrant. The department’s online warrant search indicates the warrant was for jaywalking.

Police spokeswoman Officer Jeanne MacKenzie said “A warrant’s a warrant” 

...and we will kill you over an old jaywalking ticket.





Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on July 15, 2016, 01:27:45 pm
Glanz skates without even so much as a mugshot.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on June 20, 2017, 09:54:51 am
Which of the deputies was this?

http://www.newson6.com/story/35700613/tulsa-county-settles-lawsuit-pays-ex-deputy-137k


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2017, 11:57:22 am
Which of the deputies was this?

http://www.newson6.com/story/35700613/tulsa-county-settles-lawsuit-pays-ex-deputy-137k

Bill McKelvey along with Shannon Clark were Ganz’ two henchmen that Glanz went all Captain Queeg on.


Title: Re: Tulsa County Sheriff shooting of Eric Harris
Post by: patric on October 18, 2017, 09:36:56 pm
Bill McKelvey along with Shannon Clark were Ganz’ two henchmen that Glanz went all Captain Queeg on.


Former reserve deputy Robert Bates could be released from prison as early as Thursday
https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/former-reserve-deputy-robert-bates-could-be-released/