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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: johrasephoenix on October 24, 2014, 10:31:06 am



Title: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on October 24, 2014, 10:31:06 am
Is Urban 8 still alive / under construction?  I've moved out of town but am trying to keep up with all the awesome stuff happening around Tulsa.  I haven't been able to find any news updates since June...


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: sgrizzle on October 24, 2014, 03:13:55 pm
Short answer: yes.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: carltonplace on October 30, 2014, 08:02:16 am
Dirt is moved, sticks will be going up soon.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: carltonplace on January 13, 2015, 12:26:16 pm
Foundations are done, they are going vertical now.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 13, 2015, 03:13:52 pm
Foundations are done, they are going vertical now.

 ???

(http://www.f-106deltadart.com/photo_gallery/var/albums/Depot-ALC's/smalc_590040_vertical_jim_vestal-01.jpg?m=1391303239)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: carltonplace on January 13, 2015, 03:38:15 pm
yea, it looks like that.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: ZYX on January 31, 2015, 01:51:03 pm
They've started the wood framing now, moving from the east units to the west.

I really like the scale and massing of these units, very appropriate for the neighborhood around them. I'm excited to see what the finished design looks like...the exteriors of the east units will likely be pretty much done in just a couple of months.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dsjeffries on February 02, 2015, 09:11:20 am
Photos of the progress, from this weekend:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8653/16241903617_1cc5bd800f.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7340/16240398750_e059ecdd5c.jpg)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8611/16240149658_d82ccffc03.jpg)

Full size images here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dscott28604/)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TheArtist on February 02, 2015, 09:51:04 am
Looks great!  Thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: davideinstein on February 02, 2015, 09:52:45 am
Are there any plans for the back side of that block?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DowntownDan on February 02, 2015, 09:57:56 am
I think this is the other side of that block.  If not, it's close.

http://www.newson6.com/story/27493589/east-village-the-next-hot-spot-for-tulsa-developers


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: carltonplace on February 02, 2015, 10:33:22 am
Hartford Commons is on the 2nd Street side of this lot

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20832.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20832.0)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGuy on February 02, 2015, 10:42:36 am
How many of these units have been purchased? 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 04, 2016, 12:03:13 pm
How many of these units have been purchased? 

That is the question of the year for Urban 8. Rumors are that zero have been sold. The developer has "purchased" 1 and the other has been shown as "SOLD" for the illusion that there is a limited supply.

The fact that they are this close to completion and have not sold any is very bad news for them. Another rumor is that the market will only allow for ~$500,000 homes in the area. When I first saw the price I doubted if any would sell (thinking they probably have room to budge). Apparently they have no room to budge and it is sell at $875k+ or go under. Even now, a year and a few months later, the area is still a little too underdeveloped for those rich enough for a million dollar home. After a few more things finish up, it will feel a lot nicer and more gentrified so that the premium shoppers could buy in.

Why can't anyone build AFFORDABLE condos downtown? (i.e. in the $100k-$300k range) Not even 1 single new place? Can anyone explain why?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 04, 2016, 12:34:58 pm
Why can't anyone build AFFORDABLE condos downtown? (i.e. in the $100k-$300k range) Not even 1 single new place? Can anyone explain why?

To clarify a bit, I understand the village at Central Park is in that range and are condos, but that is outside the IDL and although a good start, it is just 1 place. When you go to Little Rock or Memphis or OKC or any other decent sized city in the country, there are many options to purchase condos downtown in the heart of everything.

Tulsa loses quite a bit of density and cohesiveness in downtown due to the fact that the vast majority of people staying there either have short leases (1-2 years) or are only there for a couple nights in a hotel. No one sticks around for long because why would you throw so much money away to rent when you can buy so cheap in Tulsa and there are no options to buy downtown?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: BuiltRight on January 04, 2016, 02:27:59 pm
Part of the problem with "affordable" housing inside the IDL is any location that is in a active district (Blue Dome, Brady, ect) the land is going for about a $1,000,000+ an acre. So in the case of Urban 8 (I don't know what they paid for their land) that adds $120,000 to the price before you ever start building the condo.

I also have some hesitation when I see the numbers from The Village at Central Park, I really question what they will get them built for. the Urban 8 started out as a $400,000 - $500,000 unit price project.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 04, 2016, 03:34:41 pm
That is the question of the year for Urban 8. Rumors are that zero have been sold. The developer has "purchased" 1 and the other has been shown as "SOLD" for the illusion that there is a limited supply.

The fact that they are this close to completion and have not sold any is very bad news for them. Another rumor is that the market will only allow for ~$500,000 homes in the area. When I first saw the price I doubted if any would sell (thinking they probably have room to budge). Apparently they have no room to budge and it is sell at $875k+ or go under. Even now, a year and a few months later, the area is still a little too underdeveloped for those rich enough for a million dollar home. After a few more things finish up, it will feel a lot nicer and more gentrified so that the premium shoppers could buy in.

Why can't anyone build AFFORDABLE condos downtown? (i.e. in the $100k-$300k range) Not even 1 single new place? Can anyone explain why?

Once the bank gets them back then they will become affordable.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2016, 03:43:18 pm
Each of the Urban 8 units occupies .07 acres, or 3200 square feet of land. The reported sale value (to the assessors office) is $34,000 per lot, which equates to about $500k per acre. So even if they are illegally reporting half the value and the real value they paid is $1mil per acre, it still equates to only $68,000 per lot. A far cry from $120k... what people may ask for land/lots and what it actually sells for are often very different things  (see, e.g., the lot on 7th, 1.6 acres listed at $1mil).

And, for whatever its worth, I see 5 Urban 8 lofts listed at the moment:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Downtown-Tulsa_Tulsa_OK

and they are gorgeous:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/613-E-3rd-St_Tulsa_OK_74120_M86142-49568

But $250 a square is a top price point here.

Hopefully that means movement. Tough price point in Tulsa, since the alternative may be 3 acres and a McMansion. Kind of surprised the higher priced units aren't trying to deliver a small patch of yard for a dog, a grill, or whatever. Just a 10 x 30 patch of grass out back.







Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 04, 2016, 04:03:05 pm
Part of the problem with "affordable" housing inside the IDL is any location that is in a active district (Blue Dome, Brady, ect) the land is going for about a $1,000,000+ an acre. So in the case of Urban 8 (I don't know what they paid for their land) that adds $120,000 to the price before you ever start building the condo.

I also have some hesitation when I see the numbers from The Village at Central Park, I really question what they will get them built for. the Urban 8 started out as a $400,000 - $500,000 unit price project.

If they started with $400-$500k, they should've stuck with that. The obvious solution is to put multiple units in a building and charge less or make them less square feet per unit. $250/sq foot is top of the market.

As cannon_fodder said, It should actually be $34k-$68k per unit for just the land so that leaves $332k-$466k to work with for each unit (excluding profit) which is quite a bit to work with for a nice sizeable house. The developer must have been stubborn about design and amenities which I understand, but they should've either sold at least a few or done the market research to make sure you can sell at the price point they need to break even and make profit.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 04, 2016, 04:19:08 pm

And, for whatever its worth, I see 5 Urban 8 lofts listed at the moment:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Downtown-Tulsa_Tulsa_OK

and they are gorgeous:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/613-E-3rd-St_Tulsa_OK_74120_M86142-49568

But $250 a square is a top price point here.

Hopefully that means movement. Tough price point in Tulsa, since the alternative may be 3 acres and a McMansion. Kind of surprised the higher priced units aren't trying to deliver a small patch of yard for a dog, a grill, or whatever. Just a 10 x 30 patch of grass out back.


They are gorgeous! They look great on the outside and have extremely nice spacious interiors. They no doubt put lots of money into making these top-notch. Perhaps they are a bit too nice and spacious.

Besides a mcmansion, check out what you can get in midtown for $700-$900k:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1244-E-26th-St-Tulsa-OK-74114/22174882_zpid/ (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1244-E-26th-St-Tulsa-OK-74114/22174882_zpid/)

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/700000-950000_price/2596-3524_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.149554,-95.914207,36.08743,-96.004157_rect/13_zm/0_mmm/ (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/700000-950000_price/2596-3524_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.149554,-95.914207,36.08743,-96.004157_rect/13_zm/0_mmm/)

I love urban life and would love to live downtown, but if faced with the options of the above house on 26th or Urban 8, it would be very hard to turn down such a stately manor with an outdoor oasis in the prime historical neighborhood of Tulsa.

Nevertheless, we can only hope they sell for that and this helps pave the way for more downtown homes/condos.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on January 04, 2016, 05:42:22 pm
My wife and I did the downtown residential tour of some of the downtown residential offerings recently, including Urban 8 lofts, which, though beautiful, we thought they were overpriced especially after noticing the huge construction going on to the North (The Edge) right next to them.  Who would want to pay $875,000 and end up with a view like that?  Most of the other dwellings on the tour seemed to be pretty reasonable (though not nearly as nice as the Urban 8) but I'm thinking it's going to be a while before that price point is acceptable to folks looking to move downtown, unless and until the other Nelson-involved developments are closer to completion...


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on January 04, 2016, 08:24:49 pm
A lot of the older homes were built when it was cheaper to buy natural gas than insulation.  Be Careful.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 04, 2016, 09:05:40 pm
If I heard correctly, Yvonne Hovell, previously of East Tulsa Dodge, is the owner or developer.  Others associated with the project are James Boswell Architecture and the Holston Group.

Doing some googling around you find the following:

"Urban 8 is a joint venture between Hovell, West Construction, the Holston Group and architect James Boswell. Hovell owned Yvonne Hovell Dodge Chrysler Jeep of Tulsa before selling it to Oklahoma City-based Bob Moore Auto Group two years ago.”

Looking at the HBA of Tulsa web site, Yvonne Hovell is the contact for the Holston Group.

If you ask me it might be an inexperienced developer or someone living in their own world who assumes the line would be extraordinarily long for an $800K plus home in downtown Tulsa.  

Personally, if I could afford that much home, I would not be looking for something crowded in that tight with my neighbors.  I also wouldn’t be spending that money in Tulsa.  I could buy a pretty neat place in the BVI’s, Colorado, or New Mexico without a neighbor closer than an acre away.  

If they thought retirees were a viable market for them, I’m not sure how many retirees are looking for four story town houses without an elevator.  Most of us will have trouble with stairs as we get older, it’s an immutable fact of life unless those retirees are 30 year old internet millionaires.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on January 04, 2016, 10:15:07 pm
I could buy a pretty neat place in the BVI’s, Colorado, or New Mexico without a neighbor closer than an acre away.  

You had better get more land than that. My new across the street neighbors added a big ugly privacy fence to the view out my front window.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: saintnicster on January 05, 2016, 09:05:32 am
Part of the problem with "affordable" housing inside the IDL is any location that is in a active district (Blue Dome, Brady, ect) the land is going for about a $1,000,000+ an acre. So in the case of Urban 8 (I don't know what they paid for their land) that adds $120,000 to the price before you ever start building the condo.

I also have some hesitation when I see the numbers from The Village at Central Park, I really question what they will get them built for. the Urban 8 started out as a $400,000 - $500,000 unit price project.

Weren't the Arco Building condos going to be in the $200k range (back in 2008ish) before that fell through?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Tulsa Zephyr on January 10, 2016, 03:34:55 pm
If they thought retirees were a viable market for them, I’m not sure how many retirees are looking for four story town houses without an elevator.  Most of us will have trouble with stairs as we get older, it’s an immutable fact of life unless those retirees are 30 year old internet millionaires.


FYI...The Urban 8 townhomes actually do have an elevator.  Still not worth $875,000 IMO...


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DowntownDan on January 11, 2016, 09:23:56 am
They are gorgeous! They look great on the outside and have extremely nice spacious interiors. They no doubt put lots of money into making these top-notch. Perhaps they are a bit too nice and spacious.

Besides a mcmansion, check out what you can get in midtown for $700-$900k:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1244-E-26th-St-Tulsa-OK-74114/22174882_zpid/ (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1244-E-26th-St-Tulsa-OK-74114/22174882_zpid/)

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/700000-950000_price/2596-3524_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.149554,-95.914207,36.08743,-96.004157_rect/13_zm/0_mmm/ (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/700000-950000_price/2596-3524_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.149554,-95.914207,36.08743,-96.004157_rect/13_zm/0_mmm/)

I love urban life and would love to live downtown, but if faced with the options of the above house on 26th or Urban 8, it would be very hard to turn down such a stately manor with an outdoor oasis in the prime historical neighborhood of Tulsa.

Nevertheless, we can only hope they sell for that and this helps pave the way for more downtown homes/condos.

Yeah, considering what you can buy in midtown for the same price, the price for these is way out there.  You also can't live a true "urban life" yet from that location considering there are no grocery or drug stores in walking distance.  You'd actually have to drive farther from downtown to the closest grocery store (Reasor's at 15th and Lewis?) than from midtown itself.  I hope there is a market for these because I'd hate to have something like this fail and dissuade further development.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 11, 2016, 12:13:50 pm
You had better get more land than that. My new across the street neighbors added a big ugly privacy fence to the view out my front window.


Sounds like a front yard privacy fence....is that allowed in your neighborhood?  I thought it was against covenants there....at least the one guy I knew who lived in that area said so...?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: SXSW on January 11, 2016, 01:18:40 pm
Yeah, considering what you can buy in midtown for the same price, the price for these is way out there.  You also can't live a true "urban life" yet from that location considering there are no grocery or drug stores in walking distance.  You'd actually have to drive farther from downtown to the closest grocery store (Reasor's at 15th and Lewis?) than from midtown itself.  I hope there is a market for these because I'd hate to have something like this fail and dissuade further development.

I doubt it will dissuade further development but most of what we'll see downtown will be rentals and not for-purchase.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 11, 2016, 02:08:23 pm
It is pretty cool heading west on 3rd St. at Peoria to see Urban 8 on the horizon.  I just hope they fill it.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: LandArchPoke on January 11, 2016, 06:13:39 pm
Really not sure why anyone would ever buy these. Especially when your prime view (below) will be looking into an apartment complex...

(http://jblackstock.cctulsa.com/Homes/Images/Listings/99735671/13/d8a125ae3dd29664398499c3592f06eb/Photo.jpg)

(http://jblackstock.cctulsa.com/Homes/Images/Listings/99735671/4/21af98efb0ec664d2c5da407e2fae649/Photo.jpg)

At 3,470 sq. ft. I have no idea how you can market this to "empty nesters" looking to downsize. How many people in Tulsa are downsizing from 6,000 sq. ft. + in South Tulsa that would want these? For 4,000 sq. ft. in Midtown at $800,000 you can get something that won't have a 4 story apartment complex looking directly into your bedroom. I'm an urbanist who lives downtown and I even look at this as say what on earth were they thinking?

The price per sq. ft. isn't shocking, that's just what it costs to build downtown and similar prices in OKC have done just fine. Here's food for thought, if they broke each floor into 1 bedroom condos (~867 sq. ft.) at the same price per sq. ft. you'd be selling each for $217,000. I would be inclined to buy one at that price... but every developer in Tulsa is obsessed with building $400,000 plus units downtown and ignore the market that actually wants to buy downtown, and what they can afford. At $200K you can put up with the fact that there is apartments outside your window, but not at $800K.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on January 11, 2016, 06:23:48 pm
Really not sure why anyone would ever buy these.

At 3,470 sq. ft. I have no idea how you can market this to "empty nesters" looking to downsize. How many people in Tulsa are downsizing from 6,000 sq. ft. + in South Tulsa that would want these?

Hopefully, eight to sixteen people...


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: carltonplace on January 22, 2016, 09:14:18 am
Hopefully, eight to sixteen people...

lol, perspective.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 22, 2016, 11:28:44 am
Really not sure why anyone would ever buy these. Especially when your prime view (below) will be looking into an apartment complex...

(http://jblackstock.cctulsa.com/Homes/Images/Listings/99735671/13/d8a125ae3dd29664398499c3592f06eb/Photo.jpg)

(http://jblackstock.cctulsa.com/Homes/Images/Listings/99735671/4/21af98efb0ec664d2c5da407e2fae649/Photo.jpg)

At 3,470 sq. ft. I have no idea how you can market this to "empty nesters" looking to downsize. How many people in Tulsa are downsizing from 6,000 sq. ft. + in South Tulsa that would want these? For 4,000 sq. ft. in Midtown at $800,000 you can get something that won't have a 4 story apartment complex looking directly into your bedroom. I'm an urbanist who lives downtown and I even look at this as say what on earth were they thinking?

The price per sq. ft. isn't shocking, that's just what it costs to build downtown and similar prices in OKC have done just fine. Here's food for thought, if they broke each floor into 1 bedroom condos (~867 sq. ft.) at the same price per sq. ft. you'd be selling each for $217,000. I would be inclined to buy one at that price... but every developer in Tulsa is obsessed with building $400,000 plus units downtown and ignore the market that actually wants to buy downtown, and what they can afford. At $200K you can put up with the fact that there is apartments outside your window, but not at $800K.

You guys wanted to be like Portland, this is the price of admission.

http://www.opb.org/news/series/greetings-northwest/a-look-back-at-oregons-housing-crisis/ (http://www.opb.org/news/series/greetings-northwest/a-look-back-at-oregons-housing-crisis/)

http://www.oregonlive.com/watchdog/index.ssf/2015/09/post_19.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/watchdog/index.ssf/2015/09/post_19.html)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/23/portland-housing-rent-increase-gentrification-hipster-culture (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/23/portland-housing-rent-increase-gentrification-hipster-culture)



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: BKDotCom on January 22, 2016, 11:31:20 am
Quote
Really not sure why anyone would ever buy these. Especially when your prime view (below) will be looking into an apartment complex...

Can't see the forest because trees are in your way?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 22, 2016, 02:56:20 pm
Does anyone ever occupy low-rise in downtown because of the view? I wouldn't think that is one of the selling points on the brochure.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: saintnicster on January 22, 2016, 03:46:42 pm
Does anyone ever occupy low-rise in downtown because of the view? I wouldn't think that is one of the selling points on the brochure.

Urban 8 needs every positive stacked with it right now.  A good view could be a good distraction from that 900k mortgage

It would have helped since they aren't in the core of downtown.  Most of the buildings next to them are only 1 or two stories tall, so looking south was a nice view from the 3rd floor/patio, seeing the hills and landscape, or over and seeing the architecture mix of the core.

Counter that by looking north and seeing an apartment complex that is taller than yours.  It's just poor planning, but do we really expect anything else?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on January 22, 2016, 06:22:01 pm
Can't see the forest because trees are in your way?

I want different trees.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 22, 2016, 09:16:25 pm
I want different trees.
 
 ;D


Make mine palm or pine. Unless I’m in a mood for smoking then plum or apple is just fine.  ;D


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on January 23, 2016, 09:39:16 am
Make mine palm or pine. Unless I’m in a mood for smoking then plum or apple is just fine.  ;D

I use pecan for chipotles.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Laramie on January 23, 2016, 12:13:33 pm
(http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/project_photo_urban8-300x200.jpg)
Impressive, glad this project has taken shape.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on January 24, 2016, 08:29:57 pm
I bet in 15 years these will be worth a lot.  It's a shame they use that grey modern aesthetic instead of brick.  I thought the same thing with those condos over on Boulder.

The developers are also betting on the extreme upmarket segment of Tulsa to take a big stake in downtown revitalization.  That charge is really being led by young people though.  They're the generation that is resurrecting urban living and willing to take big risks.

To me these are natural three flats (a Tulsa version of the Boston classic).  This reduces price to ~$200k each which is much more manageable.  Also young people are much more likely to spring for a 2 bedroom flat than a $1m downtown mansion.

Anyway, I've lived in Chicago and Boston where three flats are the norm in many neighborhoods.  It brings density and does a lot better job of filling in space than the great big building surrounded by parking phenomenon we're dealing with now


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on January 25, 2016, 09:08:43 am
I'm wondering if they are going to try to close on all the units at the same time.  I figure as soon as one is sold they set their new low for the rest of the units.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on January 25, 2016, 03:41:46 pm
I'm wondering if they are going to try to close on all the units at the same time.  I figure as soon as one is sold they set their new low for the rest of the units.

I’m surprised you haven’t bought one yet.  It’s easy stumbling distance from those late nights at the Fur Shop.  ;D


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 09:26:42 am
These look pretty much completed minus a bit more landscaping. Still, only 1 (the far east) is furnished and potentially occupied.

The listings have been up since May and no recent sales are reported for that block. The parcels are split up in county land records. Only the east one is sold and it is to the developer. Sad to see such great places stay vacant this long. The lower price ($585k) seems close to what you might consider a reasonable too but still seems like there's no market for these places at that price.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/613-E-3rd-St-Tulsa-OK-74120/2098764906_zpid/ (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/613-E-3rd-St-Tulsa-OK-74120/2098764906_zpid/)

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/605-E-3rd-St-Tulsa-OK-74120/2098764905_zpid/ (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/605-E-3rd-St-Tulsa-OK-74120/2098764905_zpid/)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 09:27:06 am
Has anyone heard anything else about these?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: erfalf on August 26, 2016, 09:42:33 am
How do these prices compare to those around Cherry Street. These appear huge, so I am guessing much more expensive. If similar, that would be a bad indicator of the perception of downtown Tulsa. Because these are in as good of an area of downtown as they could get. Just several blocks from Blue Dome. It's on 3rd which is transforming in front of our eyes.

Are they quit simply just too big?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: SXSW on August 26, 2016, 09:54:42 am
I think they are too big, and thus too expensive, for those considering living downtown in this redeveloping area without any amenities (pool, etc).  Smart developers would be aiming for the 2/3 bed town homes but fit them in under 2000 SF by making them skinny (<12 ft wide).  I wish basements were more common in Tulsa because that's a perfect spot for a 3rd bedroom or storage. 

The market is there for young professionals or couples starting out but you risk pricing them out if you go above $200/SF.  You can get older houses that have been redone in midtown (which is more desirable at this point) around $150/SF.  IMO the empty lots in Riverview have better townhouse potential (at least right now) than anywhere inside the IDL.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 10:21:06 am
How do these prices compare to those around Cherry Street. These appear huge, so I am guessing much more expensive. If similar, that would be a bad indicator of the perception of downtown Tulsa. Because these are in as good of an area of downtown as they could get. Just several blocks from Blue Dome. It's on 3rd which is transforming in front of our eyes.

Are they quit simply just too big?

They are about the same size and far more expensive than condos on Cherry St (which mostly range from ~$200-$450k).

Check out this 2154 sqare foot place which sold for $300k recently right off of Cherry St which has much higher walkability ratings than downtown:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1405-S-Quincy-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74120/22102120_zpid/

Another one by there that is much nicer with 2000 sq feet and garage apartment just for $400k after being up for a couple days:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1411-S-Rockford-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74120/89358526_zpid/

Either of these is better urban living now and at a price point the downtown condos can't compete with and these are both better at just about every disadvantage I listed above (private parking garage with 3+ spaces, quiet, private, more established resale market, great yards). If I was looking to buy something like that, I would look at walk ability scores and overall amenities nearby along with what you get for the price. Cherry St is rated much better right now and more consistently lively overall. Downtown to cherry st is the minimum cab fare (~$3.5-$5), will be connected via rapid transit and only a few minute drive or 10-minute bike ride.

If I were buying urban now, I would be happier living in Cherry St a couple years and moving to downtown after a lot of the big items are completed and the urban 8s are being foreclosed on. Seriously though, downtown has a major shortage of affordable condos in the $100-$350k range (there are zero in the IDL besides Central Park condos which are bad). Why can't any developer build a condo building with housing people working normal great jobs can afford to buy? There would certainly be a market for that.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 10:33:24 am
How do these prices compare to those around Cherry Street. These appear huge, so I am guessing much more expensive. If similar, that would be a bad indicator of the perception of downtown Tulsa. Because these are in as good of an area of downtown as they could get. Just several blocks from Blue Dome. It's on 3rd which is transforming in front of our eyes.

Are they quit simply just too big?

Most Cherry St Condos are $120-$150/ft2. The one I linked above for $400k was exceptionally nice and was closer to $200/ft2 (GreenArch designed efficient duplex-condo with a grass roof and high end design).


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2016, 11:03:19 am


Seriously though, downtown has a major shortage of affordable condos in the $100-$350k range (there are zero in the IDL besides Central Park condos which are bad).
 

According to 100 Boulder's website (http://www.100boulder.com/pricing.html), there are nine units for sale in the $209,000 to $226,000 range.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: hello on August 26, 2016, 11:06:59 am
According to 100 Boulder's website (http://www.100boulder.com/pricing.html), there are nine units for sale in the $209,000 to $226,000 range.

Who wants to pay that much for a studio apartment?  >:(


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: swake on August 26, 2016, 11:18:18 am
Who wants to pay that much for a studio apartment?  >:(

The Soviets would be challenged to build something as bad as that crapfest.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 11:32:35 am
According to 100 Boulder's website (http://www.100boulder.com/pricing.html), there are nine units for sale in the $209,000 to $226,000 range.



I had assumed those had all sold because they are no longer listed in the MLS. Maybe they had extended the allowable sale time?

Those don't look like 1000ft2. A typical ~1000 ft2 cottage in midtown is 2 bed/1 bath. That place doesn't even look very spacious, especially for a 1000 ft2 studio. Maybe because the stairs take up a lot of that and the bath/laundry area is pretty large, but still compared to other small 2 bed/1 bath houses I've been in recently, it looks much smaller. I agree, who would pay that much for a studio. Seems like a 1 or 2 bedroom would've been better.

I know a lot of people gave this place flack for being only 2 story and the fact they've only sold 9 of 18 after this many years shows they should've built up a bit to get more of a bulk savings discount for the land and obviously (based on 8 of those sold are on 2nd floor), higher up is strongly preferred so floors 3-4 would've been even more highly sought after and with that many, maybe the price can be reduced to $160-$180k which vastly opens up the market. Maybe parking was the limiting factor.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on August 26, 2016, 12:25:40 pm
The phone number is disconnected I heard from somebody. Also heard rumors they are pretty close to going under. That was a month ago I heard the going under part and a week for the number being disconnected.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 12:34:08 pm
The phone number is disconnected I heard from somebody. Also heard rumors they are pretty close to going under. That was a month ago I heard the going under part and a week for the number being disconnected.

Urban8 or 100 Boulder?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on August 26, 2016, 12:58:56 pm
Urban 8


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2016, 01:04:09 pm

I had assumed those [100 Boulder condos] had all sold because they are no longer listed in the MLS. Maybe they had extended the allowable sale time?


The last time I checked, a few weeks ago, only four had sold.  100 Boulder LLC owned fourteen of the eighteen.


Those don't look like 1000ft2. A typical ~1000 ft2 cottage in midtown is 2 bed/1 bath. That place doesn't even look very spacious, especially for a 1000 ft2 studio. Maybe because the stairs take up a lot of that and the bath/laundry area is pretty large, but still compared to other small 2 bed/1 bath houses I've been in recently, it looks much smaller. I agree, who would pay that much for a studio.


I don't know how large the 100 Boulder condo units are.  They seem small to me, and I wouldn't pay that much for a studio.  In my opinion, 100 Boulder is an awful development.  My reply was to this:


Seriously though, downtown has a major shortage of affordable condos in the $100-$350k range (there are zero in the IDL besides Central Park condos which are bad).


There aren't many condos within the $100,000 to $350,000 price range inside the IDL other than Central Park, but nine is more than zero.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DowntownDan on August 26, 2016, 02:51:31 pm
I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown, but condos like this keep going up.  A grocer or pharmacy would seem to have some risks but could probably succeed with the current level of apartment dwellers and possibly some business from workers.  But Urban 8 and the tiny Boulder 100 or whatever its called seemed certain to fail.  Who would finance such obvious risks?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: erfalf on August 26, 2016, 03:25:30 pm
I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown, but condos like this keep going up.  A grocer or pharmacy would seem to have some risks but could probably succeed with the current level of apartment dwellers and possibly some business from workers.  But Urban 8 and the tiny Boulder 100 or whatever its called seemed certain to fail.  Who would finance such obvious risks?

THIS

Do these developers own banks or something. I understand the draw to high value condos (ie highest profit potential). But don't they know they won't sell there?

On the flip side, do you think if they plunked Utica Place down at this very same spot (as Urban 8), do they sell the penthouses for the same (or anywhere near as close) price as they do where they are currently located?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 03:51:05 pm
I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown, but condos like this keep going up.  A grocer or pharmacy would seem to have some risks but could probably succeed with the current level of apartment dwellers and possibly some business from workers.  But Urban 8 and the tiny Boulder 100 or whatever its called seemed certain to fail.  Who would finance such obvious risks?

There's only 3 tiny condo developments downtown. All of them with serious design problems as discussed above and/or too expensive to be marketable (probably because they were all such small scale). Are you meaning why are there so many apartment developments? There are over a thousand apartment units recently completed or planned whereas only 50 (8+18+24) new condos developed, half of which may never be built.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 26, 2016, 03:56:18 pm
I don't know how large the 100 Boulder condo units are.  
There aren't many condos within the $100,000 to $350,000 price range inside the IDL other than Central Park, but nine is more than zero.

They are 1000ft2. I was saying they seem smaller than that. Doesn't look like good use of 1000ft2.



There aren't many condos within the $100,000 to $350,000 price range inside the IDL other than Central Park, but nine is more than zero.

I understand. That is why I said I thought they were sold because the MLS postings were all removed. Even then, my above comment still stands: that is a measly 9 poorly-designed small-scale (too small to be economical) studio condos with only 1 unit available on the 2nd floor. Those might technically be "affordable" but I can't imagine many people wanting a 1st floor condo right there with a studio/no balcony/street view for $209k. Those aren't even in a decently walkable area of downtown. If they scaled up, they might be able to offer them at a competitive price.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2016, 04:52:20 pm


I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown...


It's not open 24/7, but there's a Walgreen's on South Houston.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 26, 2016, 05:08:44 pm


[100 Boulder condo units] are 1000ft2. I was saying they seem smaller than that. Doesn't look like good use of 1000ft2.

I understand. That is why I said I thought [the 100 Boulder condos] were sold because the MLS postings were all removed. Even then, my above comment still stands: that is a measly 9 poorly-designed small-scale (too small to be economical) studio condos with only 1 unit available on the 2nd floor. Those might technically be "affordable" but I can't imagine many people wanting a 1st floor condo right there with a studio/no balcony/street view for $209k. Those aren't even in a decently walkable area of downtown. If they scaled up, they might be able to offer them at a competitive price.


In my opinion, the 100 Boulder project is a piece of junk.  It's horrible.  It's overpriced.  However, if someone didn't have more than $226,000 to spend on a condo downtown and really wanted to buy a condo downtown, then 100 Boulder would be an option.

The walk score for 100 Boulder is 79.

The walk score for Central Park condos is 77.

The walk score for 3rd & Greenwood ( Urban 8 ) is 62.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: swake on August 26, 2016, 05:15:36 pm
It's not open 24/7, but there's a Walgreen's on South Houston.



I never knew there was one there, but then I just checked and it closes at 6:00pm!


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DowntownDan on August 27, 2016, 11:05:46 am
There's only 3 tiny condo developments downtown. All of them with serious design problems as discussed above and/or too expensive to be marketable (probably because they were all such small scale). Are you meaning why are there so many apartment developments? There are over a thousand apartment units recently completed or planned whereas only 50 (8+18+24) new condos developed, half of which may never be built.

I love the apartment developments.  I don't understand any of the super expensive condos and thought right off the bad they were certain to fail.  I think there would be a market for condos downtown, but not 500K+, or with the obvious problems of Boulder 100. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 29, 2016, 09:11:38 am
In my opinion, the 100 Boulder project is a piece of junk.  It's horrible.  It's overpriced.  However, if someone didn't have more than $226,000 to spend on a condo downtown and really wanted to buy a condo downtown, then 100 Boulder would be an option.

The walk score for 100 Boulder is 79.

The walk score for Central Park condos is 77.

The walk score for 3rd & Greenwood ( Urban 8 ) is 62.


Wow, all of those are pretty bad... especially for a downtown supposedly urban area. Cherry St is in the 90s. Most of Renaissance and even large parts of Florence Park have ratings around the 60s-70s. GreenArch is rated 50. I know walkscore is not a great objective measure but it does give an idea of what percentage of things you need to live are within about a 1-mile radius. According to it, downtown centered around the library to 5th and Denver has the highest walkability downtown. That is also where the most homeless tend to congregate day to day FWIW (the people actually having to walk around day to day). That spot isn't necessarily the best location to live because of the lack of lively walking areas or districts in the direct vicinity/nightlife. So maybe the 100 Boulder location wouldn't have been so bad if only they had gathered the investment to make a larger scale project.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 29, 2016, 09:38:00 am


[The Walk Score for] Cherry St is in the 90s.
 

Where is the Walk Score in the 90s along 15th St?

When I typed a few intersections, Walk Score gave the following:

15th & Peoria: 86
15th & Quincy: 87 (https://www.walkscore.com/score/e-15th-st-and-s-quincy-ave-tulsa-ok-74120)
15th & St Louis: 86
15th & Utica: 88 (https://www.walkscore.com/score/e-15th-st-and-s-utica-ave-tulsa-ok-74104)
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 29, 2016, 10:13:59 am
Where is the Walk Score in the 90s along 15th St?

When I typed a few intersections, Walk Score gave the following:

15th & Peoria: 86
15th & Quincy: 87 (https://www.walkscore.com/score/e-15th-st-and-s-quincy-ave-tulsa-ok-74120)
15th & St Louis: 86
15th & Utica: 88 (https://www.walkscore.com/score/e-15th-st-and-s-utica-ave-tulsa-ok-74104)
 

Maybe it has changed the last time I looked at it. Looking at the graph, it is the darkest green around Cherry st for the largest area compared to anywhere else in Tulsa. It used to be in the low 90s for the blocks around that strip. Again, that map is not perfect. It is missing at least half a dozen restaurants and other places just for Cherry St and doesn't even include Reasors on  15th as a grocery store. It says downtown has 2 grocery stores (1 at 4th and Cheyenne which might be a reason that area is so high).

It is still useful to give an idea of how much stuff is in an area.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 29, 2016, 12:41:14 pm


Maybe [the Walk Score] has changed the last time I looked at it. Looking at the graph, it is the darkest green around Cherry st for the largest area compared to anywhere else in Tulsa. It used to be in the low 90s for the blocks around that strip. Again, that map is not perfect. It is missing at least half a dozen restaurants and other places just for Cherry St and doesn't even include Reasors on  15th as a grocery store. It says downtown has 2 grocery stores (1 at 4th and Cheyenne which might be a reason that area is so high).

It is still useful to give an idea of how much stuff is in an area.
 

Thanks.  I wanted to be sure we were comparing the same thing.  It looks as though Walk Score has some significant shortcomings.  When I looked at the Walk Score map of downtown Tulsa a few minutes ago, it listed several "grocery" stores that don't exist.  And you are correct, the Reasor's at 15th & Lewis doesn't appear as a grocery store on Walk Score's map.  I'd assumed that the relatively high Walk Score around 4th & Cheyenne was based on the Tulsa Transit station, not "grocery" stores!

Urban 8:  IMO, the units are too vertical.  Most people in Tulsa don't want to live on four levels.  An elevator is an option, but an added expense.  The views around 3rd and Greenwood aren't that wonderful.  I thought perhaps Yvonne would find a tiny niche market in Tulsa for her eight-unit project, but apparently not.

100 Boulder:  An ugly and stupid design.  The units aren't too small, but they're too small for the price.  Most people in Tulsa don't want to pay $200K+ for a studio apartment and snooze on a Murphy bed.  When I looked on the County Assessor's website a few weeks ago, only four of the eighteen units had sold.  Fourteen were still owned by 100 Boulder LLC.

Davenport:  Not ugly, but originally, the building was VERY poorly planned.  When I first saw the floor plans (more than a year ago), I was astounded by the ridiculous waste of space and views.  The units have been re-planned since then, and the layouts are much better.  In general, however, I think the units are too expensive.

But it really doesn't matter what I think.  If Yvonne can find seven or eight buyers ... if Joe Westervelt and Chris Bumgarner can find nine to fourteen more buyers ... if the Davenport developers can find nineteen to twenty-four buyers at their asking price (which is subject to change -- again), then the projects will work.  The Davenport won't be built unless a certain number of units are pre-sold.  A market may develop ... we'll see.  Right now, I don't think there's enough demand for any of these projects.
   


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 29, 2016, 02:45:54 pm

But it really doesn't matter what I think.  If Yvonne can find seven or eight buyers ... if Joe Westervelt and Chris Bumgarner can find nine to fourteen more buyers ... if the Davenport developers can find nineteen to twenty-four buyers at their asking price (which is subject to change -- again), then the projects will work.  The Davenport won't be built unless a certain number of units are pre-sold.  A market may develop ... we'll see.  Right now, I don't think there's enough demand for any of these projects.
   

I was hoping they would find success which would lend credibility to building condos in Tulsa but maybe they did the opposite. There is almost certainly a market for mid-priced condos as there has been in every other major city around (even Little Rock which has far more than Tulsa downtown).

Central Park condos regularly sell places at reasonable/cheap prices. Unfortunately, the place has a bad reputation based on management and fees vs the condition of the property. Also, it is not in a prime spot. I've toured the high-end remodels along with average condition ones and it was the things outside your control that turned me off from the place (HVAC, liability with leaks from above, plumbing, pests, ugly tint on windows, sprawled parking lot, inconvenience of coming and going without the convenience of being connected to the hot spots of downtown). I understand any condo can have several of these things, but location was the biggest and if it was a new condo building, most of the others likely wouldn't be issues either.

Strangely, it is faster to drive from Cherry St to Blue Dome/Brady than from Central Park because of the door-to-door factor leaving the condo. So no real benefit to living downtown over a house outside the IDL.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on August 29, 2016, 03:21:07 pm
I was hoping they would find success which would lend credibility to building condos in Tulsa but maybe they did the opposite. There is almost certainly a market for mid-priced condos as there has been in every other major city around (even Little Rock which has far more than Tulsa downtown).

Central Park condos regularly sell places at reasonable/cheap prices. Unfortunately, the place has a bad reputation based on management and fees vs the condition of the property. Also, it is not in a prime spot. I've toured the high-end remodels along with average condition ones and it was the things outside your control that turned me off from the place (HVAC, liability with leaks from above, plumbing, pests, ugly tint on windows, sprawled parking lot, inconvenience of coming and going without the convenience of being connected to the hot spots of downtown). I understand any condo can have several of these things, but location was the biggest and if it was a new condo building, most of the others likely wouldn't be issues either.

Strangely, it is faster to drive from Cherry St to Blue Dome/Brady than from Central Park because of the door-to-door factor leaving the condo. So no real benefit to living downtown over a house outside the IDL.

As I recall, Central Park started as apartments and were turned into condos in the late 1990s (or did they start as condos, become apartments and later turned back into condos?).  I’d be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.

Perhaps to some extent Tulsa’s downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don’t have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 29, 2016, 03:34:59 pm
As I recall, Central Park started as apartments and were turned into condos in the late 1990s (or did they start as condos, become apartments and later turned back into condos?).  I’d be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.

Perhaps to some extent Tulsa’s downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don’t have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.



They started as apartments, constructed in the late 1960’s or early 1970’s.  I lived there ’87 to ’89, it was a fun place to live as a young 20 something.  They became condos at some point in the early ’90’s.  They were a great option for downtown living as there really wasn’t much at the time they converted these.  Liberty Tower or University Club were about the only other decent options.  To my knowledge, Liberty Tower has always been condos.  It’s infrastructure seems better kept than Central Park.

I’m curious to how the prices at Urban 8 and Davenport would compare to Yorktown Condos at 21st & Yorktown or 2300 Riverside.  I wonder if some reluctance for retirees to buy such a place is if they perceive downtown as becoming “too busy”.

Honestly, when I think of retirement, I don’t think of dense urban cores.  I think of mountains or sand and water.  That might be part of the issue.  I simply would not invest $400-$500K into a condo in Tulsa, Oklahoma.  I could justify that out in the high country or somewhere in the Caribbean...and it wouldn’t be a condo either.  YMMV.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 29, 2016, 03:49:31 pm
I’d be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.


Not much usually. A lot appreciated from the 90s til now, but many sell for very close the values sold at 10+ years ago. The fixed up ones do a lot better, but few if any keep up with the growth in value that midtown homes have seen in that time. They have benefited from the downtown resurgence, but the small apartments are still selling from $30k-$70k while the larger ones are going around $90-$120k which is about what they were at 8-10 years ago.

Quote
Perhaps to some extent Tulsa’s downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don’t have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.

I think so. Which is why IMO, we need much cheaper options for that to catch on. If everything planned in downtown gets built, it will really boost the area and help provide an experience even close neighborhoods outside the IDL can't compete with, making condo life more desirable (Imagine a massive retail/courtyard place like Santa Fe Square right out your doorstep).

Condo life can be tough. Parking. Getting furniture in/out. Neighbors with barking dogs. If you have a dog... Having to let them out several times a day (In the cold!) as opposed to letting them out the back door. The deal is, (as in bigger cities), you normally get a big discount living in a condo as opposed to living in a house close to downtown. That is not at all the case for these in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 29, 2016, 06:27:54 pm
Not much usually. A lot appreciated from the 90s til now, but many sell for very close the values sold at 10+ years ago. The fixed up ones do a lot better, but few if any keep up with the growth in value that midtown homes have seen in that time. They have benefited from the downtown resurgence, but the small apartments are still selling from $30k-$70k while the larger ones are going around $90-$120k which is about what they were at 8-10 years ago.



Essentially, if you used a realtor to sell your CP condo 10 years after you bought it, you will lose about 6% on your investment.

I’m not making a value judgement here on the worth of using a real estate agent, just saying for the average person, a condo at Central Park should not be viewed as an investment.

A friend of the family moved back from NYC in the mid-1980’s, he needed a place to live and to park some cash.  He was buying up foreclosed units in Liberty Tower when he could and has done pretty well with them over the years renting them out. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on August 30, 2016, 02:01:19 pm
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/629-E-3rd-St-8_Tulsa_OK_74120_M80153-06419 (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/629-E-3rd-St-8_Tulsa_OK_74120_M80153-06419)

Looks like one of those Urban 8 units sold.  I bet they feel pretty dumb if it did indeed sold and now they have dropped a couple hundred thousand.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 30, 2016, 02:14:28 pm
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/629-E-3rd-St-8_Tulsa_OK_74120_M80153-06419 (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/629-E-3rd-St-8_Tulsa_OK_74120_M80153-06419)

Looks like one of those Urban 8 units sold.  I bet they feel pretty dumb if it did indeed sold and now they have dropped a couple hundred thousand.


According to the assessor’s web site that is the unit Yvonne Hovell, the developer, personally owns.  A deed was granted from Tulsa Urban Development Group, LLC to her in April.

The rest of the units all belong to TUDG, LLC.  In other words, she has not sold a single unit.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 30, 2016, 05:39:44 pm
News on 6 update on August 30, 2016 (http://www.newson6.com/story/32880565/future-uncertain-for-pricey-downtown-tulsa-condos)

Compare/contrast:

April 22, 2015 News on 6 report (http://www.newson6.com/story/28875942/pricey-downtown-living-developments-targeting-empty-nesters)



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 30, 2016, 08:30:04 pm
News on 6 update on August 30, 2016 (http://www.newson6.com/story/32880565/future-uncertain-for-pricey-downtown-tulsa-condos)

Compare/contrast:

April 22, 2015 News on 6 report (http://www.newson6.com/story/28875942/pricey-downtown-living-developments-targeting-empty-nesters)



The story from April, 2015 has elements of products of combustion being wafted into an anal cavity.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 07:59:48 am
News on 6 update on August 30, 2016 (http://www.newson6.com/story/32880565/future-uncertain-for-pricey-downtown-tulsa-condos)

Compare/contrast:

April 22, 2015 News on 6 report (http://www.newson6.com/story/28875942/pricey-downtown-living-developments-targeting-empty-nesters)



Many of those comments are rude and untrue. They use this developer's (potential) failure as an excuse to rant on downtown. Calling downtown a place full of crack addicts... Someone hasn't been there for over a decade. Comparing Tulsa's downtown to metros with 5X to 10X as many people. Tulsa will never be Dallas, Chicago or Austin. Tulsa can be a great little city. Our downtown is a neat place with lots of character and local businesses for a small city. Having more suburbanites support our downtown will go a long way to make it better.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on August 31, 2016, 08:55:44 am
These will sell at the real market price in a year or so.  When they do, the buyers will have gotten a pretty decent deal on some very cool townhouses.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 09:13:35 am
These will sell at the real market price in a year or so.  When they do, the buyers will have gotten a pretty decent deal on some very cool townhouses.

If they go to foreclosure, that would be pretty bad for them (and that seems hard to believe they will let it get to that - would be better to slash prices to the $450-$550k range first which should be a very marketable range compared to Cherry St condos). How many investors can even afford to bid on that high value of a 1-family unit? I would think the foreclosure value would be close to $400k. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: erfalf on August 31, 2016, 09:25:17 am
Many of those comments are rude and untrue. They use this developer's (potential) failure as an excuse to rant on downtown. Calling downtown a place full of crack addicts... Someone hasn't been there for over a decade. Comparing Tulsa's downtown to metros with 5X to 10X as many people. Tulsa will never be Dallas, Chicago or Austin. Tulsa can be a great little city. Our downtown is a neat place with lots of character and local businesses for a small city. Having more suburbanites support our downtown will go a long way to make it better.

You're right, downtown Tulsa (particularly the areas to the north end/Brady/Blue Dome/East End) are all pretty clean and nice. It's not a knock on downtown so much as it should be a knock on the misguided assessment of the market by the developer. That's it really. You win some you loose some. We still need these guys stepping up and taking these risks.

That being said, my biggest critique of this development is that it is only 8 residential units on a couple of acres. That is so not dense enough even for the edges of downtown.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 10:37:20 am

These will sell at the real market price in a year or so.  When they do, the buyers will have gotten a pretty decent deal on some very cool townhouses.


Not sure if it will be in a year or so, but I agree that they'll eventually sell for the real market price.

Urban 8's website states that the interiors can be customized.  Channel 6's report states that drywall has not be installed in some areas.  If all of that's true, then the interior layouts might be relatively flexible.  Instead of empty nesters, perhaps some of the units could be sold (or leased) to groups of young people who don't mind climbing stairs.

Idea:  Re-work the layouts based on what's already in place, such as the stairway, the windows, and the plumbing.  Add bathrooms near the central plumbing stack, if possible.  Split the master bedroom to create four bedrooms on the third level.  Add a bedroom or two on the fourth level, if possible.  Add a bedroom on the first level, if possible.  Six people could share a unit and still have tons of communal space on the second level.  


....my biggest critique of this development is that it is only 8 residential units on a couple of acres. That is so not dense enough even for the edges of downtown.
 

I agree.  It's not dense enough.  But if Yvonne can find eight buyers -- at some price...
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 31, 2016, 10:46:42 am
Not sure if it will be in a year or so, but I agree that they'll eventually sell for the real market price.

Urban 8's website states that the interiors can be customized.  Channel 6's report states that drywall has not be installed in some areas.  If all of that's true, then the interior layouts might be relatively flexible.  Instead of empty nesters, perhaps some of the units could be sold to groups of young people who don't mind climbing stairs.

Idea:  Re-work the layouts based on what's already in place, such as the stairway, the windows, and the plumbing.  Add bathrooms near the central plumbing stack, if possible.  Split the master bedroom to create four bedrooms on the third level.  Add a bedroom or two on the fourth level, if possible.  Add a bedroom on the first level, if possible.  Six people could share a unit and still have tons of communal space on the second level. 

I agree.  It's not dense enough.  But if Yvonne can find eight buyers -- at some price...
 

It said “bare, unfinished walls” in some places.  I take that to mean taped and mudded but not painted.  Either way, it’s not as big a PITA to move things around than after the unit is finished out.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: saintnicster on August 31, 2016, 10:49:36 am
Urban 8's website states that the interiors can be customized.  Channel 6's report states that drywall has not be installed in some areas.  If all of that's true, then the interior layouts might be relatively flexible.  Instead of empty nesters, perhaps some of the units could be sold to groups of young people who don't mind climbing stairs.

There is an elevator in every unit.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 31, 2016, 10:51:33 am

That being said, my biggest critique of this development is that it is only 8 residential units on a couple of acres. That is so not dense enough even for the edges of downtown.



That's over 100 ft X 100 ft per unit land area.  That's bigger than most suburban addition lots!



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 31, 2016, 10:56:26 am

Tulsa will never be Dallas, Chicago or Austin. Tulsa can be a great little city. Our downtown is a neat place with lots of character and local businesses for a small city. Having more suburbanites support our downtown will go a long way to make it better.



The highlighted comment just has too much of a Trump flavor to it to not comment....

Tulsa IS a great little city!!


What is it that is making us think in all these backward thought processes...??   We are a great city - and as with all things, there is plenty to improve on!  But that in no way negates what we already are and have!




Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 11:16:18 am


It said “bare, unfinished walls” in some places.  I take that to mean taped and mudded but not painted.


About 54 seconds into her report, Meagan Farley said that there isn't even sheetrock up on the walls and most of them are still unfinished.  I take that to mean that drywall has not been installed in some areas.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 11:34:14 am

There is an elevator in every unit.


There is an elevator shaft in every unit.  There is a dedicated space for an elevator in every unit, but the installation of an elevator is optional.  Without an elevator, the stair would be the way most people would travel vertically inside a unit.

That's why I suggested re-working the interior layouts for groups of younger people who might not mind living on four levels and going up and down stairs.

By not finishing the units with expensive materials, by not installing elevators, and by modifying the layouts to accommodate communal group living, six people might be able to split the rent or mortgage payment and have a good place to live near the edge of downtown Tulsa.

An average of 500 to 600 square feet of space per occupant would be more than adequate, in my opinion.  If the group had a total of five or six cars, then parking would need to worked out, probably with some vehicles parked on the street.  



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on August 31, 2016, 11:34:21 am
I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.  You could easily fit 3-6 units in each of those building envelopes.  


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 11:42:19 am

I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.
 

Probably not, because of the position of the stairs and windows.  The units are large, but the stairs and windows are already in place.

If the stairs had been built along a sidewall or in the center of the units, then splitting them into triplexes might work.  But I'm trying to suggest a way Yvonne could "finish" what has already been constructed, re-focus her target market, and get the units sold or leased.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: erfalf on August 31, 2016, 11:48:53 am

That's over 100 ft X 100 ft per unit land area.  That's bigger than most suburban addition lots!



I think a typical lot in Tulsa is 50 by 150 with some right away in a lot of areas for alleys. Most suburban lots are wider (ranch style homes) but not near as deep (especially with the advent of attached garages). Even the mansions in Maple Ridge don't sit on much bigger than 100 x 150. I've seen plenty of mansions in Highland Park Texas of equivalent square footage and amenities on the 50 foot wide lots. It's not that the units were too big (necessarily), it's that the land each one takes up is way too much. And to boot, it only serves one function, housing.

I also assume there are no design restraints when it comes to this issue.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 12:06:45 pm

There are eight lots.

Lot 8 (the farthest lot east facing 3rd St with Yvonne's furnished model unit) is 67' x 80'.

Lots 3-7 (facing 3rd St) are 40' x 80' each.

Lot 2 (on the corner of 3rd and Greenwood) is 40' x 51'.

Lot 1 (facing Greenwood) is an L-shaped lot, 40' wide along Greenwood with a 22' wide access lane to 3rd Street for a driveway.  

There's probably some sort of mutual access agreement along the north side of Lots 3-7 for the driveway from Lots 1 and 8 to the rear garages.

The units are approximately 32 feet wide with an 8' courtyard along one side.

The overall area of the project, measured to the centerlines of the abutting streets, is 420' x 110', or 46,200 sq ft, or 1.06 acre.

The density is 7.54 dwelling units per acre.
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on August 31, 2016, 12:39:40 pm
About 54 seconds into her report, Meagan Farley said that there isn't even sheetrock up on the walls and most of them are still unfinished.  I take that to mean that drywall has not been installed in some areas.

I interpret that to mean the developer cannot or is unwilling to pay to finish them before getting them under contract.  The price drop so far probably reflects the reduction in the high end finishes that were originally planned (with upcharges to add those features back in).  The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.

I hoped this project would succeed, but it never made sense at this stage of downtown development, at this location and at this low density use of expensive real estate.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 01:05:14 pm
The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.


Interesting to note that the Zestimate is $350k & $391k for the 2 price options ($580k & $690k respectively).


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 01:13:12 pm
I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.  You could easily fit 3-6 units in each of those building envelopes.  

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 01:16:58 pm


I interpret that to mean the developer cannot or is unwilling to pay to finish them before getting them under contract.  The price drop so far probably reflects the reduction in the high end finishes that were originally planned (with upcharges to add those features back in).  The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.

I hoped this project would succeed, but it never made sense at this stage of downtown development, at this location and at this low density use of expensive real estate.


So, you don't interpret "there isn't even sheetrock up" as "drywall is installed, taped and mudded, but not painted yet."

I agree with your assessment, DTowner.  Urban 8 never made sense.  I'm trying to think of ways Yvonne could cut her losses.

Zestimates aren't necessarily reliable, but I think Yvonne has been extremely unrealistic all along, and those asking prices must be lowered.  Otherwise, the project will continue to sit empty.
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 01:24:10 pm

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.
 

Easy to say, but not so easy to do.  Single family dwellings and duplexes are covered by the International Residential Code.  Triplexes are covered by the more stringent International Building Code.  Egress and fire rated separations between dwelling units isn't as simple as adding a wall with a door on each floor parallel to the stairs.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 01:39:52 pm

The highlighted comment just has too much of a Trump flavor to it to not comment....

Tulsa IS a great little city!!


What is it that is making us think in all these backward thought processes...??   We are a great city - and as with all things, there is plenty to improve on!  But that in no way negates what we already are and have!

I didn't mean it like that. I was referring to people complaining about our downtown not being great and nothing compared to Dallas/KC/Chicago. I agree that all of those cities downtowns make ours look pretty menial but that we can have one of the greatest downtowns of any smaller city around. But we are not there yet. Our downtown isn't even as good as Little Rock or Des Moines in many ways (they have lots of condos, DM has great walkability downtown and is clean, LR has transit/trolley great walkability downtown - partially thanks to the topography forcing everything to be close). In other ways Tulsa is much better (bigger, more to do). I would say it is a good start and well on its way to becoming a great little downtown if all of the planned projects get built soon enough.

I think many other rival cities have a higher percentage of people supporting downtown compared to Tulsa where the vast majority of people staying in their pockets of town. Furthermore, Cherry St, Brookside, Whittier, Riverview/Uptown, Pearl and now Renaissance all need support (and mostly get decent support) from the community, especially midtown which would otherwise support downtown a little better. I think Tulsa's overall midtown is better than a lot of similar sized cities but the downtown is slightly less utilized and was destroyed during the 80s/90s so it has been like starting over with no previously established districts.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 31, 2016, 01:52:36 pm
Easy to say, but not so easy to do.  Single family dwellings and duplexes are covered by the International Residential Code.  Triplexes are covered by the more stringent International Building Code.  Egress and fire rated separations between dwelling units isn't as simple as adding a wall with a door on each floor parallel to the stairs.

Obviously not. No one said it was that simple. I specifically said "potentially" and it would be tough. With the elevator plus stairs (and perhaps a fire escape added to back), there are potential solutions for multiple exits. Still could potentially be converted to triplex. Obviously the architect et al would have to look at it.

A duplex would be easier (especially with parking) and you may only need a total of $4k/month in rent to break even so $2.5-3k/mo. for 2-floor condo and $1-1.5k/mo. for 1-floor studio and it could work better than trying to find someone to rent for $4k+ a month.  Maybe renting commercially is the answer but parking could be tough.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on August 31, 2016, 01:52:37 pm
So, you don't interpret "there isn't even sheetrock up" as "drywall is installed, taped and mudded, but not painted yet."
 

Do you just get off on stalking my posts then making subtle jackass comments?  This isn’t the first time, it’s as if you feel a need to challenge me or my comments no matter the topic.

I was going by the text story posted on Channel 6, and made the assumption of what we called “unfinished walls” when I worked in construction.  Technically, I guess an unfinished wall could be one that hasn’t even been framed for that matter.  I did not re-watch the video to see that she was saying there were places lacking sheetrock.

Onward and upward:

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.

You’d still have an insane cost per square foot though which might even rival Westervelt’s brutalist disaster.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 02:09:26 pm

Do you just get off on stalking my posts then making subtle jackass comments?


No.  

There was a reason I posted my comment about the lack of drywall in some areas.  It was based on Meagan Farley's Channel 6 report from yesterday, which I linked.

Less than ten minutes after I posted my comment about the drywall, you posted a reply, quoting mine, with a different interpretation.

Interpret as you wish.  I have no idea what the state of the drywall is inside those units.  I haven't looked inside for months.  It could be as Meagan Farley said.  It could be as you said.  It could be something else.

I'm trying to throw out a few ideas so Yvonne can sell or lease her huge townhouses.

----------

P.S.  I don't stalk anyone's posts on the TN Forum, except PonderInc's.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on August 31, 2016, 03:10:03 pm
I lived in the Brady District for awhile with no parking spot which is way more crowded than the East Village.  Even during First Friday Art Crawl + Drillers + Tulsa Tough you could find parking pretty easy if you went a few blocks down the street. 

I don't think it would be hard to rent these if say, you got a discount for parking on the street.  I can't imagine street parking currently being difficult there at any time if you know how to parallel park (there are whole streets that are completely vacant nearby).  And if Santa Fe Square and the Boxyard and all that stuff really takes off and parking ever does get a little bit challenging, then that will be an awesome spot to live and people will just deal with parking a block of two away.  Walking a block or two to your car is pretty par for the course in an urban neighborhood, plus the people attracted to living there just might be the kind of people who most "get it" and are willing to trade driveways for walkability. 

I haven't had a reserved parking spot since 2013 and never had a real issue except once getting towed for unknowingly parking on the route of the Pride Parade. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on August 31, 2016, 08:07:52 pm


With the elevator plus stairs (and perhaps a fire escape added to back), there are potential solutions for multiple exits. Still could potentially be converted to triplex.


Each unit could potentially be converted to a triplex, I suppose.  But johrasephoenix was wondering if the units could be commercially viable as triplexes.  In my opinion, the difficulties/expenses involved in converting to triplexes would negate any chance of commercial viability.

Elevators are not considered as exits, for a variety of reasons.  Regardless, adding elevators will increase costs, making almost any option less viable.

In my opinion, there is no market in Tulsa for Urban 8, so Yvonne needs to get creative about how the project can be re-branded and re-marketed, using most of what has already been built.  Solid walls parallel to the stairs would block natural light from the front of the units, resulting in less desirable/leasable/sellable interiors.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on September 01, 2016, 09:19:06 am
I lived in the Brady District for awhile with no parking spot which is way more crowded than the East Village.  Even during First Friday Art Crawl + Drillers + Tulsa Tough you could find parking pretty easy if you went a few blocks down the street. 

I don't think it would be hard to rent these if say, you got a discount for parking on the street.  I can't imagine street parking currently being difficult there at any time if you know how to parallel park (there are whole streets that are completely vacant nearby).  And if Santa Fe Square and the Boxyard and all that stuff really takes off and parking ever does get a little bit challenging, then that will be an awesome spot to live and people will just deal with parking a block of two away.  Walking a block or two to your car is pretty par for the course in an urban neighborhood, plus the people attracted to living there just might be the kind of people who most "get it" and are willing to trade driveways for walkability. 

I haven't had a reserved parking spot since 2013 and never had a real issue except once getting towed for unknowingly parking on the route of the Pride Parade. 

Each unit has an oversized 2-car garage, so parking would not seem to be an issue.  http://urban8tulsa.com/





Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on September 01, 2016, 09:26:01 am
Interesting to note that the Zestimate is $350k & $391k for the 2 price options ($580k & $690k respectively).

$350-380K finished out would seem like a reasonable price and would be attractive to a decent number of buyers.  When The Edge fills up and if Santa Fe Square happens in the next 2-3 years, this neighborhood will be pretty lively and a buyer would have gotten in on the ground floor with a pretty good purchase.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 01, 2016, 09:27:36 am
Each unit has an oversized 2-car garage, so parking would not seem to be an issue.  http://urban8tulsa.com/






Wow!   I had not seen the plans before...those are truly atrocious as living space designs.  But I am sure someone will like them!

Elevator would be cool toy to have....!!




Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: rebound on September 01, 2016, 09:53:05 am

Wow!   I had not seen the plans before...those are truly atrocious as living space designs.  But I am sure someone will like them!

Elevator would be cool toy to have....!!

I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 01, 2016, 10:07:59 am
They look awesome to me. The garage and storage space. The rooftop terrace (particularly if you can put a grill and hot tub up there). The open 2nd floor. The penthouse area for whatever you wanted to do. 3rd floor options.  Balcony after balcony. If there was a small green patch ("English garden") in the back it'd be just about perfect IMHO.

One major modification I would have to make is to make the windows the type of glass that can go dark/tinted/fogged with the push of a button. That's a lot of apartment dwellers looking straight into your full glass bedroom. 

Also, the small detail that it's well out of my price range.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on September 01, 2016, 10:28:47 am
I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 

Yes, this seems like a pretty common set up for a 3-story townhouse.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2016, 10:38:23 am
$350-380K finished out would seem like a reasonable price and would be attractive to a decent number of buyers.  When The Edge fills up and if Santa Fe Square happens in the next 2-3 years, this neighborhood will be pretty lively and a buyer would have gotten in on the ground floor with a pretty good purchase.

Of course it would be a good purchase!  That’s about $100/ft.  Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s a possibility due to land costs downtown to do new construction for that amount.  I’m not really sure it’s possible to do $100/ft. once you count in the land cost anywhere in the city proper.  As my wife is an insurance agent, I am aware that typical replacement value for a residential structure in midtown Tulsa is about $100/ft.

Unfortunately, it would appear the developer and bank would take one heck of a loss at that.  If the place is truly still a blank slate and interior walls have not been constructed, it is possible it could be sub-divided.  $250,000 for an 800 to 1000 ft. loft would be more within reach for the average urbanite than $850,000 is for 3400 or so feet if the potential buyer could swallow the fact they were making a poor investment at $250/ft.

She might be able to dig herself out of the hole if she turned them into apartment flats and rented them for $1000 to $1500/month as corporate rentals- if each unit could be broken into three 800-1000 ft. units.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to have been one consistent rub on condo developments: In many cases, first buyers end up paying more than the secondary market will eventually bear.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 01, 2016, 11:38:52 am
Converting from detached single family units to triplexes would be problematic for a number of reasons.

1. Fire rated separations between floors/apartments.
2. Stairs and windows are already in place.  Natural light from the front windows would be blocked by walling off the existing stair.
3. Kitchens.
4. Bathrooms.
5. Accessibility.

I'm not saying that the Urban 8 couldn't potentially become Urban 24, but I doubt if Yvonne could make the conversion viable, financially.

She might be able to lease the units out to groups of people who don't mind walking up and down stairs (I'm thinking younger people who might want to live downtown, but it could be older folks, too, I guess).  She might be able to find some people interested in leasing and keep herself solvent long enough for market conditions to change -- maybe...

But right now, there seems to be zero demand and a supply of eight units.

Also -- DTowner, rebound, myself, others: We've been calling these "townhouses."  Urban 8's website calls them "townhomes."  They really aren't typical 3-story townhouses or rowhouses.  They're 4-story, detached, single-family dwellings.  Typical townhouses and rowhouses often share at least one wall with another unit, but not always.  In a typical townhouse or rowhouse, the stair is located along a sidewall, not across the front. 



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2016, 01:23:49 pm
Converting from detached single family units to triplexes would be problematic for a number of reasons.

1. Fire rated separations between floors/apartments.
2. Stairs and windows are already in place.  Natural light from the front windows would be blocked by walling off the existing stair.
3. Kitchens.
4. Bathrooms.
5. Accessibility.

I'm not saying that the Urban 8 couldn't potentially become Urban 24, but I doubt if Yvonne could make the conversion viable, financially.

She might be able to lease the units out to groups of people who don't mind walking up and down stairs (I'm thinking younger people who might want to live downtown, but it could be older folks, too, I guess).  She might be able to find some people interested in leasing and keep herself solvent long enough for market conditions to change -- maybe...

But right now, there seems to be zero demand and a supply of eight units. 



If not for the fire separation issues here’s a thought:

It could be awkward, but bear with me:

You could simply install shades to be drawn when you want your privacy along the stair cases, which some people might do anyhow in a full unit.

Many suburban apartment complexes are all stick construction without concrete floors between levels, what would they use for a fire rated separation?  Like a fire-rated sheetrock?

There again, let’s say she’s into the bank for $5 mil or so, so renting out 24 units at around $1500 apiece still might not cover her debt service.

I always love speculating on someone else’s property!  ;D


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 01, 2016, 01:34:30 pm

Not stalking your post, but I happened to be editing my previous reply while you were quoting it and posting this:


Many suburban apartment complexes are all stick construction without concrete floors between levels, what would they use for a fire rated separation?  Like a fire-rated sheetrock?


Yes.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2016, 02:07:25 pm
Not stalking your post, but I happened to be editing my previous reply while you were quoting it and posting this:

Yes.


Most definitely stalking your post, so basically, use fire-rated sheetrock and technically you could sub-divide the floor plates?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 01, 2016, 03:08:21 pm
I've stayed in a couple of VRBOs, one in Washington DC and on in San Francisco, that had layouts almost exactly like this (both row houses).  Was actually a pretty good layout. 


You, CF, and DTowner all seem to like that design - 3 out of 4 likes!  That's why we have such variety across the board for housing.  The reasons you all seem to like are the parts of it that I do like.  Yours is as a temporary vacation visitation place - one of these in St. Thomas, another in Belize, and I would be a happy camper!  Use it a couple months a year, then rent it out the rest of the time!  Others like the view, the separation between private areas and more public areas, etc.  Also, there is the 'new and exciting' component - it is something new for Tulsa area.

And CF wants LCD windows!  So do I...!!
https://www.glass-apps.com/


My dislike stems from some of those same features for long term use as in permanent full time dwelling.  First, all the different levels.  With optional elevator, it would very much better.  Convenience to me means keeping the separation of areas, while maintaining quick and easy access to all the areas - 10 steps (or less) puts me into another zone.  Stairways don't make for "quick and easy"....   Cleaning/maintenance requires either duplicate infrastructure on each floor or hauling stuff from floor to floor...vacuum, mop, etc.  I know - hire a maid, but it would be kind of tacky to make him/her do all that.  And the huge waste of conditioned, property taxed space just for stairways!!  5' wide, by about 15' length per stairway!  And elevator!  Talking several hundred square feet out of the 3,400.

There are comments about fire blocking - can use the sheet rock - 5/8" is a commercial fire rating thickness.  Another thing that is tremendous, and while it adds some to cost, it is VERY cost effective for what you gain in fire protection, soundproofing, and insulation value.  Roxul brand name.  Rockwool.  Made from basalt and metal slag.  Using proper installation methods, can get fire ratings between floors of 1.5 hours and more fairly easily.  Except for the stairways.  Maybe use a fire door and a stairwell configuration...?  Takes away from the open plan.



The finishes are very nice.  Love the light wood floors.  Would probably want the ceilings to be higher - 9 ft minimum!  10 ft better!! I have already planned to implement some of the ideas they use going forward - will be putting sprinklers into my house - exceptional idea that should be required by code for residential.   

The kitchen needs more storage!!





Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 01, 2016, 07:56:22 pm


Most definitely stalking your post, so basically, use fire-rated sheetrock and technically you could sub-divide the floor plates?


It probably could be done, but probably wouldn't be worth the effort and expense, given everything that's already in place.  

There are various fire-resistance ratings for different types of wall, floor, and ceiling assemblies.  The City has adopted the International Building Code (IBC) with modifications.  Without going through the IBC, I think anything more than a single-family residence (because it's four stories tall) will be problematic.  With three-story units, the code requirements wouldn't be as strict.  But the Urban 8 development is four stories.

Using an online loan payment calculator, I plugged in $5 million at 3.5% for 30 years.  The calculator says the payment would be $22,453.23 per month.  $22,453.23 divided by eight units is $2,800 per month for each unit (about 82 cents per square foot per month, based on a $625,000 average loan per unit).  

If four people shared a unit, then the "rent" per person would be $700 per month, just to cover debt service as described above.  I don't think it would take much effort to create four bedrooms in each unit, if everyone wanted his or her own bedroom.  Or, a couple could share the master suite:
(http://urban8tulsa.com/images/img_2095_7_9_fused.jpg?crc=3793470823)     (http://urban8tulsa.com/images/12.jpg?crc=20631615)  

Three options are shown for the third floor build-out, on Urban 8's website (http://urban8tulsa.com/).  The plumbing waste and vent lines might be in place already.  If so, I'd leave most or all of the piping as it is, and customize the floor plan to create three or four bedrooms and three bathrooms.

The penthouse could be used as another makeshift "bedroom" by a single person or a couple:
(http://urban8tulsa.com/images/16.jpg?crc=507516160)  

That would lower the average monthly "rent" per person to $560 or $467.  The four to six occupants would have to work out the parking situation.

Yvonne might not be able to find people willing to purchase right now, but she might be willing to find some willing to lease.
    


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on September 01, 2016, 11:24:02 pm
I don't know Yvonne and wish her no ill will but.....

I do have smile a bit that there is apparently a limit that people will pay for a place to live.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on September 01, 2016, 11:42:53 pm
I always love speculating on someone else’s property!  ;D

It's even more fun using someone else's money.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on September 01, 2016, 11:49:55 pm
Typical townhouses and rowhouses often share at least one wall with another unit, but not always.  In a typical townhouse or rowhouse, the stair is located along a sidewall, not across the front. 

I have always though of a "townhouse" as being at least a duplex with at least one shared wall.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on September 02, 2016, 08:43:56 am
It probably could be done, but probably wouldn't be worth the effort and expense, given everything that's already in place.  

There are various fire-resistance ratings for different types of wall, floor, and ceiling assemblies.  The City has adopted the International Building Code (IBC) with modifications.  Without going through the IBC, I think anything more than a single-family residence (because it's four stories tall) will be problematic.  With three-story units, the code requirements wouldn't be as strict.  But the Urban 8 development is four stories.

Using an online loan payment calculator, I plugged in $5 million at 3.5% for 30 years.  The calculator says the payment would be $22,453.23 per month.  $22,453.23 divided by eight units is $2,800 per month for each unit (about 82 cents per square foot per month, based on a $625,000 average loan per unit).  

If four people shared a unit, then the "rent" per person would be $700 per month, just to cover debt service as described above.  I don't think it would take much effort to create four bedrooms in each unit, if everyone wanted his or her own bedroom.  Or, a couple could share the master suite:
(http://urban8tulsa.com/images/img_2095_7_9_fused.jpg?crc=3793470823)     (http://urban8tulsa.com/images/12.jpg?crc=20631615)  

Three options are shown for the third floor build-out, on Urban 8's website (http://urban8tulsa.com/).  The plumbing waste and vent lines might be in place already.  If so, I'd leave most or all of the piping as it is, and customize the floor plan to create three or four bedrooms and three bathrooms.

The penthouse could be used as another makeshift "bedroom" by a single person or a couple:
(http://urban8tulsa.com/images/16.jpg?crc=507516160)  

That would lower the average monthly "rent" per person to $560 or $467.  The four to six occupants would have to work out the parking situation.

Yvonne might not be able to find people willing to purchase right now, but she might be willing to find some willing to lease.
    

Very well-reasoned math, assuming she could actually get first mortgage type terms on a construction/development loan.  I was going on the assumption of it being a slightly higher rate and shorter term, likely with a balloon payment which would tend to make sense if you were anticipating all these units selling off in x-months before or after completion.

I wish LandArch would weigh in, I think he’s the one who does development economics for a living.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 02, 2016, 12:38:48 pm


I have always thought of a "townhouse" as being at least a duplex with at least one shared wall.


That's how "townhouse" is defined in Tulsa's current zoning code, Section 35.010-C: 

Quote

35.010-C Townhouse

A townhouse building is a principal residential building that is occupied by multiple
dwelling units, each located on its own lot with a common or abutting wall along the
dwelling units’ shared lot lines. Each dwelling unit has its own external entrance. There
are two types of townhouses: 2-unit townhouses and 3+-unit townhouses.

1. A two-unit townhouse is a townhouse building occupied by only 2 dwelling units.

2. A 3+-unit townhouse is a townhouse building occupied by 3 or more dwelling
units.


In Tulsa's building code, the 2015 International Building Code, a "townhouse" is defined in Chapter 2:

Quote

TOWNHOUSE. A single-family dwelling unit constructed in a group of three or more attached units in which each unit extends from the foundation to roof and with open space on at least two sides.


For the sake of discussion, I've called the Urban 8 units "townhouses" on this thread.  So have others.  Urban 8's website describes them as "townhomes."  That's okay, but they wouldn't be considered "townhouses" according to Tulsa's zoning code or building code.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 02, 2016, 01:17:08 pm

Very well-reasoned math, assuming she could actually get first mortgage type terms on a construction/development loan.  I was going on the assumption of it being a slightly higher rate and shorter term, likely with a balloon payment which would tend to make sense if you were anticipating all these units selling off in x-months before or after completion.


I know, and I think you're correct about the loan terms.  I took your assumption of $5 million, then found a simple calculator online, although I think there are others that will calculate balloon payments.  Just to get the conversation going, I was lazy and put in the basic parameters I have for my own home mortgage, which is significantly less than $5 million.  Also, I didn't consider vacancy rates or any rent escalation.

I think that Yvonne's intent was to sell the units, not own them herself and lease them.  However, with no buyers, I'm wondering if groups of people might be willing to rent them for awhile.


I wish LandArch would weigh in, I think he’s the one who does development economics for a living.


I'd like for him to weigh in ... if he wishes -- I always enjoy reading his thoughts/ideas.  But when he does take the time to post on development threads here, he gets ripped to shreds, called arrogant, or whatever, even when he lays out tons of facts, illustrations, and examples to back up his position.  

One particular discussion about dwellings/parking lots/commercial development along M.B. Cherry Street comes to mind.  LandArchPoke was correct.  Houses came first.  Then the dwellings were removed for commercial buildings, usually built right up to the property line along 15th with parking on the street at the curb.  Then more dwellings were removed to satisfy off-street parking "needs" or "requirements" -- a trend that is continuing with developments such a Roosevelt's, for example.  Some posters won't accept facts, however.  They'd rather name-call and argue.

There is much collective knowledge and talent here on the forum, but I wouldn't blame LandArchPoke if he never made another post.  It takes time to weigh in, and perhaps he doesn't want to waste his energies trying to explain the very simplest of urban design and development principles to other posters who are bent on personally attacking him, no matter what.
  


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Red Arrow on September 02, 2016, 03:16:57 pm
That's how "townhouse" is defined in Tulsa's current zoning code, Section 35.010-C: 

This isn't a biggie for me.  I was just throwing in my 2˘ worth.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 02, 2016, 03:45:28 pm

It's not a biggie for me either.  The Urban 8 units are similar to true townhouses.  The primary differences are the sidewall windows and the stair positioned across the front windows.
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on September 06, 2016, 04:45:13 pm

For other posters who might not realize there is more than one thread about Urban 8...

See also:

"(Project) Urban 8" started by carltonplace on Apr 12, 2012 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18940.0)

TulsaNow's Urban 8 project page (http://tulsanow.org/index.php/urban-8/), which describes the development as "complete" in March 2016.  However, it didn't appear to be complete when I peeked inside some of the units over Labor Day weekend 2016.
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 07, 2016, 07:14:40 am
Well, there was one active thread and one thread about the project that went dormant 3 months ago. Now there are two active threads...

The project is completed. The final build out is at the design of the final purchaser. That was one of the selling points of the project.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: BKDotCom on September 07, 2016, 08:39:13 am
That was one of the selling points of the project.

One man's selling-point is another man's turn off


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 07, 2016, 02:03:11 pm
One man's selling-point is another man's turn off

For sure. I was merely trying to communicate that it was intentional and that the project is "done" from the developers current perspective.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on February 21, 2017, 06:07:41 pm


One man's selling-point is another man's turn off.


Someone must have been turned on enough about the southwest unit to purchase it.  Yesterday, I noticed a "SOLD" sign in front.

Several other units have "For Sale" signs.  As far as I know, six or seven of the eight units are not finished as most buyers would understand "finished" homes to be (with completed wiring, drywall, etc.).



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on February 21, 2017, 06:47:10 pm
They should be modern triple deckers, but if they're going to be giant homes....

Just spinning my wheels, but I bet they would have sold better if a) they lopped a floor off and used the money saved to make them brick-and-masonry instead of that austere Empire-Strikes-Back black, and b) they were pushed back from the street just a few feet so they didn't feel so imposing (really - I think the first floor is the parking bay?).  You could give them a nice little setback with a porch stoop like a traditional row house in Philadelphia/Brooklyn/Baltimore/Boston.  On the weekends homeowners could chill on their stoop drinking a 40 of Olde English or whatever it is that rich folks do.    

I still think they would have done gangbusters as a series of small apartment buildings.  Same with Davenport Lofts...make those swag apartments instead of $800,000 condos and you have yourself a viable product.  


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: johrasephoenix on February 21, 2017, 06:49:27 pm
Also the product may have been just a few years too early.  I'm betting Blue Dome / East Village will be able to command much higher values as Santa Fe Square, Boxyard, PAC grocery store, etc + sweet stuff in the Brady keep coming online.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on February 21, 2017, 07:18:52 pm


... I bet they would have sold better if ... they lopped a floor off and used the money saved to make them brick-and-masonry instead of that austere Empire-Strikes-Back black ...


The Urban 8 buildings don't look black to me.
 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 24, 2017, 09:23:07 am
Minor update from TDA Executive Report for February, posted today:

A. Tulsa Urban Development Group, LLC, d/b/a Urban8
North side of East 3rd Street South, between South Greenwood Avenue and South
Kenosha Street
8 Single Family Dwellings
TDA Land Disposition
• The Redeveloper continues to work on task to complete the project
• Unit No. 2 is currently undergoing an interior buildout
• The walls are ready to be painted
• Cabinets are being delivered
• All doors and trim are being installed
• Wood floors have also been installed throughout
• The geo-thermo heat exchange equipment has been delivered, installed and
currently operational in units No. 2 and No. 7

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Executive-Director-Report-10.pdf


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on February 24, 2017, 04:13:25 pm


Minor update from TDA Executive Report for February, posted today:

A. Tulsa Urban Development Group, LLC, d/b/a Urban8
North side of East 3rd Street South, between South Greenwood Avenue and South
Kenosha Street
8 Single Family Dwellings
TDA Land Disposition
• The Redeveloper continues to work on task to complete the project
• Unit No. 2 is currently undergoing an interior buildout
• The walls are ready to be painted
• Cabinets are being delivered
• All doors and trim are being installed
• Wood floors have also been installed throughout
• The geo-thermo heat exchange equipment has been delivered, installed and
currently operational in units No. 2 and No. 7

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Executive-Director-Report-10.pdf


Thanks for the "minor" update, cannon_fodder.

The update from TDA confirms what I've been posting for months:  The project is not complete.  The project is not done.  The project is not finished yet.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on February 24, 2017, 09:07:16 pm
Thanks for the "minor" update, cannon_fodder.

The update from TDA confirms what I've been posting for months:  The project is not complete.  The project is not done.  The project is not finished yet.



You are being a bit vague, Boo.  Do you mean the project has not reached its climax?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Bamboo World on February 27, 2017, 04:18:42 pm


You are being a bit vague, Boo.  Do you mean the project has not reached its climax?


What I mean is that (to me) the project does not seem to be complete, although TulsaNow posted a completion date of March 2016:  http://tulsanow.org/index.php/urban-8/ (http://tulsanow.org/index.php/urban-8/)

I don't understand the purpose of prematurely throwing out and posting an early completion date for a project which hasn't been completed yet.  Six of the eight units seem to be on the market for purchase, but have never sold.  Seven of the eight units seem to be unoccupied.

Also, (to me) the Urban 8 buildings do not appear to be an austere Empire-Strikes-Back black.  The Urban 8 buildings do not appear (to me) to be any austere color at all, and definitely not black.

In my opinion, the Urban 8 units are overpriced for what they are now (or what they might be when they're finished), at that particular location.  For the asking price, there apparently isn't demand for that type of housing in downtown Tulsa.  That's why Urban 8 has sat idle and vacant for so long, while the nearby Boxyard project has been completed and has been filling up with tenants.  
  


Title: Urban 8
Post by: AdamsHall on July 18, 2017, 05:15:31 pm
It appears 3 units have sold now, not including the model unit on the East end.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: swake on July 18, 2017, 05:50:25 pm
It appears 3 units have sold now, not including the model unit on the East end.

Wow, that's great news.

Any idea how much they sold for?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: AdamsHall on July 19, 2017, 10:30:23 am
Any idea how much they sold for?

No clue.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 19, 2017, 10:40:26 am
According to the Assessors site, the one on the east end sold in April of 2016 for $900,000.00.

http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R42310920145070&return=close (http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R42310920145070&return=close)

Also, according to Trulia, two other units have sold for ~$600k.

https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/36.155187658607,36.156772916349,-95.984823976765,-95.982678209553_xy/19_zm/ (https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/36.155187658607,36.156772916349,-95.984823976765,-95.982678209553_xy/19_zm/)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 19, 2017, 11:27:20 am
According to the Assessors site, the one on the east end sold in April of 2016 for $900,000.00.

http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R42310920145070&return=close (http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R42310920145070&return=close)

Also, according to Trulia, two other units have sold for ~$600k.

https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/36.155187658607,36.156772916349,-95.984823976765,-95.982678209553_xy/19_zm/ (https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/36.155187658607,36.156772916349,-95.984823976765,-95.982678209553_xy/19_zm/)

$600k sounds like an amazing deal, but from walking by them, looking inside, and hearing from someone with knowledge of these, the interiors were not completed so after everything is done, it should cost the new owners closer to $650-700k or so, depending on how nice they want them. Still a great deal when you consider everything planned for the area, but hard to imagine they made much money on this development.

The east unit that sold for $900k was sold to the original developer,  Yvonne Hovell.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 19, 2017, 11:35:20 am
$600k sounds like an amazing deal, but from walking by them, looking inside, and hearing from someone with knowledge of these, the interiors were not completed so after everything is done, it should cost the new owners closer to $650-700k or so, depending on how nice they want them. Still a great deal when you consider everything planned for the area, but hard to imagine they made much money on this development.

The east unit that sold for $900k was sold to the original developer,  Yvonne Hovell.

Didn't know that about the east unit. Admittedly I did not reread the thread, I might have found that. Time will tell, but you could be very right on the price for the other two. It seems like that area is doing well, and paying slightly above market may payoff in the long run. If it was me, I would treaty it as a buy and hold, and see what the market is like at least five years down the road.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 19, 2017, 04:03:42 pm
Didn't know that about the east unit. Admittedly I did not reread the thread, I might have found that. Time will tell, but you could be very right on the price for the other two. It seems like that area is doing well, and paying slightly above market may payoff in the long run. If it was me, I would treaty it as a buy and hold, and see what the market is like at least five years down the road.


I see by your avatar picture that you have been "Photobucketed"....   Happening a lot the last couple of weeks.

Anyone know of a GOOD photo sharing site - either free or reasonable cost?



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Ibanez on July 19, 2017, 04:45:13 pm

I see by your avatar picture that you have been "Photobucketed"....   Happening a lot the last couple of weeks.

Anyone know of a GOOD photo sharing site - either free or reasonable cost?



If you just want to share the occasional pic http://imgur.com/



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 20, 2017, 09:40:17 am

I see by your avatar picture that you have been "Photobucketed"....   Happening a lot the last couple of weeks.

Anyone know of a GOOD photo sharing site - either free or reasonable cost?



Yeah, it really sucks on an automotive forum I'm a member of. So many lost the links to photos showing issues to take care of things and we all refuse to pay the $400.00/yr ransom.

I went with smugmug. Very reasonable several tiers and easy to use. I can post pictures in different sizes to fit the particular forum without having to alter the original, it has different levels of right click security for sharing albums, from no security to all you can do is view the photos.

https://www.smugmug.com/ (https://www.smugmug.com/)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 20, 2017, 10:54:38 am
Yeah, it really sucks on an automotive forum I'm a member of. So many lost the links to photos showing issues to take care of things and we all refuse to pay the $400.00/yr ransom.

I went with smugmug. Very reasonable several tiers and easy to use. I can post pictures in different sizes to fit the particular forum without having to alter the original, it has different levels of right click security for sharing albums, from no security to all you can do is view the photos.

https://www.smugmug.com/ (https://www.smugmug.com/)


Smugmug is the one I keep drifting back to every time I search.  Guess I will just go ahead and join.

Forum I go to has the same problem - most of the pics are just gone.  For some reason, mine are still there, but I am expecting them to disappear any day!



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Townsend on July 20, 2017, 11:09:44 am

Smugmug is the one I keep drifting back to every time I search. 


Speaking of drift...


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 20, 2017, 11:33:52 am
Speaking of drift...


Yeah!   Good catch!



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: DTowner on July 20, 2017, 12:25:25 pm
$600k sounds like an amazing deal, but from walking by them, looking inside, and hearing from someone with knowledge of these, the interiors were not completed so after everything is done, it should cost the new owners closer to $650-700k or so, depending on how nice they want them. Still a great deal when you consider everything planned for the area, but hard to imagine they made much money on this development.

Maybe, but it’s hard to know the fair market value for these units because they are the only market for this type of housing downtown.  If they are being sold as unfinished as I understand them to be, I think most purchasers are looking easily at another $100K to get them finished anywhere near as originally planned.  Prospective purchasers of these should evaluate it as buying a place to live, not making a real estate investment (generally good advice for every home purchaser).  If Santa Fe Square turns out something like the original concept and the Nordam site becomes something cool, that will be great for this area.  However, even if all that falls into place, I would consider it a win to break even in 5-7 years at the current price.




Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 21, 2017, 08:08:18 am
Maybe, but it’s hard to know the fair market value for these units because they are the only market for this type of housing downtown. 

Looking at the prices of the urban homes built on the south side of downtown at 22nd & Main ($500-$900k), these seem priced pretty well, even unfurnished. Sure there has been extremely limited market for this up to this point and maybe they should have waited a year or two (they started way back in 2014!), but now the vicinity looks much nicer with plans to get even better so it should get easier and more desirable.


If they are being sold as unfinished as I understand them to be, I think most purchasers are looking easily at another $100K to get them finished anywhere near as originally planned. 

That is what I had said in the comment you quoted to reply to  :P :

hearing from someone with knowledge of these, the interiors were not completed so after everything is done, it should cost the new owners closer to $650-700k or so, depending on how nice they want them.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dsjeffries on July 21, 2017, 09:56:16 am
Unfinished and unfurnished are different.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 21, 2017, 12:43:21 pm
Unfinished and unfurnished are different.

I'm glad you know there's a difference between those words. Now where did anyone say anything about unfurnished?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 21, 2017, 03:43:21 pm
I'm glad you know there's a difference between those words. Now where did anyone say anything about unfurnished?


You did.


Looking at the prices of the urban homes built on the south side of downtown at 22nd & Main ($500-$900k), these seem priced pretty well, even unfurnished. Sure there has been extremely limited market for this up to this point and maybe they should have waited a year or two (they started way back in 2014!), but now the vicinity looks much nicer with plans to get even better so it should get easier and more desirable.


That is what I had said in the comment you quoted to reply to  :P :




Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on July 23, 2017, 12:46:00 pm

You did.




That is called a typo. And thanks to similar spellings, autocorrect input that. Obviously I meant unfinished as I said in my previous post about it. Thanks for your constructive feedback!


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: MostSeriousness on July 24, 2017, 02:50:43 pm
Someone got tipped off!

http://www.newson6.com/story/35955731/tulsa-downtown-townhouses-starting-to-sell


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: AdamsHall on July 24, 2017, 05:37:03 pm
So the story indicates that 5 of 8 are under contract right now.  Also, the "development office" just sold for 1 million.  I assume this is the building on the corner with the mural, maybe 264 S Kenosha Ave.?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 24, 2017, 07:29:44 pm
That is called a typo. And thanks to similar spellings, autocorrect input that. Obviously I meant unfinished as I said in my previous post about it. Thanks for your constructive feedback!

You asked, I answered. Sad thing about forums, you can't tell when someone is being rhetorical, and someone is being funny. Wasn't trying to be a donkey, just replying to your comment. If I ticked you off, oh well, life goes on.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: MostSeriousness on July 25, 2017, 06:40:25 am
So the story indicates that 5 of 8 are under contract right now.  Also, the "development office" just sold for 1 million.  I assume this is the building on the corner with the mural, maybe 264 S Kenosha Ave.?

That's what I was thinking. I wonder if it was another developer that's officing out of there, or will be. Or if it is a completely new tenant/business


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 19, 2018, 01:33:59 pm
Bringing back another shameful zombie post in light of someone posting on the Davenport Lofts. There's still 5 of these Urban 8 units for sale on Zillow. All for $795k (previously some were $580-$695k). That is pretty crazy that 4.5 years after construction started, they are mostly vacant and unfinished. They sold 2... in 5+ years (considering they did try to presell).

It's good they weren't finished up front because these were designed so long ago that they'd just about need a remodel/redesign to keep up with the times at this point. They still look really nice, but not quite up to the spec of similarly priced homes selling near Cherry Street  that might be aiming for a very similar market (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2210-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131523_zpid/?fullpage=true (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2210-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131523_zpid/?fullpage=true), https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2336-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131524_zpid/?fullpage=true (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2336-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131524_zpid/?fullpage=true) - these are also struggling to sell at such high price points!) Imagine building a place that is cutting edge and still trying to sell it half a decade later after it's no longer state of the art design that appeals to the market you're aiming for.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2018, 07:37:24 am
Bringing back another shameful zombie post in light of someone posting on the Davenport Lofts. There's still 5 of these Urban 8 units for sale on Zillow. All for $795k (previously some were $580-$695k). That is pretty crazy that 4.5 years after construction started, they are mostly vacant and unfinished. They sold 2... in 5+ years (considering they did try to presell).

It's good they weren't finished up front because these were designed so long ago that they'd just about need a remodel/redesign to keep up with the times at this point. They still look really nice, but not quite up to the spec of similarly priced homes selling near Cherry Street  that might be aiming for a very similar market (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2210-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131523_zpid/?fullpage=true (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2210-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131523_zpid/?fullpage=true), https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2336-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131524_zpid/?fullpage=true (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2336-E-17th-St-Tulsa-OK-74104/179131524_zpid/?fullpage=true) - these are also struggling to sell at such high price points!) Imagine building a place that is cutting edge and still trying to sell it half a decade later after it's no longer state of the art design that appeals to the market you're aiming for.


The whimsical vagaries of the easily bored...  with input from the marketing/sales branch of the real estate economy to get the "next big thing".  Change styles in fashion like changing clothes....   Am wondering when avocado green is coming back on appliances?   Or harvest gold...?



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2018, 08:06:53 am
Perhaps Yvonne should have stuck to selling Chryslers.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2018, 08:15:28 am

The whimsical vagaries of the easily bored...  with input from the marketing/sales branch of the real estate economy to get the "next big thing".  Change styles in fashion like changing clothes....   Am wondering when avocado green is coming back on appliances?   Or harvest gold...?



I think it's a lot more than that. This board is all about development and encouraging better city design to enrich the environment/scenery and ability to live well (and not necessarily with a car). Good interior design goes hand in hand with that and is in many ways the inside equivalent. Fortunately the demand for better-designed homes has skyrocketed so you get less of this: http://projectbritain.com/houses/img/kitchen/wood.jpg (http://projectbritain.com/houses/img/kitchen/wood.jpg) and more of this: http://bloomingcactus.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/average-cost-of-kitchen-remodel-full-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-remodeling-cost-average-kitchen-remodel-cost-kitchen-remodel-large-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-average-cost-kitchen-remodel.jpg (http://bloomingcactus.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/average-cost-of-kitchen-remodel-full-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-remodeling-cost-average-kitchen-remodel-cost-kitchen-remodel-large-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-average-cost-kitchen-remodel.jpg)

The Urban 8 were designed at a very high level and were shockingly well done when they first released renderings and then photos back in 2015/2016 with fixtures and colors that were perfect at the time. That basic interior layout will be something that works a long time. However, light fixtures, hardware and colors change more quickly. You can keep the same high-level design for 10+ years and it will still look great (and they still look awesome, much better than a typical house), but selling something to a high-end buyer will likely take a design that is extremely eye-catching and recent, not one from 4/5 years ago.

Asking a near-million-dollar home to be updated to more recent look than half a decade ago ago isn't unreasonable, especially when the market has delivered a higher level of finishes for that price range.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2018, 08:28:24 am
Perhaps Yvonne should have stuck to selling Chryslers.

She obviously has great tastes in modern urban living. Unfortunately for her the market wasn't there to support such high end design, especially not in 2015 and looks like still not today. It's like she built the perfect place for her and her budget without considering if there are 7 other Yvonnes in Tulsa.

I'm glad they take advantage of the space with 3 floors and rooftop, but they must have way overspent and then wasted 4 years of potential revenue if they would've just finished and then rented a couple out (maybe split some up into multi units). It's hard to imagine what a money pit this must be.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2018, 09:07:15 am
She obviously has great tastes in modern urban living. Unfortunately for her the market wasn't there to support such high end design, especially not in 2015 and looks like still not today. It's like she built the perfect place for her and her budget without considering if there are 7 other Yvonnes in Tulsa.

I'm glad they take advantage of the space with 3 floors and rooftop, but they must have way overspent and then wasted 4 years of potential revenue if they would've just finished and then rented a couple out (maybe split some up into multi units). It's hard to imagine what a money pit this must be.

I figured by now there would've been more transplants from the Northeast or West Coast (Thinking NYC, Boston, Seattle, SFO, or LA) used to the urban lifestyle for which this price point would have represented a real bargain in a mind used to larger market urban real estate prices.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 20, 2018, 09:48:40 am
I figured by now there would've been more transplants from the Northeast or West Coast (Thinking NYC, Boston, Seattle, SFO, or LA) used to the urban lifestyle for which this price point would have represented a real bargain in a mind used to larger market urban real estate prices.

Someone posted on this thread a while back about how for less, you can get really nice large condos in a lot of higher demand areas of larger cities. Sure, getting a stand-alone is going to be pricey in bigger cities, but comparable square-footage and interiors for much lower prices. Those cities actually have competition for urban housing. But apparently being the only one offering stand alone units downtown doesn't guarantee sales at such high prices.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Townsend on April 20, 2018, 10:37:55 am
I figured by now there would've been more transplants from the Northeast or West Coast (Thinking NYC, Boston, Seattle, SFO, or LA) used to the urban lifestyle for which this price point would have represented a real bargain in a mind used to larger market urban real estate prices.

Curious...how many of those do you think have moved to Tulsa over the last five years?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2018, 12:22:38 pm
Curious...how many of those do you think have moved to Tulsa over the last five years?

Man I have no clue.  I figured there would have to be a corporate attorney, surgeon, engineer, etc. paid handsomely to move from somewhere else every quarter or so. Or maybe they have but they want the suburban experience with big lots and space from their neighbors.

Maybe people like that are waiting for Murr Fail and the entire OK Legislature to go "bye-bye" before they would consider moving here.

I honestly have no idea how bad all the happenings in state government affect the image of Tulsa in the minds of attracting the best and brightest.  Tulsa has become somewhat more progressive thinking in terms of development and it's really a pretty good place to live for an MSA of 1 million people.  If we had not found the opportunity MC and I had been dreaming of for our respective lifetimes, we'd still be there and enjoying all Tulsa has to offer.  I will never bad mouth Tulsa except for assholic drivers.  The State Legislature is a target rich environment for my wrath though.  ;D


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: SXSW on April 23, 2018, 09:41:29 am
Curious...how many of those do you think have moved to Tulsa over the last five years?

A good amount I'm sure, but they likely aren't living downtown.  I know a couple from California that recently moved to Tulsa and bought a nice house near Philbrook, something they never could've done in CA.

I'm convinced though if you were to build a product more similar to the Central Park townhomes (2 or 3 bed brick brownstones) that were priced closer to $500k that you would see a lot demand.  I would love to see more brownstones like those built on the southern end of the East Village. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2018, 09:11:19 am
I think it's a lot more than that. This board is all about development and encouraging better city design to enrich the environment/scenery and ability to live well (and not necessarily with a car). Good interior design goes hand in hand with that and is in many ways the inside equivalent. Fortunately the demand for better-designed homes has skyrocketed so you get less of this: http://projectbritain.com/houses/img/kitchen/wood.jpg (http://projectbritain.com/houses/img/kitchen/wood.jpg) and more of this: http://bloomingcactus.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/average-cost-of-kitchen-remodel-full-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-remodeling-cost-average-kitchen-remodel-cost-kitchen-remodel-large-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-average-cost-kitchen-remodel.jpg (http://bloomingcactus.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/average-cost-of-kitchen-remodel-full-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-remodeling-cost-average-kitchen-remodel-cost-kitchen-remodel-large-size-of-kitchen-kitchen-average-cost-kitchen-remodel.jpg)

The Urban 8 were designed at a very high level and were shockingly well done when they first released renderings and then photos back in 2015/2016 with fixtures and colors that were perfect at the time. That basic interior layout will be something that works a long time. However, light fixtures, hardware and colors change more quickly. You can keep the same high-level design for 10+ years and it will still look great (and they still look awesome, much better than a typical house), but selling something to a high-end buyer will likely take a design that is extremely eye-catching and recent, not one from 4/5 years ago.

Asking a near-million-dollar home to be updated to more recent look than half a decade ago ago isn't unreasonable, especially when the market has delivered a higher level of finishes for that price range.


Edit;  I am not condemning the styles of today.  Or yesterday or tomorrow.  They will change again, soon.  And will always go full circle from time to time. 


Color and fixtures are what I was getting at...the wood tone will be back and highlighted on all the decoration shows in just a few years.  

The second pic is stark, sterile, colorless, and 'flat' looking.  I hear it described on the shows as 'modern' and 'clean'...am starting to see some 'sea mist' green and blues used in advanced kitchen designs.  Right out of 1955...

They went for "looks" with little thought to functionality in that grey kitchen.  Sink - get a double sink in farmer style.  Always more functional than single sink.  Horrible layout - even with the island - biggest work/prep space is way far away from the cook top and the stove!   And I presume the people will be shopping at least once or twice a day for food, since there is no fridge for storage.  

Black appliances were all the rage for a while...kinda still are for 'late adopters' who don't jump on the bandwagon every time it changes a little.  Then stainless was huge for quite a while.  Now we have already moved on to black stainless, according to the TV commercials.   Only a matter of time until Avocado green is back!  Then I can get a matching stove to go with the old storage refrigerator!!



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2018, 09:31:20 am
I figured by now there would've been more transplants from the Northeast or West Coast (Thinking NYC, Boston, Seattle, SFO, or LA) used to the urban lifestyle for which this price point would have represented a real bargain in a mind used to larger market urban real estate prices.


That is an ongoing occurrence.  I have worked with people doing exactly that for at least the last 30 years...and that is just when I became really aware of what was happening.

Several of them moved here for what they planned to be their last "coasting" job - coasting into retirement.  Time frame from 3 yrs to as much as 15 yrs.  (My last boss was one of those - retired and moved back home now.)

The type jobs they are - professional, management, technical, are generally better paid.  Get much bigger house here for same money.  Can sock away more for retirement, the bail.  These are also the ones who many times are propagandizing about 'cutting taxes'.  Since they have NO vested interest in what happens here either during or after their time here.  They don't have kids here so schools don't matter - "it's Oklahoma, why should I care...I won't be here...?"   Or infrastructure - "Who cares about the roads/bridges here - my car is a 'disposable' that I will replace with a good one for retirement so doesn't matter if it gets torn up some.  Just gotta last another X number of years till I go home."

Literally have said those things.  Among others.

People who came from left and right coasts or north, and returned to left/right states/areas, just outside the high rent districts where the industrial jobs were located.   Ex; came from Palo Alto, returned to Reno, NV.   Came from Indiana and Florida, returned to Roanoke, VA.  Came from Milwaukee, returned to Mequon and  Pewaukee. 

Cheap living IS the draw that we have - as long as they can keep their salaries near the outside area levels.  We don't have much else to actually cause a corporate migration here.  And the way we have been treating education and infrastructure the last 6 - 8 years, that ain't gonna change!





Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on April 24, 2018, 11:46:26 am
If I was retiring and moving to Tulsa because of the cost of living. I'm not sure I would spend $600k+ on a 3000 sq loft with no grocery store nearby. Also, one of the benefits of moving from the coasts is you can sell your $600k house and buy the same house for $300k and pocket the $300k for retirement. I know somebody who moved downtown from a $700k house in Tulsa. They laughed at the Urban 8 development cost and I would have thought they were the key demographic to move there.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on April 24, 2018, 02:01:42 pm
If I was retiring and moving to Tulsa because of the cost of living. I'm not sure I would spend $600k+ on a 3000 sq loft with no grocery store nearby. Also, one of the benefits of moving from the coasts is you can sell your $600k house and buy the same house for $300k and pocket the $300k for retirement. I know somebody who moved downtown from a $700k house in Tulsa. They laughed at the Urban 8 development cost and I would have thought they were the key demographic to move there.

Maybe that is the problem.  In Tulsa, Ok. there is no demographic which fits this development.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: joiei on April 24, 2018, 02:13:48 pm


Black appliances were all the rage for a while...kinda still are for 'late adopters' who don't jump on the bandwagon every time it changes a little.  Then stainless was huge for quite a while.  Now we have already moved on to black stainless, according to the TV commercials.   Only a matter of time until Avocado green is back!  Then I can get a matching stove to go with the old storage refrigerator!!



Don't forget the Harvest Gold of the same era and God, Please forgive us, Shag Carpets. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 24, 2018, 03:15:43 pm

Edit;  I am not condemning the styles of today.  Or yesterday or tomorrow.  They will change again, soon.  And will always go full circle from time to time. 


Color and fixtures are what I was getting at...the wood tone will be back and highlighted on all the decoration shows in just a few years.  

The second pic is stark, sterile, colorless, and 'flat' looking.  I hear it described on the shows as 'modern' and 'clean'...am starting to see some 'sea mist' green and blues used in advanced kitchen designs.  Right out of 1955...

They went for "looks" with little thought to functionality in that grey kitchen.  Sink - get a double sink in farmer style.  Always more functional than single sink.  Horrible layout - even with the island - biggest work/prep space is way far away from the cook top and the stove!   And I presume the people will be shopping at least once or twice a day for food, since there is no fridge for storage.  

Black appliances were all the rage for a while...kinda still are for 'late adopters' who don't jump on the bandwagon every time it changes a little.  Then stainless was huge for quite a while.  Now we have already moved on to black stainless, according to the TV commercials.   Only a matter of time until Avocado green is back!  Then I can get a matching stove to go with the old storage refrigerator!!



I just picked one of the first results from googling 1990s kitchen (the bad first link I sent) and modern kitchen (and picked a very plain looking modern kitchen). That modern kitchen doesn't look great to me, just typical plain middle/high builder-grade one. Maybe I should've found something more like this that is pretty common now days:
http://thedistricttable.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/magnolia-house-.jpg (http://thedistricttable.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/magnolia-house-.jpg) (Wood is and has been very popular, even in cabinets, just not the overdone 1990s oak cabinets).

Kitchens are head and shoulders better looking and better designed nowadays than they were in the 2000s, 1990s, 80s, 70s, etc... There has been a huge push to improve design, usability and aesthetics over the last 10 years. Old cabinets were terrible. New cabinets have closure assist (soft open and close), and have better utilized space and more types of spaces. Kitchens used to be a place for just preparing food, but now they're one of the main hangout/social areas and they are often the best looking room in the house.

Check out any house that has been remodeled in the last 10 years and the kitchen will likely be far better than a typical 1990s house like I'd linked to (crowded, split up, tended to be smaller).


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 24, 2018, 03:34:37 pm
Here's a typical older house kitchen:
https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS2f44yzg35uv31000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS2f44yzg35uv31000000000.jpg)

They've updated it aesthetically, but still same original design. Small, crowded, uninviting and while it may be convenient, it is made for basically 1 or 2 to use at a time. Nowadays, people pile into the kitchen, no matter how small, so it's better to be a bit larger with more usable space for dining or preparing.


Here's an updated design from just a block or two away: https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISi75wzeisdccj0000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISi75wzeisdccj0000000000.jpg)

Here's another close by that's almost the same as that first one, but they partially updated to better fit modern kitchen usage (took out wall and added island): https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS233jnohy981v0000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS233jnohy981v0000000000.jpg) I don't like the style or cabinet stain (very 1990s and ugly overall), but shows the more updated layout/design can be applied while still keeping old finishes.

The overall design of these urban 8 units is really great and convenient and keeps the kitchen as part of the "great room". That layout will be popular for a while. Regardless of exact aesthetics/hardware/colors, I'd be happy with an urban 8 kitchen or even something like this: https://houseofhargrove.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Modern-Farmhouse-Kitchens-10.jpg (https://houseofhargrove.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Modern-Farmhouse-Kitchens-10.jpg)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2018, 04:08:45 pm
Don't forget the Harvest Gold of the same era and God, Please forgive us, Shag Carpets.  



I literally just got rid of my old Harvest Gold Magic Chef range about 5 months ago, new in house in 1976!  I would not have gotten rid of it - would  have found parts to fix the oven - if not for the time pressures of Thanksgiving dinner approaching.


And the house had the original shag carpets when we moved in - it was about 4 years old at the time.  Got rid of them quickly.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 24, 2018, 04:22:13 pm
Here's a typical older house kitchen:
https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS2f44yzg35uv31000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS2f44yzg35uv31000000000.jpg)

They've updated it aesthetically, but still same original design. Small, crowded, uninviting and while it may be convenient, it is made for basically 1 or 2 to use at a time. Nowadays, people pile into the kitchen, no matter how small, so it's better to be a bit larger with more usable space for dining or preparing.


Here's an updated design from just a block or two away: https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISi75wzeisdccj0000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISi75wzeisdccj0000000000.jpg)

Here's another close by that's almost the same as that first one, but they partially updated to better fit modern kitchen usage (took out wall and added island): https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS233jnohy981v0000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/IS233jnohy981v0000000000.jpg) I don't like the style or cabinet stain (very 1990s and ugly overall), but shows the more updated layout/design can be applied while still keeping old finishes.

The overall design of these urban 8 units is really great and convenient and keeps the kitchen as part of the "great room". That layout will be popular for a while. Regardless of exact aesthetics/hardware/colors, I'd be happy with an urban 8 kitchen or even something like this: https://houseofhargrove.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Modern-Farmhouse-Kitchens-10.jpg (https://houseofhargrove.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Modern-Farmhouse-Kitchens-10.jpg)


They are all going for looks over function.  That last one didn't have a fridge again, and that may be a dishwasher one cabinet over from sink, but inconveniently distant from sink.   I like wood cabinets pretty well - tends to soften the look and make it more welcoming to me.  Am also only interested in functionality as a kitchen - the island can act as transition to the living area, but if two can't cook in it, it's a major fail to me.

White kitchens - that melamine look - are too much like my garage.  I use those same cabinets in the garage as storage shelves, but with more generic handles/knobs.  I need the brightness it brings since there are no windows.  The kitchen has windows so can put up with a little darker surface.  

One kitchen I saws and would build if I could afford it had black walnut cabinets, old decorative tin metal ceiling panels like an old saloon circa 1880, and black walnut hardwood floors, stained very dark.   Needless to say, it took a lot of lighting to make it work!  The layout was amazing and extremely well suited for both cooking and entertaining.  (I have been 'collecting' walnut lumber and trees for quite a while, so maybe will get there eventually...)




Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 24, 2018, 04:30:29 pm
Maybe that is the problem.  In Tulsa, Ok. there is no demographic which fits this development.

True.  If you live in Irvine CA  and sell  the house that you bought for $400k for $1.2 million and clear $1 million, are you going to spend $800k for a condo or $400k for a house on some land in a suburb and have $600k in the bank? (before capital gains tax on the sale of the CA house)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 25, 2018, 08:05:22 am

They are all going for looks over function.  That last one didn't have a fridge again, and that may be a dishwasher one cabinet over from sink, but inconveniently distant from sink.   I like wood cabinets pretty well - tends to soften the look and make it more welcoming to me.  Am also only interested in functionality as a kitchen - the island can act as transition to the living area, but if two can't cook in it, it's a major fail to me.

White kitchens - that melamine look - are too much like my garage.  I use those same cabinets in the garage as storage shelves, but with more generic handles/knobs.  I need the brightness it brings since there are no windows.  The kitchen has windows so can put up with a little darker surface.  

One kitchen I saws and would build if I could afford it had black walnut cabinets, old decorative tin metal ceiling panels like an old saloon circa 1880, and black walnut hardwood floors, stained very dark.   Needless to say, it took a lot of lighting to make it work!  The layout was amazing and extremely well suited for both cooking and entertaining.  (I have been 'collecting' walnut lumber and trees for quite a while, so maybe will get there eventually...)


Old kitchens are far more functionally limited (besides being ugly and poorly designed). Modern kitchen design is more about functionality for more than just 1 purpose. Still, I'd much rather cook in our updated kitchen with an island and many varied countertop spaces than in the kitchens my parents/uncles/grandparents had from earlier decades. All of them that have updated their kitchens went to large-island format and they're much more usable and functionality is much much better (and you can fit 12+ people in them comfortably when designed properly) and you can always have 3+ people cooking at same time in the newer kitchens I've been in. Old kitchens are mostly limited to 1 or 2 people.

Just because the refrigerator is not in that particular view does not mean there isn't one! You think they'd do a hundred thousand dollar+ kitchen and forget about the fridge!? ;D It's just on the wall behind photographer. Madre de dios!


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 25, 2018, 08:19:15 am
I really like that the "updated" kitchens seem to include an additional 600 square feet.  Or half a midtown home.   :)


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 25, 2018, 09:56:57 am
I really like that the "updated" kitchens seem to include an additional 600 square feet.  Or half a midtown home.   :)

Our updated midtown kitchen is pretty much taking the original footprint but lays it out in a way that the space is more accessible and opening to dining room is larger. It might be about 200 square feet larger than the original kitchen, but it's not much bigger than our first house's galley kitchen (tiny 1,000 square foot midtown cottage). It is laid out and distributed so much better so that it feels about twice as large. The old one has a very quaint cottage vibe to it which I wouldn't want to destroy. It was beautifully remodeled with original cabinets and floors.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TeeDub on April 25, 2018, 10:11:48 am

When you give up the dining room to enlarge the kitchen it also makes a subtle statement about modern families.  Why sit around and look at each other while you eat when in the real world, everyone has their face in the television or their phones?


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2018, 11:35:55 am

Just because the refrigerator is not in that particular view does not mean there isn't one! You think they'd do a hundred thousand dollar+ kitchen and forget about the fridge!? ;D It's just on the wall behind photographer. Madre de dios!



I guess I wasn't clear - can't SEE the fridge.  That means with both of those shown, it is by definition a lousy layout for a kitchen.  Fridge should be convenient to food prep area.  Those would be ideally suited to getting a Papa Murphy's and putting it in the oven.  And having everyone sit around the island watching pizza cook!

Dishwasher location still sucks....

The kitchen I am designing for the new place will accommodate 4 cooking at once, but still be convenient for 1 or 2.   And we will eat in that open area adjacent to the kitchen...previously known as a dining area.  TV will be visible/viewable.  Will be an open concept.



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 25, 2018, 01:36:30 pm
When you give up the dining room to enlarge the kitchen it also makes a subtle statement about modern families.  Why sit around and look at each other while you eat when in the real world, everyone has their face in the television or their phones?

Do modern kitchens really take away dining rooms? Most I've seen just add another dining area (the cabinet-height bar/center island). They mostly have dining areas also next to them, just less of a wall between kitchen usually. It makes it easier to interact while someone's cooking and someone else is in dining room or have people sit and hang out while waiting for food to be prepared. Pretty flexible and much more convenient than a completely separated dining room.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 25, 2018, 01:42:42 pm
When you give up the dining room to enlarge the kitchen it also makes a subtle statement about modern families.  Why sit around and look at each other while you eat when in the real world, everyone has their face in the television or their phones?

The urban 8's have a very large dining area and kitchen island with large bar/sitting area. https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISaptgj0pst0ou0000000000.jpg (https://photos.zillowstatic.com/p_f/ISaptgj0pst0ou0000000000.jpg)

It would be nice if the island went a little closer to the fridge, but overall the design of the space (and having the additional seating in kitchen) enhances and increases the options for where to sit and rest/work/eat/drink.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2018, 03:49:04 pm
Do modern kitchens really take away dining rooms? Most I've seen just add another dining area (the cabinet-height bar/center island). They mostly have dining areas also next to them, just less of a wall between kitchen usually. It makes it easier to interact while someone's cooking and someone else is in dining room or have people sit and hang out while waiting for food to be prepared. Pretty flexible and much more convenient than a completely separated dining room.


They don't take away, they just open up...a great approach for dining area - no wall and open between the two.  Some find it too informal, but are right about the flexibility and better interaction.  Exactly where I am headed.   Just have to resolve the conflict between black walnut furnishings in kitchen area and maple in dining/living area...





Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on April 26, 2018, 11:14:45 am

They don't take away, they just open up...a great approach for dining area - no wall and open between the two.  Some find it too informal, but are right about the flexibility and better interaction.  Exactly where I am headed.   Just have to resolve the conflict between black walnut furnishings in kitchen area and maple in dining/living area...



Also, modern living has become much more casual. It used to be all about keeping a formal dining area so guests don't have to see the "dirty" inner workings of a kitchen. Considering how food is more often prepared nowadays (a bit more pre-made stuff/simple mixes, less messy from-scratch cooking), kitchens typically remain reasonably clean even during parties. Also, hosts don't typically serve everyone like it used to be and basically no one hires maids to do that. So better to just show off all the items as they're being prepared/baked and show off that nice shiny kitchen while interacting with your guests/family while they wait. 


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2018, 11:19:04 am
Also, modern living has become much more casual. It used to be all about keeping a formal dining area so guests don't have to see the "dirty" inner workings of a kitchen. Considering how food is more often prepared nowadays (a bit more pre-made stuff/simple mixes, less messy from-scratch cooking), kitchens typically remain reasonably clean even during parties. Also, hosts don't typically serve everyone like it used to be and basically no one hires maids to do that. So better to just show off all the items as they're being prepared/baked and show off that nice shiny kitchen while interacting with your guests/family while they wait. 

I trash my kitchen when I cook.  I just don't invite anyone who would give a smile.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2018, 01:25:58 pm
Also, modern living has become much more casual. It used to be all about keeping a formal dining area so guests don't have to see the "dirty" inner workings of a kitchen. Considering how food is more often prepared nowadays (a bit more pre-made stuff/simple mixes, less messy from-scratch cooking), kitchens typically remain reasonably clean even during parties. Also, hosts don't typically serve everyone like it used to be and basically no one hires maids to do that. So better to just show off all the items as they're being prepared/baked and show off that nice shiny kitchen while interacting with your guests/family while they wait.  


Microwaves rule!!    

We do exactly that, but the whole kitchen/dining/living spaces are very close - whole thing is about 12' x 24' so can't get very far away from anyone while in that area.  We have had family events with up to 28 - 30 people in attendance.  Cozy...!


Ran across this for other reasons a few days ago, but the kitchen stood out as a good example of design/layout for 1 person cooking for a limited number of guests...maybe up to 5 or 6 or so...?  Well, except for the missing oven part of it.  The work flow is very good for such limited space.  At about 4:20 into the video.  (This is also design inspiration for the house, except for the tiny part of it and a loft...I hate the concept of a loft - both for the stairs and in so many cases, the limited head room - been living that dream for over 11 years and it really, really, sucks after a while - just try making the bed with only 4 feet of headroom!)   Right to left - food storage, prep area, cleanup area.  Elegant simplicity - my favorite cause!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avn7brkxmmo



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2018, 08:15:42 pm
I trash my kitchen when I cook.  I just don't invite anyone who would give a smile.

I gave a sh!t, I think I'd had enough to drink at that point I didn't care.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: Townsend on April 27, 2018, 10:47:54 am
I think I'd had enough to drink at that point I didn't care.

Same


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 02, 2018, 11:05:09 am

Microwaves rule!!    

We do exactly that, but the whole kitchen/dining/living spaces are very close - whole thing is about 12' x 24' so can't get very far away from anyone while in that area.  We have had family events with up to 28 - 30 people in attendance.  Cozy...!


Ran across this for other reasons a few days ago, but the kitchen stood out as a good example of design/layout for 1 person cooking for a limited number of guests...maybe up to 5 or 6 or so...?  Well, except for the missing oven part of it.  The work flow is very good for such limited space.  At about 4:20 into the video.  (This is also design inspiration for the house, except for the tiny part of it and a loft...I hate the concept of a loft - both for the stairs and in so many cases, the limited head room - been living that dream for over 11 years and it really, really, sucks after a while - just try making the bed with only 4 feet of headroom!)   Right to left - food storage, prep area, cleanup area.  Elegant simplicity - my favorite cause!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avn7brkxmmo



That's a gorgeous cottage! That is a good efficiently setup kitchen. Not my styling (and wish it were more old-world/lumberjack vibe to fit that cottage), but looks like a great use of limited space.


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 02, 2018, 01:38:50 pm
That's a gorgeous cottage! That is a good efficiently setup kitchen. Not my styling (and wish it were more old-world/lumberjack vibe to fit that cottage), but looks like a great use of limited space.


I could do a lot of cooking in that!! 

I especially like the "Hansel & Gretel" style - perhaps they left the oven out for a reason...to keep mean little kids from cooking them...!!??   They did kinda go 'modern' on the inside after a really great outside start.  But no matter what, stainless appliances are probably never gonna give that feel that I want and you expressed - old world lumberjack.

Am planning to make a little 'guest house' along those lines - hand split oak shingles, etc.  But no second story!  There is also one of those old fairy tales about "There was a crooked man and he went a crooked mile...".     Like this...only no pastels!

http://www.bcx.news/photos/places/themeparks/enchanted_forest/crooked_man/





 



Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 04, 2018, 08:10:08 am

I could do a lot of cooking in that!! 

I especially like the "Hansel & Gretel" style - perhaps they left the oven out for a reason...to keep mean little kids from cooking them...!!??   They did kinda go 'modern' on the inside after a really great outside start.  But no matter what, stainless appliances are probably never gonna give that feel that I want and you expressed - old world lumberjack.

Am planning to make a little 'guest house' along those lines - hand split oak shingles, etc.  But no second story!  There is also one of those old fairy tales about "There was a crooked man and he went a crooked mile...".     Like this...only no pastels!

http://www.bcx.news/photos/places/themeparks/enchanted_forest/crooked_man/



Something like this kitchen would be a great fit for the cottage in that video: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/5b/2c/f35b2c97577e7ac4e71201b9d155bfe5.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/5b/2c/f35b2c97577e7ac4e71201b9d155bfe5.jpg)

Unfortunately those ovens are so pricey, you don't even want to see the price! (Ok, $7500 for a Rayburn Oven!)

The "poor mans" retro range: https://www.discountbandit.com/home-garden/kitchen-dining/avanti-gr2414cw-model-gr2414cw-24-gas-range.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydTH75zs2gIVjIlpCh1wUwEdEAkYASABEgKOj_D_BwE (https://www.discountbandit.com/home-garden/kitchen-dining/avanti-gr2414cw-model-gr2414cw-24-gas-range.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydTH75zs2gIVjIlpCh1wUwEdEAkYASABEgKOj_D_BwE)

Or finding a neat looking old 1940s/1950s oven on Craigslist and just biting the bullet and fixing it up (which can be done for less than $500 including repairs usually).


Title: Re: Urban 8
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 04, 2018, 09:55:14 am
Something like this kitchen would be a great fit for the cottage in that video: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/5b/2c/f35b2c97577e7ac4e71201b9d155bfe5.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/5b/2c/f35b2c97577e7ac4e71201b9d155bfe5.jpg)

Unfortunately those ovens are so pricey, you don't even want to see the price! (Ok, $7500 for a Rayburn Oven!)

The "poor mans" retro range: https://www.discountbandit.com/home-garden/kitchen-dining/avanti-gr2414cw-model-gr2414cw-24-gas-range.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydTH75zs2gIVjIlpCh1wUwEdEAkYASABEgKOj_D_BwE (https://www.discountbandit.com/home-garden/kitchen-dining/avanti-gr2414cw-model-gr2414cw-24-gas-range.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydTH75zs2gIVjIlpCh1wUwEdEAkYASABEgKOj_D_BwE)

Or finding a neat looking old 1940s/1950s oven on Craigslist and just biting the bullet and fixing it up (which can be done for less than $500 including repairs usually).


That is exactly the styling I am looking for.  I have an old 1950's Royal Rose, 20" range for a special project I am working on (school bus RV conversion) that is very similar to the 2nd one.

I don't mind buying new, but would much rather buy an old one that has been re-worked.  Or I can rework.   I go to Tulsa Stove Hospital once in a while just to kinda look around.  Haven't found exactly what I want, but close!  They did have an old Ruud 'on demand' water heater - from about 1910 !   Cost more than I could work with.  Looks like an old pot bellied wood stove... dual fuel - one of our "modern" buzz words - burned wood or coal !!

Looks a lot like this, but no natural gas...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Ruud-Tankless-Water-Heater-/152957686483