The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Thoughts?

I have a few... news at 11...  ;)

http://www.news9.com/Clip/10415099/north-tulsa-grocery-store-close-doors-early


Er... uh.... no.

Technically, yes it is.  Closest grocery store by my estimation to that area is the Warehouse Market at 3rd and Lewis.  Google Maps puts that at 2.7 miles by car.  For many in that area, it might as well be 200 miles.

This should be a slam dunk location for Warehouse Market, come on WM!

Agreed.

M

Why?  Does WM like being robbed, stolen from, and torn up?

No, and that's not endemic to that area or that store. For some reason, the same people who tried to shop there are now shopping at 3rd and Lewis and Reasors at 15th and they don't get robbed, stolen from and torn up any more than usual.

What WM does do is keep shelves stocked. They have a long history of successfully running grocery stores in areas that people east of the river and south of Brookside think are dangerous.

Edit: If you doubt that, simply go to the WM at 61st and Peoria near ground zero for craziness out south. They run a good store that caters well to their demographic. I don't think Gateway had the experience. For instance, at the 61st store, I noticed that there were shopping carts throughout the nearby neighborhoods, mostly in apartments that came from WM. I was told that many of their customers don't have cars and simply walk the carts home. Rather than harass them, charge them with theft or assign security to them,  WM routinely sends a truck out to retrieve them.

Las Americas at Lewis and Admiral shaves 4 blocks off that distance.  Very good produce, meat and diary selections with all of the staple food items.  

Alberton's built a suburban store when a more compact and effecient version (like a Warehouse Market) would have made more sense for this neighborhood.  

Of course the problem is, Las Americas’ owner was the owner of this market and the allegations were he had no clue what the purchasing habits of people in this area were and didn’t keep enough of their staples in stock.

I wonder if Antonio Perez didn’t really care about this store, what he really wanted was the $2.2 million CDGB government backed low interest loan that was attached to opening the store. Where did he use the funds from that loan, at this store or at his Las Americas stores?

Might explain a lot, no?

Good riddance, it was a poorly ran store. When it was announced that this store was opening, it was exciting and I felt good about this business opening in this part of town. I decided I would go there just to see how the experience would be. I went there 3 times, and my shopping experience was worse, with each time going there. From having a hard time finding any item that you desired, rotting meat, and mis labeling items, just to name a few things. I knew this store would not last long and so did many other patrons of this store. The clientele decreased dramatically over the first month and I knew it would never rebound.

It's possible the loan proceeds were used for other purposes, although these grants usually come with a lot of strings attached.  Seems like a pretty risky proposition for a successful businessman to take.

I disagree.  The ones that do the robbing, stealing, and vandalizing, aren't the kind of people that are going to hop in a car, drive a few more miles, and do the same thing.  Instead, they'll just pick another business or house that is closer to their "central point".

As for the WM at 61st and Peoria, it's only a small percentile of "bad apples" that do business there.  They still have plenty of middle class citizens that I would imagine do their shopping there.  And while murder and drugs are rampant in that area, for whatever reason, theft and robbery have never been major issues.  I can't explain "why" that is the case.

If a store could make money there, there would be a store there.  Simple as that.  That somebody would pull out, and have to repay the city a bunch of money for pulling out, shows just how much they think a "loser" that location really is.

Wish in one hand....carp in the other....see which one gets full first!

They don’t need up-scale at Pine and Peoria.

FWIW, we have two Whole Foods, I believe a third Sprouts is being built, we have Natural Grocers, and Fresh Market.  Perry’s isn’t much of a grocery store, other than meat and meat-related items they are severely limited and their produce usually looks like WM rejects.  But...Perry’s does have the best meat counter in town.

The upscale demand is being well-met.  In the meantime, there’s a food desert in north Tulsa.

I think he probably meant Petty's Fine Foods, not Perry's Meat Market.

I guess we have different perspectives. I get real tired of those economic platitudes that the market rules and the North side isn't profitable. With that logic there would be no WalMart at Admiral and Memorial, no banks out north and no Walgreens anywhere. But maybe you live in one of those two locales? That might account for your cynicism. I spent a lot of the last two years working in those areas and talking with the locals. They like WM and WalMart, they didn't like Gateway and both areas are far from middle class.

As far as theft and robbery, though I take issue with that from my first hand accounts, I could quote Jesse James when asked why he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is". Maybe thats why most of the high profile theft and robberies are now taking place out east and southeast.

Alberton's built a nice store in north Tulsa and it didn't work.  Whe it was selling off its Tulsa stores, no one wanted it.  Homeland had a nice store at Edison and Gilcrease Road.  When Homeland went bankrupt, no one wanted this location.  The city induced a store to go into the former Albertson's with a low interest loan and it still did not make it.

I don't know about platitudes, but the common theme is north Tulsa grocery stores keep shutting down and none of the chains seem interested in moving into this underserved market.

Somehow Warehouse Market has managed to serve other lower income areas of the city no one else wants to serve.  Why Pine & Peoria is all that difficult may be a simple matter of the space being over-built (ergo the rent is too high) for the volume you can turn to make a profit with the other issues which seem to be endemic to the immediate surroundings.

I thought he was just trolling and not worthy of a response...

You don't see QuikTrip's in the area for a reason. That's a business reality, even if it rubs us the wrong way.

Those are better stores too because they all carry award winning 3 Guys Smokin' sauces and rubs. ;-)

Someone mentioned that that area was not a hotbed for crime.  According to the 2014 tulsa police heat map for burglary, it's a hotbed.  Larceny, assault and rape are also popular activities in that area.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5569/14762729386_8c6160929f_m_d.jpg)

Only, no one mentioned that. Just pointed out that currently East and Southeast seem to be hot as well.

Only, there are few, or no QT's in OKC either. Nor Dallas, nor Minneapolis. And there are no Love's in Broken Arrow! Those are business realities. Unless you know one of the owners or have inside info as to why there is no QT at Pine and Peoria or anywhere north of Admiral, those are just observations.

As a resident of Tulsa north (Reservoir Hill) we refused to visit Gateway Market.  My wife and I tried to shop their when it first opened.  We gave it several months but between the grocery bill being 10-15% higher, the lack of selection and the overall filth of the store and parking lot we stopped.  I tried to continue buying the emergency produce or other item there, but in the last year it became unbearable.  The Family Dollar at Pine & MLK and the Braum's at Gilcrease Road & 412 now fill the last minute gap with the grocery stores in midtown providing the primary grocery.

The store was WAY too big.  For anyone to be successful it has to be split up.  Perez tried to cordon off about 1/3 of the store but it still was too big and made the place look worse.  The city deserves better.

Hmm..Pine & Mingo would be considered north of Admiral.  Don't get your Tulsa geographical info from Sauer, please...  ;D

Chet Cadiuex personally told me in 2007 they would not open in areas they believed to be unprofitable or have potential for shrink and/or employee/customer safety issues.  They have an existing store at Lewis & 46th St N, he did not see them opening any other stores in North Tulsa.

There is also a store on the NW corner of Admiral and Delaware and a newer 3rd Gen store on N Gilcrease Rd at 412/51.  They, along with most people, consider the "danger zone" of North Tulsa to be Memorial to LL Tisdale and Admiral to Owasso.  Pine & Mingo serves the employees at the airport and surrounding industry.

This QT has been out North for years.

QuikTrip
4545 N Lewis Ave
46th St N
Tulsa - North, OK 74110

Also. I believe the whole 7 Eleven in OKC and QT in Tulsa. Stems from a Gentleman's agreement between owners to not infringe on one another dominance in the areas. I may be wrong in what I have heard.

There’s only about 114 in the DFW metro.  There’s also six QT's north of Admiral, including one at *GASP* 46th Noff & Lewis.

edit: Just for fun here’s where all QT is these days:

Georgia: Atlanta (130 stores)
Texas: Dallas/Fort Worth (114 stores)
Arizona: Phoenix (88 stores)
Arizona: Tucson (17 stores)
Kansas: Wichita (38 stores)
Kansas/Missouri: Kansas City (82 stores)
Missouri/Illinois: St. Louis (75 stores)
Oklahoma: Tulsa (70 stores)
Iowa: Des Moines (24 stores)
Nebraska: Omaha (12 stores)
South Carolina: Greenville/Spartanburg (24 stores)
North and South Carolina: Charlotte (26 stores)

You may or may not be wrong but that is the gist of it.  I've never heard any thing to prove or disprove this but it does sound plausible.

Ditto.  There's simply no market reason for that to not be the case.

Edit:  PS.  QuikTrip's store locator (http://www.quiktrip.com/Locations) sucks

I always heard it was Love's and QT....maybe they got a 3-way going....?

Love's and QT directly compete in some cities. It's the owner of QT and 7-11 in Oklahoma City, which is not the same company as the national 7-11 chain. I heard they went to college together.

An obviously more powerful post when it comes from the mouth. Still, he makes a judgement call. And I am more nervous at the QT on 15th and Denver and 11th and Utica than I am stopping in Turley.  I just get tired of the old saw that North Tulsa is just too crime ridden and poor to be considered for decent retailing. Its generalizing that people over there are somehow less civilized than the rest of the city.  Yet, Dollar General, Braums, McDonalds, anything Fried Chicken related all survive. Family Mkt has a unit at 65th street north that does well.

Gilcrease Hills and Reservoir Hill alone should have been enough to sustain a well run mkt. Throw in Brady and Owen Park and you have to wonder if its something else at play.

I thought of that one but didn't consider it "classic" North Tulsa. More like East or Airport, but yes, I should have mentioned it and one at 46th street North and Lewis that I don't remember seeing.

Guilty as charged. I was trying to make the point that observations are not necessarily based on profit/loss business decisions. When someone says that its obvious that since there is no QT at Pine and Peoria it must be judged a business bad location, that is a false assumption.

Glad QT is doing well. I am a big customer.

Owasso the city? That's a pretty large area to consider as the "danger zone". Includes a lot of large rural areas as well.

There are some areas I drove through over there that are plain and simple badass. The locals don't care for them either. Lots of boarded up homes and shopping centers. I'm thinking ground zero over there is north and west of McClain, around 46th and MLK and of course anywhere near subsidized apartment complexes. But there are lots of average hoods sprinkled throughout North Tulsa particularly west of Memorial to Harvard and north of Admiral to Pine. Isn't Reservoir Hill east of Tisdale? That was my impression anyway and I did grow up here and worked the area the last couple years.

Unfortunately, those pockets of misery and crime take their toll on the nicer parts of north Tulsa when it comes to amenities.  I absolutely refuse to ride the bike trail from OSU Tulsa to Skiatook ever again.  It has nothing to do with perceived danger, it’s the broken glass and other debris deliberately strewn on the trail and young thugs hanging out in the middle of the trail who refuse to move when you approach them.  We do nice things for north Tulsa like parks and rec centers and eventually they are plagued by graffiti and become gang hang-outs.  Again, reality not perception.

I feel far safer riding Cincinnati or Peoria where at least there’s enough visibility people won’t mess with you.  Or they figure that middle-aged white boy in spandex on a bicycle riding up MLK must be crazy, so don’t mess with him.

I used to come in from Owasso on that trail all the time, (Go Across 66th N and hit it just West of Peoria and then on into Tulsa)  and I had to quit as well.  Had two flats on one trip due to the glass everywhere.   And for me, it WAS about perceived danger.  Especially that stretch from 36thN to 51stN.  The trees aren't even cut back away from the trail, and I had a few too many situations where I felt a little too hung out there alone.  There was, I think, an attempted rape of a female cyclist 2-3 years ago.  In a group it's probably fine, but I won't ride it alone again.

I was meaning "most people" by the statement taking north Tulsa to Owasso.

Reservoir Hill is the hill that rises on the east side of the Tisdale Pkwy between Pine & Apache.  The neighborhood association boundaries only include roughly the houses from Main west to the Tisdale and Denver Ave/Denver Blvd north to Zion.

Reservoir Hill seems to be in your danger zone. So is the Brady District.

For most of Tulsa it is.  When we moved to the hill in 2009 we invited a few friends over for dinner.  One our friends asked if her purse was safe in her car while parked in my driveway.  They haven't been invited back.

Here is what OKC is doing to eliminate one of their food deserts.

Northeast Oklahoma City area declared blighted
by Steve Lackmeyer Modified: July 30, 2014 at 4:00 pm •  Published: July 30, 2014

(http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/w620-b47fb2c9923dfd5b4997bb6116696e67.jpg)

A large portion of northeast Oklahoma City centered at NE 23 and Martin Luther King Avenue was declared “blighted” Tuesday by the Oklahoma City Council after the panel received a new study showing the area is struggling with high unemployment and crime, plummeting home ownership, unsafe conditions and crumbling buildings and infrastructure.

The blight declaration allows the Urban Renewal Authority to pursue a redevelopment plan for an area bounded by Phillips Avenue, Sooner Road, NE 36 and NE 20. City officials also have indicated their focus will be on commercial properties, not residential, and will concentrate on a one-half mile area surrounding NE 23, N Kelley Avenue, N Martin Luther King Avenue, and Interstate 35.

Assistant Planning Director Ian Colgan told the city council the Northeast Renaissance Renewal Area study looked at whether the area met four conditions for blight — dilapidation, arrested economic development, unsafe conditions, deterioration of site or other improvements. In all four cases, the area was found to be blighted.

Population, Colgan said, dropped by 11.1 percent between 1990 and 2000 and by 4.8 percent between 2001 and 2010. Citywide population, meanwhile, grew 13.8 percent during the first 10 years and 14.6 precent during the second decade surveyed.

“In total, about 2,500 people left the study area in those two decades,” Colgan said.

The study also revealed that in 1990, the area still enjoyed a high percentage of homeownership, with 66 percent owning homes in the study area compared to 59 percent citywide. But in the past 20 years, homeownership dropped to 50 percent for the study area, while citywide homeownership increased to 61 percent.

The study also showed 139 vacant and abandoned buildings per square mile in the study area, compared to 19 citywide.

“This shows people are leaving— a decline in investment,” Colgan said. “Decline in taxable market value has been stark.”

Unemployment for the area in 2012 averaged 11.6 percent, almost twice the citywide unemployment rate of 6.6 percent the same year. The city’s own investment also was shown to be lacking, with 30 percent of streets and infrastructure in poor shape.

Homicide, rape, robbery, assault, weapons, burglary, narcotics crimes were all rated higher than the rest of the city. The area is littered with contaminated properties and illegal dumping sites.

The study is being done as the area’s Ward 7 councilman, John Pettis, is leading the charge to change the area’s direction. The city, along with The Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, is working on creation of a tax increment financing district to rebuild the area and draw new development.

Those efforts include King’s Crossing at NE 23 and Martin Luther King Avenue — a $30 million development led by the owners of Buy For Less that will include a new 58,000-square-foot Uptown Market, other new retail and space for offices, a school and housing. Construction on the store is expected to start this winter.

http://newsok.com/northeast-oklahoma-city-area-declared-blighted/article/5102325

You notice the story talks about the area's councilman taking steps to get something done?

"Paging Jack Henderson, Paging Jack Henderson...”

Until north Tulsa will elect someone with a different paradigm than “South Tulsa is holding us down” they are going to be stuck with limited vision for their district.  Somebody younger with a more dynamic view of what can be instead of how they are being shafted is what District 1 needs.  Sorry, I’m just not a Henderson fan.

I was thinking about this issue last night and what kind of unconventional ideas would get a source of good staple food products to the area of Pine & Peoria.  Some ideas were farmers markets several days per week(granted the prices lot of producers charge for the produce at Cherry St. and other places would put a strain on budgets).  I also thought about a food pantry or neighborhood grocery subsidized and run by some of the larger churches in the area as an outreach mission or even as a cooperative effort with the Community Food Bank which is only about five or six blocks away from the former Gateway Market.  See if the landlord would split up the existing space to make it much more manageable and the rent more realistic for a venture like this.

I believe it was First Presbyterian which tried this concept on a small scale near the projects between Jackson and SW Blvd.  Not sure if it’s still there or not.  IIRC, they were also presenting cooking and nutrition classes to show how easy it is to work with whole ingredients instead of relying on boxed goods for people’s diets.

There has to be a way for the community to come together and make this a reality.  All it takes is an idea and the right people to make it happen.  Any other thoughts?

You will also notice, despite the parking lot across the street, that the development is pedestrian/transit friendly, which includes being mixed use with grocery store and services and other things all easily reachable.

The area in Tulsa has some of the lowest car ownership in the city and most need of being able to use transportation.  But the recent new developments including the grocery store, strip mall, health services etc. have been spread out and made difficult to access by those who use transit and are then in the area left either trekking blocks to other destinations in a pedestrian unfriendly environment, or left waiting again for transit to take them to the next destination, or a friend waiting on them to finish one errand then drive them to the next.  

People who need to use transit or take a taxi, etc. to get to a destination really need to be able to do more than just one thing when they get there.  It would be so much easier for people to say get off the bus and conveniently walk to multiple things like, a grocery store, post office, bank, hair salon, health/community service, childcare, clothing store, etc.  Than have to find ways to schedule to go to each one of them separately.  All of those things are in the area, but are not easy to get to from each other, and most of those things are new, thus having had the opportunity to be built properly, and many of them pushed for by and had assistance from the city and community, with apparently no thought or concern for how people were going to get to them and use them.  The city approved and encouraged spread out, suburban auto centric style developments, in an area that I believe the new comprehensive plan, and common sense, says would be better served with a more urban, main street style development.

  Was listening to someone who worked at a clinic in another city and they mentioned how they had MUCH higher compliance rates for treatments, and showing up for appointments when they switched to a program where they had all the doctors in one place at the same building doing, diabetes testing, nutritional lessons and examples, eye exams, etc. all in the same day.  Rather than people making an appointment do do one thing one day and trying to find transport to that appointment, then the other service another day, and so on, the ability to do more with one trip made it so much easier for them and thus again they were far more likely to avail themselves of the services.  Imagine if they could have done even more.  Imagine if the new Morton Healthcare clinic (I think that's the new one over by there) and the Grocery Store, the bank, the new strip mall, etc. were all right on that same corner, up to the sidewalk, parking behind, in a beautiful, pedestrian friendly environment.  One stop, one shop, jobs, services, restaurants, etc. place.  Not to mention creating an attractive Brookside/Cherry Street type place that northsiders could be proud of.  It would have also helped make transit easier and quicker and more cost efficient for the city and it's users to not have stuff spread out everywhere.

So much money, time and hard work to get all those things in that area but basically a mess because of thoughtless design.

I've been told by a female clerk, engaged to one of my cousins, who has had to work shifts there that it is terribly frightening at night and the store suffers from more theft than other QT locations.

Does QT not employ any kind of security? Just the free coffee for cops concept?

Other than cameras and usually four people working each shift who aren't allowed to try and stop theft. No they don't as far as I know.
Anyone for some free beer?

Good thoughts and I agree with you about Henderson. However, there is a dearth of leadership in the area and he may be all they've got right now. He also tends to be re-elected on the victim platform so as a politician he will keep doing what works. I was surprised to see him endorse the water in the river proposals. Strange since there seems little to be gained for that area.

I was curious about that grocery in between Brightwaters and Riverview. Nice little operation and a good prototype. The key to the black community in North Tulsa is the churches and the schools. Get them involved and they will fill that leadership void.

I have observed that as well. For "most people" anything north of 44 is sketchy, north of 21st is curious, and north of Admiral is danger.

When I worked at the Office Depot on 15th at Lewis, new employees were warned to lock valuables in their cars and beware of homeless in the area. Never walk alone. They seemed oblivious that they were in one of the best demographic areas of the city filled with doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs and yes, street operators.

I can't imagine a QT with more fights, hoodlums, grifters, panhandlers, loiterers or shop lifters than 15th and Denver.

Henderson is all they believe they have right now.  I don’t understand how people are inspired by a message of defeat over one of hope and vision, but I digress.

At any rate I drove by the small market near the 23rd St. projects and it’s still there and still open.  It is called Harvest Market.  I did not have time to stop in and chat with the operators to see how it has been received by the community, but IIRC, it’s been there at least five or six years.  I do seem to recall they said they would not carry high shrinkage items like tobacco, beer (I wouldn’t expect a church outreach to carry that stuff anyhow) or candy.  They also only accept EBT or cash.  That cuts your cost of doing business by 2.5 to 3% right there.  I’m curious what debit and credit card utilization was at the former Gateway and Albertson’s.  I’m guessing not as high as other grocery stores around town.

Maybe it’s time I quit talking about the problem and start working on a solution.  No idea why this strikes a chord with me, it just does.  Anyone connected to the outreach ministries of any of the larger churches in the area?

When noodling around the internet on food desert issues, I came across a story from a couple of years ago about a couple starting a mobile food store that visits north Tulsa neighborhoods - kind of like the book mobile concept.  Interestingly, today is another story on this enterprise.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ginnie-graham-smaller-is-better-when-it-comes-to-feeding/article_6bb40859-67b3-5b5e-b60b-05ded4250b88.html

I think the gist of this article is right - the Albertson’s store was wrong for the area.  Too big and too dependent on people driving there from a wide-spread area.  Instead, north Tulsa needs a number of smaller neighborhood food stores scattered throughout neighborhoods so that people without or with limited transportation options are much closer to the stores and the stores are more a part of the local community (I think “north Tulsa” gets used frequently in a very generic way to lump a lot of very different and distinct neighborhoods together that should not be).  Of course, use-based zoning (queue The Artist) and the competitive economics of the grocery business did away with that model many years ago. 

Hopefully city officials and north Tulsa leaders will rethink their approach to this issue and get away from trying to force a south Tulsa suburban type development like the Albertson’s store and consider the realities of what is needed and what will work in these various north Tulsa communities. 

As for Henderson, when looking at the food desert issue, I came across a 2012 article from The Huffington Post about north Tulsa.  In it, some residents explicitly blamed the Tulsa race riot for the lack of a grocery store today -  never mind the numerous stores than have come and gone in the intervening years.  I think Henderson unfortunately reflects that too-widely held victimhood mentality when it comes to north Tulsa issues. 

Neighbor for Neighbor has had a food distribution presence in north Tulsa since the 60's - friends and I drove trucks for them in high school to donated food pickup locations.  The problems with an outreach mission or cooperative effort are massive... remember the Angel Food mission that was here then gone a few years ago??  We experienced their work from both sides....  and now they are gone.

If there is no "CEO" type like Rev Dan Allen, or a much larger organization like Salvation Army, it is very difficult to sustain for long time.  Places like that, and Community Food Bank, are in "fire fighting" mode...it's emergency room style food provisioning.  What this would need is a profitable entity for the next tier up in economic level that could maintain itself.  

A cooperative could be a great format to use.  The existing ones seem to be more high end oriented, like a CSA thing (community supported agriculture).  Can good food go hand in hand with low prices?  Might be a difficult task.  Maybe it could work if get neighborhood participation - like a real coop - perhaps in a Habitat for Humanity thought process for a grocery store - active participation of the people involved.  Credit Union??  Coop members participate in operation of their store, and get access to that store.  Active members (sweep the floors, wash the windows, paint the store, replace light bulbs, gather grocery carts, security guards, electrical, plumbing, mechanical....there are thousands of ways to be active participant) with membership card get a discount like so many stores have now, while non-active customers pay the the regular retail...   Profits obviously go into the ongoing operations, but perhaps like a credit union, lower costs are the "dividend" enjoyed by members.  If could work with place like Costco, when they get to town....or maybe even WalMart (who knows...it could happen) - since none of them want to go to the area, perhaps the place could get in on the buying power of those big guys just for this little local market thing.  If could get Costco or WM buying power for cost of food, prices could remain reasonable for the locals.  Get the owner of the building to sell it to the co-op - if not that building, another one.    Can a 501-X be a "stock" corporation?  Maybe a new form of non-profit is needed to have members.  (Sounds like something Jim Inhofe would jump on right away....LOL!  Sorry....couldn't resist...)

So maybe take some of the parts from NFN, Salvation Army, Community Food Bank, CSA, and roll them all together into a store that has to make it's own way with a little help from it's friends.....

Just throwing some "brainstorming" points out there as food for thought.....  


http://danallencenter.org/index.php?id=projects

Thank you for posting this story from today's TW.  I was just about to.  Some futurists people believe the big box concept is dying.  Its extinction is more rapid in urban and depressed areas but they believe the big box is past its prime in suburbia. 

In my opinion north Tulsa needs the same thing downtown needs, the corner market.  A smaller store is easier to open, easier to manage and easier to control your inventory walking out the door.

All really good points, H.  Angel Food had issues dating back a few years due to some financial irregularities in the management of the non-profit.  I know GUTS Church does a food ministry as I had an unemployed neighbor who used it.  Far as I know they got day old bread, items close to expiration or just over, and bruised, but not rotted produce from local grocers. At least I believe that’s the angle.  It’s incredible how much perfectly good nutrition goes to waste because it’s a day or two out of date in a sealed package or because it doesn’t look as pretty because it has a bruise or two.

I do believe the Scott Smith involved with the mobile market was the same guy who operated Blue Jackalope Market in the Brady Heights neighborhood.

I notice a sidebar to the article posted by DTowner that there’s movement in the local community to come up with smaller markets.  I like that angle as it could encourage more entrepreneurship in an area desperately in need of it:

We had to partake of the Angel Food system for a while a few years ago...edible, decent food.

Massive amount of food waste in this country - probably 'cause it's so cheap.  I buy baked goods intentionally from the 'day old store' when I can.  When Wonder bread was still here, that's where we got a lot of the stuff for NFN (long time ago).


Transportation is something we have beat to death here, but that is a huge issue that just shows how bad we need more capacity!  WalMart has a policy of charging higher prices in the poorer areas they are in specifically because they have more of a captive audience - the residents don't have the transportation available that gives them the option to go to another area!!  May be "good" economics, but it is morally evil...!

Maybe we should introduce them to google...?

Do you think it’s purely malicious pricing or simply having to charge higher prices due to shrinkage which seems to be higher in lower income areas?

A few years ago on a thread about the renovation of what is now the Campbell Hotel on 11th St. it was pointed out there was a Safeway at one end of the original structure.  I think it was Michael Bates who posted a listing from a 1957 Tulsa phone book and there were at least 10-15 Safeway stores around the city and many mom and pop operations as well.  At that time, a two car family was more uncommon so there would be full service groceries within a reasonable walk from any neighborhood.  Two of the last neighborhood grocers I can think of were Yeakleys (sp?) on Cherry St. and I believe it was H & H at 33rd W. Ave & I-44.

Of course, as the city became more suburban and we became more car dependent, the neighborhood grocery was replaced by the convenience store.  Less emphasis on fresh products more emphasis on all sorts of unhealthy crap.  Interesting how the neighborhood grocery was replaced by a complete antithesis.

I absolutely agree that a return of the corner market would substantially eliminate the food desert problem and bring  some needed vitality to these neighborhoods.  I didn't post it above because my post was running long, but I remember that the older parts of the town I grew up in Missouri had all of these little markets literally on the corner every few blocks.  Even when I was young, many had already closed or had become more like convenience stores, but the notion of these food markets tucked into residential neighborhoods always made sense to me.

Without diving into a welfare debate, I think the need-based food distribution networks and systems are a different issue from the food desert issue.  There are a lot of people across north Tulsa with the financial means to buy food, they just don't have the place in which to do it.

Pretty much illegal with the current zoning. And the current Mayor and most on the city council want to keep it that way.

We studied the concept of poor urban area pricing in college 4 decades ago. The reason is not shrinkage, its merely "because we can". There is less competition in those underserved markets so no real reason to price competitively. Same reason Petty's used to be so high compared to Safeway or why a gallon of gas is cheaper at a QT location with competition nearby. It created a lot of controversy and even though those stores were inherently more profitable because of the lower rents, captive audiences and lack of competition, most chains yielded to the pressure and either left or adjusted pricing.

I love the idea of getting multiple small grocery store locations throughout that area.

I agree absolutely and completely - that's what I was trying to get at talking about how this is a level (or two or three or more) above the food bank scenario....it's not an emergency food issue like the food bank is.  It's an availability issue.  It's the need for access to what we had when I was growing up - living part time in Kansas, and Iowa.  In both places there were the small "Mom and Pop" stores within walking distance....two blocks in both cases.

Fewer shops - one - with a longer distance - but still walking distance - is what Gateway seemed to provide.  (Talking from no experience with them - never went there.)  Seems like they were the "oasis" if you will, in that desert... I think there could be a good market opportunity there with a community participation element (the co-op scenario).

Definitely won't work as a "welfare" thing - we have multitude of cases where a group swoops in, gonna change the world, starts up/sets up/builds/does stuff...then something happens and it all fizzles out.  Must be an internally driven event from the neighborhood(s) to make it work.  "Seed" capital is probably required - perhaps from outside, perhaps from some type of 'subscription' basis in the area, but must be something that is mostly sourced from the area. 

Lots of different kinds of examples of this approach - some I mentioned before - credit unions, VVEC - Verdigris Valley Electric Cooperative, the REC efforts from last century, Community Supported Agriculture systems.  HOA's - Home Owner Associations are a kind of variation on the theme - instead of groceries, they keep up common areas, provide for upkeep of infrastructure like pools, parks, gates at the entrance, etc.  Groups of people working together for a common interest.  Grocery co-ops exist, it's just that most of them I have seen/heard about are very upscale, trendy, organic, faddish food suppliers.  This needs good groceries, good selections, at reasonable prices, with people involved who have a vested interest in it's success.  And if there were a way to develop a relationship with the big guys who won't put a place there, but like to brag about "giving back to the community" - well what better opportunity than getting involved with this type of enterprise - get some PR with no actual monetary outlay!   Not 'donations', just let the co-op share the existing supply chain.  If North Tulsa Grocery Co-op (NTGC - just a name for me to reference easily) could place a fulfillment order the same way a WalMart store does - pay the same price as an internal store - WalMart still makes the same money on the internal transfer as they would from one of their stores - except that is isn't "funny money" within divisions, it's cash coming in from the NTGC.  WalMart gets actual revenue, albeit at a slightly reduced margin, NTGC members get the benefit in the area, and charges a regular retail to non-members.  HAVE to show a member card or you don't get the discount.  Maybe limit membership to a walking radius?  If lot's of people want to come in from outside, then find out where they are coming from - may need to start another branch in another under-served area.

WalMart STILL gets bragging rights to "millions of dollars" back to the community - with no cash outlay!!   Or maybe Costco, if WM doesn't have that kind of vision....

If a person has a vested interest - as a member/owner - then they tend to take care of that interest.  More people might watch out and be concerned about 'shrinkage', since that would drop very quickly to the bottom line of the money it costs them.  As a membership situation, perhaps people shoplifting are banned for life....?  Lawyers amongst us - wouldn't that fall under the "right to refuse service" rules?

Where is Sam Walton when you need him?

Or George Kaiser?  I bet he could put up a little seed money and this thing would take off.  He might even get a return on the investment....which actually might not be what would interest him...maybe he needs the deductions more than the revenue...  ??



Just more brainstorming thoughts..... alternate paths/modes of operation.... or maybe just an herbal induced pipe dream fantasy??

Absolutely not!  At least not in every case - I have two specific locations, one in OK, and one in a state east of here where the local WalMart is more than 10 miles from another WalMart.  Both towns are lower economically than the closest next store.  Both towns have very low crime rates of all kinds including shoplifting.  Both charge higher prices than that next nearest store!  Consistently, day in, day out for decades!

And they have captive audiences.

And the produce in one of them particularly, is always inferior to the store that charges less, 14 miles away.  Well, with WM, that is really parsing it finely, I know....none of them have great produce...  But you get the idea.

Bring it to Tulsa...well, that may be more of a factor, but I got a feeling that would be more smoke screen than reality....  there are limited number I shop at in town and I can see pennies difference from time to time, but generally not enough to intrude to far into my world.

One I would go to in KS with grandfather - he had some issues with walking - so would get in his '55 Buick Special, start it up, and drive at 12 mph all the way to the little corner market 2 blocks away....  always a grand adventure!

These places always had the wooden screen door with the metal band across the middle (Bubble-Up soda on this one) that would make the most satisfying bang when you went inside and let it go!!  Wood floors that would creak as you walked over them!  Just like the old Warehouse Market at 11th and Elgin!!  And the Hunter ceiling fans rotating slowly above you.  Surrounded on all sides by houses.  The building was still there until about 5 years ago....they needed a parking lot, I guess!  Wow!  I just had a thought - they are going all "big city" like Tulsa - making parking lots where there used to be character!!

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/310818811754008229/

Riffing on the thread title.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eabefjsJsAQ[/youtube]

You know, that almost sounds like the sort of community initiative the KFF likes.

It would be interesting to compare prices at the Admiral and Memorial WalMart and the one at 111th and Memorial to see if there’s any pricing differences.

I went in for a fishing license this year, 111th and Memorial.  Only reason I've been in a Walmart for quite some time.  Still full of "people of Walmart".

On a side note, if you walk into a Walmart with khakis and a blue collared shirt, you may be asked by an older gentleman for help in the electronics department.

I have had several people ask me for help in Walmart!!  Guess I look like a greeter....

And yeah, I helped them if I knew where it was....

Of course, when I moved back to Tulsa in 1994, I had the opportunity to buy a lifetime license for $100.  I should have done it; I don't believe they offer them anymore.  It would have been a combo fishing/hunting license.

Lesson learned: Don't go to WalMart wearing Khakis and a blue collared shirt.
 
 :D

Sorry, when I hear khaki these days, this is all that comes to mind:

(http://media.propertycasualty360.com/propertycasualty360/article/2012/10/24/state%20farm%20jake.jpg)

“She sounds hideous!"

You should be able to still get one...just more than $100.  Am getting ready to get mine soon...but since I am so old it is only about $30 combined....  I buy a regular license - hunting and fishing - every year, even if I don't get the chance to go, for the one simple fact - this is where the wildlife department gets most of its money and I support their work 100%!!  There is no entity in this country that does more on a broader basis for wildlife in general, than the state wildlife departments!!  If one has concerns about wildlife and habitat and renewal of wildlife populations, there is NO better leverage of one's support than to buy a combo license - even if you don't hunt and fish!  

I also occasionally buy the state and federal migratory fowl stamps.... love the pretty pictures!!

wow, lifetime combo license is now $725.  I'll pass I think.   I might however get the $225 lifetime fishing license (I do more of that anyway).

When the entire cost of an item is covered by a third party you don't care what it costs.  When it is coming from your pocket you care.   And, if the buyer doesn't care what is costs what is the sellers incentive to keep the cost low?

If you're on a food assistance program that pays for certain items in your grocery cart regardless of their costs why would you shop around?  More importantly, as the seller of those items why wouldn't wring as much profit as you could out of them?

Gateway routinely sold a gallon of milk a full $1-1.50 more than a Braum's or even QT.

True.

Local co-op....

Doesn’t the SNAP card have a finite monthly limit?  I’d think that would make someone pretty budget conscious, but then again, I’ve never been in that position where someone else was picking up the tab on my groceries in my adult life.

Lucky you!  Never had to deal with a minimum wage job!!

Had several in my lifetime.  I never tried to support a family on one, that’s not why they exist.

Yes, but whatever is left over carries over.

You could get a part-time minimum wage job in addition to your day job.  Then you could claim to be supporting yourself and MC while working at a minimum wage job.
 
 ;D

Lucky you!



Actually, that isn't why they exist...they exist to try to ensure that people don't get even more hosed by the John Pickle's of this world.....no matter what the age of that person.

Damn, great idea!  I could pull the pity card all the time around my liberal leaning friends.

I don't have a problem with a store in an area with little or no competition charging a higher price than in a highly competitive market  The owner who pushes the margins too high will create an incentive to get some competitors.  Realistically, the small independent cormer markets discussed above will always charge more than the big chain grocery stores and WM because of the disparity of buying power.

As for SNAP, given the capped monthly benefits, recipeients have a huge incentive to cut coupons, be bargain shoppers and do whatever it takes to stretch their food dollars - in the same way generations of college kids have eaten Ramen noodles.  Just because some individuals make poor decisions does not mean we should mandate what a store owner charges.

I can't be part of this conversation as it has progressed. Some good ideas and motivations, but too many erroneous assumptions and will take too much precious time to address.

My feeling is that Tulsa, all four of its geographical segments, will never face its sex, class, age and race biases. They are historical, political and institutionalized. Therefore, we will always be a second city without much of a clue. That is why we have such slow growth as Artist has pointed out.

I'm sure you guys will figure it out!

Don’t be hung up on the problem or perceived problem.  Contribute to the solution, Aqua!

So, what did I miss?
Ooops.     :-[

I get frustrated at the minimum wage debate because we seem to enjoy making policies that further marginalize some reasonably hardworking folks who are dangerously close to functioning on the margins of society already.

Meanwhile, back to Gateway... there's a Sav-A-Lot about a mile directly east of there... my closest traditional grocery store is about three miles away... I cringe when headlines flash that "North Tulsa's only grocery store" is closing ... http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/north-tulsas-only-grocery-store-gateway-market-closing-down-not-paying-the-bills-says-manager

The problem is this:  You have a nice suburban style strip mall at the corner of Pine & Peoria in a city that's absolutely filled with suburban style strip malls.

It's been a couple of years since I shopped at that store, but I remember it was huge and looked like one half of it was a dollar store and the other half a Las Americas... there are other places on my way to/from work that are far better and more convenient... and I think there are many people in that neighborhood that travel to work in east/south/midtown Tulsa who'd rather shop at Reasors or Dollar Tree or the smaller Las Americas on 3rd Street on the way home than frequent an empty looking super-dooper market closer to home.  I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I found myself over at the Librarium on south Denver and walked around thinking how dinky that space looked when "back-in-the-day" it was an honest to goodness "supermarket."

I think the term "food desert" gets overused in a situation that looks to my untrained eye less about meeting needs and more about placating egos.

If you think a grocery store belongs on that corner... heck... give me an Aldi in a smaller space in the same shopping center-- I'd be a regular customer... and turn that huge cavern of a super-dooper market into a community center and/or a basketball court.

I'm sure that as soon as white, mid-town, south and southeast Tulsa figures out that everything is their fault that everything will be OK.
 :(

I live in Bixby so I'm OK.

I get frustrated with the concept that people on the edge of society have no responsibility to learn a skill that will make them more valuable (higher wages) to society.

Oh, puuullllleeeezzzzeeeeee.... you are way to old to not know better than that!!

This is the best I could find:

(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/5c/8a/18/5c8a183ce169f33fd0c6d4daa633fe21.jpg)

I've been following this thread, as it seems that this is an underserved area of Tulsa and trying to understand why other grocers have and do survive in areas similar and worse than this area in Tulsa. In the Phoenix area and the LA areas most of these stores are similar to Warehouse Market in size and selection of goods, and the biggest thing seems to be they are supported by a regional chain. In Phoenix, in the lower income areas there is Food City which is a part of Basha's Grocery Stores. For the most part they cater to the areas served and while some have pharmacies in the store, they don't carry the items that would be loss leaders. (No beer, alcohol, and limited tobacco) The fortunate thing is the public transportation is quite good in these areas, and it seems that most of the crime is not related to the stores. Even CVS, Walgreens, Circle K, 7-11, AM-PM, and the independent owned C-Stores, while having issues, have not turned tail and run.


Does Reasor's have a small market store model that could be adapted to fit this market area? I get the whole natural food, organic market model, and I know about WM (Warehouse Market, I used to shop the one on N. Sheridan), but is WM not willing to create a store here? I understand the fact that the old Albertson's was not what was needed, and the building is just too large for someone to open a small neighborhood market, sounds like a bad design from the start.

The thing that I have found on the left coast is you have large regional chains that also cater to the small market areas, and even the high risk areas, and you have small chains/stores that do quite well in difficult areas.

Wow.
Have you witnessed the money grubbing that goes on in the technical colleges sector along with their bloated promises?
Honest day's pay for an honest day's work...
Maybe you should ACTUALLY MEET some of these people rather than make blanket social judgements... just sayin'

Several good points.

Problem is, the money/subsidy was all about locating in that huge space.
You could literally fit two or three Warehouse Markets in that space.
The only regional supermarket chain IMHO that might be able to make a go of that large a space would be OKC's Buy For Less ... http://www.buyforlessok.com/

My POV is from living in different areas of Chicago in which it didn't make much sense to drive to a huge supermarket if you didn't have to and the neighborhood could have reasonably been labeled a "food desert"... the City Alderman in one area I lived found a way to entice Sav-A-Lot to locate a store there-- appropriate for an area that was pretty marginal at the time I lived there which pre-dates the northside of Chicago's more recent gentrification...

Also, there's additional pressures due to stores like Walgreens, CVS, and heck... QT, too... getting into the business of selling more and more grocery items... the Owen Park/Easton Heights/Gilcrease neighborhood looks a bit like a "food desert" itself as there are a surprising number of "car-challenged" people who do the majority of their grocery shopping at Family Dollar, Walgreens and Braum's...

Supposedly a family of 4 needs $50,000/yr.  At 2000 hrs/year (40 hour work week, 10 days of holidays and vacation/sick time) that would be $25/hr.  Is flipping burgers or sweeping the floor worth $25/hr?

The minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.
So, how much is one person's work worth?

That's what I'm asking you. Give us a number.  I won't argue the $7.25 number but is flipping burgers worth $25/hr?  At what point do we say that someone needs more skills?  I am a licensed professional engineer in the State of Oklahoma. Is that not worth more than someone only qualified to flip burgers?  If not, I really wasted a lot of time and effort on my education and professional credentials.

Ever been on Facebook??  That IS the whole point of that mess!!

I have given a number repeatedly - $10.00 an hour minimum!   The SAME amount as was being paid in 1968.  Now, am revising that to $11.

And as I have said before, there is NO job being done in this country worth less than that!  And if a so-called "management" can't think of how to use the massive explosion of technology, tools, equipment that have evolved since 1968, then their incompetent butts have no place being there.


As for your school, skills, credentials - yeah, me too, add MSEE - and like the vast majority of engineers you have a massive case of tunnel vision that keeps you focused on who is following you!  Understandable, because in every industry, and every job category, you are being subjected to wage compression - and it has gotten much worse the older you have get!  You must have noticed this, or you need some 'continuing education' in the outside world!   And unless you are using that stamp regularly, yeah, the PE was a big waste of time and effort.

What you should be looking at is why that guy sitting in one of the top two or three levels of company management is making 3 times what you make!  You went through a rigorous engineering curriculum, with massive doses of STEM.  You are literally in the top 1% of people with the kind of mind who can make modern society happen.  And yet, somebody who was able to sail through a liberal arts bachelor's program, then do some simple business cases in MBA school - and has the gift of gab, tells you that you are only worth $100 to 150k for your contribution - or $75k in Oklahoma!  But their contribution is worth a $700 k base with "other" bonuses, stock options, and miscellaneous worth an additional $15 million - average CEO compensation now in the US!  At a maximum 15% tax point for the "other".

Engineers as a whole have this strange, myopic view of the world that keeps them from being compensated proportionally compared to their relative compensation.  For all their smarts, they are mostly too dumb to realize that a union is the best thing in the world for them....not like the Teamsters, but more like doctors and lawyers have!

Two questions.

What are the populations north of Pine and south of Pine?

How QuikTrips are north of Pine and south of Pine?

What QT's are north of Admiral? I know there are three (off of the top of my head) along 244 and Admiral and the Lewis store mentioned.

Also, QT's best market outside of Tulsa is the Atlanta area. From an employee I know that works for them in that area, there long term plan is to move up I85 and invest heavily in the Carolinas.

How is it a false assumption? The business growth goes where the profit is. Unless someone has an emotional attachment to a certain area, it comes down to the bottom line.

The sad part is we have a lot of workers along the 66th Street corridor that live in other parts of Tulsa and would love to commute by bike if they felt safe and didn't get flats.

A food co-op could work in North Tulsa for sure. I'd pitch in and support it.

I think there is a generation right now that is giving the big middle finger to that. Bike riding is more popular than ever and a good chunk of the population wants to be around a more urbanized environment or are intrigued by that. It's why I live by Hillcrest. Sure, it's a little seedy in the area, but I have access to Cherry Street, Downtown, Brady, Pearl and to an extent Brookside. By bike, foot or a very short car drive. That matters to me, even at the expense of a higher crime rate.

All it takes is for more people like you moving into the area to eventually push out the seedier elements.  A very good friend of mine moved to Brady Heights about 1990 when that was one of the last places you wanted to live.  He moved there because it was cheap and he’d just relocated from California.  Bill has probably had something to do with the gentrification of the area as he would pester the mayor’s action line constantly to get dead cars removed other nuisances abated.

Why don't you give us a number?
Since you flippantly brought it up... I worked one as recently as six months ago.

If you read back a bit you will find I was responding to one of your posts and I was not being flippant.  You and I have established long ago that we don't agree on politics.  You can find your number a lot more quickly than I can.  Please re-post it.

Go to business college, take some history courses, read up, then get back to me.

Gateway Market Reopens

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gateway-market-reopens (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gateway-market-reopens)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201407/gateway.JPG)

The story says it has dry gods, not goods?

Anywhoo, sounds like a much smarter move to have smaller stores in that kind of area.  Will also be nice if several other businesses can go into that center.