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Talk About Tulsa => The Burbs => Topic started by: Ed W on April 26, 2014, 08:27:26 am



Title: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Ed W on April 26, 2014, 08:27:26 am
Construction is underway at the new distribution center. This place is going to be huge! This was taken this morning (Saturday) and the site was busy with trucks coming and going.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tSJg6JML08Q/U1vAKXEuj2I/AAAAAAAAUwU/E514xGLOFK8/w346-h260/P4262813+%282%29.jpg)


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 26, 2014, 10:43:59 am
Oh, so they have started construction on the evil government subsidized business that won't do anything for Tulsa and is just a waste of taxpayer money.  IIRC it's not needed. Yes, so many posted about how this will be a negative impact, and the wages earned are meaningless and won't do anything for the economy.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20348.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20348.0)



Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2014, 11:03:59 am
Oh, so they have started construction on the evil government subsidized business that won't do anything for Tulsa and is just a waste of taxpayer money.  IIRC it's not needed. Yes, so many posted about how this will be a negative impact, and the wages earned are meaningless and won't do anything for the economy.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20348.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20348.0)



Helpful and positive


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 26, 2014, 11:11:04 am
Helpful and positive

I was just commenting on how so many did not like this project, and some seemed to want it to go away and never be built. There are a lot of cities that would welcome this with open arms for the construction jobs, the boost in the infrastructure, and the permanent jobs created. I was just basing this on the comments here that there were people that did not want this.

You have this gem from nate:

Quote
Firstly, the agreement is for 1,020 FTEs with 367 actual full time employees, not 1,500 as was initially reported.

Does anyone actually know how much we are subsidizing these jobs? The original TW article spoke of $500,000 from Owasso, and a quick Google found this more recent report that says Tulsa County is forgoing about $8.75 million in property tax and the state somewhat less, with total incentives around $21 million. Is that really everything, or are there incentives not being fully disclosed as there have been with other projects elsewhere in the state? What is the total projected payroll (not the BS "total economic impact," which is necessarily lower than a locally owned business hiring 1020 FTEs at the same wage) and how does that compare to the total subsidies?

Is there a clawback provision in case they decide to close up shop early or choose not to hire the agreed upon number of employees?

And one last, more philosophical, question: Should we really be making Macy's competitors (and everyone else in the state) subsidize their business? To the tune of over $20,000 per job?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see more jobs in the area, I'm just not happy about handing out bribes to get them, especially when they are of the low skill and relatively low wage variety. We should have some sense of self worth and limit our bribes to those bringing jobs with a wage higher than our current average, not lower.

P.S. It costs money to provide services to this distribution center. It costs money to rebuild and maintain the roads that the trucks will use. It costs money to provide police and fire protection. The costs the rest of us bear are not small, so this is just epically stupid:

Quote

[Commissioner Smaligo] noted that Macy's will be obligated to pay property taxes ó estimated at about $10,000 a year ó on the base value of the land at the start of the project, meaning the county is not out any money.

Or maybe he's right and the county doesn't actually do jack smile in exchange for all the tax money we send them, in which case yeah, the county isn't out anything. Way to look at the big picture, bud.

From cannon:
Quote
$23,000 government subsidy for every job. 

Tell me more about small government, welfare reform, and how corporations make it on their own (id est, without help from government).

Again, not necessarily against the handout - it make make sense.  But every actual tax payer in the state just hand Lufthansa a few dollars.  It would be interest to see if we spend more on education or handouts, tax breaks, and corporate subsidies.  Counting state, county and city.

That said - Bizjet is a fine company. Ive heard good things about their new boss man in Tulsa.



Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2014, 02:42:24 pm
I was just commenting on how so many did not like this project, and some seemed to want it to go away and never be built. There are a lot of cities that would welcome this with open arms for the construction jobs, the boost in the infrastructure, and the permanent jobs created. I was just basing this on the comments here that there were people that did not want this.


I don't know that they didn't want the project.  Maybe I'm wrong. 

I'm hopeful it helps the area.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: nathanm on April 26, 2014, 02:54:53 pm
I was just commenting on how so many did not like this project, and some seemed to want it to go away and never be built.

You do realize that the post of mine that you quoted directly stated that I am happy that this is getting built here? That I have reservations about bribing them to build it and think that Smaligo said something that makes him look like a moron doesn't mean I don't see the benefit. It just would have been nice if we didn't have to give back much of that benefit. It will be interesting to see how long it takes before they threaten to move elsewhere if we don't give them more tax breaks.

It also never ceases to amaze me how people complain about big government and socialism and evil democrats out one side of their mouth while outright praising government handouts like this with the other side. It's completely bizarre.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2014, 05:43:05 pm
You do realize that the post of mine that you quoted directly stated that I am happy that this is getting built here? That I have reservations about bribing them to build it and think that Smaligo said something that makes him look like a moron doesn't mean I don't see the benefit. It just would have been nice if we didn't have to give back much of that benefit. It will be interesting to see how long it takes before they threaten to move elsewhere if we don't give them more tax breaks.

It also never ceases to amaze me how people complain about big government and socialism and evil democrats out one side of their mouth while outright praising government handouts like this with the other side. It's completely bizarre.

I suppose itís different when those handouts actually involve people going to work every day instead of going to QT then sitting on the porch drinking cheap beer and smoking generic cigs the rest of the day with that subsidy.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2014, 09:36:40 pm
going to QT then sitting on the porch drinking cheap beer and smoking generic cigs the rest of the day with that subsidy.

You're describing Tuesday/Thursday.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: nathanm on April 27, 2014, 01:32:27 pm
I suppose itís different when those handouts actually involve people going to work every day instead of going to QT then sitting on the porch drinking cheap beer and smoking generic cigs the rest of the day with that subsidy.

This subsidy goes to people who jet off to Mauritius and lay about on the beach drinking overpriced beer and Cuban cigars; not really sure why that's any better.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: BKDotCom on April 27, 2014, 02:33:48 pm
I suppose itís different when those handouts actually involve people going to work every day instead of going to QT then sitting on the porch drinking cheap beer and smoking generic cigs the rest of the day with that subsidy.

corporate welfare vs welfare


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: Conan71 on April 27, 2014, 07:43:15 pm
This subsidy goes to people who jet off to Mauritius and lay about on the beach drinking overpriced beer and Cuban cigars; not really sure why that's any better.

I like beaches.  Therefore, it makes me feel better.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 28, 2014, 07:31:07 pm
I feel honored to have my quote not only attributed, but be interpreted inexplicably.  Not only was it NOT about Macy's, but it said I was glad the project was being done.

Why react with such hostility when people question government handouts to billionaires?  When did giving money to corporations and the already rich become sacred to the Republican party?  I just want to make sure We the People are getting bang for our buck, discuss fair competition and the proper role of government.

Let's dig up Thomas Jefferson or Aaron Burr and ask them how much tax payer money should be given to private companies "to create jobs.". Then we can go back to mocking socialism.

Also, I'm hiring 3 new employees.  I'd like my $60k check from the government.  What? None for me?

/back to the POSITIVE

This thing IS huge.  Watching even the pad take shape will he interesting.  I'm sure the eventual truck traffic will spur a new truck stop in that area.  I'm guessing more distribution type centers move in... they travel in packs.


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 28, 2014, 08:55:46 pm
corporate welfare vs welfare


Better to help just one, instead of hundreds....



Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 28, 2014, 09:04:59 pm

When did giving money to corporations and the already rich become sacred to the Republican party?  



1981.  When the guy who campaigned on a balanced budget amendment suddenly turned around and gave massive tax cuts to his rich buddies and started the process we continue today of racking up the Federal debt to ever more unimaginably higher levels.  Luckily, there is a true fiscal conservative in place today that, in spite of epic obstructionism, has been overseer of more than 5 years of continuously lowering overspending on the Federal level - going from a high of $1.9 trillion extra debt (and increasing) for the last year of the previous regime, to the estimate of $490 billion for this fiscal year - 25% of the overspending that was inherited from the previous.  All while giving regular people the biggest tax cuts in the history of the country!  Not including the richest 1% who had already, and continue to this day, benefited from their special tax cuts for the previous 10 years....







Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 10, 2014, 06:38:24 pm
Sorry if I misquoted, misconstrued, or incorrectly represented comments by others. After reading comments from 2,6,8,23 and TW websites all I managed to see was people not wanting Macy's because of the tax incentives offered by the state and or county. It reminded me of when Whirlpool was being enticed to build out at Cherokee, that everyone wanted it to help people get back to work after the closure of McDonnell/Douglas, and cut backs at what was Rockwell, and the losses that were still evident from other companies in Tulsa. Everyone was so happy to get the plant, until the general contractor for the construction was announced as being an out of state company, and so many people turned against the project. Then when the pay scales were announced for the jobs at the plant, a lot of those people who were so opposed to it, ran back wanting jobs there.



Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 11, 2014, 10:01:13 pm

Then when the pay scales were announced for the jobs at the plant, a lot of those people who were so opposed to it, ran back wanting jobs there.



And those pay scales explained with the preface, "We are not oil and we are not aircraft industries...."  Pay scales were mediocre at best.  Don't know anyone there for the last 5 years or so - have there been increases in the pay scales??



Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 12, 2014, 12:45:43 am

And those pay scales explained with the preface, "We are not oil and we are not aircraft industries...."  Pay scales were mediocre at best.  Don't know anyone there for the last 5 years or so - have there been increases in the pay scales??



Back in '96-'97 minimum wag was $4.75 and then went to $5.15 in '97. The starting wages at Whirlpool IIRC was $8.00 or slightly better for general wages plus benefits. At the time you could get call center jobs at $10.00 but they may not include any benefits, so Whirlpool was very enticing. You could get hired on and have a potential future, and possibly getting paid twice what you were making, with some real benefits.

If you are making $7.45 with no bennies right now, $10.00 to $12.00 at Macy's looks good (are they offering any bennies?) it's a start to improve pay for someone, and may offer them a growth potential.

As has been discussed elsewhere, cities and county's, and states offering incentives to get new businesses is the new norm, for good or bad. If OK wants to keep and attract high tech, higher paying jobs, they need to make incentives, and God forbid, change some things about the state to make it more attractive. (Give Smoot a job writing parking tickets and change some of the liquor laws)


Title: Re: Macy's distribution center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2014, 09:08:54 am
Back in '96-'97 minimum wag was $4.75 and then went to $5.15 in '97. The starting wages at Whirlpool IIRC was $8.00 or slightly better for general wages plus benefits. At the time you could get call center jobs at $10.00 but they may not include any benefits, so Whirlpool was very enticing. You could get hired on and have a potential future, and possibly getting paid twice what you were making, with some real benefits.

If you are making $7.45 with no bennies right now, $10.00 to $12.00 at Macy's looks good (are they offering any bennies?) it's a start to improve pay for someone, and may offer them a growth potential.

As has been discussed elsewhere, cities and county's, and states offering incentives to get new businesses is the new norm, for good or bad. If OK wants to keep and attract high tech, higher paying jobs, they need to make incentives, and God forbid, change some things about the state to make it more attractive. (Give Smoot a job writing parking tickets and change some of the liquor laws)


In the orientation cattle calls they had, people were told the hourly rates would be in the $6 to $8 per hour range.  Had 2 friends who went to work there, from Rockwell.  Not exactly enticing.  But kept the wolf away from the door for a while.  As time went on, one left after about 3 years and the other stayed for over 10 years.  They did have small raises and there were benefits.  But NO where on a par with either aircraft industry or oil.


Incentives are a lame excuse for not doing all the other things a state should do to make a business friendly environment.  If the state has done even just most of the other stuff right, they don't need to offer "incentives" - those other things ARE the biggest incentive!!