The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I was talking to a friend recently who has been mountain biking on the land west of Chandler Park, roughly south of Avery Drive and well north of 41st.  He said there are many miles of trails and that it rivals Turkey Mtn.  He said there is a creek that is usually dry but has rapids and small waterfalls after heavy rains, and that some of the cliffs near where this creek empties into the river are 40' tall.  I've done some hiking around the cliffs in Chandler Park before but never in the area to the west.  Anyone been there?  Who owns that land?  Sounds pretty interesting especially being 15 min from midtown.

I believe much of that land is a former landfill that was at one time a Superfund site.

Doing some research the former Superfund site is only the area immediately west of Chandler Park where there used to be a landfill that has been capped.
http://www.epa.gov/region6/6sf/pdffiles/compass-ok.pdf (http://www.epa.gov/region6/6sf/pdffiles/compass-ok.pdf)

Some info on the trails
http://www.tztrailguide.com/2012/02/chandler-park.html?m=1 (http://www.tztrailguide.com/2012/02/chandler-park.html?m=1)

Beat me to it. I remember when it was announced as a SF Site, not long after Tar Creek was announced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites_in_Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites_in_Oklahoma)

Pretty popular 4-wheeling area back there. I've been around a bit of it in a Razr.

I rode it extensively in 2011 while I was training for a race in Colorado mainly because I could get in long rides without the technical difficulty of Turkey Mountain.  There’s miles and miles of jeep trail and single track, it’s a load of fun to ride. There are technical rock gardens that rival Turkey Mountain in places, yet there’s also plenty of really nice riding terrain.  It can be easy to get lost and a little disoriented, but all you need to do is walk or ride toward one boundary or another and you will eventually make it out.  It can be a little spooky as there are very, very few people around out there.  If you are riding or hiking solo and get hurt, it may be awhile before anyone finds you.  I’d highly recommend you don’t go out there without a cell phone.

Far as I know it all the property is owned by Tulsa County.  You can access it via several points around neighborhoods in Berryhill as well as near the lift station on Avery Drive and a couple of spots near TCC on 41st.  The superfund site is fenced off separately to keep access only to those who need it.

The last I knew there were no marked trails.  I have friends who live near there that showed me around.  If you are interested, I can see if we can do a Saturday or Sunday excursion out there and show you around.

Interesting, sounds like I need to check it out sometime.  If it's Tulsa County land why isn't it a county park or wilderness area?  It wouldn't be difficult it sounds to just connect this to Chandler Park, and add some signage/maps for the trail network.  Tulsa has a good amount of cool natural areas for hiking and biking really close to the city but many don't know about them, or they are not marketed/hidden.  Turkey Mountain is the exception, but there's also the trails around Keystone Lake and at Redbud Valley.  

A look at the topo map for the area shows similar terrain as Turkey Mountain with the highest elevation at 830 ft. (Turkey is 900 ft.) dropping down to 640 ft. where the creek (not sure its name) dumps into the river.  This is where you can see the high cliffs along Avery Drive, and likely several along the creek further back from the road.  That must be where the rapids/waterfalls are when it rains.  It also looks densely forested with a few small meadows, and lots of meandering trails.  

I honestly don’t know why it’s not, might be a good question for Karen Keith to see if she knows.  They have tried to block as many access points for jeeps but they still find their way in and it’s not like they have no trespassing signs at the points I’ve gone in at.  They could provide an entrance at the west end of Chandler Park, yet they don’t.  It would make sense for parking.

I thought it was owned by an absentee. I was even told it was supposed to be turned into housing at some point which is why you run into power lines and water lines occasionally

It appears Grizzle is correct, looking at the boundary map on this page, Chandler Park is but a fraction of the entire parcel from 65th W. Ave to Highway 97 and Avery to 41st.

http://www.travelok.com/listings/view.profile/id.1200

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=7931737

That's immiediately West of CP and well fenced.  The place in question is private property.

Any chance the county would be interested in turning this into a park or wilderness area?  It seem like it would be a prime recreation area for hiking, mountain biking and rock climbing.  A larger alternative to popular Turkey Mountain.

According to Tulsa County, most all of the property West of Chandler park is owned by "BROTTON, ANDREW J JR."    He shows up as owning Caravan Cattle Co.

It's been for sale at different times and would likely be now... could be yours

Nope Mr. Broughton is local and not one that I would recommend anyone trespass on but then again absentee or local trespassing is trespassing.
 
FYI - Those utility lines (at least the sewer, anyway) which cross the property primarily serve the area around TCC which made it possible to develop the site along with the Armory.  I was involved this project 18-20 years ago.  The service flows north from 41st to the SS regional lift station on Avery Drive (W. of Chandler Park) with the force two mains crossing under the river and on into the SS main plant on the North side of the River. 

He would be smart to sell access to his property, but then he would have to insure it and such.

This land is used by thousands of people, so it appears he isn't too interested in keeping people off.

Maybe Vision2055 should include purchase of this land for recreational purposes.

Owning undeveloped land is like owning a swimming pool. Its an attractive nuisance. You simply cannot easily keep those thousands of people off your land who are often packing, often drinking and always trespassing. I know of one parcel in that area that is privately owned adjacent to the river. People have trespassed so long that fishermen and four-wheelers assured me it was county land. They had even broken down fences to allow their trucks access.
Shooting ranges have been set up on sand dunes on the property which has made the sand too heavy with lead to be processed for commercial use. Local feral dogs seem to be the security for the area. What are you going to do as a private owner, call the Sheriff every time some fisherman camps?

Haven't been there in several years but it was practically becoming "public domain".

+1.  Just look at what a positive Turkey Mtn has been.  Tulsa County doesn't have many other places like this that are rugged, forested and adjacent to an existing park.  Connect it to the river trails which could take the bikes off Avery Dr and you have a new destination.  These are the kinds of quality of life things that set Tulsa apart from similar cities, especially our friends down the Turnpike.

That's about the only thing you can do.  And if absentee landowner, then obviously not gonna care, or you would have a local presence of some sort (property manager, etc).  Just holding on for the sake of holding on - hoping to score that big land sale lottery in the sky sometime in the future when the next Tulsa Hills appears....

Reviving this old thread because I thought about this today while driving along Avery Dr.  It looks like such a cool area back there south of the road I just wish there was better access (and the whole trespassing on private property thing).

I may email GT and see if he responds.  At least put it on his radar that this should be an urban wilderness like Turkey Mountain. 

Chandler Park is a county park and isn't inside the city of Tulsa.

I have spent some time exploring around there. The upper part is very rugged with lots of ravines, since in the early days of Tulsa they mined the area for rock to build bridges and roads. I'm told they actually had a ramp they slid rock down into waiting barges on the river. It looks believable. Some imposing abutments still there. I hiked the area below Avery Road from the base of Chandler (private property) to the SS Home property just below hwy 97. I knew the owners. Very nice hike. You can also see where folks have been repelling the nearby cliffs overlooking that point. It deserves more attention than it gets, but then its got that West Tulsa, County Park, Industrial setting working against it.

I’ve met with a county commissioner regarding this.  It has been on the county's radar screen for some time.  The problem is, the owner thinks that 1300 acres is worth a ton of money and it might be to the right developer.  The owner has also been approached about making a donation of land which would have favorable tax benefits and that has been rejected as well.  Scraping up private donations to the magnitude of $20 mil or more to purchase urban wilderness is a very, very tall order.  That’s something I might know just a little bit about.   ;)

There is likely another side to that. The county has long lusted for that land. Some owners had to fight to keep them from appropriating their land for public use, so there may be some hard feelings from way back. I know one of the owners paid a lot for a survey to delineate just what they owned. Meanwhile the area on Avery approaching Chandler from the city is becoming pretty ugly. Industrial is not pretty. Half a hillside scraped off for roadbuilding materials. You can see the scar from the Sand Springs side of the river. I wish the county or city would address that.

The city or county cannot simply appropriate private land for public use and I’ve never heard of an eminent domain action regarding that land.  The only thing I do recall as government-related action on any of the land in the area is the Compass Landfill superfund site on top of Chandler Park which is now sealed and vented.

My source was a personal conversation with the owner of the land below Avery Drive. I'm not a lawyer and I didn't use the term eminent domain because they didn't use that method. Perhaps I should have said they tried to steal it. They challenged the ownership. Title had to be defended. These actions actually pre-dated the Compass Land fill superfund designation. Later, I was offered the property but was unable to find financing and arranged for a friend to purchase it. Not sure of the ownership now but my friend paid a lot to survey and secure good title. This has not been unusual for the county for properties along the river from conversations I've had with other owners.

Don't know if Brotton is still the owner of the land, but I heard on radio that Caravan Cattle Co is gonna close as a dance hall.  He didn't say if/when it would reopen, but wouldn't be country music dance hall.

Note, I am referring to the land below Avery Drive. The land adjacent and to the Chandler side I assumed to be County land. At the top of the hills are private land and the protected superfund site.

Last time I cruzed by there I noticed trucks removing old sand mining equipment, railroad tracks and the "dunes". I suspect something is happening with the land but likely more industrial/commercial. Maybe Grizz knows. Too bad because it sits right next to the planned bridge for the Gilcrease extension.

He is.

At one time the Chandler's had a rock cleaning and RR loading station in there below Avery Drive along with a training jetty constructed of waste cap rock that went about half 1/3 the way across the river and was used to form a pool for pumping water to the crushers and washers and to form a drop out zone below it for sand mining, it was located at the creek about 1/2 mile west of the park.  I hit the buried remnants of it crossing the river with a pair of force mains going to the SS Waste Water Treatment Plant in the 90's.  When trying to figure out what we bumped into I was told it washed out in the 58 or 59 flood and wasn't rebuilt.... that wasn't a very fun winter!

You are a fine source of info for that kind of stuff on the river. Did you know Bob Chandler?

I met with the County Commissioner and this landowner a few months back. I agree with Conan's assessment of the land being over-valued on the owner's part.

Are you saying he's asking for more than the $700 fair market value assessment the County is giving?
http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99218921824930&return=close

$77 a year in taxes. Seems exceptionally low for 5 acres of land even if it wasn't in the City, or overlooking a river, or next to a park, or... maybe something to do with post-superfund status? Who knows. But at $77 a year upkeep... he can sit on it forever.

There's a few other parcels back in there too. But this is the one directly next to Chandler.
- -

Man, if we made that park into a biking/hiking area, even if we left the 4 wheelers a section to destroy their tracks (too muddy to run, so we move the track 10 feet. Too muddy to run, so...), it would still be an awesome asset. People under estimate bikers and hikers who do long weekends. And probably 4 wheelers too...

The 60 acres GKFF recently purchased for $2.9 million on the western flank of Turkey Mountain was only being taxed at $26 per year.

Yes.

Sounds like a similar situation to the Mid-Continent plant on the West Bank.  The land owner thinks their property is worth way more than it really is.  That is encouraging to hear it has been on the county's radar to acquire it.  I think you only need to look at how successful Turkey Mountain has been and see the same possibility with this area.  While not as centrally located it is also much larger and offers more "wilderness" than TM.  Why would you not preserve and protect such a unique area within 10 miles of downtown.

It's worth it to them. 

Always lost on this crowd. The value of a piece of property is what a buyer will pay, and a seller is willing to sell for. Its valuation for other purposes is irrelevant to its value to a buyer and seller.

IOW, who cares what the bank thinks my 2008 Ford Edge is worth if its a cash deal? My insurance company has agreed with me on a value for its replacement but that has nothing to do with its value to me.

A mortgage company may value a property based on its perceived market value to protect its bottom line but that isn't necessarily its value.

Sometimes they don't even know how to assess a market value on an item (such as an antique firetruck) and therefore are unwilling to loan on it. Does that mean the item is valueless?

Not true...

True. There are exceptions where one party takes advantage of another and legal remedies are available, but in general, there are different methods and reasons for determining value. If I own a concrete plant on the West side of the river and I think its worth $30 million to me then it matters not that others find its market value to be out of line with similar properties or "inflated". Each property has its own unique characteristics.

The government may value it at more or less depending on other factors than buyer/seller and in fact may value it for less than my value for eminent domain purposes.

In the end something is worth what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to sell.

Am I behind the times? Show me.

That proves it..!! 

True!

I have an old raggedy-a$$ rust car that is "worth" maybe a hundred bucks for scrap steel.  I won't take anything less than $75,000 cash for it.  That means I am extremely attached to it, but I do have my price....

Decent points AquaMan, but you overstate it.

Simply because you say your 1996 Ford Taurus is worth $25,000 --- it doesn't make it so. The actual cash value of that vehicle is nothing more than the market is willing to pay for it. If you aren't willing to sell at that price, so be it. But the value is set by the external market. (yes, yes, I get that the owner is a theoretical "buyer" and by not selling he is the highest bidder... but that leads to wildly illogical outcomes like a 1996 Taurus being worth $25k because the owner says it is, which no rational person would factor into the average value of a 1996 Ford Taurus).

On real property, if the owner lists it at $3mil and the market will only pay $1mil, the property has a market value of $1mil and an owner that doesn't want to sell. Nothing more, nothing less. The owner may be working in externalities that the market doesn't care about -  the income he can earn from it that the market cannot, the pain in the butt of moving his business/home, nostalgia, or an optimistic rise in future value.  All legitimate reasons to hold out for a higher price in the future. But it doesn't mean the property has an actual value of $3mil... that is, in fact, an inflated value as far as the market is concerned.

My favorite example are baseball cards. Just because the book says the card is worth $500, doesn't mean anything. Just because I'm determined to hold onto the card until someone pays me $500, doesn't mean anything. The card is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay me for it. The naked, callous, market driven, cash value of the object.

I'm pretty sure we're agreeing on my basic premise. It is worth what a buyer will pay AND a seller will accept. Its value then is not determined ONLY by what the market will pay any more than it is determined ONLY by what the seller is asking. His market may be only one person in Switzerland that isn't aware of its availability! 

For all we know that property on the West Bank is enabling the company to make a better profit than any other similar property that is available. So, like you said, its basically not for sale.

I don't disagree with your concept Aquaman (by the way, I am a big fan of your comics and movies).

But now that I work in real estate property assessment, many property owners have a highly inflated value of their land. They often refuse to accept reasonable offers just knowing that some incredible thing will happen across the road and a guy with a suitcase full of money will approach them.

I have a guy right now with land on Grand Lake that thinks his land is worth $9 million dollars an acre.

This conversation was about acquiring land for public use and could possibly even be purchased with public dollars. The property is currently on the tax rolls for tens of dollars and he wants millions of dollars for it. So when does the public get in? We the public only get taxes in very small amounts of money because the land is valued as almost worthless and now the public might be asked to buy it because it is so valuable.

I am not just picking on this guy. He is just an example of a problem.

Yeah, I've seen many of those cases when I was selling real estate. Frustrating. The property at 21st and Boulder behind the law offices had a nice two story home on it that had some history. It was also the offices of the first female chiropractor in the state. So, of course when she passed, the heirs thought they had a mansion and a gold mine. Never sold. 30 years later its an empty lot.

But, note, I made clear that there are different valuations for different reasons. Banks have their reasons, governments have theirs. Its always a shock when the owners realize the gold mine is feldspar and the government is their only buyer!

TW article about the Park Dept. trying to raise $18 million for Chandler Park renovations, but only $4 million is appropriated from the V2025 renewal.  Good to see more investment is planned for this park, hopefully that combined with the interest (and crowds) at Turkey Mountain will raise awareness of the need for additional "urban wilderness" at Chandler.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/chandler-park-s-full-potential-awaits-but-more-funds-needed/article_2585c42f-619b-562c-a2a2-3dbb4c45bd4f.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/chandler-park-s-full-potential-awaits-but-more-funds-needed/article_2585c42f-619b-562c-a2a2-3dbb4c45bd4f.html)

Whine about money, but tear out perfectly good WPA/CCC era structures and replace them with ugly open pavilions.

Then they close off the whole bottom section? 

Whoever is in charge has some strange priorities.

I thought WPA as well, but according to the county parks manager those structures all date to the 1960's or 1970's not the 1930's.

Here is the 1967 USGS aerial of that section of Tulsa with Chandler park towards the lower left corner. If you download the PDF you can enlarge it more than a standard PDF viewer. The lower level of the park is still under construction in 1967, the eastern most shelter on the lower level is being built, and the western end of the lower level has not been completed.

http://cdm15020.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p16063coll3/id/27/filename/28.pdf (http://cdm15020.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p16063coll3/id/27/filename/28.pdf)

I don't know that I would have believed you, but the aerial makes it hard to argue.   Apparently whoever built it, sure stayed true to that old WPA/CCC format.

I still don't understand closing off half a park (or selling parkland.)   That being said, I did donate after we drove through the Christmas lights up there, and I would rather see my taxes go to that than to almost anything else.

As Conan pointed out a lot of the parks in Tulsa were built in the 60's, parks like Mohawk, Chandler, Reed, Whiteside, O'Brien, LaFortune, Zigler and some others that I can't think of right now.

Just to add, this is where I got the aerial from, and most of Tulsa in 1967 is available from this site. It's really interesting to see how Tulsa has changed in the last 50 years.

http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/03/north-of-downtown-tulsa-1967.html (http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/03/north-of-downtown-tulsa-1967.html)

Turkey Mountain is overused. The lots are crowded, the common trails are crowded, erosion is a problem, and the facilities are inadequate for the crowds.  Without major changes and a significant investment in trail maintenance, it will continue to decline.  This from someone who loves Turkey Mountain.

Chandler Park could help alleviate some of the pressure.  Its clear people want hiking, mountain biking, and horse trails (the number of horse riders at Turkey has dropped as popularity has increased).  As far as public facilities are concerned, this is a cheap investment.  I hope they do this right.

Turkey Mountain will always be popular because of its location, easily accessible from most parts of the city.  Chandler could be an alternate though for people looking for more solitude and more miles of trails, and an overall different experience especially if they open up the "backcountry" to the west which is like adding 3 Turkey Mountain's if you include all of the land between Avery, Chandler, Hwy 97 and 41st.  It's a huge area with a similar topography to Turkey Mountain but with more cliffs, a larger canyon/gulch in the center and dense forest.

And once the Gilcrease Expressway opens to the east it will be more easily accessible with an exit/onramp at 21st St less than a mile from Chandler's main entrance and another at 41st St which could be an secondary access point for the backcountry areas by TCC-West.

(http://www.batesline.com/archives/assets_c/2011/11/Gilcrease_Fence_Line_Annotated-thumb-500x647-430.png)

TUWC (which you still need to get involved with...ahem) is working with RPA to prioritize trail repairs.

This is precisely why more trail users need to get involved with TUWC, there are plenty of opportunities to provide input on needed repairs as well as providing a source of volunteer labor to make those repairs as they happen.  RPA simply does not have the manpower nor the budget to hire the manpower to keep up with trail maintenance at Turkey Mountain. 

It's still anyone's guess what KFF will end up wanting to do at Turkey Mountain as far as a master plan goes once their focus shifts from the Gathering Place, but TUWC has been assured they will have a seat at the table when that happens.

My comment wasn't meant as a criticism to RPA, TUWC, or any other groups that do trail work at Turkey. I've been there and tried to keep up with them, they work their butts off.  But the total investment in Turkey past the main landing and upper parking lot is one sign at the back of power line, 2 other emergency location signs, and sporadic spray paint on trees. Trail maintenance from RPA is what, 2 days a year with mostly volunteers and equipment/fill available at one day every other year? 

Small groups of people with limited budgets can't keep up with the popularity growth of the last 5 years.   I used to go out there with my dog off the leash all the time, because once ~100 yards past the parking lot you didn't run into many people.  If I did, I could easily heel my dog and grab a collar.  Now - you see someone every 2 minutes, so you can't let a dog off a leash without being a pest to other people or risking it running in front of a cyclist (and, of course, it has always been against the rules.  With more people there *should* come more enforcement). There used to be one parking lot and it was rarely full.  There are not meant as a complaints, as everyone has a right to use our parks, just indicators usage is up.

Trails are no different than roads.  They wear out with more use. Many of the trails are 20+ years old and haven't had significant maintenance because its too hard to get a wheel borrow of fill in there.  The crews do the best they can, but compared to many other trails I've hiked/ridden the overuse/erosion issues at Turkey are substantial.

Also, Turkey doesn't provide very good beginner mountain biking or well marked trails for hikers.  Hell, I'm not sure I could really follow the yellow trail from the lower parking lot and stay on the marked trail for the entire loop.  Go to any other than yellow trail and I'm not sure you have a chance of following the right trail for an entire loop.  For mountain biking, the fact that the trails are too challenging for most riders is evidenced by the sprawl of certain sections of trails.   When the trail keeps getting wider and wider, or keeps creeping to other paths, it's a sign that most riders are trying to avoid the designated line. They shouldn't do that - but we can glean useful information from it anyway. If other convenient trails were available, riders looking for the easier line can head there (or if a trail guide at Turkey showed easier/difficult segments).

Those things don't discourage me from heading out there.  I know the trails or I can just head south and figure I'll find a parking lot.  I can walk my bike if a trail is too difficult.  BUT - if we are trying to encourage people to get our more and go into outdoor recreation, these are concerns.  Which is a paradox since my other complaint is that they are overused.  I think it's a testament to how much people in Tulsa want to get out and do things in urban wilderness areas. 

Which is why providing more places to do so is a great idea!


(Again, I'm not trying to be critical of people who do more than I do. If they had the resources of state parks [or the resources state parks used to have] or of Bentonville or other places that have invested... they'd continue to outperform with the resources they are granted)