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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: RecycleMichael on February 10, 2014, 06:56:30 am



Title: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 10, 2014, 06:56:30 am
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/want-cut-government-waste-8-5-trillion-pentagon-142321339.html

If you thought the botched rollout of Obamacare, the government shutdown, or the sequester represented Washington dysfunction at its worst, wait until you hear about the taxpayer waste at the Defense Department.

Special Enterprise Reporter Scot Paltrow unearthed the “high cost of the Pentagon’s bad bookkeeping” in a Reuters investigation. It amounts to $8.5 trillion in taxpayer money doled out by Congress to the Pentagon since 1996 that has never been accounted for. (The year 1996 was the first that the Pentagon should have been audited under a law requiring audits of all government departments. Oh, and by the way, the Pentagon is the only federal agency that has not complied with this law.)

Here are some some highlights he found among the billions of dollars of waste and dysfunctional accounting at the Pentagon:
•The DOD has amassed a backlog of more than $500 billion in unaudited contracts with outside vendors. How much of that money paid for actual goods and services delivered isn’t known.
•Over the past 10 years the DOD has signed contracts for provisions of more than $3 trillion in goods and services. How much of that money is wasted in overpayments to contractors, or was never spent and never remitted to the Treasury is a mystery.
•The Pentagon uses a standard operating procedure to enter false numbers, or “plugs,” to cover lost or missing information in their accounting in order to submit a balanced budget to the Treasury. In 2012, the Pentagon reported $9.22 billion in these reconciling amounts. That was up from $7.41 billion the year before.
•The accounting dysfunction leads the DOD to buy too much stuff. One example: the “vehicular control arm” to supply Humvees. In 2008, the DOD had 15,000 parts -- a 14-year supply (anything more than three years is considered excess supply). Yet from 2010 to 2012, it bought 7,437 more of these parts and at higher prices than they paid for the ones they already had.

The Defense Department’s 2012 budget was $565.8 billion. Paltrow points out that’s more than the annual defense budgets of the next 10 biggest military spenders combined. He tells us the Pentagon “almost certainly is” the biggest source of waste in the government based on his reporting.

Looking forward, defense spending in the fiscal 2014 budget is set to be cut $20 billion from 2013 levels due to the sequester. In response, military officials, including Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, have raised an alarm over the impact of these cuts. Hagel told a conference the cuts are “too steep, too deep, and too abrupt.”

The Wall Street Journal reports Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James F. Amos told a House panel in September the “abruptness and inflexibility of sequestration…could erode our readiness to dangerous levels.”

“So much of that could be cut, that the impact of the sequester would be much less than [what] Pentagon officials are claiming.” He adds that officials are basing their budget requests on their own priorities, rather than firm knowledge of what’s needed because leaders don’t know what money is slushing around.

The good news is that because of arguments over the deficit and the budget, Paltrow sees signs that members of Congress are getting serious about waste at the Pentagon.


Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on February 10, 2014, 08:13:53 am
Spending bills originate in the House. It's unlikely the authoritarians there would want to be seen as "soft on defense" so I have to wonder if there’s much hope of genuine reform.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2014, 08:39:35 am
Here are some articles on where the bloat starts with the Pentagon: Too many leaders and Congress is afraid to stand up to generals and admirals.  It’s very much like every other government bureaucracy, only when you challenge a military leader, you are seen as being un-patriotic.  Every department leader circles the wagons and claims all their department needs all personnel and budget cuts would decimate the intended function of their little fiefdom.  

This was something I started looking into a few weeks ago after an email meme hit my in box claiming President Obama had fired over 2000 generals due to their religious beliefs.  That sounded like more generals than could possibly be on active duty and I was right, though there apparently still is a problem with too much brass at the top.

Before anyone mistakes this for hating on troops on the ground, far from it.  It’s a simple matter that the Pentagon is yet one more out of control government bureaucracy which spends billions more than it needs.

Not a fan of “Truth-Out” as a publication but Dina Rasor has a ton of credibility on government waste:

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/5920:the-pentagons-biggest-overrun-way-too-many-generals

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/world-report/2013/07/24/the-pentagon-has-too-many-troops

Quote
Troop levels are being cut. Civilians are being furloughed. Planes are being grounded. Ships are being docked. But the Pentagon's top ranks are thriving.
Over the past 10 years, as the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan raged, the U.S. military's enlisted ranks shrank, while the officer corps – particularly the general and flag officer ranks – and the bureaucracy supporting these top commanders, grew immensely.

Earlier this month Third Way released a report on this trend, reaching a disquieting conclusion – the U.S. military is more top-heavy than it has ever been. While I, and others, have documented this trend before, it's only gotten worse. The U.S. military now has an officer-to-enlisted personnel ratio that's at an all-time high; this imbalance will only worsen with the recent announcement of further reductions to the force.

In hopes of slashing some of this bloat, last week Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel ordered a 20 percent reduction to top military brass and their staffs. However, Hagel offered no details and indicated that cuts won't begin until 2015.

Unfortunately, the Pentagon has a poor track record of following through on plans to trim its top ranks.

In 2010, former Secretary of Defense Robert Gates called for eliminating more than 100 general and flag officer positions as part of his Efficiency Initiatives. Despite this clear plan and Pentagon assurances that "we did cut generals," the top ranks remain largely intact. In those ranks, as with the rest of the force, it's the lower ranks that bear the burden while the top ranks are spared.

When you compare Gates' plan with the most recent data available on the number of general and flag officers, the conclusion is clear – the Pentagon isn't adhering to Gates' Efficiency Initiatives. While the number of these officers on DoD's payroll has dropped since Gates' announcement, the vast majority of those cut are one-stars – in fact, more one-stars have been cut than Gates recommended. However, reductions to the top ranks are lagging far behind Gates' plan. As a result, the Pentagon still has 37 four-star general and flag officers, or G/FOs, on its payroll, which is more four-stars than served during World War II – when the military had nearly 10 times as many enlisted personnel.

(http://www.usnews.com/dbimages/master/45008/GR_130723_freeman.jpg)

This bloat at the top has had a trickle-down effect that hinders troops and wastes money.

A May 2013 GAO analysis found that the number of support staff at DoD's Combatant Command headquarters grew "by about 50 percent from fiscal years 2001 through 2012." This has created added distance between commanders and warfighters. "In some cases the gap between me and an action officer may be as high as 30 layers," Gates once stated, resulting in a "bureaucracy which has the fine motor skills of a dinosaur."

A top-heavy military also has serious financial costs. Despite a declining defense budget, generals and admirals continue to live like kings, living in mansions and surrounding themselves with entourages that would make Jay-Z envious. In fact, according to a recent Los Angeles Times report, there are "hundreds of high-priced homes in the Pentagon inventory." Just operating and maintaining  these homes can exceed $100,000 annually; some homes, like those on prime waterfront real estate at D.C.'s Fort McNair, cost around $1 million to renovate.

While lifestyle costs may be colorfully wasteful, they're small potatoes compared to headquarters support costs, which GAO found had more than doubled from fiscal year 2007 ($459 million) to fiscal year 2012 ($1.06 billion).

Fortunately, there are some very simple solutions. First, as Reps. Morgan Griffith, R-Va., and Keith Ellison, D-Mich., recently proposed, Gates' Efficiency Initiatives should be fully implemented. Second, caps on the total number of general and flag officers, should be reinstated and tied to the size of the force. The top ranks shouldn't grow while the force shrinks.

With declining defense budgets, we need to trim the fat at the top, creating a leaner and more effective military. The front-line should not be sacrificed to spare the back office.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: nathanm on February 11, 2014, 06:32:10 pm
There is a halfway reasonable argument for not limiting the number of flag officers. It can lead to stagnation in the ranks as the chain of promotions gets clogged up with senior people not yet ready to retire leaving no place to promote the younger people in the organization. Point being that if we do in fact cap the number of flag officers again, we should take care to make the limit higher than might be dictated by what we can justify operationally at any given point in time. Forgetting the overall organizational considerations is a large part of what has led us to have such a wasteful military, with much oversupply and duplication in some areas and extreme undersupply in others.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 11, 2014, 06:43:35 pm
The US Military spent $718,000,000,000.00 in 2013 (not counting some veterans programs which are the Federal Retirement system).  $10 Billion is really a 1.3% error rate.  For a bloated animal with that many heads, they are actually doing pretty well (ignoring the issues of audit etc.).

It is the scale that is messed up.

We spent more than
China
Russia
the UK
France
Japan
India
Saudi Arabia
Germany
Brzail
Italy
South Korea
Australia
Canada
and Turkey...

COMBINED!

As a percent of our GDP, we have not really increased our military spending.  By the trend in the rest of the world is down much steeper. Are we that inefficient, just more costly, more likely to get into a war with everyone else at the same time?

I'm not arguing we should decrease our military.  But certainly making up a majority of our discretionary budget, we do need to have the debate.  Just like raising the SS age (or other entitlement changes) are a necessary part of the discussion, military cannot be a sacred cow.  What do we NEED to be effective in the United States foreign policy goals?

The problem is, the question is both political and military.  The military always wants more.  Politicians are erratic.  So the actual analysis will probably never happen until it is panic time (either because we spent ourselves broke, or because Pearl Harbor again was bombed and we had a scant military).


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 11, 2014, 11:40:53 pm
There have been several highly visible times when the military has requested to NOT have a particular weapon system, and Congress rammed it down their throat anyway.  Newt Gingrich was really big on this, since he needed to keep "his" $4 + billion a year coming to Cobb County during his regime....



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: nathanm on February 12, 2014, 06:46:54 pm
There have been several highly visible times when the military has requested to NOT have a particular weapon system, and Congress rammed it down their throat anyway.  Newt Gingrich was really big on this, since he needed to keep "his" $4 + billion a year coming to Cobb County during his regime....

Funny how it's almost always the biggest whiners who are the source of the largest portion of pork.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: guido911 on February 12, 2014, 08:23:23 pm
Funny how it's almost always the biggest whiners who are the source of the largest portion of pork.

How much did you get?  :P


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2014, 06:36:35 pm
How much did you get?  :P


Newt got 4 billion a year.  Jim Inhofe got 125 million for his buddies to push lead mine tailings around with bulldozers in Picher, OK.  No clean up - just pushing mine tailings around....rather than just buying everyone out for 30 to 40 million, and saved us 80 million!!  But that wouldn't get into his buddies pockets, then would it??





Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Ed W on February 18, 2014, 09:31:40 pm
Rep. Jim Bridenstein voted against a $50 billion aid package for hurricane relief on the east coast.

Rep. Bridenstein wants a phased array weather radar system for Oklahoma. As yet, there's no price tag.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Red Arrow on February 18, 2014, 11:29:54 pm
Rep. Jim Bridenstein voted against a $50 billion aid package for hurricane relief on the east coast.

I seem to remember some turd of an attachment to that aid package.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Hoss on February 18, 2014, 11:41:24 pm
I seem to remember some turd of an attachment to that aid package.


And yet when pressed about federal relief for Oklahoma tornado victims LAST year, all the Oklahoma senators and reps were adamant that we should get it.

Hypocrisy at its finest.  I guess we deserve who we voted for.   :-\


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Red Arrow on February 19, 2014, 07:33:27 am
And yet when pressed about federal relief for Oklahoma tornado victims LAST year, all the Oklahoma senators and reps were adamant that we should get it.

Hypocrisy at its finest.  I guess we deserve who we voted for.   :-\

I believe the no vote for NJ was not about the aid for NJ but about the attached turd.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 19, 2014, 08:32:07 am
And yet when pressed about federal relief for Oklahoma tornado victims LAST year, all the Oklahoma senators and reps were adamant that we should get it.

Hypocrisy at its finest.  I guess we deserve who we voted for.   :-\

We trotted down this road at the time.  It was nothing more than partisan media hacks trying to make something out of nothing.  The Sandy bill contained all sorts of non-related items like road repair funding for the Virgin Islands and other expenditures for items not even close to the hurricane zone.

Tell me this isn’t inflammatory BS

Quote
How's this for chutzpah. Both U.S. senators from Oklahoma, Sen. James Inhofe and Sen. Tom Coburn in January voted against the supplemental appropriations bill to the FEMA disaster relief fund that was targeted to provide relief for the victims of Hurricane Sandy that tore into New York and New Jersey.

Inhofe called the Sandy appropriations bill a "slush fund" because it included infrastructure spending and funds for projects aimed at future disasters beyond Sandy.

Coburn voted against the Sandy relief fund because it wasn't offset by budget savings elsewhere.

Now comes the monster tornado that ripped through Moore, Oklahoma on Monday killing some 20 children and adults, leveling homes, an elementary school and other buildings with 200 mile an hour winds and Coburn said in a statement, "As a ranking member of the Senate committee that oversees FEMA, I can assure Oklahomans that any and all available aid will be delivered without delay".

As for Inhofe he "vowed" that the Moore Tornado victims wouldn't abuse federal aid as he said occurred in the aftermath of Sandy, (as if the victims of Sandy in New York and New Jersey weren't deserving of relief [as now Oklahomans will be] in the aftermath of the Moore Tornado).

Let's face it; these two yahoos are only concerned when disaster strikes their constituents and to hell with the victims beyond Oklahoma.

It's as if there are two Americas, "our good people in Oklahoma who are deserving of relief aid while those "Yankees" up north are just profligate moochers looking to abuse relief effort funds and certainly aren't deserving of relief.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Hypocrisy-from-Oklahoma-Se-by-Dave-Lefcourt-130522-702.html

There is also a difference between a dumpster load of special spending and asking for aid from previously established funds.  Coburn correctly noted that even though total damage estimates were in the range of $2 billion, a large portion of that were insured losses which would be paid for by insurance companies with the actual need from the feds for the under-insured and infrastructure in the range of $200 to $300 million.  In other words no need for a special bill with a bunch of un-related projects in California or “future mitigation” projects for Del Rio, Texas.

Quote
Tom Coburn: Tornado Relief Bill Unnecessary, 'Washington Creating A Crisis' To 'Advantage Themselves'

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) fired back Thursday at those who have criticized him for demanding that any disaster aid package for Oklahoma tornado victims include offsets, or matching spending cuts elsewhere in the budget. The money is already available to help his constituents, Coburn argued, suggesting that lawmakers only want to pass an unpaid-for disaster aid package so they can tuck other unrelated items in it to benefit their home states.

"It's just typical Washington B.S.," Coburn said during an interview on MSNBC's "Morning Joe." "There's $11.6 billion sitting in a bank account waiting to help people in Oklahoma ... It's a crass political game because I was being asked these questions before we even pulled the dead people out of the rubble."

Coburn, one of the most fiscally conservative lawmakers in Congress, is right about $11.6 billion being available. But it's not because he had anything to do with it. Congress approved $18.5 billion for disaster relief for 2013, with most of those funds -- $11.5 billion -- approved after Hurricane Sandy. Coburn vocally opposed both packages, but lawmakers decided then none of that emergency aid should be subject to offsets. The amount of money left in that fund is at about $11.6 billion, which means it can be pulled to respond to the Oklahoma storm -- without offsets.

Coburn then went on in the MSNBC interview to suggest that "most of the property damage" from the tornadoes was "insured." The senator claimed it would "be a 200, 250, maybe 300 million dollar cost to the federal government out of the FEMA fund" and accused Washington of "creating a crisis when none exists so they can advantage themselves."

The tornado that struck Moore, Okla., this week, killing at least 24, is estimated to have left more than $2 billion of damage in its path.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/tom-coburn-tornado-relief_n_3324948.html


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Hoss on February 19, 2014, 08:38:20 am
We trotted down this road at the time.  It was nothing more than partisan media hacks trying to make something out of nothing.  The Sandy bill contained all sorts of non-related items like road repair funding for the Virgin Islands and other expenditures for items not even close to the hurricane zone.

Tell me this isn’t inflammatory BS

There is also a difference between a dumpster load of special spending and asking for aid from previously established funds.  Coburn correctly noted that even though total damage estimates were in the range of $2 billion, a large portion of that were insured losses which would be paid for by insurance companies with the actual need from the feds for the under-insured and infrastructure in the range of $200 to $300 million.  In other words no need for a special bill with a bunch of un-related projects in California or “future mitigation” projects for Del Rio, Texas.


My point is that it goes to the NIMBY thought processes of those in Congress.  If it didn't happen in my back yard, tough smile.  People make it sound like democrats spend more than republicans.  At least republicans would like people to think that.  How about that Iraq war that miraculously got kept off the books?


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 19, 2014, 09:13:13 am
My point is that it goes to the NIMBY thought processes of those in Congress.  If it didn't happen in my back yard, tough smile.  People make it sound like democrats spend more than republicans.  At least republicans would like people to think that.  How about that Iraq war that miraculously got kept off the books?

You are completely missing the point because the media conflated two entirely different issues.  No one was against FEMA disaster aid and relief coming to the victims of Hurricane Sandy immediately after the storm.  They got their aid as quickly as FEMA could move after the storm. 

The media immediately screamed: “Hypocrisy!” after the Moore tornado because Inhofe and Coburn said they would push for aid for storm victims from existing funding streams.

GOP members were voting against a supplemental aid package to help re-build after Sandy which also included funding for projects nowhere close to the damage zone from that storm.  That’s not the same thing as saying: “We are against any and all aid for Sandy victims". 

Our delegation wasn’t against aid for Sandy victims, they were against a supplemental funding bill which had all sorts of goodies for members of Congress who did not represent areas affected by Sandy.  Had someone drafted a supplemental funding bill for Moore tornado victims with a truckload of other projects for North Dakota and Montana, I’m pretty well sure the Oklahoma delegation would have voted against it, especially with Coburn being such a budget hawk.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: nathanm on February 19, 2014, 05:08:00 pm
I get it. Sandy happened, thus causing the Feds to top up the FEMA fund. That was "new" spending. But since it didn't all get spent on Sandy relief, the remaining funds weren't new spending. In other words, doublespeak.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 19, 2014, 07:48:18 pm
You boys sure can't stay on topic...this was about military spending and the loose accounting from the Pentagon...

According to this site, http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

57% of all discretionary spending for the President is already committed to the military. Arguing about anything else (including disaster relief) is pennies in comparison.

Military spending is out of control and we need a President and Congress with the balls to reign it in.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Red Arrow on February 19, 2014, 10:31:51 pm
You boys sure can't stay on topic...

Surprised?



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Gaspar on February 20, 2014, 10:00:01 am

Military spending is out of control and we need a President and Congress with the balls to reign it in.

Never happen in a hundred years.  Sequester was the closest we can get.
(http://www.armradio.am/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Obama-laughing-380x230.jpg)


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 20, 2014, 11:20:25 am
It can happen. If not, then everything about Washington DC is wrong and we should just go back to the feudal system.

We just need to hold politicians accountable and let them know that we want less military spending. The seniors from World War II and Korea won't be around forever. They are being replaced by Vietnam era seniors who don't see war the same way.

If we truly asked voters if they if they would accept a large tax decrease in exchange for a 10% reduction in military spending, they would support it. Instead we argue about small budget items like unemployment and food stamps.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Gaspar on February 20, 2014, 11:39:22 am
If we truly asked voters if they if they would accept a large tax decrease in exchange for a 10% reduction in military spending, they would support it. Instead we argue about small budget items like unemployment and food stamps.
Two unfortunate reasons that won't happen:

1. The moment someone blows up their shoe on a plane, or takes out one of our embassies, whoever sponsored any reduction in military readiness, will be eviscerated.  The military frequently uses this angle to bolster support, and will be quick to point out anyone that had a hand in diminishing their funding.

2. Politicians on both sides will see any reduction in military spending as an opportunity to create new entitlements first.  Any money returned to the tax payers will be only a token of the amount saved. We will keep expanding our list of items that American's "have a right to," and the money will simply get shifted to other pockets.



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 20, 2014, 06:05:19 pm
Your cynical attitude is one of the problems.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Ed W on February 20, 2014, 08:05:54 pm
So the military lost $8.5 trillion since 1998. Okay. That's only a portion of their budget. Meanwhile, the projected 10 year cost for Obamacare is around $2 trillion.

Why is it okay to spend or lose trillions of dollars for a military that can kill someone on the far side of the planet within minutes or hours, yet it's somehow wrong to save lives of our fellow citizens? This isn't a monetary question. It's a moral one.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Red Arrow on February 20, 2014, 10:15:21 pm
So the military lost $8.5 trillion since 1998. Okay. That's only a portion of their budget. Meanwhile, the projected 10 year cost for Obamacare is around $2 trillion.

Why is it okay to spend or lose trillions of dollars for a military that can kill someone on the far side of the planet within minutes or hours, yet it's somehow wrong to save lives of our fellow citizens? This isn't a monetary question. It's a moral one.

It would be a lot more preferable to let the enemy come to us like we did in 1941.  Well, maybe not.

It gets down to what each of us think the functions of government should be.



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 21, 2014, 07:32:01 am
Again, using irrational fear is part of the problem.

How do you ever leave the house? There are bad guys out there.

I believe we can have reasonable military expenses just like we can have reasonable security in our homes. You can take reasonable steps to be safe.

To compare this, we would spend 57% of all discretionary expenses on home security. Add up your food bill, your gas,water and electricity expenses, your phone, cable, internet charges, any clothing, cleaning or appliances, and throw in your cost for educating your kids or feeding your pets, then spend all that plus more on home security.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Chacha on February 21, 2014, 09:10:27 am
I believe defense of the country is covered in our Federal Constitution.  However, I have questions about the applicability of a whole lot of the rest of what we spend Federal dollars on.

Beyond that, I also know there is a tremendous amount of waste and graft in our defense budget.  The problem has been around for a long time and our system enables and encourages it.  I believe we should make our Representatives and Senators stay in their respective state capitals and do business electronically.  At least this would make the lobbyist chore more difficult and expensive.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2014, 11:30:32 am
So the military lost $8.5 trillion since 1998. Okay. That's only a portion of their budget. Meanwhile, the projected 10 year cost for Obamacare is around $2 trillion.

Why is it okay to spend or lose trillions of dollars for a military that can kill someone on the far side of the planet within minutes or hours, yet it's somehow wrong to save lives of our fellow citizens? This isn't a monetary question. It's a moral one.

If that really were the intention of Obamacare, but it’s not.  Maybe the hyperbole says it’s for that purpose.

I don’t think anyone disagrees that there is still tons of waste at the Pentagon which is going unmitigated.  It’s a classic example of run-away bureaucracy and it goes largely unchallenged because Senators and Representatives are loathe to be pegged with disrespecting military brass by hauling generals and admirals in to be deposed about such waste in a Congressional hearing.  If they propose defense cuts it’s always touted as they are against veterans and they are stripping away the necessary tools troops need to defend themselves and our country. 

Never mind that there’s probably far more in the defense budget than necessary for administrative costs.  The problem is, when you have a system that allows someone to become a self-policing potentate of their own chunk of government, they will do anything to keep from losing money from their own budget.  Department leaders are asked to audit their department and get rid of all non-essential tasks and employees.  It never happens.  They circle the wagons and justify every penny plus why they need even more next year.

Put The Pentagon on a diet.  Make them sort out on their own what is essential and what isn’t.  That’s what has happened with other departments in the sequester.  Problem is, no one in Congress or executive branch has the balls to do it for the reasons I explained above.

Government has become all about power and self-preservation, not serving the people as it’s first mission.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 21, 2014, 12:21:35 pm
Put The Pentagon on a diet.  Make them sort out on their own what is essential and what isn’t.  That’s what has happened with other departments in the sequester.  Problem is, no one in Congress or executive branch has the balls to do it for the reasons I explained above.

We are essentially at peace right now. We are not engaged in any major war and there seems to be less tension world-wide right now than there has been in my lifetime.

Now is the time to ask the Pentagon to take the same cuts as every other part of our federal government.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2014, 01:32:32 pm
We are essentially at peace right now. We are not engaged in any major war and there seems to be less tension world-wide right now than there has been in my lifetime.

Now is the time to ask the Pentagon to take the same cuts as every other part of our federal government.

I don’t know that I necessarily agree about their being less tension.  For certain, we have done quite a bit to thin the ranks of foreign terrorist groups the last 12 years.  But, there’s always another asshat hiding behind the next rock looking to start his own jihad and plenty of religious fundamentalists ready to join the next cause.

As far as your comment on timing I agree.  The reason it likely won’t happen is because no one wants to be accused of having “cut defense to the bone” when the next call to action happens.  It will happen, we just don’t know when.  We like being the world’s top cop because it keeps The Pentagon relevant and a priority in the budget.  Remember, Clinton was largely blamed for troops being ill-equipped at the start of the Iraqi and Afghani conflicts because he had thinned down the military under his watch.

Understand, I don’t approve of this logic, I’m simply pointing out why this continues.  It won’t change until we get representatives and leaders who are willing to do what is best for the country instead of worrying what is in their best self-interest.  To that end, I’m not sure how we can make that happen other than term limits but that’s apparently a dead concept.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Hoss on February 21, 2014, 01:35:16 pm
I don’t know that I necessarily agree about their being less tension.  For certain, we have done quite a bit to thin the ranks of foreign terrorist groups the last 12 years.  But, there’s always another asshat hiding behind the next rock looking to start his own jihad and plenty of religious fundamentalists ready to join the next cause.

As far as your comment on timing I agree.  The reason it likely won’t happen is because no one wants to be accused of having “cut defense to the bone” when the next call to action happens.  It will happen, we just don’t know when.  We like being the world’s top cop because it keeps The Pentagon relevant and a priority in the budget.  Remember, Clinton was largely blamed for troops being ill-equipped at the start of the Iraqi and Afghani conflicts because he had thinned down the military under his watch.

Understand, I don’t approve of this logic, I’m simply pointing out why this continues.  It won’t change until we get representatives and leaders who are willing to do what is best for the country instead of worrying what is in their best self-interest.  To that end, I’m not sure how we can make that happen other than term limits but that’s apparently a dead concept.

Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby money from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents need outta government or else the status quo remains.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 21, 2014, 02:05:28 pm
Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby moneyrelated to lobbyist of from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents need outta government or else the status quo remains.

When you have 100 lobbyist related to 78 congress members you won't stop it any time soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9CfKkpOJ4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9CfKkpOJ4)


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2014, 02:25:40 pm
Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby money from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents rodents need outta government or else the status quo remains.

Fixed your quote for improved accuracy.

That’s the other sticky issue on Pentagon spending.  It adds up to really good paying jobs in many home districts.  The double-speak about government spending being evil put forth by GOP members sounds pretty hollow when they keep heaping more money into military budgets.

I believe the administration would also be reluctant on any major cut-backs right now as that would be a blow on economic growth.  Like it or not, military spending is a large driver in our economy.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Gaspar on February 21, 2014, 03:27:51 pm
Fixed your quote for improved accuracy.

That’s the other sticky issue on Pentagon spending.  It adds up to really good paying jobs in many home districts.  The double-speak about government spending being evil put forth by GOP members sounds pretty hollow when they keep heaping more money into military budgets.

I believe the administration would also be reluctant on any major cut-backs right now as that would be a blow on economic growth.  Like it or not, military spending is a large driver in our economy.

You know, you have a good point there.

When you look at just a small handful of the thousands of companies that make up the list of US military contractors, you get an interesting snapshot of the jobs affected.
Boeing Employees: 169,071
Northrop Grumman: 65,000
Lockheed Martin: 115,000
Raytheon: 68,000
General Dynamics: 92,200
United Technologies: 41,000

Companies like these rely on the Defense contracts not only for R&D towards new defense products and the production of contracted materials and equipment, but they also use that development to create products that are sold to other countries.

The way most of these companies are balanced, DOD spending reductions would hit them hard. Lockheed Martin, for instance, has a yearly operating budget of $47 billion and receives $37 billion of that each year from DOD contracts. Even a small reduction in defense spending would put them upside down, and not only cause labor force disruption, but massive investor disruption.  Basically many of these monster DOD contractors make up a good bit of the foundations of our economy, not to mention employing lots of folks.  

If you think deeper, the materials procurement required by all or any of these companies involves hundreds and thousands of suppliers who's businesses and employees also rely on the funding to trickle down through the relationship chain.  Thinking even a bit deeper I actually have a client who supplies contract parts to one of these companies as their almost singular vertical.  They lose that, and I actually lose revenue.

Ahh, the webs we weave when we let the government become a primary consumer in any market segment. Inflated prices, graft, and corporate dependence.  Can you imagine what would happen if we had single payer medical care and they became the primary consumer in that market?  We would likely have free bottles of aspirin that cost $1,000 each to produce.
(http://exurbanpedestrian.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/captainhyperbole2.jpg)

When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. – P.J. O'Rourke


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2014, 03:49:46 pm
Yep, there are untold thousands of 10-100 employee companies who feed parts and processes to Boeing, LM, GD, etc.  Many of them are scattered throughout the state.  For that matter, they are scattered all over other states as well.  Cuts to defense has far-reaching consequences.  If bureaucracies were capable of self-policing, I bet you could cut the administrative budget at The Pentagon by 10-15% and no one would notice after a year or so in terms of any lost functionality.  Same can be said for many government agencies.  When jobs are given out as perks and paybacks rather than based on need, this is what happens.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 21, 2014, 04:19:32 pm
Let's make something else.

All those companies making billion dollar fighter jets can make fuel efficient passenger aircraft. All the companies making billion dollars war ships can make passenger cruise and ferry boats.

Spend the same amount but make stuff we can use or sell.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 21, 2014, 04:21:12 pm
Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Gaspar on February 21, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
Let's make something else.

All those companies making billion dollar fighter jets can make fuel efficient passenger aircraft. All the companies making billion dollars war ships can make passenger cruise and ferry boats.

Spend the same amount but make stuff we can use or sell.

I like the words, but the tune is hard to hum.



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Red Arrow on February 21, 2014, 05:48:19 pm
Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

I had an engineer friend (since deceased) that worked at Zebco for a while.  He once claimed (before working there) that he loved to work and extra hours didn't bother him even as salary exempt.  Zebco changed his mind.



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2014, 05:49:45 pm
Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

Actually they weren't that kind of bomb, it was used for a type of oil well fracking.  They were something like a small torpedo used to bring in an oil well.  

They were approached by Jasper Hull who had come up with a novel spinning reel and arrived in Tulsa with his last $20, his prototype reel, wife and kids.  His grandson has been a friend for years and the stories are epic.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/Z/ZE001.html

Many of those military contractors do produce vehicles and components for civilian transportation.  One nice spill over from DoD spending that I enjoy is GPS technology.  I've got it in my phone, I use it on my bikes.  The civilian transportation system relies heavily on it.

Of course, market forces dictate how much those companies will build in the way of civilian craft.  When the economy slows, orders for those vehicles slows.  Not necessarily so with the military.  I guess the government could just as easily take money out of the military budget and have those contractors build lavish ships and aircraft to give away as gifts to developing nations.  Instead of killing insurgents, we could simply send them on lavish cruises for weeks on end and maybe they would cease to hate us.  Maybe we'd feel a lot better if we did that rather than building warcraft?

If the government spent that money to provide aircraft to domestic carriers or new cruise ships for Carnival, it would be derided as more corporate welfare. 

On a serious note, I appreciate your idealism and I agree, we spend way way too much at the DoD, but what do we use as methadone to wean that department off it's huge budget habit?

I'd love to pay less in taxes, I'm quite certain the DoD ends up with their fair share out the check I write every year.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: nathanm on March 01, 2014, 10:32:16 pm
If the government spent that money to provide aircraft to domestic carriers or new cruise ships for Carnival, it would be derided as more corporate welfare.

Speaking only for myself, my main problem with corporate welfare is not the inherent idea. My problem with it is that it is doled out based on backroom deals and influence peddling, and almost completely ignored in the national discourse, where all we hear about is the "job creators" who are "under attack." If that is what we as a society decide to do after an open and frank debate, so be it. Some kinds of things that could be called corporate welfare, like the shift of more and more basic scientific research from being financed by corporations to being financed by the government, whether it be DARPA or NSF or whichever agency, I have no problem with on any level. I like basic science to be open rather than locked away in a file drawer somewhere.

When it is shielded from the political process, that is something government does reasonably well.

Given the present environment of essentially legalized bribery, the revolving door between regulators and particularly cushy industry jobs, and refusal to acknowledge the subsidies that are dumped on basically everybody, however, the whole concept annoys the piss out of me.


Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2014, 03:46:49 pm
Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.


Zero Hour Bomb Company made electric detonators for fracturing oil formations while drilling.  (Drill a hole, sleeve it, the perforate at the level of the formation of interest.)



Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2014, 04:02:43 pm

Many of those military contractors do produce vehicles and components for civilian transportation.  One nice spill over from DoD spending that I enjoy is GPS technology.  I've got it in my phone, I use it on my bikes.  The civilian transportation system relies heavily on it.


And yet, here you are enjoying the benefits of another one of those DOD projects - a DARPA project that was championed and in great part due to the efforts of one key person for the funding!  And you have been one of the "deniers" in the past about it - the Internet. 

As for Al claiming to 'invent' the internet - well, the reality, as is so often with Fox, completely different.  He never did claim that.  Fox just lied about it, as they do about so many things.  Robert Kahn and Vint Cerf on the other hand, have stated jointly - "Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development."

Who are they, one might ask?  That is LAE for the casual observer to investigate themselves.






Title: Re: Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2014, 04:04:19 pm
Speaking only for myself, my main problem with corporate welfare is not the inherent idea.


"What's good for GM is good for the country...."