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http://www.newson6.com/story/24277891/passenger-rail-set-to-connect-okc-tulsa (http://www.newson6.com/story/24277891/passenger-rail-set-to-connect-okc-tulsa)

Would it not make more sense for the train to run all the way into Tulsa, instead of Sapulpa. Can someone please explain to me why would I, a Tulsa resident, drive from Tulsa to Sapulpa, then park my car to get on a train, that will be slower than me driving there and more expensive?

So we now have the option to drive to Sapulpa, catch a train to Midwest City and connect to a bus that will take us to OKC for 70 bucks?

Sweet.

Where in Tulsa? What facilities are available? I know OKC has a terminal at Bricktown so that is curious why they chose Midwest city, but may have to do with rail condition and rights of use from here to there. The crossings are the hindrance right now.

I think this is a limited service to serve as a sort of pilot program. If they are using Sapulpa downtown that is a nicely preserved old downtown. I would do it to visit family and go to a Thunder game. If I had tickets.

For decades we've listened to naysayers who insist rail won't work for Tulsa while other cities have pursued it. We're way behind now.

So finally we do this at a pilot level and it's Sapulpa to MWC?
Somebody doesn't want it to succeed.

That's like test marketing a new lollipop with dogsh1t in the middle of it then wondering why it wasn't an immediate hit.

It would be fun to take a train ride but I don't want to spend a whole day in OKC.

The schedule appears to cater to getting Tulsans to OKC but not OKC persons to Tulsa.  :(

No its not. This is the system that is feasible at the moment and communities that are supportive. You don't just build up a passenger rail system overnight and replace freight rail cars to make it look like a great success. That is a recipe for catastrophe. The demand for rail traffic is there. The infrastructure needs attention.

With your view, the Christmas train would also be a huge failure. We couldn't even get tickets.

I think right now this is attractive to groups like schools, clubs, reunions, retired and other special interests heading to OKC. They can rent a rail car, socialize on the way up to see the capitol, the Murrah, Bricktown, Thunder or conventions and not have to worry about driving much. These groups are likely to be more forgiving of the slower speeds, the crossing slowdowns and the connections with coach buses.

Some OKC to Tulsa usage would happen but we have to do a better job of creating and marketing attractions to pull them here. I had lots of patronage from OKC when I ran airboats on the Arkansas river. They came specifically for that trip. We have specific attractions like the Deco district, Brady, and the Arena but are lagging behind OKC in those destinations imo.

Saying these things out loud makes the homers angry, but we must face the result of our own intransigence.

I'd like to see high speed rail service between Tulsa and Fort Worth/Dallas and north to Omaha, NE non-stop. That is a train  I would use... Tulsa to D/FW would serve a large area and alot of people. It'll be great to have Tulsa connected to such a huge metro area as D/FW only a few hours away by high speed train.

So would I. It already exists from OKC to Dallas. Recent discussions have mentioned connections to KC that would bypass Tulsa!

High speed is another matter and is relative. Without upgrading crossings, the trains have to slow down, then speed up at every town. It will take a long term view with federal/state investment that is currently being used for highways, airports and turnpikes.

Maybe you could whisper in Ms. Fallin's ear?

If the train is not high speed it may be more easy and more economical to drive that distance rather than sit 5 hours or so on a slow rattling train and then rent a car when you arrive. I'd like to see  high speed rail of 150 mph or 200 mph in the USA like they have in Japan & Europe, then you can arrive in Fort Worth in two hours or so making the train trip worth while, and that will beat the long drive to D/FW-- but that's just me.

Won't ever happen. If you do the math, it isn't necessary either. Factor in fuel, tolls, parking fees, insurance, vehicle wear/tear, cost of vehicle, convenience of being able to work, read, sleep and socialize and you find even a slow train is a better value than fighting semi's and drunks on the turnpikes. But that's just math and logic.

Possibly.

I'll be curious to see what the number of riders they need for a successful pilot and how many they actually get. I just struggle to see enough interest in train service to go to Sapulpa to train to Midwest City.

But, this is better than nothing and I'll take anything that is something to get this going :)

My impression as well.  I just dont see a density of disposable income (and $70+ does seem steep) in those locals, but it wouldnt disappoint me in the least to end up being wrong.

I have to agree with you and Weatherdemon on this, but it is an interesting idea. Just eyeballing it on Google Earth, the most likely place to get off in Midwest city is around NE 4th Street and N Sunnylane Road. It gets interesting at that location because there are tracks that continue west from there, part are abandoned next to ACOG which is next to the Amtrak Station. (the rails are there but they are overgrown and out of service) I agree that it seems expensive, and the dates for the pilot runs are meh. The biggest thing that I see from the article is you leave Sapulpa at 8:00AM and guesstimate that you get to MWC around 11:00AM, and you have to be back around 3:00PM to get back to Sapulpa at 6:30PM so that gives you 3 hours approximately. Not much time to do anything. And at $204.00 for a mom, dad and one child how many people are willing to part with that for a trip to OKC?

It's an interesting concept for a trial run, but it just has FAIL written all over it.

If I'm on 44 heading to Sapulpa with the family, would I stop there and do the whole train thing or would I pay the turnpike authority for a 75 - 85 mph nonstop to OKC?

How is this supposed to succeed?

OKC is about an hour from the Sapulpa exit, add another 10 minutes to downtown OKC, plus having the freedom of your own vehicle to venture outside Bricktown to mid-town, etc.  Personally, I might do it once just for the nostalgia of a train ride as it’s really not practical for anything MC or I would be doing in the OKC area.

75-85 MPH non-stop on the Turner?

I've never done that in 25 years of driving to OKC.

A 30 minute drive to Sapulpa to spend $250 after taxes and fees for my family to take a 3 hour train ride to Midwest to rent a car/spend another $80 for round trip cab fair, to go to the City for just over 2 hours before leaving to take the rental back and riding 3 hours back to Sapulpa on the train then driving 30 minutes home.

That's at least $350 in travel costs and 7 hours of travel for only 2 full hours in a non-destination city 2 hours away by car and $70 in gas.

I'm sorry but I have zero interest in that.

I would just as soon drive the +/-2 hours on the always under construction turnpike to OKC, do my business as long I want to, then drive home for a tank of gas and tolls.

What are you driving?  That sounds like 10 MPG.

The speed limit on the turnpike is 75 and you can easily go 5-10 mph over that with no problem. It's 88 miles and I can usually do that in just over an hour for about $10 in gas.

In the mid 90's, I dated someone in Edmond, and I would get off work at 6PM and meet her for drinks in just over two hours, or the opposite, she could leave there at 5PM and be at my place shortly after I got off work. Like I said the train is a neat idea, but just not practical. More frequent trips both ways would work depending on how much freight is moved back and forth along that route. As noted, where the line goes into MWC just two miles away is the Amtrak Station, so it could possibly work, but how to get the price down? ***cough, cough, subsidies, cough, cough***

This is something i spent some time researching. The figures you guys are using aren't accurate from my experience. Weatherdemon is way off.  Yes, if you're under 45yrs old, drive 85mph or better and cut in front of the lines from (constant) narrowed down turnpike for construction repairs, tailgate because you're on a mission and don't stop to use the restroom, and don't get a ticket for speeding, then get free parking at your destination....yes its possible to do the 95 miles in 1:15 so that you can slow down in OKC traffic that is heading to the same football game or arena event you are. At 3.50 gal gas, $10 is 2.5 gals or about 40mpg. Not happening for most folks. AND if you slow down and look around, most of those cars are one or two passengers. A lot of waste to be have the freedom to drive around a metro most are not familiar with.

 Also bear in mind that insurance companies are offering discounts if you use tracking devices that measure your speed, distance and driving habits. Exceed 80mph and you get dinged. It isn't a pilot program. Its the future of insurance coverage.

Mostly, you guys aren't seeing the bigger picture. This route isn't the solution. Its an invitation, a pr route, a chance to discuss alternate ways of visiting our state by a huge population that isn't in the same place you are with careers, family, cars etc.

When the holiday is over I'll share my figures and you can pick at them.

Gas is currently $2.89’ish, I average 26 to 28 mpg with my Sonata on the highway, that’s $10.55 in gas one way and averaging 79/80 mph, that’s 72 minutes.  And no, that’s not driving like a jackass at 80.

Again, it’s got great nostalgia factor, but for our independent auto-centric mind-set out here in the prairie land, it’s simply not a “practical” mode of transportation for most of us.

However, as Conan noted, gas is a bit less than $3.50/gal at the moment.

Why wait?  Merry Christmas, or whatever you celebrate.   :D

I timed this drive recently from downtown Tulsa to downtown OKC.  Aside from minor construction delays outside downtown Tulsa and on the Turnpike, and slower traffic on I-235 in OKC, the whole trip took 1 hour 40 minutes non-stop.  

I think for any kind of train to work it would have to go from downtown to downtown, be high speed and be a part of a larger network (Chicago-St Louis-Tulsa-OKC-Dallas-Houston).  Otherwise the distance is too short and the drive is really easy (heavy traffic but not slow).

My amount on gas was high for the point.

If there is curiosity I fill up with 91 octane real gas as that is what my car is tuned for. I get 21-22MPG on the highway and average about 68MPH on the Turner when driving 83-84 in the 75 when people are kind enough to let you by and 50-60 in the construction zones.
So if I only spend $35-$40 in gas, it just makes the train that much less of an option if I'm basing it strictly on finances.

I love the idea. I want train service. My only issues with this pilot are the pick up and drop off points and the limited time you have in OKC with it.

I certainly hope enough interest is generated with this to get something permanent in place!!!

Note: I have nothing to do with this operation in any way. I merely remember rail travel from Tulsa as a youth to Kansas City and marvel at how we let it get away in favor of personal cars.

Why use the lower cost for gasl.? You think it will last? I use a higher figure that is less than what the high point has been, but is more meaningful for analysis. Then I wonder why no one includes toll fees? Or destination parking fees? Or the cost of insurance (small for sure but a cost nonetheless). Same thing for wear/tear on your vehicle and the depreciation of value due to mileage. Maintenance too.

Maybe its just the accounting classes from college but it seems to me that if you are a regular traveller, these costs are real. If you simply are going to visit family occasionally, not so much.

And what do you value the cost of your personal time as a driver negotiating a high speed, two lane road clogged with idiot drivers, lots of semi's and potential speeding tickets. I have never been on the turnpike when they weren't working on it somewhere.

There are more invisible costs but lets just stop here because the real complaint most of you have is that it is not convenient being in Sapulpa and arriving in MIdwest City. Even though they include a coach bus for connections to destinations, it is still slow and expensive. I agree. Shall we wait for Tulsa to build (or retake) a Union Depot? Won't happen. Little support here. Shall we price it to compete with drivers who likely wouldn't take it under most circumstances anyway? Not a good business plan. Shall we wait till trips to KC and Dallas are available? How long we been waiting already?

So, you work with what you have and hope to generate some enthusiasm, some problem solving and catch up with metros that have already faced, and overcome, these complaints. You also realize that the future is not going to look like this frozen moment in time. Your kids will grow up. Your patience will wear thin for drunks and tailgaters. More importantly, trends for the next generation show less commitment to personal transportation (other than bikes) and more to mass. The huge baby boom group is giving up cars in favor of mass transit.  They both want to enjoy the trip, get a little business done, read, perhaps legally consume some fine intoxicants and then take in a concert or a museum without hassle.

We can sit by and complain about how it isn't what we want or we could embrace the baby steps as a start. Oh, yeah, Joyeaux Noel to you all and Bonne' Annee'!!

You make some reasonable points, however....
The future price of gas is more valid for a long term analysis than whether I want to go in the near future.  Tolls should certainly be considered.  I too wondered why they were neglected.  I guess everyone has a Pike Pass and tolls become less visible, like income tax withholding.  Parking fees: Probably depends on where you are going in OKC.  If you drive enough to raise your insurance rates then you should probably include them.  Otherwise, driving more miles just lowers your insurance rate per mile. (Kind of like my airplane insurance and other "fixed" costs.  It costs $X.xx per year for the privilege of having it available.  If I fly, the hourly equivalent drops.)  Wear/tear and maintenance are pretty much the same thing but most of use allow some of the newness of a car to fade. I am thinking of minor paint chips,  seat belts that don't look brand new, radio knobs/buttons with faded icons, etc.  That is part of depreciated value.  Engine, tranny, running gear etc are certainly to be addressed.  I don't plan to sell my car so the depreciated value on a car with 177000. miles is probably negligible.  A coach connection is provided but does the $70/per person include the coach ride from MWC to OKC and return to the train?  I missed it if "they" said the price of the coach is included.


I don't work while on public transit due to childhood tendencies toward motion sickness.  I hardly even read the magazines on airlines.  If the train is not competitive time-wise, my personal time is better served by driving.  I thought the Tuner Turnpike is a 4 lane (or more) divided highway.  I am very unlikely to travel on two lane route 66 (or whatever it is now).  High speed?  I got to drive the Autobahn in Germany a bit.  That was high speed to me (I got to go 200 Km/hr, 125 mph).  The German drivers are a LOT more disciplined than Americans though. In 1995 there seemed to be two main groups, the 80 mph crowd and the 100 mph crowd. There was always someone faster too.  Semi trucks are driven by professional drivers.  Mostly they are not a big problem if you pay attention.  I don't worry about speeding tickets since I am usually pretty close to the speed limit.  (I also carefully come to a full stop at stop signs while looking in my mirrors.)  I do admit to not always using my turn signal if no one is close enough to need to know what I am doing next. It must be the BMW influence. ;D   I haven't been on the Turner Turnpike for a few years so I'll bow to others' experience regarding construction delays.


If the plan is to see if there is sufficient interest in an excursion train, then the Sapulpa/MWC can maybe work.   The cost and time is less relevant for that mode than for a regular transit mode.  I am concerned that this plan is to find the interest in rail for regular travelers.  If it fails because it doesn't serve regular travelers, then we may be worse off for future rail transit by means of a faulty test program.  

Frohliche Weihnachten (I don't know how to get the two dots over the "o".)
Feliz Navidad

My Infinity gets 27 mph on the highway, I use 91 octane currently at $2.98 a gallon, the turnpike is 88 miles and outside of construction I drive 83 MPH on it. That's a shade over an hour for $9, plus toll, which I have no idea of the cost because of my Pikepass that I use basically daily.

So you're a criminal with a nice car who lives closer to the turnpike than I do! The speed limit is 75, it is 95 miles from my home near downtown and the toll is $4 each way. My Edge gets about 25mpg hwy at 75mph on low octane. Respectfully, you are not in the demographic for rail travel. At least not the rail travel being offered now in Sapulpa.

By staying under 80mph, my insurance company offers me up to a 15% discount on my premium. They know risk increases with speed. I have never been able to make that drive from one gate to the other in under 1hr 15 minutes (average 76mph with slowdowns and stops) and I've been making it since 1969. My son lives in Moore and drives like you. From my house, he can't make it there in less than 1hr 40 min. Of course I have to stop to pay the toll which adds a bit.

This current offering doesn't compare to regular turnpike driving. To me, that isn't the correct comparison to make. It is more suitable for special interest groups, daytrips, innovators, risk aversion personalities (think coach Madden), special events and fun seekers. The trip itself is the destination. It isn't everyday travel stuff. Considering it doesn't have the subsidies available for highways and turnpikes, I doubt it will be profitable. Hopefully it will stimulate some interest.

Too much "1984"ish for me.  Even though I am not doing anything wrong, it's not really anyone's business where I am going or what I am doing and how fast I may have gone for a short period of time.  I also don't want 3rd parties putting anything on my vehicle.

I can relate. Part of my 60's generation legacy is a mistrust of big brother. However, several strong arguments persuaded me. It only measures whether I exceed 80 mph, regularly make panic stops, and tracks mileage and frequency. I can visit the website and see my driving habits quantified. My rates are not increased based on those criteria, but may decrease up to 15% for positive results. Lastly, my car can be tracked down if stolen or buried in a snow bank. Otherwise I am led to believe that they have no interest in particular destinations, only the raw data. If they wanted to snoop on me they could anyway.

I believe this is going to be the norm. It gives the insurance company real results to judge my insurability and I can contest them if I feel it necessary. I see this as not much different than employers doing pre-employment checks. Then those that don't observe good driving habits can pay rates reflecting their real risk.

That's just marketing speak for you will pay 15% more if you don't have "positive results".  That's OK if it works for you.

I understand your other points though.

91 with ethanol is 2.98. Real 91 gas is around 3.39 right now.
Regardless, from Owasso, it's about $40 round trip to OKC in gas for me + the $8 in tolls.

I guess I understand the train ride more about the ride right now than convenience during the pilot.
I hope it gets to a Tulsa to OKC route. I would do that for Thunder games for sure.

I go to OKC often and hate the drive. My costs with tolls averages around $40 to $50.

I am trying to do the February 9th day. Who wants to ride with me?

It is a Sunday and the train leaves Sapulpa at 8:00 am.

When I arrive in OKC I plan to take the free shuttle to the National Cowboy Museum. It is a beautiful building that I could spend hours in.

http://nationalcowboymuseum.org/

When I arrive at the museum the admission is $12.50 for adults, but I have a free ticket. I will do their Sunday brunch buffet for $11.00 It sounds great.
Dining on Persimmon Hill’s

Specialty Chili

Field Greens w/Mandarin Oranges, Craisens; Almonds, Creamy Waldorf Salad, Broccoli Salad, Holiday Pasta Salad, Winter Slaw, Pistachio Salad,

Tender Roast Beef/Smashed Yukon Gold Potatoes, Herb Roasted Pork, Roasted Turkey/Turkey Gravy,

Squash Casserole, Chili Corn Custard/Chipotle Sweet Potatoes, Mixed Steamed Vegetables, Christmas Chicken Fettuccini

Pineapple Spoon Bread, Yeast Rolls

Bread Pudding, Peach Cobbler, Cherry Coconut Christmas Cake, Black Forest Cake, Red Velvet Cake Roll, Maple Cupcakes, Cranberry Walnut Tarts


It will take a few hours to see it all. They have entire rooms showing depictions of parts of the west including a New Mexico room, a Grand Canyon room, a Utah room, a Wyoming suite and a room dedicated to the ocean views of Carmel, California. The 46 foot by 18 foot paintings of the banquet room are stunning. The entire building and grounds have very impressive sculptures.

After about four hours at the museum, the shuttle will take me back to the train station for the return ride home. It is planned to arrive around 6:30 pm.

The cost for everything will be around $150. I will love the ride and enjoy talking, wandering around, even using free wireless or taking pictures of the scenery very much. It should be a great day.  

I am going to buy my tickets next Thursday. Come with me.

No need for anonymity, my name is Rick Westcott and I serve as Chairman of the Tulsa City Council's Passenger Rail Committee.

Maybe I can help the discussion a little bit.  There are several points to discuss, including this special, demonstration project, the merits of a passenger rail connection from Tulsa to OKC, and high speed vs conventional rail service.  Far too much for this post.  

But, please understand, this is only a demonstration project, a weekend-excursion type offering.  It isn't intended to be what might actually be offered, someday.

There are track access issues that prevent this excursion train from actually running from downtown to downtown.  Those issues would be resolved if true downtown to downtown service is offered.

The private company who is offering this excursion train, Iowa Pacific Holdings, has made an offer to ODOT to run eight round trips per day between Tulsa and OKC.  The run-time would be a little over two hours each way, with stops to serve those folks who live in/near Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud and Chandler.  Cost would be in the neighborhood of $60 per round trip.

They also make their offer with NO requirement of a taxpayer subsidy.  For contrast, you and I pay Amtrak about $4 million per year to run the Heartland Flyer from OKC to Fort Worth, and only one round trip per day.

The state owns the line from Sapulpa to OKC, and Burlington, Northern owns the line from Sapulpa to downtown Tulsa.  Thus, the access issue into downtown.  However, BN has indicated a willingness to discuss leasing access.  It just hasnt been worked out for the limited, excursion train.  

Here's the big sticking point.  ODOT is trying to sell the line as fast as they can.  We will only be able to have passenger  rail service if they are prevented from selling it, only if the state still owns it.  We are trying to prevent them selling it, but they are a powerful force.

I hope this helps the discussion.  Please let me know if you have questions.

RDW

How many cars and passengers would they need to make that work?

Thank you Rick for your efforts to bring passenger train service to the Tulsa area.

I trust this service is just a starting point and I will support your efforts any way I can.

Red Arrow,  I really don't know.  I've read Iowa Pacific Holding's offer to ODOT, but I don't have a copy of it. I'll try to get an answer for you.

 I've read several reports on existing passenger service from all over the country and it sounds kind of counter-intuitive, but the greater the frequency of trains, the greater the number of passengers.  In other words, if there are 3, 4 or 5 round trips per day, there are more riders than there would be if there is only one or two round trips per day.  I first thought the additional trains would cannibalize from the first train or two, but it doesn't work out that way.

But, I'll try to get an answer to your question  It may take a day or two.

RDW

For people like me who really have no need to go to OKC  any Tulsa-OKC rail won't be used. I could use rail systems that  go up to Omaha and down to Dallas. That would save me alot of driving. Doing the Tulsa to  OKC to Dallas dance is more hassle and time wasted than it's worth. A direct link from Tulsa to D/FW is what I'd like to see happen. :)

::) The peanut gallery has spoken. So negative nancy, do you earn your living kissing "Fallins butt"?

Like I said, his former occupation was likely an Oklahoma State Trooper...

That explains a lot.  ;)  He must taste what she eats before she does with as far as his heads buried.

On topic, it's a good idea for the pilot program. I'm just a little skeptical of the numbers on paper.  I think it's a good idea to try it on a limited scale to get a true feeling of the potential use. If it works, and an arrangement with BNSF to get to downtown Tulsa, and an arrangement tonlink to Amtrak it can be a very good thing.

Thanks for the info Rick!

I like what you're saying and hope it works out!  :)

It looks like BNSF has tracks to those places. All you need to do is convince them that passenger service to those place would make them money.

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/where-can-i-ship/

The reason that I ask some of the questions about this, is having seen the rehab that a 134 mile route being rehabbed between Eugene and Coquille Oregon that feed to Coos Bay for all types of lumber products. The twenty mile stretch between the port at Coos Bay and Coquille took about a year to align the tracks and they replaced ~ 90,000 railroad ties to complete the project. Prices for the rehab of the total line have come in north of $31 million dollars, and the line was shut down in 2007. It has changed the lumber industry here, the mill in Coquille now runs about twenty hours a day, I can hear them cutting wood until 3AM. The big benefit is the lowering of the number of logging trucks running some of the highways.

I realize that this doesn't directly relate to passenger service, here or between Tulsa and OKC, but it does relate into the costs of maintaining and rehabbing existing lines.

http://www.portofcoosbay.com/newsreleases2013/042913fullrailopen.pdf (http://www.portofcoosbay.com/newsreleases2013/042913fullrailopen.pdf)

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/coquille-re-linked-to-rails/article_ce495f54-b103-11e2-9bcb-0019bb2963f4.html (http://theworldlink.com/news/local/coquille-re-linked-to-rails/article_ce495f54-b103-11e2-9bcb-0019bb2963f4.html)

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/yards-terminals/port-of-coos-bay-completes-rail-line-restoration-moves-first-rail-shipment-in-five-years.html (http://www.rtands.com/index.php/freight/yards-terminals/port-of-coos-bay-completes-rail-line-restoration-moves-first-rail-shipment-in-five-years.html)

http://www.naylornetwork.com/aap-nwl/articles/index.asp?aid=217472&issueID=33235 (http://www.naylornetwork.com/aap-nwl/articles/index.asp?aid=217472&issueID=33235)

To RDW, I have to ask, if this is the line that runs from Sapulpa to MWC that parallels Route 66 going through Bristow, Stroud and Chandler, with stops in those towns, during this pilot program, how long are the stops in those towns going to be? To have a ~ 2 hour trip, and stop in those three towns, the train would have to average 70mph between stops to achieve the ~2 hour time between Sapulpa and MWC. I'm not an expert, but I don't think that the line can support those speeds, and unless you are looking at a less than 5 minutes per stop, you can't achieve that time frame. The reason I ask is, in the mid 90's when there was for a time no construction on the Turner, I could make a run to Edmond from Pine and Memorial in Tulsa in ~ two and a half hours with a Pike Pass.

With the curves and crossings along the route that is from Google Earth to go from Sapulpa to MWC, and stops in Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler, especially if you have people taking the trip with luggage for an extended stay, it won't work.

You know, prove me wrong, and I will admit it. I just think that this is over ambitious.

When you can take BART from Redwood Road and I-580 in Castro Valley to Donald D. Doyle Hwy and I-580 in 13 minutes, it's sad that you are driving at 70mph and you are being passed by BART train.

I think why we are all talking past each other is some of us are thinking of a rail line between Tulsa and OKC as a practical “commute” for business or whatever we regularly to to OKC for where we might need a car for multiple destinations.

If one is thinking of the rail line as an “excursion” train, as Red Arrow alluded to, that’s entirely a different subject.  If someone wanted the nostalgia or first experience of riding a passenger train to OKC then to spend a leisurely day in Bricktown and/or going to a Thunder game, that’s entirely a different purpose.

The main reasons MC or I would have to go to OKC would either involve work on our rent house in Midwest City or some sort of cycling event.  As far as doing work on the house there, we’d probably need a car to go back and forth to Lowe’s or HD.  However, it might be a novel thing for us to drive or even ride to Sapulpa, hop the train, assuming there is room for bikes, then cycle to our event and back in OKC.  Or even as a leisurely afternoon with the bikes down by the river or out at Heffner.  

That’s probably the competing mindsets, Aqua, “practical commute” vs. “excursion”.

I had no idea in Edge would get 25 on the highway. I’ve thought about getting one in the past. Is your’s a V6?

I hope this "proof of concept" is a raging success, and convinces the state that it would be incredibly stupid and short-sighted to sell the tracks we own.  I will definitely participate.

The idea, I assume, is to simply expose people to rail travel.  Even at the predicted speed of this train, it will be much more enjoyable than driving.  Trains are just better and more comfortable.  More space to move around; the ability to get up and go to a food/beverage car; the ability to read or work instead of driving.  Once people experience rail travel, they start to think differently about transit.  We have driven to St Lou just to take the train to Chicago.  It's about the same as driving time-wise, but you end up in the center of Chicago and don't have to pay $50 or more per day to park your car once your get there.

Now, imagine the benefits to Tulsa and OKC if the rails were improved and the train could travel at a faster speed, and provide a smoother ride with frequent service and affordable prices.  (Albuquerque to Santa Fe is $10 each way and runs 5 trains a day from 8am - 11:00 PM on weekends, and 12 trains a day from 4 am to about 9:00 pm on weekdays.) Technically, a high speed train could travel from OKC to Tulsa in 30-40 minutes.  Faster than driving to Owasso in rush hour traffic.  People in OKC would travel to Tulsa for dinner and a concert and vice-versa.  Also, I believe that more Tulsans would participate in state government if it weren't such an inconvenience to travel to OKC.  If you could hop on a fast train with wi-fi connectivity, it wouldn't mean losing an entire work day to participate as a citizen in our state government.  (It would definitely help Tulsa to be more connected to our state capital.)

Maybe true high speed trains are a pipe dream, but even slower trains should be able to match driving speeds, but with a lot of added convenience.  

Also, everyone who is calculating the "cost" to drive to OKC from Tulsa are not factoring in the cost of car ownership, insurance, wear and tear, maintenance, etc.  Remember there's a reason why for-profit corporations reimburse you 56 cents per mile to drive your personal car.  At that rate, it costs you about $60 each way to drive your car the 100+ miles to OKC.  Just sayin'.

Thanks to Rick Wescott for posting on this forum and providing more information about this concept.  Thanks also for your work as an advocate of rail in Tulsa!

Rick,

Could you find out if they will have space for people to bring bikes on the train if that is their choice for commuting once they are at their destination? I know my wife and I would definitely consider that for weekend excursions as well as many other cyclists I know.

Re-reading your post, having stops in Bristow, Stroud, and Chandler are all a bonus, especially with multiple runs per day, as there are plenty of things to see and do in the smaller towns along the way.

I love my Edge. I started out looking for the Lincoln version of it because it had a higher state of trim, but now glad I went with the cloth trim and no skylights. We just drove it up and back to Minnie. She got 25, grandpa got 28. Rides like a bigger car than it is, and quite quick, though I think the ergonomics aren't so good. Handled snow very well without awd though it has some kind of ride stabilization system.

You guys summarized what i was trying to communicate. The train is the trip, it doesn't compare to the practicality and flexibility of everyday personal vehicles.

Latest Info:

http://www.newson6.com/story/24324229/passenger-rail?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9679776

I rent often for business, and have made a point to rent the Edge.  Awesome vehicle, especially for long (13-16 hour) trips. Good amount of cargo space too, and exceptionally quiet. I usually cart around a couple of servers and a trade show booth. My in-laws have the Chevy equivalent (Equinox) and it is a steaming heap in comparison, very underpowered.  I have also rented Dodge's equivalent several times (whatever it is called), and it makes the Equinox look like a Bently.  The Dodge has so many rattles that I think it must be some kind of competition on the assembly line to see who can attach the most annoying piece of plastic!  Last time I was given a Dodge I returned it for a "downgrade" because it was such a POS.  I suppose Dodge fills the gap left by Pontiac though.

Sorry that I haven't responded sooner to some of your questions.  And, look, there are legitimate criticisms of passenger rail and not everyone may be in favor of it.  But, at least I can try to provide some info, so any discussion and opinions are based on facts.

There are a lot of things that I rely on the experts for.  Like, the run times.  The private companies who are interested have said that they can provide run times around 2:15 each way, with short stops in Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud and Chandler.  Those intermediate stops are short, just allowing people to get on and off.  But, the intermediate stops are one of the reasons that I favor this conventional route over high speed.  Conventional service allows those who live along the route to use the train and it provides economic benefit to those cities.  High speed will zip right past them and not serve them at all.

The private carriers tell us that they can provide that service on the existing line.  After all, passenger trains were running on this line, in excess of 60 mph, until it was discontinued in the late 1960's.

There is discussion of improving the line, elevating the outside of some of the curves, straightening some other curves, that would cost somewhere around $75 million.  But, it should be phased-in.

Unfortunately, these excursion trains will not have the ability to transport bikes.  Permanent train service would.

Both OKC and Tulsa would have to improve public transit, to get people from the train station to their destination.  My hope is, if there's a demand for it and a profit to be made, the private sector will provide transportation for the "last mile"  rather than the public sector, i.e., you and I.  We also have to shift our thinking and understand that it's ok to walk a few blocks.  

Real passenger rail, from downtown to downtown, will not fit everyone's need, will not fit everyone's schedule, for every trip.  Not even I would ride it every time I need to go to OKC.  But, it's a good, safe, reliable, alternative.  

And, if a private company is willing to provide the service, with NO operational subsidy from the taxpayers, if they're willing to take the financial risk, I say go for it.

That’s probably the best part of it all.

Thank you for answering so many questions.  Bummer about the bikes, but hey, it’s a pilot program.  Let them know there would be demand for people to be able to commute on two wheels at either end of the tracks if there is any way to accommodate it now or in the future.

Thank you Rick. The fact that you would jump onto our forum to explain this to us speaks volumes about your dedication.

Rick,

Thank you for the straight info.

RA

If you all have any flyers or have something on a website I could download I would be happy to post them in my shop downtown and perhaps suggest they be a Valentines day excursion/gift. 

Amen.

Artist,  sorry, but I don't have any flyers.  But, I bet if you go to easternflyer.com and use their "contact" link, they'd be happy to help you out.

I saw in the TW that about 700 have signed up so far for the excursions.  Wow!  And Congratulations.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/transportation/interest-in-tulsa-okc-passenger-rail-heightens-again/article_f393140d-fca5-5b37-8c35-1173f0175e9f.html

The latest unofficial figure I have is 870 of 900 tickets sold.  In one week, with no formal ad campaign.  Just some news items and social media.  Pretty impressive.

Very impressive.

Wow!
Impressive! Guess I was wrong on how this thing would go  ;D

Count me as surprised. Never expected that large of a response.

I'd ride it once as a curiosity with the kids, but I doubt it would become a routine mode of travel to OKC.  I'd view it more as an attraction than transportation. I hope they can sustain those numbers.

Sold Out

Shows what we know.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/transportation/eastern-flyer-train-from-sapulpa-to-oklahoma-city-sells-out/article_9948617a-794d-11e3-b906-001a4bcf6878.html

I had a good feeling about this from the beginning. It ain't for everybody, but it is great for others.

Thanks to rdw and the others.

Some new info. 

In 1998, BNSF owned the line from downtown Tulsa to OKC.  They sold Sapulpa -OKC to the state.  Since then, ODOT has been telling the public that, since BNSF retained ownership from Sapulpa - downtown Tulsa, we would have to negotiate with BNSF for access from Sapulpa - downtown and they could refuse access if they want.  According to ODOT, that was the hold up to passenger rail.

I recently read the 1998 purchase contract between BNSF and ODOT.  It specifically says that BNSF grants access for 99 years to ODOT or any of ODOT's licensees to run up to 4 round trips per day on its line from Sapulpa - downtown Tulsa, and sets out the pricing structure.

In other words ODOT has been misrepresenting the facts to the public for 15 years.  We could have service into downtown Tulsa today.

Wonder why ODOT would do that?

Maybe they don’t have a sharp attorney who knows how to read a contract.  ;)

Thank you for your research and hard work on this, Rick.

Boy thats interesting.

ODOT lied?

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/jaw_dropping_butch.jpg)

Gosh, what could their motivation possibly be?

As I have paid more attention to the subject of transit I have learned that there are quite a number of interests arrayed against transit and TOD.  Many Republicans, and far right religious people, especially ones in Oklahoma, are against it (the black helicopter crowd think its an evil plot to rob Americans of their freedom, aka the automobile, and trap us all in high-rise cities).  The oil, auto, gas station, asphalt, etc. industries are against it. Even some in the healthcare industry are against it (there is a lot of money to be made in an unhealthy populace, and after talking to some folks in Detroit they point out that believe it or not there is money to be made in a dying city by certain interests.).  And to be fair there are good people who have other concerns and simply believe there are higher priorities elsewhere.

I know you have to be asking that as a rhetorical question - you did not become Chairman by being naive.  I will answer it for you for, though - Because they are ODOT, as corrupt an organization as the county commissioners are statewide - as sadly, so many areas of state government are.  


Now, onto the fun stuff - Rick, I LOVE what you guys are doing there.  I have "known" for years that there is pent up demand for passenger rail from Tulsa to OKC area, but now you are showing it with hard numbers in the real world!!  Congratulations,  thanks, and please keep up the good work!!!  I am very excited and hope it becomes a regular service.

We have been traveling from OKC to Ft Worth fairly regularly for several years as recreational trip.  I have even managed to make 2 business trips to DFW area riding the train.  It is NOT the same as driving at all, so does require adaptation of one's travel expectations.  And when you approach it from a "blank slate" standpoint, it is extremely viable for business and pleasure.  Kind of like trying to plan a dog sled trip to Nome, AK....but easier.

We (SWMBO and I) are looking forward very excitedly to the time when this becomes a daily service.  For the ones who have limited vision of what this can be, the first, very simplistic trip we plan is to get on the train in Tulsa area - wherever that may end up - ride to OKC and spend the afternoon/evening doing stuff in the area.  There is a very large selection of world class museums in the area...just like here in T-town.  Spend the evening at the Courtyard by Marriott that is literally across the street from the train station for the Heartland Flyer.  Go to Ft Worth - on a train.  Rent a car.  Walk around the Stockyards area a while,then go to Cattleman's restaurant for an early dinner - should be around 3:00 pm by then.  Spend the night - gotta be a good hotel downtown - and the next day, go to the Christmas Store - Decorator's Warehouse - in Arlington - SWMBO will insist.  (There is an area in the back of the store for the guys to go sit and watch sports while the women spend all the money.)

Probably go over to Dallas just to eat at Papadeaux...and then do whatever else strikes our fancy...maybe football game, baseball game, or theater or ??  A good curling match would be nice, if we could find it!!  

From Ft Worth, one could get on an Amtrak if so inclined and go just about wherever.  We would most likely be limited to a 5 day weekend, so get back on the train to OKC.  Another night at Courtyard, then spend the next day in OKC again to catch whatever we missed the first day.  Back to T that afternoon/evening.  Good trip!!

Hope this works out.

WOW. Just wow. This, plus a comment on Blake Ewing's Facebook, offer a new perspective on this issue.

From Blake's Facebook. Bold emphasis mine:

Thank you, RDW, for your hard work.

Keep in mind everyone that ODOT and the OTA are separate entities, though it would not surprise me for ODOT to run interference for OTA on this issue.

So...now that we know that the train can come all of the way into Tulsa what would it take to alter the terminus from Sapulpa and where would you put it.

West Bank at 21st seems like a logical spot with lots of available parking.

We got that expensive new bridge there across the river cause we told the Feds that it was to be multimodal including rail for future transit.  Perhaps we should use it for that and begin preparing the Fin-Tube site for parking and TOD development like we planned in the new Comprehensive Plan?

I thought all that planning was just for fun.
A thought experiment.

It doesn't have any tracks on it yet...the trains are ready to start excursioning already.

Well the thought was fun while it lasted..


http://www.newson6.com/story/24449258/odot-plans-to-sell-railway-between-okc-tulsa

This seems an obvious time for them to take bids on the tracks. Once established that there is demand for passenger ridership they can expect higher bids. Those who want to run a passenger line are interested and those freight lines that would like the tracks for themselves now can bid against each other. Real short term thinking by ODOT. No big surprise there.

ODOT covering their tracks?   ::)

New station right in the middle of downtown.

The new bridge, I thought, was sold to the Feds as part of a future transit corridor.  We were even told that unless we got this bridge funded that there would be almost no chance we would be able to get rail transit from OKC to Tulsa because we and the state could not afford to do everything and this bridge would help make it possible. There was stiff bidding between states and cities for the rail transit money the president was hoping would help begin to build up our national transit infrastructure and also help the economy during the height of the recession. California got a big chunk but believe it or not this bridge was one of the more expensive projects. I wonder if the Feds should look into this as a "breach of contract" of sorts.  

You can't say "Hey we need this to help build the transit line from OKC to Tulsa", then before the project is even done sell another part of the line that would then make it practically impossible to do so.

Unless this is an attempt by ODOT to flesh out a buyer which would provide passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa.  Though, living in Oklahoma for five decades has taught me to cast a wary eye at the intentions of all state bureaucracies.

A similar thought occurred to me.  I am currious to know what representations the State/ODOT made to the federal DOT to get the money for our intermodel bridge.

The “T” in ODOT may stand for Transportation, but the bureaucrats in OKC think of transportation only in terms of roads and bridges.  It's what they do and it's what they know.  Whether it is through bureaucratic inertia or hostility to alternatives to roads, I suspect ODOT has no desire to run a railroad and doesn’t want any threat that any of its already limited resources gets diverted to a rail project.

To answer CarltonPlace's question about moving the terminus from Sapulpa to somewhere nearer downtown:

I can't speak for Iowa Pacific Holdings, but my thought is that the terminus for these three excursion trips has been locked in.  All the publicity has already gone out specifying where to board, etc.  It would probably just be logistically difficult to change at this date.

Over the last couple of weeks, it feels like we're making progress in gathering meaningful opposition to ODOT's sale of the line (the "Sooner Sub") from Sapulpa to OKC.  Of course, there's a long way to go and it could still be sold with the stroke of the Governor's pen.

Please, if you are so inclined, call the Governor's office and voice your opinion.

The OKC City Council and the Tulsa City Council are working on a Joint Resolution to the Governor.  I think that would go a long way toward showing what the citizens want, never mind what large freight carriers want.  I must say, I'm very disappointed that our Mayor has not stepped up and acted in the public's interests.

I attended a meeting in the Governor's office a couple of weeks ago, where people discussed the possible sale of the Sooner Sub.  For nearly an hour, they discussed whether ODOT had the authority to sell the line.  No one, and I mean no one, discussed what was in Tulsa's best interests, or what was in the best interests of the people who live along the route.  That bothers me a lot. 

I'm rambling a bit.

If our efforts are successful, we will have to address "the last mile."  We will have to have meaningful, dependable, public transportation in the metro area.  There will have to be inter-city bus service and inter-city commuter rail.  We have to get past our unstated policy of geographic isolationism and work together. 

I also think that, for commuter rail, there should be a public investment in the infrastructure, such as the rail lines (which already exist), and maybe the rolling stock (or maybe not), etc., just as we pay to build and maintain our highways and streets.  But, I also think that the actual service ought to be provided free of operational subsidy.  I don't think the taxpayers ought to pay to operate the trains.  Fares will not cover the operational expenses, but sponsorships, advertising, etc., can.

Looking to the future, we need to go beyond Tulsa to the rest of NE Oklahoma and on to St Louis and Kansas City, thereby accessing the rest of the country without going to OKC and then Fort Worth.

We should also look at service from Tulsa to Bartlesville and Muskogee.   There may be enough commuter traffic, people who live and work in either, to justify that service, as well.  Don't know, just thinking that should be evaluated.

And of course, there should be a stop at the Tulsa Int'l Airport.

You guys always post well-reasoned opinions and you may disagree with some or most of this.  I'm just tossing it out there.

Have a great day.

RDW...is there a meeting coming up this week at Tulsa City Hall to talk about trains?

Our Tulsa Rail Advisory Committee is meeting Thursday at 10, City Council Conference Room

Sort of un-related but it came to memory with Stroud being on the line between Tulsa and OKC.  There’s a sizable oil off-loading terminal at Stroud where they haul oil to the tank farm in Cushing by tank truck.  You’d think with Cushing being such a major oil crossroads, there would be a rail line in and out of Cushing.

Even if there was a Star Trek transporter in my living room that could take me to OKC in 1 second for free I still wouldn't want to go.  ;D

Not even for the experience of having your molecules scrambled?
 
 :D

There used to be.

http://www.davidrumsey.com/rumsey/Size4/D5005/0425099.jpg%3Fuserid%3D15%26username%3Dlunaadmin%26resolution%3D4%26servertype%3DJVA%26cid%3D8%26iid%3DRUMSEY%26vcid%3DNA%26usergroup%3DRumsey3x%26profileid%3D13

http://www.okgenweb.org/okprojects/xref/map/ok-west.jpg
http://www.okgenweb.org/okprojects/xref/map/ok-east.jpg


Edit:
You can follow the abandoned ROW from Cushing to Davenport.  Look for the parallel rows of trees with the gentle curve between the tanks near the bottom and Kendricke Rd. The follow them mostly south, past Avery, past Kendrick, under I-44 and to the west side of Davenport.

http://goo.gl/maps/ltCTK

That is such a huge oil depot, seems strange those lines were ever taken out or allowed to go dormant.

I would agree but the pipelines probably took away any profitability of rail transport.

Apparently they can't get enough of the oil grades they want at the volume they need through the pipes.  My understanding from one of the principals at the Stroud site is this is the same Canadian oil that would otherwise be carried by the proposed Keystone Pipeline.  The E/W line through Stroud intersected just south of Davenport at one point.

Curious how much a mile of rail costs to construct if the ROW is already owned.  Anyone know?  I can't imagine it's any more expensive than pipeline.  Might even be less, depends on the political agenda of people who write the permits for such things.

I've found it slightly more than fascinating that someone like Warren Buffet, whose investment firm makes millions upon millions transporting oil via BNSF, would also be opposed to the Keystone...as well as his political benefactors.  What, with more carbon emissions required for rail transit as well as many more potential spill hazards, rail really looks like an anachronism compared to the stated goals of the environmental types.

Just as an example, when they rehabbed the 134 mile rail line between Eugene and Coquille, the cost, not including the price of purchasing the existing line, was $31 million or ~$230,000.00 per mile. This was an existing line and the ROW was already in place.

http://www.portofcoosbay.com/newsreleases2013/042913fullrailopen.pdf (http://www.portofcoosbay.com/newsreleases2013/042913fullrailopen.pdf)

This also got me to thinking about the CSX commercial and the claim that they "Move 1 ton of freight 500 miles on a gallon of diesel."  Did some searching and the best I could find, is that this is mostly true.


http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/projects-and-partnerships/fuel-efficiency/ (http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/projects-and-partnerships/fuel-efficiency/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transportation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transportation)

Just a small thought here: I'd much rather have a train to KC than OKC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

If the ROW is abandoned, it might be difficult to get it back.  There are always some areas that have buildings or have reverted to other uses.

You got a cite for that? It seems possible, but I've seen the huge-donkey pump stations they have on some pipelines, and those clearly also use a significant amount of energy. My only problem with pipelines is that even well respected players in the industry manage to have their pipes rust through from time to time despite claiming to conduct regular inspections.

And occasionally a train will derail and 18 wheelers crash.

Indeed, but rarely do tanker cars have significant leaks ongoing for months at a time. And they're a lot easier to inspect, not being buried. ;)

Topical :
http://record.umich.edu/articles/planes-trains-and-automobiles-traveling-car-uses-most-energy

Key Quote:

so from most efficient to least

• Rail
• Motorcycle
• Plane
• Bus  (in Tulsa with 1 passenger / bus... doubtful)
• Fossil-fuel powered automobile

Unfortunately BK, they didn't compare emissions from a pipeline which is what I was referencing in a comparison to rail travel.  I have a feeling the electricity required to keep pumps running on a pipeline are less than that diesel train, but can't say for certain.

I say transport it by bicycle, mostly carbon neutral though I'm pretty sure I emit CO2 when I ride otherwise I'd be dead ;D

They lie.  It is getting better - too slowly - but the oil people have fought inspection tooth and nail.  The thought is a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of mind set - if they don't inspect, they can invoke "plausible deniability" when a leak occurs - "we didn't know...".  There are a couple of companies that are doing good work in that area.   I made a tool a long time ago that would do an amazing inspection on plastic pipe.  Fed DOT would not put regulations in that would make it mandatory - it's that old "unwarranted government intrusion" thing..... 

I gotta get a bus....

Has anyone else noticed that if you complete the public comments form supplied by ODOT related to the Sooner Sub line, that the "submit by email" button doesn't work at all? The "print" button also doesn't work. In addition, if you attempt to save the PDF form, you just get a copy of the blank form.  Also, you can't copy your comments to paste in an email, as an alternative.

The only way to save (or print) a copy that actually includes your comments is to right-click on the completed form and select the "print..." option.  Then click the Save button in the upper left corner of your screen (don't check the "save as PDF" box, as this also doesn't work).  Once you've saved a "real" copy, you can print it using standard Adobe reader functionality (the embedded buttons still won't work).  If you open the "real" copy in Adobe you can also copy your text to paste into other communications.  Like to the Guv-ner.

Here's the official form:
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/rail/sooner/dataroom/sooner_comment_form.pdf (http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/rail/sooner/dataroom/sooner_comment_form.pdf)

And here's where the Eastern Flyer supporters suggest you send your comments to:
rfprail@odot.org

The Tulsa City Council took a stand tonight and, by a 9-0 vote, approved a Resolution against the sale of the Sooner Sub rail line.  9-0, by the way, is veto proof, if our Mayor should choose to take that action.  The OKC city Council is due to consider similar or identical language at their next meeting on Tuesday.

Can they make that binding on ODOT, though?

No, there's no way to make it binding.  It's just an expression of the Tulsa City Council's opinion.  The Governor has the ultimate decision.  I'm hopeful that, if Tulsa and OKC, the two largest cities in the state and the two cities who would be most directly affected, express the same opinion, she will listen.

Let’s hope she’s a good listener.

You owe me a keyboard and a cup of coffee...

That was pretty cruel, I should have posted a warning.

How was the first trip?

We went on Sunday - it was really fun.  Bear in mind, that everyone was there to ride the train.  This is one case where it definitely was all about the journey. 

It was a pretty good mix of people on the train.  In our coach, we had a group of 20-somethings headed to the Thunder game, a bunch of Amish people, families with young kids, and just a nice mixture of people of all ages.

I love train travel b/c it's so comfortable.  You can get up and move around.  The scenery is better and more surprising (it's not the typical interstate corridor that we've all seen a million times).  The landscape is not defined by corporate America, it's just farms and houses, and small towns and all the stuff that you would never see from the interstate.  Much more intimate than the interstate--more like Route 66, which the tracks sort of parallel.  Oh and you can drink and not have to drive!  (Did I mention the excellent Bloody Marys that were served on board?)

We knew it was going to be a slow train, so we weren't in any hurry and didn't feel impatient.  I think our top speed was about 40-45 MPH.  If the state doesn't sell this line, a passenger rail company could make additional improvements to the tracks and crossings, or even invest in the type of rail cars that can take curves at higher speeds.  They said that if they get the chance to operate this rail line in the future, they would expect to go about 60-65 MPH.

Also, they said that in the future, they could actually go from Tulsa's Depot to the Santa Fe Depot in OKC (where the Amtrak station is, I think).  That would be ideal.  We had to do a short bus transfer from the train yard in OKC to get to Bricktown.  That's OK for these preliminary excursions, but it would be way better to go station to station.

We had a great day.  It was long, but fun.  Totally worth it!

I'm hoping the sell-out success of this pilot program will lead to more.  MC and I really want to take a day out and do this but just didn't plan for it this go-round.

I'm going to be the local "waaaah waaaaaaaah'er" and say:

Since it seemed to work out, someone in power will make a decision and ruin it...waaaaah waaaaaaaaaaah.

Well thank you Mr. Wet Blanky!

After losing bid, Iowa Pacific offers to start regional passenger rail by late May

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/transportation/after-losing-bid-iowa-pacific-offers-to-start-regional-passenger/article_41237f8d-9ae7-5f6d-81a1-a8c05d654b77.html

By CURTIS KILLMAN World Staff Writer

A losing bidder involved in the state's proposed sale of a rail line between Sapulpa and Midwest City has offered to begin regular passenger service along the route by Memorial Day weekend.

Iowa Pacific announced Wednesday that it has formally requested the state Department of Transportation, which owns the Sooner Sub rail line, to permit the Chicago-based company to begin regular passenger service this spring.

Iowa Pacific just wrapped up a sold-out inaugural run of three passenger train trips between Sapulpa and the Midwest City area. The route has been dubbed the Eastern Flyer.

"The people along the Sooner Sub corridor have been waiting patiently for rail passenger service," said Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific. "We are thrilled with the communities' response and would like to continue serving them with exceptional rail travel."

Iowa Pacific was one of four companies that had sought to purchase the rail line after ODOT requested bids earlier this year.

On Friday, a review committee composed of five members of Gov. Mary Fallin's cabinet trimmed the list of bidders to two, Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway Co. and Watco Cos. The state is now conducting one-on-one negotiations between them.

BNSF is owned by billionaire investor Warren Buffett's company, Berkshire Hathaway Inc. A subsidiary of the Omaha, Neb.-based company, BH Media, bought the Tulsa World last year.

Watco owns Stillwater Central Railroad Co., which has a lease with the state until Dec. 31, 2017, to manage and operate the 97.5-mile long Sooner Sub and another line between Stillwater and Pawnee.

Iowa Pacific operated the three 300-passenger excursion trips through an agreement with Stillwater Central.

Advocates of passenger rail service in the Tulsa area have urged the state not to sell the Sapulpa-Del City line.

Iowa Pacific said in a news release it was prepared to begin regular service by Memorial Day weekend, with phased improvements to come over the next two years. The company has asked that the contract development be independent of any potential sale of the line.

The state has included stipulations in the proposed sale that include requiring the buyer to honor the lease with Stillwater Central.

Additionally, the request for proposals state that the "purchaser should anticipate providing commercially reasonable procedures for allowing access to the line by competing railroads and other service providers including passenger rail operations if determined feasible."

Iowa Pacific, in its release, said it will offer transportation beyond the current endpoints of the rail line, including access to downtown Tulsa in about six months.

The Iowa Pacific proposal to ODOT includes dedicated shuttles to take guests to city centers, universities, airports and even Bartlesville.

Iowa Pacific will also develop shared shuttles and other methods of personalized transportation to allow the Eastern Flyer to serve as a common link for all residents and businesses, according to the release.

The release said access to downtown Oklahoma City would take longer to develop.

Ellis could not be reached for further comment.

A spokesman for ODOT did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Curtis Killman 918-581-8471

curtis.killman@tulsaworld.com

  What I wouldn't do for a rail line from Tulsa to Dallas.  With my new business I have to go to Dallas every couple months or so and could go more if there were decent rail transit and I didn't have to drive.  And it would be nice if my reps in the Dallas area could come to Tulsa via rail. 

I think a rail line direct from Tulsa to Dallas could be successful.  Just curious, what kind of ride time would you be willing to accept?

Door to door, you can pretty much drive as fast as fly there.

Gotta give the Whirled credit for putting their cards on the table.
Now if we could just give serous thought to a line North.

This part is exciting, but vague. Is the proposal for extending the rail aspect into Tulsa downtown or via a shuttle?

Iowa Pacific, in its release, said it will offer transportation beyond the current endpoints of the rail line, including access to downtown Tulsa in about six months.

The Iowa Pacific proposal to ODOT includes dedicated shuttles to take guests to city centers, universities, airports and even Bartlesville.

Iowa Pacific will also develop shared shuttles and other methods of personalized transportation to allow the Eastern Flyer to serve as a common link for all residents and businesses, according to the release.

The release said access to downtown Oklahoma City would take longer to develop

Sometimes it was quicker for me to drive from 101st & Yale to my company a mile beyond Texas Stadium than to fly from TUL to DFW, and commute on each end.

6-8 hours would work. Any shorter times would be fantastic of course.  Driving may be quicker, but in essence I am losing 4 ish hours of productive work time when I drive, so anything where I would lose less productivity or "relaxation" time would be preferable.  Would rather be working on my laptop or reading a book.  Rail is more comfortable and relaxing than flying, and you can look out on the scenery if you like.  Also I am hoping that in time a Tulsa to Dallas line would have more convenient/seamless connectivity to the places I would want to go. I like how when you step off a train in Europe your steps away from street life, which is not the case once you land at an Airport anywhere. 

   

I found my answer in PonderInc's post that I had not read. I think this is very exciting...getting to Downtown OKC does allow you to connect to FortWorth via the Heartland Flyer. From FTW, you can go to Dallas on the TRE or to almost anywhere really.

You know, that’s a good point I’ve never really considered in terms of relaxation or productivity time if you can get work done via computer.  With jet flights being about 45 minutes to Dallas there’s barely any time to get much accomplished on the computer between the time they allow you to get it out and when it has to be stowed away.  Air travel for that short of a distance is anything but relaxing.

Especially when you fly in, drive to Richardson and then fly out again on the same day...do that all of the time and it makes for a Smooty day.

Much less "work" to ride the train, especially after one has ridden it a time or two....


The problem with TUL to Ft Worth is that right now, one would have to travel to OKC one day.  Next day get one Heartland Flyer and go to Ft Worth.  Enjoy the stay of anything from an afternoon to days.  Get on train back to OKC.  Next day, return to Tulsa.  3 days minimum - and that if you only need a few hours in TX - an afternoon between OKC/Ft Worth rides.

If it was going to eat up a day getting to OKC to catch the flyer, just as well to ride my bicycle there.  Using Route 66, should be at the downtown OKC train station in 7 hours or so unless you stop for a nice lunch at The Rock in Stroud then all bets are off.

Where would the terminus be downtown?  Share Union Depot with the Okla. Jazz Hall of Fame?  Kick them out?  Or somewhere else ?  The biggest issue with Union Depot is not also having the bus depot there, or is that not a problem?

Look at the downtown master plan that the city paid for and the current administration is ignoring.

Where does the downtown master plan put it?  As much as I would want it at Union Depot because it's a cool building I wonder if downtown would be better off with a multi-modal transportation center that integrates the buses and future streetcars/commuter rail with rail to OKC.  Charlotte, NC has a great example of this in the middle of their downtown.  The surface lots between Detroit and Elgin along 1st could be a good location, especially if the old brick building there could be part of such a development. 

Long term, as acceptance and utilization grows it might be smart to put the terminal in a place that has space to grow and to park (like the TDA owned Evans Fintube site) and provide circulators to downtown, and other points of interest. There is no reason the Depot couldn't function as a downtown station with a park and ride further along.

I agree the Depot would make a great station but you have two problems: 1) the hub of the bus network is at 4th & Denver several blocks away and 2) the station has been converted into the Jazz HOF and before that offices.  Maybe those aren't huge deals but they are things to consider.  Probably the best scenario would be to repurpose the Depot back into an Art Deco train station and have the parking lot in front as a smaller bus turn-around.  You then have to move the Jazz HOF (maybe to Greenwood?) and the current bus station becomes obsolete and developable.  Once there is a streetcar it would likely run along Elgin in some capacity which is just a few blocks away .  You already have the Boston bridge to get people from the Depot over to Brady.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/mayor-vetoes-council-resolution-backing-passenger-rail/article_65dcd000-a3dc-11e3-857b-001a4bcf6878.html

Mayor vetoes council resolution backing passenger rail

By JARREL WADE World Staff Writer

The mayor on Monday vetoed a resolution passed by the City Council urging the state not to sell the state-owned rail line connecting the Tulsa area to Oklahoma City. In a memo to councilors, Mayor Dewey Bartlett explained his decision, saying the resolution reached too far in expressing an opinion for the whole city -- an opinion Bartlett said he does not share.

The resolution passed unanimously through council on Feb. 6 and was proposed by the council’s passenger rail task force.
The vetoed resolution urges Gov. Mary Fallin and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation to abandon any possible plans to sell the Sooner Subdivision Rail Line. “I do not agree that passenger trains will only become viable with continued ownership by ODOT,” Bartlett said in his memo to councilors. “In my opinion, only private ownership or holding a long-term lease will potentially provide the necessary capital and assumption of risk to accomplish any semblance of passenger rail service for Tulsa.”

Bartlett said he would approve of a resolution that expressed only the opinion of the council or one that “states that we encourage ODOT to use their best effort to encourage the development of passenger railway service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City during their negotiations.”
Former Councilor Rick Westcott, who heads the passenger rail task force, said the veto would have little effect on public opinion, which he said overwhelmingly supports keeping the rail line in the state’s hands.

“He’s putting himself out there on a limb all by himself,” Westcott said. “At last count, the city councils of Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Norman, Bristow and Sapulpa have all unanimously passed identical resolutions saying that as the elected representatives of their constituents that they advise this rail line not be sold.”

I somewhat agree with him. He's not anti-rail, he just wants it functioning in a private capacity.

Government owns roads for bus riders and truckers. Government owns airports for airplane travel. What is wrong with government owning rail lines?
 

There’s no need for a dedicated building, it’s not like there would be 8 or 10 departures a day (at least not in the foreseeable future) which would make more sense for it to be a full time terminal.  I think it would be a good split use and would give the Jazz HoF more visibility.

Amtrak.

The back would need to be reworked and canopies/platforms added but I like the idea of turning this back into a working train station. 
(http://ivorytower.emuviews.com/deco/images/union_depot_north.jpg)

It drives up cost.

Yeah, it's perfect.

Quite pleasant in the places where they don't have to rely on fickle funding sources that won't pay for enough frequency to establish decent ridership. AKA, the northeast corridor.

I think I read somewhere that when Joe Biden was as Senator he used to commute to DC from Delaware on Amtrak, just another average Joe.  No pun intended.

We took the Metroliner from DC to NYC and back about 35 years ago, I was quite impressed with the ridership. But there again, the NE is much more used to mass transit than those of us out in fly-over country.

It's all about population density and where the business core is in those areas in the NE.  When I made my trip to DC in '05, I hadn't been to the East Coast before, but I had been to SF and stayed with a friend of mine in the Mission District.  We took the BART everywhere we went.  DC/NoVA is a little different.  I still had to rent a car, but I would drive it between my hotel just east of Dulles to the farthest west Metro stop (Falls Church), park it there and take the Metro Blue Line in.  Much easier to use and saved the hassle of driving I-66 into the District.  I've heard that can take the soul right out of you.  I believe it, because the first day I was there (a Friday), after visiting a relative in the Triangle who works for the EPA, I took it back shortly before 3:30 and wound up getting into the outbound rush hour traffic on I-66 back towards Dulles and Manassas.  I used to think driving in Houston was bad.  NoVA is so much worse.  Their drivers rival Oklahoma drivers in sheer stupidity.

I've had the luxury of staying in DC, Seattle, Boston, Denver, and San Jose for about a week each in the last several years. Each time I was impressed at how much better public transport was to get around. In DC I would drive in from Dulles everyday with the family and park at the mall across the highway from the Pentagon and take the train for the day. Was glad my trips were not during any rush hour traffic. The T in Boston impressed me the most. I don't think I would even want to own a car if I lived there. Took the train out to Salem while there and enjoyed the trip, and would love to see something like that here, same with the BART when I ride into San Fransisco.
So far the bus terminals and the train terminals were no where near each other. I'm not seeing why there seems to be this concern that our terminal is for blocks away. If people are so afraid to walk here, it wouldn't be difficult to have a shuttle running between the two.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

Our Mayor will veto the council resolution to the state that asks that ODOT not sell the lines between Sapulpa and OKC. He cited ease of personal car travel and alluded that rail travel is a novelty.

I'm sending him a email...maybe he will veto that too since we should still be using the postal service because of its convenience.

http://kwgs.org/post/bartlett-vetoes-train-resolution (http://kwgs.org/post/bartlett-vetoes-train-resolution)

Mayor Bartlett is vetoing a Tulsa city council resolution calling for the state not to sell the Sooner Sub Rail Line between Tulsa and Oklahoma City.  The rail line is being considered for a passenger train link between the state's largest cities.
 
Bartlett feels that passenger rail should be all private sector and not a state partnership.
 

DEWEY BARTLETT: " Use of a commuter rail between Oklahoma City and Tulsa has to be something that works and is supported on an almost daily basis by a variety of people. Right now it is more of a tourist sort of adventure.                                            
 
In his veto letter to the council he said he tought the resolution was too board in expressing an opinion for the entire community

One of my cousins lived at Commonwealth and Berkeley in the late 70s - early 80s.  She used public transportation for most of her commuting but still owned a Honda Civic for trips where public transit didn't quite suffice.  Her roomie also owned a car.  Nice place to visit (I did several times) but not where I would want to live.
 
http://goo.gl/maps/5GyJh

Yeah, that 9-0 vote by people who got more votes than he did is obviously too narrow a focus.

Not to mention, what the ___ does he care? The council didn't say they were buying anything, it doesn't cost the city a dollar. This sounds like nothing other than Dewey trying to placate Fallin.

This is what he decides to pick up the veto pen for? Really? Wow.

This letter is too strongly worded.. LOL.. Dewey is the council Editor.

Huh, all this time I thought money was fungible. We could, for example, spend a relatively small amount of money each year for the next 5 years repairing the line. Or we could lease it to a freight operator in exchange for repair work instead of money. Or use the lease money to help fund upgrades. I wonder which crony of his has a bid in?

Tulsa Councilors Disappointed in Mayor's No Rail Sale Veto

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-councilors-disappointed-mayors-no-rail-sale-veto (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-councilors-disappointed-mayors-no-rail-sale-veto)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201403/Eastern_Flyer---_friends_of_eastern_flyerjpg.jpg)

How do you veto a non-binding resolution?

...and wouldn't ties to ODOT be a conflict of interest?

Dewey Bartlett used to sit on the board of the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority. Maybe he knows something we don't.

I suspect this much:  he knows how to make a phone spontaneously combust while in his pocket...

OTA is a different entity than ODOT.  Aside from that, I don’t think Dewey knows anything about anything.  Well other than there’s great stuff over there on the other side of the train tracks.

Sorry, I cannot look at Mayor Dooey and not think of this:

(http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/files/2011/08/droopy.jpg)

Back to our regularly scheduled topic.   ;D

Add bloodshot eyes and a couple of seed burns and it would be spot on.

You would think that a stint at OTA would at least have taught him that infrastructure is a core responsibility of Government.

Lemmegetthisstraight. The city governments in both OKC and Tulsa all agree that this train is a good thing. I'll go out on a limb and say that the city governments of the towns along the way are also giving a thumbs up. Each trip has been successful enough to show that it's feasable and we have a company that wants to provide the service.

But to our mayor its still a toss up and no one in Tulsa wants it.

I wonder if we would have an airport if he had been mayor when it was pitched.

Was Dewey on the city council when Great Plains was proposed and approved?

I don’t think so, he was on the council from ’90 to ’94.  That pre-dates Great Plains by six or seven years, I think.

GP started in 2001 I think and didn't take long to shudder after that debacle got off the ground (2004).

He is still one of the "enlightened", privileged few who gets the thrill of owning turnpike bonds.

http://www.newson6.com/story/24927838/state-lawmakers-fight-odot-on-sale-of-public-railroads (http://www.newson6.com/story/24927838/state-lawmakers-fight-odot-on-sale-of-public-railroads)

Use of Public Transit in U.S. Reaches Highest Level Since 1956, Advocates Report [New York Times]
By JON HURDLEMARCH 10, 2014

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/use-of-public-transit-in-us-reaches-highest-level-since-1956-advocates-report.html?_r=0

PHILADELPHIA — More Americans used buses, trains and subways in 2013 than in any year since 1956 as service improved, local economies grew and travelers increasingly sought alternatives to the automobile for trips within metropolitan areas, the American Public Transportation Association said in a report released on Monday.

The trade group said in its annual report that 10.65 billion passenger trips were taken on transit systems during the year, surpassing the post-1950s peak of 10.59 million in 2008, when gas prices rose to $4 to $5 a gallon.

The ridership in 2013, when gas prices were lower than in 2008, undermines the conventional wisdom that transit use rises when those prices exceed a certain threshold, and suggests that other forces are bolstering enthusiasm for public transportation, said Michael Melaniphy, the president of the association.

“Now gas is averaging well under $4 a gallon, the economy is coming back and people are riding transit in record numbers,” Mr. Melaniphy said in an interview. “We’re seeing a fundamental shift in how people are moving about their communities.”

From 1995 to 2013, transit ridership rose 37 percent, well ahead of a 20 percent growth in population and a 23 percent increase in vehicle miles traveled, according to the association’s data.

Stronger economic growth is playing an important role in the increased use of public transit, as more people are using the systems to get to an increasing number of jobs, the association reported, and transit agencies are nurturing growth by expanding their systems or improving services.

“We’re seeing that where cities have invested in transit, their unemployment rates have dropped, and employment is going up because people can get there,” Mr. Melaniphy said.

Overall public transit ridership increased by 1.1 percent from 2012, with the biggest gains in rail service and in bus service for smaller cities.

In New York, where use of all modes of transit in the Metropolitan Transportation Authority increased 3.6 percent last year, according to the data, ridership has been bolstered by falling unemployment and improved service, said Kevin Ortiz, a spokesman for the authority.

The system is also being increasingly used during off-peak times, especially by younger people, who are encouraged by promotions like free transfers between subways and buses and by a decline in crime in the city, Mr. Ortiz said.

In Denver, the Regional Transit District topped 101 million passenger trips last year, its most ever, helped by an improving economy and an increasing acceptance that public transit is an attractive alternative to the automobile, said Scott Reed, a spokesman for the district.

One of the challenges is simply getting people to try public transportation, Mr. Reed said, but when they do, “they find it is so much easier than they had feared.”

The 14-mile light-rail W Line connecting Denver, Lakewood and Golden, Colo., opened in April, and by the end of the year, it was carrying about 15,000 passengers a day, as planned. The line is part of a FasTracks expansion program, which will consist of 122 additional miles of light and commuter rail, 18 miles of a bus rapid transit system and a doubling of park-and-ride facilities, all scheduled for completion in 2016.

The estimated $7 billion cost is being paid for in part with a 0.4 percent sales tax, which voters approved in 2004. Nationally, taxpayers are increasingly willing to finance public transportation improvements, Mr. Melaniphy said.

In the last two years, more than 70 percent of transit tax initiatives have succeeded, he said.

Todd Litman, an analyst at the Victoria Transport Policy Institute in Victoria, British Columbia, said the new data were the latest indication of changing consumer preferences as a result of increasing urbanization, an aging population, and environmental and health concerns.

“A lot of people would prefer to drive less and rely more on walking, cycling and public transit, provided that those are high-quality options,” Mr. Litman said.

Opposition to Selling Rail Line Gains Momentum

http://kwgs.com/post/opposition-selling-rail-line-gains-momentum (http://kwgs.com/post/opposition-selling-rail-line-gains-momentum)

I saw this on reddit:  http://www.reddit.com/r/tulsa/comments/222t85/edm_scene_in_tulsa/cgjhpob

"Amtrak has plans to run high speed trains between Tulsa and Dallas starting in 2016 (Amtrak Texas Star, a three-way route with endpoints in Tulsa, OKC and Austin, meeting in Dallas), which means the Jazz Museum needs to find a new home."

I searched for "Amtrak Texas Star" on Google, and got nothing.  Has anyone else heard anything about this?  It's from Reddit.  So, I am taking it with a grain of salt.

What was the date of the post?  If April 1, you bought that hook/line/sinker.   ;)

That is what I thought at first, too.  It was posted yesterday.

State board votes to sell Sooner Sub rail line to existing lease holder
By CURTIS KILLMAN World Staff Writer

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/sapulpa/state-board-votes-to-sell-sooner-sub-rail-line-to/article_98c7869e-d47a-11e3-925b-0017a43b2370.html

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The state Transportation Board voted unanimously today to sell a railroad line between Sapulpa and an Oklahoma City suburb to the existing lease holder for $75 million.

The board voted 8-0 to sell the line to Watco Cos., which owns Stillwater Central Railroad Co. The company currently leases the rail line and has indicated it plans to work with another company to offer passenger service.

The board heard a recommendation from Gov. Mary Fallin’s cabinet secretaries to sell the line, known as the Sooner Sub.

The issue of the rail line's sale had sparked controversy, with proponents of passenger rail calling on the state not to sale the line. Tulsa Rail Advisory Committee Chairman Rick Westcott said in March that "ODOT needs to tell us and show us why it's in the public's interest to sell the line."

Westcott, a former Tulsa City Councilor, supports having a passenger rail line between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. Passenger rail proponents feared that if the state sold the line, a private company could operate it as a freight line.

However, Stillwater Central Railroad Co. has indicated it would work with losing bidder Iowa Pacific Holdings to operate a passenger line.

During today's Transportation Board meeting, the board heard a recommendation from several Fallin cabinet secretaries that the state sell the line to Watco.

Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway Co., also was bidding with Watco to purchase the line known formally known as the Sooner Subdivision. The line runs between Sapulpa and Midwest City.

The line has principally carried freight, but passenger trains from another railroad company, Iowa Pacific Holdings, ran on it in February to demonstrate the viability of such a service.

The Iowa Pacific and Stillwater Central railroads have an agreement that calls for Iowa Pacific to work toward establishing daily passenger service between Midwest City and Tulsa.

BNSF is owned by billionaire investor Warren Buffett's company, Omaha, Neb.-based Berkshire Hathaway Inc. A subsidiary, BH Media, bought the Tulsa World last year.

Fallin's got veto power.  I'm interested to see if someone gets in her pockets and she goes against her cabinet.

I believe this is one of the main problems that will need to be overcome. Right now it just takes too long by train to be meaningful to the business passenger. There are only so many people who will pony up the money for a novelty trip. After they have traveled once, who will be left to ride the thing?

Rail service from Tulsa will only work if places like Dallas or Kansas City are the destinations. OKC could be a stop on the way to Dallas, just like Joplin could be a stop on the way to Kansas City. However, either city on their own, will not generate enough local traffic.

The Jazz Museum wouldn't effect the train, unless the entry/exit is through the roof of the train.

Passenger Rail Update: ODOT Transfers Track to Private Firm

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/passenger-rail-update-odot-transfers-track-private-firm (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/passenger-rail-update-odot-transfers-track-private-firm)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/passenger-rail-not-coming-to-tulsa-as-soon-as-hoped/article_acf8b9f8-1724-5d3b-8f99-d438ad8fca74.html

Frustrating to hear that there's no new target date. That should always be a warning.  But probably good to hear they're trying to hold off until they can get downtown to downtown service.  I had visions of a Sapulpa to Midwest City line failing followed by people saying "See, passenger trains between Tulsa and OKC are nonviable."

People will still say that. In fact someone recently told me it would fail because of the 5 hour trip time. Don't know where he got that.

Note that OKC immediately made downtown OKC connections available. Tulsa has merely shown "support" for a downtown destination. Oh, well. That's at least better than no support.

I suggest letting your councilors know you want the city to get involved in making Union Depot the destination for trains to/from OKC.  The station and OK Jazz HOF can co-exist there.  The location, once thought to be a liability, is now pretty perfect for connections to CBD office towers, Brady across the bridge, down 1st to Blue Dome and a few blocks from the BOK/convention center.

If you haven't been to Denver's Union Station since they renovated and reopened it last year it is really fantastic.  It has several shops and restaurants, and a hotel.  And unlike KC or St Louis it's still a working train station and the hub for Amtrak and the light/commuter rail network, plus the main bus terminal underground.  It's really changed that whole area where it's located.

Denver also has zoning around its station to help make all that work.  The new comprehensive plan will prohibit that in downtown Tulsa. Which is why I am calling for people to please write in to strike the language not allowing overlays in downtown.  I really think we should have that tool available to us if we find that we may want it in the future.

"Section 20.010

20.010-A Purpose and Intent

As the name implies, overlay districts “over-lay” applicable base zoning district classifica- tions to alter some or all of the base zoning district regulations that apply to particular sites. Overlay zoning districts work to modify or supplement the regulations imposed by base zoning district when necessary to address special situations or accomplish specific city goals. Overlay zoning is intended to be used when the base zoning district applied to an area remains generally appropriate, but when an additional, modified or eliminated requirement could help implement the city’s planning goals or address an area-specific planning, design or land use regulation issue.
"Purpose and Intended Use

1. PB overlays are intended to allow for adjustments in an area’s underlying base zoning as a means of carrying out the policies of an adopted neighborhood or area plan. PB overlays may be used to relax or eliminate requirements that apply under base zon- ing or to impose requirements in addition to those of base zoning. PB overlays may be appropriate for one or more of the following purposes:
a. Protect unique development, building or land use patterns that are not adequately addressed by otherwise applicable zoning regulations; or
b. Promote reinvestment and redevelopment in areas where change is desirable and where existing zoning regulations hinder or fall short of achieving desired outcomes.
2. Without limiting the general purpose and intent of §20.040-B1, PB overlays may be used for the following express purposes:
a. Allow principal or accessory uses that are not allowed under base zoning; or
b. Establish reasonable, clear and objective site, building and design standards that
promote the general purpose established in §20.040-B1."

...Underlying Zoning
PB overlays may be approved in areas classified in any residential or nonresidential base zoning district, except the CB district. PB overlays may not be applied in combination with CB zoning.

Go here if you think we should be able to allow for "Overlays" in downtown in the future.   Really simple, just put in a couple sentences.  Please.

http://www.peakdemocracy.com/portals/121/Forum_355/Issue_2362  

Do we know with all the freight traffic on the lines running past the Union Depot that it is really an option?

I’m pretty quick to blame this administration for anything which resembles a lack of vision.  There might be some things which are pretty far out of their control with the railroad that it will take more time to look into.

1) The Union Depot is under lease to the Jazz Hall for 99 years. If the Jazz Hall wanted to lease a portion of it for use as a railroad station again, there would be a good bit of issues to resolve to get that done. But it would be hard to see how the government could force a lease holder to do anything.

2) The Jazz Hall is an artifact of WilTell/Williams faltering and Vision2025 purchasing the building (with a leaseback provision to for the ground floor). The building was then leased to the Jazz Hall for 99 years by the purchaser. As it was a V2025 project, the purchaser was TULSA COUNTY. So write to your City Councilors all you want, but hope they work with the County Commissioners to get the job done (technically the Tulsa County Industrial Authority). The Jazz Depot could request subleasing a portion of the building to be used as a railroad depot, but the TCIA would have to give approval.

3) Much of the infrastructure for the building to serve as a railroad depo is gone. The bridge to what was the center of the track line is long gone. Even the stairwells down to the south side lines is gone. There is a school on the ground floor (making it difficult to invite the public into the building). The spur rails that passenger trains would pull onto to load passengers and allow other trains to pass as need be are defunct (some rails are still there, but they are unused and I believe no longer join the main lines). Adding said infrastructure back in to a historic building could present problems, particularly when also attempting to comply with ADA requirements for travel accommodations.

4) The line rights coming into downtown Tulsa are held by another railroad (BNSF holds the rights to most of the lines through downtown Tulsa). They are obligated, under certain conditions, to share/sell right of way. But it isn't as simple as "we have a depot, come on down trains!" 


My guess is a platform style depot would work the best. I'm not for or against the Depot idea, I jsut see too many obstacles. A platform is affordable, classic, and easily placed in many areas. How much rail frontage is there through downtown Tulsa?  Lots. But adding a rail spur so a passenger train could sit for a period of time could be expensive. I'm no expert on all of that, but I know the lines through downtown are heavily utilized.

What is Oklahoma City's depot for the Eastern Flyer?

OKC is miles ahead of Tulsa in planning for mass transit, particularly rail. But a lot of that came with significant public money (including Federal $). If they are utilizing Amtrak infrastructure, they have a much easier time than we do.

If downtown Tulsa is not a possibility, there is a spot across from the newly re-habbed Crystal City shopping center which could possibly work.  There used to be a couple of garages or car lots adjacent to the tracks.  That might be enough space for a spur and boarding platform and people could park on the Crystal City property.

The only other issue I see is how do you move the engine from one end of the train from the other without a by-pass track or turntable?  I’m guessing you always have a primary engine pulling from the front instead of pushing from the rear for visibility and safety concerns.

Good question.  Looking at a map of the tracks in OKC it appears to be problematic to get a train from the Tulsa-bound tracks into Santa Fe Depot where Amtrak has a stop.  Union Station by I-40 looks to be a better location from that perspective but I don't know if the infrastructure is still in place there or not.  It may be a situation similar to Tulsa's Union Depot.

In light of the Jazz Hall of Fame’s perpetual financial crises and several near evictions, I suspect it would welcome the potential to sublet or be relieved of some of the space.  Similarly, I would think the county would be overjoyed at the possibility of a more stable tenant for a portion of the building.  Of course, it might be debatable whether a train station would be a more stable long-term tenant.

As for needed improvements/modifications, those are just the type of things that should be considered for inclusion in the next Vision package.

The New Mexico Rail Runner pulls in one direction and pushes in the other.

To me the highest/best use site for a train station downtown is the Storey Wrecker site, and a few surrounding properties. If a multi-modal complex was built here (I'm envisioning something like Denver's Union Station) that incorporates trains and buses it would help pull development further west from the Brady toward the BOK Center.

If you built something here you'd help drive up land values to the point that it would make sense for someone to acquire the prison and do some sort of PPP to rebuild the prison elsewhere in return for development rights to that land. Denver's Union Station was a huge PPP with Trammel Crow as the developer, and they've been slowly infilling all the adjacent land around that center. You could also sell the rights to redevelop the current bus terminal as well once the new multimodal center was complete.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/673/ojQLva.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/ipojQLvaj)


The prison occupies about $50 million in land value - let that sink in for a few minutes. The homeless shelter and Salvation Army properties land values are close to $10 million together. Now imagine this area developed like this....

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/909/pcETqO.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/p9pcETqOj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/673/RGgvdq.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/ipRGgvdqp)

If I had a wish for a major downtown investment in Vision2025 II it would this. Take the money passed for a new Juvenile Justice Center and acquire enough land to build both. I'm not sure what a new prison would cost to build (I'm guessing in the neighborhood of $100-150 million). You have a private partner that would help fund the construction of the new prison and would get the $50 million in land value. Put $50 million in Vision funds for the prison (would equal $100 million) Form a TIF/BID district that would capture ad valorem taxes and sales taxes from the new infill development to cover any extra cost.

Put $75 million into acquiring land for the multimodal center and building platforms, a parking garage, and a "depot building". Set a plan for expanding regional rail connections to Grand Lake, Little Rock, Dallas, KC, etc. Set a plan to build commuter rail to B-ville, Muskogee, Stillwater, etc. Finally, set a plan for light rail/rapid transit in the immediate metro. Build the first phase in a way that you can slowly add on to the facility as other types of transportation is constructed.

You'd instantly cause land values to skyrocket in the Brady west of Boston. You'd also make the land west of the BOK very valuable as well for redevelopment, and you'd increase the development potential west of US 75/Owen Park area.

Yes, I don't think there is any real discussion to using the Union Depot.  Personally I would not like to use it for it is now too disconnected from any decent urban fabric.  First impression of Tulsa leaving the depot would be a large parking garage and the back alley like area of a bunch of other buildings and parking garages.  Pedestrian connectivity to other parts of downtown is important.  But there is talk about doing a train station downtown. 

Nothing that has been in there since late 60's has been even close to as stable as when it was a train station the first time.  And even that was only about 35 years.  

Heartland Flyer has been going 16 years so far.  And it's on track owned by Warren Buffet.  Probably will continue for a while....

If there were decent facilities (parking for a car) or public transportation to get to the station, and a real connection to the Flyer, I would ride the thing at least a half dozen times a year just going to Ft Worth, and if they got the schedule right, would be on that sucker two or three times a week to OKC!! Nothing I would like better than to get on in downtown T, then get in a car at OKC station.  Perfection!!

Three hour trip T to OKC??  Great!!!  I could get tons of stuff done in that 'down time'.  Be almost like a real world oughta be....



Interesting how many people from Tulsa go down to OKC area a lot for work....Have known one in the past who commuted every day for about 6 years, up until about 18 months ago!  Yuck!  And found out after the May storm that there were at least two other Tulsan's living in one of my haunts that was destroyed - part and full time....go figure.  Says something about how OKC is encouraging technology more than T right now - at least for the last few years.  Where are all those engineering jobs again??

I agree the Williams/City Hall complex really isolates the old train depot.  However, I don’t think a proposal to spend a lot of money to build a brand new train station will go over very well when we have an underutilized building with “Depot” in its name sitting on the tracks that could be put back in service for a much smaller investment.  It also has ample parking right outside its front door.  Rail service between Tulsa and OKC may or may not work out long-term - keeping our investment on a building to a minimum would be a much easier sale to voters.

This would be good place for a shuttle stop like we have discussed in another thread... Downtown, Cherry Street, Union Station.

That is a frustrating prospect that if you propose a new station, the first likely reaction by most might be "Why spend money on a new one when the old one could do?"  And that right there would create a negative bias on any plan to fund a new station.  However if there were a longer range plan that showed a new station that was perhaps small, but had room to grow, that was also architecturally interesting, and part of a larger more connected plan showing a vision of what was around it, aka lots of pedestrian friendly stuff, well then I think it might have a chance.  Also if it was a "dual use" station, which is actually what is proposed.  In the proposal I saw it was called a Multi Modal station, that could be used by the new downtown circulator and then later possibly light rail.

How about a Multi Modal station for the new Downtown Circulator, set up so that it can also be used for light rail in the future, that is also a city welcoming/information center and throw in a Tulsa Art Deco Museum component to give people a little taste of our history while showcasing some incredible Art Deco art and artifacts? 

Union Depot is in a perfect location. From the building walking it's one block down the bridge to the Brady District or one block down Cincinnati to the CBD, two blocks down 1st to Blue Dome District or two blocks down the bridge to Guthrie Green. It's just four blocks from Oneok and The Brady Theater and only five blocks from The BOK Center and The Cain's. Where exactly downtown would be a better location?

If the circulator ran down Cincinnati/Detroit on a couplet as some have proposed it would be right next to Union Depot.  There could actually be some cool synergy between Union Depot and the OK Pop Museum directly across the tracks, hopefully that's part of the design as they move forward on the museum.  I agree 1st St right at Union Depot is pretty terrible for a pedestrian, at least the streetscape is pretty nice through parts of there.  It would be great to have the buses there as well, is there room?

Possibly where the tracks cross Detroit, or Elgin or Frankfort. Or perhaps better yet on Boulder so the BRT could connect there as well.

Just because something is walking distance, doesn't mean it's a good walk that people will want to make.  I would rather walk 2 blocks along a great, pedestrian lively street, versus 1 block past a blank wall or parking garage. Most of the stations I have been to in other cities immediately drop you off in a pedestrian friendly area. Also, I don't see that the old Union Depot can be Multi-Modal with the busses.

WATCO Companies L.L.C. of Pittsburg, Kansas, issued a Request for Proposal to begin the process of securing a private rail carrier to provide passenger service for an initial period of 10 years between downtown Tulsa and the newly reconfigured Santa Fe Hub in Oklahoma City.
http://www.normantranscript.com/news/passenger-rail-will-return-connecting-tulsa-to-okc/article_c99c53b2-763d-11e8-b116-ab1352191997.html

Here is a proposed site for a NEW TRAIN STATION downtown.

https://goo.gl/maps/4Djbf32KGt32

Funny that Google Street View drives on sidewalks now (and I thought I was the only one).

Sounds great, but I don't believe it will ever happen.

It’s up to GT Bynum and the city council to push for this service or it won’t happen.  And it needs to serve both downtowns to work.  And a renovated Union Depot absolutely should be Tulsa’s downtown station it would be an amazing attraction.

From the TW:

Agreed.  I would love for Union Depot station to be utilized.  

When this Tulsa to OKC train service discussion started, Uber was not quite (or at best was newly) a regular thing in OK.  Further, both cities have had significant redevelopment of their downtown areas.  Train service might work quite well now for certain business travelers.

On the way to Dallas this weekend I was just thinking how great it would be to be taking the train instead.  Even if it takes longer, I could have used the time to relax and do some work on my computer.  By the way, the more I go to Dallas the more I think its an awful city lol.  We always go to the "core" to buy at Market for the store and then in the area to eat out, stay for a few days, etc. but even in their core with all the density they have, you can't really walk from place to place in most areas and you never see anyone walking or biking except in just small parts of their Uptown.  It's hideous and I am so glad our city core is slowly bending the curve the other direction to where we can have more density but it feel more alive and yet at the same time feel more intimate, beautiful, and comfortable. 

As an eternal optimist for an alternative transit option between Tulsa and OKC, I don't see much hope in this new development. Nothing in the article discussed the track condition. Will the trains still be averaging around 40 mph? Will the trip still be almost 3 hours? Other than for novelty, how much regular ridership do they project with a trip that long? Will it still cost $50M to bring train speeds up to around 60 mph?

The same problems the delayed and then defeated the last effort have not been addressed. It is why I am more optimistic about luxury bus service because it doesn't need $50M in infrastructure improvement to offer comfy seats, wifi, electrical outlets, and downtown-to-downtown service.

But I hope I'm wrong this time and someone has found the magic pot of money to upgrade the track and make train service comparable to driving times. Without that, I cannot see passenger rail succeeding on a route people are used to driving both ways in the same day.

Go to OKC and hop the train...yeah, takes longer, but it is a great ride!   We have done that close to a dozen times and it never fails to be enjoyable.  Rent a car at Ft Worth or get on the local train loop if you are going to be just in downtown Dallas.  Further west out of Dallas, toward Ft Worth, the better it is...   Stockyards is kinda fun, and there is a huge Christmas shop there called Decorator's Warehouse.  It is a Christmas store in the same way Bass Pro Shops is a bait shop.  They have 17 ft tall Nutcrackers!  And all the sizes in between.


And yeah, Dallas kinda sucks - but they have a Pappadeaux there!  Couple of them...


Oh, and you can also drive by Gas Monkey shop, Misfit Garage, and Sue's place.  All within about a mile of each other.  Not real impressive buildings, but hey, they are celebrities!!

Probably won't happen.  Again.   As for $50 million, well the bus service will have to take the turnpike and they spend way more than that on repair, so it also has some issues.

Comfy seats -  the OKC to Ft Worth train has amazing seats!  Better than 1st class airplane!   And there is so much room between rows, my feet almost can't reach the footrest on the seat in front of me.

I was recently in Japan and they make our transportation infrastructure look like a third world country.  If you are into trains a trip between Osaka and Tokyo on the shinkansen is a must.  If we had a similar train the trip between downtown OKC and downtown Tulsa would be around 30 min.

I recently went from London to Paris via Eurostar. Soo much better than an airplane and such an easy experience. And in that instance it was probably quicker than trying to hop on a plane.

Size matters, especially when it comes to geography:

http://i.imgur.com/uuVan.png

Japan is also about the same population as the eastern seaboard

It's possible to get within ~4 blocks of the football stadium in Norman and Stillwater by train.  How many drunks would we keep off the roads on every game day?    /thread drift

https://ok.gov/odot/documents/Rail%20Map%202018-2020.pdf

As someone who lives within walking distance of downtown Sapulpa, I'm very intrigued by this. Taking the Uber from Del City to downtown OKC might be annoying, but worth it overall. DT OKC & Bricktown are already pretty cool, and there's a lot more stuff under construction over there.

Even going the other way (eventually) to downtown Tulsa would be a game changer for me. I typically try to avoid spending too much time there since I don't want to drink and drive, but with cheaper transportation I would be there every weekend.

I don't know how popular this will be, but for me personally it would be pretty awesome. Taking a bus just doesn't have the same allure.

Exactly, which is likely why the Eastern Seaboard is the one area of the US in which train travel is relatively successful (albeit, nowhere near as nice as Japan).  I wish train travel could be achieved between OKC and Tulsa, but sharing freight lines, the relative slow speed and high costs just don’t add up to a viable alternative to the turnpike.  Even if we had the political support to push it, is it realistic that we could plan, fund and build something like a OKC/Tulsa high speed rail line before self-driving cars become a reality?  I seriously doubt it.

That would be a great trip, too!

To paraphrase the scarecrow...   "If we only had a train..."!


Brain wouldn't hurt, either...

Already planned for metro OKC which would tie into the downtown train station where any train to/from Tulsa would terminate.

(http://www.acogblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/lpasystemmap.png?w=519)

Exercise in mental self amusement - won't happen in your or my lifetime!

People said the same thing about a downtown OKC streetcar (under construction) and Oklahoma legalizing MM (passed easily with 65% of the vote in the urban counties).  Connecting the #1, #3 and #6 largest cities in the state by a relatively short commuter rail line on existing ROW is not that big of a project.  We probably rebuilt the IDL for more $.

When Cornett becomes Governor of Oklahoma City, the entire ODOT budget may be dedicated to OKC and nearby areas.....

Then Tulsa can be spur on the OKC metro commuter rail system  ;)

That would be good.  Much of my traffic pattern these days would allow me to use that every day that I am in that area, which is many days....


Would be great to have something like that in Tulsa, too. 

At $100 million per mile, figure close to $1 billion dollars and about 8 years.

No, Tulsa would only get a promise to be a future connection.

We need to go ahead with the original plan and break northeast OK into another state.  Like CA is trying to do.

I think your price is a bit high for the OKC area. 
https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/oklahoma-city-streetcar-okc-street-car-oklahoma/

I was looking at urban/inter city/commuter light rail, based on a glance of that map, not the street car portion.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/ (https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/)

$100 Mil per mile?  Not questioning your sources or reasoning, but I'm in the wrong businesses apparently.

Phoenix AZ 20 Miles $1.4 billion

https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/default/files/uploads/event-resources/rail_cafr_12.18.12final1.pdf (https://www.valleymetro.org/sites/default/files/uploads/event-resources/rail_cafr_12.18.12final1.pdf)

DART in Dallas 20 years $5 billion

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dart-has-spent-5-billion-on-light-rail-is-it-worth-it-8380338 (http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dart-has-spent-5-billion-on-light-rail-is-it-worth-it-8380338)

Expansion in Portland Oregon for the Portland-Milwaukie Light Rail cost $1.5 billion for 7.3 miles, or $205 million per mile.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-21249-dr-know-light-rail-heavy-expenditures.html (http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-21249-dr-know-light-rail-heavy-expenditures.html)

Heck, it is $2,6000,000,000 per subway mile in NYC. In Europe (economically similar) the cost is $40 - 100mil a mile for light rail, and $200-400mil for a subway line in a mature city.

There is an entire cottage industry of studies trying to figure out why rail is so expensive in the US. Various reasons given, but they usually include:


Strong property rights in the US.
Poor mass transit (so if the rail doesn't go there, you might as well drive anyway).
The nature of the projects (new install, underground, do not disturb traffic, etc.).
Existing network built for freight.
Population density (drives up desirability, also drives up the cost if it wasn't put in place "back in the day").
Project management.
And for some locations - labor & regulation (from actual wages, to requiring a certain number of bodies).

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/11/why-doesnt-the-united-states-have-high-speed-bullet-trains-like-europe-and-asia/#7cf5f40c0804

When we had experts come to Tulsa about 10 years ago they said our city had the perfect conditions to begin working on rail.  They were like, "If I were to sit down and plot out where I wanted rail without knowing where your current rail lines were, turns out that I would place them right where they are!?" Downtown Tulsa to Downtown BA, to Jenks, etc.   They said now was the time to implement zoning to begin building transit friendly density and to buy up properties for Transit oriented development, rail stations, etc. for it was cheap to do so at this point.   And so on.  They were telling us that so many other cities had made this and that mistake and that we were in the incredibly enviable position to avoid those costly mistakes.

But of course, you know, we are not going to avoid them, we will run ourselves right smack dab into them and ask why.

We lost a lot of momentum during "the Dewey Years"

yes

You're right Tulsa is well-set up for a rail network to our commuter burbs with existing lines to BA, Jenks, Sand Springs and Owasso.  There is even an existing line to the airport which is usually a huge expense for cities.  The downtown-BA line not only connects two redeveloped urban centers of the 2nd and 4th largest cities in the state but also goes through midtown connecting Lortondale, Florence Park, Renaissance/11th St/TU and the Pearl.

Yes there are existing rail lines that you mention, but as discussed before they are designed as freight rail lines not passenger rail with sidings designed to shunt passenger service off the line to let freight pass and vice-versa. The line that runs through Dawson on the way out to the airport is used as an acceleration zone for outbound freight, and a deceleration for inbound. I used to live at Pine and Memorial and it got to the point I could tell if a train was inbound or outbound by the sound, and it is a heavily used line. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would bet the cost just to change the line from downtown to the airport would be beyond $500 million. And I wouldn't be surprised that that would be the same costs for the BA line and the Jenks line, let alone the Jenks line goes through one active refinery and an active power plant. I would think federal regulations prevent passenger traffic going through those areas.

I'm sure there are better examples, but this is one I am familiar with.

DART in Dallas I believe used an existing rail line. However I have noticed that the current routes always have a pair of tracks, inbound and outbound essentially. Most of the lines in the Tulsa area are a single line. Is this a problem when considering commuter rail? I only ask because a solid 3 miles of the line out to BA has little room to add another track, if any.

Second, unrelated question. From an economic development perspective, which is preferred, an inter-city rail line, similar to Dart and what is being discussed above, or an intra-city line, similar to the KC streetcar that only has about 2 miles or so of track? Which is a bigger addition. I would guess the cost of the former would be considerably higher as well. Just curious which we would rather have. In my estimation, local service seems to me to be what is needed first. Otherwise, why take passenger rail when you loose your transportation at the station?

Personally I would like to see a KC type of thing done here very soon. Free to the people. Connects a few main commercial areas. This seems like a winner here.

Most of the intercity systems, Phoenix/Dallas/SFO/Portland are dual rail setups, so that outbound trains can reach the end of the line unload and load and then leave the station and switch to the inbound line. More frequent station stops each direction because there is no stopping on a siding and waiting for another train to pass.

KC Streetcar appears to be a closed loop setup, one set of rails with the cars all going the same direction. The modern version of the street car in SFO uses a dual track setup and runs both ground and below ground level as a lot of the stops are in the same location as BART stations, so you can take BART into SFO and then transfer to Muni to get elswhere. Portland OR Streetcar is similar to SFO's Muni line in that it has two tracks running in a loop so you can catch a train going either direction.

Only in the River Market area is it one direction. It's basically a loop around City Market to head back south, instead of just switching tracks like the do at the southern terminus. Other than that area, it goes up and down Main street in both directions.

Ah, okay, I was just looking at the map and the info from their site. I guess my point is intercity and intracity lines are great ideas if they are planned out right, and while to me an intracity route can work well in downtown Tulsa, an intercity lightrail really needs the intra part to really work well from my personal experiences.

Just as an example, when I lived in SW Oregon, I would drive down to San Francisco to see the Diamondbacks play the Giants at AT&T Park. I would stay in Fremont or Union City near the BART line and take that to the Embarcadero station and then go up one flight of stairs to the Muni line to get to the ball park. They actually had a special price for people going to the game for the Muni line for $4.00 for a ticket to the ballpark and back, and the BART ticket was ~$16.00 round trip. So for ~$20.00 I could go to a game and back for the price of parking in SF.

In Phoenix, the Metro Light Rail has stops that are near major bus routes and when you get into downtown areas the stops are near bus routes or short distances to business and venues. It's not perfect but it does provide good service and the ridership numbers are good.

Way past due.   Finally someone is giving some serious thought to practical, affordable transport.

Republican buddies big oil and auto are really gonna hate this....

9 minutes - going up the country...

18:30 min - linear motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e19Z_i1bR0w

Philmont depends on the SW Chief which goes from Chicago to LA to get thousands of scouts and others to and from the ranch every year as well as other businesses around NE NM.  Looks like Amtrak is trying to shirk track maintenance costs and start running buses between Dodge City, Ks. and Albuquerque.  It's got our part of the state up in arms.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1193271/southwest-chief-rail-line-a-canary-in-the-coal-mine-ex-amtraks-decision-to-pull-back-from-agreement-to-back-northern-nm-service-may-signal-its-end.html

There are winners and losers in every funding event.   If they fix that, what goes lacking??   We know this goes lacking since they are putting money elsewhere.  Couple of direct cause/effect moments here - 1, Congress making them do something.  2, Congress not funding it.

But hey, at least the richest got yet another big tax cut - and that is the important thing, after all.!!

Hopes for passenger rail service linking Oklahoma City and Tulsa suffered a major setback Monday.

Stillwater Central Railroad failed to meet an Aug. 4 deadline for establishing a six-month pilot program to provide daily passenger rail service between Del City and Sapulpa, Tim Gatz, executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation announced Monday.

"The department is disappointed that the pilot program didn't launch, as it would have helped determine the long-term viability of passenger service on this line, but also understands the obstacles Stillwater Central is facing," the transportation department said in a news release. "ODOT will continue to be open to and explore other options from the private sector for a cost-effective solution for future passenger service."

Stillwater Central Railroad will be required to pay the state $2.8 million in liquidated damages, Gatz said, adding that discussions are currently in progress regarding how the payments will be made.

"They were unsuccessful in doing the pilot," Gatz said. "What the future holds — I wouldn't speculate on what the possibilities of something happening there in the future might be."

Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt called Monday's announcement "disappointing, but not necessarily a surprise."

"For those who were following the issue closely, I think we realized that the operator might ultimately decide that the penalty was easier to stomach than actual provision of service," he said.

Holt said he expects Tulsa and Oklahoma City leaders to continue to strive for connectivity, but believes state support will needed for that to actually occur.

"We hope the day arrives when that's a serious conversation we're having at the state level," he said, adding that he understood the state currently has other priorities.

"At least here in Oklahoma City, and in the metro, we're working together for the first time through a regional transit authority to contemplate commuter rail between our metro cities and that's a conversation that will ramp up in the years ahead," Holt said. "We're certainly looking at the rail issue from a regional standpoint, but that kind of distance between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is something the state will have to take the lead on."

Stillwater Central Railroad is part of the Watco Companies based in Pittsburg, Kan.

The railroad company had agreed to establish pilot passenger rail service as part of a $75 million agreement to purchase Sooner Sub rail assets from the state transportation department in 2014. The company has met all other provisions in the sales agreement, Gatz said. Those other requirements included upgrading the rail line, which continues to be used to transport freight.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s the Oklahoma Department of Transportation acquired about 900 miles of rail lines that were slated for abandonment to preserve those rail corridors for future operations, Gatz said. The department has since returned many of those lines to the private sector over the years, leaving it with about 160 miles of lines.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5637921/hopes-dashed-for-passenger-rail-service-linking-oklahoma-city-and-tulsa

It was always a scam. The state has never intended to expand rail service to Tulsa. Never.

I think it’s true that the promise made to the Tulsa legislatures to support OKC’s Amtrak subsidy and then Tulsa’s turn would be “next year” was a ruse.  This plan, however, was always a joke.  A private company will never finance even a somewhat sort of high speed rail line between OKC and Tulsa.  As California’s dying effort demonstrates, the enormous costs simply cannot be justified by the marginal benefits.  OKC/Oklahoma leaders simply have nothing to gain by connecting OKC to Tulsa by rail and will never spend the huge sums of money to do so.

Can we still be sad that there isn't even a normal speed train that goes from Downtown Tulsa to Downtown OKC? Just doing that at ~100mph would make me happy. It's not as weird as Vegas not having service, but we have to be one of the bigger cities that doesn't have train

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of support with Tulsa city leaders, including Mayor Bynum.  Rail between OKC and Tulsa needs a champion in a high elected office.

You can trace this back to Senator Nickles...from 1999 when the political climate was quite a bit different than it is now.  If this had been set up as originally intended we would likely have Amtrak service on the Heartland Flyer from Ft Worth to OKC continuing to Tulsa.  Possibly even further to either Kansas City or St Louis.


http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_1999/PR990524.html (http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_1999/PR990524.html)

I would settle for the sack lunch special...thrilled even!

Sure, but 100 mph would be considered very high speed rail by U.S. standards.  Even with upgrades, given the turns and crossings, passenger rail between Tulsa and OKC on existing track would be lucky to average 40/45 mph.

France has formally banned domestic flights on short routes that can be covered by train in less than two-and-a-half hours in a move aimed at reducing airline emissions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/24/france-bans-short-haul-flights-in-effort-to-fight-climate-change

It's been many years since there was air service between Tulsa and OKC. And those test rail runs between Sapulpa and OKC a few years ago took three hours and cost $64 a ticket.

To compare, with the new 80mph speed limit on the Turner, driving takes just an hour and half and costs maybe $17 in gas and tolls for up to 4 people.

Sometime in the late 70s, I was on a commercial flight that had a stop in OKC before a final destination of TUL.  I don't remember where the flight originated or whether I got on at OKC or was just there for the stop.  It was a jet though.  I kind of remember the Captain saying we would cruise at 15, 000 ft, maybe less but more than 10,000 ft, so they could go faster than 250 knots.

In the early 70s, I took a commercial turbo-prop puddle jumper flight from Memphis-Little Rock-Ft Smith-Muskogee-Tulsa.  The plane was almost empty.  I think it was a Convair 580 which was a turbo-prop conversion of a late 40s design twin piston engine airliner.  Probably either Frontier or Ozark Airlines.

I've been following the discussion about rail service between Tulsa and OKC for some time, and as cool as I think it would be it doesn't seem practical from several points. To get anything that comes close to high speed, let's say 100 MPH, there would have to be special built track to handle those kinds of speeds. It just requires too much straight line and gentle curves to accommodate that kind of speed.

The other issue is how many of the towns in between are going to want to have stations for people that want to go to say Stroud, Chandler, Bristow to visit family. Those towns don't want to be left out and will lobby for stops there which will add to the travel time.

While not trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I have been following the development and construction of California's "LA to SF Bullet Train" and have traveled a lot through the central valley where it is currently under construction that started in 2015 or 2016 and still have not laid a single piece of rail, and their hopes are to have the first segment of 171 miles, complete between Bakersfield and Merced, operational by 2030. That segment is already $10 billion over the initial budget of $25 billion. The original proposed budget for the entire system was proposed at $33 billion. The new budget is projected to be $128 billion.

https://calmatters.org/economy/2023/03/california-high-speed-rail/ (https://calmatters.org/economy/2023/03/california-high-speed-rail/)

The route through the central valley is flatter than a route from Tulsa to OKC. It's a lot like driving up I-35 from Guthrie to Wichita. The initial segment will basically parallel CA-99 between Bakersfield and Merced with stops along the way, and it also parallels an existing AMTRAK line.

They've built several, as they call them viaducts, in Fresno, but not much else.

https://goo.gl/maps/4zznm8jhtpZp5GGq5 (https://goo.gl/maps/4zznm8jhtpZp5GGq5)

https://goo.gl/maps/rFvYRV8TXe9UcxTi7 (https://goo.gl/maps/rFvYRV8TXe9UcxTi7)

https://goo.gl/maps/GKfsQ9gnqGRTLT3M6 (https://goo.gl/maps/GKfsQ9gnqGRTLT3M6)

Funny you mention this. The first time I flew by myself was in 1975, at age 12, between Tulsa and OKC on an AA 727 and the flight was about 30 minutes, and then again with ex #2 on a trip we won a trip to Las Vegas that was TUL/OKC/Las Vegas and a reverse for the return trip on a 737 was about 30 minutes between TUL and OKC. and both were climb out for 10 minute, level for about 10 minutes, and descent for 10 minutes.

I flew Delta from OKC to Tulsa and back a couple times in the early 90's.  Pretty convenient if you had a meeting in either city and didn't want to drive.  I know someone that flies a private jet occasionally between the cities and it's about 25 minutes from Jenks to Will Rogers. 

The last time there was air service between OKC and Tulsa was likely 2003 with Great Plains Airlines.  The flights were TUL-OKC-COS and TUL-OKC-ABQ, and you could get off in OKC if you weren't continuing on.  Miss those flights and wish we had those now.  I feel like there would be enough demand for daily flights on a 30 seat jet to regional cities like Colorado Springs, Albuquerque, Kansas City, San Antonio, Memphis, Nashville and New Orleans.

On short commercial flights, more time can be spent at the gate and taxiing than actual flying.  Then you also have to get to one airport and from the next.

Some of the Steam Locomotives pulling passengers could go fast. 

From a Tulsa World link that requires a subscription:
Once-sidetracked steam locomotive is taking its place in Tulsa's history
The Frisco 4500, said to once travel as fast as 100 mph, originally steamed through Tulsa pulling the "Meteor" passenger train between Oklahoma City and St. Louis, Yowell said. It was one of ...

The Northerns
The Northern class steam locomotives, with a wheel arrangement of 4-8-4, were used by most large U.S. railroads in dual passenger and freight service. Union Pacific operated 45 Northerns, built in three classes, which were delivered between 1937 and 1944. Initially the speedy locomotives, capable of exceeding 100 miles per hour, were assigned to passenger trains, including the famous Overland Limited, Portland Rose and Pacific Limited. In their later years, as diesels were assigned to the passenger trains, the Northerns were reassigned to freight service. They operated over most of UP's system.
https://www.up.com/heritage/steam/844/index.htm

I have flown over a good portion of the rail between Tulsa and OKC.  Looks a bit to curvy and through the middle of too many towns for true high speed trains. I think most of the curves would be OK at 80 mph but it might make passengers a bit uncomfortable.  It would be nice to see a timetable from when the SF Meteor 4500 was pulling passengers.

When I was a kid at age 4, I have some memories of taking the train from Tulsa to Kansas City with mom and dad and one of my brothers to see family that lived in KC. I know we left from the station when it was where Santa Fe Square is now. I wish I could find photos from that trip but I haven't found any.

The interesting things about that trip that I found out when I was older, was that my oldest brother had to have his appendix out and it was our next door neighbors that were keeping an eye on him and my other brother, and it was also that while we were gone on that trip that kids that lived across the street from us had set a fire in the MA-HU field that burned down the barn that was in the NW corner of the estate.

Speaking of rail travel, I looked at AMTRAK from Phoenix to LA and Phoenix to Dallas out of curiosity since they have restarted service here, and the first issue is that the station for Phoenix isn't even in Phoenix, it's in Maricopa AZ which from where I live in west Phoenix (Peoria) is about 50 miles.

The travel time from Phoenix to LA is 9 hours, and the departure time is 9:00 PM local and an arrival time of 5:30 AM. The return trip starts at 10:00 PM and arrives in Maricopa at 5:30 AM. Those are the only times. Dallas is a 32 hour trip, and has a departure from Maricopa at 5:40 AM and arrives in Dallas 32 hours later. The return trip is at 11:50 AM and arrives in Maricopa 35 hours later at 8:50 AM. Similarly those are the only times available.

If I wanted to take AMTRAK to San Diego it would be an hour drive to get to the station, then 9 hours to LA, change trains and then 3 hours to San Diego for a total of 13 hours give or take so a round trip would be about 24 hours. Not including hotel, I can drive from my house to a hotel I recently stayed at in just over 5 hours and spend about what rail would cost just in fuel driving over and back. Even booking in advance, flying is more expensive than the gas to drive over and back.

Those cretins!   That was the best barn in the county!   Came down to watch the burn that day!   Was windy and the flames were reaching from that barn literally all the way to a couple of the roofs on those houses in Johanson Acres, but 30 ft above.  Was still hot enough at roof level that the homeowners and the fire department were all throwing water at those roofs as fast as they could!  There was some scorching and a couple new roofs, but the houses did not burn down!   77th E Ave was blocked even with the barn, but even from couple hundred feet north of that point, could REALLY feel the heat!

Before that when there were still longhorns on the property, there was a small stone building on the SW corner near the pond.   If you got too far into the pasture, going to the pond, so that the cattle got too close before you could reach the fence, you could always run to that building and climb on the roof and wait for them to wander off.   I don't think they were really aggressive - just curious and coming to see if you have any food for them.  City boys don't really understand all that though.

It has been more than 50 years since there were passenger trains between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

Now, the Federal Railroad Administration plans to expand its Amtrak railroad system, potentially bringing back that connection between Oklahoma's two largest metros.

Plans within Amtrak's long-distance survey study show three rail lines for Amtrak could potentially go through Oklahoma. The FRA released maps as part of phase three of the four phases to get railroad connections through more cities – even in rural areas.

First, a line from Dallas to New York City would go on the Heartland Flyer's tracks from Texas to Oklahoma City. Then the line would continue near Interstate 44 up to Tulsa.

The eastern part of Oklahoma would be connected through a line from Minneapolis to San Antonio. Stair said the tribal connections sold the FRA on routes through eastern Oklahoma.

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-city-tulsa-connection-passenger-rail-train-fra-plans-amtrak/46841951

https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/FRA_LDSS_Presentation_for_Web_Meeting3_Optimized.pdf