The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

More jobs coming to the Cherokee Industrial Park.  It's not a corporate relocation but new industrial/warehousing jobs are still good for the economy.   

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/macy-s-to-open-facility-in-tulsa-area/article_133c9eb4-674d-11e3-ad08-0019bb30f31a.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/macy-s-to-open-facility-in-tulsa-area/article_133c9eb4-674d-11e3-ad08-0019bb30f31a.html)

Their first act is to screw over their future neighbors.
That's not a good sign.

How may jobs you creating this year?

What are they doing wrong? bad lighting?

They aren't supporting light rail or bicycle lanes.

Residents near there are complaining they weren’t told about it first.

Seriously? NIMBY stuff?

What's NIMBY about it?
pollution (light, noise, air)?
traffic?
unsightly?

Come down to 101st - 121st & Memorial and tell me about NIMBY. It's called growth and development.

I thought the southies love that stuff (IMBY please).  and are fighting for more big-boxes and strip malls.

You should probably include 91st to 101st too.

Not me. How about you Red? And where is inteller? In any case, 1500 jobs coming to the Tulsa area, but there has to be someone to throw water on it.

Yep. And I'll throw in 91st & Yale for good measure.

Not me.  I was happy with driving a few miles to get stuff.  My choice for any development would have been more big lot size (1 acre or more per house) single family dwelling development.  Keep the 5 or more houses per acre in mid-town.  Artist rightly complains about not having zoning for his chosen (wished for) life style.  My chosen life style has been similarly encroached upon by greedy tax suckers and cracker box builders.
 
 >:(

See my response of a few minutes ago.  

Sorry, but I don't even like the development you are in.  It's too crowded.  If this area had stayed at 1 house per acre and no big box stores, traffic would easily be only about 1/4 of its present volume.

I don't know who could be upset about the location. The area is already an industrial park, and it's right next to 75.  It will add some congestion to the 76th street N and HWY 75 intersection, but overall it's a great place to put a DC.

I'm guessing this going in across the street (north side of 76th) of Whirlpool?

There are some newer homes on the NW side of that parcel of land and I can understand those homeowners being upset they weren't informed of this but at the same time that areas is industrial and marked build to suite IIRC so...

Is it not the realtors responsibility to inform potential buyers of things like this?

76th street will have to be redone. At minimum the outside lanes in both directions. They are literally sinking and disintegrating and patching can't keep up.
The drainage pipes under the road in some spots appear to have caved in as well.

I don't know who the contractor on that 4 lane project was but they managed to do a worse job than whoever did the Creek Turnpike bridge over the SE wetlands.

Probably no more than a realtor's responsibility to inform a home buyer of an existing nearby airport and the noise it may generate.  Similar situation to the dirt track car racing at the fairgrounds in the 70s.

You have something against roller coasters?
 ;D

Actually, that road surface is in lieu of speed limit enforcement expenses.

Yep.  That area near the industrial park has not stood up to traffic at all.  And there are spots all the way into Owasso that need repair.  

This is great, this is fantastic- Thank you Mary Fallin! Yep Mary Fallin beat out the other states and brought Macys to Oklahoma. I don't think Macys would come to Oklahoma if we had a Democrat gov who who tax them and regulate them to death. Last year Mary Fallin brought 500 jobs to Tulsa. This news is outstanding we are talking about 1,000 good paying $15.00 an hour jobs at a huge distribution center. Good Job Governor! :)

They may have to widen the road as they build the new distribution center and WoW that new building will be huge and  state of the art. I worked at the Big Lots distribution center in Columbus, Ohio back in 1992 and I thought that place was huge but we only had 400 employees and it was not not large as this Macys center will be. What a boom for Tulsa and Oklahoma!

Just saw the article in the paper, and by the picture it looks like it is going in East of Whirlpool, South of 76Th st.  There are a few houses that front 76th on the North side opposite the site, but given that there is already industry in the area I can't see how this would be a big surprise.

That's probably closer to it.  The developer apparently treated neighbors like they weren't even there, which they see as a warning flag.



If the airport or racing track havent been built yet, or even rumored, that would be a better analogy.

Better analogy:  The runways were there, but the terminal hadn't been built yet.    Racetrack was there, but the grandstands hadn't been built yet.

the industrial park has been there with industry pending.

Probably but see BKDotCom's even better analogy.
My point was that realtors don't seem to be obligated to tell prospective buyers of even existing situations much less ones that are zoned but just not developed yet.

What an idiotic post. Zarrow's son had a lot more to do with it than Failin' did (read the morning newspaper...free at the librarium). Since he passed away, she hustled over to get the photo ops in an election year.  Making potential users aware of land opportunities others put together is not genious work. Democrats do it. Republicans do it. Commercial real estate people do it. Libertarians talk about doing it.

They did have that obligation when I sold real estate for a Realtor broker. I couldn't say for commercial real estate people but if you had the information or were privy to it before the public, you could be held liable for not sharing that with a buyer or seller. For instance if the land nearby had recently been zoned for coal mining but the signs were not obvious, yes, you better inform them even if it had been in the newspaper. Prospective buyers (not offering a contract) I don't know. As a professional there was a reasonable expectation that we would not mislead, withhold or deceive buyers and sellers. Otherwise there is no real reason for the Real Estate licensing.

Well, it's a lot better than minimum wage.

Thank you for the clarification.

Sauer, could you comment on how strange it is that Macy's decided to come here in spite of the fact that Failin's tax cuts were found unconstitutional because of log rolling, so that the top 5% will not get their tax break? And how truly weird it is that after nearly 4 years removed from a national recession and unemployment at 7%, its lowest since 2008, ALL DURING THE LEADERSHIP OF A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT WHO YOU THINK IS USELESS? Weird. Wow, soon we'll all be eating horsemeat or something.....

Nonetheless and regardless of who is responsible, I am excited as hell for Tulsa to get this chunk of jobs and business. I wish I owned rental property nearby.

Is Krazy Kathy taking credit for this..... ??? ??? ???

Which brings us to the obvious question, who does own the lucky property?

Duh.

No one bothered telling me that Lifetime Fitness, the Spirit Bank Arena, and the whole mess of business down by me was coming seven years ago when I relocated..

$15.00 is minimum wage if you are wishful democrat.

I could support a $15.00/hr minimum wage if, and only if, the rest of you guys didn't get raises (to keep prices from rising too much) and if and only if my salary more than doubled (need to make up for income tax bracket creep).
 
 ;D

Or someone deciding on heat or food for the kid

Not sure how the neighbors can complain since they did build their house in proximity to the "Cherokee Industrial Park".

They don't have a problem with all of the gun fire, but a distribution center is just too much. 

(http://i.imgflip.com/5l44i.jpg) (http://imgflip.com/i/5l44i)

Do you really think if we had a democrat as a governor we would of got Macys distribution center in Oklahoma? Democrats hate business they want to tax them and regulate them out of business. When Brad Henry was governor we had 7% unemployment, Henry didn't do diddly for Oklahoma jobs fled Oklahoma for Texas a more business-friendly state. Mary Fallin changed all that and she's bringing in and attracting companies to Oklahoma, last year she brought 500 jobs to Tulsa. The $15.00 an hour  wage I mentioned was for the distribution center workers not as a mim. wage.

Lived down the street when they were building whirlpool back in the day and if I remember correctly, there aren't many "neighbors" in that area.  If it is in the CIP than I don't think it would be on the north side of 76th Street, unless they rezoned the area.  So many some of the businesses are a little pissy about it?

Like it or not, Mary Fallin gets all the credit here as I see it. It's her administration and her policy's that attracted Macys  to Oklahoma and beat out the other states fighting to get Macys. Great job governor! We need Mary Fallin to get another term as governor.

(http://972mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/181148-triple_facepalm_super.jpg)

The other near-by companies may loose workers to Macys and I guess they don't like that, they will have raise their wages to be competive with Macys and to keep and attract workers to their own company. This is a good example of the  free market in action raising wages. Whirlpool may also have hike their wages and improve their bennies in order not to loose workers to Macys, from all the ads I see in the Sunday Newspaper Whirlpool has a hard time getting workers as it is at $11.00 an hour (or what ever it is they pay). None the less this competive fight will make jobs and companies will grab at people applying for employment at their business. Since Mary Fallin became the governor our employment rate has dropped like a rock from the days of Brad Henry.

Yep 1000 new jobs for Tulsa and that's your reaction. It does not surprise me.

Well, if they lose their loose workers, that might not be all bad, at least they can keep the tight ones...    :)

But seriously, I confess I don't keep up with OK employment rates.  Are you saying that employment rate is up or down?

Let me preface by saying I can't think of an area that couldn't use 500 more jobs as you say the governor brought to Tulsa.  However, whether a governor is Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Socialist, Coffee, Tea, or Me Party, they simply must be able to assist in landing more than the equivalent of a Call Center's worth of jobs (at Call Center Pay) to a metro area of 1 million.

If anyone wants to credit the governor for creating 1500 good fulfillment center jobs, then also let her know that more well paying research and technology jobs (are needed and) must also be brought to Tulsa, and not just to OKC.
  

Hopefully the "job getting" trend picks up momentum.  If you just see the gains and are ignoring the losses you will not see the whole picture. Over the last 5 years Tulsa has lost jobs "lost more than we have gained", while our competitor cities have gained. I gather that our unemployment rate is still low, which may sound good at first glance, but it may be that we are simply losing population as fast or faster than we are losing jobs.   

Oh, yeah i forgot all that. You should probably move to Texas. Help both states out.

Of course you give all the credit to Mary Fallin. You must think that she personally gave the CEO a handjob.

Unfortunately for your point of view, many other people were critical to making this happen.  According to the Tulsa World and Macy's officials...

In August, Tulsa Regional Chamber officials contacted the city of Owasso about a company wishing to move to the area. Since then, Owasso representatives have met several times with the prospect, which made its decision from a nationwide prospect list of 10. In November, the Owasso City Council approved the extension of a $500,000 incentive to an undisclosed company that reportedly was considering bringing 1,000 new jobs to the community.

The panel voted unanimously to transfer money from the hotel tax fund to the Owasso Economic Development Authority, which would provide the bonus only if the OEDA landed a contract with the company.

Chelsea Levo, economic development director for Owasso, said then that Owasso was among two finalists for a "worldwide" company that was prepared to construct a more than 1 million-square-foot building and make at least a $90 million investment.
The Oklahoma Department of Commerce dubbed the endeavor "Project Socrates."

Bonuses to the company also have been discussed by the state of Oklahoma, Oklahoma Career Tech, the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission, Tulsa County, the Cherokee Nation, the Tulsa Regional Chamber and Tulsa Tech, Levo said previously.

But hey, go ahead and give Mary Fallin all the credit. We expect nothing else from you.

Your no fun.

(I am going to try to fit in by using the same terrible grammar as many others around here.   ;D)

Mary Failin' came in for a photo op only.  As she always does.

Worst.Governor.Ever.

Nonsense -what did she do wrong to make her administration seem bad to you, what would a democrate have done better? raise taxes on everyone to make jobs?  Mary Fallin  knows how the economy works and if your pro-business like Mary Fallin is  you attract companies and business to your state, if you tax a business or punish them with crippling regulations like what democrats do you lose business and jobs flee to other more friendly states like Texas. Look at the job loss from Michigan a democrat strong hold state bleeding away jobs and has sky high taxes and regulations. These new Macy jobs are not the only  jobs the Fallin Administration brought to Oklahoma, her pro-business atitude brought in many smaller number of jobs for Oklahoma that don't make headlines- Oklahoma's unemployment rate is around 4% one the lowest rates in the nation. Last year Tulsa got 500 new  jobs, good high paying jobs- from Mary Fallin when some major company moved to Tulsa.

I understand there are indeed other people in the job game, but let's look at the big picture and all the good things Mary Fallin and her administration has done to attract jobs and keep jobs in Oklahoma -Mary Fallin  has a strong pro-bussinss atitude, she was able to get land the Macys distribution  center and beat out the other locations- The ripple effects of Macys will be more other jobs and higher pay rates.. The many new jobs we gained under the Fallin Administration  are all good solid  jobs not Burger King or McDonalds fast food jobs. When she took office Oklahoma's economy was in the tank, since then she lowered the state unemployment rate to 4% which is just about full employment, Fallin grew our economy big time. Look at the mess Obama is doing at the national level, talk about job killing and American jobs fleeing overseas- every policy Obama makes kills jobs. The Fallin Administration should get the  credit for Macys no question about it, I doubt we would of secured this deal without her. Does anyone really think if Brad Henry was the governor we still would of got the Macys distribution center? I really doubt it, Macys would of gone elsewhere- that's all I'm saying.

How was SHE able to land it.  Sounds more like Owasso and Tulsa did this.

You aren't by chance a former OHP trooper are you?

 ::)

If want to give Mary Fallin credit because of "the big picture", then you have to be willing to give Obama credit for the same reason.

Why am I even trying to talk reason to sauerkraut?

Never mind.

I give Obama credit for what he has done  destroy the national economy  and kill jobs. Obama has everything in  shambles and it's not George Bush's fault anymore. Oklahoma's economy would be even better than it is today if Obama was not in the white house choking national economic growth, (If Obama would allow the Keystone pipeline it would help the economy big time)  A single state like Oklahoma can only do so much when the national economy is so grim. I do believe that with Macys here many other companies like Whirlpool will have to raise wages to keep their workers. The ripple effect of Macys will be felt all around the area.

So says the economic doctorate.   ::)

It's Gaspar economics on a starvation budget.

Everybody give up on this thread.

Sauerkraut is just too smart for us.

As your local deity-in-waiting, I declare this thread ended. Some of yunz need a stiff dose of reality, and believe me when a deity says you're in dire need of that, you'd better listen. Otherwise, it's fire and brimstone time.

All hail Ed.

I just caught up on this thread.  This is a train wreck.  A Sapulpa to Midwest city kind of train wreck.

Sauer...it's "should have" et al, not "should of".  If you're going to talk stupid at least talk stupid correctly.

For the love of most working deities, use spell check.  When you stop in order to spit on the library floor, hit spell check.

You embarrass Oklahoma's educational system and you didn't even use it.

Merry Holidays and happy January 4th.

According to the Sunday Tulsa World, the deal was hammered out fast in only 8 months  and on the afternoon of  December 09th Mary Fallin and top Macys executives met at the Governor's Mansion to seal the deal with a $1.5 Million Dollar  package. Governor Mary Fallin has a "Quick Action Closing Fund" that she created in 2011 to lure businesses to Oklahoma and that fund contributed $1.5 Million dollars to the Macys recruitment effort. Fallin gave a talk to the Regional Chamber in mid-December about the deal. If we had Governor Brad Henry in office Oklahoma Never would of got the Macys deal, that's  all I'm sayin'. :)

In the Tulsa area alone during 2013  we  landed many other new and expanded industries such as Verizion, Taylor Forge, Midstates Petroleum, SWEP, and Mid-Con Energy to name a few, this does not count all the smaller jobs and spin off jobs that were made as a result. Tulsa did pretty darn good in 2013! :)

"Would have". And yes, good ole' Bard would have made the same efforts to land the company. You should know, good businesses choose a site based on long term needs, not short term slush fund payoffs.

Brad Henry did little to help Oklahoma's economy, unemployment was sky high in his day and jobs were fleeing the state many jobs went to Texas. Brad Henry had nothing to lure in Macys, or any other company- his administration was not friendly toward business. Macys would of gone elsewhere. I'm just sayin'. :-X

Anyone who says the economy is bad is not involved in hiring people. Our company keeps growing and growing, and the manager pool keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Oklahoma & Tulsa are doing pretty darn good even with the national economy in the dumper, many states/cities still have double digit unemployment and the real unemployment number (the U-6 unemployment number) is much higher. California is in very bad shape.

Oklahoma has the 13th lowest unemployment in the nation.
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

But then, I am sure sauerkraut already knew that. He is some economic genius.

Love it.  And it occurs to me that a lot of careers, especially in OK, have been built on this very maxim.

I'm guessing you think you made a good post here that was insightful and repeatable. You didn't. Just sayin' don't make it so.

What leads you to believe that Brad Henry was not friendly towards business? Not what some website told you but what you actually know to be true. Do you think he could have been elected without the support of business friendly contributors? In a state dominated by oil interests?

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why the major oil companies left Tulsa to move to Texas, under the regimes of three different governors in the last two decades even though the industry remained rather strong nationwide? Was it Keating's fault, Brad's fault or Fallin's? Or is it..."thanks Obama".

And what was that sky high unemployment compared to the national rate at the time? You know, back before Obama turned the economy around and helped little Mary look good. Own any stocks during the Obama era?

Stop using other peoples words and think for yourself. Business is government....government is business. Failure to recognize that makes you a pawn, then you are more likely to say stupid stuff and people who have more knowledge belittle you.

Firstly, the agreement is for 1,020 FTEs with 367 actual full time employees, not 1,500 as was initially reported.

Does anyone actually know how much we are subsidizing these jobs? The original TW article spoke of $500,000 from Owasso, and a quick Google found this more recent report (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article_b9f9297e-9c1f-57e6-bc8d-277637a52329.html) that says Tulsa County is forgoing about $8.75 million in property tax and the state somewhat less, with total incentives around $21 million. Is that really everything, or are there incentives not being fully disclosed as there have been with other projects elsewhere in the state? What is the total projected payroll (not the BS "total economic impact," which is necessarily lower than a locally owned business hiring 1020 FTEs at the same wage) and how does that compare to the total subsidies?

Is there a clawback provision in case they decide to close up shop early or choose not to hire the agreed upon number of employees?

And one last, more philosophical, question: Should we really be making Macy's competitors (and everyone else in the state) subsidize their business? To the tune of over $20,000 per job?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see more jobs in the area, I'm just not happy about handing out bribes to get them, especially when they are of the low skill and relatively low wage variety. We should have some sense of self worth and limit our bribes to those bringing jobs with a wage higher than our current average, not lower.

P.S. It costs money to provide services to this distribution center. It costs money to rebuild and maintain the roads that the trucks will use. It costs money to provide police and fire protection. The costs the rest of us bear are not small, so this is just epically stupid:

Or maybe he's right and the county doesn't actually do jack smile in exchange for all the tax money we send them, in which case yeah, the county isn't out anything. Way to look at the big picture, bud.

This is what states and communities are doing all over the country, in order to compete you have to compete on a level playing field.  This is what economic development funds are for: bring new jobs to the area.  Is this the type of job we want to land? It’s not high tech nor the highest paying, however, there are people who will do this work and spend their paycheck throughout the community.  Really not bad pay for someone right out of high school who doesn’t know what they want to do with their life yet or as a second household income.

It's an economic reality because if the incentives aren't offered here, they'll surely be available somewhere else. Yet you have to wonder why a politician offering a businessman money is an "incentive" but when the positions are reversed it's called a "bribe."

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

I read that as 367 full time people and another 1,020 FTEs or a total of 1,387 FTEs. Am I wrong there?

My guess is that the 367 are management, facilities, HR, IT/IS and other professional support function and the 1,020 FTE are the $10.50 an hour flunkies that pull crap off of shelves and package it for delivery.

My large concern is with how long those 1,020 will be needed. As robotics get better and cheaper these are jobs that will be probably be permanently eliminated over the next 5-10 years. And then a related portion of the 367 support and management staff. A near future automated warehouse like this would probably have less than 100 employees, if that many.

This is my concern for our economy as a whole. We are on the verge of automation ending a huge percentage of our jobs in the near future. Warehouse people and delivery drivers being prime positions to disappear. What are we going to do when many millions of fewer jobs are needed?

Jeff Bezos is already talking about automated delivery using drones to deliver packages to your door for Amazon within 30 minutes of the time when you make the order. That model could kill almost every retail job there is. Which is of course his plan. This warehouse is part of Macy’s attempt to compete with Amazon. As Amazon automates, Macy's will have to as well.

If you are going to do economic incentives, I would think the bigger bang for your buck would be for them to go to local companies headquartered here.  That way you not only get the wages of the "general workers", but more of the higher paying executive/creative wages, and profits, corporate donations/largess, deeper interest in improving the community, etc.  Also it would help those companies potentially expand to other areas of the country and world, and thus funnel money from those areas back to Tulsa.  

I of course with a small retail business see how being a bigger company can afford you all kinds of benefits.  Larger buying power alone gives them a competitive edge.  And that's fine.  I hope to create a big company here in Tulsa someday.  So then the first thought I have is, if they have X amount of dollars say to use as economic incentives (though I realize that's not "exactly how it work, essentially it is)… why not use that to help me the local guy, lots of local guys (and gals), create just as many if not more jobs here?  And ultimately have a greater economic benefit?  $20,000 per person… I will start opening businesses and hiring people here left and right lol.

No comment on the incentives part, as I'm in the "that's just how it works" camp.  Don't like it, but it is the way it is.

But with regard to the number of employees, automation, drones, etc., I can comment.   Distribution is what I do, and I've designed DC's, sold and installed automation and WMS software solutions, and consulted on these type facilities for virtually my entire career.  (I wish there was some way to get involved directly with Macy's on this one, but they use a competitor's product right now.)  I say all that just as validation to my opinion related to automation, etc.   Macy's (and this would be true for the majority of big-box Retail companies) is already on the cutting edge of automation and DC design, and whatever they go with will already have many of the latest operational improvements and efficiencies built-in.  I will be very interested in seeing what they install in this new facility, and specifically how automated it is.  Recent years have seen a trend away from fully-automated DCs (with huge automatic storage and retrieval installs and miles of conveyor) and back to a more semi-automated overall solution.  This type solution allows for more flexibility as the market forces and distribution demands change over time.  Based on the number of FTEs they are quoting it looks like they are doing some form of this hybrid approach, as a fully-automated DC would not require as many FTEs.

Even Amazon, who many (at least in the media) hold up as the new current bell-weather of distribution models, isn't fully automated.  Just a few years ago, they were so enamored with a new automation solution (Kiva systems) that they bought the company outright rather than purchase the product.  But while they continue to use the Kiva solution, they have not rolled it out to all their DCs, which says something about the overall move to fully-automated DCs in general. In particular, for their book distribution operations, heavy automation has not shown to be the best fit, as this picture of one of their DCs shows:  http://cdn.csgazette.biz/cache/r620-c4dc3f85ac8a540752321e2b3ef75991.jpg

Also, related to the drone delivery scenario,  don't hold your breath.  While the technology for an individual drone delivery may be close, any roll out of this offering to a large market is years away due to technical, and (more importantly) political and regulatory hurdles.  Instead,  look for a greater integration of direct-from-store shipping combined with tight integration with local delivery companies. (or, at least local facilities of national shippers)  Which is good for the local economy as well.

Every time I hear about fully automated distribution, I think of the giant mothballed baggage system the installed at Denver Int'l. Never did work right.

As for the drone delivery, when George works for Spacely Sprockets, and Jane doesn't have the flying car.

Incentives? Isn't that what brought Whirlpool to Tulsa almost 20 years ago? Just look at the ads NY State is running nationally about incentives.

A quick and dirty back of the envelop calculation shows that if you compare the tax subsidy cited here amounting to $20K per employee to the average annual wage of $21K (based on the $10.50/ hr for 1,020 employees), that leaves only $1K/ yr per employee to funnel back into the local economy.  Makes you go hmmm?

Nonetheless, I'd like to know what is the actual tax budern that Macy's would be responsible for after you subtract the over $9 million in incentives that it will recieve from TC, Owasso, and the state?  I didn't see an estimate of such an amount in the TW article.  Perhpas there isn't much if any balance remaining, but the taxpayers should know this information.

Oh good Lord that was a cluster...   I interviewed to go in and try and fix that, but didn't get the job, thank goodness. 

Interesting study of how and why DIA failed.

http://www5.in.tum.de/~huckle/DIABaggage.pdf (http://www5.in.tum.de/~huckle/DIABaggage.pdf)

+1

I still don't like the idea of forcing people to subsidize their competitors, but at least it's not bad for the community as a whole when it is a local company being supported. I'm not even against incentives as a whole. I do mind incentives on the scale that this deal has, though. $20,000 a job is ridiculous, especially when they don't pay much more than that. I'd rather offer 10 or 20 local startups looking for second or third round funding a million or two each. Even better if it was a revolving loan fund. Hell, spending $20 million on open access fiber would probably give us a better return.

When we blindly follow everybody else into a dark alley, we run the risk of ending up face down in said alley. And when we do things that underline how little ambition we have, we make it that much harder to attract the types of employers we really want.

Also, we're apparently paying to train their new employees (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article_9a5fc0ed-f520-5232-be84-ca7f8c791865.html) as well, which I don't believe is included in the $21 million.

Sheesh, 1500 jobs coming to the area and there are criticisms about it. Nate, how many jobs are you creating this year? How many have you ever created?

Guido, I believe the debate is centered on the tax payers subsidizing those jobs.  If you gave me $21,000,000 I could easily create some jobs.  The debate is fair. At $10 an hour mostly part time the jobs will largely be occupied by people who qualify for government assistance ($15k a year).  If we had 10000 such jobs pop up it probably wouldn't actually help the overall standard of living in our community.

Dillard's operates 2 stores in Tulsa and via rent, pays property tax.  They are being forced to subsidies Macy's new distribution center.

Im not saying we got q good deal or we got hosed, but Since when is extorting tax payers a conservative ideal?  The tax extortion racket needs to be shut down at the federal level. It is a form of bribery and is a zero sum game for US taxpayers.

I thought earlier in this thread the average hourly for this facility was going to be $15/hr or $30K/yr.

367 jobs at $60k per year plus 1020 FTEs at $10.50 per hour ($22k per year) averages out to $15.35 per hour.

They aren't giving Macy's $21MM.  They are not charging them for $21MM in taxes they would normally have to pay.  Big difference in my opinion.

What's the difference? Either way they will have $19 million(ish) at the state's expense and another couple of million from other government entities in the area.

Or they could have selected TEXAS that way you'd never have to worry about the incentives granted or the jobs generated or the long term increased tax base for that matter... incentives are how the game has been played for many years, don't like the game, great then change the rules (I'm all for that) for everyone but in the meantime it's long overdue that we finally fielded a team with a chance and it looks to me like they scrathed a pretty good win.  All my personal opinion of course.

Once again, claims are being made with no supporting evidence. Show your work. What will the total cost of having this facility here, including incentive payments, and how much will it bring in? Is the net more or less than plowing $20 million into local businesses? If the wages are low enough, it will be a net drain on our economy, as most Wal-Marts are. Uncritically assuming that any and all development is good and any and all jobs are good is a large part of how the has-been cities of our nation got where they are. We're also assuming they won't pack up and move to Coffeyville as soon as the incentives expire, or even before if they're offered more elsewhere.

It's also philosophically repugnant to me that we force existing local businesses to subsidize their larger competitors, thus shipping their tax money out of state, but that's a completely separate question from whether or not these kinds of deals make financial sense.

That is my point, they aren't "plowing" anything into the business.  You can't loan or invest money in something without the money to invest.  The public sector via the tax payer isn't putting money directly into the deal.  They are forgiving future tax revenue.  This happens with local companies regularly, though programs like the V2025 revolving housing fund, payroll tax rebates from the state, etc.

Forgive my future tax revenue and I will hire more people too.  Except I am a local company so there will be larger benefits, and you just gave my out of state competitor an edge cause I will still be paying my "future tax revenue" and have to account for that as I invest and move forward. Not saying, don't do it, just saying, "Why not me? lol".

I think that whatever unfair tax advantage one national retailer may over a competitor in one state is likely to be offset to their advantage in the form of similar incentives in another.  It would stand to reason that Dillards has recieved some similar tax advantages over Macy's in states where they have distribution centers and Macy's has only retail outlets.  So no crocodile tears from or for Dillards. 

Some retailers (Nordstrom, Von Maur, Cotsco, and I bet Dillards and Macy's too) are receiving TIF and/ or other advantages for opening retail stores that provide far fewer jobs and community economic benefits.  Now one could more seriously argue that it's not fair for them to receive benefits over competitors that may even reside in the same mall or center.   

Is that what's been reported or are we all still speculating?

Again, I'm not arguing that we necessarily got a bad deal - but Vision 2025 makes a great point:

Fear mongering works. 

Same as every car salesmen or other high pressure BS tactic.  If you don't do it, someone else will! ZOMG!  Texas!

Someone "wins" every auction. Sometimes the "winner" over paid grossly and a rival sits smug in "defeat.". We need someone to make sure we aren't that kind of winner.

May not be happening.
The department store operator said Wednesday that it was laying off 2,500 workers and closing five stores. The company is also consolidating its regional management and restructuring its retail and merchandise planning staff.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/08/news/companies/macys-job-cuts/

Perhaps a Tulsa dist center is part of the restructure?  Hopeful.

I’d heard the story on KRMG and the reporter questioning whether or not it could affect their expansion to Tulsa apparently didn’t read the entire report before saying that on air.  

Reading KRMG’s link, the TDC actually fits the business model of what they are doing in trimming down their brick and mortar costs by closing under-performing units while investing more in on-line retail.


http://www.krmg.com/ap/ap/business/macys-cutting-2500-jobs-in-reorganization/ncgYF/

I did some asking around and the word I'm getting is that all these changes and cuts are well planned out and are part of a corporate-wide restructuring that aligns well with the addition of the new TDC.   I may get a chance to speak to Macy's directly early next month, and I'll post any relevant info.  Also, in terms of market forces driving Macy's (and all Retail) to an Omni-Channel distribution model,  this is a decent quick-read article from Aug 2012:

http://apparel.edgl.com/case-studies/Macy-s-Omni-channel-Strategy-on-the-Move80122

There are programs in Oklahoma, such as the Jobs Programs, that provide financial rewards to existing companies for hiring more employees.  Additionally, there are many state programs that help with technology and research issues, etc.  The numbers may not be as eye popping or grab headlines the way landing a new company does, but they exist nonetheless.

Keep in mind the people the national chain will employ will spread that money throughout the local economy and possibly through your cash register. They can do so at a much faster rate than local businesses hiring one or two people here and there.

I'm kinda with the Artist on this one.  If a city or state wants to incentivize businesses to come here they ought to do so by providing across the board benefits. If a tax break is going to get Macy's to come, why not extend that break to everyone and watch everyone benefit?

How many other large companies would move to Tulsa if they received the same benefits we are extending to Macy's?  Even better, how many SMALL businesses would move to Tulsa or incubate in Tulsa if they had those same incentives?

It's unfair for a community to say "I'm going to tax you less because you are so big."  It's also insulting to the very people that are working hard to support that community.

 

I understand the points you two make and agree it would be nice to see more incentives for small businesses.  However, it almost seems as if no one recognizes that a sudden up-tick of 1500 jobs brings a large economic impact and imports money to our economy from every other state that someone like a Macy’s serves.  There is very little doubt that many locally-owned businesses will benefit from the construction and operation of the MDC.

I think the nature of corporate incentives sucks completely.  How do you change the nature of corporations to gravitate toward economic incentives thrown at them?  Until you can change that dynamic, it’s what is required to play on a national level.  We need a mix of local as well as national employers and there are incentives for local businesses like the quality jobs act (or whatever the proper name is), if a local company were looking at adding 1000 jobs and a huge new center, I’m quite certain there would be incentive funding on real estate taxes and infrastructure improvements.  I don’t believe this is reserved simply for national chains.

Simply handing out $20,000 per small business (absurd example, but just illustrating a point) so that they may or may not provide quality jobs is a very questionable investment.

Kinda like what NY is doing..


http://startup-ny.com

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Who's damned fault is this?


http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/aerospace/tulsa-s-bizjet-international-sales-support-to-hire-up-to/article_5425c256-a0a6-11e3-884c-0017a43b2370.html

I know, these are crappy jobs that will go unfilled because Tulsans are too good for that sort of work.  ::)  But I am happy to see this.

The $5.7 million?  Commies

I know. More freakin corporate welfare.

$23,000 government subsidy for every job.  

Tell me more about small government, welfare reform, and how corporations make it on their own (id est, without help from government).

Again, not necessarily against the handout - it make make sense.  But every actual tax payer in the state just hand Lufthansa a few dollars.  It would be interest to see if we spend more on education or handouts, tax breaks, and corporate subsidies.  Counting state, county and city.

That said - Bizjet is a fine company. Ive heard good things about their new boss man in Tulsa.

I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning.  I can't figure out who is being sarcastic and who is actually against this.

Do I read correctly that this is a tax abatement, not a direct payment?  So we're talking we're talking a decrease in the upside tax revenue, with no possibility of an actual decrease in actual taxes, correct?

Whatever that is.   Are these incentives ever cutting a check?  Aren't they always tax cuts/rebates, tifs, etc?  Either way, their cost of doing business is decreased by $5.7 million

Employers pay a tax to the state on every employee.  The program allows them to get a portion of or all of that back in the form a rebate.  But, they have to have the employees on the books, have to pay the tax and then request the rebate.  Not that dissimilar to you buying a "Free" item for $29.99 + tax from a Best Buy then sending off a form and UPC codes, etc to the manufacturer and getting a check back for the cost of the item not including the sales tax.

Does it really matter whether we're cutting a check or foregoing revenue that would otherwise be collected? The net effect is the same either way.

I understand the concern of some on here related to the perceived unfairness of these type incentives, and that greater argument is much more broad than I want to wade into.   But there is a difference in cutting a check up-front and forgoing possible future tax revenue.  An up-front investment by the city or state to attract a company and/or the related jobs is a very active position involving money that the govt entity already has.  It is an active "let us give you money to help you locate here" type of engagement.  Whereas a tax deferment (or rebate, or similar), while it is still a monetary incentive, is much more passive.  It requires the business entity to invest upfront, and only reap those deferment rewards when and if certain conditions are met.  (In this case, they actually add the jobs.)

In the first scenario, there is actual risk that current money will be lost.  In the second there is no risk of lost money, only the known percent reduction in possible future revenue, and is a much safer way to attract new business.   The question to be asked is are we "foregoing revenue that would otherwise be collected" if those jobs are never created?  If we think they would have added the jobs anyway, then the incentives leave money on the table.  If we think the jobs would have gone somewhere else, then the incentives are almost certainly justified. 

Presumably if we were to just write checks, they would still be contingent upon the receiving entity actually doing what they said they would do. FWIW, I don't think it's at all settled that it's even worth it knowing that jobs would depart in the absence of incentives. There is nothing stopping a company from taking the money, waiting until the 5 year period is up, and moving on. Happens all the time, actually.

I agree on the issue not being settled, and that is what I was referring to with regard to the various opinions on these types of incentives in general.  My question is, would Tulsa be better off having these 250 new jobs for five years, even with the incentives?  Or would the city be better off not having had them at all?  I realize it's not a 100% either/or, but that's the crux of the discussion.

Rebound -

My concern is that the jobs are not a zero sum game.  The company wants to hire 250 workers because those 250 workers will make them money.  Those jobs are not contingent on a governmental kickback.  The incentives are cities and states racing to the bottom to attract those jobs - and THAT race is a zero sum game.

And I'm not complaining about the incentives per se, because I realize under the current rules we have to play the game or we simply lose.  Particularly with an established company I'm probably OK with such rebates (as opposed to subsidizing BizJets competition to come and compete with them and steal their labor, while BizJet gets nothing having already been here).

My real concern is that we have no one really looking at the math to see if the incentives make sense.  No one is reviewing the process to see if the company has a way of screwing tax payers.  No one is checking to see if the incentives are actually bringing in jobs, or if they are just gravy being paid for by taxpayers to companies that would have hired people anyway (of course the companies are going to say they need them, just like the car dealer can't drop his price anymore without losing money).   There is a chance that every family in Oklahoma is being asked to hand $5 to BizJet for no real reason. 

We need to make sure the incentives make sense.  Overall, the system should be changed to limit corporate extortion of taxpayers. 

Macy's now says they will hire 1,500 at opening and will ramp up to a total of 5,000 jobs during the Christmas season and maintain 4,000 year round.

They may not be great paying jobs, but that's a lot of jobs.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage2/owasso-official-macy-s-could-hire-up-to-for-tulsa/article_e0a18cbb-c5b8-58ea-bbc3-032d77aca2b7.html

YES!

Indeed---  Thank you Mary Fallin! The only problem is I wonder  if we have enough workers in the area to fill 5,000 new jobs- Tulsa already has nearly full employment with a unemployment rate of 4.0%.. Mary Fallin brought Tulsa to much of a good thing. They say Macys will start hiring in July of 2015. I guess other big companies in the area will have to jack up their wages or risk loosing workers to Macys.. Whirlpool and the Bus Plant already have a hard time finding workers. This is how the free market works folks -get gov't out of the way and lower taxes and cut job killing regulations. Mary Fallin understands the workings of true conservatism. You don't see any companies flocking to blue democrat states do you? Michigan is still bleeding jobs after decades of democrat control.

It must also be remembered that with the 5,000 new Macy jobs there will be spin off jobs, more restaurants, perhaps another QT for the workers and more services. This is really great news for Tulsa! :)

I'm sure this is all due to her inviting the Black Mass to Oklahoma.

That's funny. If you ask experts, it seems most of the country is doing well on job growth. Why do you give Mary Fallin all the credit and and none to President Obama?

http://www.kiplinger.com/article/business/T019-C000-S005-economic-outlooks-by-state-2014.html

I think we all know the answer.

You are really Mary writing under a fake name. Am I right?

Or, he's an anonymous OHP trooper.

Which one. The choker or the killer?

Don't forget the serial rapist.

If only more people like you actually believed that.  Why aren't conservatives up in arms against the current restrictive zoning laws and regulations like, minimum parking requirements, set back requirements, height limits, laws against mixed use buildings (living over retail/restaurant, etc.) and mixed use areas, etc. etc.?  

Why are they trying to spend millions and millions on repairing a crumbling capitol building when they could spend less on a more efficient, not to mention energy efficient, office building instead? Hardly find that "true" conservative.

Just more of those pesky inconsistencies of the extreme right.

So, low paying jobs are great, huh?  Just like I have said in the past....R versus D.


So, we get 5,000 low paying jobs.  To support a department store with wages in the $8 to 10 an hour.  Let's go with $10 just to cut them some slack.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Macy-s-Hourly-Pay-E1079.htm


Let's compare to Costco, shall we?  Those 5,000 jobs would be the equivalent benefit of less than half that number of Costco jobs.  So if you look at how many Costco jobs there are per store (it comes out to about 270 - based on 174,000 employees for about 650 stores), you could get the entire Macy's benefit - which is about 1,000 high for the long term.  18 Costco's in the state would go blowing by Macy's like it was sitting still.  Not only are the employees much better off - by two to one - the state is much better off due to everything from higher tax revenues to much reduced aid and subsidized costs like SNAP, welfare, etc.  It is the reality the RWRE doesn't want you to know about.

"You're doing fine Oklahoma....Oklahoma is just ok...."

The problem with your assumption is that neither Tulsa nor OKC can support more than two Costcos so there’s no relevance to your point.  Secondly, an order fulfillment center pays wages which are new money to the economy, not recirculated money like a local retail point such as Costco.  Finally, starting wage for seasonal employees (read: temporary, not destination jobs) is claimed to be around $10.50/hr by Macy’s president for logistics.  

Let’s not presume that the majority of jobs in either case is only entry level.  Macy’s also offers health and dental for full time employees and I would assume a 401K.  Costco’s starting wages are around $11.50 per hour.  That’s an average compiled nation-wide including states with higher COL than Tulsa.  I don’t suspect Costco will offer the same starting wage to an employee in Tulsa as it would to one in Irvine, Ca.

There’s also an uptick for someone currently working at Braum’s for minimum wage to improve their income.  Certainly the center doesn’t offer pay which would attract me now, but it’s definitely the sort of work I would have sought out when I was studying at TCC, or possibly even joining the management track after I was done with school.  

But I guess if someone wants to mine only negatives from new money coming to the area, that’s your prerogative.

Obama destroys jobs his liberal policy is what killed our national economy, he's the "food stamp president". Obama's EPA kills investments and company  expansions costing jobs, high fuel costs also hurt the economy since half of our  paychecks go for gasoline and heating fuel people have little money left over to buy goods and services. When Bush left office gasoline was $1.70 a gallon, when Obama took control gasoline shot up over $3.00 a gallon and the national average never fell below the $3.00 a gallon mark. ObamaCare also destroys the economy & jobs. The open border of Obama's gives jobs to illegal aliens and drives down wages..  I'm a working stiff who punchs a time clock for a living and a strong conservative. We need someone like Mary Fallin in the white house to get our national economy back on track. Sarah Palin would also make a good president we need a solid "T" Party president. Yeah I'm a right winger. :)

I had something all typed out until I realized who I was responding to.  I figured this would work better.

(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130815124007/transformers-legends/images/c/c4/Triple-facepalm.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/z91mOkQ.png)
sourced from http://www.GasBuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?city1=USA%20Average&city2=&city3=&crude=y&tme=132&units=us, with 2 background colors added by me

Clearly Obama was the one that drove crude oil and gas prices to record highs.

What is incorrect about what I said? We do have a record number of people on food stamps under Obama, we have 92 million people unemployed, The national average of gasoline never fell below $3.00 a gallon while  'Bama was in the whitehouse. High taxes, 'BamaCare, EPA regulations are chasing companies overseas, Burger King moved to Canada because of high taxes. The national economy is grim. The U-6 true  unemployment rate is around 14%. Triple face palm  for Obama.

Thanks to Obama's EPA and his war on coal & oil our Electric bills are going up & up. Two more years till he's gone and I can't wait!

Then source all of that rather than blathering on.  You know how to copy and paste, don't you cabbage?

And gas prices?  Did you even look at the chart?  Or did you forget Chart Reading 101 in grammar school?

No wonder Oklahoma is nearly dead last in many categories with blathering idiots like you.  Jeez.

You should use the Google and type in Guffy Coal Act of 1935 and the Clean Air Act of 1977.

The link I included had the ranges for Macy's....


Ok, then let's get the 4 Costco's (1080 people with benefits) and throw in some In & Out Burgers.  Their average wage is about $15 an hour....50% more than Macy's.  Would take a few more stores, but same logic - the better paying jobs are better for Oklahoma AND the people living here AND the people working for those higher wages.

But that doesn't follow "The Script"...

We don't need more service jobs that are serving local people that have money.  We need more jobs where the money is coming from the outside and staying here in the form of wages and tax dollars!

As RDJ understands, more retailers only recirculate local dollars and cannibalize sales income from other competitors in the marketplace.  A distribution center which ships orders coming in from all over the nation and pays up to 4000-5000 people’s wages is all new money to the local economy with the exception of orders fulfilled and shipped to the local marketplace.

Jobs like this help create the opportunity for In-and-Out Burger to locate here or for a Costco in north Tulsa or Owasso.

As well, you keep conflating the wages of Macy’s retail store employees from Glassdoor with distribution center employees.  Macy’s claims the DC employees will be paid more.

No one really is sure what the wages will be I heard all kinds of numbers tossed around,  but it's likely nearby places like Whirlpool who has trouble finding enough workers as it is will have to raise their pay to keep their current work force from fleeing to Macys, the same goes for the Bus Plant that pays around $17.00 an hour top scale, My guess is Macys will be starting off at about $14.00 or $15.00 an hour to attract & keep workers, part time and seasonal workers may get paid a bit less. None the less this is a very good thing for Tulsa, The Governor made an outstanding deal to get Macys to come to Oklahoma and pass up 4 other states. Macys could of gone to Texas. If we had a democrat governor we never would of got Macys, in fact Oklahoma would likely be loosing jobs and our unemployment rate would be like it was when Henry was in power. Macys is not the only jobs that came to Tulsa in the past few years either, plus many current companies are expanding and adding jobs. :)

If they've prescribed medication, you should take it.

Going with the (generally liberal) thought that there is a finite supply of money, we will have to steal any new money from someone/somewhere else. 

Did you read what you wrote....Macy's IS a retailer, and coming to town is pretty much identical to both Costco and In-And-Out Burgers.  (Reference: Miracle on 23rd Street for one small part of Macy's story...)

DC employees are on that list.  Warehouse associates $11 an hour average.  Receiving associates about $8 an hour average.

I didn't Macy's would have a retail storefront in this warehouse.  If Costco brings a distribution warehouse to the state let's have this conversation.

Heir, this is earth.  Have we met?

What is so difficult to discern between a brick and mortar retail outlet which is open to the local public vs. a center which will fulfill orders for customers who primarily live away from this  area?  This is an Amazon type e-storefront.

Put down the lead paint chips, man!  ;D

Supply Chain and Distribution is my gig, so I probably like the minutiae of this topic more than most, but the recent comments related to a retail store versus a DC are really interesting to me.   Just on the surface, a Macy's store and a Costo store are simply not equivalent.  Macy's is a non-grocery traditional retail outlet, with smaller stores, etc, and Costco is a bulk-type storefront.  Closer to a distribution center than a traditional retail store.

Even in store numbers, it's not the same.  Macy's has something like 800 stores in the US, while Costco only has about 400, or roughly half.  Of course, the Costco stores are much larger, employ more people, etc.   But this difference in store size and numbers, as well as industry dynamics like the continuing Omni-channel evolution,  dramatically changes the nature of the distribution network. 

Macy's has nine major DC locations in the US,  which is a small number for such a large store network.  But they are heavily investing in omni-channel, and are rapidly converting retail stores to fulfillment centers as well  (500 stores acting as fulfillment centers is the current estimate) and or so are reducing the overall number of regional DCs, while at the same time making the existing DCs larger.

What does that mean related to Macy's stores and DCs? Basically, it means Macy's can much more easily add and remove stores (or change locations, etc...), but it is much more difficult and costly to change their DC network.  In short, given that Macy's is actually reducing their net number of DCs nationally,  we were fortunate to get chosen, and it is going to be here for quite a while.  (And I  don't care who gets credit for it, it's a great thing for jobs in the community.)

I was not as familiar with Costco's network, and found this article that does a pretty good job of laying out some basic facts:

http://distributioncenterjobs.net/dc/costco-distribution-center-jobs/

Some details I found interesting:

 - "each retail store employs more people than a Depot" (which makes sense given the size of the stores, but I never would have guessed that)
 - Costco only has 12 DCs in the US
 - "a level of employee satisfaction well above average, and the same anonymous feedback reveals that 90% “approve of” CEO"
 - Average wage for a Power Equipment Operator is $13.07 per hour, with reports varying from a low of $13 to a high of $14 per hour.
 - Average wage for  a Order Picker is $11.17 per hour, with reports varying from a low of $11 to a high of $13 per hour.

So what does this mean for Tulsa, and what could be realistically expected?  I few conclusions:

- We were lucky to get the Macy's DC.  It will be here for quite a while and provide good jobs.
- Additional Macy's stores are fine, but not as attractive as getting their DC.
- Given the distribution network, a Costco DC is probably not in the cards for us.
- But, given the employment opportunities, etc,  getting one or two (or more) Costco stores in  OK would be very beneficial (much better than additional Macy's stores), and is possible as well.

And again, I don't care who takes credit.

Rebound made a  interesting post. None the less the more companies and jobs our Governor can bring to Oklahoma the better it is for everyone in Oklahoma. Jobs also mean  health care coverage, some employers even offer dental & eye care. Oh yeah most jobs as standard practice even give ya  an Paycheck!

Pause in the action for a comment or two and a question or two....

Traditionally, a distribution center has been a place where the large retailer would receive goods from suppliers for a region, then disburse to retail stores in the region - a sort of a storage hub to simplify shipping actions.  With Sears and Monkey Ward being the most notable "mail order" fulfillment people that I have had familiarity with.

In recent history - probably what...the last 15 to 20 years or so?...everyone seems to be going to a more 'mixed mode' of DC - as a staging facility for store stock, and as an order fulfillment facility for "internet sales" (also whatever is left of mail order).   Even as recently as about 10 years ago, when I would deliver to a WalMart DC, there was only large trucks bringing stuff in from mfr/suppliers and large trucks taking stuff to individual stores - every visit to Wally was one of those two - bringing pillows from Bartlesville to Wisconsin or Michigan DC, or taking a mixed reefer load to a WalMart store (typical).  (Even Supercenters had the "feel" of a DC, just fewer docks and mix of drop and hook with trailer unload - did both.)   Fewer UPS or Fedex vans...as would be used for individual order fulfillment.

Places like Amazon in Coffeyville seem to be mostly the mail order fulfillment model with suppliers shipping bulk product to them, and they shipping out individual orders to customers.

And then there is all the 'blurring' of lines you touched on with the big box warehouse stores....




The above is my impression of what has been and what is now.... how far off is that?  Are the big guys splitting traditional DC from individual order fulfillment centers yet?

What do you supply and distribute?  (Just curious - no need to answer if too personal.)



 

Still...she hasn't brought anyone to Oklahoma.  In fact, her policies are actively discouraging companies from coming here.  Especially the ones that have insurance of any/all kinds.  And the lower the paycheck, the better for her!

Amazon is strictly online order fulfillment.  They have no terrestrial retail outlets.  The releases on Macy’s call this an e-order fulfillment center.  Regardless if it were simply collecting and disbursing to retail units, it’s all new money imported to the Tulsa area economy through payroll as well as future property taxes.  Simply opening a new big box recirculates the same money in the local economy and exports some to cover the salaries of the people at their distribution center in another city or state as well as corporate staff elsewhere.

I agree, I dislike giving places like this public money, but it is the game as it's played today between cities.

Giving money to big box stores to locate in Tulsa is stupid and gains us nothing.

Amazon uses a small part of the Coffeyville place as a kind of depot or hub, too - or used to.  There was some intercompany interchange going on.  But online order fulfillment is what they are all about.  That's kinda (exactly) what I said.....

In the context of big boxes and online DC's, the movement of money is what makes economic activity happen.  A new big box is exactly the same "movement of money" event that online ordering is.  Someone in the box is paid a salary - that money is the same as the person in the DC getting paid a salary.  And rent, utilities, misc. for the care and feeding of those boxes.  All the rest of the money goes elsewhere.  Neither Macy's nor any of the big boxes are located here beyond a satellite presence.

I don’t know why I’m even bothering, but one last time.  First graphic, left pie chart illustrates how much money stays in the local economy when you open a new big box store (completely unrelated to the current topic, it also makes a good case for shopping local):

(http://www.amiba.net/assets/images/Images/local-vs-natl-econ-return-for-web.jpg)

Now, here’s the economic impact of a regional DC to the local/regional economy:



The point being, whether it’s a DC, auto manufacturer, call center, etc.  It imports new money to the local economy, whereas new retailers rely largely on recirculating existing money in the local economy.  Then they ship off the profits to their out of state corp. HQ, pay their out of state vendors and supply chain with money taken from our local economy.

It’s the same reason trade deficits are bad.  More money is taken from the U.S. economy than is brought in from outside sources.

And finally, while doing some reading, I came across an article when the new employment figure was 1500 plus seasonal employees, the economic impact was estimated at $800 million over ten years.  Now that figure may be closer to 4000 permanent jobs, well, do the math.

I don’t see a Costco being anywhere close to generating that sort of economic impact.

So, you are saying Macy's is somehow a local independent, while Big Box, Inc is a chain retailer...

Ok...if you think so.... I really wanna hear the explanation on how THAT works!  Do tell....

Um no.  I told you to focus on the left graphic to point out how little money remains in the local economy from a big box store.

Then compare it to the article posted below which states 50 to 75 cents of every new payroll dollar created by a DC adds an additional 50 to 75% income to the area.

Certainly you cannot be that dense.  Now explain exactly how Costco brings new $$$ to the local economy....

Your pictures say Independents.  How can you possibly think Macy's is an independent entity in this region??  It IS a "big box entity".  It's all about the 'parsing'....  (splitting things up and picking and choosing what to analyze).


"The point being, whether it’s a DC, auto manufacturer, call center, etc.  It imports new money to the local economy, whereas new retailers rely largely on recirculating existing money in the local economy.  Then they ship off the profits to their out of state corp. HQ, pay their out of state vendors and supply chain with money taken from our local economy."

Yes.  And that is the Macy's impact as well as Costco.

And the article says;
"With VW, you get assembly jobs and you get supplier firms," Murray said. "You don't get that with Amazon."

Amazon is interchangeable with Macy's in that sentence.  Even the guy writing the article, with the above comment, says that DC's really are all about the big box thing, even if he was trying to make some other point.  WAG'-ing it.  (Wild A$$ Guess).




Local is always my first choice if possible.  And the smaller the entity the better, also if possible.

Wow, I'm away for a few hours yesterday and there are so many good back and forth posts...   Again, this is the kind of topic (local and of immediate impact) that I come on here for.

Regarding what I supply and distribute,  I don't.  With the exception of my first job out of college (steel tubing in Sand Springs, 88-89), I have not been on the direct supply side.  My background is in material handling equipment (conveyors, etc)  and distribution facility design and optimization.  For the last two decades I've been on the software side, selling and implementing software for manufacturing, distribution, transportation, etc.  I currently cover NA for a large Supply Chain software house.

Your points above related to the changing operational modes of a DC are spot on, and are continuing to evolve.  DCs (ne'e Warehouses)  used to basically full-pallet/full-truck, in/out.  The advent of packaged WMS (warehouse management system) software in the 80's allowed for much more complex operations, including rise of the mixed-mode type facilities you note.  Later, TMS (transportation management system) software came along to optimize the actual distribution routes and added to the efficiency and complexity of of the supply/fulfillment chain.   Basically, as the software continued to improve it allowed business to offer increasingly complex services and distribution channels. 

(Side note, a product called "Logisticon" started in 1985 and was, I think, the first packaged WMS software product.  One of the founders of Logisticon is a friend of mine and likes to tell war stories of trying to get prospects to understand how a software solution could improve their old paper-based operations.  Today, no large fulfillment operation would consider operations without a WMS in place.  Times change.)   
 
But all the above changes were still basically "one-direction", i.e. the goods always flowed from supplier/mfg, to a large DC, to smaller DCs, then to stores or the end user.  There was very little cross-channel or reverse-channel shipping.  For example, once a product made it to a store, it was rarely if ever then shipped from that store to another store, or directly to a consumer.  That's where the Omni-Channel concept is changing the game, and it is specifically impactfull to box retail-type distribution like Macy's.   Effectively managing single-direction distribution is hard.  Effictively managing Omni-channel distribution is, well, really hard.  The improved software allows Macy's and companies like them to (in the case of Macy's) utilize 500 of their stores as fulfillment and mini-distribution centers, and avoid the extreme expense of building more DCs like they are in Owasso.  This is much more cost-effective, and allows them greater distribution flexibility, etc. 

There's a decent article in Supply Chain Digital from this past February that gives a good comparison of how warehouses and software have evolved over the years (starts on page six): http://www.supplychaindigital.com/magazines/14441

Related to the benefit of a store versus a DC.  The point I was trying to make is that, generally, a store employs fewer people and is much more easily moved or closed than a DC.  Macy's for example, could relatively easily decide to open a couple more stores in the greater Tulsa area.  Which is great, but the relative employment of those stores is low, and if the stores don't work out they can be just as easily shuttered.  That is not the case with the new DC. It employs a huge number of people and will be there for at least a decade or two.  So just on stability and critical mass, a DC is better than several stores.

But as I discussed earlier, a Costco store is kind of unique.  Costco (and related mega-box stores like Sam's) stores are so large that their attributes are more like a DC than a traditional retail store.  They employ more people, are more expensive to put in, and have a larger and more stable customer base such that they are more likely to remain in place for longer.   So again, it's hard to consider Macy's and Costco in the same argument, because even though they are both Retail, the makeup of their operations makes direct comparisons difficult.

Last thought, and I'm out.  The comments around the monetary flow with a store are valid, although I'm not convinced they are of practical difference.  A store sells product directly to the immediate community.  Most of that (sales) money does not stay local, as the vast majority is taken up in operating expenses of the store and greater retail chain.  The only real money that is generated locally by a store is the wages of the direct employees, which is a small percentage of the sales revenue.  For a DC there are (generally) no local sales, and so there is no net outflow of local dollars.  The presence of a DC only results in a net inflow of money, in the form of local wages and locally sourced support services.  So the immediate conclusion is that a  DC is much better than a store.  But the argument against the store supposes that the store sales are a net increase in the overall local monetary outflow. (i.e., Macy's sales are "new" sales that would not have gone to some other retail outlet if Macy's doesn't exist in the area.)  I don't think this is fair assumption, and instead most of these sales (the money that leaves) would have occurred anyway, just somewhere else.  So if Macy's or any other retailer adds a store locally,  my gut says that the overall effect would be a net increase in the local economy.  Not nearly, of course, as much increase as a DC, but an increase none-the-less.   So stores are not a bad thing, either.

The new DISTRIBUTION CENTER Macy's is opening WILL NOT have a retail storefront for LOCAL customers to visit and buy from.  It will employ thousands of people to ship product to other cities and states, unless a LOCAL person were to buy an item from the Macy's website or catalog.  It is a NON-RETAIL STOREFRONT for a RETAIL ENTITY.  A Costco store is a RETAIL STOREFRONT for a RETAIL ENTITY.  Big difference!

I'm now convinced we are all being trolled.

Agreed.  Heir enjoys being a crank.  Either that or he needs ritalin...stat.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/1e/1ef0fa3a0e3abf11cf2d2e4e3c7bcd32b3dbf7692de2165fda6ae46833a8f419.jpg)

Where is the the trolling?   There is some inability to discern, or possibly accept, the difference between store impact and DC impact, but I don't see any real trolling.   But maybe I'm just a nice guy  :)

I think rdj needs to focus...couldn't tell if he was responding to me, rebound or you... 


Costco can be a retail store and still have a lot of characteristics of a DC.  And can (and do) Sam's Club and even WalMart supercenters.  Probably the biggest visible way is response to online order fulfillment - which is done from a formal DC or from the retail location as a "you pick it up" at the store event.

Fewer differences every day.....actually, it may be more accurate to say there is more blurring of the lines between them everyday.

Mary Fallin fought off 3 or 4 other states who wanted to get Macys to go to their state. Then after she captured Macys for Oklahoma   she sat down with  Macys top dogs and CEO's and hammered out a deal. It was all over the news last year. Mary Fallin and  some other leaders worked out the game plan. Macys is not the only company the Governor brought to Oklahoma or Tulsa, in 2011 the Governor pulled in 500 jobs for Tulsa. The fact that Macys is here will force other area companies to raise their  wages to keep their workers from quitting and going to work at Macys. This is a very good thing. I am convinced that if Mary Fallin  lost the election and the democrat  became governor instead we would not have got in any new companies in Oklahoma, unemployment would still be 7 or 8% in Tulsa and Oklahoma. Governor Henry didn't do nothing for Oklahoma, companies were fleeing for Texas and they took their jobs along with them.

Source for that?

Are you secretly Mary Fallin?

The official press release never mentioned any actual meeting with the Governor. It says, The project represents a collaborative effort among partners that include the state of Oklahoma, the Tulsa Regional Chamber, the city of Owasso, the Owasso Land Trust, the Cherokee Nation, the Indian Nations Council of Governments and Tulsa Technology Center.

I was at the announcement and it appeared to me that the Macy's people met the governor for the first time. I am not saying that she shouldn't get some credit, but for you to act like she did this deal all by herself is a lie.

Yeah, almost as if she got on her knees and...

Nevermind.

Nah, the subject in question wasn't wearing a Trooper's hat.

Damn, Corkie, did you develop this crush years ago or recently?

(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o267/dastaylor/CrazyBodyguardGuy.jpg)

That's what I said the other day!!  How else could there be so much ignorant BS concentrated in one place!!????

Never know, she might keep one in her brief case to satisfy an old fetish.  “Here, try this on for, um, size...”

The governor pretty much hammered out the deal, it was also her pro-business attitudes and pro- tax cuts that attract business to Oklahoma in the first place. Let's face it do you really think if Governor Henry was still in office  we would of got Macys for Oklahoma? With Henry companies were moving to Texas -remember 2007? Without Governor Fallin and her pro-business administration Macys would be  building that new warehouse  in some other state right now, and Macys is not the only jobs or  companies  that came to Oklahoma or Tulsa in the past few years. Tulsa currently has full employment anyone in Tulsa who really wants a job can find one here. The unemployment rate is something like 3.5%. The economy is humming along. I give the governor credit for that.

Your acknowledgment of Henry stops at the “D” after his name.  Central Oklahoma Democrats would qualify as deeply conservative by any definition.  Most are generally fairly religious, pro life, pro gun, and fiscally conservative.  Henry signed the largest tax relief package in Oklahoma history in 2006 to the tune of $627 million.  That was a year after he signed another cut of $150 million.  Then house speaker Republican Todd Hiett called it “the most significant set of pro-growth policies ever passed in Oklahoma"


He also ushered in Worker’s Comp reform, an issue which was needed to help Oklahoma be more attractive to new employers.

http://newsok.com/henry-signs-workers-compensation-reform-measures/article/3468146

Here’s your other problem, your claims about Fallin’s job creation are complete falsehoods compared to the years under Henry.  Keep in mind, Henry also came into office at the tail end of a recession.  Oklahoma has long had the benefit over competing states due to our part in the energy industry.   Fallin's private sector growth doesn’t touch Henry’s.  Only once, during her tenure, have more than 80,000 new jobs been created.   Six out of eight years of Henry’s tenure, new private sector jobs was greater than 80,000 and approached 90,000 some years.  You do know how to read a graph, don’t you?

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Ok, Mary....whatever alcohol induced delusion you want to nurse.....enjoy!   Just stay off the roads!!

Macy's Warehouse Opens Tomorrow

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/macys-warehouse-opens-tomorrow (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/macys-warehouse-opens-tomorrow)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/large/public/201508/macy_s.jpg)

Boy, that Mary Failin’ sure did a bang up job getting those new warehouse jobs to T-Towne!  She should be running for president.

She should be at the door as they walk up.  Shaking their hands and congratulating them.  Each and every damned one of them.

As empty a gesture as this...

(http://kokh.images.worldnow.com/images/4520823_G.jpg)

Pushing those puppies out there, isn’t she?

I love that our capital building is in disrepair. A true symbol of our leadership.

A little surprised the quakes haven't finished the job.